Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: PCCraig on April 21, 2022, 01:47:50 PM
-
Both opening holes at these George Thomas designed courses start with short, reachable par-5's.
Riviera
One of the more famous opening tee shots in golf, the player stands (literally) in the shadow of one of the most famous clubhouses in golf. There is a significant amount of width off the tee, but much of it is covered in rough.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv1t.jpg)
The 2nd shot is played over a barranca, and the primary challenge is to line up the best angle for a putt or chip to that day's pin for your third.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv1g.jpg)
The green at Riviera's first is extraordinary for its horseshoe nature, and the severity of its fronting greenside bunker. There is a major difference in difficulty depending on the hole location. On the left, the layup is relatively simple and a 4 would be a likely score. A pin on the right would require a fairly testy chip either over the bunker (as shown above) or from rough short right of the green. Certainly the strategy would be improved if the short grass was expanded significantly short and right of the green.
LACC
Much as with Riviera, the first tee at LACC brings the player a tremendous sense of place as it sits in the shadow of a sprawling white clubhouse, terrace, and putting green. Not to mention the row of rose bushes planted by George Thomas himself.
While not elevated in the same way, the hole flows downhill with the Beverly Hilton serving as the primary backdrop in the distance.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LAa.jpg)
The tee shot has width as well, yet this width is in the form of 150 yards of short grass. The strategic interest comes from either carrying the shorter bunker on the right, or hugging the left bunker for a better angle of attack on the 2nd shot.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/e.jpg)
The green, while not as visually dramatic as Riviera's horseshoe, is shaped almost as a redan with a huge amount of slope from short right to back left. Any lay ups must take on a huge fairway hazard 80 yards short right. Any approach to this green requires a ball to land well short of its target. The player then hopes for a good bounce, but not too much of a bounce as long of the green is a severe drop off.
LACC gets the slight edge due to the added strategic interest from tee to green.
Match
LACC - 1 up
-
Ooh this is going to be good. How are you going to work Fowler’s Little Seventeenth in? :)
-
Surprising that no one has done this before.
Fairway width on 1 at Riv is silly, but the green complex sublime. The second shot is plenty interesting. Going for the green is tempting, but positioning is important. The left bunker 100 yards short complicates a layup. I would give the edge to Riviera.
-
I would halve the first hole as neither one stands out above the other. The tee shot at Riv is cool having your name called out. Rustic Canyon has a better opening par-5 than both, with more interest and strategy.
-
I guess the natural question is since when was Bel-Air deemed chopped-liver in the Battle for LA? Especially now that its been returned to its former glory...
-
Let me guess the rest having not seen the courses in years...
2 is hard, mabye the edge goes to LACC
3 LACC
4 Riv
5 is tough but goes to Riv
6 Riv
7 LACC
8 LACC
9 Riv
10 Riv
11 LACC
12 Riv
13 LACC in a nailbiter
14 LACC
15 Riv
16 Riv but its clsoe
17 LACC
18 Riv
We end all square...
-
I guess the natural question is since when was Bel-Air deemed chopped-liver in the Battle for LA? Especially now that its been returned to its former glory...
Because I haven't been to Bel-Air and can't speak to it? ;D
-
I guess the natural question is since when was Bel-Air deemed chopped-liver in the Battle for LA? Especially now that its been returned to its former glory...
Because I haven't been to Bel-Air and can't speak to it? ;D
I've also never heard anyone say that Bel-Air (even as restored) is "better" than either.
-
Wow, another thread gone off the rails.
PCCraig, good work, continue on.
-
The similarities continue on the 2nd hole, both approximately 450 yard par-4.5.
Riviera
The 2nd at Riviera is a dogleg right. Trees are on the right and the driving range screen is on the left. One can't help but think they could use the screen as a bumper if hitting a draw. The green is banked up against the massive hill the clubhouse sits on, giving it a subtle redan feel, making the player want to hug the left side of the fairway. Curiously the only fairway bunker is on the right/inside corner of the dogleg. Overall a wonderful hole and effectively the 2nd par-4.5 in a row.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv2a.jpg)
LACC
The 2nd at LACC is a slight dogleg to the left with a subtle uphill tee shot to a ridgetop. On the approach you could be confused as to what direction to go in as there are two greens...yet the one up the hill on the right is unoriginal and the new restored green sits on the left in a dramatic location just over the barranca. The current green has a number of interesting ruffles in it, including a neat backdrop feature behind the pin shown below.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/LACC2g.jpg)
LACC wins hole 2 in a close one. Riviera's 2nd could be extraordinary if some short grass is brought back right of the green. LACC's 2nd green sits in such a dramatic place and the approach shot is a thrilling one over the unkempt barranca.
Match
LACC - 2up
-
My general thoughts. LACC is the better property and is currently way closer to expressing its full potential. Instinctively though, I believe that Riv is the greater design.
-
Does Riviera get a plus for the Kikuyu and Eucalyptus or a minus?
-
Riviera's 2nd could be extraordinary if some short grass is brought back right of the green.
It is now short grass right of the green.
