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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Carl Johnson on February 18, 2022, 10:35:29 PM

Title: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on February 18, 2022, 10:35:29 PM
https://wapo.st/3H6mo3g
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Abt on February 18, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
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Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on February 19, 2022, 08:19:20 AM
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Bernie Bell on February 19, 2022, 08:38:20 AM
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 19, 2022, 09:18:11 AM
It is amusing, and perhaps a bit pathetic, see guys like Mickelson and Hoffman generate over the top rationalizations for a pretty simple motivation.


It really makes me wonder a bit if Mickelson is in some degree of financial difficulty. He stands to gain ONLY money, while the reputational risk as well as a possible lifetime ban as an organizer, seems significant, at least to me.


For instance, I can imagine a day 20+ years down the road where Tiger is at ANGC as an honorary starter for the rest of his days. If Mickelson goes through with this, I have a hard time seeing him there on Thursday morning. ANGC can do as they please, but still…
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on February 19, 2022, 11:11:41 AM
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
\


Haven't yet heard of the Chinese deploying a team of chainsaw artists abroad to dismember a renown journalist for his dissident opinions, but perhaps I'm early?


This is little more than sheer $$$ grab by a handful of tour pros, most of whom are past their prime or just principle-lite. I'm quite sure they've got plans to pair themselves with US venues of similar philosophy. A match made in heaven. Have at it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: MCirba on February 19, 2022, 11:24:01 AM
Steve,

Perhaps they could have little chainsaws as tee markers?   
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 19, 2022, 11:26:26 AM
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.


No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.
\


Haven't yet heard of the Chinese deploying a team of chainsaw artists abroad to dismember a renown journalist for his dissident opinions, but perhaps I'm early?


This is little more than sheer $$$ grab by a handful of tour pros, most of whom are past their prime or just principle-lite. I'm quite sure they've got plans to pair themselves with US venues of similar philosophy. A match made in heaven. Have at it.


And the Chinese aren’t currently attempting coup of world golf. 


When I was a kid, my father rarely accepted the “what about…” defense for otherwise indefensible actions.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on February 19, 2022, 11:42:12 AM
Steve,

Perhaps they could have little chainsaws as tee markers?


With a bare-chested Aussie playing Paul Bunyan holding one!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Bernie Bell on February 19, 2022, 12:05:54 PM
Useful info for those genuinely interested.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Rogers on February 19, 2022, 01:31:10 PM
The various dictators and autocrats around the world have much of the international media conglomerates, prominent sports superstars & financial markets well pegged.


If the return on investment is good enough, then anything is tolerated.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 19, 2022, 01:45:28 PM
I am saddened by his selfish take and his blindness to human rights violations. It is as if he says, if I can make more money than I am ok with their poor human rights record.

No different than the NBA, Nike, Apple, NBC, etc. with the genocidal regime in China.  It's relatively easy to strike a pose when it's the Saudis, suddenly "more complicated" for athletes and other professionals when they're dealing with the world's second largest economy.


Bernie,

This is easy to say but a few counter points:

1)  I don't think its even possible to participate in society in the US and not buy at least some items made in China, even if you don't know it.  A few notable exceptions could be for those who live off the grid or something and never ever go to Walmart, Target, Home Depot, etc.

2)  I don't see any of those athletes lined up to actually play in a competing league in China, which would be the case for this new tour as I understand it with several mandatory events to be held in SA.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Bernie Bell on February 19, 2022, 02:44:09 PM
Kalen -
1/ You make my point.  It's easy to cast the stone when it's just a signal.  When it actually costs something, there's your test of principle.
2/  Take a close look at PGA China.  And turn on NBC right now to the Olympics.  I'm not defending Norman.  But if we're not applying the same yardstick to doing business with the Chinese, let's not pretend it's on principle.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 19, 2022, 02:47:51 PM
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether it’s in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individual’s right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who aren’t giving up anything to take their stand.


