Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bill Shamleffer on June 14, 2022, 06:25:44 AM
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The (British) Amateur Championship is underway at Royal Lytham.
They will be showing highlights on the R&A website and YouTube.
Last year they showed the full 38 holes live on YouTube.
(An INCREDIBLE match with the eventual winner overcoming a deficit of 9 down after 17 holes, and 4 down with 4 to play.)
In fact that full video is still available on YouTube if you want see all of Nairn.
https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship (https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship)
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They’ve also just announced the 2024 version at Ballyliffin… which is quite a coup for the club.
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They’ve also just announced the 2024 version at Ballyliffin… which is quite a coup for the club.
Wow! That's a surprise. Portmarnock hosting it (for their 125th celebration) was not so much of a shock, since they hosted it in 1949. Portmarnock also hosted the Irish Amateur Open Championship many times, so it has always been one of the major amateur venues, which many of the legendary amateurs of the past have played.
Would have been nice to include Rosapenna or Portsalon in the strokeplay qualifying (but a bit messy from a logistics point of view), but it's still great news.
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Is this significant that it is being held in the Republic? Any reason why they couldn't hold it at places like Lahinch or Ballybunion? And if the event can be held in the Republic of Ireland, any reason why it, or the Open Championship, can't be held on the continent?
edit - It appears that the event has been held in the Republic before. But my question still holds, why can't it be held on the continent?
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It has been held in the Republic before, twice at Portmarnock. But Portmarnock does have a rich history and connection with amateur golf and the establishment.
It does feel significant that it is being held at such a new club outside of the UK. Only 22 venues have held The Amateur to date and they are all of a certain age.
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Despite being in the Republic, Ballyliffin appears to be perhaps the most northerly golf course on the Island. Perhaps the Brain Trust at the R&A thought it was in Nornirn?
;D
F.
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I am a little surprised this tournament is being played the same week as the US Open, given that the winner of the 2021 Amateur Championship (if still an amateur) has an exemption into the US Open.
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I am a little surprised this tournament is being played the same week as the US Open, given that the winner of the 2021 Amateur Championship (if still an amateur) has an exemption into the US Open.
It’s interesting that the USGA dropped the requirement that the winner of the US Amateur remain an amateur, but didn’t do the same for the winner of the Amateur Championship.
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I am a little surprised this tournament is being played the same week as the US Open, given that the winner of the 2021 Amateur Championship (if still an amateur) has an exemption into the US Open.
Yes this has been happening for a few years now. Seems ridiculous. The champion having to choose between defending his title , if he's still an amateur, or playing in th US Open.
Does anyone know why they are played at the same time?
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I am a little surprised this tournament is being played the same week as the US Open, given that the winner of the 2021 Amateur Championship (if still an amateur) has an exemption into the US Open.
Likewise. Can't believe the USGA didn't move the date of their championship ;)
Niall
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Likewise. Can't believe the USGA didn't move the date of their championship ;)
Niall
Why the winking face?
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Live coverage today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzgvMAYdik (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzgvMAYdik)
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Yes this has been happening for a few years now. Seems ridiculous. The champion having to choose between defending his title , if he's still an amateur, or playing in th US Open.
Does anyone know why they are played at the same time?
It’s a shame for the champion, if he turns pro he’s very likely not to play in the US Open and obviously ineligible to defend. It also means the US amateur champion isn’t going to enter the Amateur Championship nor a host of other top amateurs who qualified for the US Open.
It’s a crowded calendar but it looks like the R&A need a date change.
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The US Open has been played between the period 10-20 June for quite some time now; I think since at least the late 1950s. The date moved quite a lot before then, sometimes being played in July and even August.
When did the Amateur Championship move its dates? Is it fairly recently? Bobby Jones would not be too happy.
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The (British) Amateur Championship is underway at Royal Lytham.
They will be showing highlights on the R&A website and YouTube.
Last year they showed the full 38 holes live on YouTube.