-
Even more similarities come on the 3rd holes. Both are medium length par-4's that feature loads of strategic interest.
Riviera
The 3rd at Riviera features a left to right tee shot that plays around a good sized slope/hill on the right. The strategy off the tee is to flirt as much as possible with the left bunker in order to gain the better angle to the green. From that angle you can carry the left/short bunker to find easier access to the pin. If not, the greenside bunker on the right is in play and it's is an incredible one - deep, hard, and a difficult up and down. A very strong hole.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv3.jpg)
LACC
The third teeing ground at LACC is a stunning corner of the property. With little 17 to your left and a rolling/heaving fairway (which made me feel like home for this WBYC guy!) ahead at the 3rd. The large green is bisected in front by a deep, mean looking bunker. The pin location dictates the strategy off the tee between hitting a driver, laying back, and angle.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC3a2.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC3g.jpg)
Both are wonderful, world class, holes. But I would give the edge to LACC for its third given the multitudes of strategic options.
MATCH
LACC - 3 UP
-
I guess the natural question is since when was Bel-Air deemed chopped-liver in the Battle for LA? Especially now that its been returned to its former glory...
Because I haven't been to Bel-Air and can't speak to it? ;D
I've also never heard anyone say that Bel-Air (even as restored) is "better" than either.
It's not and I've never heard anyone say that either. Heck I don't think there's a consensus 3rd place in LA, but the top 2 are well-ahead.
My general thoughts. LACC is the better property and is currently way closer to expressing its full potential. Instinctively though, I believe that Riv is the greater design.
I agree with the first part - the second is harder to visualize currently.
-
I will admit to not having the inside scoop on the best of LA offerings.
That being said, several courses like NGLA, Crystal Downs, etc, were thought to be chumps for decades until a closer look in conjunction with research and restorative efforts shot them far up the best of lists...
-
When I was at Riv for '83 PGA, #2 was played as a par 5 for membership and par 4 for professional play. I don't know if that's still true but (without giving deep thought to the matter) I'm generally inclined to take points off when "par" conflicts with the design. When designing #2 on Riv did George Thomas anticipate the hole being played as a par 4?
-
If this is honest match play, why aren't #1 and #2 "halved"? There was no special difference cited; just tiny subjective margins; difference between a win and half in match play is enormous...difference between winning 3 or losing 4 is enormous. Saw nothing clear offered as to why those holes can't be halved, in a honest match comparison.
-
If this is honest match play, why aren't #1 and #2 "halved"? There was no special difference cited; just tiny subjective margins; difference between a win and half in match play is enormous...difference between winning 3 or losing 4 is enormous. Saw nothing clear offered as to why those holes can't be halved, in a honest match comparison.
Let’s discuss. Why would you say 1 and 2 should be halved? I have my opinions, which is the 1st at Riviera is hampered by a lack of appropriate short grass, and the 2nd at Riv has a terrible range net to the left and is slightly less interesting and dramatic than its opponent.
I’m not sure one hole has to be the clear and absolute superior to win a hole. Consider a real life match can sometimes be decided by a lip out! :)
-
Two classics for sure......... and both have had less dramatic changes than many courses that have been renovated. Maybe that's because the original architects did such a good job? I remember a couple of the old tee boxes at Riviera that are no longer there, but would be fun to add back for occasional play. #2 was originally a Par 5 with a small tee box just off the right edge of #1 green.
#10 used to have a small tee box, no bigger than a dinner table, cut into the hill just off the right edge of #18 green! :) [size=78%] [/size]
-
Let’s discuss. Why would you say 1 and 2 should be halved? I have my opinions, which is the 1st at Riviera is hampered by a lack of appropriate short grass, and the 2nd at Riv has a terrible range net to the left and is slightly less interesting and dramatic than its opponent.
I’m not sure one hole has to be the clear and absolute superior to win a hole. Consider a real life match can sometimes be decided by a lip out! :)
I'm not sure it does either...and I'm merely going off your descriptions that broadcast very slight, even subjective differences... I've never played or visited LACC...
#1 How come that one of a kind teeing experience and amazing first green not give it a slight "edge;" as for fairway grass, I went to the Genesis two months ago and there was no rough on the Riviera property unless you count 1/4" wispy brown, unprepared ground as an impingement on shots and a restriction on design. They could make two gang cuts on either side of the fairway and satisfy your basic objection... draw/halve at the very least... debatably a win for Riviera.
#2 - You've got scant remarks for the 2nd Riv green which is one of the sportiest things you'll ever find at the end of a brawny hole, in a beautiful location. Again, I've never seen LACC up close or with detail, so I'm taking your word, but if a range net loses the hole, then I'd ask Riviera to put the range back, east of the course as it was for a number of early years...will the range net harm #10 when you get to that tee, and you can see it all?
My feeling is LACC ought be 1 up after 3...not 3 up....There doesn't seem to be much decisive difference in the first two holes on a comparative basis.
-
I don't agree on the first hole.