I have turned down repeated inquiries about projects in Saudi Arabia, because my family wouldn’t be comfortable with me working there, and I wouldn’t be comfortable sending my associates there.  Sure, the $ is tempting, and it would be easy to rationalize that Saudi people deserve good golf courses, too, and find someone who was happy to do most of the on site work on my behalf.  But if I’m not willing to go myself, I don’t think it’s ethical to do a workaround.


But, if I were comfortable doing so, who are you guys to police my choices?  What difference does it make whether I work for Saudi money or not, when it is all legitimized by the US government and financed by US banks?


If you want to protest the Saudi regime, tell the President not to kiss their ring, and that you’re willing to pay more for gasoline to stop propping them up.  And take your $$ out of the banks who do business with them.  Quit hiding behind a silly golf protest that won’t change anything about what’s going on over there, so that you don’t have to make any tough decisions that affect your own life.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 19, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether it’s in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individual’s right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who aren’t giving up anything to take their stand.


I have turned down repeated inquiries about projects in Saudi Arabia, because my family wouldn’t be comfortable with me working there, and I wouldn’t be comfortable sending my associates there.  Sure, the $ is tempting, and it would be easy to rationalize that Saudi people deserve good golf courses, too, and find someone who was happy to do most of the on site work on my behalf.  But if I’m not willing to go myself, I don’t think it’s ethical to do a workaround.


But, if I were comfortable doing so, who are you guys to police my choices?  What difference does it make whether I work for Saudi money or not, when it is all legitimized by the US government and financed by US banks?


If you want to protest the Saudi regime, tell the President not to kiss their ring, and that you’re willing to pay more for gasoline to stop propping them up.  And take your $$ out of the banks who do business with them.  Quit hiding behind a silly golf protest that won’t change anything about what’s going on over there, so that you don’t have to make any tough decisions that affect your own life.
Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I cop 100% to putting my own economic interests front and center; I buy Chinese goods, and I assume my bank does business with the Saudis. 

I see a very clear difference between the pros that simply say that they are going to take once-in-a-lifetime money, and guys like Mickelson and Hoffman who are concocting elaborate and over-the-top rationalizations for taking the money.
Where has Phil's outrage over the PGA Tour owning media rights been all these years?  He's 51, and has NEVER been shy about sharing his opinions.  He calls this a "once in a lifetime chance to remake the PGA Tour"; where's that been until now?  Hoffman said last week that he doesn't blame guys for leaving because he hit his ball in the water and then had a weird piece of bad luck afterwards.  Apparently he believes that the Saudi tour will NOT play by the Rules of Golf, or that he won't have to, or won't have bad luck there?  Gimme a break...
If you want (or need!) the money, then take it.  But have the onions to say so, instead of peeing on my leg and expecting me to believe you when you say it's raining.  That, in effect, is what Phil is doing, and that's MUCH more of a problem for me than the Saudis vs the Chinese, or what my bank is or isn't doing, or any of the rest of this.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim_Cronin on February 19, 2022, 04:34:21 PM
Meanwhile, you'll never guess who's in line to host some tournaments in the U.S.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/19/trump-saudi-arabia-golf/


But of course.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 19, 2022, 04:46:12 PM

Tom,I won't speak for others, but I do not take the position on Mickelson that you describe.
I cop 100% to putting my own economic interests front and center; I buy Chinese goods, and I assume my bank does business with the Saudis. 

I see a very clear difference between the pros that simply say that they are going to take once-in-a-lifetime money, and guys like Mickelson and Hoffman who are concocting elaborate and over-the-top rationalizations for taking the money.
Where has Phil's outrage over the PGA Tour owning media rights been all these years?  He's 51, and has NEVER been shy about sharing his opinions.  He calls this a "once in a lifetime chance to remake the PGA Tour"; where's that been until now?  Hoffman said last week that he doesn't blame guys for leaving because he hit his ball in the water and then had a weird piece of bad luck afterwards.  Apparently he believes that the Saudi tour will NOT play by the Rules of Golf, or that he won't have to, or won't have bad luck there?  Gimme a break...
If you want (or need!) the money, then take it.  But have the onions to say so, instead of peeing on my leg and expecting me to believe you when you say it's raining.  That, in effect, is what Phil is doing, and that's MUCH more of a problem for me than the Saudis vs the Chinese, or what my bank is or isn't doing, or any of the rest of this.


