Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Michael Chadwick on February 28, 2022, 10:31:30 PM
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Want to share an upcoming September itinerary for feedback. As of now all tee times are confirmed, but there's always wiggle room.
Some context:
It's a multi-generational family trip, although primary players are myself (33) and my brother (30). Occasionally my stepfather and mother will play with us. Also attending are our non-playing wives, and two children under 3 yrs, hence more 18 hole days as opposed to 36.
Staying in two rentals throughout trip. One in Gullane, one in St. Andrews.
Glaring Omissions:
TOC - only recently was I informed of my beginner's error organizing a trip during the R&A Autumn Meeting. No ballot, no singles queue will be available over our dates. After reflection and gnashing of teeth, not going to move dates. It's the first trip, not the last.
Muirfield- Would rather have the proper 36 and lunch day in accompaniment of a member some point in the future.
SAT 9/10: Arrive EDI, check in at Gullane rental
SUN 9/11: Gullane #3; North Berwick
MON 9/12: North Berwick; Gullane #1
TUE 9/13: Kilspindie; check in to St. Andrews rental
WED 9/14: Rest day OR: Eden / New / Crail
THU 9/15: Carnoustie
FRI 9/16: Cruden Bay; Royal Aberdeen
SAT 9/17: Elie
SUN 9/18: Lundin; walk TOC routing
MON 9/19: Depart EDI
As you can see I'm fading on modern builds, which I think I'm okay with for an introductory trip to Scotland.
Given the amount of golf bags, people, car seats--anyone have experience renting larger vehicles/vans in Edinburgh? Or we might just get 3 separate cars for each family.
Appreciate any thoughts!
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Michael - My first thought is make arrangements for one of those Mercedes Vans and a driver. You'll have an enjoyable trip with everyone in one vehicle as PASSINGERS rather than driving yourself. I've been there 4 times with 7 other people and not having to worry about getting from one place to another is well worth it. No navigating or distractions from sightseeing. Driving in Scotland is not like driving in LA.
For what it's worth.
Doug
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Scratch Cruden Bay And Aberdeen. You’re wasting time driving. Plenty of amazing golf near where you’re staying.
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I reluctantly agree that Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen, while tremendous and really memorable, are a hike from your base. I would add Panmure, near Carnoustie and Hogan's practice club before his only Open appearance (and with perhaps the best logo in Scotland). And play the New course. It's real St Andrews and a treat. By the way, you don't need a member to play Muirfield (with the 2 rounds and the greatest lunch) but for more than one 4 ball it would be very tough. As a member of Royal Dornoch for 30 years, I'd suggest you plan the next one around that lovely little town. Have a great time.
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I agree that Cruden Bay/Aberdeen is too far to go for a day trip. It's probably 2.5 hours each way.
Scrap it and play something around St Andrews (or Panmure) or, better still, do some non-golf sight-seeing. There are so many interesting places to see!
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For sure, drop Cruden and Aberdeen. Stick local in Fife for 18 and enjoy the town. Be sure to get the family to Himalayas.
I assume there is a good reason for splitting up North Berwick and Gullane as you have.
Ciao
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Not to pile on, but my initial reaction was 'Cruden is a long way from St Andrews, much too far for a 36 hole day'.
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Another one to say you’ll have much more fun playing Eden or New or Crail or Leven on the Friday, perhaps with Kingsbarns or Dumbarnie if you want the big brawny course. You’ll have time to enjoy dinner with the family then.
5.5 hrs driving + 36 holes in a day would exhaust me for the rest of the trip!
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Michael,
It's a family trip and as you say it's a first trip and not a last trip. For that reason I would totally forget the 36 hole days with any driving. In East Lothian play Gullane 1, North Berwick, and consider Dunbar in place of a second North Berwick round. In Fife play New, Elie, Carnoustie, Eden or Jubilee, and Crail.
Bill
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My suggestion FWIW is that you are trying to play too much golf, particularly on a family trip. Gullane and North Berwick are both lovely towns for a walk round of an afternoon and then there are nearby beaches that link in with the town and golf courses; castles; stately homes; other family pursuits. Also good to keep yourself fresh for the next days golf.
Likewise in Fife, loads to do other than golf and you would kick yourself if you didn't make time to see the sights. Also agree with Sean, if you are going to do 36 holes a day, it makes sense to do them at the same club/course.
