Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on April 25, 2022, 09:29:45 AM
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In the past few weeks a few friends have quit their clubs because is was getting too expensive or it was more difficult to get tee times. Both are grieving because they are leaving courses they love and friends they have made. Ever quit your club? Or are debating quitting?
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I think both of those would be cause to have me look at the membership. It can get to a point where it is just not worth it to belong, and that would be a sad day, but I'm sure many people at dealing with that reality.
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I quit my club because it was too crowded, and as a result the experience wasn't a whole lot different than a public course. Except that I was paying for it even when I wasn't playing. At this point, I'd rather save my money and take longer summer trips to Ireland and Scotland.
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I would guess most people quit because lack of use. It seems the lack of use now might not be by choice.
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As far as my current club I could only see leaving it if I moved, had a significant change in my financial situation, or the conditions were allowed to meaningfully deteriorate.
When considering the OP I thought through my choices for my regular game over the years and realized that I have left clubs/courses for the following reasons:
- These examples are for second club memberships
> Conditions deteriorated and I lost confidence that they would be able to make it right again
> Increased membership and pricing that took a premium experience (at an already premium price) and changed the value proposition for the worse
- For primary club/course
> A few people in my regular game had disagreements with management and the game migrated to a different course that gave us all a deal if we came in as a group
> Simply got bored with the course I was playing at coupled with a regular game that was deteriorating - found a more interesting place with a better regular game that was worth the added expense
I guess it basically comes down to conditioning (especially of the greens above all else) and having a good group of guys to play with.
I do think that the underlying architecture does have an impact on which courses draw better groups of guys. I have no formal research but in my experience I have found that courses with a length (6200-6500) and interest levels conducive to good 45-65 year old players are the ones that tend to maintain good groups of good players welcoming to many age groups. If a course is too long and hard, the older players will tend to fade out of the game because you can't beat length on a course that excessively rewards it relative to other parts of the skill set. Conversely, if it is too short and uninteresting the good younger players won't be interested. My anecdotal evidence is based on being a decent club/local level player for the past 40+ years having a game between a 3 and 7 index depending on how life infringes on my time.
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It's interesting to me that we're already seeing conditioning as an answer. It seems so very "American."
FWIW I decided about 50 years ago to stop complaining about golf course conditions. It's simply not worth the space in my day.
At the time I played at the only course in town, and by any measure it was awful.
Waist-high weeds in at least half of the 50-odd bunkers. Shoulder-high fireweed in large areas of rough. Greens with huge patches of bare ground. Cart-packed hardpan around every green. Ad infinitum.
But we played.
Where I'm currently a member nothing of the sort exists and yet EVERY SINGLE TIME I play someone has to bitch about the condition of the course. All they're doing is making themselves unhappy.
So...the only only thing that gets me to quit is moving or a change in finances.
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I think that I would leave my club if people criticized my intentions as less than honorable. My living does not come from golf course photography and writing; I do both to further access to courses and the humans involved in golf. To question my integrity is beyond the pale.
Oh, wait, you were talking about an actual golf club, and not GCA?
Whoops. Cat's out of the bag.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's interesting to me that we're already seeing conditioning as an answer. It seems so very "American."
Ken I think it's all about value, I don't think that's an "American" thing. People are going to leave a club if they no longer see appropriate value. I also don't think constant complaining is a strictly "American" thing.
Clubs are often very expensive in the US and they are able to charge a premium. Reasons I can come up with for the higher prices are prestige, premium golf, networking and often service.
If people think they can get an equivalent experience (prestige, high quality course, conditioning, pace of play, tee time availability, proximity to home, netowrking/friends...) somewhere else for less without a lot of hassle it would be silly to stay. Similarly people may leave if they can get a better experience even if it cost more (ie better value).
I've left clubs because I've moved. I could have continued as a member paying non-resident dues, but the ones I've left didn't provide sufficient value to continue paying any dues. I have paid membership dues for the last 10 years at a course I haven't visited in that time. I do it because it still has value. The value comes in various forms, but primarily future value that I'll hopefully utilize.
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Ever quit your club? Or are debating quitting?
I've resigned from more than half-dozen clubs in my time, mostly due to better opportunities and location.
I'm currently contemplating a change because my club of some 8 years is under new ownership and it appears to be adopting an operating plan of high use/low maintenance more common in the daily-fee segment. A new online tee time system now allows any member to jump in on your time to fill it up to five players. In the past, the pro shop would try to match players looking for a game with those having openings on their times based on compatibility factors such as walking/riding, pace and level of play, tees, etc. Getting on the course has not been a problem with the possible exception of some weekend mornings, but for whatever reason, there is high demand for the early times by a few golfers who still want to play at a leisurely pace.
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Bankruptcy and not wanting to belong to the new owner's club.
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I left my club last fall. They wouldn't elect me to the board so I quit. ;) Not really. It just became too painful to play with arthritis in cold damp weather which now seems to be half the year. Didn't want to pay for golf I wasn't playing.
