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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_malone on June 09, 2022, 10:05:40 AM

Title: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: mike_malone on June 09, 2022, 10:05:40 AM
The cannon start is nice.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Robert Kimball on June 09, 2022, 10:08:10 AM
I was curious enough to see if it was available in US, but apparently not.  Not on cable at least. 


So, a true shotgun start, huh?  Interesting. . .
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: David_Tepper on June 09, 2022, 10:14:25 AM
Available live in the U.S. on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-exyLWw5pq8
 
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: mike_malone on June 09, 2022, 10:49:29 AM
On Liv’s site.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: cary lichtenstein on June 09, 2022, 11:23:57 AM
Mickelson needs to cut off the stubble on his face, he looks terrible. Why he is growing a beard is beyond me.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Brian_Ewen on June 09, 2022, 11:31:47 AM
I was really hoping for something different than a Poor Mans PGA Tour  :(
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Mark Smolens on June 09, 2022, 11:33:41 AM
"Poor Man's"? Oh the irony here on GCA...
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 09, 2022, 11:45:17 AM
   I suppose it’s stupid, but I feel I’d need a shower after I watched.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Niall C on June 09, 2022, 12:36:59 PM
Mickelson needs to cut off the stubble on his face, he looks terrible. Why he is growing a beard is beyond me.


Maybe it's an Arab thing  ;D
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Paul Jones on June 09, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
Watch (livgolf.com) (https://www.livgolf.com/watch)
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: MCirba on June 09, 2022, 12:57:17 PM

Couldn't find it by looking up the "Stihl Chainsaw Khashoggi Memorial Jamboree".  ::)

Getting in bed with the murderous Saudi regime and the treasonous former president of the United States is bad...no...evil juju.


Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Greg Clark on June 09, 2022, 01:00:14 PM
Watched it a bit.  Complete snoozefest.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Brian_Ewen on June 09, 2022, 01:11:45 PM
Su-Ann is not happy with the temperature LOL
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: PCCraig on June 09, 2022, 01:18:47 PM
Saudi money aside, I actually think they are doing a lot of interesting things.


I think there are going to be a ton more guys who take the money and join in Portland. Now that they've seen that the Majors aren't going to blackball players who play in LIV events, why wouldn't they take guaranteed money and a more relaxed schedule?


Let's be honest, 80% of PGA Tour events are super boring to watch and could benefit from some extra formatting. And winning all but ~4 non major event do nothing for a player's "legacy".


The PGA Tour's letter this morning was straight out of the Onion. Mocking players for only thinking about money when the Commissioner makes what, $10mln a year...running a "nonprofit" that just built some massive shrine HQ for itself?  ::) ::)


So, while I was really skeptical a couple of months ago, I actually think this might have some legs.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Bruce Katona on June 09, 2022, 01:26:54 PM
I had to turn it on just to see how the coverage is.......so far so good - I missed the cannon - Damn It!


The coverage and commentary reminds me more of the BBC covering The Open rather than US tv covering a Tour event.


Given this is their 1st go - passing grade +.


I have no illusions regarding the backers; there are far bigger problems in the world than oil money financing things.


If I believed it a good investment I would purchase oil stocks, shares in adult beverage companies, cigarette companies, green technology, auto makers, META,  etc.  Never was much of a social investment stalwart. 
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 09, 2022, 01:35:49 PM
I think there are going to be a ton more guys who take the money and join in Portland. Now that they've seen that the Majors aren't going to blackball players who play in LIV events, why wouldn't they take guaranteed money and a more relaxed schedule?
You don't know that "the majors" (all of them) aren't going to. The PGA and the Masters still could, and the U.S. Open could next year.

