Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_malone on May 19, 2022, 12:23:10 PM
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It looks like the land is great for golf and the green complexes challenge these pros.
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I just heard one of the announcers in the ESPN studio refer to Southern Hills as a Hanse “redesign.” I know the terms restoration, renovation, restovation, and redesign are bandied about depending on who is involved in the discussion but “redesign” misses the mark IMO. I listened to Hanse last night on the Golf Channel and he doesn’t consider it a redesign. The lions share of his work does not get his name on the scorecard upon completion.
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And no blinding white sand in the bunkers. :)
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Listed in Restorations on Hanse website.
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I’m old. The Joe Buck/Michael Collins coverage is where we are going. Why no free streaming like the Masters. The PGA is losing it.
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I’m old. The Joe Buck/Michael Collins coverage is where we are going. Why no free streaming like the Masters. The PGA is losing it.
No interest in what Joe, Michael or Peyton have to the say when it comes to the PGA. They are trying way to hard.
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
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Since I posted reply # 5 Eli Manning has joined Joe, Michael and Peyton. As a life long NY Giant fan I love him but don’t think he has added anything to the stew. Sorry for going off topic. :)
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If you live in Canada, the ESPN+ coverage is on TSN, followed by the ESPN coverage. Twelve straight hours of golf. TSN does the same thing with the online Masters coverage, spreading it across several channels. Now I know why it's called the Great White North.
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#4 green looks a lot like what Maxwell built at ANGC#7 and GMGC#8.
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16& class=bbc_link target=_blank rel=noopener)
From what I saw of Hanse on GC yesterday he doesn't consider it a redesign
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16& class=bbc_link target=_blank rel=noopener)
From what I saw of Hanse on GC yesterday he doesn't consider it a redesign
Yea i'm watching right now, its the CBS crew on ESPN. Glad i missed the morning "meat head" comments...
P.S. I don't understand the mindset... Is ESPN trying to pull in more viewers? Or just couldn't give a shit about fielding a competent golf team?
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I am a ESPN+ subscriber and we get 5 different feeds. 4 featured groups and coverage of 16, 17 and 18.
Just now it was mentioned that there is a system under each of the greens regulating their temperature, like a heated floor.
Is anyone familiar with this system? What is it called and how much $ does it cost?
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Does anyone else think the pins today are awfully close to the edges of the greens?
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16& class=bbc_link target=_blank rel=noopener)
From what I saw of Hanse on GC yesterday he doesn't consider it a redesign
Yea i'm watching right now, its the CBS crew on ESPN. Glad i missed the morning "meat head" comments...
P.S. I don't understand the mindset... Is ESPN trying to pull in more viewers? Or just couldn't give a shit about fielding a competent golf team?
I just think ESPN is generally incompetent. It has been a generation since I watched SportsCenter. There have been good announcers who were not golf-centric (Vin Scully and Pat Summeral come to mind). But the length of a golf broadcast and the fact that the crescendos in golf are different than other sports it takes some thinking about who goes on the broadcast. Joe Buck ain't it.
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I am a ESPN+ subscriber and we get 5 different feeds. 4 featured groups and coverage of 16, 17 and 18.
Just now it was mentioned that there is a system under each of the greens regulating their temperature, like a heated floor.
Is anyone familiar with this system? What is it called and how much $ does it cost?
I don't know the name, but I heard someone discussing installing it at another high-end south-central US club at a cost of $600K per green.
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This from "The Fried Egg" on the restoration:
Perhaps the most new-fashioned aspect of Southern Hills lies underground. During the restoration, the club [/size]installed (https://www.achrnews.com/articles/141118-pga-championship-course-installs-hydronic-green-conditioning)[/color][/size] 200,000 feet of tubing beneath the greens for heating and cooling. This state-of-the-art hydronics system will give Russ Myers precise control over the subsurface temperatures of the bentgrass putting surfaces. It is an innovation that Perry Maxwell couldn’t have imagined, and one that traditionalists may decry as an extravagance.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16& class=bbc_link target=_blank rel=noopener)
From what I saw of Hanse on GC yesterday he doesn't consider it a redesign
Yea i'm watching right now, its the CBS crew on ESPN. Glad i missed the morning "meat head" comments...
P.S. I don't understand the mindset... Is ESPN trying to pull in more viewers? Or just couldn't give a shit about fielding a competent golf team?
