Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on May 31, 2022, 10:59:28 PM
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DJ headlines the field. Not sure why he thinks it is best for his family but evidently he does. Not a very strong field.
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34016951/dustin-johnson-headlines-field-first-liv-golf-invitational-series-event-phil-mickelson-not-currently-entrants (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34016951/dustin-johnson-headlines-field-first-liv-golf-invitational-series-event-phil-mickelson-not-currently-entrants)
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/dustin-johnson-headlines-field-first-liv-golf-invitational-series-event (https://www.golfchannel.com/news/dustin-johnson-headlines-field-first-liv-golf-invitational-series-event)
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Just strong enough. Four of the top 50, 26 of the top 150 in this week's world rankings. Enough recognizable names (major winners) to get notice. A lot of European (DP World) Tour regulars – next week's Scandinavian Mixed will be hurt by it – and a couple of notable amateurs, including David Puig of Arizona State, a Spaniard, and James Piot of Michigan State, last year's U.S. Amateur winner.
Six places left. One is for Mickelson should he want it.
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Not sure why he thinks it is best for his family but evidently he does.
You partially answered your own question: "Not a very strong field" + huge guaranteed money.
Terrible look for a competitor taking the $ to play an inferior field. Shack speculates (https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2022/5/31/liv-lands-dj-for-first-event-filled-out-mostly-by-once-greats-a-lot-of-south-africans-and-mostly-people-youve-never-heard-of) it could hurt DJ's Hall of Fame chances, and it may eliminate Westwood, Poulter, McDdowell, Sergio, and Kaymer from ever getting a Ryder Cup captaincy.
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PGA should suspend them all for the rest of the season and next years PGA Championship if they really want to make a statement. :o
Might as well start the litigation now.
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Terrible look for a competitor taking the $ to play an inferior field.
$ ?
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Not sure why he thinks it is best for his family but evidently he does.
You partially answered your own question: "Not a very strong field" + huge guaranteed money.
Terrible look for a competitor taking the $ to play an inferior field. Shack speculates (https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2022/5/31/liv-lands-dj-for-first-event-filled-out-mostly-by-once-greats-a-lot-of-south-africans-and-mostly-people-youve-never-heard-of) it could hurt DJ's Hall of Fame chances, and it may eliminate Westwood, Poulter, McDdowell, Sergio, and Kaymer from ever getting a Ryder Cup captaincy.
There are plenty of inferior fields on every Tour in the world. Saudis have been involved with loads of tours and world wide golfers with investment in corporations and hosting their own lucrative events. The look is only bad because people decided to look. Nobody bothered looking previously. It took a a few loud mouth schmucks to get the attention of the media. What happens then? People attack the loud mouth schmucks. If its OK for a schmuck wearing a tie to line his pockets with dirty money, why not for a schmuck swinging a club? The standard has been set. All Phil and Greg did was to brazenly follow the standard. Maybe it's the personality of these guys that people don't care for rather than the source of the money.
Ciao
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I think DJ will provide the cover for a couple more surprises.
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I don’t think it’s the dirty money; I think the PGA is worried about serious dilution of it’s product. This is a garden variety restrictive covenant business dispute, and the courts will have to decide on the enforceability of the PGA Tour’s contracts.
Court’s tend not to like restrictive covenants, but those cases typically occur when an employee leaves one competitor for another. Yes, these guys are “independent contractors,” but they are still violating the terms of their PGA Tour contracts. Lots of money for lawyers here.
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PGA should suspend them all for the rest of the season and next years PGA Championship if they really want to make a statement. :o
Might as well start the litigation now.
The PGA Tour ≠ the PGA.
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PGA should suspend them all for the rest of the season and next years PGA Championship if they really want to make a statement. :o
Might as well start the litigation now.
The PGA Tour ≠ the PGA.
PGA Tour and the PGA of America?
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PGA should suspend them all for the rest of the season and next years PGA Championship if they really want to make a statement. :o
Might as well start the litigation now.
The PGA Tour ≠ the PGA.
PGA Tour and the PGA of America?
Separate operations. Have been legally since 1975, and effectively since 1969.
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I don’t think it’s the dirty money; I think the PGA is worried about serious dilution of it’s product. This is a garden variety restrictive covenant business dispute, and the courts will have to decide on the enforceability of the PGA Tour’s contracts.
Court’s tend not to like restrictive covenants, but those cases typically occur when an employee leaves one competitor for another. Yes, these guys are “independent contractors,” but they are still violating the terms of their PGA Tour contracts. Lots of money for lawyers here.
We’ll stated.
I’m a larger sense, can the PGA Tour’s actions (or threatened actions) be reasonably interpreted to be a violation of anti-trust laws?
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I don’t think it’s the dirty money; I think the PGA is worried about serious dilution of it’s product. This is a garden variety restrictive covenant business dispute, and the courts will have to decide on the enforceability of the PGA Tour’s contracts.
Court’s tend not to like restrictive covenants, but those cases typically occur when an employee leaves one competitor for another. Yes, these guys are “independent contractors,” but they are still violating the terms of their PGA Tour contracts. Lots of money for lawyers here.
We’ll stated.
I’m a larger sense, can the PGA Tour’s actions (or threatened actions) be reasonably interpreted to be a violation of anti-trust laws?
Damn autocorrect. It’s the bots that will get us before the Saudis.
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Dustin Johnson's entry surprised me, looks to be a test case for extended litigation between him and the PGA Tour. I'm sure LIV will be bankrolling this litigation. I hope he understands what he has bought into. I bet the guaranteed money is astronomical.
Takes a lot of pressure off Phil Michelson. I hope he stays away but the money train may be just too great to refuse.
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If the players on the Tour are truly "independent contractors", they can select where to earn a living, unless precluded by a non-compete or other clause - IMHO.
Many of the players in the LIV event requested a release to play in this, per the rules and were denied a release. A few guys with deep pockets, a major or two on their CV, and independent thinkers, decide to say "Pound salt" to the Tour and test the waters and see what happens.
GOOD FOR THEM!
Testing the boundaries of existing business makes a product, and thus capitalism, better for both the product supplier and the consumer.
I look forward to seeing the product and then the results
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Mike: I have no doubt anti trust will be part of what’s thrown against the wall. I suspect the PGA Tour’s response will be there is no restraint, as the LIV guys are out there competing. Again, this is a great law school exam question.
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If the players on the Tour are truly "independent contractors", they can select where to earn a living, unless precluded by a non-compete or other clause - IMHO.
Of course it includes clauses. That's the whole point, and why they needed releases. Nobody is making them choose to join the PGA Tour. They do so willingly.
IANAL, though, so I don't know if the existence of other Tours means that the PGA Tour is guilty of "restraint of trade" in an illegal way if they ban those players for violating the terms they willingly agreed to when they joined the PGA Tour.
Separate operations. Have been legally since 1975, and effectively since 1969.
Yes, thank you. The PGA Tour isn't the PGA (of America), and the former has no real say (outside of being a "friend") to how the PGA operates its championship.
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I am not an attorney and know very little about litigation. That said, I can see the lawsuits that will likely be made taking years to resolve. In the meantime Dustin et al might be allowed to compete on the tour until the suits are settled. Does that seem a likely scenario?
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What about sponsors?
https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/ (https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/)
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The only real surprise in the field to me is DJ. It seems that he is stating that he recognizes he is at the end of his career--and no longer really competitive. I'm surprised he feels that way. I'm disappointed.
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The only real surprise in the field to me is DJ. It seems that he is stating that he recognizes he is at the end of his career--and no longer really competitive. I'm surprised he feels that way. I'm disappointed.
My first thought as well. Wonder what the Great One thinks?
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Tommy:
I think that the only way a court will allow a player to play on the PGA Tour while litigation is pending is if the court were to conclude that it is reasonably likely that the player will prevail in his suit. If a court so concludes, then a temporary restraining order will issue. These are not easy to get, as you can well imagine.
As to why DJ thinks his decision is best for his family, it is being reported that he's getting $150 million to defect. I can see how his family might like this.
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In true social media fashion, my thoughts without any actual research:
I feel like this is enough to blow up the PGA Tour as we now know it.
The Saudis have shown a willingness to throw stupid money at sports in the past and there is no reason to think something different will happen here.
Mickelson's comments laid out the human rights concerns in stark detail but it did not kill the idea and there are enough inconsistencies in any moral stand taken against the concept that I think money wins out in the end. We take oil from the Saudis. Other sports have had events in the country without serious repercussions. Our relationship with the country remains important - all the more so in light of events in Russia. Financial and security concerns almost universally win out over moral concerns,
PGA Tour actions appear to raise serious antitrust concerns and also serious concerns about whether its players are truly independent contractors or employees. While the Tour's coffers are big, I doubt they have the resources to counter a Saudi sports washing effort.
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Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.
These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
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These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
But...are you suggesting the PGA Tour should have to let them come and go as they please? If the Saudi's are effective, they will put the PGA TOUR substantially out of business.
You may doubt that, but please describe a scenario in which the LIV Tour is alive and well in 5 years and the PGA Tour product, with all its moving parts and beneficiaries, is unaffected.
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The only real surprise in the field to me is DJ. It seems that he is stating that he recognizes he is at the end of his career--and no longer really competitive. I'm surprised he feels that way. I'm disappointed.
Jim-I don’t see it that way at all. It’s about the money and if $150 million is correct that makes the picture a lot clearer.
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Brandel just made a point to say that the figures being tossed about assume the Saudis actually pay what they say they will pay.
Unless DJ gets $150M right away, he might find that he gets $25M, then another $25M, and then when the third payment is due… well, "the check is in the mail…". And to whom would he really complain?
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DJ's will likely lose sponsor RBC since The Canadian Open is upcoming shortly.
If the $150 MM is true, I'm thinking Saudia (Saudi Arabian Airlines) has already been contacted about room becoming available on Dustin's apparel/hat/etc.....just saying.
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Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.
These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?
And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV? My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV? Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?
And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?
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What about sponsors?
https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/ (https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/)
Steve:
I bet his sponsors are beyond livid. I had a nice chat once with a woman who works for a major telecommunications company who decides which player has their logo on their shirt and bag. The annual pay was eight figures. But for that you get to feature the player in your advertisements, corporate meet and greet etc.
The perception for many is that Saudi money is blood money - not to mention the climate change issue. You don't pay a player eight figures to bring heat down on your company - whether or not it is deserved.
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Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.
These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?
And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV? My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV? Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?
And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?
Mike-It’s somewhat of a Catch-22 for the PGA Tour because once you start banning a cadre of highly ranked players you dilute your own product.
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$ ?
Money.
Sorry, it was late at night and I took a shortcut.
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There are plenty of inferior fields on every Tour in the world. Saudis have been involved with loads of tours and world wide golfers with investment in corporations and hosting their own lucrative events. The look is only bad because people decided to look. Nobody bothered looking previously. It took a a few loud mouth schmucks to get the attention of the media. What happens then? People attack the loud mouth schmucks. If its OK for a schmuck wearing a tie to line his pockets with dirty money, why not for a schmuck swinging a club? The standard has been set. All Phil and Greg did was to brazenly follow the standard. Maybe it's the personality of these guys that people don't care for rather than the source of the money.
Ciao
Just to clarify what I meant: I was referring to taking guaranteed money instead of competing on the most competitive golf tour, I was not referencing the Saudi angle. I believe even without the Saudis being involved, the PGA Tour would react, justifiably, just as strongly to a similarly funded competing operation.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FULjs3WWQAIsvNu?format=jpg)
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8) Money Money Money, call it what you will...
I walked and talked with Fuzzy Z between holes at a Champions Tour event and asked him why he plays pro golf? He said, literally without missing a step and smiling: "You know, someone puts that prize money out there for grabs, and I'm going to go play for it!"
Now take James Piot, 23 yrs old won US Am in 2021, All-American at MSU, I see he has 1000-1 odds at The Memorial... missed cut at Masters... just turned pro, how much can he make in a couple years in the Super Golf League versus the PGA Tour?
Most folks work a lifetime to build family and a nest egg to retire on... 6 and seven figures worth for most with a good job(s) a little planning, and even with good luck or the lottery maybe a little more. Of course most professions pay better than jobs...
You know, with the Saudi's normally producing around 10,000,000 plus barrels a day and a landed price of $100 plus a barrel, we're talking $1,000,000,000 a day of cash flow. Funding this new golf league, no problem...
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With Phil Mickelson probably still negotiating with the Saudi, the Dustin Johnson announcement may very well put a major dent in what Mickelson thought he was going to sign for. At 37 years of age, and still in his prime, perhaps Dustin will welcome just playiing in the 8 limited events, taking home a guarantee of $250 million plus a lot of prize money he can make against a field that is less talented than Dustin.
I remember Curt Flood when I was growing up who tested Major League Baseball and created free agency. I think this situation is different since golf pros are independent contractors, but I'd love to see the actual contract pga pros with with the pga, their CONDUCT CLAUSE, PROHIBITIONS, ETC.
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Brandel just made a point to say that the figures being tossed about assume the Saudis actually pay what they say they will pay.
Unless DJ gets $150M right away, he might find that he gets $25M, then another $25M, and then when the third payment is due… well, "the check is in the mail…". And to whom would he really complain?
I wonder, did Brandel also make the point that DJ could play in a dozen PGA Tour events, miss the cut in all of them, and go home with not a lot ?
Anyway, how many PGA Tour events do you need to win to get £25m ?
Niall
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Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.
These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
The answer to this is that the Euro Tour doesn't hold events in North America and isn't offering tens of millions to the PGA Tour's top players. There were some that thought the Tour would grant a release for the first event as it was overseas, and they have a history of granting releases. The Tour may be smart to hold disciplinary action on players until the next event at Pumpkin Ridge in early July. PGA policy does not allow its players to play in tournaments from a competing tour in North America. They would likely be on firmer ground to wait until then, although that doesn't seem to be the path they will take.
Obviously litigation is coming, and on it rests the future of the PGA Tour and also the Euro Tour. LIV and the PGA Tour can't peacefully co-exist. One is going to win and one is going to lose. I think a huge player in this is going to be what Augusta, the USGA, the R&A, and the PGA of America do. If LIV players continue to gain access to the majors, then that will be a big development; as would be access to The Ryder Cup. If they can't access these events, I think LIV will fail before the litigation is finished.
Also big will be if, and how many, world ranking points will be awarded for LIV events. The announced field top to bottom is really poor for the London event. Even if points are awarded, players playing exclusively with LIV are going to see their rankings drop quickly due to poor fields and lack of events. As a result they may not qualify for major tournaments based just on that. Playing 14-15 big money events plus the majors will be appealing to many. Getting paid to play in events with no current broadcast rights and no entry to majors or the Ryder Cup is not going to be.
Another factor is how long are the Saudis really prepared to bleed large amounts of money. LIV has hired a respected production company to broadcast their events, but they have not been able to secure broadcast partners. They have been trying, but failing. The first event can only be seen on YouTube the last I saw. Very, very few people are going to watch these events. Sponsors are not going to be happy that their players are not being seen. The Saudis have overcome that issue in the short term by money whipping players. Let's see how long that lasts.
Either way, the PGA Tour IMO is going to need to make some more significant changes to how it operates. Appearance money may be a start. Significant (beyond 20%) increases in purses would be another. Allowing some sharing of media rights with the players is less likely, but maybe where things end up.
As I was typing this out, I see that RBC has dropped Johnson and McDowell. More to come I'm sure.
I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?
And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV? My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV? Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?
And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?
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I guarantee Justin Dustin has the money in an iron clad escrow account, to be released upon terms 100% favorable to him, probably equal to his projected earnings over the next 10 years. If we see Phil's name appear in the remaining 6, his deal will have to cover somehow his loss of sponsorship or maybe it's too late on that, maybe it will just salvage enough so he can continue living and gambling.
I don't know about any of you, but I feel bad for Phil. What he said any lawyer would have said in negotiations in PRIVATE on behalf of his client, except Phil said it to the wrong guy. The old saying saying by Thomas Edison " You will have many opportunities in life to keep your mouth shut: You should take advantage of every one of them"
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So RBC decided to drop Dustin Johnson and Graham McDowell based on “just because“ principles? And they weren’t nudged or otherwise asked by the PGA Tour to do this?
Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.
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Are all participants in the London event banned from future PGA events barring litigation?
Will we see Louis at St. Andrews?
Will Fred Ridley invite DJ back to the Masters?
Would not several problems disappear if we were energy independent? I have a hard time being upset at golfers taking the Saudi $$ when a lot the $$ comes from us. Are we outraged that kids of the Saudi Royal family go to American schools? We are complicit and seem to find it easy to target golfers. Quite unfairly, IMO, for repatriating the $$.
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So RBC decided to drop Dustin Johnson and Graham McDowell based on “just because“ principles? And they weren’t nudged or otherwise asked by the PGA Tour to do this?
Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.
I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event. I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder. Ditto for their business in genocidal China.
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As Ian MacKenzie said, wait until the LIV gets to the US in early July at Pumpkin Ridge. There a number of local mayors wrote a letter against the event. It is reported that a number of people have resigned their membership from that club. Escalante Golf (a Texas LLC) owns that course and a number of others.
My take is that a number of members of the PGA Tour ages 35+ will be more prone to take the LIV money. More money less effort.
For all that the Khashoggi murder negatives, is that balanced by their stance on abortion: abortion in Saudi Arabia is [/size]legal only in cases of risk to a woman's life, fetal impairment, or to protect her physical and mental health[/color][/size].[/color][/size][size=78%] [/size]Their size of field (48 players into 16 or 24 groups) may lead to faster play,
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Anyway, how many PGA Tour events do you need to win to get £25m ?
It's not just PGA Tour payouts. DJ has lost sponsors.
Phil could have made $20M/year for the next 20 years between sponsorships and the Champions Tour. Will he get $400M out of this whole deal?
I don't know about any of you, but I feel bad for Phil. What he said any lawyer would have said in negotiations in PRIVATE on behalf of his client, except Phil said it to the wrong guy. The old saying saying by Thomas Edison " You will have many opportunities in life to keep your mouth shut: You should take advantage of every one of them"
It's about more than what Phil SAID, and at least partly (perhaps even mostly) about what Phil DID.
I don't feel bad for Phil. It just is what it is. He reaped what he sowed.
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I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event. I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder. Ditto for their business in genocidal China.
When RBC-sponsored golfers have played in previous Saudi Invitationals, they’ve done so without the RBC branding that appears on their shirt every other week.
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Ed Barzeski:
Will Phil get $400 MM from the LIV deal/ Who knows. Would Phil have earned $20 MM/year for the next 20 years (playing & endorsements) - probably.
The Net present Value of $400MM over a 20 year period @ a discount rate (for inflation) of 5% is $250 MM; 7.5% - $200 MM
So would you take $20 MM/year for 2o years or $100 MM or $150 MM this year and next and march off into the sunset? Me thinks the bird in hand (cash in the account) sooner rather than later is an option most would select.
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These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.
But...are you suggesting the PGA Tour should have to let them come and go as they please? If the Saudi's are effective, they will put the PGA TOUR substantially out of business.
You may doubt that, but please describe a scenario in which the LIV Tour is alive and well in 5 years and the PGA Tour product, with all its moving parts and beneficiaries, is unaffected.
Who cares?
Let the market decide....meaning US the viewers.
If the LIV tour sucks ass (like the USFL, WHL and ABA before that), then they crap out and investors/backers lose and the players who participated must deal with the fall out as they are gown-ass-men!
However, if "we the people" actually enjoy the product they are attempting to sell us - just like the PGA Tour sells us a product - then how is that a bad thing?
Sounds to me like the PGA Tour seeks to stifle competition and nothing could be more 1) un-American and 2) anti-capitalist.