1st hole at riv, better tee box and opening shot. enough short grass for sure!, makes you think on the opening hole if you hit driver or 3 wood more than LACC.
Green complex is better at Riv on 1st hole. LACC 1st hole is nice easy warm up where only a shank or slice/draw can get you in trouble from making par. The green complex at Rivera 1st alone, bunker in front of green, just an easy win for Riv on that hole
-
Your third hole description, I believe you have the LACC tee box and little 17th on left mixed up.
That's on the second hole, looking left, not the third.
-
Pat,
That's a generous photo you posted of #2 at Riviera - you can't see the giant practice range net down the left side of the hole. I know when comparing shot values we shouldn't count those things, but it made that hole forgettable for me. Haven't played LACC but the 1 & 2 scores looks right to me based on the photos. Looking forward to the rest.
-
Let's put the results up to a good old-fashioned vote! Please use use this Google Form (https://forms.gle/H9UW7N27Tem2szai8) to vote for hole-by-hole winners. You can do the whole 18 in one go, or you can submit votes for individual hole numbers as we go along. Just please don't vote twice for the same hole number!
-
As a guy who has never played either course...
1. I'm following this thread. Won't have much to add, but glad it exists and will keep clicking it and reserve the right to share completely ignorant opinions void of firsthand context.
2. Agree with others who cite the tendency to pick a winner for each hole when halves happen often in true match play.
3. I just can't believe that flat-looking journey towards a hotel on the horizon at LACC's opener stands up against one of the more recognizable openers in golf. Even if there are things to complain about with Riviera's opener from an architectural standpoint, don't we have to give it some cred as one of the most anticipated opening shots in golf, dropping us into one of the most incomparable settings in golf, and also appreciate the chance it offers to feel like a star in the city where that feeling matters the most, as we hear our name announced to a small gallery and take a fair shot at an even-or-better start?
-
Terrific contributions so far on the thread. I'm clearly no expert on both courses but I think this is a fun match and worthy of study & frank discussion.
Moving on to the 4th hole and shockingly they are both mid-to-long par-3's...
RIVIERA
The 4th at Riviera is nothing short of world-class. A one shot hole playing over 230 yards, the green sits behind a massive bunker short. But, alas, the hole plays along the massive ridge/hillside on the right so there is a huge Redan-esque kicker slope for the smart player to use to sling shots along the ground and toward the putting surface.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv4.jpg)
LACC
Walking off the 3rd green, you stay on the same hilltop to find the 4th green. And what a view you are rewarded with. A downhill par-3 that plays 210-220 yards, the hole is visually stunning. It is also an intimidating one as there does not appear to be a "good" place to miss your tee shot as you play down to the bottom of a wash/barranca.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Untitled-21.jpg)
Both are great golf holes. The picture above illustrates a golf hole that few golfers could possibly resist the urge to play, but to me the 4th at Riviera wins this one fairly easily. Hitting a long iron or wood and attempting to use the kicker slope to avoid the scary bunker short is a thrill and its green contours are a sight to behold.
MATCH
LACC - 2UP
-
Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?
-
Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?
Mark -
I didn't take a single photo at LACC.
Every photo on this thread has been copied over from Ran's respective profiles in "Courses by Country".
The goal of the thread is to discuss both of these great golf courses. I figured it would be easier for those following along to copy over a photo or two for comparison as opposed to them having to click and and forth between profiles.
-
Just reposting since this got stuck at the bottom of the previous page:
Let's put the results up to a good old-fashioned vote! Please use this Google Form to vote for hole-by-hole winners. You can do the whole 18 in one go, or you can submit votes for individual hole numbers as we go along. Just please don't vote twice for the same hole number!
Early nugget: 6 of the 18 holes are unanimous choices among the first half-dozen voters.
-
Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?
Mark -
I didn't take a single photo at LACC.
Every photo on this thread has been copied over from Ran's respective profiles in "Courses by Country".
The goal of the thread is to discuss both of these great golf courses. I figured it would be easier for those following along to copy over a photo or two for comparison as opposed to them having to click and and forth between profiles.
It's a good, sober thread PC; as we all know, in the end, these comparisons are fun but fictitious --it hardly matters who won, or who in God's omniscient eye is "better, " but a chance to discuss the salient features that make up GCA in pieces, on courses, or just via individual holes and elements...hopefully you'll have a 19th hole to discuss routing/flow/aesthetic atmosphere besides the courses as 18 individual competitive comparisons...
And my own refereeing has All Square through #4s LoL :D
-
Early survey results have an exact tie for #1 and solid wins for LACC on 2 and 3. LACC 2 up through 3…but things are about to change!
-
Hoping PC continues his analysis and tour? I hope the commentary hasn't dissuaded you from continuing?
-
So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).
-
So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).
Matt -
I would recommend let's take our time a bit. Maybe go through the holes in more detail, discuss, and then at the end if you want to do a vote let's do one then?
-
So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).
Matt -
I would recommend let's take our time a bit. Maybe go through the holes in more detail, discuss, and then at the end if you want to do a vote let's do one then?
The poll will stay open! I'm just giving early results.
