I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
\I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China. It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
\I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China. It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
Haven't yet heard of the Chinese deploying a team of chainsaw artists abroad to dismember a renown journalist for his dissident opinions, but perhaps I'm early?
This is little more than sheer $$$ grab by a handful of tour pros, most of whom are past their prime or just principle-lite. I'm quite sure they've got plans to pair themselves with US venues of similar philosophy. A match made in heaven. Have at it.
Steve,
Perhaps they could have little chainsaws as tee markers?
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China. It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether it’s in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individual’s right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who aren’t giving up anything to take their stand.Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I have turned down repeated inquiries about projects in Saudi Arabia, because my family wouldn’t be comfortable with me working there, and I wouldn’t be comfortable sending my associates there. Sure, the $ is tempting, and it would be easy to rationalize that Saudi people deserve good golf courses, too, and find someone who was happy to do most of the on site work on my behalf. But if I’m not willing to go myself, I don’t think it’s ethical to do a workaround.
But, if I were comfortable doing so, who are you guys to police my choices? What difference does it make whether I work for Saudi money or not, when it is all legitimized by the US government and financed by US banks?
If you want to protest the Saudi regime, tell the President not to kiss their ring, and that you’re willing to pay more for gasoline to stop propping them up. And take your $$ out of the banks who do business with them. Quit hiding behind a silly golf protest that won’t change anything about what’s going on over there, so that you don’t have to make any tough decisions that affect your own life.
Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I cop 100% to putting my own economic interests front and center; I buy Chinese goods, and I assume my bank does business with the Saudis.
I see a very clear difference between the pros that simply say that they are going to take once-in-a-lifetime money, and guys like Mickelson and Hoffman who are concocting elaborate and over-the-top rationalizations for taking the money.
Where has Phil's outrage over the PGA Tour owning media rights been all these years? He's 51, and has NEVER been shy about sharing his opinions. He calls this a "once in a lifetime chance to remake the PGA Tour"; where's that been until now? Hoffman said last week that he doesn't blame guys for leaving because he hit his ball in the water and then had a weird piece of bad luck afterwards. Apparently he believes that the Saudi tour will NOT play by the Rules of Golf, or that he won't have to, or won't have bad luck there? Gimme a break...
If you want (or need!) the money, then take it. But have the onions to say so, instead of peeing on my leg and expecting me to believe you when you say it's raining. That, in effect, is what Phil is doing, and that's MUCH more of a problem for me than the Saudis vs the Chinese, or what my bank is or isn't doing, or any of the rest of this.
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether it’s in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individual’s right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who aren’t giving up anything to take their stand.
Tom, very seldom do I comment on statements that are not about golf on this forum. Folks are entitled to speak to issues whether or not they have skin in the game. When folks refrain from commenting, evil has a better chance of succeeding. I agree that it is better to be actively involved and I commend you for refraining to work for the Saudis. You do not know what I do or have done in the international scene. I do grow weary of your holier than thou attitude.
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfersThe NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfersThe NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
Useful info for those genuinely interested.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ (https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/)
Clearly all the super rich people have more money than they need, and almost all of them crave more. That’s fine; they’re allowed. But please, please, don’t complain your taxes are too high.
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfersThe NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
Right.
According to reports I’ve read, the percentage of money going to the players is pretty close for the NBA, NFL and PGA Tour.
A.G.,
Regarding the Rules, Hoffman might like to know the Slugger White is the head rules official for the Saudi Tour and I am pretty sure he won’t be writing any new rules of play for them.
Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers
Mike: Do I like taxes? I like getting what I receive in return for paying them. Living in America.
You might ask if I like paying for cars. I suppose I’d prefer not to, but cars cost money.
It seems to me Phil has raised some legitimate concerns, namely the large amount of cash that is sitting in the PGA's bankThat's PGA Tour, not PGA, and the cash reserves are both not nearly as big as Phil thinks they are, nor are they as big now since they helped fund the PGA Tour through the pandemic. That's what those reserves can be used to do - survive stuff like the pandemic while still putting on tournaments.
Just to continue playing devil's advocate but if Phil shames the PGA into doing somethingPlease stop saying PGA. That's an almost entirely different organization from the PGA Tour.
Tim
Just to continue playing devil's advocate but if Phil shames the PGA into doing something with the large wedge of cash sitting in the bank, and they end up giving a large chunk of it to charity, who do you think will get some of the credit for that ?
Niall
As John alluded to, many of the worlds problems lies not in the have nots wanting more, but in convincing those who have more than they can possibly spend in 100 lifetimes that they have enough.
This has been happening for years in pro sports. Why is anyone surprised?This one probably had a good result for Canada as it brought teams in Edmonton, Winnipeg (came, went and now back) and
It's just golf's turn now:
1. Bobby Hull gets lured to play for the Winnepeg Jets of the upstart "WHL" in 1972.
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.
Useful info for those genuinely interested.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ (https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/)
John,
If you're wishing the world were simply a better place, fine. But if you're insinuating Phil's actions through this should somehow be obscured, I don't think you've paid attention to them.
He proactively sought to undermine the PGA Tour with a regime that is exactly as he described to Shipnuk. His various rumored transgressions through the years have been largely kept under wraps, this one couldn't possibly be...
Seems like he is correcting it too, so I have no interest in burying him.It does?
Wonder why it took him a week or so to reflect and apologize?
Wonder why it took him a week or so to reflect and apologize?
Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.
Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.
Anyone thing Tom Watson has a smile on his face.
John,
If you're wishing the world were simply a better place, fine. But if you're insinuating Phil's actions through this should somehow be obscured, I don't think you've paid attention to them.
He proactively sought to undermine the PGA Tour with a regime that is exactly as he described to Shipnuck. His various rumored transgressions through the years have been largely kept under wraps, this one couldn't possibly be...
Mostly I'm mad at myself for taking the bait and offering my opinion at all. I have no interest in obscuring this or knowing this. After that, I wrote more explanations for about twenty minutes and then deleted them.
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.
Wow. I feel like this is so harsh. Welcome to punitive world.
In retrospect, I was kind of irritated this thread ever got started. Mickelson shoots his mouth off a bit, and somebody sees a story. The irresistible story gets shared on GCA, and some of us (including myself) are compelled to comment. As hard as I try to say something sensible, I always feel a bit stupid afterwards. The comments are polite, but it is impossible not to inject opinions about relevant politics and economics. A few people get irritated by the comments, but this time it didn't escalate further.
I hate being yanked around by the tabloid nature of modern journalism. The only reason I care whether KPMG dropped Phil Mickelson as a client is that I regret the original story was ever reported. Can't we have more nice stories, and fewer efforts to exploit human shortcomings? This is quite a price to pay for being a little cavalier and imprecise with his words. It's sad that this hit piece strategy works so well. I'm not biting next time.
Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.
He should be shown the door by the PGA. He needs some time away. Make it lifetime. Anyone think Tom Watson has a smile on his face. I’m amazed any of the Americans go there to play. Why is no one mentioning 911? They funded the terrorists.
While most of the golf world seems offended, I imagine Patrick Reed is overjoyed at these developments.