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I guarantee Justin Dustin has the money in an iron clad escrow account, to be released upon terms 100% favorable to him, probably equal to his projected earnings over the next 10 years.
Does anyone really think that DJ’s lawyers, accountants, financial advisors and business agents are going to let him twist in the wind for the money? I’m sure everything was factored in for purposes of what he stood to lose from sponsors and prize money on the PGA Tour versus his take from the LIV? Brandel Chamblee’s comments are complete conjecture with no basis in fact. I wonder what Rich Lerner thinks? ;)
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I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event. I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder. Ditto for their business in genocidal China.
When RBC-sponsored golfers have played in previous Saudi Invitationals, they’ve done so without the RBC branding that appears on their shirt every other week.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fuu%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2F8r11OPpHx8SYWjPm8VgJOg--~B%2FaD0xNzE1O3c9MjMzODtzbT0xO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2FSports%2Fap%2F202002020852319265633&f=1&nofb=1)
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While it is true that professional golfers are not employees of the PGA Tour, as noted in prior comments they do commit to and accept certain proscribed obligations and parameters of activity/behavior when they choose to become members of the PGA Tour. They need to honor those commitments if they wish to retain their membership in the Tour and access to Tour competitions.
They also commit to accepting the judgement and discipline of the PGA Tour should certain situations or disputes arise.
How all that plays out in a courtroom remains to be seen. ;)
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While it is true that professional golfers are not employees of the PGA Tour, as noted in prior comments they do commit to and accept certain proscribed obligations and parameters of activity/behavior when they choose to become members of the PGA Tour. They need to honor those commitments if they wish to retain their membership in the Tour and access to Tour competitions.
They also commit to accepting the judgement and discipline of the PGA Tour should certain situations or disputes arise.
How all that plays out in a courtroom remains to be seen. ;)
Tongue and cheek smart ass comment — the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 called and they want their golf tournament back.
:-*
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Anyway, how many PGA Tour events do you need to win to get £25m ?
It's not just PGA Tour payouts. DJ has lost sponsors.
Phil could have made $20M/year for the next 20 years between sponsorships and the Champions Tour. Will he get $400M out of this whole deal?
Erik
Could have made $20M/year for the next 20 years !!! Let me point out a few weaknesses in your argument;
- the first one is "could". You seem to be assuming that Phil will be a money making entity when he's 73. He might well be but let me suggest that is a very big IF.
- as Bruce points out, even if you took it as a given he'd be on $20M/year for the next 20 years, the present value of that accumulative income is a lot less than $400M.
- you seem to assume that as he has lost some sponsors that he won't gain further sponsors to either offset the sponsorship lost or even to surpass it. It strikes me that commercial entities are basically amoral and any sponsors who have cut ties with Phil have done so because his recent comments on the Saudi's doesn't suit there short term aims which is fair enough, however I expect there will be commercial companies from that part of the world who will gladly sponsor Phil because of his exposure on the LIV tour will suit their business model. As for the Saudi's, if they are as cynical as everyone says they are then I doubt they will black-ball him because he chose to say a few home truths about them.
Niall
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54 holes is a better format for gaming.
Like anything with Roman Numerals isn’t bet on. Kudos for LIV. What a great name.
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Who cares?
Let the market decide....meaning US the viewers.
If the LIV tour sucks ass (like the USFL, WHL and ABA before that), then they crap out and investors/backers lose and the players who participated must deal with the fall out as they are gown-ass-men!
However, if "we the people" actually enjoy the product they are attempting to sell us - just like the PGA Tour sells us a product - then how is that a bad thing?
Sounds to me like the PGA Tour seeks to stifle competition and nothing could be more 1) un-American and 2) anti-capitalist.
How terrifying! Ian M and I agreeing entirely on something.
As much as Milton Friedman feared a large, dominant central government, he was just as concerned with companies and organizations in cahoots with institutions that had the power to compel. There are far more crony capitalists than players in commerce which are willing to participate on a level playing field; many more rent-seekers than those who compete on the basis of superior products and value.
The PGA Tour split from the PGA in the late 1960s for reasons to do with reaping the benefits of their work. I identify with that sentiment. Competition does make most of us better, albeit not without some pain.
We see throughout the internet the monetization of golf by those who may love the game, but aren't able to make a living at it with their sticks. The Tour financials posted here were eye-opening- some $1 Billion in fairly liquid assets beyond pension obligations. Yet, a journeyman out because of injury with some 70 cuts made enjoys pension benefits of $0.
If the PGA Tour model works so well, why fear a bit of competition? Creative destruction is a key principle in our market economy, so long as it is another's destruction that benefits us. Not so sporting are we?
David Tepper,
I can see a large organization with considerable market power claim that the employee signed the conditions of employment with his own freewill and no matter how onerous, the court will hold him to the T of that agreement. While Golf and pro golfers may not get a sympathetic ear from government, the independent contractor/employee issue has received a lot of attention by Democrats and perhaps the Tour might find a way to accommodate some releases to avoid prolonged litigation.
A while ago the Tour instituted a policy that required Tour members to play X number of events annually (15, I think) to retain their status. It also had guidance on rotating tournaments so that the marquee players would be in a given field every three to five years (I don't know if this is accurate or still in effect). Anyways, it seems that some accommodations in this direction might be made, though I can see the resistance, to competition.
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Isn’t this just the evolution of the professional golf industry?
Early on, players were happy to be paid to play. But as more money entered the tours, the smaller tournaments started to fall away.
The PGA tour has tried to push the Fed Ex cup to get players to play in Moline, or Napa, or Miss, or Mexico, but it’s become a tour of the better known events with the largest purses.
The modem tour player is a corporation. It’s a brand. The LIV is just taking what’s come before it and building on it. The PGA tour put many smaller tour stops out of business. Now they are getting some of their own medicine. And so it goes
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Lou -
As I stated (or at least implied) in my post, I have little idea how all this will play out on a legal basis.
It certainly appears the PGA Tour has a right to determine who becomes a member and the terms of membership. No golfer is obliged to join the PGA Tour if they wish to compete as a professional.
As the saying goes, "membership has its privileges." But it also has its obligations.
DT
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Lou -
As I stated (or at least implied) in my post, I have little idea how all this will play out on a legal basis.
It certainly appears the PGA Tour has a right to determine who becomes a member and the terms of membership. No golfer is obliged to join the PGA Tour if they wish to compete as a professional.
As the saying goes, "membership has its privileges," but it also has its obligations.
DT
David,
I'd have to agree. From what I've seen and read the questionable agreements/contracts go something along the lines of:
"You can't work for anyone else, until your contract is up with us...bar none"
But the PGA Tour agreement seems a bit different at:
"You can go work for someone else, but you're subject to being disciplined, up to and including you're done with us"
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54 holes is a better format for gaming.
Like anything with Roman Numerals isn’t bet on. Kudos for LIV. What a great name.
The Saudis are anti-gambling. It would be respectful to not bet on their events.
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rbc-dustin-johnson-liv-golf (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rbc-dustin-johnson-liv-golf)
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My first thought as well. Wonder what the Great One thinks?
It’s likely that is who is driving this train.
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I have zero respect for anyone that will work for a guy that chops up Americans with a butcher knife. This is worse that diamond money.
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Brandel just made a point to say that the figures being tossed about assume the Saudis actually pay what they say they will pay.
Unless DJ gets $150M right away, he might find that he gets $25M, then another $25M, and then when the third payment is due… well, "the check is in the mail…". And to whom would he really complain?
That was the second thing I thought of.
The first was...
Forgetting about about the potential effect on the PGA Tour (and one's loyalty to it, and the agreement that was signed)...
and forgetting that it's Saudi money....(for example if it was another World Tour)
What sponsor would want to line up a contract with a player who says "he's fully committed to the PGA Tour" two weeks ago,
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMDNDClXIAAHjKK?format=png&name=large)
and skips the flagship event of his sponsor RBC-their first Canadian Open in three years-that he was featured heavily in advance promotion.
Isn't one's word worth something?
Wouldn't you wonder about his loyalty to you, the next sponsor?
Surely he could have some of the money given to him the last three years clawed back, given there's been no Canadian Open,yet no doubt he's been collecting from RBC.
Disappointed, but not surprised.
In other news,
I can't imagine Davis Love lll is real thrilled with Hudson Swafford...
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Nobody has the moral courage to call this what it is? Come on! This is sports washing of the ugliest kind! The golf clubs letting these thugs use their course, their name, to promote this effort to make the Royal Family look like good guys is despicable. Where has the honor that once ruled golf gone?
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Ed:
:P
So would you take $20 MM/year for 2o years or $100 MM or $150 MM this year and next and march off into the sunset? Me thinks the bird in hand (cash in the account) sooner rather than later is an option most would select.
I get what you're saying, but for Phil with his gambling, taking the annuity may be the smarter option. ;D
- the first one is "could". You seem to be assuming that Phil will be a money making entity when he's 73. He might well be but let me suggest that is a very big IF.
Maybe. He could have also made more than $20M. Arnold Palmer continued to do pretty well (also with Callaway and others).
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What about sponsors?
https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/ (https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/)
Didn't RBC help Aramco with their IPO?
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Just because one is an independent contractor and not an employee does not mean he isn’t bound the the terms of his contract. If Tom Doak builds a course for a client and agrees not to build another one within 100 miles, he must honor his agreement, even though he is not an employee, and even though the Saudis offer him $100 million to build one next door.
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My first thought as well. Wonder what the Great One thinks?
It’s likely that is who is driving this train.
Anyone who knows anything about that family knows that it is Janet making the decisions. Wayne wouldn't care.
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Nobody has the moral courage to call this what it is? Come on! This is sports washing of the ugliest kind! The golf clubs letting these thugs use their course, their name, to promote this effort to make the Royal Family look like good guys is despicable. Where has the honor that once ruled golf gone?
Call it whatever you want. Guys wearing ties legitimised doing business with Saudi a long time ago. DJ is sticking his fork in the pie like many have. This is small beer.
Ciao
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I’m curious from Ian and Lou, on the idea of free and fair competition;
How is the PGA Tour not competing fairly?
You certainly understand the value to the Tour of having their players play primarily on their Tour. They’ve apparently executed agreements to that effect. Why is it anti-fair competition to let the players choose one or the other tour?
Could you name a single business (small or large) that welcomes a threat into their market with open arms and full assistance? Considering the resources (top players in the world) are extremely limited, I see no reason why they should encourage players to play in even a single LIV event.
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All that said, I suspect this will dramatically change/disrupt how the Tour operates.
Top end professional golf will look starkly different 3 years from. Ow with or without the LIV Tour.
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All that said, I suspect this will dramatically change/disrupt how the Tour operates.
Top end professional golf will look starkly different 3 years from. Ow with or without the LIV Tour.
I would guess that the DP World Tour will suffer the most.
followed by the LPGA-which is a better product than it's ever been IMO.
Particulalry if we enter a protracted economic downturn, where the Saudis are flourishing in expensive oil, and companies begin feeling the inflationary/recessionary effects, while competing with a government backed tour who can choose to massively outspend them with a different motivation than short term financial profit and shareholders.
Geographically, LIV makes more sense than the PGA Tour for many Euros who don't want to base in the US/Florida.
We'll see how it turns out.
Thinner fields on all tours COULD have the effect of concentrating more wins in familiar hands, creating more stars, which creates familiarity and more of a reason to watch for many.
I always thought at some point players who were financially secure were playing for their legacy and and trophies/majors.
Especially in this era where it is far more reachable at an early age-I would have understood more in 1945-1990ish, where only a handful profited handsomely.
How much does your life change from 100m to 250m?
Yes, it happens in other pro sports, but I mostly stopped watching them years ago....
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All that said, I suspect this will dramatically change/disrupt how the Tour operates.
Top end professional golf will look starkly different 3 years from. Ow with or without the LIV Tour.
Wasn't that basically Phil's stated goal?
Ciao
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Missing quotes, so I have edited. Sorry for butchering it.
"I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?
And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV? My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV? Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?
And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?"
This will answer a lot of questions, if I can post the link. It is the Player Handbook. If the link doesn't work, you can just Google the Player Handbook. https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2019-2020-pga-tour-handbook--regs-09_10_19.pdf (https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2019-2020-pga-tour-handbook--regs-09_10_19.pdf)
1. Yes, they can go play where they want. They just can't do that AND be a member of the Tour. The Tour is trying to protect its product, no doubt. It has reasons to not let it players in events that are happening the same days as their tournaments, regardless of the funding source.
2. I believe the PGA Tour is opposed to LIV in particular because so many of their events will be held in the U.S., directly competing with its product.
3. I liken the arrangement to something like this: The players have agreed to be independent contractors selling and delivering Pepsi to local restaurants. The players now approach their employers and want to sell and deliver Coke to these same restaurants next week. Pepsi, seeing that as direct competition to its product, says OK, fine, you can do that (so no restriction). But they also say you just can't also sell and deliver our product; it harms our business. So you have to choose. One or the other, but not both.
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All that said, I suspect this will dramatically change/disrupt how the Tour operates.
Top end professional golf will look starkly different 3 years from. Ow with or without the LIV Tour.
Wasn't that basically Phil's stated goal?
Ciao
Yes Sean, I believe this is how Phil explained his actions after the fact.
If we are to take Shipnuk at his word, Phil had his (and 2 other top players) attorneys draw up the legal operating guidelines for this tour.
Since that all came to light, Shipnuk has given countless interviews and his book has been released. Phil has not been seen.
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Lou -
As I stated (or at least implied) in my post, I have little idea how all this will play out on a legal basis.
It certainly appears the PGA Tour has a right to determine who becomes a member and the terms of membership. No golfer is obliged to join the PGA Tour if they wish to compete as a professional.
As the saying goes, "membership has its privileges." But it also has its obligations.
DT
Agree, but both, privileges and obligations should be within reason.
I have not studied labor law, but I think that the relative power of the parties negotiating an agreement has considerable weight. To Jim Coleman's point, a developer imposing a limited competitive restriction on Tom Doak as a condition of employment is hardly a barrier to the architect's ability to make a living in the remaining geography of this world. Tom and Developer X probably do not have dissimilar market power. Also, I doubt that such anti-competitive practices are enforceable in perpetuity.
As to Mr. Allen's Pepsi/Coke example- I worked in that industry for a number of years and the competition was fierce and at times personal- the independent contractors/bottlers had a reasonable choice as to whose products to carry in a protected geography. It is my understanding that other Tours which routinely benefit from exemptions to US PGA Tour members have likewise (colluded?) imposed similarly draconian penalties on pros wanting to play a limited LIV schedule. BTW, PepsiCo is frequently sued for much more lenient restrictions on its bottlers. And my then employer, a very aggressive, marketing and sales driven company, always fought mightly for shelf space, but NEVER, to my knowledge, asked a grocer to ban a competitor.
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They may also not get to play in major championships.
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34020179/usga-decide-us-open-player-eligibility-liv-participants-case-case-basis (https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34020179/usga-decide-us-open-player-eligibility-liv-participants-case-case-basis)
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What about sponsors?
https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/ (https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/)
Didn't RBC help Aramco with their IPO?
Yes, but pretty much everyone was:
Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (Saudi Aramco) has issued, on Sunday Nov 10, its prospectus for the initial public offering (IPO) of a part of its shares.
The company named 25 underwriters to cover its IPO as follows:
1) Citigroup Saudi Arabia
2) Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Ltd.
3) Goldman Sachs International
4) HSBC Saudi Arabia
5) JP Morgan Securities PLC.
6) Merrill Lynch Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
7) Morgan Stanley & Co. International plc
8) NCBC
9) Samba Capital
10) Al Rajhi Capital
11) Banco Santander SA.
12) BNP Paribas
13) BOCI Asia Ltd.
14) Credit Agricole CIB
15) Deutsche Securities Saudi Arabia
16) EFG Herms Saudi Arabia
17) First Abu Dhabi Bank
18) GIB Capital
19) Mizuho International PLC.
20) RBC Europe Ltd.
21) Riyad Capital
22) Saudi Fransi Capital
23) SMBC Nikko Capital Markets Limited
24) Société Générale
25) UBS AG London Branch
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Geographically, LIV makes more sense than the PGA Tour for many Euros who don't want to base in the US/Florida.
But a whole bunch of these guys have been based in the US for a long time. Like GMac, Poulter, etc that have been living at Lake Nona for a decade or more.
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I’m curious from Ian and Lou, on the idea of free and fair competition;
How is the PGA Tour not competing fairly?
You certainly understand the value to the Tour of having their players play primarily on their Tour. They’ve apparently executed agreements to that effect. Why is it anti-fair competition to let the players choose one or the other tour?
Could you name a single business (small or large) that welcomes a threat into their market with open arms and full assistance? Considering the resources (top players in the world) are extremely limited, I see no reason why they should encourage players to play in even a single LIV event.
I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance". The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.
I am having a hard time finding the salaries for the top 13 PGA Tour execs, but Mr. Monahan in his first year as commissioner in 2017, was paid $3.9 Million (don't know if employee benefits and travel are included), which would put him around #20 in that year's money list (gross earnings, before expenses) without having to pull a club back and risk missing a cut/pay-check. I know that other professional sports pay their top exec more, but that is at the discretion of the team owners which may or may not reflect the price discovery markets create, i.e. the ability to identify the next best qualified candidate and ascertain the price.
If the PGA Tour reflexively denied exemptions to play selected events on other tours, I might feel that its reactions are directionally justified IF the threatened ban was time-limited. And before we get our highly selective moral compasses out to signal our great virtue, please consider that any number of products endorsed on the PGA Tour are originated from even worse places (e.g.how many here proudly sport the ubiquitous Nike Swoosh?). The unfortunate thing about being consumers in a global economy is that we often have little choice as to whose products we support. Proud of your EV? Ever think about where the precious metals are coming from for the batteries and the terrible environmental damage they cause in their country of origin?
What might have been a better Tour reaction? Perhaps a commitment to allow X number of exemptions for each tournament, based on some mutual agreement of how it is to be done. Then see what happens. While I think that any number of Tour players would likely chase the money, I suspect that the sportsmen up through their prime would select to compete at the highest level and still reap considerable rewards.
Phil was asking, many demanding is a better word, for an equitable distribution of the players' images and content directly to the players. I think that this is a very fair request. The Tour has balked- do we really want to talk about greed? Perhaps the bureaucracy is valuing their contribution to the Show very highly, or maybe they are buying into the woke mentality that Merit is greatly overrated if not outright racist.
A second demand that Phil may not have made is an extensive review of the Tour's pension program. For whatever reason, GD had to piece an article together years ago for a lack of transparency. I apparently incorrectly believed that it was based on the number of cuts made with a relatively low threshold. With so much money flowing into the coffers at headquarters, I'd rather those who people came to watch be paid generously than the good staff members who are assured high pay, generous benefits, and great working conditions without much at risk.
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All anti-trust lawyers I have spoken with say that the PGA Tour will win the inevitable lawsuit. But--we will see.
A more interesting question to me is what will happen when a player decides he made a mistake and asks to be reinstated on the Tour. Will they forgive him? Under what conditions?
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You sign up to membership when you join the PGA tour or European (Dubai Port World) Tour. That membership has RULES. If you break those rules you get a fine, if you continue to break those rules you will get bigger fines which end up being removed from that MEMBERSHIP.
The European tour has had these rules for years, regardless of icky money, you can decide to opt out one week but you can't opt out and go play in another event.
The rules are there as a two way contract, you don't slag off the sponsors or the course, you must give interviews. The tour provides the tournaments. If you go work/play on a rival tour you risk causing damage to YOUR tour which endangers your fellow members.
Seems a more simple breach of contract to me. If they play/continue to play LIV dont expect to be allowed on the PGA or DP tours, all the DP tour members have been warned.
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I have zero respect for anyone that will work for a guy that chops up Americans with a butcher knife. This is worse that diamond money.