I just think ESPN is generally incompetent. It has been a generation since I watched SportsCenter. There have been good announcers who were not golf-centric (Vin Scully and Pat Summeral come to mind). But the length of a golf broadcast and the fact that the crescendos in golf are different than other sports it takes some thinking about who goes on the broadcast. Joe Buck ain't it.
It was at least ok when they had John Tirico, but when they lost him and were using Chris Berman, and now Joe Buck, its like I gotta mute it...
P.S. I agree on SportsCenter in general, but you should tune in for a Scott Van Pelt version, he runs an excellent version of the show. But yes more often than not I just tune into see specific highlights...
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Certainly not a redesign...
Hole Corridors are exactly the same... just a few removed and added bunkers here and there.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16&style=h&imgid=aacb7e17-e436-46ce-a6ad-ec1be8a4521e&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027 (https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=d6a4b4f8-7d3d-494f-af2d-4a93d6398da1&cp=36.075204~-95.946629&lvl=16& class=bbc_link target=_blank rel=noopener)
From what I saw of Hanse on GC yesterday he doesn't consider it a redesign
Yea i'm watching right now, its the CBS crew on ESPN. Glad i missed the morning "meat head" comments...
P.S. I don't understand the mindset... Is ESPN trying to pull in more viewers? Or just couldn't give a shit about fielding a competent golf team?
I just think ESPN is generally incompetent. It has been a generation since I watched SportsCenter. There have been good announcers who were not golf-centric (Vin Scully and Pat Summeral come to mind). But the length of a golf broadcast and the fact that the crescendos in golf are different than other sports it takes some thinking about who goes on the broadcast. Joe Buck ain't it.
It was at least ok when they had John Tirico, but when they lost him and were using Chris Berman, and now Joe Buck, its like I gotta mute it...
P.S. I agree on SportsCenter in general, but you should tune in for a Scott Van Pelt version, he runs an excellent version of the show. But yes more often than not I just tune into see specific highlights...
1. There is always a Lana song for every tournament:. https://youtu.be/pLiCh9PXbwg
2. The Tirico brothers are both golf native and I enjoy their work: more on the host side but they get the game and are generally really professional golfing announcers.
3. SC upsets me because it apes the cable news: engagement is making 20% of the population really, really mad. Steven A exists to yell on television 6 days a week. There are things in the sports world to be mad about. But this constant pushing emotional buttons is phony.
(rant off)
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I am a ESPN+ subscriber and we get 5 different feeds. 4 featured groups and coverage of 16, 17 and 18.
Just now it was mentioned that there is a system under each of the greens regulating their temperature, like a heated floor.
Is anyone familiar with this system? What is it called and how much $ does it cost?
I don't know the name, but I heard someone discussing installing it at another high-end south-central US club at a cost of $600K per green.
$600,000 per hole was the cost of the entire renovation of Southern Hill, $11,000,000.
I too think a HVAC system under each green is not something to be admired/championed. They also did this at Merion East. I’ve heard of other courses too but can’t remember well enough to list them here. I guess if the USGA or PGA suggests it’s a prerequisite for multiple future majors there is no choice.
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My beautiful Australian Silky Terrier is napping on my lap.
I’m listening to Miles Davis ‘Kind of Blue.”
Bourbon on ice, a splash.
Images of a great golf course with the greatest players magnify on my screen.
And the sound is MUTED and will remain that way throughout the tournament.
Order has been restored..
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I am a ESPN+ subscriber and we get 5 different feeds. 4 featured groups and coverage of 16, 17 and 18.
Just now it was mentioned that there is a system under each of the greens regulating their temperature, like a heated floor.
Is anyone familiar with this system? What is it called and how much $ does it cost?
I don't know the name, but I heard someone discussing installing it at another high-end south-central US club at a cost of $600K per green.
$600,000 per hole was the cost of the entire renovation of Southern Hill, $11,000,000.
I too think a HVAC system under each green is not something to be admired/championed. They also did this at Merion East. I’ve heard of other courses too but can’t remember well enough to list them here. I guess if the USGA or PGA suggests it’s a prerequisite for multiple future majors there is no choice.
Agree 100%.
Where does it all end?
Despite the expense and extravagance of the "restoration", 90% of the comments from press and players about the course have been about the condition of the course.
Sand is a hot topic everyone is being asked to comment on.Funnily eough, the sand IS resored and actually saved from the previous iteration of the course.
The reigning Masters Champon mentioned THREE times in his interview how chewed up the greens were in the afternoon-at a course where they just spent 11 million-playing in May!! not August when the PGA used to be played, or late June for a US Open.