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....
The least Greg Norman could do is send the Mickelson family a Christmas card…no doubt featuring a photo of a partially clothed Shark walking his dog on the beach.
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....
The least Greg Norman could do is send the Mickelson family a Christmas card…no doubt featuring a photo of a partially clothed Shark walking his dog on the beach.
You always bring it back to the Dick.
More apt, which companies are on the phone to Phil's agent seeking space on his hat and shirt on the day he returns?
8) in regard to the wise stewards at the PGA, let us not forget the $40,000,000 PIP program in 2021 and Phil's twitter...
I’d like to thank all the crazies (and real supporters too) for………………… Helping me win the PiP!! To get the 2nd half of the money I have to add an event I haven’t played in awhile. See you in Kapalua P.S. I’ll try and find another hot controversial topic soon(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f44d.svg)
9:44 AM · Dec 29, 2021 (https://twitter.com/PhilMickelson/status/1476217635771670544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1476217635771670544%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-36557865202096403911.ampproject.net%2F2202042210001%2Fframe.html)
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.
Steve, please explain how the First Amendment applies in this situation. Thanks.
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.
Steve, please explain how the First Amendment applies in this situation. Thanks.
Phil certainly had his First Amendment right to say what he felt, but his sponsors also retained their rights to do business with him...or not...via their mutually agreed upon contract.
8) So the take-away question is, will Alan Shipnuck's book on Phil be a hit or miss or foul ball. After all, he's now wondering why companies are abandoning PM ( https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/im-surprised-all-these-companies-are-fleeing-phil-shipnuck (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/im-surprised-all-these-companies-are-fleeing-phil-shipnuck)) .
The timing of his release of these "excerpts" certainly was calculated... :o seems AS may be amongst the scary ones going forward to be dealt with.
I’ll read it
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person. It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel. It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it. i.e. it changes their life.
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person. It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel. It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it. i.e. it changes their life.
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.Are you also against all news articles that are unauthorized? Because this isn't all that different. More below.
It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.Alan is a reporter, and here's where things are things are the same as the news stuff above: they still have to get sources. They still have to verify things, or report who said what. If Billy Walters is quoted as saying "Phil did this" and Phil didn't do that, his issue isn't with Alan, it's with Billy. And Alan likely also double- or triple-sourced that, even though the one hardest hitting quote might come from Billy. (Or whatever.)
It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it. i.e. it changes their life.Phil's life is already "changed" because he's a public figure. He's not exactly shied away from publicity.
I wonder what the preamble was to Phil's phone call ? He clearly didn't just randomly pick a journalist to pick up a phone to to have a chat. The journalist had previously made approaches to Phil regarding the bio he was writing and I wonder what promises he might have made about quoting him ? Regardless of that, what is the etiquette for journalists in reporting private conversations ?Here are the pertinent excerpts from Shipnuck's comments after Mickelson made the claim that the conversation was off the record.
Niall
I believe the etiquette is: unless otherwise specifically stated, everything is on the record. Whether the subject appreciates this is another question. I don’t think it is common practice for the journalist to read the subject his rights.
What will leak now to keep interest up? Will MJ be exposed? Cuckle doodle do, we have a best seller.
That was what I was basically getting at. So the onus is on Phil Mickelson to look after himself rather than the journalist having any professional duty of care as they might in other professions. Not sure if that is the appropriate phrase but hopefully you know what I mean.His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me. What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments? Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets. That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
That was what I was basically getting at. So the onus is on Phil Mickelson to look after himself rather than the journalist having any professional duty of care as they might in other professions. Not sure if that is the appropriate phrase but hopefully you know what I mean.His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me. What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments? Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets. That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
Wayne, I take your point, and I’m always disturbed by what seem to be situational ethics. But I think we overcomplicate this if we look at what the various sponsors have done as anything other than simple business decisions. Really, this is not very much about the Saudis at all.
To me, there seems to me to be a clear difference for companies who want an ongoing sponsorship presence on the PGA Tour between guys that have simply gone there to play vs a guy who is admittedly involved in organizing a tour in competition with the PGA Tour. One way or the other, Mickelson will be leaving the scene on the PGA Tour, whether it’s because he’s 51, or because the Tour boots him. His former sponsors are just getting out in front of that; it’s a business decision.
Niall, where have Phil's criticisms of the Tour over media rights and the rest been all these years? Have you ever heard him even mention this before, ever? Or anybody else mention it, for that matter? Not only none of the current stars, but not Arnie, not Jack, and not Tiger, none of whom ever seemed averse to making money, and each of whom had far more to gain from "owning" their own media rights than Phil would. Did you ever hear ANYBODY make these complaints about the Tour owning media rights?I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me. What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments? Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets. That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
Wayne, I take your point, and I’m always disturbed by what seem to be situational ethics. But I think we overcomplicate this if we look at what the various sponsors have done as anything other than simple business decisions. Really, this is not very much about the Saudis at all.
To me, there seems to me to be a clear difference for companies who want an ongoing sponsorship presence on the PGA Tour between guys that have simply gone there to play vs a guy who is admittedly involved in organizing a tour in competition with the PGA Tour. One way or the other, Mickelson will be leaving the scene on the PGA Tour, whether it’s because he’s 51, or because the Tour boots him. His former sponsors are just getting out in front of that; it’s a business decision.
It is undoubtedly a business decision by the sponsors but no doubt one where they are happy to look as though they are taking the moral high-ground. If it really was to do with being associated with the Saudis then they would have stopped their sponsorship deals when he and others played in Saudi as Wayne says.
What is surprising to me, and perhaps I'm interpreting the phone conversation wrongly, is that everyone is criticising Phil for looking to set up a rival tour when from my reading of the situation he is actually looking to use the possibility of a rival tour to improve his position with the existing tour. It seems clear to me he is playing one off against the other with the intention of staying on the existing tour having improved the terms of his working arrangement. Basically he's using the Saudi's as leverage. That seems a pretty standard way of going about negotiating a business transaction.
In my view he and the other players are more morally wrong actually playing in Saudi than he is trying to use them as leverage in his negotiations with the tour. Bear in mind also that if successful he would have improved the lot of other players and not just him. I can't help but think that the negative reaction from other players towards Phil is more about an accumulation of things rather than this one situation.
Niall
In my experience most professions these days have tightened up on ethics and wondered whether journalism had any guidelines but then not sure if it is regulated they way other professionals are.Nothing Alan did here was "unethical." Implying such is a bad look.
I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any such rules/regulations/guidelines but if there were I wonder what a duty of care to the reader/listener might comprise?To tell the truth. To be honest. He says it himself: he had an obligation to the reader.
What is surprising to me, and perhaps I'm interpreting the phone conversation wrongly, is that everyone is criticising Phil for looking to set up a rival tour when from my reading of the situation he is actually looking to use the possibility of a rival tour to improve his position with the existing tour. It seems clear to me he is playing one off against the other with the intention of staying on the existing tour having improved the terms of his working arrangement. Basically he's using the Saudi's as leverage. That seems a pretty standard way of going about negotiating a business transaction.He went well above and beyond that, Niall.