I'm not coming to the defense of the House of Saud, Craig.
But, if pro sports were dependent upon the righteousness of their nation-sponsors, then I fear we would have no sports at all.
Or, how long is your "penalty box period" for nations that violate your moral code?
10 years? 50, 75...? Germany is obviously out of it by now as is Japan, etc.
The US was certainly forgiven (?) for invading a sovereign nation based on fake intel. Oops. Something about stones and glass houses comes to mind.
Lots of others may look at "US" and cite: Tuscegee Experiment, Oklahoma Greenwood "Black Wall Street" bombing in the 20's, and even January 6th and take their own personal moral stand as you did.
Or, just like the PGA Tour did to all Trump properties.
The rich-ass Saudis have "stupid-money" that they throw around will-nilly at football, golf and other sports. They tried and failed to make a soccer/football league, too.
Wait 20 years and watch these nations re-invent themselves when the modern world moves towards oil-independence and they become a punchline rather than a headline.
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RBC splits with Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell
Both players' endorsement agreements were terminated after deciding to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series
https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell (https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell)
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I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance". The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.
So you'd like the PGA Tour to be the first?!? ok...
What would be the "right" comp package for Jay Monahan? Better yet, what level executive would that role attract if the comp package were say, $1.2M, just to pick a number?
Bizarre to me that you're focused on executive comp inflated by something less than $20M considering all the numbers bouncing around this issue.
If you were a PGA Tour member, or other stakeholder, would you want to feel like you've got top line talent running the ship right now? Or would you want to wing it?
The Name/Image/Likeness issue will be interesting to see develop. Are the Saudi's putting up their billions to hand that over to the players?
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Jim, +100 to your last post.
I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.
The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat.
SMH....
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Another interesting question--maybe the biggest--is what this will mean to LIV players getting into the 4 Majors--none of which is controlled by the Tours. Erik brought up the point--but there has been no comment on here. Anyone have any insights? I did see a somewhat-vague quote of exclusion from the PGA of America--and Erik posted an US Open comment. Anything else?
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RBC splits with Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell
Both players' endorsement agreements were terminated after deciding to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series
https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell (https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell)
This was particularly bad look for DJ as he was a team RBC member and will be in an event that conflicts with the RBC Canadian Open, which is being held for the first time in three years. He is a past champ of this event and appeared in a lot of posters, ads, etc. Apparently yesterday they were changing all of the posters at St. George's where the event is being held next week.
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Another interesting question--maybe the biggest--is what this will mean to LIV players getting into the 4 Majors--none of which is controlled by the Tours. Erik brought up the point--but there has been no comment on here. Anyone have any insights? I did see a somewhat-vague quote of exclusion from the PGA of America--and Erik posted an US Open comment. Anything else?
We should find out in pretty short order as the US Open is less than two weeks away.
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To take Jim Hoak's last post a little further, how will the results in the LIV events be incorporated into the World Golf Rankings?
I have no idea who administers the WGR, but it will be interesting given that the WGR help determine who qualifies to play in the 4 majors.
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I have no particular knowledge, but I'd be surprised if the field at the US Open in 2-3 weeks were affected. I assume they will let the field that is already established stand. But for next year?
The World Rankings question is a very good one. Many off-Tour events--like Monday exhibitions--are not included in ranking points. I assume a tour or an event has to apply to be included? Who decides?
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Jim H. -
If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you will see all the "Eligible Tours" considered for WGR points. The "Official World Golf Ranking Founders" are also listed.
http://www.owgr.com/ranking
We shall if/when LIV appears in either category. ;)
DT
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I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance". The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.
So you'd like the PGA Tour to be the first?!? ok...
What would be the "right" comp package for Jay Monahan? Better yet, what level executive would that role attract if the comp package were say, $1.2M, just to pick a number?
Bizarre to me that you're focused on executive comp inflated by something less than $20M considering all the numbers bouncing around this issue.
If you were a PGA Tour member, or other stakeholder, would you want to feel like you've got top line talent running the ship right now? Or would you want to wing it?
The Name/Image/Likeness issue will be interesting to see develop. Are the Saudi's putting up their billions to hand that over to the players?
On #1, all organizations (and organisms) have two primary, allied drives, survival and reproduction. Meeting the competition, better yet, holding it at bay, is integral. I would have liked the PGA Tour to be more receptive to what I consider the legitimate requests of one of its biggest stars over the last 20 or so years. Having shown little interest in sharing the wealth, the work product of those who generate it, I think it would have been prudent for the Tour to take a more conciliatory approach, say by giving a few exemptions and evaluating what this portends to the future. Unlike Jim, I have not consulted with an antitrust lawyer, but have read quite a bit to know that the landscape is changing away from the effects on consumers. I do suspect that his contacts are right at least over the near term and the Tour would likely prevail.
On #2, 3, I have no beef with what Monahan makes- I'm assuming that the Tour governing group is qualified to evaluate those things and he is fairly paid. I am saying that whatever it is, it puts him up there within the Top 50 money winners, you know, the men who generate the revenues and are paid based on their performance. If the Tour had a meager balance sheet and the compensation for the executives and staff was market-based, then I could more easily understand its rebuffal of Phil's position. Ditto for the burr up my ass regarding its pension system leaving out hard-working journeymen who did not set the world on fire, but were still an integral part of the Tour.
Not that it is relevant, I am curious about other sports- how many baseball and basketball players make more than the commissioners of their leagues? How many team owners make less, especially when considering the increase of franchise values? Are Asian baseball players prohibited from returning home after playing in the U.S.? Those who come here certainly dilute the product of their domestic teams. Perhaps the PGA Tour might have been able to negotiate a sizable signing fee with the Saudis and provided for an orderly return to those players who took advantage of the opportunity. But I digress.
#4, if I was a Tour player I'd want a smart, energetic, person with the requisite skills and PR demeanor to run things with competent staff, all paid based on market levels of compensation and objective performance evaluations. I would also want to have a system in place that recognizes my contributions to the Show and has sufficient safety nets in the event that my career is cut short by injury from the job. I would also not underestimate the value of sponsors, host clubs, and the thousands of volunteers who actually pay a fee ($50 is not atypical) to work for a week gratis.
#5, had the Tour acted fairly in this regard, maybe most of the rest would have been moot. I suspect that the Saudis are more attuned to the issue of who owns the rights to their own image than perhaps we are. I would also be very surprised if they short the players on the commitments that drew them to that tour.
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Lou -
The PGA Tour has a 16-member Player Advisory Council. It is not as though the '"powers that be" in the administration of the Tour act with no input from the players. Perhaps some of the issues/concerns raised by Phil Mickelson have been considered by this group and it was his fellow players who did not support PM over these matters. Then again, perhaps not. :)
The members of the Council for 2022 are listed here:
https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/01/17/player-advisory-council-announced-patrick-cantlay-brooks-koepka-billy-horschel-will-zalatoris-jon-rahm.html (https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/01/17/player-advisory-council-announced-patrick-cantlay-brooks-koepka-billy-horschel-will-zalatoris-jon-rahm.html)
It is curious to see Graeme McDowell listed as a member of the Council given his decision to join LIV. My guess is he will be replaced very soon.
DT
p.s. Another other interesting card to be played several years down the road is what will happen to the 40-something players who have joined LIV once they turn 50. Will Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, etc. be welcome on the Champions Tour?
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Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.
I would agree and tend to think that value would be extremely "high"
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p.s. Another other interesting card to be played several years down the road is what will happen to the 40-something players who have joined LIV once they turn 50. Will Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, etc. be welcome on the Champions Tour?
Darren Clarke's declination to broadcast sheds a little light. I have no idea what resides in the heart of the Champions' fields, but I have long taken it that they like the conditions out there. And for any soon-to-be Langer, Jimenez, Couples, Els, Toms, Stricker, Goosen types that might want to be part of it with their reps, no one's sustainably paying Stephen Ames or Alker. But who knows, maybe that's what LIV will turn into - a 13th grade between regular Tour and Senior... you're near the end of a fine career... cash out.
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V. Kmetz
Regarding Sergio, I hate to tell him that Slugger White is the head of Rules for the LIV. After who knows how many years on the PGA Tour, he is going to rule the same way as the tour. They aren’t going to write their own rules.
I thought the tour’s decision on Clarke was questionable. How can a person who isn’t playing be bound by tour rules like that?
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The Slugger announcement was in November. Instead of all this infighting why not acknowledge this is great for the golf architecture fan? I’m exhausted by late afternoon 72 hole broadcasts.
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In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely. No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...
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V. Kmetz
Regarding Sergio, I hate to tell him that Slugger White is the head of Rules for the LIV. After who knows how many years on the PGA Tour, he is going to rule the same way as the tour. They aren’t going to write their own rules.
I thought the tour’s decision on Clarke was questionable. How can a person who isn’t playing be bound by tour rules like that?
Yeah, makes that "I can't wait to leave this Tour" comment in the middle of an adverse ruling, kind of hollow...
I don't know if the Champions player participation rules are the same as the Tour, but the spirit reverbs the same way...pick one man, you make your bed...lie in it... Hey, another symmetry with orange julius
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In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely. No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...
Have you seen the price of oil? The Saudis are killing it. The return on investment is something they couldn’t buy until they signed Phil and the narrative was changed. What a perfect storm they have found themselves in. A bunch of rich guys are losing hold of their power. Not the biggest challenge facing us today.
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In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely. No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...
Have you seen the price of oil? The Saudis are killing it. The return on investment is something they couldn’t buy until they signed Phil and the narrative was changed. What a perfect storm they have found themselves in. A bunch of rich guys are losing hold of their power. Not the biggest challenge facing us today.
I get it John,
But i'd like to think even they would be adverse to losing hundreds of millions indefinitely on a vanity golf tour that no one is watching full of mostly 'has beens' and 'never was' players...
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And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.
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And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.
Operative word in that last quip being "stars" ;D
P.S. You got me partially, I may tune in for the first event to check out the format and if they're going to use any XFL-like tactics to spice up the broadcast. But outside of that, given the list of courses they'll be playing, certainly won't be tuning in for them.
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And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.
Operative word in that last quip being "stars" ;D
P.S. You got me partially, I may tune in for the first event to check out the format and if they're going to use any XFL-like tactics to spice up the broadcast. But outside of that, given the list of courses they'll be playing, certainly won't be tuning in for them.
If we're going full XFL, which I support, who gets the "He Hate Me" jersey? Phil? Or DJ?
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It’s hard to care about some slippery footed kid that looks 40. No one will miss the Tour anymore than we miss Polo golf shirts.
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I wonder about that John.
I doubt I would, but there seems to be a large number of people that enjoy the Tour.
There will be a place for the top golfers in the world to play for a lot of money…whatever and wherever that is.
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8) ... and a place where the young hip golfer or golf fan can parlay something small into something big... sure the line will be interesting for the gamblers
just wondering if Norman's World Golf Tour concept hadn't been co-opted back in 90's by Finchem/Monahan to maintain PGA Tour control and morphed into the tour-stop like but no cut WGC events, would he still be so pissed to be the Great Disruptor of today?
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Maybe we shouldn’t be so fast to criticize DJ for getting close to the Saudis. Maybe he is just ahead of the curve in sucking up to the Kingdom.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-visit-saudi-arabia-country-vowed-treat-pariah-rcna31750 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-visit-saudi-arabia-country-vowed-treat-pariah-rcna31750)
Granting a presidential visit to Saudi Arabia would mark a significant reversal for Biden, who promised on the campaign trail to treat the kingdom as a “pariah” state after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, a Washington Post journalist and critic of the crown prince, at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul in October 2018. The CIA later concluded (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cia-concludes-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-ordered-killing-n937476)that Crown Prince Mohammed had ordered Khashoggi’s murder. The crown prince has denied any personal involvement in the killing.[/size][/font]
[/size]“They have to be held accountable,” Biden said in 2019 during an NBC News-Washington Post candidate debate.[/color]
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Gretzky played for the Oilers. Do you think DJ knows the difference?
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Gretzky played for the Oilers. Do you think DJ knows the difference?
Now that is funny
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Nobody has the moral courage to call this what it is? Come on! This is sports washing of the ugliest kind! The golf clubs letting these thugs use their course, their name, to promote this effort to make the Royal Family look like good guys is despicable. Where has the honor that once ruled golf gone?
Sports-washing never works. If anything, this has drawn continued attention to the Saudi human rights failures, as does the F1 race the Saudis now host. It will continue to, just as an Olympics in China or Russia helps point out their failings.
Question for the group: If this has been the Premier Golf League, from which the Saudis heisted the original plan, or some other company (say, Amazon) starting a golf tournament series right now, would there be the same offense taken to the concept? Is the idea as bad as the presenters?
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Jim, +100 to your last post.
I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.
The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat.
SMH....
Kalen and Jim,
I have no idea why they would voluntarily do it either but that is why most western countries have legislation to prevent or restrict companies/individuals from abusing whatever monopoly position they have. That I think was the point that Lou was making.
If you ignore for a moment the nature or identity of the different parties ie. that the Saudi's do many things that we in our liberal democracies find repugnant; the nationalistic feelings you might have for the PGA Tour; and the fact that many of the players are millionaires many times over, then you'll see that it is one party (the Tour) using their monopolistic position to restrain another party (the players) in how they may earn a living by endeavouring to prevent a third party (the Saudi's) from entering the market.
Adrian refers to the players having signed up to an agreement when they joined the Tour that restricts them playing in competing events. Again, ignore the fact that some of these players (not all) are very wealthy, and consider what they are being asked to sign up to. They basically sign up to a pact that says they give their image rights to help promote golf events along with the image of the event sponsors but in doing so aren't guaranteed a return, and in doing so are prevented from trying their hand elsewhere.
All the while the Tour, which I understand is set up as a charity, has a chief exec on many millions a year (presumably guaranteed) while sitting on funds of c.$1bn. I'm not sure that scenario would garner much sympathy in other walks of life.
Niall
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Maybe we could quit killing ourselves and our children before we judge another country over a revenge killing. At least that dude 100% knew his actions had put himself in danger. Our babies just go to school.
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Is it that the players are not being allowed to play elsewhere, or is it that they aren't being allowed to play elsewhere while staying on the PGA tour. I'm sure the PGA is not holding any gun to any player to stay. DJ is going to play. If the Tour's rules means that he won't be able to tee it up at next year's LA (insert corporate sponsor here) Open then that is the decision that DJ made.
Decisions have consequences. I'm sure if I started to accept money from a competitor for the same type of work I get paid for - my employer would hold me accountable.[size=78%] [/size]
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Is it that the players are not being allowed to play elsewhere, or is it that they aren't being allowed to play elsewhere while staying on the PGA tour. I'm sure the PGA is not holding any gun to any player to stay. DJ is going to play. If the Tour's rules means that he won't be able to tee it up at next year's LA (insert corporate sponsor here) Open then that is the decision that DJ made.
Decisions have consequences. I'm sure if I started to accept money from a competitor for the same type of work I get paid for - my employer would hold me accountable.
and you can bet the LIV contract was full of provisions....
Again, I'm noy judging anyone-they are free to do what they want,but there could be consequences, and the courts may well decide this.(no idea how that turns out)
But if I'm a sponsor, I'd prefer Rory over DJ, though some products might lean the other way. ;)
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This is the players tour. It was built and designed by them, for them. While they have handed off much of the administration and guidance to professionals...every move is made in their collective best interests.
Collective is a key word because surely Phil could have made more money if incentives were more weighted to the top end guys decisions have been made on the "one man, one vote" model and there are 100 times as many invisible guys in the 50 - 150 space than there are Phil Mickelsons.
I have a cousin who has worked as a club pro for most of the last 35 years but he did make it through Q School in the late 90's and had full status on the PGA Tour for the year. His on course earnings were about $30,000. Yep, 5 digits. Yet his endorsement and ancillary income was $300,000 based on his Tour Member status. Club and Apparel companies pay no name guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to play/wear their gear. Does the infrastructure that is The Tour get the benefit of delivering that? Afterall, they are the ones that run the tournaments and negotiate the contracts that make my cousin's hat and bag potentially profitable...
If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely! In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?
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This is the players tour. It was built and designed by them, for them. While they have handed off much of the administration and guidance to professionals...every move is made in their collective best interests.
Collective is a key word because surely Phil could have made more money if incentives were more weighted to the top end guys decisions have been made on the "one man, one vote" model and there are 100 times as many invisible guys in the 50 - 150 space than there are Phil Mickelsons.
I have a cousin who has worked as a club pro for most of the last 35 years but he did make it through Q School in the late 90's and had full status on the PGA Tour for the year. His on course earnings were about $30,000. Yep, 5 digits. Yet his endorsement and ancillary income was $300,000 based on his Tour Member status. Club and Apparel companies pay no name guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to play/wear their gear. Does the infrastructure that is The Tour get the benefit of delivering that? Afterall, they are the ones that run the tournaments and negotiate the contracts that make my cousin's hat and bag potentially profitable...
If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely! In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?
And all that money comes from us everyday golfers. What have we gotten in return that has earned our loyalty? All I ever got was a month of cart path only in the summer so we could host a Korn Ferry event where half the golfers can't beat me on any given hole half the time. No one watched, no one cared.
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It got you the ability to make that asinine statement with certainty...
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It got you the ability to make that asinine statement with certainty...
[/quote
to be fair, he's talking about a course where half the golfers can't finish half the holes.....so there's no real way to know
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Just rewatched Casino. The number of times Lester is painted as a "Country Club Hustler" is worth the watch. Pimp didn't paint a low enough picture. It's why I carry a vanity handicap.
I'd still take on the bottom half of a KFT event if I only had to play nine individual holes as good as their worst. My point being that I gave up my course for the best part of the summer for dudes getting paid that weren't worth the effort it took to watch for free. I know I'm not alone in hating the tour and am enjoying watching it's demise.
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Especially if you got to pick which holes after the fact, right John.
Hating the Tour is an interesting emotional response.
There will always be a Tour, don't get too excited. This one has just grown too big and bland for its own good.
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I guess I'm tired of making sacrifices for dudes who need to put on their big boy pants and go work for daddy like I did.
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
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If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely! In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?
Probably not the right question given that golf with one major tour and star power draw isn't very attractive even to a huge percentage of golfers.
Ciao
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To you and me, perhaps Sean...but to the golf viewing public, I think the proof is in the pudding.
They are playing for tons of money every week. That money ultimately comes out of our pockets.
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
I agree with this.
The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
I agree with this.
The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.
+1
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To you and me, perhaps Sean...but to the golf viewing public, I think the proof is in the pudding.
They are playing for tons of money every week. That money ultimately comes out of our pockets.
Well done then, I guess the NBA and NFL take even more money out of my pocket and I watch even less of those products. I am content to see chaos with tour golf in the slim hope that something worth watching will be the result.
Ciao
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
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A few of this board actually think that the over 40 participant in the LIV gives a flying armadillo about playing on the PGA Champions Tour after 50, when making what they will over the next year or two now ?
They'll take their multiple guaranteed millions and the associated Director of Golf position the well heeled backers of the LIV Tour locate for them and quietly enjoy their golden years.
I'm thinking that at least JK may consider my $0.02 somewhat on point.
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I think it's on point Bruce.
I believe those comments about the over 50 guys was in the context of LIV failing and these guys finding themselves with a great deal of earning potential left.
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I just don’t know what to make of the LIV tour. To be so PUBLICLY aligned with the Saudis is bothersome. For DJ to surprise RBC and skip their flagship tournament is extremely unprofessional.
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
Maybe. Whatever the agreements are with players is what they should enforce unless they think it harm the position of their players long term.
That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.
Ciao
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Jim, +100 to your last post.
I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.
The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat.
SMH....