Re transport, if there are non-golfers in the party and you are looking to get a driver with the vehicle, then you should advise the company up front if the intention is for the non-golfers to get shuttled about elsewhere while the golfers are at play. Otherwise they won't factor that into the price and that could cause issues. Alternatively the non-golfers could use public transport/taxi although note that there is no train station in Gullane.
Niall
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Well if these are your dreams - follow through.
The walk along the beach from Gullane to North Berwick (when tide is low) is great - but not suitable for buggies or the faint hearted if carrying kids. Take the Bus back.
I know a guy who lives in Gullane who regularly plays 36 at Cruden Bay. But he's BONKERS. However it is the only 'mad' day on your itinerary and St Andrews to Cruden is 'only' 2 hours. If you really want to do it, why not? You are young (I presume - at least by the standards of this group) and will be more acclimatised to the time difference by then. It will also give you an insight into further trips - do you really want to prioritise Golf above all else? Try it and you will know for future trips.
Enjoy
PS If you are asking the locals or looking to communicate effectively then switch the order of your dates. I had to look twice to realise you are are arriving on the 10th of September. i.e. 10/09/2022.
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I would stick with your itinerary. First, it's a pain changing plans.
Most importantly, it will be the closest you've ever been geographically to RA and CB. So what if you have to drive a little further?
Besides, nobody has ever gone to Scotland and come back feeling bad having played great courses and those 2 are really good. Have a great trip and enjoy links golf. There is nothing like it.
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It's always tough to work in everything you want to see.
Assume you have North Berwick 18 on two separate days because of the difficulty of getting 36 holes scheduled around other bookings and member times? North Berwick is terrific and well worth two visits, but the suggestion of Dunbar is a good one as well.
If you want to play Muirfield with a member and play a four ball in the morning, you'll still need to play on visitor days. To be sure the experience is better (and way cheaper) with a member, but that's also likely the case everywhere you go. Doesn't look like a visit there fits your schedule anyway.
I have not been to either Cruden Bay or Royal Aberdeen, but if your families can spare you for the day and you are especially keen to see the courses, why not?
After 18 at Elie, I expect you will want to go back around, so be prepared for the impulse to do so.
IMO, Leven is more memorable than Lundin.
Biggest error in your scheduling - you're not spending any time in Edinburgh?!
As long as you're not drinking, there's no problem driving in the areas that you're visiting. Parking, well that could be a different story.
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Not to be a contrarian, but I would absolutely keep Cruden Bay in your plans. It's really isn't that far a drive. I did a fairly similar trip three years ago, although I flew into Heathrow so I played Alwoodley on my way up to Edinburgh. And on a Friday when I played 18 in the morning and was done before noon, and knowing it stays light forever, I figured what the hell and drove up to Dornoch just to check it out. No expectations. And the parking lot was practically empty, so I brought my clubs with me to the clubhouse, they told me the course was wide open, and I played 18 in under three hours on a beautiful summer day without waiting on a single shot. It was without a doubt my best experience on any course ever. So don't be afraid of the long drives that maybe don't rationally fit in your itinerary. They are almost always worth it.
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You have enough suggestions/feedback/criticism ..... I'll only add make sure you go back to do the rest. IMO you need at least 3 weeks to canvas the top venues of Scotland and traveling around. So probably 3 trips, it will just keep you scheduling them out and looking forward to the future.
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I have played and would recommend Kilspindie, Dunbar, Elie, and Leven.
Also played Gullane#3.
I forgot to say Musselburgh Old for a classic guy like you.
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Of my numerous trips to Scotland I have two regrets:
Did not play Musselburgh with hickories.
Did not get over to the Ladies Putting Green and play there.
Do both if you can work it in.
Doug
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Of my numerous trips to Scotland I have two regrets:
Did not play Musselburgh with hickories.
Did not get over to the Ladies Putting Green and play there.
Do both if you can work it in.
Doug
Hickories or no, Musselburgh is a must. Just ask Vaughn Halyard. Where are you Vaughn?
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It's always tough to work in everything you want to see.
I have thought about this a lot. So true, especially in Scotland with so many different courses we all want to play. Just not enough time.
So I don't have to compromise on where and when to play when I finally get over there, I have decided to spend 3-4 months in England, Scotland and Ireland living out of AirBnB's and just golfing all over. I retire early in a few years and this is my plan. The wife can join me or not. It will end up being cheaper as I will only have to pay for plane fare once and I can get a ton of those Sean Arbuckle, quirky 9 holers in as well.
I would say, if your family doesn't mind, try and and slip in as much golf as you can while you are there. Sounds like a fun trip.