-
On to the 5th hole...
RIVIERA
The 5th at Riviera is a mid-length par-4, with the canyon wall to the right side of the hole, similar to the 4th. The hole is awesomely strategic. Off the tee you and go right, which will bring a huge mound into play that will make your approach blind but will allow you to run up your shot toward the pin. If you play away from the mound down the left, you will have to take on the tough greenside bunker short left. The green here is really something and features a huge spine running through it and is very fun to putt. There is short grass long and balls running through the green can lead to tough up and downs.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv5a.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv5bg.jpg)
LACC
The 5th at LACC is a brute of a par-4 at over 480 yards. The tee shot plays up a hill and is semi-blind to a fairway with no fairway bunkers. The green has a couple of big fingers that move around two greenside bunkers on the right. The left side of the green is fairly open to run up shots, but in order to get that angle one must take on a grove of trees just off the fairway to the left. The fairway has a little crown on the left side and balls can easily bounce perfectly right into the fairway or left into the trees. The 5th at LACC is a solid hole, and one that will drive the average score up a bit at next year's US Open.
In my opinion, the 5th at Riviera wins this one. The big, bold features on that hole, coupled with the fun green makes for a more interesting hole overall, and one that you would want to play again immediately.
MATCH
LACC - 1UP
-
I've realized that LACC has been playing "out of turn", and since it's 1up it will play first on the 6th hole...
LACC
The tee shot on the 330 yard par-4 6th is a thrilling one. The fairway in front of you has humps and rolls galore and it's not clear as to where you should be aiming or even what club you should be hitting. Smart players will have peeked to their left while playing the 5th to see where the pin is on the 6th.
The drivable hole might tempt a long hitter to hit over a mound and shorter tree on the right to attempt to catch a slope and drive the green. As Ran notes in his profile, if the pin is on the front portion the better play might be to hit a driver long left of the green to chip backwards to the tiny target. A fantastically fun short par-4 that you would want to play again and again.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC6.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC6bg-2.jpg)
RIVIERA
The par-3 6th hole at Riviera is a well documented and famous hole...for good reason. The hole is just a mid-iron for most players, but the green is one of the most severe and fun I have ever seen. There is the famous bunker in the middle of the green, but the putting surface features huge slopes long left, long right, right, and short of the bunker that allow for very creative shots. A world-class par-3.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv6t.jpg)
The PGA Tour put together this highlight reel of all of the best shots on and around Riv's 6th hole which illustrate just how severe the green slopes are!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUuda7UXnOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUuda7UXnOI)
Both are great golf holes, but as I mention above I think the 6th at Riviera takes the edge. It's just a world class par-3 and one that is so unique and fun. The 6th at LACC is a very strong hole and perhaps it reveals itself with more plays, but Riviera's 6th is such a strong hole I don't know how this one is halved.
MATCH
ALL SQUARE THRU 6
-
On to the 7th...
RIVIERA
The 7th at Riviera is a mid-length par-4 which features a barranca on the right and formidable bunkering down the left side of the fairway. The fairway is slightly domed as well adding to the interest off the tee. I was told that this is the Pro's least favorite tee shot on the course and you can see why. The ideal tee ball will end up near the right corner of the left fairway bunkers, opening up a more open approach shot to the green. The green here is small but of appropriate size as most players won't have more than a short iron into the green.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv7t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv7a.jpg)
LACC
The 7th at LACC sits on a relatively subtle piece of land, and features a sandy waste area that cuts across the hole on a 45* angle. It features significant variety, including the ability to either play as a long ~250 yard par-3 or as a short ~290 yard par-4 when the pin is tucked back right. I personally find it thrilling to have to hit a hard 2-iron or a 3-wood on a half-par hole such as this, and it adds to the overall variety of the par-3's at LACC.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LAc.jpg)
Both are very good holes, however I give the edge to the 7th at LACC. It's half par nature and strategic waste area make for a more unique hole overall. The 7th at Riviera is a very good hole, however it appears to me that the strategy is more one dimensional as the ideal line off the tee doesn't really change from day to day or pin location to pin location.
MATCH
LACC - 1 UP
-
The survey (https://forms.gle/3mUcqx4obShQd3vB7) says...
1: Riviera, match stands at R+1
2: LACC, Tied
3: LACC, L+1
4: Riviera, Tied
5: Riviera, R+1
6. Tie, R+1
7. LACC, Tied
-
PC Craig, please continue this thread. I've been enjoying it.
Matt, I have no problem with your survey but your updates do disrupt the flow of PC's analysis. Maybe wait to post the results after PC has finished his tour and the poll's voters can "defend" their opinions?
-
On to the 8th...
LACC
Just steps from the 7th green is the 8th tee, where the player will find a shorter par-5 of about 530 yards. The fairway off the tee slopes left to right, and the player feels the need to flirt with the fairway bunkers on the left as there are trees and a barranca on the right. That barranca cuts across the hole at about 150 yards from the green and acts as a wonderful strategic hazard. If you want to go for the green in two, the shot certainly calls for a draw however the ball is below your feet. If you aren't comfortable you can easily lays up short and right but that leaves a tricky downhill-ish pitch over a greenside bunker and that barranca behind the green waiting for topped shots. Risk reward at it's finest!