Kalen and Jim,
I have no idea why they would voluntarily do it either but that is why most western countries have legislation to prevent or restrict companies/individuals from abusing whatever monopoly position they have. That I think was the point that Lou was making.
If you ignore for a moment the nature or identity of the different parties ie. that the Saudi's do many things that we in our liberal democracies find repugnant; the nationalistic feelings you might have for the PGA Tour; and the fact that many of the players are millionaires many times over, then you'll see that it is one party (the Tour) using their monopolistic position to restrain another party (the players) in how they may earn a living by endeavouring to prevent a third party (the Saudi's) from entering the market.
Adrian refers to the players having signed up to an agreement when they joined the Tour that restricts them playing in competing events. Again, ignore the fact that some of these players (not all) are very wealthy, and consider what they are being asked to sign up to. They basically sign up to a pact that says they give their image rights to help promote golf events along with the image of the event sponsors but in doing so aren't guaranteed a return, and in doing so are prevented from trying their hand elsewhere.
All the while the Tour, which I understand is set up as a charity, has a chief exec on many millions a year (presumably guaranteed) while sitting on funds of c.$1bn. I'm not sure that scenario would garner much sympathy in other walks of life.
Niall
Niall,
Nearly every professional sport gravitates toward one league where most of the best play.
NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, UFC, Premier League. etc...and of course the PGATour.
This will always be the case, even if that top league changes from time to time. So if you're gonna call all top professional leagues Monopolies, then so be it. And to think they are gonna welcome the LIV tour with open arms, smiles, and atta-boyz....well that's just naïve. To also think they're also going to pass on the fact that the Saudi's are funding it as a way to FUD it, then that would be silly of them too.
As far as I know, the PGATour has been supportive of competitive leagues elsewhere like the Euro Tour, Asian Tour, Canadian Tour, etc as well as the feeder tours. But its not unreasonable for them to want to remain the top dog.
P.S. And the fact remains, the PGATour is absolutely not mandating that golfers can't play elsewhere....
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.
Ciao
Sean,
The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world. Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world? Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.
And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?
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... more interested in the 23 yr old, than the over 40 guy...
doesn't anyone remember the AFL vs NFL pre-merger drama in the 60's? Player poaching and why Pete Gogolak or John Brodie became famous?
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Always has left the building. Remember when people went to work in the same office?
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.
Ciao
Sean,
The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world. Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world? Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.
And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?
Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.
All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?
Ciao
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But the NFL won't be sending it's players to help a Saudi Football League get up and running...
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.
Ciao
Sean,
The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world. Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world? Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.
And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?
Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.
All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?
Ciao
Sean,
Those are all valid points and agreed team sports and individual ones are different. However, I think there is an aspect to the PGA Tour using other tours as development and feeders. For example the top 30 finishers on Korn Ferry automatically get thier PGA Card, or if you win I think its 3 events, its an automatic promotion.
As to your question, I would ask that a different way. If the PGA Tour makes enough money by playing just in North America, why go anywhere else?
P.S. Going back to the LIV Tour. One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business. What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.
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P.S. Going back to the LIV Tour. One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business. What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.
Kalen
Not really. They aren't established the way PGA Tour are, and don't already have a virtual monopoly the way the PGA Tour have. All businesses need to invest time or money or both to get established, and few expect to make profit straight off the bat.
Niall
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
I agree with this.
The impact though will be in exemptions into those events if LIV events generate 0 points. A couple years down the road and the currently exempt type guy that is not a champion will struggle to get in unless the Tours agree to allocate points.
I also agree up to a point. The world rankings are decided by a board made up reps from the PGA Tour, other tours and R&A, the USGA, the PGA of America and Augusta National (thank you google). The PGA Tour therefore has a hand on the tiller so to speak and I dare say could persuade the others to not allocate ranking points for LIV events, at least initially.
However bear in mind the purpose of the World Rankings is to rank golfers playing in different tours so as to determine who are the best golfers and that the rankings were initiated by the R&A for that purpose so they could determine the automatic qualification for the Open.
If you continue to ignore a chunk of the world's best golfers because they play on the new tour then frankly the rankings aren't really worth very much in terms of determining who should qualify for the Open, the US Open, Masters etc provided you assume that those organisations who run the majors want to have the best golfers.
Players jumping ship to the LIV Tour doesn't automatically make them worse players.
Niall
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P.S. Going back to the LIV Tour. One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business. What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.
Kalen
Not really. They aren't established the way PGA Tour are, and don't already have a virtual monopoly the way the PGA Tour have. All businesses need to invest time or money or both to get established, and few expect to make profit straight off the bat.
Niall
Niall,
Certainly understand they are currently not one, just pointing out one of the key characteristics of how Monopolies operate. Another one is by either not following or banning labor laws and Saudi companies have a long history of dubious behavior in that area. Its certainly well within their rights to throw massive amounts of unsustainable money at this new league, but gives us another taste of how these guys will operate in some kind of future state...its already quacking like the proverbial duck before its first event.
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Right!
Don't let my position on this suggest I don't want a better viewing experience. I'm simply of the opinion that the PGA Tour is acting exactly how they should with regards to supporting players going to this tour.
As I've said, I firmly believe this will cause dramatic shifts in the entire professional golf viewing and participating experience going forward.
That said, the Tour has to some degree put themselves in a position to be attacked. The US Tour should have been making moves for a real world tour years ago. Their approach has been very conservative probably because they thought nobody would ever challenge their supremacy. Howece, with the increase of top flight foreign players since the 80s there is little excuse for such complacency.
Ciao
Sean,
The NBA has the vast majority of the best players from all over the world. Should there be an expectation that teams are located all over the world? Ditto for the NFL, MLB, and NHL.
And if you think there shouldn't be an expectation, then why would that be the case for golf?
Golf and team sports is not comparable. In the case of the NHL, it works closely through the draft and development of players with numerous pro and amateur leagues throughout the world. It's not quite the same thing as golf because there is no independent contractor aspect to hockey until you are free agent...but then a contract is quickly signed.
All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?
Ciao
Sean,
Those are all valid points and agreed team sports and individual ones are different. However, I think there is an aspect to the PGA Tour using other tours as development and feeders. For example the top 30 finishers on Korn Ferry automatically get thier PGA Card, or if you win I think its 3 events, its an automatic promotion.
As to your question, I would ask that a different way. If the PGA Tour makes enough money by playing just in North America, why go anywhere else?
P.S. Going back to the LIV Tour. One of the primary predatory practices of a Monopoly is to take losses for a specified period to put stress on a competitor(s) until they go out of business. What LIV is doing, with massive signing bonuses and payouts that will certainly put them in the hole for quite awhile, sounds awfully similar.
The Korn Ferry is owned by the PGA Tour.
How much is enough to make? Most businesses operate with the goal to increase profits.
Ciao
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... more interested in the 23 yr old, than the over 40 guy...
doesn't anyone remember the AFL vs NFL pre-merger drama in the 60's? Player poaching and why Pete Gogolak or John Brodie became famous?
That's exactly what we have here with the younger players (Piot, especially) playing. Supposedly Piot is getting $6 million in a signing bonus and $250,000 per start in addition to the prize money he wins. It's the golf equivalent of an AFL team signing someone under the goalposts after the Gator Bowl. And as Piot has never been a PGA Tour member, he can't be penalized.
If I'm Greg Norman, I would have had reps at the NCAA finals trying to get high-ranking graduating seniors to sign up for Portland and the other U.S.-based tournaments.
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
The Opens already have diluted fields. If they didn't, they'd be the PGA Championship. :) (Which is itself slightly diluted because of the 20 PGA pros.) And the Masters had a weaker strength of field than the Northern Trust in 2021.
If Augusta National wants to not invite DJ to the 2023 Masters, they won't invite him. Clearly, the goal of those events is not to "don't dilute the field."
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I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.
The Opens already have diluted fields. If they didn't, they'd be the PGA Championship. :) (Which is itself slightly diluted because of the 20 PGA pros.) And the Masters had a weaker strength of field than the Northern Trust in 2021.
If Augusta National wants to not invite DJ to the 2023 Masters, they won't invite him. Clearly, the goal of those events is not to "don't dilute the field."
I’ll put up $100 that says no player is excluded from a Major because of their participation in the LIV. I’ll let you know where to send the $$$.
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There are roughly 450 players in the NBA (30 teams, 15 players each, 13 eligible to play). The top 50 players earned between $20 Million and some $46 Million on the court annually. The average NBA player makes around $7.3 Million; the lowest $1 Million. Its commissioner reportedly made $10 Million pre-Covid.
Based on the last full year pre-Covid (2018-19), Rory was the only player to crack $20 Million, and only because he earned the $15 Million FedEx bonus. J.B. Holmes came in at #50 at $2.3 Million. Johnson Wagner at #150 made $668k. Mr. Monahans earns roughly $3 Million.
My understanding of PGA Tour governance is a bit different than the picture of a democracy painted here. Perhaps the Player Advisory Council works similarly to member advisory boards at corporately-owned country clubs where they "advise" and management/ownership throws them a bone and proceeds to do as it pleases on the big things.
Or maybe the Black-dominated players in the NBA are a hell of a lot smarter than their "white privileged" counterparts playing golf. BTW, I had an experience recently with a well-known Tour player on a TIO ruling which perhaps lends credence to this theory. Maybe the Player Advisory Council should meet with its NBA counterpart and explore best methods. I don't know what would scare the bureaucracy more, LIV or a proper professional players' union.
Anyways, basketball players go overseas to ply their trade and come back without anyone's panties getting in a twist. PGA and European Tour players go back an forth, and I am unaware of a rule that prohibits them from doing this if there is an event in their home tour. PGA Tour players sometimes play their state opens and they were free to play in the Middle East before and accept appearance money.
So, while I understand why the Tour is acting as it is, a) they got themselves into this fix by not spreading the wealth well enough, b) by pretending that those who signed on the dotted line can be dealt with more like employees than the independent contractors they claim to be, and c) by acting arbitrarily depending on who the player is and who is sponsoring an event. We have had unsavory sponsors in the U.S. (e.g. Stanford Financial) and there are far worse groups with their thumb on Golf's scale than the Saudis.
Though the PGA Tour is not a monopoly per se, it wants to act like one. Funny, I wasn't aware that predatory pricing was a common practice employed by monopolies as these, by definition, have no credible competition. I wouldn't argue that the Saudi's game plan is unsustainable- Greens and Lefties here may think that through sheer political power they will strand carbon in the ground, I suspect that this won't be the case and the Saudis will still be able to light their cigars with $100 bills for a few more decades. We might remember that Amazon went 14 years without turning a profit- and that is pricing below full costs, what some might mistake as predatory pricing when, in fact, is a common approach to gain a foothold (btw, I like my few loss leaders at the grocery store even though I know that they don't make a dent on the so-called transitory inflation- paid $4.27/gal for gas at Costco today, more than double the price just 18 months ago- those Russian bastards! ::) ).
The Tour, in fact, seems to be afraid that the upstart will draw away its players by offering more money than it is prepared to share with its members. It seems to prefer the current structure which tightly controls supply (who plays and where) while supporting a $Billion+ rainy-day kitty for the benefit of whom? The bureaucracy? For Pete's sake, the Tour is supposed to be a non-profit! Start spreading the wealth like other sports, let the players pay their income taxes, and even at $.50 on the $1, the temptation to jump ship will be diminished. And if you lose some marginal players, there are any number waiting to replace them- I live-scored for Mito Pereira last year on the Korn Ferry Tour and he damned near won the PGA just a year later! The bench is deep.
And yes, Niall, I was referring in part to the imbalance in bargaining power, the Tour vs. its individual members, and the governments' oversight even when all the Ts are crossed and the Is dotted. I am not a lawyer nor do I talk to lawyers who practice in the antitrust space, but it seems to me that lobbing the threat of a potential life ban is grossly excessive and could very well invite judicial action. Negotiate and let some of them play! Clean your own house, bake some cookies, and make it so very few would want to leave.
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I’ll put up $100 that says no player is excluded from a Major because of their participation in the LIV. I’ll let you know where to send the $$$.
I didn't say they wouldn't, only that your reasoning why they wouldn't ban people was poor.
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There are roughly 450 players in the NBA (30 teams, 15 players each, 13 eligible to play). The top 50 players earned between $20 Million and some $46 Million on the court annually. The average NBA player makes around $7.3 Million; the lowest $1 Million. Its commissioner reportedly made $10 Million pre-Covid.
Based on the last full year pre-Covid (2018-19), Rory was the only player to crack $20 Million, and only because he earned the $15 Million FedEx bonus. J.B. Holmes came in at #50 at $2.3 Million. Johnson Wagner at #150 made $668k. Mr. Monahans earns roughly $3 Million.
Hey Lou, how are things?
NBA income is $10bil+. Estimates of PGA Tour revenue are hard to work out due to investments on golf courses, and charity links to dodgy sponsorship but direct revenue from tv rights, ticket sales and sponsorship isnt going to get within 10% of what the NBA generates.
So, while I understand why the Tour is acting as it is, a) they got themselves into this fix by not spreading the wealth well enough,
A large driving force behind the new tours is actually the opposite of this. Top players such as Mickelson feeling that the wealth is being spread too far, that they don't want to subsidise no-name players who are pulling in $1mil+ a season whilst not directly generating any income for the tour. In terms of as a percentage of revenue, the amount of money the PGA Tour pays players is in the same ball park of other major US sports.
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The majors don’t have a dog in the hunt in the business dispute between the Tour and LIV. The only rational basis for a major banning a qualified LIV player would be the Saudi angle. I would be surprised if that happens.
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The director of the TV broadcast might have nightmares if players in multiple groups are in contention with different finishing holes caused by the shotgun start.
Other shotgun start problems - eighteen finishing holes; overwhelmed practice facilities with all competitors having the same start time; pace of play issues as it will only be a guesstimate until after Friday play. Will need a lot more cameras and camera crews. If they play in three-balls there will only be 18 groups, with more downtime for spectators.
Saudi oil money with gas currently at $US 8.15/gallon
From a golf architecture standpoint, does a shotgun start diminish an architect's routing, since only 1/18 will experience it on any given day?
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Lou D. -
The general tenor on this board is that PGA Tour pros are a pampered and spoiled bunch. Based on your comments, one might get the impression you think they are not spoiled and pampered enough. ;)
DT
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The majors don’t have a dog in the hunt in the business dispute between the Tour and LIV. The only rational basis for a major banning a qualified LIV player would be the Saudi angle. I would be surprised if that happens.
Jim
I kind of get what you mean however I don't agree that they don't have a keen interest as to how this plays out. Each of them want's the best players playing at their tournament (same as the PGA Tour and every other tour) and therefore need to work with whatever tour the players are signed up to.
At the moment I'm sure they are paying lip service to the status quo but I strongly suspect that if in 2 or 3 years time the LIV Tour is still going and attracting more players that they will either work to tweak the World Rankings or simply ignore them for the purposes of inviting players from the LIV.
Niall
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Each of them want's the best players playing at their tournament (same as the PGA Tour and every other tour) and therefore need to work with whatever tour the players are signed up to.
Again, that's not really true. There's nothing stopping the U.S. Open or British Open from adopting the same qualifying criteria as the Players or PGA. Heck, replace the 20 PGA Pros with "qualifiers" and you'd have a much stronger field than you do now.
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Competition for the PGA Tour can only be good. Better for viewers and pros.
I wonder the impact of LIV on the European Tour. Perhaps forcing a future merger with LIV?
Not much info on TV coverage. I’m looking forward to seeing what LIV has to offer viewers.
As was said in an earlier post, the market will decide.
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Dave
The PGA Tour have a stake in the former Euro Tour, now DP Tour. Therefore can't see the DP Tour breaking ranks just yet since in all practical terms it has become a junior partner to the PGA Tour.
Niall
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Each of them want's the best players playing at their tournament (same as the PGA Tour and every other tour) and therefore need to work with whatever tour the players are signed up to.
Again, that's not really true. There's nothing stopping the U.S. Open or British Open from adopting the same qualifying criteria as the Players or PGA. Heck, replace the 20 PGA Pros with "qualifiers" and you'd have a much stronger field than you do now.
Erik
Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field ?
Niall
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Lou D. -
The general tenor on this board is that PGA Tour pros are a pampered and spoiled bunch. Based on your comments, one might get the impression you think they are not spoiled and pampered enough. ;)
DT
Not sure that I'm an outlier, but there does seem to be a pattern.
I like PGA Tour golf a lot, and its composition of players, young, old and in between, from throughout the world. As a group, in comparison to other sports, artistic endeavors, and most professional stations, I think that they comport themselves well above average.
My attention to this whole matter has more to do with Phil's misstep originally, and how his position vis-a-vis who controls and benefits from the players' images and content seems to have been turned into something more insidious and personal. I am unaware that he was demanding a higher distribution of purses and other means of compensation based on performance. If he was, so near the end of his PGA Tour career, the benefits mostly inure to his successors. And while I believe that it takes all the players to make the Show successful, there is some merit to matching rewards in line with the 80/20 principle (Pareto).
I am less impressed with the Tour bureaucracy, its substantial "retained earnings", and what appears to be a lack of transparency in its financial structure (one of the things that impresses me about our club is the complete, detailed, audited financial statements we get each year- sunlight is a great disinfectant). I am sure that there are good reasons for its opaque structure; I just don't know that it benefits its broad membership or the consumer.
Now, one may ask, how is this any of my business. Well, the Tour operates as a non-profit, exempted from paying all sorts of taxes that even some charities can't escape (see linked article below). It also relies on thousands of unpaid volunteers to operate its events. I've worked several tournaments as a volunteer out of my own freewill. I'd like to see a better utilization of its proceeds outside the bureaucracy and a more competitive environment where its players, without being coerced, will choose to play most of its tournaments because the compensation is more commensurate with the quality of play.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2013/05/08/the-pga-tour-a-not-for-profit-money-machine/?sh=5b9f99de5733 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2013/05/08/the-pga-tour-a-not-for-profit-money-machine/?sh=5b9f99de5733)
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Kevin Na just posted a message on Instagram announcing his resignation from the PGA Tour.
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Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field?
They do.
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Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field?
They do.
Yes - but the fields for the Open and US Open are much more interesting and create better storylines.
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Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field?
They do.
Yes - but the fields for the Open and US Open are much more interesting and create better storylines.
Indeed. The open qualifying aspect of two majors is wonderful. Besides, who says strength of the field is that important especially given the somewhat subjective nature of world rankings? The field strength of majors is plenty good enough. We must remember that somebody made these events majors...not the organizers of the events themselves. So a certain degree of latitude as to who qualifies is most welcome as far as I am concerned. Its part of what make the majors different from one another.
Ciao
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Lou D. -
The general tenor on this board is that PGA Tour pros are a pampered and spoiled bunch. Based on your comments, one might get the impression you think they are not spoiled and pampered enough. ;)
DT
Not sure that I'm an outlier, but there does seem to be a pattern.
I like PGA Tour golf a lot, and its composition of players, young, old and in between, from throughout the world. As a group, in comparison to other sports, artistic endeavors, and most professional stations, I think that they comport themselves well above average.
My attention to this whole matter has more to do with Phil's misstep originally, and how his position vis-a-vis who controls and benefits from the players' images and content seems to have been turned into something more insidious and personal. I am unaware that he was demanding a higher distribution of purses and other means of compensation based on performance. If he was, so near the end of his PGA Tour career, the benefits mostly inure to his successors. And while I believe that it takes all the players to make the Show successful, there is some merit to matching rewards in line with the 80/20 principle (Pareto).
I am less impressed with the Tour bureaucracy, its substantial "retained earnings", and what appears to be a lack of transparency in its financial structure (one of the things that impresses me about our club is the complete, detailed, audited financial statements we get each year- sunlight is a great disinfectant). I am sure that there are good reasons for its opaque structure; I just don't know that it benefits its broad membership or the consumer.