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Michael - awesome trip. You'll have a blast and while all the above are great suggestions, no one knows how you want to spend your time better than you.
We seem to have these threads a lot, so if people are genuinely looking for a lean hopefully this helps.
People have less and less time to go away, so for inbound travellers who can only get a 5/6 day pass these might help. For my money, the 4 stock "in and out" trips to Scotland without getting all artsy about it are:
(all days of week should match up with the visitor/member only days)
East Lothian-
Monday: Land into Edinburgh and play Dunbar, stay in North Berwick the rest of the week
Tuesday: 36 - Gullane No.1 and 2
Weds: Kilspindie in the AM, Musselburgh Old in the PM. Nice easy day after the 36 before, and the 36 to come
Thurs: 36 at Muirfield. 4-ball, J&T lunch, PM foursomes a must
Fri: 18 or 36 at North Berwick if you can get both rounds booked in
Sat: Fly home
Throw in TRC, Luffness New, Longniddry, Gullane No.3 for extra rounds. Take out any of the listed to get the train into Edinburgh from NB for an afternoon. Plenty of pubs and restaurants in NB, as well as multiple accommodation options. Outside of the 40 min airport drive, you'll drive 5-20 minutes in any one leg that week.
St Andrews -
Monday: Land into Edinburgh, play Crail Balcomie, stay in St Andrews all week
Tues: New and Eden
Weds: Jubilee and Himalayas
Thurs: Ballot for Old if you don't have guaranteed tee time. More chance on Thursdays and Saturdays
Fri: 40 minute road trip to Carnoustie and maybe Panmure while you're at it
Sat: Kingsbarns or Elie to finish. Two very different experiences but they won't beat you up and are perfect final day crowd pleasers
Sun: Home
If you can find space for Lundin, Leven, Scotscraig, Dumbarnie etc then great. However, you're well set if doing the above. Staying in St Andrews is well documented, as are F&B options.
Aberdeen and Highlands -
*some would argue two trips but it's one trip if you're on the 4-8 year plan to see all of Scotland.
**Definitely the most driving of the 4 trips
Mon: Fly into Aberdeen, play Cruden Bay, stay in Aberdeen for 2 nights
Tues: Trump in AM, Royal Aberdeen in PM
Weds: Nairn on the way to stay in Dornoch for 3 nights
Thurs: Dornoch x 36 if you can
Fri: Brora - by all means play Golspie in the PM. The latter won't make or break your trip but if you're up there, then why not?
Sat: Castle Stuart and fly out that afternoon if timings work, or spend last night in Inverness and fly Sunday.
You hit all the big names and can stretch it a day by playing adding Fraserburgh (PLEASE DO!) and Cullen or Covesea on the way up, or the likes of Fortrose/Tain/Skibo if you really want. Enough spots up there to keep you fed and watered.
Ayrshire:
Monday: Fly into Glasgow and play Glasgow Gailes, stay in Troon
Tuesday: Royal Troon Champs AM, Portland PM
Weds: Prestwick Experience - tee off early then jacket and tie lunch (Weds and Fridays)
Thurs: Turnberry Ailsa and King Robert the Bruce to make the 40 minute drive down worthwhile.
Friday: Western Gailes
Sat: Fly home
Another round at Prestwick on the Weds, or Barassie and Dundonald can be thrown in there too for the guys on the 36 a day diet. Outside of the Turnberry day and the airport transfers, max drive around 10 minutes all week. If at all possible get over to Machrihanish but I'll leave those logistics to readers.
There is no fixed way to do any of those but hopefully they provide good templates for people who can't do it all in one go, and would rather not move around too much when they are here. The Aberdeen and Highlands trip being somewhat of an exception re driving.
So, if you can get away for a week every 2 years, you'll be done in 8. Insert Ireland and/or England in the fallow years....
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If you are keen to see Aberdeen and Cruden Bay, I suggest you go for it. One of my favorite days in Scotland was driving from our hotel in St. Andrews to Turnberry, playing 36 and driving back. The drive was as memorable as the golf.
Dunbar is also well worth a visit if it fits somewhere.
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Both of my trips to Scotland were two of the best weeks of my life and were also during the September R&A meetings with the Old Course was off the table. Don't feel bad. You'll still have an amazing time.
I also did an itinerary very similar to yours, and would say to definitely keep CB and RA in play. We rented a house in St. Andrews and then drove up to play those two and stayed at a modest hotel in CB that night, even though we still had the rental back in St. Andrews. Didn't add any significant cost, and then we played Carnoustie on the way back down.
