Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on May 20, 2022, 01:26:23 AM
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Ian Poulter told guys to stay out of the sand. I guess the coarse nature of the sand diminishes the spin the players can get.
I have found less consistency between courses of the sand of late. The sand at Ballyhack is native to the site and is very different from the native sand at Dormie. I like having the same sand from course to course but different sand makes bunkers hazards.
That think ye?
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Sand native to the site is fine.
Bunkers cost a bunch of money to look after and insisting on consistent sand likely graded and trucked in from a distance is another cost, one worth thinking about the next time subs/greenfees are considered.
atb
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I watched a bit of it last night and it seems that the coarseness is one point of difference to what they normally play but also it appeared in a couple of instances that it wasn't as deep as they were expecting and that they bottomed out with their shots. I presume that is more a maintenance issue rather than design issue ?
Niall
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Clyde Chrisman on Twitter: "Contrary to what you may be hearing this is the same bunker sand we have had for years!!!! We dug it and and put it back in after the restoration. Also. Wonder how many buried lies there were🤔🤔🤔🤔 I’ll go with zero. @PGAChampionship" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/DrChrisClydeman/status/1527461139159961603)
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8) :P
In the vast minority who feels that bunkers are hazards and not a reward for an offline shot. Also would opt for less is more when it comes to sand and would try to insure an absence of plugged lies if possible. Firm and hard works for me on both the course and bunkers as a rule. Very few agree so it's a personal like. Members complaints over bunkers seems endemic to the species .
Perhaps it's because in learning the game in my late teens even PVGC didn't worry about the bunkers to the extent that many do today. Make sure they drain , no plugs , and don't but grasses in them would be my personal mantra.
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Many I should start a different thread about what kind've lakes and streams players prefer to play out of....
Insisting on, or even preferring the same kind've sand from course to course negates the skill involved in judgement of the lie, control of the blade/bounce, and yes the rub of the green variables involved when you challenge or stray into a bunker.
Homogonization is the enemy of varied and unique architecture, and taking it a step further to maintenance in hazards diminishes the strategy and role of such a hazard, while simultaneously adding expense and future expectations of perfection and control in all places while playing what used to be an outdoor game.
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I loved watching the players struggle to get it up and down from the sand hazards yesterday!
I am reminded of when I was Grounds Chair at my club and a former club champion was complaining to me about the inconsistency of our sand. I kept saying I didn't see any problems and he kept trying to explain it. Finally he said "Bill, it's getting to the point where I'm standing in the fairway consciously thinking don't hit it in there." I didn't say anything, and he smiled and said "I guess that's the point, huh?" BINGO!
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I have not been watching the tournament [I'm working this week], but it's interesting to hear this has been a topic. I do remember from the events in the 1970's that Southern Hills' sand was notoriously different than bunker sand in other places, and it was a major topic of conversation at the events won by Ray Floyd and Hubert Green. It's rare to find it a topic of conversation nowadays, because most big clubs have spent $$$$$ to make the sand "playable" [easier] for members.
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It is really interesting to watch the bunker play. The pros have what appears to be "stock" bunker shots that I expect them to get within three feet more times than not, but they end up outside ten feet.
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What were they doing in practice rounds?
Don’t your feet give you information about the sand?
Shut up!!!!’
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One of the interesting/difficult things I found at Maidstone was that there was a big difference between the bunker sand and the beach/dunes sand. On those holes that go out to the ocean, often there would be both types in areas around a green, and part of the challenge was figuring out which kind of sand you were in. Can't say I loved it or hated it ... just found it to be a very different experience.
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During his press conference Woods was asked about the bunkers and his answer was "The sand is a lot faster than I thought it was going to be." Now I know Woods has his own lexicon (reps, water balls, sight lines, explosiveness, etc) but in all my days I have never heard anyone describe bunker sand as "fast."
Any thoughts?
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The grain size of the sand at Southern Hills is a lot larger than the fine powder like sand we typically see on tour. I'd imagine Tiger's comment is about how his club goes through the sand faster than anticipated due to the large grain size.