My point is I hear more questions and comments about conditioning issues than ever, despite all the expense and extravagance poured into high profile courses.
Raising expectations to such a high level that a full field full of footprints is now a problem for players(to be fair Aimpoint certainly contributes but I digress....)
Every single 6 footer did not used to be a gimme. Greens weren't perfectly consistent.
That said, one could firmly strike a putt with inconsistencies without fear of it running another 6 feet by.
Every single bunker shot did not used to have a consistent type, color and size of sand grain to ensure high, "consistent" spin and experience from odd and variable lies mattered. To be fair, they weren't trying to stop the ball on greens rolling 13 either as they are now
(IMHO that's yet another problem/root of other problems-again I digress...but while I'm at it,how do you "restore" a course when you're maintaining the greens at more than DOUBLE the stimp speed they were from whatever period they are basing the restoration on.)
I had a very interesting, highly varied incredible week which really confirmed/cemented my ideas on green speed/redesign, and in some ways broke my heart. Can't really comment on it yet but hope to in some way when I get my thoughts together and figure out a way to comment without offense, as none is intended.
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I’m old. The Joe Buck/Michael Collins coverage is where we are going. Why no free streaming like the Masters. The PGA is losing it.
Agreed. I am too. I watched a little and just couldn't take it. Freddy and Pat Perez (who was out until 10am in Las Vegas last night/this morning) were on, and made it somewhat tolerable. All in all though, pretty awful.
PGA website had no coverage this morning.
Missed opportunity.
I like Scott Van Pelt though. I think he does a good job.
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For years I've declined to pay $7 a month for ESPN+ but I ponied it up yesterday. Coverage has been excellent with a choice of three featured groups plus regular feed. I highly recommend it.
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Bubba hits a iron on 18. It rolls up against the rough on the edge of the creek. One announcer said "He'll have to hit a sweeping hook from there". The other announcer said "He's got the imagination to pull it off!"
Sweet Jesus, does he not know it is "skill" , and not "imagination", that is required?
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For years I've declined to pay $7 a month for ESPN+ but I ponied it up yesterday. Coverage has been excellent with a choice of three featured groups plus regular feed. I highly recommend it.
My girlfriend recently renewed her cell phone with Verizon and got Hulu, ESPN+ and Disney included. I got HBOMax with ATT phone so we’ve got things covered. ESPN+ is a definite plus.
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For years I've declined to pay $7 a month for ESPN+ but I ponied it up yesterday. Coverage has been excellent with a choice of three featured groups plus regular feed. I highly recommend it.
HBOMax comes with my ATT fiber. Watched Killing of a.Chinese Bookie this week - never saw it before. It was excellent.
My girlfriend recently renewed her cell phone with Verizon and got Hulu, ESPN+ and Disney included. I got HBOMax with ATT phone so we’ve got things covered. ESPN+ is a definite plus.
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Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/top-200-classic-golf-courses-built-before-1960/
How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.
I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.
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How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.
7-8-7-6 but that was in 2013, before Hanse restoration. Have to believe it would be a tick higher now.
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Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.
I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.
John,
Spooky how often we agree. I felt same watching first 3 days, and a quick look on Bing Maps reveals:
1) Each green averages just shy of 4 bunkers (3.94 at 71 total). They look fairly deep and menacing and provide a relentless ask to "hit it here or else" on after hole after hole.
2) 6 holes have 5 or more greenside bunkers and every green except 1 , (eighth) has at least 1 fronting bunker that must be at least partially carried.
3) Over half the holes have water in play on the drive or the approach.
I'm sure its a great members club and they got a good thing going but does not appear appetizing for daily play.
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How did the four experts rate the course in the Confidential Guide? All 7s? My book is temporarily in storage.
7-8-7-6 but that was in 2013, before Hanse restoration. Have to believe it would be a tick higher now.
Ran's an easy grader as usual. LOL Darius is less enamored with American parkland courses than most analysts.
Tom D. has said before he doesn't think a restoration/renovation generally merits a change in rating, but recent pictures of other Hanse restoration projects (Waverley, LACC) seem to improve the courses dramatically.
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Southern Hills was ranked as the #38 Classic course by Golfweek last May.
I'm enjoying the tournament, but I find the course less charming than the typical major venue, and believe it is best described as relentlessly difficult. It seems like a "fair" test that doesn't favor a certain type of golfer.
John,
Spooky how often we agree. I felt same watching first 3 days, and a quick look on Bing Maps reveals:
1) Each green averages just shy of 4 bunkers (3.94 at 71 total). They look fairly deep and menacing and provide a relentless ask to "hit it here or else" on after hole after hole.