As I think Lou said Phil is basically an independent operator who is trying to do the best for himself. My interpretation of his comments are that his preferred outcome was to get his wishes with the existing tour and for the Saudi tour to fail but who's to say that if the existing tour didn't back down and that the Saudi's got their tour up and running that he might have ended up playing there (along with any number of other players hanging onto his coat-tails)
“I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
Phil isn't who many thought he was:What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.
https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)
"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
Phil isn't who many thought he was:What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.
https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)
"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.
Phil isn't who many thought he was:What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.
https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)
"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me. What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments? Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets. That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
In my experience most professions these days have tightened up on ethics and wondered whether journalism had any guidelines but then not sure if it is regulated they way other professionals are.Nothing Alan did here was "unethical." Implying such is a bad look.I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any such rules/regulations/guidelines but if there were I wonder what a duty of care to the reader/listener might comprise?To tell the truth. To be honest. He says it himself: he had an obligation to the reader.
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'?Or maybe… because it's the truth?
That's not really true. Look at Twitter. Phil still has plenty of fans and supporters.
and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud.
I read it as protecting others who aren't the public figure Phil is. If it was just going to be about and affect Phil, I think it'd have made it into the book.
Before he said that his duty was only to the truth and that he had no allegiance to Phil. But now he's saying that he's protecting Phil and burying information that would be damaging.
From those comments you could argue he maybe doesn't quite live up to the lofty ideals that you espouse.
BTW you didn't answer my question on whether your "duty of care" reference was your own ideal of what a duty of care would be or whether it was an agreed and recognised standard in the world of journalism. I'd be interested to know.
Totally agree, Eric. But I think Shipnuck would have been better off not saying anything about what isn’t in the book. Sort of trying to have it both ways. I think he probably lost his temper a bit.
Phil isn't who many thought he was:What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.
https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)
"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.
Totally agree, Eric. But I think Shipnuck would have been better off not saying anything about what isn’t in the book. Sort of trying to have it both ways. I think he probably lost his temper a bit.Yeah, hey, I don't love that little bit at all. If it's not in the book, don't talk about it.
Perhaps FIGJAM has just been getting the jump on 2022's Player Impact Awards... it's a bitch that for all his bullshit, winning the PGA at 50, he STILL can't beat Woods in a leg cast...he can dry his tears on that 6 million, which it seems basically given for being a controversial asshole on/off the course...
https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/03/02/tiger-woods-tops-player-impact-program-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html (https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/03/02/tiger-woods-tops-player-impact-program-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html)
I invite you to read the entirety of the brief article... this program is exactly how we've lost the plot...in everything. Read the 7th graph...after the criteria...about how Woods was certain to lead in two of them, yet they were "surprised" that he had so much earned media (unique news articles...another lackey bullshit making machine, now just a fly dick above FB posts).
It's all puffery and bullshit... now quality of play and character is last and second to last...
He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour.Except he wasn't. He was trying to cash in and figured "I was just trying to make the PGA Tour better" sounded the best.
He told the truth about the pga.No, he didn't. He got almost every bit of "data" he said about the PGA Tour wrong, often grossly so.
Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn.Those sports are significantly more popular/earn quite a bit more money than golf.
What happened to free speech?He wasn't arrested for his free speech, and nobody impaired his right to it.
I still think there is more to this story than what I've read so far for all his sponsors to drop him like a hot potato. He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour. Exactly what is done in many other sports by union officials on behalf of their players. He told the truth about the Saudi's. He told the truth about the pga. Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn. He was just telling the truth of what many players think. What happened to free speech? The punishment doesn't fit this crime, in my humble opinion.
I still think there is more to this story than what I've read so far for all his sponsors to drop him like a hot potato. He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour. Exactly what is done in many other sports by union officials on behalf of their players. He told the truth about the Saudi's. He told the truth about the pga. Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn. He was just telling the truth of what many players think. What happened to free speech? The punishment doesn't fit this crime, in my humble opinion.
The other thing is, footballers and basketball players have salaries. Not sure you can say the same thing about golfers unless you are referring to their off-course earnings which brings us back to the media rights issue.They're also not independent to choose when and where they play. And their leagues, once again, make a tremendous amount more money than the PGA Tour. Golf is still not a "top five" sport.
They are guaranteed nothing.Because they haven't signed a contract like players in other sports have: the players in other sports are guaranteed a payday because they're operating under a whole different premise. They're part of a union, they sign contracts. Golfers are mostly independent contractors, so they arguably give up some $ for some freedom. Freedom to make their own schedules, etc. AND their leagues make a heck of a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
Sponsorship and therefore control of their image surely count for more to a golfer than they do for another athlete who is contracted to a team.
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me. What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments? Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets. That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
I don't think it's about the Saudis at all.
Many/most of his sponsors do business there, as do many of his peers.
It's about bashing the hand that fed him for 30 lucrative years, and personally bashing its Commissioner, then turning around and bashing the tour/sponsoring country that you admit using for leverage against your own tour.
Regardless of his intentions, the sponsors came to the conclusion that their dollars might be spent better elsewhere.Quite an easy decision given that Phil gave them the option.
Phil gave them the option and they made a decision.
I agree with your comment in principle...but...PGA Tour players still have by-laws they must adhere too in terms of what they can wear, minimum # of events, interaction with other players and media, etc.Of course. That's a far cry, as you know, from the other sports and the requirements they place on your time and the limitations on your freedoms.
Seems long overdue that anyone who shows up to an event and misses the cut should get enough to at least cover costs of traveling, lodging, caddy costs, etc. and I'd bet the PIP money alone would be enough to cover most of this.They give players who play 15 events $50k.
While the top 50 on Tour no doubt are doing well between winnings and lucrative endorsements, hope they do more for the other guys. No doubt athletes who are 51-200 in the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc are doing far far better financially than those on Tour.
This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year. > $2B held in cash and securities. Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts. The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash. i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even).
How is the pay in the NBA Senior League?
This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year. > $2B held in cash and securities. Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts. The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash. i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even).
For better or worse, The Tour owns and operates 30+ TPC courses. You can't take a serious look at the tour's income/expenses/ assests/liabilities without seperating these out. They are significant assetts that generate signifcant revenue and have significant expenses. There is no billion dollars sitting in the tour accounts.
Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.Even after David's corrections I still don't think you're reading that correctly. There's not $1B liquid sitting around.
The salaries, wages, and benefits paid out by the tour were more than 3x what was given out to charities ($141MM vs $41MM).Almost all of the charitable givings are by the tournaments, which are almost all set up as separate entities. The PGA Tour doesn't run the Phoenix Open, the Firebirds do.
And the chairman of the Board supposedly shot down a proposal for a way to fend off the Saudi league (although the proposal sounds shady too):Supposedly Phil was the "source" for that article.
https://nypost.com/2022/02/20/pga-tour-nixed-league-that-would-have-squashed-saudi-rivals/ (https://www.glensfallschronicle.com/edward-herlihy-glens-falls-native-has-key-role-in-pro-golf-mega-battle/)
Thanks for posting up the various comparisons between the NBA and The PGATour.Except he didn't post the proper understanding/interpretation of it.
