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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike Hendren on April 14, 2022, 10:39:07 AM

Title: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mike Hendren on April 14, 2022, 10:39:07 AM
Mid Pines:


Firm and fast.
Understated maintenance.
Strategic unkept fairway bunkering.
Bountiful short game interest/options.
Brilliant green contours.
Stellar two shot doglegs.
Routing that takes advantage of elevations.
Width from the tee.
Recovery options.
Embraces all skill levels.
Natural beauty.
Low key vibe.


I wish it was my home.


Mike
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Peter Pallotta on April 14, 2022, 11:41:03 AM
I'm very glad the members of the other senior tour enjoyed their visit, Mike. If memory serves Kyle Franz did the work there several years ago, and it must've been great work indeed -- because you didn't once feel the need to refer to the 'quality of the restoration' ! Yes, to me it has always looked the definitive inland course.









Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Cal Seifert on April 14, 2022, 07:57:50 PM
Maybe I was there at the wrong time and got unlucky, but Mid Pines was far from firm and fast when I played last month.  Seems to be built on heavier soil than nearby Pinehurst courses. Regardless, I still had a great day there and agree with you. It is no surprise many golfers leave the Pinehurst / Southern Pines area and have great memories about more than just #2.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Jeff Schley on April 15, 2022, 03:03:09 AM
I think we have a section devoted to this to a certain extent with 147 custodians. As per that criteria and subsequent list NGLA is the #1 US course. No complaints from me.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Ronald Montesano on April 15, 2022, 10:21:42 AM
Karl has since changed his name to Kyle, but the last name remains the same.


I love MidPines, too.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on April 15, 2022, 11:00:13 AM
Quintessential is one of those words that has shades of meaning. It could refer to the typical course, or the ideal or model course. It could even refer to the classic course. Mid Pines certainly is not a typical course. It is undoubtedly a classic course. Is it the ideal course? Probably not. Those are few and far between.

If you are looking for a course as an example of what a topnotch course could be, then it does fit the bill. I would add Hidden Creek to that list. It has a wonderful routing, great and varied par threes, fun short par fours, difficult longer par fours and tempting par fives. The terrain seems flattish but C&C used the terrain brilliantly. Besides that, it is great fun and challenges the good player but allows the weaker or in my case older player to get around. The greens are some their best.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Bill Gayne on April 15, 2022, 05:27:53 PM
The most quintessential course that came to me were the courses at Bethpage State Park and if I had to pick one course it would be the black course because I don't know a lot about the others. If someone else with more Bethpage experience thinks another course would be more quintessential jump in. The US is a big country with a lot of variation but Bethpage Black checks many boxes including GCA pedigree, traditions, public access at reasonable cost, major championships, and for me walking only.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Lou_Duran on April 16, 2022, 11:33:22 AM


Mid Pines:

I wish it was my home.



Way too many tourists, don't you think?


Why not Holston Hills?


For me, on a course I could play most days year-round, Trinity Forest GC would fit the bill for most of the reasons stated in favor of Mid Pines, save natural beauty.


If I had the access, without a question, Cypress Point would be my choice.  What it might lack in the aforementioned areas, but entirely interesting and playable (I even enjoy the 18th hole), it makes up manifold in natural beauty and presentation without being ostentatious. 
 
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mark Pritchett on April 16, 2022, 11:58:53 AM
I’ll go with Aiken GC. 
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Joel Pear on April 16, 2022, 12:07:40 PM
To me, quintessential means typical, and the most typical course to many Americans would be Medinah #3.


Big
Bold
Tree lined
Well manicured
Green


Certainly not the ideal course for many (most) on this site, but could definitely fit the bill for many American golfers.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Jim Sherma on April 16, 2022, 02:34:22 PM
When I think of archetypical US courses I believe it would need to be something that is parkland since those exist almost everywhere other than the desert southwest.


The quintessential one would be one that is great based on architecture and history but really could exist anywhere based on not having anything that in not replicable, e.g. the Monterrey coast or free drawing sandy soil.


This leaves me thinking of Merion. Other than the quarry there is nothing dramatic or that special of the land. It is simply great architecture on a good site at a distance that many players can enjoy. Obviously other very good parkland courses could be cited but I’ll stick with Merion. Rolling Green could substitute for variety and when Merion is punching their greens.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Steve Lapper on April 16, 2022, 02:42:48 PM
Mid Pines:


Firm and fast.
Understated maintenance.
Strategic unkept fairway bunkering.
Bountiful short game interest/options.
Brilliant green contours.
Stellar two shot doglegs.
Routing that takes advantage of elevations.
Width from the tee.
Recovery options.
Embraces all skill levels.
Natural beauty.
Low key vibe.