Its been nice to see how a different sand in the bunkers and a slower green speed has impacted the play of the players. Although, watching the coverage this morning, the players seem to be adjusting to the sand quickly.
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During his press conference Woods was asked about the bunkers and his answer was "The sand is a lot faster than I thought it was going to be." Now I know Woods has his own lexicon (reps, water balls, sight lines, explosiveness, etc) but in all my days I have never heard anyone describe bunker sand as "fast."
Any thoughts?
That was my thought in watching them play out of it. The ball just comes out faster and releases more. So, players can effectively put a swing on it that would otherwise be good for a much shorter bunker shot.
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They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.
Pretty sure I read it here but it was one of those obvious things that had flown over my heard for the almost 50 years I've been playing golf. "putting on slow greens is a skill". Same would be true for playing from bunkers.
Covid has me watching golf during the work week and I have to say the course looks spectacular on TV.
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I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand. But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.
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They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.
But they really don't have too.
The PGA tour has prescribed so much about course setup that green speed's from week to week are virtually identical. And nearly every course on tour uses some variety of white silica sand.
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Typically those brown/buff sands from this area are finer, or at least rounder particles than the Silica sands from Ohio or Arkansas. When I got out on the course, I was surprised to see they aren't the typical white. I noticed that some of the steeper banks, like the front left of no. 4 green appeared to have some kind of polymer on the bank to help hold sand up.
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pgachampionship2022-bunkers-sand-complaints-contorversy-problems?utm_medium=email&utm_source=052022&utm_campaign=breakingnewsam&utm_content=DM27977&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0
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They can adapt to different greens each week, they should be able to adapt to different sand.
But they really don't have too.
The PGA tour has prescribed so much about course setup that green speed's from week to week are virtually identical. And nearly every course on tour uses some variety of white silica sand.
I was referring to the type of grass not just the speed.
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I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand. But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.
Interesting I was thinking more bounce with a bigger flange.
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Not sure I heard it right but did they say that they added sand into the bunkers since yesterday?
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No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.
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I would think that the players should switch to a lower bounce SW for this sand. But I'd curious as to how many of them actually did change their equipment vs just try to adjust their technique.
Interesting I was thinking more bounce with a bigger flange.
I was thinking a vintage Ben Hogan 'Sure Out' sand wedge would come in handy.
Re: the bunker sand at Southern Hills - at least all the bunkers at Southern Hills itself, one compared to another, play alike. I can only dream of that kind of consistency!
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Read on social media that the SHGC Supt when questioned replied that the bunker sand had come from Ohio. Long way. Sounds expen$ive. Wonder if they are also using the same sand type for the ‘target’ sandpits on the practice ground?
Atb
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Heard one announcer comment how the sand is tougher for the pros who can’t spin it like usual, but the members are fine with it since they can’t generally spin the ball out of bunkers.
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"Ian Poulter told guys to stay out of the sand." Brilliant. I'm surely not the only one with that thought.
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https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/05/19/pga-championship-sand-bunkers-southern-hills-pga-championship-tiger-woods.html
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No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.
Given the wind, wouldn't surprise me at all.
We lose a LOT of sand in wind events, and it would seem natural to carefully add some sand where needed.
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No, I think it was Duval who said the bunker play had been better today than yesterday and he WONDERED if they added sand over night. I find it hard to believe that.
Given the wind, wouldn't surprise me at all.
We lose a LOT of sand in wind events, and it would seem natural to carefully add some sand where needed.
My guess is that
1) the players are learning tricks on how to play the shots, a caddie at PVGC once gave me three little changes on how to play the then very firm bunkers there and it made all the difference.
2) the limitless volunteer green crew members may have raked the bunkers in a different manner today to loosen up the surface.
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I have seen nothing but good splashy bunker shots today, the kind I teach with plenty of margin for error.
yes they spin less, but spin is usually the enemy of good bunker play for all but the elite, and don't HAVE to be played that way-and the marging for error is thin, especially in variable types and depths of sand.