(An INCREDIBLE match with the eventual winner overcoming a deficit of 9 down after 17 holes, and 4 down with 4 to play.)
In fact that full video is still available on YouTube if you want see all of Nairn.
https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship (https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship)
Holding it the same week as the US Open and making the Champion choose seems ludicrous.
The best amateurs may well have qualified for the US Open and be forced to choose as well.
If the R&A can't see the wisdom in a date change, perhaps the USGA might revoke their US Open champion exemption to prod them along.
The US Open has been at its current date for a long time, and isn't going to move.
It's like an opposite field event for amateurs.
It used to be a major, and should be, but the dates does not help.
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The (British) Amateur Championship is underway at Royal Lytham.
They will be showing highlights on the R&A website and YouTube.
Last year they showed the full 38 holes live on YouTube.
(An INCREDIBLE match with the eventual winner overcoming a deficit of 9 down after 17 holes, and 4 down with 4 to play.)
In fact that full video is still available on YouTube if you want see all of Nairn.
https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship (https://www.randa.org/championships/the-amateur-championship)
Holding it the same week as the US Open and making the Champion choose seems ludicrous.
The best amateurs may well have qualified for the US Open and be forced to choose as well.
They always do things like that they are absolute idiots. I call them THE PICKLEHEADS they continually let championships clash, it means no amateur can win the Amateur Championship twice on the trot now as he is not going to pass a chance to play a major. When you meet these people you can't believe how stupid they are they and many are not even fit for putting lids on jars. The Seniors County Team Final that's Over 55s (for Amateurs) play 36 holes in the same day, how many 63 year olds can play 36, the kids at 19 don't even want to do it. South West week clashes with the day they suggest for Club Championships, so your best players don't play. AND HERES ANOTHER ARCHITECTURE LINKED IN order for a round of golf to count towards your handicap you must play with 10 yards of where the hole is measured from. So as most golf courses have tees more than 14 yards long the measured point is going to get very worn.
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I must confess to being a bit surprised by some of the reaction, particularly from Jeff and Adrian. While the Amateur is no longer a major, it certainly hasn't been reduced to a qualifier for the Open, US Open and Masters. Invites to those tournaments are wonderful perks of winning but it is the winning itself which is the real value. It's status comes from the tradition and it's place in the amateur game. I'll no doubt get shouted down for this but moving it about to accommodate another tournament, no matter how grand, seems to me to diminish it. And for what ? To accommodate less than a handful of players ?
Niall
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I must confess to being a bit surprised by some of the reaction, particularly from Jeff and Adrian. While the Amateur is no longer a major, it certainly hasn't been reduced to a qualifier for the Open, US Open and Masters. Invites to those tournaments are wonderful perks of winning but it is the winning itself which is the real value. It's status comes from the tradition and it's place in the amateur game. I'll no doubt get shouted down for this but moving it about to accommodate another tournament, no matter how grand, seems to me to diminish it. And for what ? To accommodate less than a handful of players ?
Niall
The Amateur and US Open clash has only recently happened. One of our members won it in 2020 Joe Long. I think it was the first time the Amateur got a US Open spot, so the first time the winner can't really defend his title. They also let it happen this year for the 2021 winner. they could switch the English Amateur with the British fairly easily or even flip with the Brabazon, ffs it's not exactly like trying to align six planets for solar tour.
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I might be wrong, but I remember similar whinging not that long ago, that The Amateur clashed with the end of the US College circuit, hence why it got moved.
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I must confess to being a bit surprised by some of the reaction, particularly from Jeff and Adrian. While the Amateur is no longer a major, it certainly hasn't been reduced to a qualifier for the Open, US Open and Masters. Invites to those tournaments are wonderful perks of winning but it is the winning itself which is the real value. It's status comes from the tradition and it's place in the amateur game. I'll no doubt get shouted down for this but moving it about to accommodate another tournament, no matter how grand, seems to me to diminish it. And for what ? To accommodate less than a handful of players ?
Niall
I don't think I'm shouting, but it would seem they would want the best amateurs available for "The Amateur".