P.S. The 50th highest paid player in the NBA makes over $20 mill per year. At most only one player on Tour is even coming close to that, the Fedex cup champ, (unless they have a beyond Tiger-good year and win 15-20 tournies...in one year.)
This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year. > $2B held in cash and securities. Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts. The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash. i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even).
For better or worse, The Tour owns and operates 30+ TPC courses. You can't take a serious look at the tour's income/expenses/ assests/liabilities without seperating these out. They are significant assetts that generate signifcant revenue and have significant expenses. There is no billion dollars sitting in the tour accounts.
On the balance sheet that I linked to, they showed $140MM in cash, $40MM in A/R, $430MM in notes receivable, $1.5B in marketable securities, and $694MM in other securities.
I assumed that their golf course holdings were in that $694MM figure and not in the marketable/ publicly traded securities figure. However, that is a separate entity/ subsidiary called the TPC Network and doesn't qualify for the not-for-profit status. So, I don't think that any of the revenues or expenses from that operation is in the Form 990. Maybe the assets and liabilities are also separated. Most of the TPC courses are just operated by them, not owned.
Erik,
I don't work in the financial sector, but my understanding of a "Marketable Security" is similar to what Pete is implying...an easily liquidable asset that can be converted to cash quickly on public exchanges (maturities of 90 days or less). This is their primary characteristic/selling point as cash equivalents because yes it would be dumb for an org their size to have $1 Bill in cash laying around.
So IMO, its not an inaccurate description to say they have that amount "on hand"
P.S. As for a significantly shorter playing career, are you claiming that making $20 million over say 8-10 years is less favorable than making same over 25-30 years? Because I sure as hell wouldn't pick the latter...
I don't work in the financial sector, but my understanding of a "Marketable Security" is similar to what Pete is implying...an easily liquidable asset that can be converted to cash quickly on public exchanges (maturities of 90 days or less). This is their primary characteristic/selling point as cash equivalents because yes it would be dumb for an org their size to have $1 Bill in cash laying around.I can only say what I've heard from others, as I too am not a financial guy. Also, they have quite a bit less now because they had to fund a lot of the pandemic stuff.
P.S. As for a significantly shorter playing career, are you claiming that making $20 million over say 8-10 years is less favorable than making same over 25-30 years?I'm not claiming one is more "favorable" than the other, only that while you can earn $5M being a scrub NBA player, you only do so for 2 or 3 or 4 years, often. So it's not like the scrubs are staying in the NBA for 30 years and then playing the Senior NBA.
Many thanks for that explanation of the financial situation. So in essence Mickelson was correct about the tour and the scale of the funds it has available even if he wasn't completely accurate to the last dollar and cent.No, he wasn't. And even if you want to claim that he was "right" about this one very specific thing, he was wrong about the percentage paid out to players (he said something like 26%), the value of the "digital assets," and plenty of other things. Additionally, he was still working with the Saudi Arabian government.
Are we seriously suggesting that Mickelson shouldn't be looking to make the most of it when he can?No. We're suggesting he (and you) are really far off-base with a lot of his "facts" and ignoring the context in which those comments are made (i.e. taking Saudi blood money).
In this otherwise enlightened conversation about the finances of the PGA Tour, no one has yet to describe the multi-billion dollar retirement plan that the Tour creates and manages for its players.
I suggested that in essence he was correct, do you dispute that?Do you dispute that he was incorrect about almost everything else he said?
And in terms of context, I have previously suggested on more than one occasion that his interaction with the Saudi's or their representatives (you can call it "working with" or negotiating, it doesn't really matter) was a means of gaining leverage with the tour in order to get a better deal, which judging by his comments to the journalist seems like his preferred outcome. That's the context that's relevant for this discussion.Apparently you do not. The fact that you still believe that says quite a bit. The context is the whole bit, not just the bits the gullible people want to think are relevant.
Here’s the context in terms of Mickelson using the proposed Saudi tour as leverage against the PGA Tour;I'm well aware of the context, as I'm fully aware of the fact that you're taking a guy who is full of shit at his word, when the same guy has gotten numerous basic facts dead wrong.
Now you may argue he still might have joined the Saudi tour, and I wouldn’t dispute that, but I think even a febrile Mickelson hater like yourself would acknowledge that isn’t his preferred outcome.I don't hate the guy. Not even a little. I just think he's a phony, and that you're buying whatever he's selling. I think he's got a reputation that's nothing like the one he deserves. I think he'd have played on the Saudi Tour and taken their money, absolutely.
Peter/Kalen/John
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the football and basketball contracts are for a number of years and they still pay out even if the player gets injured and can't play during the period of the contract
Niall
The players are 4 out of the 10 board seats. They can't enact change through that channelThey can and have "enacted change through that channel." It's not like the other six members are against the players by rule or role - they're there to provide a business perspective to a bunch of athletes, not to oppose them in all they want to do.
Phil concluded after years of dealing with them that the only way to get change was by being an activist.Where's your proof that Phil ever "dealt with them" let alone "after years"?
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?For as much heat as he has taken, don't forget he won a major last year! He isn't washed up by any means, despite all the shade he gets and yes much deservered. However, he is the defending PGA Champion.
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless. And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.
Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless. And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.
Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.
It’s being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless. And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.
Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.
It’s being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.
After I wrote the above post, I read that same thing, reported I believe by Golfweek. The article said that he had either been asked or told by ANGC not to come, and also reported that he is, in fact, currently suspended by the Tour.
If all of that is true, and it’s certainly believable, then combined with loss of sponsors this would appear to be arguably the biggest blunder in golf history.
Given Phil's stature as an all-time great, with a huge fan base, have to believe that we are privy to only the tip of the iceberg as to everything that went down. If not, the punishment seems grossly excessive to the transgression. Other than Cabrera being in jail, has there even been a revocation of a Masters invite for anyone, let alone a player of Phil's stature?
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'. ;)
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'. ;)
Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas. There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because I’m not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions.
But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and I’ve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .
The opportunities To play were amazing. The staff I dealt with were top shelf. Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'. ;)
Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas. There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because I’m not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions.
But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and I’ve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .
The opportunities To play were amazing. The staff I dealt with were top shelf. Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.
I know you don't have a union and are independent contractors so maybe they just treat the journeymen poorly.
I'm still curious as to the length of his suspension, anyone have inside information?
Lou:Who? Hard to image a scenario where Phil was lead down the garden path without his knowledge.
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Lou:Perhaps we could agree that there is nobody who can (or has) done Phil more harm than Phil himself.
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
I'm curious too who these "others" may be.
P.S. I think Phil's attempt at a greed based argument rang very hollow considering he's richer than dirt and made more than anyone on the planet (outside of Tiger) by playing golf.
Maybe Pete RoseLou:Perhaps we could agree that there is nobody who can (or has) done Phil more harm than Phil himself.
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Very interesting column from Alan Shipnuck:
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/inside-the-phil-mickelson-firestorm-from-the-man-who-sparked-it?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050522&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM27527&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0 (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/inside-the-phil-mickelson-firestorm-from-the-man-who-sparked-it?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050522&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM27527&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0)
Pretty sure this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's total bush league stuff to basically omit any details and then still tell the "off the record" stories and talk about how they would've been international news if he'd been able to write the story. Chances are many will interpret that as something worse than whatever the actual story would've been.