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC8f.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC8gb.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC8bg.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 8th hole is visually overwhelming off of the tee. Much like the 8th at LA, a barranca is the primary feature and cuts the hole pretty much down the middle. There is a fairway left, and another right, with a table top-esque green surrounded by shortgrass. The right fairway landing area seems much more narrow, but the green appears to point toward that landing area for a potentially better angle. The left fairway also doesn't seem very forgiving with tough fairway bunkering but I'm told it's the more popular play. Going into the barranca is no picnic as it will leave you with a largely blind approach and your lie will be very unpredictable.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv8t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv8l.jpg)
Both holes are pretty spectacularly unique. I feel like the 8th at LACC is probably the better hole and the green is unique, but I can't seem to sell myself that it is better outside the margin of error. So it's a draw.
MATCH
LACC - 1 up thru 8.
-
Does the winner of this go against Rustic? ;D
-
Matt, I have no problem with your survey but your updates do disrupt the flow of PC's analysis. Maybe wait to post the results after PC has finished his tour and the poll's voters can "defend" their opinions?
Hi Peter, not a single person has voted on a hole by hole basis. Everybody who’s voted has voted for all 18 at once; in other words, nobody is waiting for discussion and analysis to vote. So whenever Craig wants to name his winner of each hole seems like an appropriate time to see whether the voters agree with him or not. Perhaps Craig should wait until the discussion of each hole has concluded rather than declaring a winner in his initial post. ;)
Incidentally, the survey has LACC winning number 7 by a decent margin of 13 to 8, with 5 voting for a tie.
-
I'm really enjoying your match Pat. Interestingly our host at LA said when pros play #8 many of them drive over the sycamores to the right fairway, leaving only a short iron in. At Riv I wish they would restore #8 to the original Thomas design. It is an excellent hole that could be even better.
-
Moving onto the 9th....
LACC
The 9th is a striking slightly uphill par-3. It plays over a deep barranca, with the beautiful sprawling clubhouse in the background as well as a very cool walking bridge. The green is bunkered short, left, and right and the green has quite a bit of tilt back to the front of the green toward the barranca. Pins on the edges of the green are tempting but aggressive play brings a bogey into play. A very memorable par-3.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC9bg.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 9th at Riviera also plays uphill toward an iconic clubhouse. At over 450 yards uphill with a smaller green it is a stout test. Off the tee the right bunker can be more easily carried, but it brings into play a more difficult approach to the green that is angled 45* toward the left side of the fairway. For the best angle the player must hug the left bunker off the tee. The green is pitched hard back to front leading to some very hard putts if the player finds themselves above the hole. A solid strategic hole.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/9small.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/9gS.jpg)
Both are solid golf holes. The 9th at LACC might be more memorable due to its dramatic setting and the heroic tee shot, but the 9th at Riviera is heavily interesting & strategic. It's tough for me to find a clear winner here, so I'll say it's a draw.
MATCH
LACC - 1up Thru 9
-
After a stop at the wonderfully old-fashioned, sunken halfway house at LACC we head to the 10th tee...
LACC
The 10th at LACC is a mid-length par-4. The tee is just steps from the 9th green and the view from there is a very attractive one. The right to left sloping fairway here is combined with the 16th and there is a massive amount of width visible. The bunker complex on the right sits on the high side of the fairway. If flirted with, or carried, the green/pin will be visible on the approach. If the player plays away from the bunkers the resulting approach shot is blind and has to take on more aggressive greenside bunkers. A solid hole.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC10.jpg)
RIVIERA
Riviera's finest hole and one of the best holes in the world. A short, drivable par-4 with a multitude of strategic options. The primary feature is the tiny, slender green that is angled just so and sloped just right that anything right of center is pretty much impossible to keep on the green, even with a chip. If this hole doesn't get your blood pumping from the tee, I would suggest picking up a different sport!
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv10t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv10al.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv10ra.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv10g2.jpg)
The 10th at LACC is a fine hole but Riviera wins this one fairly easily.
MATCH
All square through 10
-
Interestingly, Shackelford tipped Riviera for a future US Open in the early 2030s. I thought if LACC went well next year it might get another but for reasons as of yet unclear there are at least rumblings that they are going to Riviera instead.
-
Survey says:
8 strongly to LACC, LACC 2 up
9 to Riviera, LACC 1 up
10 unanimously to Riviera, tied
-
RIVIERA
The 11th at Riviera is a mid-length par-5. The tee shot is a narrow one, with trees left and right as well as the driving range on your left. Interestingly there isn't a single fairway bunker on the hole. Strategic interest comes on the second shot which must cover a barranca that sits about 150 yards out from the green. With today's technology, as long as the tee ball lands in the fairway the carry over the barranca is not as daring as it was with previous generations. The green has an interesting knob but as compared to other greens at Riviera it is fairly benign. A solid & strategic par-5.