I always felt the Amateur and the US Am should be majors, and they were till Tiger won three.
A date change would strengthen the field, whether they want to change the date is up to them.
But, the best supporting evidence I can think of is that the defending champion, Laird Shepherd, is playing...wait for it....in the US Open and skipping defending his title at The Amateur.
That is a pity, and sucks for him-and the event.
To be fair, he's turning pro after the US Open so a later date would've meant he couldn't defend anyway.
If the US amateur forced their champion to pick between the Open and defending, I'd certainly advocate for moving the US Am.
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Jeff
From a quick scan of wikipedia I see that the last multiple winner was Gary Wolstenholme who won in 2003 and prior to that 1991. You have to go back to the 1970's to find further multiple winners in Peter McEvoy, Dick Siderowf and Trevor Homer who all won twice and right at the start of the 70's Michael Bonnallack who won it 5 times.
Peter McEvoy did make the final again in 1987 but apart from that there doesn't appear to be any repeat finalists. I might be wrong in saying that but at any rate not having the defending champion doesn't seem to have significantly weakened the field. Of course the reason for that might be that the top amateurs tend to turn professional quite quickly but they will do that anyway.
Niall
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LIVE 🔴 | The 127th Amateur Championship Final
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxI7wlxuV8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxI7wlxuV8)
(If you can suffer Dougie Donnelly)
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Does seem daft to hold both events the same week.
Be interesting to see the age of all the entrants/qualifiers to this and other significant 'amateur' events and whether or not they've ultimately turned pro. And then see the same data for past years.
atb
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LIVE 🔴 | The 127th Amateur Championship Final
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxI7wlxuV8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxI7wlxuV8)
(If you can suffer Dougie Donnelly)
Watched a fair bit yesterday and watching it now. I'm loving the coverage. A lot of it is because they are staying with the one game (as you would in a final !) and you get to see all of the course from the perspective of the players.
As for Dougie, I like his chatty style. Not too chirpy, a bit laid back and happy to leave some space in between comments without feeling the need to constantly be saying something.
Niall
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Does seem daft to hold both events the same week.
Be interesting to see the age of all the entrants/qualifiers to this and other significant 'amateur' events and whether or not they've ultimately turned pro. And then see the same data for past years.
atb
In addition, the Sunnehanna Invitational is also this week. It regularly attracts a lot of the top college players in the US as well as some from the UK and Europe.
If the Amateur was moved, it might get a few more top US players over there also.
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From an article on the R&A website yesterday:
"As well as winning one of the most prestigious titles in the amateur game, the victor tomorrow can look forward to competing in The Open at St. Andrews next month, the 2023 US Open and, by tradition, an invitation to play in the Masters Tournament."
Clearly, the R&A knows the spoils that accrue to the victor of the Am. You would think they could do a better job of planning their tournament schedule so that the victor does not have to make a choice of which tournament to play in the following year.
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John
Are we seriously saying the R&A should move the Amateur Championship for the Sunnehanna (whatever that is) ? The golfing calendar is jammed packed especially during the summer months and there is always going to be clashes. The R&A runs a number of tournaments and have to make sure they don't clash with themselves.
David,
Did you really think the R&A were unaware that the Amateur champion was invited to those majors ?
Niall
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Jeff
From a quick scan of wikipedia I see that the last multiple winner was Gary Wolstenholme who won in 2003 and prior to that 1991. You have to go back to the 1970's to find further multiple winners in Peter McEvoy, Dick Siderowf and Trevor Homer who all won twice and right at the start of the 70's Michael Bonnallack who won it 5 times.
Peter McEvoy did make the final again in 1987 but apart from that there doesn't appear to be any repeat finalists. I might be wrong in saying that but at any rate not having the defending champion doesn't seem to have significantly weakened the field. Of course the reason for that might be that the top amateurs tend to turn professional quite quickly but they will do that anyway.
Niall
It certainly sucks for the winner to miss his week as defending champion and exemption to match play, and anyone who makes it to the US open skips the Amateur, so The Amateur field definitely loses some of its luster.