Steve,
I thought his beard references were lame. I also believe this book is beneath him. Has the author made it on barstool yet?
Pretty sure this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's total bush league stuff to basically omit any details and then still tell the "off the record" stories and talk about how they would've been international news if he'd been able to write the story. Chances are many will interpret that as something worse than whatever the actual story would've been.
Mark & John,
Do you personally know the author, Alan Shipnuck, or are you just content to slander his integrity willy-nilly because it feels good for you?
Mark,
You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.
He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.
Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.
Mark,
You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.
He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.
Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.
Ask around .. it won't take you long to find out about Shipnuck.
Mark,
You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.
He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.
Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.
Ask around .. it won't take you long to find out about Shipnuck.
Really? Do you believe what others tell you about different people? Especially in the golf world?
Alan has been a good friend of mine for quite some time.
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.
Ciao
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.
Ciao
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.
Ciao
No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.
Ciao
No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.
You are missing the point. By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis and many other sordid types throughout our history. I am not convinced it can be avoided to be honest. Choosing to turn a blind eye doesn't make it any less true.
Ciao
Rob, Don't be daft!
What Kalen said! Living in the country does not mean, axiomatically, that you agree with that government's (and was it Scotland's or England's) every decision!
I can assure you that many, many Scots were furious that the bomber was allowed to "flee". I could feel the anger in my family all the way down here to Oz.
If you decide to snub, denigrate, demean and boycott the Scots remember their motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"!
Heaven forbid you might miss out on a few golf courses!!
Cheers Colin
Sean,
I disagree with the above statements. Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into. Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise.
As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements. As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.
P.S. And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady
Sean,
I disagree with the above statements. Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into. Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise.
As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements. As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.
P.S. And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady
It's good to know some people are trying to keep tabs.. thank you. But, ultimately, the people are responsible for their elected leaders which is presumably one reason you keep tabs. It doesn't mean we agree with all their actions, but on some level we are, in fact responsible. But it goes much deeper. The money rolling through our economy makes it nearly impossible to steer clear of blood money. Our society is infected with blood money. That's just the way it is and as I said before, I don't know if it's possible to keep an economy 100% clean money, whatever that means which is partly my point. We all have a different definition of dirty money.
Ciao
Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers
Almost certainly coerced.
This guy is so out of touch.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing)
I won't exactly call butchering an American journalist like a cow an "opps, we all make "mistakes". Normans ego does not allow him to accept reality.It's not easy to find a way to make Mickelson and Shipnuck look good in this mess, but Norman was able to do it with ease. And fwiw, Norman isn't just about hating the PGA Tour; he is attempting to use the R&A as part of his show by casting them as bad guys for not letting a 67 year old publicity hound who hasn't competed in years have a spot in the Open.
I think Phil Michelson's gambling habits, loss of everyone of his sponsors and the severe loss of income will cause Phil to go to the Saudi Tour. Phil parted ways with his caddy because Phil owed him back pay...that says an awful lot about Phil's money woes. I heard he parted with his beloved Private Jet, he has not started construction on his Jupiter Island Home. Could it be that Phil is broke? If the Saudi's are offering him a guaranteed $25 million per year deal, I'd bet (no pun intended) he takes it.
A friend visited the Tour's facility in FL recently and remarked about its space-age, opulent digs. I think that Lefty's major issue has a bit to do with the benefits of the Tour flowing disproportionately to those who have relatively little to do with its success.
Notwithstanding his rhetorical excess, he may have a point. Ultra-high salaries and benefits, enviable travel perks, and getting in as an integral part of "the show" by folks who don't hit a single shot probably wears thin on those who make their way primarily on the scores they achieve. How a journeyman like Pat Burke does not enjoy pension benefits despite the many cuts he made prior to injury is puzzling.
The $Billions of past, current and projected revenues from all the data and images which are being created for at least 20+ years should be widely shared, IMO. If the Tour was in the oil or healthcare business and restrained trade as it is attempting to do, I am sure that the federal government would have stepped in. $1 Billion in non-pension obligated cash should be more than ample to meet a Black Swan possibly appearing in the future. Are we not getting a bit tired of blaming Covid for all the crap that we are currently experiencing? Thank God we haven't quite yet jumped the shark and started blaming Putin for this mess.
I will miss not seeing Michelson at Southern Hills. He probably would not have made the cut, but it would have added a lot more interest.
I have a hard time believing Phil is broke. All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more. Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.
I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off. He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...
P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..
He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play. When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.
I have a hard time believing Phil is broke. All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more. Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.
I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off. He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...
P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..
He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play. When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.
1. Isn’t it possible that Phil’s net worth is fine, but that he is strapped for liquidity. Gambling losses are pretty liquid.
2. Phil has earned nearly $100m on the PGA Tour, however long it took. But he is a professional golfer, and is completely entitled to chase dollars, whether or not he’s in financial trouble. But it would have been far better if he had applied Occam’s Razor in his statements or Shipnuck and the public. Take the money and go away. Don’t go away mad; just go away.
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.
My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.
He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.
The Tour has made Phil a martyr. Even other players who don’t care for him personally will support him now behind the scenes. Or more publicly as did Sergio. Phil skipping the PGA this week is brilliant. The only winners this week are Shipnuck and the Saudi’s. Congrats suckers!!!
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.
My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.
He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.
He committed insider trading using a tip from a guy he owed a million dollar gambling debt too, so that he could pay off the debt. If he was flush why wouldn't he have written a check instead of committing a crime? As stated above, it is an addiction.
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.
My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.
He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.
He allegedly committed insider trading using a tip from a guy he owed a million dollar gambling debt too, so that he could pay off the debt. If he was flush why wouldn't he have written a check instead of committing a crime? As stated above, it is an addiction.
I didn't realize Phil was found guilty.
Ciao
The Tour has made Phil a martyr. Even other players who don’t care for him personally will support him now behind the scenes. Or more publicly as did Sergio. Phil skipping the PGA this week is brilliant. The only winners this week are Shipnuck and the Saudi’s. Congrats suckers!!!
John,
Unfortunately, you are sorely incorrect. Phil is laying low for a # of reasons, most of them directly related to both his past, present and future financial position and the current state of his game. Don't fret, you'll be seeing enough of your man-crush soon enough when the LIV Tour starts. Only then does Phil become whole and liquid enough to go back to the lifestyle he so desires. Alan Shipnuck was little more than the author that wrote the biography and carried Phils' no-filter message. Phil was, is, and will always be the brightest super nova of his own universe. He has only himself to blame.
What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.That might be one of the dumbest things typed on this site.
What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.That might be one of the dumbest things typed on this site.
Maybe I don't care much about Phil's personal life or faults. Maybe you don't. But to be ignorant to why they're more "newsworthy"?