Now, one may ask, how is this any of my business. Well, the Tour operates as a non-profit, exempted from paying all sorts of taxes that even some charities can't escape (see linked article below). It also relies on thousands of unpaid volunteers to operate its events. I've worked several tournaments as a volunteer out of my own freewill. I'd like to see a better utilization of its proceeds outside the bureaucracy and a more competitive environment where its players, without being coerced, will choose to play most of its tournaments because the compensation is more commensurate with the quality of play.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2013/05/08/the-pga-tour-a-not-for-profit-money-machine/?sh=5b9f99de5733 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2013/05/08/the-pga-tour-a-not-for-profit-money-machine/?sh=5b9f99de5733)
Lou,
You and I have been both critical of the Tour relying so heavily on unpaid volunteers to make tournaments run.
However, if the PGA Tour started compensating these volunteers, prize pools for players would almost certainly go down, not up...which it seems from your previous post you are implying player compensation should increase.
P.S. The NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. are all non-profits, so the fact that the Tour gets this benefit also is neither unusual or surprising.
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Kalen -
The NFL ceased to operate as a non-profit in 2015:
https://www.brysonlawfirm.com/news/122-touchdown-pay-up-nfl-is-a-nonprofit-no-more.html#gref
DT
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Yes - but the fields for the Open and US Open are much more interesting and create better storylines.
That's not the argument; I'm only pushing back against statements like "majors want the strongest possible fields." They clearly don't.
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All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?
{Clears throat} Canada here. We haven't been subsumed into the US quite yet.
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All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if the NFL and NBA eventually had international teams. If enough money can be made, why not?
{Clears throat} Canada here. We haven't been subsumed into the US quite yet.
Hilarious
Nice catch! ;D
P.S. Thank you David, I wasn't aware the NFL gave up thier's in 2015.
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Wayne:
If we ask nicely (we're Americans, we won't) can we subsume our northern neighbors into the US?
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Others besides Na have supposedly resigned as well. It is a tactic to be able to play in the U.S. Open. The Tour can't suspend a player that is no longer a member. The idea being that the USGA wouldn't be able to honor a PGA Tour suspension. I'm not sure they would have anyway.
Even if world golf points are given to LIV events, the current fields are small and don't have a lot of quality depth. As a result, the points won't be great. Couple that with only playing in a few events, and NA will see a big drop in his ranking by next year. He may not be eligible for any of the majors as a result. He'll have a bigger bank account.
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I was just accidentally exposed to about 30 minutes of a Champions Tour event. My God. Fat fucks in bucket hats running from a long puttered German Freddy Kruger. They are already dead.
The LIV will take any fresh meat that’s ever won a major. Sorry Charles.
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Greg - your post reminds me that I can count on one hand the number of tour players who say that "careers are defined by major championships" -- and that all of those are young and still in their primes, have already won at least one major title, and are (rightly so) media and corporate darlings who can strive for greatness secure in the knowledge that "the money will take care of itself". For all the rest, the vast majority of tour players, they are secure only in the knowledge that money will most definitely *not* take care of itself, and so are neither romantic about winning championships or sentimental about the reasons they play the game, nor all that much interested in aspiring to greatness and having their careers defined by majors, both of which must seem to them (probably rightly) as luxuries that they cannot afford and dreams that, to use an old fashioned phrase, are 'above their station in life'. Now, that's not what fans want to think about our sports stars, because we have no real stake in the matter and so prefer to happily indulge our romanticism and child-like hero worship -- but I can't really blame Kevin Na or Lee Westwood or DJ or even a young Mr. Piot for that.
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The fans want to watch people they know win. Tiger taught us that. No. Jack taught us that. Tiger reinforced it.
The LIV tour is the fans tour. We will soak it up like a ducks wing in Valdez.
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:D
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid. Most are happy to be part of the events. The Tour and the sponsors could be a bit more generous in terms of uniforms, food, and making it easier to serve, but these are very minor points. I am suggesting that less money should stay with the bureaucracy and more allocated to the players, and that the response to competition might be more consistent and measured. I also believe that the Tour's financial structure should be very transparent.
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Lou,
What do you think of a charity structure based on rich dudes playing in Pro ams? Should skipping work to play golf be a tax deduction?
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I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.
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Others besides Na have supposedly resigned as well. It is a tactic to be able to play in the U.S. Open. The Tour can't suspend a player that is no longer a member. The idea being that the USGA wouldn't be able to honor a PGA Tour suspension. I'm not sure they would have anyway.
Even if world golf points are given to LIV events, the current fields are small and don't have a lot of quality depth. As a result, the points won't be great. Couple that with only playing in a few events, and NA will see a big drop in his ranking by next year. He may not be eligible for any of the majors as a result. He'll have a bigger bank account.
Will anyone miss Kevin Na?
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Lou,
I agree with your last post entirely. I do think the Tour should certainly re-evaluate how it chops up the pie, including better benefits to the volunteers.
I just still think its entirely unreasonable to expect the Tour to be friendly towards a very direct threat like LIV. They are undoubtedly feeling the pressure, even if they don't admit it publicly, and the last thing they want to do is ban someone like DJ, even if they wouldn't care about banning a no name young guy or aging player.
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Others besides Na have supposedly resigned as well. It is a tactic to be able to play in the U.S. Open. The Tour can't suspend a player that is no longer a member. The idea being that the USGA wouldn't be able to honor a PGA Tour suspension. I'm not sure they would have anyway.
Even if world golf points are given to LIV events, the current fields are small and don't have a lot of quality depth. As a result, the points won't be great. Couple that with only playing in a few events, and NA will see a big drop in his ranking by next year. He may not be eligible for any of the majors as a result. He'll have a bigger bank account.
Will anyone miss Kevin Na?
Found this quote in an article on ESPN:
Na wrote. "If I exercise my right to choose where and when I play golf, then I cannot remain a PGA Tour player without facing disciplinary proceedings and legal action from the PGA Tour."
I'd be curious as to what legal action he is referring to....
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34036642/kevin-na-resigns-pga-tour-participate-liv-golf-series
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid. Most are happy to be part of the events. The Tour and the sponsors could be a bit more generous in terms of uniforms, food, and making it easier to serve, but these are very minor points. I am suggesting that less money should stay with the bureaucracy and more allocated to the players, and that the response to competition might be more consistent and measured. I also believe that the Tour's financial structure should be very transparent.
Lou, the entire PGA Tour expenses for salary are about 10% of their annual income. This is from their 2018 990 form. I don’t think that is excessive.
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Wounded Warriors should be so good.
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I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.
I don't recall what I received food-wise at PGA events as it's been a long time since I've volunteered PGA, but I think I received food gratis. The LPGA events I volunteer at provide breakfast and lunch gratis. The Curtis Cup did the same. They also opportunity to play the host club. I had no problem volunteering at PGA events. The time spent is well worth it to me and I think most people with the volunteer spirit don't have a need/desire to be paid. I've always paid for the uniforms and don't have a problem with that.
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The director of the TV broadcast might have nightmares if players in multiple groups are in contention with different finishing holes caused by the shotgun start.
Other shotgun start problems - eighteen finishing holes; overwhelmed practice facilities with all competitors having the same start time; pace of play issues as it will only be a guesstimate until after Friday play. Will need a lot more cameras and camera crews. If they play in three-balls there will only be 18 groups, with more downtime for spectators.
Saudi oil money with gas currently at $US 8.15/gallon
From a golf architecture standpoint, does a shotgun start diminish an architect's routing, since only 1/18 will experience it on any given day?
As of now, I don’t believe there is any sort of US TV contract at all for the Saudi events. I’m not sure about elsewhere.
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There is no U.S. cable/network television deal and at this late date, likely won't be, at least for London. Fox was negotiating, likely for FS1 or FS2 placement, but LIV wanted too much.
The LIV-produced telecast will be on YouTube. Jerry Foltz is one of the commentators.
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Will anyone miss Kevin Na?
Anyone, or the PGA Tour?
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid.
How many events do volunteers pay to be there?
Ryder & Solheim Cups are two.
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid.
How many events do volunteers pay to be there?
Ryder & Solheim Cups are two.
Almost all. You usually get a couple of shirts, a hat and maybe a jacket, plus food vouchers and free admission the rest of the week.
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The LIVWTF has no chance. It will fail worse than the USFL and WFL. I will stay up until 4 am west coast time to watch the British Open if an American is in contention but for a team exhibition event where the teams change every week, the top players get an appearance fee to play on the tour and the leading golfers are washed up Euro Tour guys plus Na and DJ, no chance. I would rather watch bowling or wash my truck. TV ratings drive pro sports and the LIV has no chance to draw an audience regardless of who payrolls it. :P
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Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field?
They do.
Erik
Beg to differ. The Players is pretty much based on PGA Tour members whereas the Open is based not only on the best of PGA Tour but also best of elsewhere. The PGA Championship is similar to Players in that it is very much slanted towards US based players also.
Niall
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I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.
I don't recall what I received food-wise at PGA events as it's been a long time since I've volunteered PGA, but I think I received food gratis. The LPGA events I volunteer at provide breakfast and lunch gratis. The Curtis Cup did the same. They also opportunity to play the host club. I had no problem volunteering at PGA events. The time spent is well worth it to me and I think most people with the volunteer spirit don't have a need/desire to be paid. I've always paid for the uniforms and don't have a problem with that.
I was not inferring that volunteers should be paid but rather their uniforms and food be covered.
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Lou,
If you want to see the full facts of the PGA Tour from their 990 form, go to the following:
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520999206/202023219349309777/full (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520999206/202023219349309777/full)
The "bureaucracy" has hundreds of people running the Tour as well as the Korn Ferry, MacKenzie, and Champions Tours. Some of the players are part of the bureaucracy as advisors and are amongst the highest paid. All in all the bureaucracy expenses doesn't seem huge given the $1.5B annual revenues. Following is a summary.
Total Revenue $1,534,021,881
Total Functional Expenses $1,461,249,307
Net income $72,772,574
Notable sources of revenue Percent of total revenue
Contributions $0
Program services $1,167,400,356 76.1%
Investment income $102,782,755 6.7%
Bond proceeds $0
Royalties $224,061,902 14.6%
Rental property income $55,413 0.0%
Net fundraising $0
Sales of assets $34,262,088 2.2%
Net inventory sales $919,421 0.1%
Other revenue $4,539,946 0.3%
Notable expenses Percent of total expenses
Executive compensation $27,500,490 1.9%
Professional fundraising fees $0
Other salaries and wages $94,266,037 6.5%
Other
Total Assets $3,384,025,893
Total Liabilities $2,149,896,019
Net Assets $1,234,129,874
Key Employees and Officers Compensation
Monahan Joseph W (Commissioner) $5,378,295
Streelman Kevin (Player Director) $2,033,174
Spieth Jordan (Player Director) $1,850,775
Price Ronald E (Chief Operating Officer) $1,600,089
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Bryan,
It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave. I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.
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Bryan,
It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave. I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.
If it’s listed as “compensation” it shouldn’t include winnings when they are independent contractors. Imo anyway.
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Bryan,
It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave. I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.
If it’s listed as “compensation” it shouldn’t include winnings when they are independent contractors. Imo anyway.
I know it’s crazy, but since they are on the board, it has to be shown as compensation to the board members. IRS rules I’m sure.
The other interesting thing is that the LLCs of the top money winners are shown in the 990 as contractors who got paid the most. The 2018 one shows the top contractor was one who built grandstands was #1 and Justin Rose’s LLC was second.
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Beg to differ.
I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion. Both Opens can sneak up there sometimes, but the PGA Championship almost always has the strongest fields simply because of how the field is built, and the Players often has a strong field as well. Certainly (primarily due to the size), the Masters is often not in the top four. Sometimes it's not in the top six or seven.
Again, the Opens don't have the goal of having the strongest fields. If they did, they'd use the OWGR or some other criteria. Instead, anyone who meets the qualifying criteria and have a good couple of rounds of golf at the right time can play in them.
I was not inferring that volunteers should be paid but rather their uniforms and food be covered.
There are reasons volunteers are charged a small fee (it typically doesn't fully cover the cost of their uniforms). And many events will offer free food.
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Beg to differ.
I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion.
Well, actually it is.
Niall
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Well, actually it is.
Nah. Look at the OWGR. And consider how the fields are built. The PGA primarily just goes off the game's best players. Some amateur who has a good day or two can play in an Open.
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Well, actually it is.
Nah. Look at the OWGR. And consider how the fields are built. The PGA primarily just goes off the game's best players. Some amateur who has a good day or two can play in an Open.
All rankings of this nature have a degree of subjectivity. No list can definitely tell me who the fifth best player in the world is at any given moment...as an example. Just because numbers are involved doesn't make the OWGR factual. It's an approximation based on criteria set by people.
Ciao
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All rankings of this nature have a degree of subjectivity. No list can definitely tell me who the fifth best player in the world is at any given moment...as an example. Just because numbers are involved doesn't make the OWGR factual. It's an approximation based on criteria set by people.
I understand that, but the OWGR is a fairly well accepted standard. Hence, it's not "really" a matter of opinion. An opinion is whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.
Both Opens have objectively weaker fields due to the very nature of how they build their fields: with qualifiers.
Go by Sagarin if you want, or some other sort of ranking: the PGA will almost always top the list. And again, my point is only to refute that the majors "want to have the strongest field." They don't. That's not a goal of theirs, or they'd have different qualifying criteria.
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I think Jim Coleman is on the right track.. The PGA Tour relies on TV revenues and if golf tv revenues become diluted then PGA Tour benefits, retirements etc all have an issue...and sponsors will not pay the same...the guys who really benefit here will be some of the guys on the Korn Ferry who get there sooner that they thought...JMO
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https://apnews.com/article/tiger-woods-sports-phil-mickelson-pga-championships-lanto-griffin-be72e844c4ffe496155b511db1cc278d (https://apnews.com/article/tiger-woods-sports-phil-mickelson-pga-championships-lanto-griffin-be72e844c4ffe496155b511db1cc278d)
Strongest field, according to this anyway.
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All rankings of this nature have a degree of subjectivity. No list can definitely tell me who the fifth best player in the world is at any given moment...as an example. Just because numbers are involved doesn't make the OWGR factual. It's an approximation based on criteria set by people.
I understand that, but the OWGR is a fairly well accepted standard. Hence, it's not "really" a matter of opinion. An opinion is whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.
Both Opens have objectively weaker fields due to the very nature of how they build their fields: with qualifiers.
Go by Sagarin if you want, or some other sort of ranking: the PGA will almost always top the list. And again, my point is only to refute that the majors "want to have the strongest field." They don't. That's not a goal of theirs, or they'd have different qualifying criteria.
Nope, the Open fields are subjectively weaker fields based on ever changing ideas. Hell, the OWGR is constantly changing its criteria. I know I had little faith in a system which had Tiger rated #1 up to Oct 2010 based on the 2009 season. Strength of field has no meaning for a major. It's an empty talking point.
Ciao
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Nope. … It's an empty talking point.
Whatever you say man. Look at the list of people who qualify for the U.S. Open tomorrow and tell me with a straight face that it's the strongest field you could put together. The 100th ranked player in the OWGR is almost surely objectively better than a qualifier from some random sectional qualifier in Connecticut (or whatever).
Each of them want's the best players playing at their tournament
Comments like this remain false. Their goal is not to get the "best players." Heck, it's not even the PGA's goal, or they wouldn't have 20 club pros playing.
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Strength of field has no meaning for a major. It's an empty talking point.
Ciao
It is, but it’s the PGA Championships claim for its position in the majors. Also the Player’s that it should be a major.
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Nope. … It's an empty talking point.
Whatever you say man. Look at the list of people who qualify for the U.S. Open tomorrow and tell me with a straight face that it's the strongest field you could put together. The 100th ranked player in the OWGR is almost surely objectively better than a qualifier from some random sectional qualifier in Connecticut (or whatever).
Each of them want's the best players playing at their tournament
Comments like this remain false. Their goal is not to get the "best players." Heck, it's not even the PGA's goal, or they wouldn't have 20 club pros playing.
It doesn't matter. The US Open will not be a better major if you drop the qualifier aspect of the event. It's a major, period. I don't understand what your point is. Nobody cares about strength of field for majors. Hell, the auto qualifiers love not having to go thru qualifying. The far more immediate issue is three majors in one country. I wish there was more of a qualifying element to the event, just as it was envisioned when started. Every major has its own identity.
The Players will become a major when it happens. I guess that will be when it's deemed important enough to be a major.
Ciao
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It doesn't matter. The US Open will not be a better major
That's an entirely different thing.
if you drop the qualifier aspect of the event. It's a major, period. I don't understand what your point is.
I don't know what you've been reading, man. My only point has been that the Opens (and the Masters) aren't "trying to have the strongest fields" (various versions of that). They're not.
"It's a major, period." What are you reading that makes you think you have to say something like that? Because nothing written here, by anyone, should prompt that kind of response. Nobody has debated whether the U.S. or British Opens are majors here.
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Erik
You seem to base your argument on whether the Open or US Open have the strongest fields on the R&A and USGA failing to simply adhere to the World Rankings when deciding their qualification criteria. As Sean has noted, and as much as the WR is a useful tool, it does throw up anomaly's from time to time. For example, who provides greater strength, the player who sits in the lower half of the world's top 100 due to having had a stellar season the year before but has rarely made a cut this year, or the player who is bang on form having made a number of top 10 finishes on some overseas tour ?
Then there are the qualifiers. Yes there may be some who "get lucky" to qualify and there are others who carry that form/luck into the championship and manage to get well up the leader-board, or in the case of Paul Lawrie in the Open and Michael Campbell in the US Open, actually end up winning.
So who out of that lot will add the most strength to the field ? You have your opinions and the R&A etc have there's, and that's all it is, opinions. Just opinions.
Niall
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Niall -
No, it is not just opinions. While all ranking systems are based on certain underlying subjective judgements, the World Rankings are the most objective, data-driven measure of player performance over time. Can you offer a better one?
That being said, one can certainly question how much "better" player #75 is than player #125. At some point the differences are de minimis.
There is nothing wrong with the qualifying system for either the US Open or the Open Championship. It certainly creates a field "representative" of the world of golf and allows for a Cinderella story every once in a while. But there is little doubt a certain number of players qualify each year who have little or no chance of competing on any of the established pro golf tours.
DT
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It's like a line from Yogi Berra: 'The PGA field is so good no one cares who wins it no more.'
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You seem to base your argument on whether the Open or US Open have the strongest fields on the R&A and USGA failing to simply adhere to the World Rankings when deciding their qualification criteria.
Some amateur, or a club pro, or whatever who has a good day today (for the U.S. Open qualifying) is not an objectively better player than a PGA Tour player who fails to qualify at a different site due to a bad bounce or whatever.
The comment was made in various forms that the Opens "try to have the strongest fields" and that's simply not true. I've coached people who have played in U.S. Opens, U.S. Women's Opens, U.S. Junior Ams, etc. They don't have the strongest fields. I could throw out ten matchups after today of a player (often a PGA Tour player) who failed to make the cut against a guy nobody's heard of who makes it in which nobody would reasonably bet that the "made it" player would out-play the "missed it" player over 50 rounds on various golf courses.
36 holes isn't enough to determine the strongest players. Sometimes the best players play at least a B game and get through, but sometimes a better player plays his B- game and a worse player plays his A+ game and beats him out. That doesn't make the worse player a "better player" overall, or create a stronger field.
Again, the point I'm making: the statement "the majors are trying to create the strongest field" (or variations) is false.
But there is little doubt a certain number of players qualify each year who have little or no chance of competing on any of the established pro golf tours.