There certainly won't be anymore repeat winners given the schedule conflict, so your logic about the dearth of defenders is self fulfilling.
Very sad they have to pick between a US Open and defending.
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The final just finished with a young 17 year old South African by the name of Aldrich Potgieter winning 3&2 over Sam Bairstow after Potgieter being 7 up for most of the match. A very impressive performance and this young lad looks like he could be a world beater in a few years time. I also like the fact he's the antithesis of the tall rangy athletic type. ;D
As an aside another thing I loved about the coverage was a relative absence of statistics. Beyond commenting on whether they were hitting a driver, 3 wood or iron off the tee the commentators there was no analysis of what club they would be playing and I can't recall once hearing how far they had driven.
Niall
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"Did you really think the R&A were unaware that the Amateur champion was invited to those majors ?"
Niall -
Why do you ask such a question? Nothing in my post implies the R&A were unaware of this. I stated the R&A is clearly aware of this.
The question to ask is, why, knowing the Amateur receives this entry into the US Open, does the R&A choose to schedule the Amateur championship so that the winner will be forced to choose between defending his title or playing in the US Open.
DT
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If the Amateur was moved, it might get a few more top US players over there also.
::)
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The final just finished with a young 17 year old South African by the name of Aldrich Potgieter winning 3&2 over Sam Bairstow after Potgieter being 7 up for most of the match. A very impressive performance and this young lad looks like he could be a world beater in a few years time. I also like the fact he's the antithesis of the tall rangy athletic type. ;D
As an aside another thing I loved about the coverage was a relative absence of statistics. Beyond commenting on whether they were hitting a driver, 3 wood or iron off the tee the commentators there was no analysis of what club they would be playing and I can't recall once hearing how far they had driven.
Niall
Niall:
I agree, I watched last year's final and this year's final. I love the minimalist coverage. Also, good job of showing the course. The other nice thing is that this stays on YouTube. One can go back and watch this full match, or parts of it anytime on YouTube.
That was a fascinating final match to watch. I missed the 1st 18 (was not waking up at 3:30 am), but caught the last 16.
You are right, this young kid from South Africa, kind has a retro golfer look. He won't be borrowing any pants from Will Zalatoris. Maybe a little bit of a Bobby Locke look without the Plus-Fours.
JohnVDB & Brian Ewen:
No matter when they schedule this Championship, I highly doubt any top level college ams will want to play. The current summer am circuit that is dominated by the college golfers is too busy to give up 2-3 weeks just to play in the British Am. I think in the past when some US ams used to play, it was more often post-college ams.
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Likewise I really enjoyed watching the final on YouTube yesterday, which made a nice complement to the last day of Royal Ascot on ITV....amateur scheduling was problematic pre-COVID and is if anything even moreso in the aftermath. Even within the UK three of the major 72-hole amateur scratch events of the year, the Berkshire Trophy, the Tennant Cup (Glasgow) and the St David's Gold Cross, are taking place this weekend, so ruling out anybody taking part in the final stages of the Amateur itself - a far cry from the experience of Walker Cup players of a previous generation like (e.g.) Michael Lunt and David Marsh and Charlie Green.
That said, the field for the Amateur was truly international, with very strong continental European, Australian and South African representation: a young RSA squad have been here for five weeks, playing with great success in the big 'spring sweep' here which includes the Brabazon Trophy (effectively the amateur strokeplay championship, even though run by England Golf), the Lytham Trophy, the St Andrews Trophy, and the Amateur Championship.
Historically US representation in the (British) Amateur has always been strongest in UK-hosted Walker Cup years, and of course for many years the two events were deliberately dovetailed, on both sides of the Atlantic (ditto the Curtis Cup and the Ladies' Amateur). Next weekend we can all enjoy similar R&A coverage of the Ladies Amateur final stages from Hunstanton, which will give American friends an opportunity to watch golf on the only west-facing seaside links in the east of England. Enjoy...