I wish it was my home.


Mike




Applying each and every criteria you mentioned, I'd nominate Somerset Hills, White Bear Yacht Club, Essex Country Club (MA), Eastward Ho, NGLA, Shinnecock, Friars Head, Cal Club, Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club, etc....
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: archie_struthers on April 16, 2022, 03:48:28 PM
 8)


Quintessential ......I'm going to go Prairie Dunes








p.s.    to Steve Lapper    maybe best under the radar is Essex
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Joe Hancock on April 16, 2022, 04:43:18 PM
Quintessential by region, Midwest nominee:


Lawsonia


Accessible, affordable, approachable, architecturally interesting and relevant
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mike Sweeney on April 16, 2022, 06:43:53 PM

Low key vibe.



I played it with a local member and as a "fast player", I was slow. "The Vibe" reminded me of the glory days at Mountain Lake. It is my preferred location in Pinehurst, and I will be back:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvwLytFXMAAFera?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

That said, I am saddened that Bogey no longer likes public access Lobsters!!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E39w_LIWQAIzVOG?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mike Hendren on April 16, 2022, 07:06:43 PM
Never fear Joe and Mike - Lawsonia and Cape Arundel remain firmly in my favorite top 10.  Both are sublime and then some!


Mike
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Jerry Rossi on April 17, 2022, 12:15:45 AM

this is a great point - I think you may be spot on with a lot of this..including the part about it not being ideal for this site.  I'll just speak for me in that I think it's one of the more over-rated courses in America.  The fact that they're basically blowing it up lends credibility to that POV. 


Either way - good post

To me, quintessential means typical, and the most typical course to many Americans would be Medinah #3.


Big
Bold
Tree lined
Well manicured
Green


Certainly not the ideal course for many (most) on this site, but could definitely fit the bill for many American golfers.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Tim Leahy on April 17, 2022, 12:55:49 AM
Pebble Beach. Every American golfer dreams of playing Pebble. Just like the American dream it is only accessible if you have the cash. 8)
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Brett Meyer on April 17, 2022, 08:54:23 AM
I don't know if Mid Pines is the quintessential US course in the sense that it's the 'most perfect or typical example' of a golf course in the United States. But to me, it's the quintessential course at which I'd like to be a member: a challenging, but not too difficult walk; has a lot of variety off the tee and to the green, requiring you to work the ball both ways; has interesting green complexes. It's challenging, but not really 'hard.' It's also the perfect length from the back tees for me.

I don't think it's a very typical course for the US because the look of the sandhills region is so distinctive. The best tree-lined country club course in the northeast would fit this better. But it's just about the quintessential course in the category 'what I'd want to play every day.'
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: V. Kmetz on April 17, 2022, 12:32:09 PM
AS TW muses, quintessence has many applications... so I have a different approach...


1. It's got to be private course, the "historical" essence of most of America's grandest courses, are private; and the whole enterprise was founded as a affluent game, not a public one.  Though Pebble has a lot going for it, it doesn't have this...


2. It should be executed by an American designer... and it shouldn't have overt templates of European/UK holes, that's a deserved British parenting ethos, not an wholly American essence. In both takes, American essence is likely to be RTJ or Dye course, before a Mac or Raynor or a Ross or Mackenzie. Sawgrass is more American quintessence than NGLA, no?  If not, I'll need your definition of quintessence.


3. Again, in "retention of original history" as essence, it's likely to be found in the regions of NY, Philly, Boston and Chicago; that's where it got started and got traction here...and whatever original essence is present, ought to be established longest there. And probably existing before 1930-35, when American course-building paused; an "essence" already having been built.


4. It'll be on parkland property, probably well-treed hilly parkland property. Though classics like Cypress and Shinnecock were developed in seaside/coastal sites, most American courses do not look or play like those and American course design is the advent and advertisement for the parkland course, isn't it, I don't think many here or abroad think "America" and summon CP and Shinny, nor do these courses broadcast anything particular typical or readily found on an "American" course.