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It's interesting to me that we're already seeing conditioning as an answer. It seems so very "American."
Ken I think it's all about value, I don't think that's an "American" thing. People are going to leave a club if they no longer see appropriate value. I also don't think constant complaining is a strictly "American" thing.
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It seems to me you didn't get what Ken meant. Golf is not about "conditioning". To leave a club over conditioning seems fickle to some. Lots of golfers enjoy their golf on poorly conditioned golf courses and could care less. While others insist on immaculate conditions on lousy golf courses. I prefer to play with those not concerned about conditioning over these that seem to think it is the be all end all of golf.
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There is a big difference between conditioning being the “be all and end all” and not wanting to play on diseased greens with bare patches and weeds. Leaving a club for a better conditioned one that you’re willing to pay for is a personal choice. Leaving a club that cut maintenance to the detriment of basic playability is something else.
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It's so different here in Florida where our golf club is part of a gated community of 893 homes. We still belong even though it has been 14 years since we have played golf because we have family and dear friends who live in the community.
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8)
Obviously at some point price impacts most of us but for me the worst thing is lack of competition. Given it's the only sport left for me where I can be competitive at some level , "gotta have a game". I see this at every level at golf clubs, whether it be a weekly womens' league , junior events or "skins game" that runs weekly.
In Philadelphia we have the GAP Team Matches every spring and it is a wonderful three week season where you play competitive matches against other clubs in the area. It's quite unique and many have enjoyed it over the years.
At the club level , it's great to know three times a week you just have to call in and tell someone you are "in" for the noon or early morning game. Sure beats traveling around with the same foursome trying to find a slot!
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As Joe T says, it’s all about value.
I’m willing to pay a lot for a club that offers value. But if I couldn’t play as much as I do now, or the conditions decline, or the pace of play went bad, or the management changed for the worse, or whatever, the the value declines and I’d move on.
I’ve changed memberships several times over the last 40 years. A couple of times it was to add value, but a couple of other times, it was because of decline value where I was.
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I have contemplated leaving a club but only left because I moved. It would take a lot to get me to leave my present away club. However if the dues continue to climb i might join another one.
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I get the impression that in the US that changes in how a club is run is a major factor in a lot of decisions. Over here (Scotland and perhaps the UK) I think it is usually down to an individuals circumstances and rarely due to any changes in how a club is run. With most clubs being members clubs there is generally a continuity on how they tend to operate. Certainly from my own perspective I've been a member of 5 clubs and currently I'm not a member anywhere. The reasons for leaving were moving location (4 times) and injury (once).
Niall
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Paddleball and pickleball. I have never witnessed two made up sports suck up so much of club finances.
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Paddleball and pickleball. I have never witnessed two made up sports suck up so much of club finances.
Things like that ensure I will never join a “country club” again. Just golf clubs for me.
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Paddleball and pickleball. I have never witnessed two made up sports suck up so much of club finances.
Aren’t all sports made up? ;D
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We were just sold from essentially a sole proprietor to a business entity with a portfolio of courses, an entity that is cozying up to some less than desirable characters. I hope in a year or two I still won't be able to answer your question, but we'll see.
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I spoke to two friends recently that said the club was taking on too many new members making it too crowded
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Like any broken relationship you start to see problems inside the smallest issues. It makes the break easier if you can make yourself believe you were wronged.
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Availability of tee times and/or price of the membership. I'd swallow poor conditions...for 18 months only.
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Too many morons playing music from their bags/carts disrupting the peaceful environment. It is increasingly becoming a problem.
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I quit two clubs. One was because of the liberal use of temporary greens in winter. The other was due to disliking how the club was managed and the resulting poor decisions.
I am thinking of quiting another club because the course is too crowded. Its to the point now where I don't even bother trying to get my optimum times.
Ciao
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Paddleball and pickleball. I have never witnessed two made up sports suck up so much of club finances.
Curling
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Location can make this very difficult. I live in Toronto and there aren't many courses in the city. I am about a three minute drive from my course, since I joined the club 23 years ago I have moved twice, both times closer to the club. Other golf clubs would be about a 30 minute drive, or more in rush hour traffic. Even if I get pissed off about various things it is hard to give up the convenience of living that close to the club.
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An expensive inept remodeling.
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Why would I leave my club? Probably nothing to do with the golf course. If the culture changed to where I didn’t want to be there, I’m gone.
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Nothing more fun than a club that doesn’t want you there so you show up every day out of spite. Some days you don’t even golf, just have a drink, knock around a free balls, anything to make them look at your ugly mug and smile. Then just when they know they can’t win...Quit.