The PGA Tour's letter this morning was straight out of the Onion. Mocking players for only thinking about money when the Commissioner makes what, $10mln a year...running a "nonprofit" that just built some massive shrine HQ for itself?  ::) ::) 
It was bad, but at the same time… Commissioners make a lot of money.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/roger-goodells-astronomical-pay-revealed-nfl-commissioner-topped-125-million-over-past-two-years-combined/ (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/roger-goodells-astronomical-pay-revealed-nfl-commissioner-topped-125-million-over-past-two-years-combined/)
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Jim Hoak on June 09, 2022, 03:29:27 PM
As far as the  majors go--Some players qualify as past champs, etc.  But more get in from the World Ranking Points.  Let's see how that shakes out for these events.  May be much tougher for the average player to get into the majors.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Jim Sherma on June 09, 2022, 03:49:25 PM
The vast majority of players play for cash and not history. I’m sure a lot of single major guys would have gladly traded it for an 8 or 9 digit payout. Even more non major winners would happily take the money without the uncertainty of needing that one good week to lock in some legacy with a good cash out.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: JLahrman on June 09, 2022, 05:00:51 PM
Not watching, not really interested, but I am wondering if He Hate Me is in the field.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Pete_Pittock on June 09, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
S L O W.  Sixteen three-balls in the field and they took 4:48, or thereabouts. If they want to liven up golf, at least get it into secon d gear.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Matt_Cohn on June 09, 2022, 06:25:44 PM
It didn’t seem like it was very well watched; YouTube said 97K watching when I signed in halfway through. The telecast is OK. Overall it felt like watching the European tour on any Thursday morning. I don’t think it’s a great look that half of the field is at +3 or worse. Maybe it’s just a really strong test of golf over there, but ultimately there just aren’t that many of the world’s best players there at the moment. It certainly doesn’t make sense to make a judgment on some thing one day into the first event, but just watching today it was a hard to see anything special about it other than the amount of money they’re playing for. The team component comes across as very silly in my opinion.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 09, 2022, 06:39:59 PM
S L O W.  Sixteen three-balls in the field and they took 4:48, or thereabouts. If they want to liven up golf, at least get it into secon d gear.
Yeah, if they want to truly innovate… make the rounds 4:00 with penalty shots if you take longer than that. Plus, imagine the drama if one group of non-counting scorers holds up another group so that their team can win the team component.  :)

Every partial five minutes you're over four hours is two strokes. 4:00:01? Two strokes. 4:05:35? Four strokes. Get your butts in gear.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Pete_Pittock on June 09, 2022, 06:51:34 PM
and it should be LIV, which is roman numerals for 54, the number of holes played. By the way, since it is Saudi Arabia money, why aren't they using (western) arabic numbers, or require the players to record their scores using roman numerals ;D
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Edward Glidewell on June 09, 2022, 07:32:16 PM
Let's be honest, 80% of PGA Tour events are super boring to watch and could benefit from some extra formatting. And winning all but ~4 non major event do nothing for a player's "legacy".


I agree that most PGA Tour events are pretty boring, but the problem I have is that the LIV format seems even worse -- especially since there's no real pressure. They're basically playing in exhibitions; they've already gotten their money.


They'd have to start playing on excellent courses to get me to watch unless they do something more interesting with the format.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim Leahy on June 09, 2022, 07:38:47 PM
I didn't and won't watch but wondered if they are letting players wear shorts. I have always thought that was a dumb rule. Since honor has gone out the window, do the players still have to keep their own score and sign scorecards? ::)
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 09, 2022, 07:42:58 PM
Remember back when the golf world was enthralled by the chance a chubby Canuck might win his country’s Open. Did he ever win?
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 09, 2022, 07:43:13 PM
and it should be LIV, which is roman numerals for 54, the number of holes played. By the way, since it is Saudi Arabia money, why aren't they using (western) arabic numbers, or require the players to record their scores using roman numerals ;D


I do that sometimes. I put an X on my card!
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 09, 2022, 08:27:01 PM
Remember back when the golf world was enthralled by the chance a chubby Canuck might win his country’s Open. Did he ever win?
Moe Norman?
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 09, 2022, 08:51:13 PM
Remember back when the golf world was enthralled by the chance a chubby Canuck might win his country’s Open. Did he ever win?
Moe Norman?


I believe it was Dave Barr.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 09, 2022, 09:16:41 PM
Remember back when the golf world was enthralled by the chance a chubby Canuck might win his country’s Open. Did he ever win?
Moe Norman?


I believe it was Dave Barr.
Barr almost won your country’s Open, not his country’s Open. 1985 US Open at Oakland Hills. Mike Weir almost won the Canadian Open in 2004, he lost in a playoff to Vijay.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Steve Lang on June 10, 2022, 12:01:21 AM
 8)  SEEMS LIKE ALL THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE IN SHOTGUN TOONAMINTS WILL RELATE...  AND AREN'T THE PGA VENUES GENERALLY MANIPULATED TO MAKE THE FIELD LOOK GOOD OR BAD, THE LATTER DEALING WITH THE CUT...
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Kalen Braley on June 10, 2022, 10:18:38 AM
I guess i'm more interested in the longer game implications:

1)  Will non-established players be fine with not getting into majors or not playing bigger Tour events like Jacks tourney?