5. It's likely to have in-course water to navigate and other midwifing of the aerial game...I mean, without wishing to forestall debate, aren't those American essences, that proliferated in US design, distinct to the UK home of the game?


6. Many, many great courses in America are widely known for their cost and difficulty and ingenuity to build, many times on ground usually unconsidered as golfing ground in UK venues; so I expect the qwintessential course  to have been the result of a long or arduous, and/or imposing, perfectionist vision type of thing that cost bucks, that is still seen in how the course maintains and presents itself.


OK to take stock, if I keep to this criteria, I see these courses -- also with reputation enough -- to be American Quintessence


Myopia
The CC
Pine Valley
Merion
Medinah 


Oakmont and Winged Foot would make it there if I didn't have a water criteria


As we loosen to later eras and/or other relaxing criteria...


Augusta National
Oakland Hills
Sawgrass
Southern Hills
Shadow Creek.


tri-Final Jeopardy Answer


1. Pine Valley - though it lacks a rich tournament hosting history, and we have to consider non American inputs, it's a big private, established, audacious, monumental site with hazards and singularity.  There's no course like it and sprouts from the richest early corridor of course design.


2. Augusta National - if its critics re: Mackenzie's bastardization are correct, then it consciously stewarded the template for American parkland design.  If those critics are wrong, then Mac was visionary enough to have seen what it would become.


3. Sawgrass - is anything more wholly representative of an original, influential, bright line American design than this?









Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on April 17, 2022, 01:14:17 PM
If quintessential means "perfectly typical or representative of a particular kind of person or thing" then how is firm and fast quintessential for a US golf course?  Most US courses are not firm and fast, at least not compared to their brethren in the UK and Ireland.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: V. Kmetz on April 17, 2022, 01:31:09 PM
If quintessential means "perfectly typical or representative of a particular kind of person or thing" then how is firm and fast quintessential for a US golf course?  Most US courses are not firm and fast, at least not compared to their brethren in the UK and Ireland.


for myself - agree...
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Kalen Braley on April 17, 2022, 02:10:10 PM
I would argue:

If we're going with a current snap shot of American golf, not one from 120 years ago, it would be a public course...and be a Doak 2-3 to boot.

This is in fact the "typical" representative of US golf...


P.S.  The above mentioned courses are terrific i'm sure, but they are certainly outliers...
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: jeffwarne on April 17, 2022, 02:51:17 PM
I would argue:

If we're going with a current snap shot of American golf, not one from 120 years ago, it would be a public course...and be a Doak 2-3 to boot.

This is in fact the "typical" representative of US golf...


P.S.  The above mentioned courses are terrific i'm sure, but they are certainly outliers...


I had to laugh when I saw NGLA mentioned as the quintessential American golf course.
Of course on this board that's the go to for everything.
An extremely private course in a highly affluent region modeled after the great courses of the UK, on a sandy somewhat recently detreed(again) plain.
I'd say Bethpage would be a better choice in the nearby region-a course/complex born of the depression for the everyday man.


Mid Pines seems like a quintessential American course(parlkland yet sandy), though I'm with Mark about AGC.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder though.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Sven Nilsen on April 17, 2022, 02:55:27 PM
Skenandoa GC, Clinton, NY


As quintessential as it gets, it defines the mean of American golf.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mark Mammel on April 17, 2022, 03:03:49 PM
AS TW muses, quintessence has many applications... so I have a different approach...

tri-Final Jeopardy Answer


1. Pine Valley - though it lacks a rich tournament hosting history, and we have to consider non American inputs, it's a big private, established, audacious, monumental site with hazards and singularity.  There's no course like it and sprouts from the richest early corridor of course design.


2. Augusta National - if its critics re: Mackenzie's bastardization are correct, then it consciously stewarded the template for American parkland design.  If those critics are wrong, then Mac was visionary enough to have seen what it would become.


3. Sawgrass - is anything more wholly representative of an original, influential, bright line American design than this?
Much as I enjoy the posts from quintessential GCAer V. Klemz, I can't see either Pine Valley or Augusta National as quintesential American courses. First, while "private" is historically accurate, I believe a more inclusive experience fits better. For PV and Augusta, unless "quintessential" also means "completely unavailable to virtually everyone and knowable only via photos and writings of the fortunate", they violate what I see as the American ethos here. For Augusta, it epitomizes an unobtainable (and I would say undesirable) and elusive perfection that exists only via massive and regular cash transfusions. As for Sawgrass, I think there is a better alternative- Pebble Beach. It has historic, architectural and championship chops, not to mention incredible beauty. The uniqueness of the coast shouldn't rule it out, just as the Grand Canyon is also quintessentially American in spite of, or perhaps because of it unique beauty and grandeur.