[size=78%]
LACC
The 11th at LACC is nothing short of stunning. A downhill par-3 that can play upwards of 275 yards (!!) from the back tee, the hole plays similarly to a reverse redan. The player aims their long iron at the kicker slope or at worst the left side of the green and watches as firm turf and gravity takes their ball toward the hole. If the green is missed, there are sharp fall offs left, long, and right making for tough up and downs. The hole is a wonderful combination of both natural beauty with the surrounding barrancas but with downtown Los Angeles in the background.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/la4.jpg)
The 11th at LACC is a world class par-3 and takes this round from Riviera fairly easily.
MATCH
LACC - 1up through 11.[/size]
-
#12
LACC
As the 11th plays steeply downhill toward a barranca, the 12th turns you around and marches you back up hill. The tee shot makes this WBYC guy feel right at home as it plays uphill, and blind, over a giant knob. Once over the hill, the golfer is greeted with an intimidating approach shot to a green heavily guarded by deep bunkers. The pin position of the day greatly influences the angle off the tee for most golfers.
*Photos of this hole are borrowed from Linksgems, who has a photo tour posted on the Geeked on Golf Website
(https://i0.wp.com/geekedongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/lacc12-tee.png)
(https://i0.wp.com/geekedongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/lacc12-approach.png)
(https://i0.wp.com/geekedongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/lacc12-greenback.png)
RIVIERA
The 12th plays SW with the canyon wall to the players left. The idea tee shot on this mid-length par-4 is left center as that will allow the player a clean angle to most pins. With trouble left though, many players must guide their ball down the right side of the hole. The approach on the 12th is beautiful. It plays over a barranca, features a deep bunker short right, and the stately Humphry Bogart tree on the left.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/Riv12g.jpg)
While the 12th at LACC is a fine hole and one that should challenge the Pro's next year with some tucked pins, the approach shot on the 12th at Riviera is so special that I think it gets the nod in a one-on-one match.
MATCH
ALL SQUARE THROUGH 12
-
#13
RIVIERA
While the 12th at Riviera favors a fade off the tee, the 13th almost requires a draw as the hole doglegs to the left around some massive trees. The trees block the barranca on the left and its unclear why they remain other than perhaps to force PGA Tour golfers to play a certain type of shot off the tee. There is a bunker about 50 yards short and right...the only bunker on the hole. A fine hole but perhaps not Riviera's finest in its current shape. Certainly the hole would benefit from cutting the trees on the left and having the play be to hug the barranca as much as possible off the tee to get the best angle into a green that slopes right to left?
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv13t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv13a.jpg)
LACC
The 13th at LACC also a mid-to-long par-4. The tee shot here is very strategic and dictated by the land. The carry to the fairway plateau is much shorter if the player goes down the right, however the approach must then carry some mean looking bunkers to get to the putting surface. If the player can carry the left side, they are rewarded with a open route to the green, one where the shot can be run up via the ground game on this firm golf course. While putting, you'll hear a bunch of squawking from the Playboy Mansion's birds...located just behind the hedge in the photos below!
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC13.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC13g.jpg)
The 13th at LACC is a very strong hole and in their current form(s), I think takes the prize for the better 13th of the two.
MATCH
LACC - 1up through 13
-
#14
LACC
The 13th green surrounds flow nicely into the 14th tee, just steps away. The 14th is a long par-5 that runs along a ridge that has a steeper & steeper drop off on the right side of the hole the closer you get to the putting surface. The player can choose to make the hole play shorter by hugging the right side, but the drop off an numerous bunkers come into play. Further, the approach to the green is certainly less scary coming in from the right side. A more conservative player can play down the left side of the ample fairway, but will leave a tricky 3rd shot. The green is a beautiful one and sits right on the edge of the ridge and features a number of humps & bumps leading to some smaller targets for those looking for a birdie. A wonderful hole.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/image002.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/image0011.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 14th at Riviera is a medium length par-3. A fine hole but in the grand scheme of these two great courses a more pedestrian hole. It sits on flat land and is dominated by large bunkers short left and right. The green slopes mostly back to front. A strong hole that would fit on most "championship" golf courses, but this one sticks out as compared to the rest of the spectacular par-3's at Riviera.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv14.jpg)
MATCH
LACC - 2 UP through 14
-
#15
LACC
After the brawny 14th, the player is presented with the puckish short par-3 15th. The hole played just 78 (!!) yards for the Walker Cup matches, but can stretch back to as much as ~130 yards. The green is a giant skinny horseshoe wrapped around a mean pot-esque bunker in the middle. Situated on somewhat flat land, the slightly elevated green sits at eyelevel which makes the shot all that more intimidating. A wonderful capstone to an all-world set of par-3's.
[size=78%]
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LA15g.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LACC15br.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 15th at Riviera is a lovely mid-length par-4 that sits on flat land, pretty much in the middle of the canyon that the course sits in. It doglegs right around a deep and nasty fairway bunker which dictates strategy off the tee. However where the hole shines is in the spectacular green complex which sits high front left, then dips, then rises again in the back right.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv15t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv15fb.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv15g.jpg)
Both terrific holes with great greens, I would call this a tie.