2)  Will better players be tempted to go back to the Tour once their major exemptions run out?

3)  Will the Saudis be OK with taking indefinite losses?  (I don't see how they will recoup anywhere near some of these alleged signing bonus amounts.)

4)  What kind of sponsorship, TV Deals can they make.  Certainly YouTube events are not the future...
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Jim Hoak on June 10, 2022, 10:43:34 AM
Kalen--Those are the key questions--and I'd add two more--


5)  Will the OWGR count these LIV tournaments for world ranking points?


6)  What will the Tours do when LIV players try to rejoin the established tours?

Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 10, 2022, 01:33:28 PM
What about those guys at the bottom of the PGA and Korn Ferry Tours. 10 worse golfers will earn their card next year. In ten years that’s 100 golfers. Tic Tok the tour is dead.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Edward Glidewell on June 10, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
5)  Will the OWGR count these LIV tournaments for world ranking points?


I think this is almost a moot point. Even if they do get ranking points, there won't be many available -- small fields without many highly ranked players -- and they only have 8 events. There's really no scenario in which these players don't quickly fall down the OWGR with those limitations.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: JohnVDB on June 11, 2022, 08:55:57 AM
What about those guys at the bottom of the PGA and Korn Ferry Tours. 10 worse golfers will earn their card next year. In ten years that’s 100 golfers. Tic Tok the tour is dead.


Maybe you’ll learn there are a hell of a lot of good to great players out there who just needed a chance.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 11, 2022, 09:13:29 AM
What about those guys at the bottom of the PGA and Korn Ferry Tours. 10 worse golfers will earn their card next year. In ten years that’s 100 golfers. Tic Tok the tour is dead.


Maybe you’ll learn there are a hell of a lot of good to great players out there who just needed a chance.


Stars become stars by winning. I've covered two major league splits: NHL vs. WHA and USAC vs. CART, which evolved into CART/Champ Car vs. IRL. Stars came out of both rogue groups (Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier in the WHA, Tony Stewart out of the IRL).
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Brian_Ewen on June 11, 2022, 10:13:45 AM

Stars become stars by winning. I've covered two major league splits: NHL vs. WHA and USAC vs. CART, which evolved into CART/Champ Car vs. IRL. Stars came out of both rogue groups (Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier in the WHA, Tony Stewart out of the IRL).

Yet another North American comparison point misser.







Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 11, 2022, 11:03:26 AM

Stars become stars by winning. I've covered two major league splits: NHL vs. WHA and USAC vs. CART, which evolved into CART/Champ Car vs. IRL. Stars came out of both rogue groups (Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier in the WHA, Tony Stewart out of the IRL).

Yet another North American comparison point misser.


Feel free to explain how.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Dave Doxey on June 11, 2022, 02:53:33 PM

I just finished watching on YouTube.   Coming in with an open mind and limited expectations, I was very impressed with the telecast.   What struck me was the almost continuous showing of golf shots.  As one who watches golf to see golf shots, I’d like to see the comparison of shots shown per hour between LIV and PGA Tour.  I’d bet that LIV had at least 3X the number of shots covered.  No commercial breaks, no fluff segments, no announcer babble, no 5 minutes wasted as the sponsor CEO said how glad his company was to dump money on the event and how great the course, weather, and fans were.  No minutes wasted as players paced around the fairway, stalked putts, stood across putt lines, read yardage books, or had long discussions with caddies.  No long musical lead-ins or taped segments on the local area.  Watching the packed progression of golf shots of all kinds, good and bad, was enjoyable.  PGA television can learn a lot in this area.


On the negative side, regardless of how much the announcers played it up, the team competition was a non event and added nothing to interest in the telecast.  Zero interest. I can’t imagine team competition remaining very long.