(https://i.ibb.co/Vgs0VYh/IMG-0039.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6rm0FM)
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Drew Harvie on April 17, 2022, 04:11:13 PM
Pebble is obviously the quintessential US golf course.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Mike Hendren on April 19, 2022, 10:18:08 AM
In my mind the quintessential course must take into account the average handicap of men (14) and women (27.7) golfers as well as those poorer players who likely don’t maintain a handicap.
 
Perhaps one should also be able  to age in place. Plenty of senior women at Mid Pines.


Mike
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Ronald Montesano on April 25, 2022, 07:12:53 PM
Quintessence: the most perfect or typical example of a quality or class.

We've seen since 2014 that the USA is neither a quality nor a class, and that's just speaking politically. Is there a quintessential Scottish course? Irish course? I think that citizens of those places would debate as we do. Onward~

Given that we have our aristocrats and our alley cats, I see no other way to determine this outcome, than by admitting that we are all about classes.

Some would say that Pebble Beach and Pasatiempo are public-access; others would add Pinehurst #2 and Kiawah Island. By the presence of cash registers and iPads, they are indeed public access, but are they accessible to a public that cannot afford them?

VKmetz (does the V stand for Volcanic?) is spot on with his assertion that a great bit of USA golf is private, off limits to the hoi and the paloi. And yet, through spectating, we can access a lot of these private clubs. Through Instagram and YouTube, we can fly over the grounds and see the tee decks, fairest of ways, and putting greens.

A few random thoughts...
And I'd call MidPines quintessential. I love MidPines.
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Ira Fishman on April 27, 2022, 09:32:09 AM
Of the 70 courses on the 147 (now 149) Custodians that are in the US, I count 11 that are open to the public. (Virtually all of those are high end resorts.) I am not sure whether 11 is a high percentage or not in the context of the ideal US course that warrants imitation. Interestingly, Ran dropped Mid Pines off the list; Southern Pines is now on it.


Ira
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Bruce Katona on April 27, 2022, 10:39:46 AM
Quintessential should mean access by the public in general.  While Pebble Beach does qualify, the price point is somewhat limiting. I'm going to nominate four courses that I feel meet the criteria and why:


1. Twisted Dune - kudos to Archie Struthers for building a place that began as a borrow pit and was flat as a pancake.  Fairways are nice and wide for the average player, the forward tees allow the senior/women player to get around well; you can walk (I always do) and the price point to play is more than fair.


2. Wyncote - Chester County, PA - Fun public access layout that can be walked, great conditioning and price point is adjusted for day/time for tee times.


3. Paramus Golf Couse, Paramus, NJ - This really, truly municipal tract is sandwiched between Bergen Community College and Ridgewood Country Club. Flat, very well drained site that makes walking a breeze.  This is a 3:15 round walking since green to tee separations are minimal.


4. Galloping Hill - Kenilworth, NJ - County owned course that was wonderfully re-done a few years ago. Again a good walk, though a bit hillier than the other 3 above.


JMHO
BK
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Kalen Braley on April 27, 2022, 10:51:03 AM
Ron's definition is both spot on, and adds to the confusion.

Quintessential only means a subject is a perfect example of a 'type of something'.  It doesn't necessarily convey that the something is good just because its quintessential. For example McDonalds is the perfect represntative fast food, but it don't mean I'm eating there.

This thread would have been a lot more effective...and interesting... had it stated "Perhaps the ideal US golf course is..."
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Rich Thomas on July 08, 2022, 03:52:10 PM
While I  have yet to play it, (I will in less than 2 weeks) what about Goat Hill Park? A muni that has come back from the brink of extinction, is welcoming to all, and has a fun, relaxed atmosphere?
Title: Re: Perhaps the quintessential US golf course is…
Post by: Craig Sweet on July 08, 2022, 04:28:17 PM
The quintessential US golf course is a mom and pop nine holer, with limited irrigation and maintenance, with cold beer and hot dogs, a low greens fee and a cheap membership fee.... and owners that want nothing more than to grow the game.


I bet 90% of the golfers today grew up on a course like that.