Thank you.
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Erik,
I haven't read your book, but are you arguing against its premise that lowest score wins? The Opens are simply that, no coronations, tee it up and golf your ball into the hole, under the rules, and you qualify or not and only one wins out of thousands with the dream!
No one cares about absolute field strength or its lip service beyond tournament promoters and those in the gambol. Most fans just want to see who prevails under the pressure that is tournament golf and many just catch the highlights.
You've pounded your strength point repeatedly...
The LIV field and money to be made or missed is their business, and has to start somewhere... should be interesting
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I predict that the LIV experiment will fail--and many of the signed-up players will come crawling back and asking for reinstatement on the Tours or the Senior Tours. Agree or disagree?
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Your prediction that the LIV will fail is probably correct, but look at DJ, his career earning at 37 are $73m. He signs for $125 million. He as making $11 million per year from sponsors. I think LIV is probably a lifeline for players 37-44, entering the non prime of their years. Taking advantage of this one time opportunity to secure their future earnings, plus if eligible, play in the 4 majors. I think Ricky Fowler and Phil Michelson will both sign up, probably negotiating as I write this.
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Niall -
No, it is not just opinions. While all ranking systems are based on certain underlying subjective judgements, the World Rankings are the most objective, data-driven measure of player performance over time. Can you offer a better one?
That being said, one can certainly question how much "better" player #75 is than player #125. At some point the differences are de minimis.
There is nothing wrong with the qualifying system for either the US Open or the Open Championship. It certainly creates a field "representative" of the world of golf and allows for a Cinderella story every once in a while. But there is little doubt a certain number of players qualify each year who have little or no chance of competing on any of the established pro golf tours.
DT
Bingo..underlying subjective judgements. That's the truth...which means the OWGR is most certainly not objectively true. It is amazing what numbers people try to make ya believe.
Ciao
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Your prediction that the LIV will fail is probably correct, but look at DJ, his career earning at 37 are $73m. He signs for $125 million. He as making $11 million per year from sponsors. I think LIV is probably a lifeline for players 37-44, entering the non prime of their years. Taking advantage of this one time opportunity to secure their future earnings, plus if eligible, play in the 4 majors. I think Ricky Fowler and Phil Michelson will both sign up, probably negotiating as I write this.
Phil just announced he is playing.
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If they really do a shotgun start the betting will be more fun.
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I'm trying to imagine watching the LIV event on my computer or tablet, rather than the big screen TV, given that I watched not one shot of the Memorial this past weekend. I know the Saudis don't need my money, which is a good thing for them.
It is being reported today that Norman says that Tiger turned down an offer in "the high 9 figures" to play. I'm sure this endears Norman even more to his Saudi masters.
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It is being reported today that Norman says that Tiger turned down an offer in "the high 9 figures" to play. I'm sure this endears Norman even more to his Saudi masters.
If that's true, then good for Tiger for doing that. He's basically only going to play in the majors anyway, so leaving the tour really wouldn't have any effect on him economically. And even though he's surely very wealthy, this would have still been significant.
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It is being reported today that Norman says that Tiger turned down an offer in "the high 9 figures" to play. I'm sure this endears Norman even more to his Saudi masters.
If that's true, then good for Tiger for doing that. He's basically only going to play in the majors anyway, so leaving the tour really wouldn't have any effect on him economically. And even though he's surely very wealthy, this would have still been significant.
I wonder if they would have let Tiger use a cart?
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I'm trying to imagine watching the LIV event on my computer or tablet, rather than the big screen TV, given that I watched not one shot of the Memorial this past weekend. I know the Saudis don't need my money, which is a good thing for them.
It is being reported today that Norman says that Tiger turned down an offer in "the high 9 figures" to play. I'm sure this endears Norman even more to his Saudi masters.
Like 700,000,000? I find that difficult to believe.
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Phil's Apology and more...
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2022/6/6/mickelson-grabs-the-scary-amps-money-intends-to-still-play-majors (https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2022/6/6/mickelson-grabs-the-scary-amps-money-intends-to-still-play-majors)
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Niall -
No, it is not just opinions. While all ranking systems are based on certain underlying subjective judgements, the World Rankings are the most objective, data-driven measure of player performance over time. Can you offer a better one?
That being said, one can certainly question how much "better" player #75 is than player #125. At some point the differences are de minimis.
There is nothing wrong with the qualifying system for either the US Open or the Open Championship. It certainly creates a field "representative" of the world of golf and allows for a Cinderella story every once in a while. But there is little doubt a certain number of players qualify each year who have little or no chance of competing on any of the established pro golf tours.
DT
"the World Rankings are the most objective"
that will be your opinion then ;)
Niall
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I haven't read your book, but are you arguing against its premise that lowest score wins?
Still no. I've been clear about what I've been saying this whole time (that the majors are not "trying to gather the strongest field"), so if you still don't know what I'm saying, that's on you.
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Sean & Niall -
Can you offer a comprehensive data-based system of player performance globally that, in your opinions, provides a more accurate, more objective ranking? Can you tell us in what way the OWGR is flawed?
http://www.owgr.com/about (http://www.owgr.com/about)
DT
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Sean & Niall -
Can you offer a comprehensive data-based system of player performance globally that, in your opinions, provides a more accurate, more objective ranking? Can you tell us in what way the OWGR is flawed?
http://www.owgr.com/about (http://www.owgr.com/about)
DT
Nope, but you know that isn't the point. Because OWGR may be the best system doesn't mean it isn't based on subjective underpinnings. Otherwise, how in the world did Europe beat the US in all those Ryder Cups? How many times did we hear about "on paper the US....".
BTW... Fran Quinn qualifying at Brookline is pretty cool.
Ciao
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Sean & Niall -
Can you offer a comprehensive data-based system of player performance globally that, in your opinions, provides a more accurate, more objective ranking? Can you tell us in what way the OWGR is flawed?
http://www.owgr.com/about (http://www.owgr.com/about)
DT
David,
Some people prefer the Sagarin rankings better. I think the argument is they do a better job of reflecting recent form and strength of field.
https://rankings.golfweek.com/rankings/default.asp?T=world (https://rankings.golfweek.com/rankings/default.asp?T=world)
One example of the owgr not necccesssarily proving a strong field.
Matthew Wolff for example has been completely out of form and a 500/1 non factor in the majors this year. Has recently dropped out of top 50 owgr and is about 200th in the Sagarin rankings which is a far more accurate representation of his form. Any major that replaced him with a qualifier would have a stronger field.
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You have to think with the recent string of PGA Tour resignations that the organization is reeling. It will be interesting to see what kind of public relations tact the PGA Tour takes. Finally I don’t think there was much doubt that Fowler would break ranks after DJ announced his intentions.
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It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend. Is this a big negative to its chances of success? Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?
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It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend. Is this a big negative to its chances of success? Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?
Not complicated. I'm planning to watch on my TV using YouTube on Roku. Most of my TV viewing is streamed.
It will be interesting to see how LIV is covered: commercials, Trackman, stats, number of cameras, etc.
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i was thinking about LIV as I was driving this morning and certain things stand out. No cut, 3 rounds and shotgun start. With the shotgun start, everyone gets the same draw, same weather, same greens, same wind/rain, no waking up in the middle of the night to prepare. No waiting around all day if your in contention. Much easier life for the pro golfer, more consistent sleep patterns, I don't know if it will be less stressful, certainly with no cut, that takes alot of the pressure off. I don't think I like the change to 3 rounds.
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It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend. Is this a big negative to its chances of success? Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?
Less complicated, than a normal weekends golf viewing, for me.
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Lou,
What do you think of a charity structure based on rich dudes playing in Pro ams? Should skipping work to play golf be a tax deduction?
As you probably know (and are baiting me), the politics of taxation make my Galician blood boil.
In general, I think that the fairest tax is one that is broadly applied, next to impossible to avoid, and levied at the lowest possible rate to raise the necessary revenues for a frugal, effective government. IMO, current income is the best base to apply this broad, minimalist rate.
In my world, charity would still be a highly-valued societal trait, one that is best done quietly, but for those who need to broadcast their extraordinary virtue by attaching their names to roads, buildings, parks, foundations, etc., all is good. Results are what counts after all. Of course, all charitable contributions are done AFTER tax, i.e. zero deductions from income of any type.
The application of taxes to property is also of great interest as it creates a variety of incentives and disincentives which are often overlooked. In Lou's world, all properties, whether they'd be a TPC course, a church, a government building, our homes, our places of work, etc. would be included in the tax base and no matter what the tax status is of its owner, they would be required to pay those property taxes. Afterall, in may states, property taxes are a main source of revenues to fund public education, and what is more important than our precious children!
IMO, it is unfair for my ISD to remove 40 acres of prime commercial land for a typical high school from the tax rolls and shrinking the base, forcing the remaining taxpayers to take up the slack through a higher (mill) rate. Surely schools would have to consider just how big their Taj Mahals need to be if they had to include ad valorem taxes in their operating budgets. Ditto for churches like the one I attend which is building its fourth area campus (circa $20 Million?) while its other three campuses seldom reach more than 65% occupancy. Better asset utilization is achieved, I think, by incurring the full costs of decisions.
How the PGA Tour maintains its non-profit status with all its many opaque businesses and enviable balance sheet is beyond my understanding. I do wonder who benefits most by this special treatment. At least the players pay huge income taxes including in those states where they play but don't reside there.
JVB-
I assume that Tour employees are paid based on committee and consultant recommendations which reflect market levels suggested by surveys. I am ok with all that. And perhaps I don't understand the need for such high levels of assets, hopefully properly allocated toward earning high tax-advantaged income as a buffer for an unforeseeable future catastrophe.
My preferences: sweeten the pension pot for past players who helped make the Tour such a success; review the purse structure to see if compensation is commensurate with that of other sports after considering the differences in income streams; be a bit more generous to the volunteers by improving such simple things as required uniforms, basic food, and scheduling.
Before Phil's tongue got loose and Norman doubled-down on his competitive league, somebody might ask why bother fixing the PGA Tour since it seems to be at historic peak performance. It may resist change and opening up, but I wouldn't be so sure that this current challenge will whither quickly and things go back to normal. All organizations benefit from continual assessment with an overriding objective to always improve. Having watched Colonial CC in person recently reduced to hitting greens out of the rough with mostly wedges offers one such opportunity: bifurcation of balls and clubs for tournament play.
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Sean -
Using the results of the Ryder Cup matches to discredit the OWGR (or the Sagarin if you prefer) is a weak argument at best given that a) the matches are held every other year b) it is a match play event and c) 2/3's of the matches are either four-ball or foursomes. It would be a bit like ranking the best tennis players in the world based on who wins the doubles tournaments. :)
If those rankings are suspect, what are we to make of the constant debate/discussion here of golf course ratings/rankings, which are based on subjective judgements made with little or no statistical/quantifiable data?
The former are almost nuclear science compared to the musings of the latter. (IMHO ;) )
DT
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Question … what’s the TV companies position on this?
I ask as I noticed that Sky have announced they’ve extended their deal with the US PGA Tour.
Atb
PS - Wasn’t there ‘team’ pro tennis for a while back in the 1980’s. What became of it?
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i was thinking about LIV as I was driving this morning and certain things stand out. No cut, 3 rounds and shotgun start. With the shotgun start, everyone gets the same draw, same weather, same greens, same wind/rain, no waking up in the middle of the night to prepare. No waiting around all day if your in contention. Much easier life for the pro golfer, more consistent sleep patterns, I don't know if it will be less stressful, certainly with no cut, that takes alot of the pressure off. I don't think I like the change to 3 rounds.
The whole format is uninteresting -- it reminds me more of an exhibition than a golf tournament.
I haven't seen or heard anything that makes it sound like it will be fun to watch. If they were playing on great golf courses that might be enough to watch even with the boring format, but as is, it's just going to be guys playing mediocre courses with very little on the line.
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Question … what’s the TV companies position on this?
I ask as I noticed that Sky have announced they’ve extended their deal with the US PGA Tour.
Atb
PS - Wasn’t there ‘team’ pro tennis for a while back in the 1980’s. What became of it?
No TV outlet with PGA Tour or DB World (European) Tour connections is carrying the LIV Golf telecasts. LIV hired the same company that produces DB World telecasts to produce its telecasts, from mobile units to 50 cameras, etc. LIV hired its own announce crew and producer/director. YouTube and the LIV website will carry those telecasts.
YouTube, which many "smart" TVs can get via a home's Internet server, actually has pretty good reach. Its record for live tune-in is over 8 million for the guy who jumped from the edge of space back to earth a few years ago. Now, if Greg Norman does that, he might get a similar audience.
World Team Tennis, the brainchild of Billie Jean King, still exists, though not as a full-scale league (Chicago Aces, Boston Lobsters, etc.).
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"This sounds more like an exhibition than a golf tournament."
To the extent this is true, it makes it more difficult to count the results in the World Golf Rankings, which make it less likely that participants will qualify for majors.
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Thanks Tim
Atb
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World Team Tennis website:
https://wtt.com/
There is no info to indicate WTT will be operating in 2022, but maybe it will start up again in the fall.
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It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend. Is this a big negative to its chances of success? Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?
Complicated???
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"This sounds more like an exhibition than a golf tournament."
To the extent this is true, it makes it more difficult to count the results in the World Golf Rankings, which make it less likely that participants will qualify for majors.
That's going to be a serious issue for the players that made the leap. They're small field events without many top players; the available OWGR points will be pretty small. Since they can't play in normal PGA Tour events and there are only 8 of these events with fewer points available, it seems almost inevitable that the OWGR of these players will plummet.
That will potentially keep them out of the majors (as you mentioned), except for the guys who are already exempt for other reasons.
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If there were a team concept which the top 48 players in the world played, and it were sponsored by some generic multi-national, would there be interest?
I suspect yes.
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If you want to know about the events and TV coverage try the LIV site at https://www.livgolf.com/
There seems to be a lot of non-golf activity. I wonder how many will be attracted by that?
What's the over-under on attendance at the first event? Has it been promoted in the UK?
Will their servers crash from demand for the video feed.
How many will stay around to 7 pm for the après golf concerts?
There is 5 times as much prize money for the individual competition as there is to the team competition. The team competition seems to be a decided second fiddle.
Oh, and they're looking for volunteers.
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I don't think anybody knows what's going to come next in this battle, but there are a couple of things I haven't heard mentioned much.
Let's imagine half of the top 50 OWGR list bails and goes to LIV. With a field of 48, in a shotgun start, where does that leave 25 players who aren't stars? And how do they decide whether #48 on the OWGR list is "better" for the future of LIV than, say, Poulter or Piot? (We all know where Chase Koepka, Peter Uihlein, Richard Bland, etc., etc. fit.)
These guys who are joining up keep saying they want to "be able to play when and where I choose." Does anyone really think that when they take tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars from the organizers they still get to NOT play in the events?
As far as watching the golf, the current system of sending leaders out last, and keeping score over and under par is completely TV-driven that was developed over several decades. (Thank you Cliff Roberts, IIRC.) It's lead to massive crowds and grandstands around the finishing holes, because that's where the drama occurs.
How will it play with viewers and on-site spectators when there are players finishing simultaneously on 18 different greens? Imagine three players tied at -15 with one hole to play, they are on the tee at 18, 14 and 7. Put yourself in the shoes of the TV crew deciding what to put on the screen...then go take a valium.
On the issue of majors, every one of them currently uses OWGR rankings for qualification in some way. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme, so it could be changed at any time. But if they do keep it, and even if the LIV events do get points, those points are based on how many of the top 200 are playing in an event. The current field isn't going to be piling up the points. (By the way, LIV applied for OWGR points some time ago.)
For the PGA Tour, a worst-case is that a big bunch of marquis names bolt, diluting your product and making half you tournaments about as valuable to TV and sponsors as the next Korn Ferry event. But that might not be all roses for the LIV folks, either. Their list of "members" (employees?) has to be relevant, interesting, and perceived as the cream of the crop.
But are eight 54-hole, shotgun-start events really going to maintain the status of the players as the best-of-the-best? And a couple of years from now when it's obvious that these guys have really lost their edge, who gives a crap about the tour?
Suppose Phil, et.al. get what they want, the ability to pick and choose where they play, and that means they play all eight LIV events plus whatever their aging bodies can handle. They play in whatever majors they can get into and a a couple of PGA Tour events, where they get their asses handed to them by some young, hungry, 20-somethings. Does LIV dump them all in favor of those young guns?
And at that point does the PGA Tour become a feeder tour for LIV? And what of the other, worldwide "feeder tours?"
I have no problem with Monahan doing whatever he thinks necessary to protect his product. Even though I think golf on TV is impossibly boring and barely worth a few minutes of my time outside of the majors, where seeing pro golfers face their own mortality, figuratively speaking, is delightful.
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
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Sean -
Using the results of the Ryder Cup matches to discredit the OWGR (or the Sagarin if you prefer) is a weak argument at best given that a) the matches are held every other year b) it is a match play event and c) 2/3's of the matches are either four-ball or foursomes. It would be a bit like ranking the best tennis players in the world based on who wins the doubles tournaments. :)
If those rankings are suspect, what are we to make of the constant debate/discussion here of golf course ratings/rankings, which are based on subjective judgements made with little or no statistical/quantifiable data?
The former are almost nuclear science compared to the musings of the latter. (IMHO ;) )
DT
Hey, I didn't introduce these stats. Pundits etc are the ones using them to talk about the RC. I am merely pointing out the limitations of the so called facts of OWGR. Call it what it is...a list based on underlying opinions. To pass this off as some sort of truth is a complete misrepresentation and numbers guys know it.
You won't find me suggesting the course rankings are anything but suspect.
Ciao
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
I'm curious about this position Brian. If you were a stakeholder of the PGA Tour, how could you not feel threatened?
Are you limiting your view to the current roster of players? I'd suggest that's a mistake. The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.
As of this moment, Wednesday June 8th, 8:30 EST USA, I've heard Fowler, BDC and Patrick Reed have jumped. These may be false, but it seems with each bit of smoke, there's fire on this deal.
So, That makes 5 or 6 of the 20 most attention grabbing players over the last 10 years moving over. If that doesn't warrant some concern, I don't know what does...
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.
I agree that some players will wait until the off-season but guys are jumping ship in real time and will continue to do so. Money talks!
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
I'm curious about this position Brian. If you were a stakeholder of the PGA Tour, how could you not feel threatened?
Are you limiting your view to the current roster of players? I'd suggest that's a mistake. The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.
As of this moment, Wednesday June 8th, 8:30 EST USA, I've heard Fowler, BDC and Patrick Reed have jumped. These may be false, but it seems with each bit of smoke, there's fire on this deal.
So, That makes 5 or 6 of the 20 most attention grabbing players over the last 10 years moving over. If that doesn't warrant some concern, I don't know what does...
Patrick Reed jumping is the best news I've heard concerning LIV if thru. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.........
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Here is how to watch it:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/liv-golf-london-tee-times-tv-coverage-live-stream-more-to-watch-in-usa/ar-AAYdCO2?cvid=c67c6724b9ca48b584a015f886c22163
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
I'm curious about this position Brian. If you were a stakeholder of the PGA Tour, how could you not feel threatened?
Are you limiting your view to the current roster of players? I'd suggest that's a mistake. The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.
As of this moment, Wednesday June 8th, 8:30 EST USA, I've heard Fowler, BDC and Patrick Reed have jumped. These may be false, but it seems with each bit of smoke, there's fire on this deal.
So, That makes 5 or 6 of the 20 most attention grabbing players over the last 10 years moving over. If that doesn't warrant some concern, I don't know what does...