Other notes.  Shot tracking was used overly sparingly.  The leader board “pylon” was useful.  Drone shots used were helpful, as was the “player tracker” which showed where members of the threesome were located on the hole from above.  The announcers held back on chatter, allowing the video to account for itself.  Honest comments on shots, both good and bad.  No making excuses for the players.  Background sound was well managed, with no idiots yelling “bababoey”, “mashed potato” or “get in the hole” after every shot.  Lack of commercial interruptions was a joy, but I assume that they’ll creep in after TV contracts are in place.. 


I’m sure the LIV haters will find faults, but I’ll watch LIV over the standard Tour broadcast any day. 
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 11, 2022, 03:37:36 PM
   Would you be willing to pay to watch the show? Because, if not, you really have no standing to complain about commercials on free tv.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 11, 2022, 03:40:20 PM
Dave, I agree. A well-produced telecast that improved each day. LIV's TV advisor/consultant is David Hill, who created Fox Sports out of nothing, and the producer is Steve Biem, an old Fox hand who worked on some of their USGA shows, which improved year-to-year.


The only beef is the excess licking of the LIV's hind end. Too much promotion – no need, we're already watching. Su-Ann was all right on course reporting but doesn't know how to ask a question. Someone else is needed in that role. And Jerry Foltz diminishes his reputation by saying things like the fans love Patrick Reed. Uh, no.


Now, once they figure out how to improve the names on the leader board pylon, they'll have something.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 11, 2022, 03:43:36 PM
Was there a blimp?
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Dave Doxey on June 11, 2022, 04:25:39 PM
   Would you be willing to pay to watch the show? Because, if not, you really have no standing to complain about commercials on free tv.
I already pay to watch the Golf channel and networks on cable & satellite....AND I get hit with commercials.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Brian_Ewen on June 11, 2022, 04:30:40 PM
Feel free to explain how.


Geezo, is it not obvious?
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 11, 2022, 06:00:31 PM
Feel free to explain how.


Geezo, is it not obvious?


There are so many things to pick from with LIV Golf. Not sure which one(s) you're most opposed to. They may match mine or differ.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Mark Smolens on June 13, 2022, 10:13:50 PM
5)  Will the OWGR count these LIV tournaments for world ranking points?


I think this is almost a moot point. Even if they do get ranking points, there won't be many available -- small fields without many highly ranked players -- and they only have 8 events. There's really no scenario in which these players don't quickly fall down the OWGR with those limitations.


Didn't I read somewhere that a new tour has to demonstrate viability for a year before the OWGR will consider awarding points for their events? Will the LIV guys be willing to lose their standing/qualification for majors next season??
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 14, 2022, 01:04:07 AM
The one-year proof, so to speak, is the standard procedure. Of course, with the tours LIV is plucking players from on the board that controls the rankings, it might as well be a millennium.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: PPallotta on June 14, 2022, 01:36:31 AM
The one-year proof, so to speak, is the standard procedure. Of course, with the tours LIV is plucking players from on the board that controls the rankings, it might as well be a millennium.
And to add to the sense of unreality / artificiality of this whole house of cards, wasn't it super-agent Mark McCormack who started the 'unofficial' world rankings in the 60s, mostly to market and promote and make more money for the Big Three stars he represented, ie Jack, Arnie and Gary? If memory serves he maintained those rankings until the mid 80s, when somehow, remarkably, they soon afterwards became the 'official world rankings'! I was going to say, "You can't make this stuff up" -- but actually, you obviously *can* :) 


Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 14, 2022, 02:57:13 AM
Mark started the ranking as a feature of his annual series, "The World of Professional Golf." The first year was 1968, and he had Nicklaus, Player, Casper, Palmer and Charles as the top 5. The "official" ranking started in 1986, the R&A and McCormack coming up with a formula. It was originally sponsored by Sony, a sponsorship I'm sure McCormack helped arrange. The PGA Tour got onboard in 1997.


During COVID, some tournaments awarded ranking points even though they were part of tours that hadn't passed the one-year proof, such as the Forme Tour. That could be an argument for LIV Golf to get instant status.
Title: Re: Watched some Liv golf.
Post by: Mike Rost on June 21, 2022, 12:11:50 PM
Does anyone understand the relationship with the Asian Tour through the ownership stake and how that impacts invitations to the WGC events?  I've been wondering if a possible end state of all this is the LIV players becoming Asian Tour members and then ultimately having some Asian Tour events conveniently located in the weeks before/after LIV events.