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About a year after I joined my club I sent the board a resignation letter, effective at the end of the summer season. Soon after, I said, "whoops," I don't really want to do that and was allowed to revoke my resignation letter before the effective date. Reason for the abandoned resignation: I was still working full time and in looking at it, I was hardly ever able to play golf at the club, so it seemed like a bad deal for me. Why the "whoops"? I started thinking about retirement and that since it wasn't all that expensive to keep paying dues and the food minimum, if I could hold on until I retired and had all the time to play I could work in, it would be a very good long term deal. It has been.
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8) Not sure, after 30 years at WCC, seen many things, but hard to beat convenience of playing 5.5 courses at 5 to 15 minutes away... only a big injury would take me out.
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8) Not sure, after 30 years at WCC, seen many things, but hard to beat convenience of playing 5.5 courses at 5 to 15 minutes away... only a big injury would take me out.
WCC?
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8) Tommy,
WCC is The Woodlands Country Club, north side of Houston
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Re-appointing Greg Norman as the consulting architect... I have already warned the club president (a former class mate) that my reaction should that occur might be 'unpredictable'.
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Re-appointing Greg Norman as the consulting architect... I have already warned the club president (a former class mate) that my reaction should that occur might be 'unpredictable'.
Was he the original architect?
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It seems like the conventional wisdom of the 1 person membership vs 1 + spouse should be questioned.
Who is more likely to spend more time down at the club on the range or the course? A married guy with additional responsibilities trying to balance the home/work/relationship/leisure? Or the single person where perhaps its just work and golf?
Seems like a single guy would get far more use of the facilities in the aggregate over a 1+ spouse arrangement.
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I could be enticed to leave a club when the majority of the members try to micro-manage the fee structure in a way to "penalize" others for various reasons rather than being attuned to the collective.
Every year that ratio changes, I am sure we are getting near the tipping point.
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Sounds like a good time to repeat my father’s advice to me years ago.
“Never join a club owned by the members. Only join one owned my a dictator whose values happen to align with yours”.
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Two reasons regarding club itself (versus personal health or wealth):
1. Play becomes too slow, particularly when sneaking out for nine holes during the week.
2. Members think it is okay to treat staff with anything except respect.
Ira
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Outside of losing one of the two courses, probably an unnecessary large assessment for non-golf related capital projects. I have heard about some rather steep 5 figure assessments at clubs and that would give me pause if it wasn't golf related.
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Outside of losing one of the two courses, probably an unnecessary large assessment for non-golf related capital projects. I have heard about some rather steep 5 figure assessments at clubs and that would give me pause if it wasn't golf related.
Jeff, I was a member at a club that out to a vote doing one of three things: enlarge the clubhouse, regrass the fairways and greens, and enlarge and improve the practice area. We voted but never found out what the vote was. The BoD decided to do all three and gave us a very large assessment. We lost dozens of members and the club never recovered and was sold.
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I quit because of lack of time to play. As the kids got older, and my weekends were consumed (happily) with their practices and games and tournaments, I could no longer justify paying dues to a course I very rarely played.
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Re-appointing Greg Norman as the consulting architect... I have already warned the club president (a former class mate) that my reaction should that occur might be 'unpredictable'.
Was he the original architect?
The original architect was Alister MacKenzie.. Tom Doak was appointed a couple of years ago.
Both the current and former General Managers have emailed me saying that was the "right decision'...
If I could bounce Norman off the membership list I'd be even happier.
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The only thing that would cause me to leave my club was if I was no longer able to play golf. The club is two minutes from my house, we have 3 courses which I would never claim to be outstanding gca but most importantly, I have a group of about 30 guys, nearly all of whom are retired and we have games everyday except Monday when they are closed. We also have a benevolent dictator as an owner where we pay our dues and we have no food minimums and no assessments. Sure, there are things that could be better but to me having fun with friends is the most important part of the game and I get that at my club.
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Quitting your club because of overcrowding and the subsequent price increase is a three-way solution.
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Outside of losing one of the two courses, probably an unnecessary large assessment for non-golf related capital projects. I have heard about some rather steep 5 figure assessments at clubs and that would give me pause if it wasn't golf related.
regrass the fairways and greens, and enlarge and improve the practice area. We voted but never found out what the vote was.
This seems to be a constant thing-regrassing with the latest grass/strains of grass,of which there is rarely any grass alive/available to the clubface at all around the greens once the project is done and the maintenance practices applied. The once ON the greens the slopes have to be altered because the "pins aren't fair"
My two most enjoyable rounds of the year came consecutively on the courses with the MOST grass, one with an unlimited budget and a heavy overseed, the other a humble 9 hole muni.
In both cases the fairways had abundant undulation which actually mattered in the fairways because the ball would stop on a severe sidehill or downhill lie in the fairway, encouraging driving accuracy,making angles matter and requiring skill to execute from(as opposed to rolling to a flat area or rough) and in both cases the greens (at least the day I played) were the appropriate speed to make the highly interesting and undulating greens shine, while enabling some more severe, interesting fun pins on slopes of multiple degrees.
I just wish we more critically evaluated the courses down the street(The Jones') and the way they played, before we tried to "keep up with" them