Those are two different things. Of course he'd try to make more of a profit, but pretending you think your life or my life or whomever's is equally as (non-)newsworthy as Phil's is just folly.QuoteWhat I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.I wasn’t completely disgusted until I learned that the book was being released during the week that Phil would be defending his PGA title.
Sean -
I do not think PM was ever charged with a crime. I am 99.9% sure he was never convicted of one, but I do believe he was obliged to pay back the profits from the stock trade he made based on information/advice he received from Billy Walters.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phils-insider-trading-escape (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phils-insider-trading-escape)
DT
What percentage of golfing bibliophiles who purchase the Phil book will also pick up the new SI swimsuit issue on this glorious day? How will you choose which to read first? Which would you be most embarrassed to be seen reading on a plane?
The classic rivalry between misogynists and quidnuncs is alive and well in golf town. You must all be proud. On with the juice!!!
I get why people write about the failings of men for profit. I also get the enjoyment in watching others fail. What I don’t understand is why Phil’s failings as a father and husband are any different than mine.
Like the old sayings goes. If you don’t stand up for the others now they be coming after you next. It’s only a matter of time before some algorithm without a mortgage in Carmel can write a book about any of us for 10 cents a dance. That is scary indeed.
History has taught us never to underestimate the ability of them to come after you next.
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.
No, John; when “they” come after groups, “they” pick the group, not the other way around. And you’re a well-to-do white guy, so nobody is coming for you AT ALL
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.
No, John; when “they” come after groups, “they” pick the group, not the other way around. And you’re a well-to-do white guy, so nobody is coming for you AT ALL
What exactly is Phil?
Like I’m not.Point taken, John.
Phil's sponsors prominently displayed must be so excited about this picture...........
https://www.golfwrx.com/676935/how-mickelson-gambled-during-tournaments-with-announcer-who-was-throwing-wadded-up-twenties-out-of-tower/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused (https://www.golfwrx.com/676935/how-mickelson-gambled-during-tournaments-with-announcer-who-was-throwing-wadded-up-twenties-out-of-tower/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused)
Nonetheless, he is a strange guy. Maybe one needs to be strange to compete at that level for 30 years.
I finished the book. It actually is much more positive about Phil than the released excerpts suggest and provides little related to the gambling that has not already been released.
I am not sure whether it made me think more positively or more negatively of the guy. I will always admire his career - particularly his longevity and his ability to come back from losses of the type that typically crush others. I also have always admired how he makes the game fun.
I just started the book, so far it is ok.
Nonetheless, he is a strange guy. Maybe one needs to be strange to compete at that level for 30 years.
Is the word sex ever used in the book?
Is the word sex ever used in the book?
Don’t think so.
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?
Let me dumb it down for you intellectuals: Don’t crap where you eat.
Mike
Tommy
Nice sermon but you didn't really answer Cary's question which was what did Phil do to deserve how he was treated, by which I presume Cary means being banned by the Tour and being dropped by his sponsors.
Let me suggest that he sinned against the Tour by threatening their power which is based on their near monopoly position. The Tour sanctioned him as a warning to others, a bit like the way Mexican drug cartels kill the competition and leave the dead bodies on the street, except with less blood obviously.
As for the sponsors, well Phil has suddenly lost a good bit of exposure which makes him a much less attractive proposition, allied to the fact that he described a section of their client/customer base with in plain and stark terms, none of which was complimentary.
Niall
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?What punishment?
P.S. I don't understand why people struggle to understand the concept of being accountable to the consequences of free speech. No one is saying he can't call a press conference right now and speak his mind, hell at this point it may do him some good.
Does the PGA Tour have strong legal footing when they dictate that it's OK to play in European or Asian events but not Saudi sanctioned tournaments? I'd be very interested in knowing how the tour would defend lifetime bans in court if players play in Saudi sponsored events and get punished.
Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?
Phil won the media battle this weekend. He just may be as smart as he always posed to be. How many of us this weekend wished he was playing? Only 10 dudes showed up for the Champions dinner. Both Brady and Barkley were talking about Phil in a positive light. Genius marketing.John, only you could spin this to be in ANY way favorable to Mickelson.
AG,
I'm curious why you think the situation with independent contractors on Tour is unique?
I've seen similar in my 20+ years in the tech biz. Independent contractors are hired to work for a firm, they sign an agreement that they won't work for anyone else (in a related field) until the contract is over/ended. Very common.
I've even heard of construction contracts for high profile jobs who are restricted to working on that project until completion...
In general, as long as two parties agree to terms and the work/service is legal, I would consider it binding
+1I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?
He is allowed freedom of speech. Sometimes there are consequences to one’s speech, as he found out. No one is the worst thing he ever said or did but good works do not nullify the other things we say or do.
Does the PGA Tour have strong legal footing when they dictate that it's OK to play in European or Asian events but not Saudi sanctioned tournaments? I'd be very interested in knowing how the tour would defend lifetime bans in court if players play in Saudi sponsored events and get punished.
Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?
Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?
There are quite a few members of the PGA Tour who have played in Saudi Arabia and in fact, I was listening to PGA Tour radio and they were saying how great it was that Harold Varner III had won in Saudi Arabia. How about all of the events played by PGA Tour members as well as LPGA Tour members in China; China certainly does not have an exemplary record with respect o human rights.One event sanctioned by the European (DP World?) Tour isn't the same as an entire Tour with several events in the U.S.
I know how important Tiger was and is to the Tour but Phil is not far behind as he was always very approachable to the press and to the fans where Tiger was not.
I really wish that the Commissioner would sit down with Phil and work this out as the fans miss him and love him
I personally think the author is an ASSHOLE for attempting to destroy Phil to sell a few books. We are all imperfect human being, we all make mistakes, Phil ran off at the mouth, and for that, he gets destroyed. Sorry, the consequences IMHO are way too severe. My book is going to be thrown in the trash, where is rightfully belongs.Oy.
I stand by my contention that any of us or those we love could be taken down by the written word combined with the whisper of innuendo. If we don’t speak up for a Phil who will be left to speak for us.Due process? Seriously? That has even less to do with this than the red herring of "free speech". Which is nothing whatsoever...
Even a Karen isn’t afforded due process.
What I am suggesting is that the Tour should recognize how much he has done for the TourI think you and the Tour (and many other people) would be pretty far apart on whether the Tour or Phil have benefited the most there, and who "owes" who anything.
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:
https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:
https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)
What a saint he is ..
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:
https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)
What a saint he is ..
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:
https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)
What a saint he is ..
Quit reading at the mention of Trump. Another lazy golf writer.
Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion, to sum it up, you are free to speak but live with the consequences.
Now for this question: What should Phil do now? He's 52, he can't really make significant money on the senior tour, his $50 million per year from sponsors is gone, should he sign with the Saudi Tour for $100 million and make a complete break or should he eat humble pie, beg for forgiveness, and try to get his fans and sponsors to rally around him?
A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.That's essentially a complete guess, and a good chunk of that isn't anything close to liquid.
A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.That's essentially a complete guess, and a good chunk of that isn't anything close to liquid.
Does it matter? It's likely that if he never made another cent on the course, he's set for life.That may not be true.
Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion, to sum it up, you are free to speak but live with the consequences.