Have a blast!
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I think what gets lost in the shuffle of excitement is that you can’t play them all on one trip. There will be another trip. Also, the only regret I have from my first time there was playing a course once. This is the worst mistake that I regret to this day. When you have a course selected, play it twice or 3 times if it really gets to you. This method also cuts down on wasteful driving. Lots of driving during a golf trip to Scotland is wasteful imo.
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Michael - sounds like a great trip; congrats and hope you enjoy it.
Regarding your Wednesday - allow me to make a brief sales pitch for Crail Balcomie. It's high on quirk and full of exhilarating and memorable moments. After a breathtaking opening tee shot a few paces from the clubhouse, you'll play along two different coastlines (don't miss the cave as you walk from #14 to #15), hit two heroic tee shots over the sea on the front 9, and play over and around a few charming "sense of place" objects/landmarks.
Specific to the places you're debating for that day - I haven't played the Eden, but compared to Balcomie the holes on the New Course all blend together in my memory. Don't get me wrong it's "real deal" links golf, but other than one great par-3 at the back of the routing, I never think about any of the holes on the New.
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My first thought was that, of all the proposed itineraries that get posted here, this made the most sense I can recall. Yes, CB/RA is a bit of a schlepp, and there's enough good golf in Fife to give them a miss. But they're worth the drive in my book and whether you want to make the trip will be down to your tolerance of driving.
Enjoy!
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It feels a little unseemly to be bumping my own thread, but I did conclude the trip described in the OP. The only change that happened from the original itinerary was swapping out Kilspindie for an earlier tee time at Gullane #2, so as to be able to transfer to StA earlier on that particular day. The first full day in StA remained a rest/family day.
I have to say that, though I understood people's rationales for suggesting that a day of Cruden Bay and Royal Aberdeen was much too long from St. Andrews, I'm glad to have stuck to my guns on that one. It was difficult enough going to Scotland and not playing any of TOC, Muirfield, or Dornoch; apart from North Berwick, Cruden Bay was the other course I had to see to justify flying all the way out there. My brother and I hopped in the car around 6:30 am, teed off at Cruden Bay 9am, had an unhurried lunch at CB, then drove the 30 mins to Royal Aberdeen and started around 2:30. We had a quick dinner and pint in the club bar and were back to our St.A rental before 9 pm. The entire day was without question one of my top golf experiences to date, an impeccable 36 hole combo, even if it was in sustained winds over 25 mph.
I'm still digesting the courses, and I'm posting write ups on my Instagram. Unsure still of what's worth discussing on the DG. Maybe North Berwick at some point, because though I loved it, I think current consensus (GOLF Mag's 35th course in world) is a bit overrated. Or perhaps Royal Aberdeen, which doesn't even appear on GOLF's list, and I think it can hold its own in a hole to hole match with Carnoustie. People rave about its outward nine, but I didn't find the inward 9 much of a downshift at all. A big part of me wants to actually give it the highest Doak Score out of any course I saw last week.
Though I'm glad I opted against any modern designs for an introductory trip to Scottish links, and I'm genuinely glad I saw each course I did, I will admit that at the end of the trip it felt like I probably played 2 rounds too many on courses that may be better suited for warm-ups or more extended stays. My only regret is not putting in enough effort to see Muirfield. With 6 days of golf on a trip from Los Angeles, connecting through godawful Heathrow T5, I began to (facetiously) wonder if life's too short to be playing less than Doak 7's! ;)
Here are a few off the cuff superlative awards to give you a flavor of my thoughts. TOC excluded from consideration since I walked it on a Sunday and didn't play:
Best par 3s: Cruden Bay, Gullane #1 (tie)
Best par 4s: North Berwick
Best par 5s: Carnoustie
Best Green Complexes: Royal Aberdeen
Best Green Surfaces: Carnoustie
Best Clubhouse/Locker: Royal Aberdeen
Most Underrated: Gullane #2
Most Overrated: North Berwick
Worst Overall: Gullane #3
Best Everyday Play: Elie
Most Fun: Cruden Bay
Best Overall: Royal Aberdeen
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Michael
Glad you enjoyed the trip. What was it about Gullane 3 you didn't like ?
Niall
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Interesting thoughts. I’ve long said that Royal Aberdeen is way underrated and from the golfing challenge aspect can embarrass many a players game with ease.
Atb