MATCH
LACC - 2 UP THRU 15.[/size]
-
Any predictions for the remainder of the match?
-
I've mentioned that I've never seen LACC, but Rivs 16th 17th and 18th are a great trio of holes... really sweetens the end of the round and the memorability of what you played... indeed, on those holes, you also revisit and passby the most fun area of the round (4-6) and by 17 green/18 tee have beautiful vistas over 3,9 and 10.
As for your acct of the match, you're entitled, but I repeat #s 1 and 2 were not fairly matched. Those are appealing, interesting and memorable holes at Riv. Should have been even through 2.
Since then, you've been much more even-handed, imo; continues to be a worthy tour.
-
Riv has to win 18. LACC should win 17. 16 is a close call.
-
Any predictions for the remainder of the match?
Pat,
Here's my guess:
- 16 halved
- 17 LA wins
- 18 Riv wins
I'm enjoying this tour of two great courses.
-
I was extremely fortunate to play in the George C. Thomas tournament at LACC last week. As a side note, here are the changes I noticed in advance of the US Open:
1. Fairway narrowed on both sides.
6. Rough brought in short-right of green.
8. Layup area narrowed dramatically.
10. Rough grown over fairway bunkers—can't blast long-right towards 16 fairway.
12. Fairway narrowed significantly.
13. Fairway widened 10-12 yards on left side. There was only about 15 yards of fairway where the ball would stay up on top—fine if the left rough is no big deal, but not fair with US Open rough there. Now there is 25 yards of fairway the ball will actually stay in (and another 25 it won't).
14. Fairway narrowed significantly on left side. This will be a difficult tee shot to get in the fairway.
16. Modest narrowing but more having to do with #10.
18. Left ~20 yards of fairway converted to rough. Hole now plays out to the right as a big dogleg left, an awkward tee shot. Rough also grown farther towards green on left side so players can't drive past it.
More relevant to this thread, I go back and forth on certain holes at LACC vs. Riviera; for me, Riviera usually comes out about 1 up, ±1 hole depending on the day. But LACC captures my imagination more and resides in my top 3 courses I've played. I think there are two reasons for that. One is that I've always had a strong affinity for holes that play very differently depending on the hole location. LACC has more of those simply because its greens are generally larger, and although both courses have some interesting green shapes, LACC has a few more (which means the target areas are still small; also, I say this having played LACC with tournament hole locations and Riviera with daily play ones).
Second, although both courses are beautiful, LACC is clearly more visually stunning than Riviera. I think it's just a reality that we play a very visual sport. The restoration at LACC made the course better in many ways, but visually was one of them. For example, the shot required on the 4th hole didn't really change when it went from this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52183441997_87f90770d5_c.jpg)
To this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52184716044_49f353cb1c_c.jpg)
...but I know which one gets me more excited. And 8 changed a little, but given these two photos from basically the same spot:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52184473038_2df9bee0cb_c.jpg)
vs.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52184466641_18d411fdf1_c.jpg)
...there's no question that the hole got way cooler, even if the shots required are basically the same. So when Tommy Naccarato creates images of #6 at Riviera showing now:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52184713229_c196e6ed17_c.jpg)
vs. after a proposed renovation:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52184713134_5b065ca3c9_c.jpg)
...I think my experience of LACC is proof enough for me that this would make a huge difference in how a feel about Riviera as a whole vs. doing a hole-by-hole exercise. I love Riviera; it's in my top handful of courses I've played. But I have LACC ranked a step higher, possibly my #1, and I think the difference between the two courses is almost entirely visual and presentation rather than in the quality of the architecture.
-
Matt -
Very interesting changes. I can't say i'm surprised by any of the narrowing, but find it a bit sad.
I was surprised not to see anything about #17. As I recall during the Walker Cup everyone played up 2. I figured they would have to do something to prevent that, but don't see anything that you listed. Did they add some trees or otherwise change the corridor between 2 and 17?
I'm also wondering about spectator access and flow to the course and especially to shared corridors like 1/18, 2/17, 10/16, 13/14 tee areas. Did you hear anything about where spectators will enter, where the merchandise tents and corporate tents will be, and whether spectators will bet between 1 and 18, 2 and 17, etc.?
Adam
-
Matt -
Very interesting changes. I can't say i'm surprised by any of the narrowing, but find it a bit sad.
I was surprised not to see anything about #17. As I recall during the Walker Cup everyone played up 2. I figured they would have to do something to prevent that, but don't see anything that you listed. Did they add some trees or otherwise change the corridor between 2 and 17?
I'm also wondering about spectator access and flow to the course and especially to shared corridors like 1/18, 2/17, 10/16, 13/14 tee areas. Did you hear anything about where spectators will enter, where the merchandise tents and corporate tents will be, and whether spectators will bet between 1 and 18, 2 and 17, etc.?