I seriously doubt he has anywhere close to $400 million
Now for this question: What should Phil do now? He's 52, he can't really make significant money on the senior tour, his $50 million per year from sponsors is gone, should he sign with the Saudi Tour for $100 million and make a complete break or should he eat humble pie, beg for forgiveness, and try to get his fans and sponsors to rally around him?
A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.
If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill.
Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.
If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill.
Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.
If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill.
Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreude over Phil’s current situation he has no more viable information regarding his financial situation than you, I or anyone else that has posted. Even if he’s only got $100 million instead of $400 million with half of that being liquid he should be able to manage.
If the $400 mill number is accurateThat's a BIG if.
Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreudeDead wrong as usual, Tim.
If the $400 mill number is accurateThat's a BIG if.
There's credible talk that much of what Phil does is because he's somewhat hard up for cash. His move to Callaway, this LIV crap… etc.
Anyway, I've just started reading the book. I've continued to hear that if you like Phil, the book will make you like him more. If you dislike Phil, you'll dislike him more.
Shipnuck's interviews haven't impressed me. And I've heard most of what is in the book you could have heard in interviews. Guess I'll see.Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreudeDead wrong as usual, Tim.
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.
I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.
I know how I feel about this. You do not.
Seems like your backpedaling.Nope. I went back and re-read most of my posts in this topic. I'm comfortable in being the one who knows best how I feel.
How much less could you care? And "not one?"
Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
That's PGA Tour, not PGA, and the cash reserves are both not nearly as big as Phil thinks they are, nor are they as big now since they helped fund the PGA Tour through the pandemic. That's what those reserves can be used to do - survive stuff like the pandemic while still putting on tournaments.None of Phil's stated numbers are generally close. The Tour pays out a comparable portion of its revenues, not 26% like Phil claimed. Etc. He's full of shit on a lot of what he says. $2B in digital assets? How on earth does he arrive at that number? And do players own their images/video in other sports? No, because the league negotiates the terms of the TV deals (or teams do).The list of BS from Phil goes on and on.
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.Are you also against all news articles that are unauthorized? Because this isn't all that different. More below.It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.Alan is a reporter, and here's where things are things are the same as the news stuff above: they still have to get sources. They still have to verify things, or report who said what. If Billy Walters is quoted as saying "Phil did this" and Phil didn't do that, his issue isn't with Alan, it's with Billy. And Alan likely also double- or triple-sourced that, even though the one hardest hitting quote might come from Billy. (Or whatever.)It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it. i.e. it changes their life.Phil's life is already "changed" because he's a public figure. He's not exactly shied away from publicity.And Alan asked Phil to be involved repeatedly. Phil, until he called, chose not to be involved. That's a choice he made.Did you object to the Tiger biography from the investigative reporters. I did, but only after the fact because the book got many basic facts wrong, and because I've grown up in the Tiger era, I didn't learn much new. That won't be the case with the Phil book, from what I hear. But I had no issue with them writing it. I only wish it had been better.
His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.
If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill.
Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
If he’s worth 40 million (liquid) why would he have owed Bones money when they split? Why would he have not just written a check to pay his gambling debts?
As for Bones, I also presume Phil is a normal human who is subject to prideful spite from time to time and he certainly wouldn't be the only person on the planet to stiff someone when a relationship fell apart.I think the stiffing was the cause of the breakup, not a byproduct. I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet but others have, and I think Bones was owed about a million dollars (mainly from the FedExCup bonuses) in back pay, and Phil wasn't paying for a long time, so Bones ended the relationship. I also think I heard Phil may have paid a portion (like $400k, and then maybe another $500k), but was still a few thousand to hundred thousand short.
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.
If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill.
Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
If he’s worth 40 million (liquid) why would he have owed Bones money when they split? Why would he have not just written a check to pay his gambling debts?
Rob,
His gambling issues occurred a decade ago so I presume they have been resolved, but perhaps not.
As for Bones, I also presume Phil is a normal human who is subject to prideful spite from time to time and he certainly wouldn't be the only person on the planet to stiff someone when a relationship fell apart.
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.
I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.
I know how I feel about this. You do not.
Seems like your backpedaling. Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.
I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.
I know how I feel about this. You do not.
Seems like your backpedaling. Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)
Tim,
I think you are the only person who responded to any of his posts. Just ignore them. You fell into his trap……JAT
Rob-Engaging with him is like not marking and then waving at a short putt. I tell myself not to do it but occasionally it happens. ;DAnd yet my posts are on-topic, while many of your posts or Rob's posts are simply about me. None of my posts here demonstrate "malice" toward Phil Mickelson. Get a new dictionary.
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable.
If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable.
If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything
Excellent; thank you!
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable.
If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything
Excellent; thank you!
On the other hand, if you believe everything you say is undeniably the truth and anyone else's view that is contrary is just ignorant drivel, then you are probably beyond having a discussion in any case.
Niall
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable.
If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything
Excellent; thank you!
On the other hand, if you believe everything you say is undeniably the truth and anyone else's view that is contrary is just ignorant drivel, then you are probably beyond having a discussion in any case.
Niall
Niall,
As George Carlin said, “My shit is stuff, and your stuff is shit.”
https://wapo.st/396MGro (https://wapo.st/396MGro) don't know if you'll be able to access this wapo articleThis might be the better article:
I have always thought PM was a fake and always cheered against him except on the Ryder Cup. Fake smile, fake thumbs up and now he will fit in well on a fake pro tour. His game speaks for itself and he's earned everything he's accomplished on the course. Outwardly he still comes off as a fake playing on a tour bankrolled by mf'n(his words) thugs. I won't miss him and will continue to wish him nothing but bad luck in the majors he does play in.
Just curious … would people be as bothered if the sponsoring entity was the government of Portugal or Taiwan or similar country? Just curious if it’s Saudi Arabia that people have a problem with or a rival tour or both.
Saudi money is a convenient excuse."Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.
Saudi money is a convenient excuse."Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.
Is the Saudi $ and their goal of sportswashing not more than an "excuse"?
Yes it is, but not more than the PGA tour sports washing for the USA.Oh brother. That's a bullshit type comment to make on more than one level.
Do you think they've been right to do so, or instead very wrong?
It is not inconceivable that Phil is an idiot.
Bogey
I understand that an addiction to a drug or tobacco can be caused by a chemical dependence and become a disease and not necessarily a matter of free will. Is addiction to gambling of the same ilk?
People here and over the years have criticized Phil as a fake and a fraud. But in his comments today he came as close to openly talking about significant mental health issues and full blown addictions as any big star ever has; and as anyone who has grappled with addictions and mental health issues knows, it's not a matter of intentionally fooling people or of being a hypocrite, but instead of trying desperately to hide (sometimes especially from yourself) what feels like a dark and ugly secret, and of overcompensating for the feelings of shame and self-contempt always threatening to overwhelm you so that you might be able -- through your outward successes and achievements -- to somehow makes amends, especially to those you love most and who have stood by you. That's what I think, anyways; Phil is no more -- or less -- a moral failure than I am. What separates PM from many other addicts and troubled souls is only that he has a talent and is in a profession that society has decided to reward incredibly handsomely, and to treat with kid gloves. I won't hold that against him.