Rather than hitting SO close to the ball, simply hit 2-4 inches behind and exit 2-4 inches past, with the intended low point being exactly underneath the ball)How big the area is depends upon the texture of the sand(expose more bounce in soft sand) and the speed of one's swing. (an 80 year old woman would need to hit closer and swing harder)
Stop the ball with height-it's far more predictable than spin, unless you play on the fake crushed quartz that has become the go to for the PGA Tour, and have tons of talent and technique.
If you were going to throw the ball on the green from a deep bunker, I don't think you'd try to spin it.
Let it roll predictably based on height. Thinner, firmer sand will naturally create more spin(and less height)
Bubba is excelling in bunkers today-I'd say Ian better get used to sand given his soon to be home in the desert.
Have the bunkers gotten better?, or the players just adapted.
I've seen nothing but good shots.
First round I have watched.
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I love what I have usually called "river sand," not the crushed-marble, bright-white powder that you see on too many courses these days. Since when did a sand bunker become a powder bunker? These are supposed to be hazards, so who cares if these became tougher. The grains of sand were larger in the old sand--and therefore maybe less consistent--but is that bad in a hazard? It is the same for all.
I recall that the bunkers of my youth were filed with river sand. How and when and why did that change?
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Jim,
I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.
Ira
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I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.
I have a minor in the history of bunker sand.
Up through the 1980's, nearly all courses sourced bunker sand from the nearest quarry. There were some guidelines as to the best range of particle sizes, but clubs took what they could get. The 'river sand' Jim Hoak describes was common in Texas and Oklahoma.
In the 1990's it started to change. Jack Nicklaus was building courses all around the country, and decided that the sand he'd gotten for some projects in the Midwest - from the Best Sand Company outside of Cleveland - was the best quality he'd seen, so he started specifying it for courses as far south as Florida. Tom Fazio actually built a course adjacent to the Best Sand quarry, and he started specifying it everywhere, too. And naturally every other club who wanted the best conditions followed.
PGA TOUR players have always wanted for conditions to be as consistent as possible from week to week, so they don't have to adjust their games to different green speeds, different bunker sand, etc. In the 80's they experimented with wetting agents and other techniques to get the sand at outlier courses to be more consistent -- I did an article for GOLF Magazine about that, and interviewed David Eger, who was the setup man for the Tour at that time. David said he spent more time and brain damage working on the bunker sand at clubs than any other topic. Eventually, the Tour also started recommending replacing all the bunker sand with the best material possible. The fact that it also made bunker play easier for the pros was just a side effect.
* NOTE that not everyone follows along. Many of the clubs where we have done restorations insist on using the most expensive bunker sand they can find. However at places like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, and Sand Valley, you are playing out of the sand that we exposed when the bunker was dug -- unless they've had to fill the bunker back up from a nearby pit because of wind erosion!
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I agree with your point, and I am not a historian of bunker sand, but my guess is that as the most known and viewed course in the US, ANGC had a sizable impact on bunker sand.
However at places like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, and Sand Valley, you are playing out of the sand that we exposed when the bunker was dug -- unless they've had to fill the bunker back up from a nearby pit because of wind erosion!
Tom-Have you had clients balk at using sand that was indigenous to the site? For the architect and construction guys it must be quite a bonus to be able to go that route.
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I guess I'm a contrarian on bunkers and the sand therein. I've always thought (to the extent I ever think about it) of bunkers as hazards to be avoided. It follows that they should be difficult to get out of. The idea of easing play from the bunkers, for hacks or pros, appalls me. Use whatever sand is handy, and don't put out rakes for smoothing during play. A ball ends up in an old footprint. Tough luck buddy, you shouldn't have hit it there. I was spectating a significant tournament of some sort once and an official remarked that a player (or caddy?) had raked a bunker incorrectly -- I guessing with the grooves going in the "wrong direction." Give me a break.