Looks like you are correct and it makes sense for all 3 of these guys, Bryson has a wrist injury and who knows if that will ever heal. I had surgery on my wrist and it never healed. Reed's game is questionable, I wonder if he is hurt too. Ricky Fowler has lost his game, he has tried so hard and at least for him and maybe everyone who is jumping, this secures their financial future. Who among us wouldn't do it?????
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Given the high profile golfers LIV is attracting, I kind of wish they wouldn't go all MTV contrived entertainment with the format. The shotgun start is fine, as is the no-cut policy. But the rest of it ... actually detracts for me. If they went with a small field, no cut, shotgun start, three-day tourney with the golfers currently in their stable ... and on interesting courses ... I would almost certainly watch. Reminds me of the fall silly season back in the day when Freddy would make all his money.
The big names making the jump I think forces the Tour to back down from their previous ultimatum. And as a result, Phil's stated goal is achieved. It was ugly getting there, but in the end I think he is going to get there.
As a side note, Rickie jumping is curious to me. I feel like these days he makes most of his income in endorsement deals. And companies thus far have been quick to yank endorsement deals with those who join LIV. I'm assuming he got enough upfront cash to offset the loss.
I do wish the LIV stop in Boston was a couple of years away, so that it could be played on the C&C renovation at the International. Would be cool to see what's going on there.
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The big names making the jump I think forces the Tour to back down from their previous ultimatum.
I'm not sure it does. LIV has a stated goal of 14 events a year, and I'm certain they're going to expect their players to play in all 14 considering the money they're getting upfront.
With the 4 majors (assuming they qualify), that's 18 events. Most top players don't play much more than that in a year as is -- I don't think there's any chance they would then play in an additional 11 events to hit the PGA Tour minimum.
Those guys aren't going to play in 30 events a year.
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I don't believe this is at all about Sports Greenwashing, after all it hasn't gone well so far has it. ;D They can't be enjoying the attention on their Human Rights record at all.
It's an attempt to buy into big time sports and 'own' top level professional golf. With tourisms decline due to Covid, is "Sports" now the Worlds biggest 'industry? IS there any other high profile sport which offers the chance to buy the whole thing?
In future the Saudis will just be the bankers and all the talk will be of The Liv tour. If they can get through the first year(and I think they can) it could become unstoppable. Will they expand into Seniors Golf? Why not, they'll already 'own' half the field. But will they support lower tours or raise money for local charities, probably not so much. Like other sports today the rewards will flood to the peak and the rest of the field won't share. If you are one of todays senior (i.e. past your peak) players and agree with this analysis, its a 'no brainer' to pick up the hard cash offers that are such easy pickings. It's the next generation of defectors that will scare the Status Quo.
Be careful what you wish for...
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This great scene from No Country For Old Men seems to encapsulate the way I feel about this whole thing: weary, confused, depressed. The acknowledgment of what big money causes people to do and "the dismal tide" underpinning it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTAOsRki0E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTAOsRki0E)
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Here is how to watch it:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/liv-golf-london-tee-times-tv-coverage-live-stream-more-to-watch-in-usa/ar-AAYdCO2?cvid=c67c6724b9ca48b584a015f886c22163 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/liv-golf-london-tee-times-tv-coverage-live-stream-more-to-watch-in-usa/ar-AAYdCO2?cvid=c67c6724b9ca48b584a015f886c22163)
Or
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuC-Is0pVH9RudfZJw-LSmw/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuC-Is0pVH9RudfZJw-LSmw/videos)
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With the announcement of additional players joining the fold, one thing occurred to me, a common thread amongst some of them.
That thread being that they're not exactly well liked inside the locker room of tour events.
DJ-drug issues and marital affairs
Phil-has been referred to as FIGJAM for years by other players
Reed-kicked off UGA's team for stealing from his teammates. Bubba was seen openly mocking him last week at the Memorial.
BDC-slow play and pompousness. ANGC is a par 68 for me.
Na-slow play
Sergio-spitting in the cup; destroying greens and bunkers
I wonder if there's an element of being ostracized on tour that made these guys think, it's not just the money, but I could go somewhere else where maybe I could be accepted a little better, get a fresh start.
To me, it's starting to look like the Island of Misfit Toys tour.
I'll tell ya though, that picture of Phil and DJ that's been making its way around the internet is downright horrifying. You can't tell me those boys were even close to sober when that was taken.
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I'll tell ya though, that picture of Phil and DJ that's been making its way around the internet is downright horrifying. You can't tell me those boys were even close to sober when that was taken.
Wouldn’t you have a couple of cocktails knowing the payday that was coming your way? Who cares if they were sober?
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What picture are you talking about?
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
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I'll tell ya though, that picture of Phil and DJ that's been making its way around the internet is downright horrifying. You can't tell me those boys were even close to sober when that was taken.
Wouldn’t you have a couple of cocktails knowing the payday that was coming your way? Who cares if they were sober?
Of course I would. Just looks like a bit more than a couple of cocktails, and specifically more than just cocktails. More like they're higher than hell. I don't give a crap if they are sober or not; this picture speaks volumes.
Here's the picture:
https://sports.yahoo.com/us-open-will-permit-phil-mickelson-dustin-johnson-other-liv-players-204552002.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/us-open-will-permit-phil-mickelson-dustin-johnson-other-liv-players-204552002.html)
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
It’s a labor issue and labor won.
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary I agree with you.
In time I think the PGA Tour will sit down with the LIV and the two will co exist.
They will agree on about 8 events per year throughout the globe, and all those 'holyier than though" players currently condemning the LIV will jump on board, fill their own pockets with the LIV guaranteed cash and conveniently forget what they had previously said.
I think the lure of the money will continue to attract more players, feedback from those already committed will be positive to encourage more defections and then the PGA T our will be forced to listen to those who want change on the tour.
I may be wrong, but either that will be the scenario, or the PGA Tour starts a guarantee of income very week cut made or not.
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
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As a side note, Rickie jumping is curious to me. I feel like these days he makes most of his income in endorsement deals. And companies thus far have been quick to yank endorsement deals with those who join LIV. I'm assuming he got enough upfront cash to offset the loss.
Rickie hasn't jumped (yet?).
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
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Another way to watch, at least the final round, if you live in Canada or on the U.S.-Canada border near Toronto: CHCH-TV 11 Hamilton. Carried on cable and satellite across Canada and available over-the-air from its Hamilton transmitter. It's replacing infomercials.
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
...and i beleive it was ABC Sports who had the big money behind the AFL, talk about competition... and then there's Joe Namath throwing his frozen ropes
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
The AFL didn't poach established star players from the NFL. Blanda was considered washed up when he was signed by the Oilers in 1960. The AFL caused a bidding war for rookies from college like Namath which is why the NFL did the merger because they were paying too much for rookies. The LIV compares more with the USFL and WFL which were failures.
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
...and i beleive it was ABC Sports who had the big money behind the AFL, talk about competition... and then there's Joe Namath throwing his frozen ropes
ABC had the first AFL contract from 1960-1964. NBC threw the big money at it from 1965-69, allowing the Jets to sign Namath and so on.
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
The AFL didn't poach established star players from the NFL. Blanda was considered washed up when he was signed by the Oilers in 1960. The AFL caused a bidding war for rookies from college like Namath which is why the NFL did the merger because they were paying too much for rookies. The LIV compares more with the USFL and WFL which were failures.
I'd suggest Westwood and Poulter are in the Blanda mode, and probably Mickelson too. Aside from last year's PGA, he's been a rumor on leader boards when he was playing.
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
Is anyone taking this worse than Geoff Shackelford?
Have always enjoyed Geoff views on the game of golf, but he seems to be getting very wound up lately about this "LIV Madness"
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
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I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
Is anyone taking this worse than Geoff Shackelford?
Have always enjoyed Geoff views on the game of golf, but he seems to be getting very wound up lately about this "LIV Madness"
Wait till the Ryder Cup becomes season 5 of American Idol.
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
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The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.
The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.
There was a similar result in the next decade with the ABA and WHA. They ended up getting several franchises merged in. I don't remember the details of the ABA but the WHA lured away some big name players, most notably Bobby Hull.
And in the ABA the Silnas brothers made the best deal ever in sports: https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2014/01/07/the-nba-finally-puts-an-end-to-the-greatest-sports-deal-of-all-time/?sh=f5e574f0ba3b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2014/01/07/the-nba-finally-puts-an-end-to-the-greatest-sports-deal-of-all-time/?sh=f5e574f0ba3b)
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Rickie hasn't jumped (yet?).
No, not officially. But literally every single player who was rumored to be making the jump has, in fact, made the jump. Even when they previously denied it (looking at you, BDC). And now rumors are that Bubba and Matt Wolff are headed to LIV as well.
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Below is from the USA Today article on PGA Tour members playing in the LIV Event:[/size]
"Players who have resigned their PGA Tour membership won't be eligible for the FedEx Cup Playoffs and will not be allowed to play in PGA Tour events as "a non-member via a sponsor exemption or any other eligibility category."[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]I call BS on the last part since if Wells Fargo or another long-time corporate partner of The Tour wanted DJ, Bryson or a certain Mr. Woods (if he so chose to cross the line) in their event and The Tour said no to a sponsor exemption; if I were the CEO I'd take my sponsorship money and go and play in another sand box.[/color]
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Has anyone heard anything about how LIV intends to handle club sponsors?
I understand that the big manufacturers are not interested currently, but if a big slice of the top players jump to LIV, hard to see them staying away forever.
It occurs to me that one way LIV could leverage all of the guaranteed money they are allegedly throwing around is adopting some type of new model where the LIV tour gets a healthy chunk (if not all) of the club sponsor money. Not only would this approach directly recoup some revenue, it could give LIV great leverage in the equipment market.
The current PGA model- with players keeping the club money- is basically an accident of history. No reason to assume that LIV adopts it. Has anyone heard anything on this topic?
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
Sean:
If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary
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No, not officially. But literally every single player who was rumored to be making the jump has, in fact, made the jump. Even when they previously denied it (looking at you, BDC). And now rumors are that Bubba and Matt Wolff are headed to LIV as well.
Rickie told one of his close friends on Tour just a few days ago he wasn't going.
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"No, this isn't good for golf"
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-reality-show-pga-tour?utm_medium=email&utm_source=060922&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM28565&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
The Saudi's have a huge mountain of Cash and it's source is looking to have limited future. they need to ensure future streams of income and they share Warren Buffets problem, its not easy to find places to make BIG investments that have the potential to grow. (It's a long time since I read up on the Boston Consulting Group Matrix but this seems like a case study).
In the short term they can invest HUGE money in the hope that at some point the returns will be significanlty huge.
PS Think Greg has told the Saudi's that the importance of Majors is overrated? ;)
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
Sean:
If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary
US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage of idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.
Ciao
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An observation...
The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.
Just saying.
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An observation...
The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.
What was DJ’s issue? And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.
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What was DJ’s issue? And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.
Technically then neither was Oakmont.
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An observation...
The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.
What was DJ’s issue? And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.
No, I was on his side on that one. His rules issues were off-course.
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;D
Wayne that Snippet about the Silnas Bros was awesome
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
Sean:
If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary
US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.
Ciao
Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.
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It gets more baffling by the day
In a letter sent to the agents of Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson, Bryson DeChambeau, Patrick Reed and Kevin Na, 911familiesunited.org expressed their outrage towards the players for competing in the Saudi-backed events.
“As you may know, Osama bin Laden and 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers were Saudis,” wrote the organisation’s national chair Terry Strada, a mother of three whose husband, Tom, was on the 104th floor of the north tower of the World Trade Center during the attacks.
“It was the Saudis who cultivated and spread the evil, hate-filled Islamist ideology that inspired the violent jihadists to carry out the deadly 9/11 attacks.
“And, most egregiously, it is the Kingdom that has spent 20 years in denial: lying about their activities, and cowardly dodging the responsibility they bear. Yet these are your partners, and much to our disappointment, you appear pleased to be in business with them.
“Please, do not insult our loved ones’ memories and take the pathetic position, as one of your foreign colleagues did last week, claiming you are “just golfers playing a game” or blandly treating the evils of the Saudi regime as “human rights” concerns.
“You are all Americans, keenly aware of the death and destruction of September 11. Whether it was the appeal of millions of dollars of hard cash, or just the opportunity to prosecute your professional grievances with the PGA, you have sold us out.
“This is a betrayal not only of us, but of all your countrymen.”
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/uk-sport/20203898.families-9-11-victims-outraged-americans-taking-part-liv-golf-series/ (https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/uk-sport/20203898.families-9-11-victims-outraged-americans-taking-part-liv-golf-series/)
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
Sean:
If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary
US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.
Ciao
Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.
We already know the Chinese are an unsavoury lot. But they sure do lend a ton of money to the US. Americans don't care who they deal with...this was established a long time ago. I don't know why so many find this a hard concept to grasp. Folks, the US is miles from the squeaky clean country it portrays itself to be. If we start from the position of being reasonable honest it is much easier to have conversations about the issues and problems which need to be addressed.
Ciao
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I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.
The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.
I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.
Cary
I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.
I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.
Ciao
Sean:
If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary
US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.
Ciao
Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.
We already know the Chinese are an unsavoury lot. But they sure do lend a ton of money to the US. Americans don't care who they deal with...this was established a long time ago. I don't know why so many find this a hard concept to grasp. Folks, the US is miles from the squeaky clean country it portrays itself to be. If we start from the position of being reasonable honest it is much easier to have conversations about the issues and problems which need to be addressed.
Ciao
Not a country (or person) on earth that's squeaky clean. American idiots, well ... yes, there are quite a few of them indeed. People are very good at being hypocrites when it benefits them / suits their agenda.
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The PGA tour wants to show us how it still has the greatest players. Korn Ferry set up on Sunday. 29,29,31 for the leaders on the front nine. They always think they are one step ahead of the average golfer. Play to our stupidity. That’s why I hate them.
On the positive side. Jim Nance is showing to be a true patriot not cashing out for an easy extra 200 mil. Those balls of steel must sooth his voice. A game changing legend without question.
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
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“Why is this group spending so much money — billions of dollars — recruiting players and chasing a concept with no possibility of a return?” he said. “At the same time, there’s been a lot of questions, a lot of comments, about the growth of the game. And I ask, ‘How is this good for the game?’”
“You’ve got true, pure competition, the best players in the world here at the RBC Canadian Open, with millions of fans watching. And in this game, it’s true and pure competition that creates the profiles and presences of the world’s greatest players. And that’s why they need us. That’s what we do,” Monahan said.
::)
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.
With that being said, I will be curious as to the "strings attached" for the players that are signing up. Nothing is free, and if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have a feeling some of these guys are going to be subjected to some media availability/appearance requirements that they wouldn't otherwise be thrilled about, not to mention likely have to wear some interesting looking uniforms.
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.
With that being said, I will be curious as to the "strings attached" for the players that are signing up. Nothing is free, and if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have a feeling some of these guys are going to be subjected to some media availability/appearance requirements that they wouldn't otherwise be thrilled about, not to mention likely have to wear some interesting looking uniforms.
Paulina in a burqa?
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
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The commish played it. How about providing a better product before you try to make the viewer better people?
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8) The 9/11 folks can play their cards anytime they want. No arguments.
But as the saying goes: " folks don't have the right to their own facts." I've worked with dozens of Saudi's on small $millions to $$Billions sized large projects and hate to see all 35 million of them lumped together as all evil bad apples any more than any other national, regional or local group of people.
Interesting reading from: https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-fall-of-the-bin-ladens
Bakr bin Laden’s recent travails offer a coda to the story of 9/11’s aftermath inside Saudi Arabia. The recent fall—or at least the economic punishment—of the bin Laden family has coincided with the rise to power of M.B.S., but it also reflects the twilight of the sprawling generation to which Osama belonged. It is a story of privilege, succession, and wildly diverse outlooks within a family whose name is an indelible part (https://www.newyorker.com/tag/911) of American history.
Congrats to Charl Schwartzel, I'd be really impressed with the past Masters Champion if he gave a sizable charitable donation somewhere.
... and have to question now whether the LIV PGA pariahs will be cancelled and their profiles scrubbed from PGA website??
https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.26331.charl-schwartzel.html
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There's a Dustin Johnson golf school at the TPC course in Myrtle Beach -- wonder if they'll strip his name off of it now, considering TPC is part of the PGA Tour and he resigned.
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Have any of the agents of the 17 players stepped away from this dirty money as an act of Patriotism?
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Are they independent contractors, or does the acceptance of appearance money, signing bonus or whatevermake them an employee?
Think they are closer to finally having a job.
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A possible scenario that I see is golf looking a lot like tennis in 5-10 years.
The tennis grand slam events survive being operated by entities outside the, ATP, tennis professional tour. The USTA, All England Lawn and Tennis, and the federations in France and Australia. Much like the USGA, ANGC, R&A, and PGA will continue to operate the four golf majors.
There's only one professional tour in tennis and only one professional golf tour may survive and it will either be the existing tours coming together and squeezing out the Saudis or the Saudis survive.
If this happened the TV coverage would be similar to tennis with extensive grand slam coverage (majors) and scant network coverage of tour events. Player on court (course) earnings would be concentrated at the very top with a 70% differential that now exists between the #1 ranked and #10 rank. The majority of money for the top would come from appearance fees and endorsements.
Tennis as a club sport is doing fine and golf will do fine as a club sport but won't achieve long term growth that it could have.
The Davis Cup survives and the Ryder Cup will find a way to survive.
Just a scenario that I could see evolving. I don't think this would be a good outcome for those financially vested in growing the game.
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.
This is an excellent point that is being ignored by many. I thought of this when listening to the Fire Pit podcast today. They talk about how the tour needs to change things. But they can't compete with the Saudis as the Saudis have a completely different objective function that involves making them acceptable to the rest of the world rather than making money..
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One of the difference between tennis and golf is that tennis players do not regularly sit around after playing drinking in clubs with televisions on. The purchasing power associated with the bar seats at every club/course in the US will keep golf on television on weekend afternoons. These companies need to advertise to older wealthier guys somehow.
Also, I’m not fully sold on the idea that ROI doesn’t matter to them. It might be on a longer time horizon, but there still needs to be done narrative beyond them thinking we might like them if they give a bunch of golfers a ton of cash.
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There must be a fable about this that I can’t remember. One where everyone gets their money and likes them even less.
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... and have to question now whether the LIV PGA pariahs will be cancelled and their profiles scrubbed from PGA website??
Probably not.
https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.01876.greg-norman.html (https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.01876.greg-norman.html)
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While no right-thinking person is hailing the oil-rich Saudis as a force for good in the wider world, in the little part of the planet occupied by golf their elite power-grab might, at least in one way, actually turn out to be just what Old Tom’s game needs in the long run. For too long now, the PGA Tour has been golf’s Goliath, a selfish, insular bully whose every action betrayed a lack of desire to do what is best for the sport on a global basis.
History – at least until recently – does not paint a pretty picture of how PGA Tour players have reacted to the presence of foreign interlopers. Bobby Locke was basically run out of town in the 1950s, a time when the eccentric South African was kicking the butts of Sam Snead, Ben Hogan and everyone else. Tony Jacklin has often spoken of how cold and unfriendly the Tour could be in the 1960s. A decade later Seve Ballesteros was afforded the same sort of welcome, as he showed the Yanks how golf should be played. Right up-to-date, major champions Paul Lawrie and Michael Campbell have been shown no respect and barely an invitation on the Champions Tour.
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/huggan-liv-golf-v-the-pga-tour-the-battle-pro-golf-needs-to-have-581286 (https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/huggan-liv-golf-v-the-pga-tour-the-battle-pro-golf-needs-to-have-581286)
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?
Ciao
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?
Ciao
Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?
Ciao
Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.
But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷
Ciao
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?
Ciao
Sean, I'm not assuming anything just saying that relatives of the victims are allowed to resent players signing up with LIV.