2) 6 holes have 5 or more greenside bunkers and every green except 1 , (eighth) has at least 1 fronting bunker that must be at least partially carried.
3) Over half the holes have water in play on the drive or the approach.
I'm sure its a great members club and they got a good thing going but does not appear appetizing for daily play.
Spooky indeed!
It probably is a good member's course. It would depend a fair amount on where the typical mowing lines are. It looks like a beautiful walk. I checked the USGA database. The course ratings are 78.2/142 from the back, then 74.7/139 from the blues and 72.2/134 from the third set of tees.
To accommodate these pro players, the setup is quite congested in areas.
In addition to having a full complement of hazards, most of the greens are perched up on high spots. The era quite a few big dropoffs from the green that are mowed close so the ball rolls down and away. It's kind of like Pinehurst that way.
There aren't a lot of "wow!" spectator moments where a player plays away from the hole and the balls trickles down to the target.
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"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign" Is there someplace where the golf gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?
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Tom D. has said before he doesn't think a restoration/renovation generally merits a change in rating, but recent pictures of other Hanse restoration projects (Waverley, LACC) seem to improve the courses dramatically.
That is interesting. I would think the TD would approve of the re-worked green edge runoffs that played such a critical role in how the players could safely approach most of the pins. We saw so many shots that landed on the wrong side roll all the way down steep slopes. Whether you like that or not, it would seem to justify a change in rating, no?
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"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign" Is there someplace where the golf architecture gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?
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"restoration, renovation, restoration, and redesign" Is there someplace where the golf gods have definitively defined each of these terms so that they can be fairly applied in practice?
I did hear that the 7th green was moved 40-50 yards back to a place much nearer a creek, so that is definitely a redesign. Restoration implies the course is restored to its original form. I don't know the history of the course, but I'd guess the changes were mostly a restoration, but also involved some changes in mowing lines.
That is interesting. I would think the TD would approve of the re-worked green edge runoffs that played such a critical role in how the players could safely approach most of the pins. We saw so many shots that landed on the wrong side roll all the way down steep slopes. Whether you like that or not, it would seem to justify a change in rating, no?
It's not clear to me whether the ball rolling off steep slopes is due to a structural change or just that the grass has been mowed close. I'm guessing the latter is true in most cases.
One thing about Southern Hills. It sure makes players bend the ball both ways off the tee. On the 18th hole, they are often required to hit a sharp fade with a mid-iron, which I think is very difficult. And Nick Zalatoris and Justin Thomas both make these plays rather effortlessly. It's really impressive.
It may seem I'm knocking Southern Hills. For the record, now that the PGA plays in May, it has to be the best venue for a major tournament in that region of the country, isn't it?
Finally, Justin Thomas played beautifully yesterday, didn't he? He was really locked in. It was a great comeback win.
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John,
It was an odd final day of the tourney for sure. Justin makes a huge comeback win despite starting the day 7 shots back and hitting a stone cold shank during his round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfkHDFL8NvA
P.S. I think Mito would have been champ had he just made that birdie putt on 17. Then he could have hit iron, iron, wedge on 18 for a fairly easy bogey and win. Guess he was doing a Phil @WingedFoot impression...
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I thought the course required the players to hit a variety of shots, including moving the ball in both directions and precise wedges and short irons. One aspect that deserves more attention is playing on bermuda. It makes bomb and gouge less of an option and challenges the short game in ways the Pros do not see very frequently.
Ira
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The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week. I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.
Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots.
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The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week. I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.
Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots.
Yes, that was very noticeable. When pros are missing their lines so badly, you know the greens are very hard to read. Pereira's chip on 18, when he absolutely had to get it close, was six to eight feet wide of the proper line. The bermuda grass makes it hard to judge speed. I get that, but the green slopes were really tricky.
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The thing that surprised me was how poor the chipping was in general all week. I can’t remember seeing so many chips and pitches either coming up way short of the hole or running past and off the greens.
Also, I know it was windy, but how far wide players were missing shots their approach shots.
Listening to PGA Tour Radio all week while traveling north I heard several hosts or analysts say that the grain in the short-grass approaches was going to make judging speed extraordinarily difficult for chips and putts.
One of the Paulsons said seeing someone grab a putter from more than a couple of feet off the green made him cringe.
Similarly they were saying judging the bounce on bump-and-run shots was going to be a big gamble.
And all of that was started before anyone teed off on Thursday.