Adam
Looking at it now, on Google Maps 2 and 17 are conjoined fairways, but they are now separate. The rough was especially thick between those fairways last week, but I assume the whole course will be like that next summer. Interestingly, with the new 18th fairway, some players played 18 up #1!
I didn't hear anything about those other details, but I imagine that like Merion the emphasis will be on getting spectators into grandstands. It seems like a tough place to get people around—lots of squeeze points. I'm sure most of the tents will be on 1-2 and 17-18 of the South along with the space between 12, 13, and 14.
-
After a brief rain delay ;) we're onto the 16th...
LACC
The 16th at LACC is a long two shot hole with a back tee stretching the hole to over 500 yards, with a fall off hillside left off the tee and another on the right closer to the green. Tee shots hugging the left hazard off the tee are rewarded with an approach that does not have to carry a long cross bunker short of the green. The hole sits on a beautiful piece of rolling ground and demands two strong shots to reach the putting surface in regulation.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/d.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 16th at Riviera is a beautiful mid-length par-3, in particular during the golden hour as the below photos were taken. The green is very severely sloped back to front, with a player wanting to keep below the hole for a decent chance at a birdie and a lower chance of a 3-putt. However a deep and intimidating bunker sits short of the green waiting for weakly hit tee balls.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv16.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv16b.jpg)
Both holes are solid, but relatively straightforward from a strategic standpoint. However, I would give the slight nod to the 16th at Riviera due to it's stunning setting and fun factor due to it's severe green & bunkering.
MATCH
LACC - 1UP thru 16
-
As we begin the lead up to the 2023 US Open in two weeks, I thought I would finish this match... :)
LACC
The 17th at LACC is stunningly beautiful, yet strategic, 450 yard par-4. The hole's primary strategy is to hug the barranca on the right to allow for the best angle into the very narrow green.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Untitled-3.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Untitled-11.jpg)
RIVIERA
The 17th at Riviera is a longer par-5 which climbs ever so slightly uphill, or at least it feels that way this late in the round. it is one of the most heavily bunkered holes on the course, which requires the player to navigate between them on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shots.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv17f.jpg)
While a very fine hole, I would argue the 17th at Riviera does not stack up to one of LACC's finest and (admittedly) scenic holes.
MATCH
LACC - 2UP thru 17
-
Love this!
thank you
-
With the exception of #8, #17 at Riviera is probably more in need of a restoration than any other hole out there.
-
This thread is wonderful and bringing back lots of memories.
I really hope they get it as firm and fast as the Members want it to be in a couple of weeks. It might end up being the nearest comparison to Royal Melbourne given the width and need to be in the right position to attack pins.
I was blown away by the work done to Riviera when I went last year. It was so much better than when I'd last been (late 2000s). My understanding is that they are seen as a suitable host for a US Open in the future and the club desires that. There's not been an announcement yet though but it's a relatively open secret from what I understand.
-
Terrific thread.
As an FYI, I have a Practice Round ticket to Monday at LACC that I won't be using. Free to the first one interested, please PM me.
Thanks!
Kalen
-
Terrific thread.
As an FYI, I have a Practice Round ticket to Monday at LACC that I won't be using. Free to the first one interested, please PM me.
Thanks!
Kalen
Damn I would have taken it if lived near ;D
-
Terrific thread.
As an FYI, I have a Practice Round ticket to Monday at LACC that I won't be using. Free to the first one interested, please PM me.
Thanks!
Kalen
Damn I would have taken it if lived near ;D
Its still on the table if there is any interest. My preference is to give it away to a tree house architect nerd.. ;)
-
A quick note of appreciation for the wonderfully cool "little 17" at LACC. The green sits to the right of the 17th green, at the base of the barranca. If play allows, you can drop a ball in the fairway between 2 and 17 and play a ~120 yard shot to little 17, a very penal but beautiful hole:
(https://i0.wp.com/geekedongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/laccl17-teezoom.png?resize=750%2C425&ssl=1)
-
Happy US Open week. On to the home hole!
LACC
The 18th at LACC tees off just steps from the 1st green and plays back along the same corridor toward the clubhouse. The hole bends gently to the left around two large bunkers...one just off the tee and one greenside. The playing corridor is massive and gives the impression of a great lawn. Generally the strategy is to hit your tee ball into the right area of the giant field to give yourself the best angle into that day's pin. Behind the green sits the beautiful white clubhouse.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/a.jpg)
RIVIERA
The home hole at Riviera is perhaps its most famous thanks to their hosting an annual PGA Tour event. The tee shot is epic...uphill & blind over a 30ft tall ridge. The second shot is again uphill and toward a green that sits within its famous amphitheater. After playing the previous 17 challenging holes, the 18th is quite a tough two shots to close the round. The clubhouse looms over the hole as you play it.
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv18t.jpg)
(https://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Riv18a.jpg)
LACC's 18th is a fine hole and should make for a picturesque setting for the final hole of a US Open, however the 18th at Riviera is an epic finishing hole.
MATCH
LACC wins 1UP
Final thoughts thoughts to follow. But curious to hear where others opinions would differ.