But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷
Ciao
It seems to for them. That's all I'm saying.
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The key factor to the success of the LIV Tour is what happens to the Majors, in my opinion. If players can play the limited number of LIV events for big money and still play the 4 Majors, that may be all many players want.
But the main factor to the entry to the Majors, in my opinion, is whether the LIV events get counted for World Ranking Points. Sure, the top guys--who have won recent Majors--may get into future ones--at least for a while. But for most of the others, their way into the Majors is through OWGR points. Without these points, the LIV Tour may fail.
In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points. And certainly the politics of the decision to award these points tilt away from the LIV Tour.
We'll see!
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The key factor to the success of the LIV Tour is what happens to the Majors, in my opinion. If players can play the limited number of LIV events for big money and still play the 4 Majors, that may be all many players want.
But the main factor to the entry to the Majors, in my opinion, is whether the LIV events get counted for World Ranking Points. Sure, the top guys--who have won recent Majors--may get into future ones--at least for a while. But for most of the others, their way into the Majors is through OWGR points. Without these points, the LIV Tour may fail.
In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points. And certainly the politics of the decision to award these points tilt away from the LIV Tour.
We'll see!
Even if they are awarded points, they almost certainly won't be enough to maintain their current OWGR. Too few events and too few players (especially highly ranked ones).
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Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?
Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.
Sorry Tommy. It should not be assumed the Saudi State supported 9/11. I am fed up with social media style of frontier justice because x number of people believe it to be the case. Because Saudis carried out the attack should not imply the state supported it. A bit of evidence would be nice. To date, there hasn't been much. Isn't it enough to stick with what we do know?
Ciao
Apparently they disagree with you concerning evidence.
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/should-be-ashamed-911-families-respond-phil-mickelsons-deep-empathy-comments
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A possible scenario that I see is golf looking a lot like tennis in 5-10 years.
The tennis grand slam events survive being operated by entities outside the, ATP, tennis professional tour. The USTA, All England Lawn and Tennis, and the federations in France and Australia. Much like the USGA, ANGC, R&A, and PGA will continue to operate the four golf majors.
There's only one professional tour in tennis and only one professional golf tour may survive and it will either be the existing tours coming together and squeezing out the Saudis or the Saudis survive.
If this happened the TV coverage would be similar to tennis with extensive grand slam coverage (majors) and scant network coverage of tour events. Player on court (course) earnings would be concentrated at the very top with a 70% differential that now exists between the #1 ranked and #10 rank. The majority of money for the top would come from appearance fees and endorsements.
Tennis as a club sport is doing fine and golf will do fine as a club sport but won't achieve long term growth that it could have.
The Davis Cup survives and the Ryder Cup will find a way to survive.
Just a scenario that I could see evolving. I don't think this would be a good outcome for those financially vested in growing the game.
Bill, I think you are 'on the money'. I wasn't just joking when I suggested Greg told the Saudi's Majors aren't that important. For 60% of the Golfers I play with they are All that's Important and about 20% don't care about the professional game at all.
The LIV tour will 'win' but at what cost?. Other Tours will be severely, maybe fatally wounded. But it's a huge gamble that occasional watchers (like me) will dip into our pockets to see some 'new' version of professional golf.
When you have billions to invest, its a cert you're going to bet on a few turkeys.
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One of the difference between tennis and golf is that tennis players do not regularly sit around after playing drinking in clubs with televisions on. The purchasing power associated with the bar seats at every club/course in the US will keep golf on television on weekend afternoons. These companies need to advertise to older wealthier guys somehow.
Also, I’m not fully sold on the idea that ROI doesn’t matter to them. It might be on a longer time horizon, but there still needs to be done narrative beyond them thinking we might like them if they give a bunch of golfers a ton of cash.
Whilst I agree fully with your second point I'm wondering how denying the Sunday afternoon TV spectator is going to grow this market? I thought Sunday viewers usually total more than the other 3 days combined? Strange.
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I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.
That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.
This is an excellent point that is being ignored by many. I thought of this when listening to the Fire Pit podcast today. They talk about how the tour needs to change things. But they can't compete with the Saudis as the Saudis have a completely different objective function that involves making them acceptable to the rest of the world rather than making money..
s
So how much more acceptable to the rest of the world has the LIV tour made them? ;) Think they are enjoying the publicity?
It's all about a long term investment strategy that may, or may not, pay off.
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Even now there are more than 48 that have signed up to play. How do they decide the field? It seems some will be left out especially if players sign up to play all of the exhibitions.
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Even now there are more than 48 that have signed up to play. How do they decide the field? It seems some will be left out especially if players sign up to play all of the exhibitions.
A related question, the players have taked a lot about freedom.
What does paying $100 million, or twice that, buy in terms of telling someone when and where to show up?
Gotta think the folks paying the $$ are expecting some obedience.
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But that card has nothing to do with LIV! 🤷
Yes, it does. Even if you restrict it purely to accepted, known fact… the majority of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. That's not "nothing."
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Ran into an a guy I know who works for the PGA Tour today. Not in any type of administrative position. He’s heard the Saudi’s have appropriated 100 billion for “sport washing” over the next 25 years with 3 billion to golf. The rest to sports like formula 1 racing. Anyone else heard those numbers?
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
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Two sources have told Lou Stagner, a golf stats guru, that the LIV Golf operation is expected to make an offer to buy the DP World (European) Tour. This likely explains the silence of Keith Pelley in recent days.
That would really make the fecal material hit the ventilator.
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
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In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.
What?
Even though there is similar on the PGA Tour that are given points?
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?
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In my opinion, these events--with small fields, 54 holes only, etc.--are more like exhibitions and shouldn't be given points.
What?
Even though there is similar on the PGA Tour that are given points?
As I've said above, even if they are given points, it won't help very much. Obviously it would be better than no points at all, but these players will likely end up with something like 10% of the points they'd earn on their regular PGA Tour schedule. They need more tournaments with stronger fields.
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.
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There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though.
That means it may have worked on you in some prior instance.
The goal is to inure people to its effects. That's why calling it out (even to the point of irritating people - I know the whole affair is very irritating to me!) is important - people will be reminded to see it for what it is. The distracting hypotheticals and whataboutist deflections play directly into the hands of the entity engaging in it.
I guess to some, whether what SA is up to in golf constitutes sportswashing is up for debate (it seems very clear to me that that's what's going on). And I guess some others are in favor of SA laundering its reputation in this way.
Regardless, every "What about China!" and "What about Saudi involvement in other sports!" and "What about US commerce with the Kingdom!" helps SA derive some value from this project. Golfers like Phil Mickelson and DJ are getting paid handsomely to help with that while lots of others seem eager to do it for free.
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?
This is exactly my question. Even if the reports are only half true, they will literally be paying out hundreds of millions if not billions just to get this thing going. How on God's green earth are they ever going to recover that?
Sounds a bit like building a new golf course. Spend 30+ mill on upfront project costs and then just hope to make enough to cover operating costs year over year...and we know how most of those turn out for the initial owner.
This new tour is a completely bogus/bullshit business model and the #2 reason why I'm not a fan of it besides the fact that its blood money funding it.
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Propagating hate and division has historically driven up the price of oil. You guys bought the whole hog sausage. Put that in your money model.
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?
This is exactly my question. Even if the reports are only half true, they will literally be paying out hundreds of millions if not billions just to get this thing going. How on God's green earth are they ever going to recover that?
They don’t need to recover any of it as it’s not a venture where the bottom line is the driver. They will have no issues absorbing the losses.
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Brian, what PGA Tour events do you consider similar that get points?
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Can the LIV players also play on the European tour?
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Can the LIV players also play on the European tour?
No. The Saudi commish stated that any LIV player seen playing the ET will be suspended and future payouts cancelled. In between tears I thought I made out something about European Colonialism.
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Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.
+1
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Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.
+1
FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them. >:(
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Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.
+1
FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them. >:(
You are absolutely fucking kidding, right?:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-notre-dame-sex-assault-lawsuit-met-20170913-story.html
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You can go back to 1974 with Notre Dame football rape allegations: Six players were dismissed from the university for a year, South Bend prosecutors were on the case. Here's a link to the AP story.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19740726.2.66&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN----------
I covered Notre Dame sports, focusing on football, for a newspaper for about 30 years. The atmosphere went from collegial to corporate in that time. Two athletic directors in particular, Dick Rosenthal (1987-94) and Jack Swarbrick (2008-present), were responsible for that. And Swarbrick's conduct surrounding the death of Declan Sullivan, a student and video assistant for the football team who was killed when a lift fell in high winds during a 2010 practice, will never be forgiven.
Good school, but as imperfect as the rest of the world.
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Notre Dame is an example of sports washing. I was indoctrinated into believing it is a great university just cause they won a couple of titles in the 40’s.
+1
FU both. The Fighting Irish are a bastion of righteousness in a corrupt college sports world.
Favoring education over winning is the only reason they haven't won more than the 24 national championships the polls gave them. >:(
You are absolutely fucking kidding, right?:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-notre-dame-sex-assault-lawsuit-met-20170913-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-notre-dame-sex-assault-lawsuit-met-20170913-story.html)
Fake news!
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You can go back to 1974 with Notre Dame football rape allegations: Six players were dismissed from the university for a year, South Bend prosecutors were on the case. Here's a link to the AP story.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19740726.2.66&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN---------- (https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d=DIL19740726.2.66&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN----------)
I covered Notre Dame sports, focusing on football, for a newspaper for about 30 years. The atmosphere went from collegial to corporate in that time. Two athletic directors in particular, Dick Rosenthal (1987-94) and Jack Swarbrick (2008-present), were responsible for that. And Swarbrick's conduct surrounding the death of Declan Sullivan, a student and video assistant for the football team who was killed when a lift fell in high winds during a 2010 practice, will never be forgiven.
Good school, but as imperfect as the rest of the world.
Sullivan was a tragic accident, nothing more.
You gotta go back to 1974, compared to the other Power 5 conferences where despicable stuff happens every year and they just cover it up.
ND is still the class of college football. 8)
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Was the 36 Olympics the first attempt at sports washing. How did that work out?
Is “sports washing” just another word for Nazi? When are we going to stop the name calling and relax?
What if the Saudi’s spent their money on a free bullet train from Bandon to Cabo? Is that sports washing? Does it count if it benefits amateur sports enthusiasts?
Has James Dolan sport washed the Knicks just so we will listen to his band?
There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though. Do people really think sovereign wealth fund investments in sport is about improving the image of Saudi by covering up human rights abuses? No one thinks it could ultimately be about diversifying their economy? And thus creating jobs, improving infrastructure etc. Even a cruel country such as Saudi understands that it must change to keep up. Not in my lifetime, but the day is coming when oil will not rule the roost...and the Saudis understand this.
Ciao
How does losing money on golf diversify their economy or create Saudi jobs?
Trying to attract internal investment. Which could stabilise banking, develop markets in which Saudi can perhaps be competitive. The goal is to make the private sector an engine for domestic growth. While I don't like the Saudi regime, I do see the above as very positive. It's an economically backward country because its not a country in the sense you and I think of the term. Saudi is basically a family run oil company. Making a country attractive to invest is not the same as making a country appealing to the masses. Plenty of countries and companies invest in unsavoury places if the possible gains outweigh the risks.
Ciao
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There must be a few examples of so called sports washing which has actually worked. I can't think of any though.
That means it's may have worked on you in some prior instance.
The goal is to inure people to its effects. That's why calling it out (even to the point of irritating people - I know the whole affair is very irritating to me!) is important - people will be reminded to see it for what it is. The distracting hypotheticals and whataboutist deflections play directly into the hands of the entity engaging in it.
I guess to some, whether what SA is up to in golf constitutes sportswashing is up for debate (it seems very clear to me that that's what's going on). And I guess some others are in favor of SA laundering its reputation in this way.
Regardless, every "What about China!" and "What about Saudi involvement in other sports!" and "What about US commerce with the Kingdom!" helps SA derive some value from this project. Golfers like Phil Mickelson and DJ are getting paid handsomely to help with that while lots of others seem eager to do it for free.
So, what are those incidents of successful sport washing? I don't think any better of Saudi, Russia and China....and I don't think others do. I haven't seen evidence of successful sport washing. I see plenty evidence of all levels of society taking dirty money which has been going on since there was dirty money to be had. But again, I am sure there are cases where a country is now seen in a positive light by much of the world when if fact it still has a terrible human rights record.
Ciao
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I would say Trump has been unsuccessful in attempting to sports wash his image through golf, as the Tour and R&A have dropped him. But LIV is giving him another opportunity.
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Trump, sports wash, lol, he just wants the money.
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Trump not interested in his image? lol. “My ratings are the best!” He’s really not very good at making money, absent the grift.
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Trump, sports wash, lol, he just wants the money.
YEP, THE RETAIL GOLFER'S $ ... AND A PLACE TO PLAY WHEN IN TOWN... ::)
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Steve,
You are without doubt a capital chap but does that explain why you have taken to responding on G.C.A. in upper case!!??
Cheers Colin
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Tim,
You are in denial my friend. Like it or not, Notre Dame is the face of the Catholic Church when it comes to sports in America and the laundry list of grievances against that organization is without end.
But they aren't alone, BYU certainly does its fair share of sports washing too, and I admit this as an alum of the University...
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So, what are those incidents of successful sport washing? I don't think any better of Saudi, Russia and China....and I don't think others do. I haven't seen evidence of successful sport washing. I see plenty evidence of all levels of society taking dirty money which has been going on since there was dirty money to be had. But again, I am sure there are cases where a country is now seen in a positive light by much of the world when if fact it still has a terrible human rights record.
Ciao
We really should set all this aside and see how things develop. Let's not get too far into the weeds and find that the admonition of the "pot calling the kettle black" points right back at us.
I can understand why Rory and others at the top of professional golf as well as people living lavishly in their orbit (e.g. Brandel Chamblee who apparently has added a new word in his repetitive commentary- "existential") are so alarmed. It is their platform to riches, fame, meaning, raison d'etre which is being challenged beyond their immediate control.
Google "projection" and see if it applies here. Anyone on a lucrative Nike endorsement contract who has the gall to throw SA's human rights record at the face of the LIV Tour and its players probably falls into one of these: totally lacking in self-awareness, ignorant, or just being a common, ordinary hypocrite.
It is all about "the Benjamins" and the very natural reaction to competition which might disrupt our own pursuit of a somewhat entitled lifestyle. Remember, money is fungible. Do we want to put our own sources and uses under a similar microscope?
I know a few people pretty well who work in the sovereign wealth sphere in the Middle East. To suggest that the LIV Tour is a mega loss leader for the Saudis to save face/curry favor with the increasingly selectively "liberal" West betrays a terrible combination of arrogance and naivete about how the world works. Two things many informed, influential people in the ROW have learned are that our positions on any number or issues are situational, and unlike inflation today, transitory.
True, not every deal has to have a high IRR, but as part of an overall strategy (what perhaps Tim Martin was alluding to), the bottom line and the future are indeed the objective. SA, unlike our own short term election-oriented government and Wall Street's quarterly report focus, has a much longer term approach. Those in control know their strengths, threats, and opportunities. I would not bet against their business approach nor their will to survive in what is a very illiberal time for their long time allies.
If we look at these people and their cultures derisively as inherently inferior, our "free lunch" of the past 60 years will become increasingly unsustainable, maybe even close to Chamblee's "existential". It was not SA or Venezuela who came to the U.S. begging to sell us more oil. It was the man who campaigned on ending the carbon economy and, to his credit, has managed to make a large down payment on that promise in 17 months who is now crawling to these unsavory regimes with his hands out.
I don't want to see a war of attrition with LIV. Perhaps the Tour bureaucracy has superior information at their space-age headquarters to suggest that LIV won't live long. But, I suspect, that even if LIV fails, some changes will be necessary. Either the Tour is a meritocracy or a closed shop with a strong, well-paid staff and peripheral support organizations benefiting from the status quo to the exclusion of others who may indeed bring positive change to the game.
Nicklaus, Woods, and any number of top performers didn't enjoy playing much more than 15 tournaments annually. Family values in that segment of society have become more important- it is as well at the country club level where fathers no longer spend all weekend at the club playing golf and cards. Certainly there must be a way to have a more open access to the various tours throughout the world which could indeed grow the game. Change and competition, supposedly we are all for it, unless it is disruptive at a personal level, i.e. good for everyone else. ::)
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Kalen,
The thing that gets me about BYU is how the NCAA bends over backwards for them. Every year that their team or an individual qualifies for the golf championships, the club has to setup the course on Thursday with Sunday’s holes and they have to go out and play by themselves. This forces the other teams to complete their practice rounds, the grounds crew to come back at midday and setup the course, the Rules Committee to have officials fo with each player and then on Sunday they get to sit and relax while the other teams and players struggle to make the cut for Monday.
As I understand it Notre Dame also used to refuse Tokelau on Sundays but changed many years ago.
I just wish that strict Jewish, Moslem schools as well as BYU would qualify one year and watch the mess that ensued.
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Kalen,
The thing that gets me about BYU is how the NCAA bends over backwards for them. Every year that their team or an individual qualifies for the golf championships, the club has to setup the course on Thursday with Sunday’s holes and they have to go out and play by themselves. This forces the other teams to complete their practice rounds, the grounds crew to come back at midday and setup the course, the Rules Committee to have officials fo with each player and then on Sunday they get to sit and relax while the other teams and players struggle to make the cut for Monday.
As I understand it Notre Dame also used to refuse Tokelau on Sundays but changed many years ago.
I just wish that strict Jewish, Moslem schools as well as BYU would qualify one year and watch the mess that ensued.
Agreed John, it is BS.
Its also my understanding that the NCAA men's tourney changed the Final Four to a Saturday/Monday combo in large part to accommodate BYU, which made a few deep runs back in Danny Ainge's heyday. If the BYU Women's team ever gets good they may have to do something similar as that's a Sunday/Tuesday configuration IIRC.
P.S. I really wish the Big 12 would have put their foot down and not invited them, but with fans everywhere like ND. sports travels well for ratings and even ESPN couldn't resist to give them a football contract years ago.
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Kalen,
It’s interesting that none of the players seem to have a problem playing on Sundays once they turned pro. I guess if any of them do, they can go to the LIV tour.
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Kalen,
It’s interesting that none of the players seem to have a problem playing on Sundays once they turned pro. I guess if any of them do, they can go to the LIV tour.
Steve Young who wears the sacred undergarment never had a problem playing on Sundays.
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Kalen,
It’s interesting that none of the players seem to have a problem playing on Sundays once they turned pro. I guess if any of them do, they can go to the LIV tour.
Steve Young who wears the sacred undergarment never had a problem playing on Sundays.
Contradictions, hypocrisy, and exceptions abound everywhere. You don't even know the half of it! ;)
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Kalen,
It’s interesting that none of the players seem to have a problem playing on Sundays once they turned pro. I guess if any of them do, they can go to the LIV tour.
Steve Young who wears the sacred undergarment never had a problem playing on Sundays.
Contradictions, hypocrisy, and exceptions abound everywhere. You don't even know the half of it! ;)
Oh man,
Now I can’t get the thought of a hair shirt jockstrap out of my head.
Thanks, boys,
F.
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Tim,
You are in denial my friend. Like it or not, Notre Dame is the face of the Catholic Church when it comes to sports in America and the laundry list of grievances against that organization is without end.
But they aren't alone, BYU certainly does its fair share of sports washing too, and I admit this as an alum of the University...
Kalen,
Once upon a time, yes, but Notre Dame is governed by a lay board while headed by a Catholic priest, John Jenkins. I'd hardly call it the face of anything these days.
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It's pretty clear that the LIV US Open participants are past their prime with the exception of DJ
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It's pretty clear that the LIV US Open participants are past their prime with the exception of DJ
What makes you say that?