If we were to review all sponsors on all major tours, how many do you think we’d find that have sone business or investment ties to Saudi Arabia?
If sone do but we don’t know about it, is it ok?
Steve, that’s an interesting take.
My opinion on the matter is if people are making money or enjoying entertainment from investments or entities with business ties to the SA Kingdom, but don’t know about it, it’s not an issue.
Kind of like, we want your money, but please keep it on the down low. It’s the idea that they have come out that really is bothersome.
Steve, that’s an interesting take.
My opinion on the matter is if people are making money or enjoying entertainment from investments or entities with business ties to the SA Kingdom, but don’t know about it, it’s not an issue.
Kind of like, we want your money, but please keep it on the down low. It’s the idea that they have come out that really is bothersome.
Don,
You aren't wrong, however, a large, large part of American enterprise is globalized and thus willing to do business in every country willing to conduct profitable trade, save for those federally sanctioned (i.e. Russia,North Korea, etc..). Few, if any, companies, care where their products are sold, so long as the bills are paid.
The real issue here is the direct investment arm of the ruling Saudi family has directed nearly a billion dollars to establishing a competitive professional golf tour. Right or wrong, there is little daylight between the state and the LIV. As for various US businesses conducting normal commerce, there is often a wide berth created between seller, buyer and political association or incrimination.
Hope all is well with you!
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:
https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)
What a saint he is ..
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.
Double naught. As in 007
8) JB is probably wondering how many pages this thread will go to... maybe nothttps://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/eamon-lynch-why-arent-women-criticized-like-the-men-for-taking-saudi-money-its-need-vs-greed/ar-AAQot1T
Beyond Jethro subterfuge... Where was all this moral outrage when the Ladies were funded by the Saudis?
Aramco Saudi Ladies International presented by Public Investment Fund
https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022 (https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022)
8) JB is probably wondering how many pages this thread will go to... maybe not
Beyond Jethro subterfuge... Where was all this moral outrage when the Ladies were funded by the Saudis?
Aramco Saudi Ladies International presented by Public Investment Fund
https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022 (https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022)
From the NY Post - a 9/11 surivor's group take on Mickelson, et al.:
https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/ (https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/)
Boston’s no slouch
8) The outraged will get their chances to voice their sentiments soon enough in Metro NY/NJ end of July and in Boston beginning of Sept.
I guess its not Shell's Wonderful World of Golf anymore... like Sam & Jack at Pebble: https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho (https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho)
Didn't mean to slight potential outrage directed to LIV at Pumpkin Ridge in the great NW, just haven't really seen the ANTIFA crowd actually voice anything coherently between bashing people with skateboards, using fireworks offensively, and setting dumpster fires...
I am sure Sergio would rather deal with them over the crowd at the Open at Bethpage Black. ::)
8) CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?
MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...
JUST SAYING.
Anti-democratic, fascist forces sounds like the current Republican party to me. :P8) CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?
MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...
JUST SAYING.
Kudos to your dad for putting it on the line to defeat fascist forces, just like today's American Trumpublicans. But whether he likes, would have liked, may not have liked, is raging against liking... or not, he contributed to defeating anti-democratic, fascist forces, The Axis powers, whose troops he battled, was fascist and in the basic definition he operated as an ANTI FASCIST. Unfortunately we don't or can't control the labels we get wrapped up with.
Anti-democratic, fascist forces sounds like the current Republican party to me. :P8) CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?
MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...
JUST SAYING.
Kudos to your dad for putting it on the line to defeat fascist forces, just like today's American Trumpublicans. But whether he likes, would have liked, may not have liked, is raging against liking... or not, he contributed to defeating anti-democratic, fascist forces, The Axis powers, whose troops he battled, was fascist and in the basic definition he operated as an ANTI FASCIST. Unfortunately we don't or can't control the labels we get wrapped up with.
My grievance with the Tour is that I believe golf would be more fun for me if the professional tour never existed. Now the commissioner wants me to feel like I’ve lost my moral compass if I watch anything else. You can’t beat labor by shaming the client.So your against the LIV tour and all the rest, DP, KORN, LPGA etc. too right? What about the USGA and R&A, they are tours also right? What would you have an open every week with qualifying and who would handle sponsorship and rules, planning?
Mickelson and Dechambeau who were in different practice round groups didn’t get much crowd reaction yesterday when playing off of 1 tee. I didn’t see any interaction on the practice putting green between Phil and other players. He was getting some fan appreciation out on the golf course when we saw him and I didn’t hear any boos. Finally no shock that Kevin Na played the practice round with Phil.If you go to the Masters and listen to others, you realize how many people are there "for something to do" who aren't really truly deep golf fans. It's a place to be seen, a thing to do, an event. The same is true at places like U.S. Opens, etc., so I think there are a LOT of spectators — and this includes golf fans — who only know "hey, that's Phil Mickelson!" and don't know a thing about Saudi Arabia. He'll be cheered around the place, and we're (the "stronger" or "deeper" golf fans for lack of better words) the only ones who know a lot about this stuff.
Time for a new NEWS cycle, this is getting boringTo you, but you don't think Phil did anything "wrong." It's only getting started. Next March/April will be interesting.
Charles Barkley for the win, as usual::)
“If somebody offered me $200 million, I’d kill a relative, even one I liked.”
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:
https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)
“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”
Time for a new NEWS cycle, this is getting boringTo you, but you don't think Phil did anything "wrong." It's only getting started. Next March/April will be interesting.
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:
https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)
“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”
The point he makes about those guys losing their edge is interesting. I think he's right, especially with guys who've said they're not enjoying the grind...like Dechambeau.
Something I keep wondering is what happens when/if they sign up 100 players and only 48 can play?
I'm not saying Phil did nothing wrong, he obviously did, but what I'm saying, at 52 years old, he is no longer competative, he was 11 over at the US Open, he earned nothing. He has Zero sponsors, so the money grab at $200 million, I'm guessing that more than half on this board would take that in a second.Phil could have earned $20-30M+ or so per year for 20+ years if he had kept sponsors and just continued to be kind of a modern day Arnold Palmer. Given the choice between $200M and maybe double or triple that, albeit spread out, I'd probably have taken the greater amount, and that's without considering who is paying.
I'm not saying Phil did nothing wrong, he obviously did, but what I'm saying, at 52 years old, he is no longer competative, he was 11 over at the US Open, he earned nothing. He has Zero sponsors, so the money grab at $200 million, I'm guessing that more than half on this board would take that in a second.Phil could have earned $20-30M+ or so per year for 20+ years if he had kept sponsors and just continued to be kind of a modern day Arnold Palmer. Given the choice between $200M and maybe double or triple that, albeit spread out, I'd probably have taken the greater amount, and that's without considering who is paying.
And to the 100 vs. 48 stuff… they haven't "signed" some of the lower players. I think they know they might play only an event or two.
Could and if may well be much less than his payday.Perhaps. But even if they end up being about the same amount… there's still the damage done to his reputation/image/brand, whatever you want to call it.
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:
https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)
“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”