A.G.:


I haven't even read what Mickelson said, but I agree with your general view, which is why my first sentence read the way it did.


But I really don't give a crap what Phil Mickelson is doing, much less how he rationalizes it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on February 19, 2022, 05:56:44 PM
All of the sanctimony over these issues - whether it’s in favor of boycotting a country or in favor of the individual’s right to choose whether to take their money - is full of hypocrisy, but especially when it comes from people who aren’t giving up anything to take their stand.

Tom, very seldom do I comment on statements that are not about golf on this forum. Folks are entitled to speak to issues whether or not they have skin in the game. When folks refrain from commenting, evil has a better chance of succeeding. I agree that it is better to be actively involved and I commend you for refraining to work for the Saudis.  You do not know what I do or have done in the international scene. I do grow weary of your holier than thou attitude.
 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Bill Gayne on February 19, 2022, 07:04:47 PM
Deleted with repeat of previous post.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 19, 2022, 07:09:32 PM
"The PGA Tour announced to its membership Monday significant increases coming to its prize money and payout structures for the new year...Total tournament prize money next year will jump from $367 million to $427 million, according to the memo."

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-2022-prize-money

That's a 16% increase, comfortably greater than the estimated 6-8% inflation for the year.  This simplistic analysis does not account for the actual profitability of the tour, nor the percentage of money used for overhead and support salaries.

I checked the PGA official money leaders for 2020, plus a few other years for comparison.  In 2020, 124 golfers made over $1M in prize money.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.109.y2021.html

Most players have significant income from various endorsements, which is reported to be equal or greater to the prize money.

The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers, perhaps 3-5 times as much.  I'm just amazed at how much money is available to these athletes.  Willie Mays made $125k in 1967, the game's top salary.  That is 17.4 times the average household income of $7,200.  In 2019, the highest paid baseball player was pitcher Stephen Strausburg at $38.33M, which was 558 times higher than the average household income of $68,700.  (using Googled data)

I'm not trying too hard to make a point here.  I could, but it wouldn't be prudent.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 19, 2022, 07:15:48 PM
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on February 19, 2022, 09:09:36 PM
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.


Right.


According to reports I’ve read, the percentage of money going to the players is pretty close for the NBA, NFL and PGA Tour.


A.G.,


Regarding the Rules, Hoffman might like to know the Slugger White is the head rules official for the Saudi Tour and I am pretty sure he won’t be writing any new rules of play for them.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on February 19, 2022, 10:40:05 PM
Update, Trump courses: https://wapo.st/3sPrJqJ
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 19, 2022, 11:17:59 PM
This is a tough subject to dance around because it could easily devolve into an unhealthy political thread.  This subject makes me feel patriotic and supportive of our national golf tour, and the great American players who participate in our country.  It is so easy and effective to criticize imperfections, and there will always be forces trying to tear down the institutions with the most power.


JVB, thanks for the follow up.     
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 20, 2022, 01:01:15 AM
Tom D,

I agree with Tommy's comments.  How hard is it to actually turn down Saudi money, when according to your own comments over last 6 months, you already have more business than you can commit too?

As for the average joe who struggles month to month just to make ends meet, its often times far more difficult to take such stand when buying cheap Chinese goods is the only way to meet basic needs.

As John alluded to, many of the worlds problems lies not in the have nots wanting more, but in convincing those who have more than they can possibly spend in 100 lifetimes that they have enough.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on February 20, 2022, 06:42:34 AM
Useful info for those genuinely interested.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ (https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/)

Thanks Bernie for posting this, and here is Saudi Arabia - https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/saudi-arabia/

It led me to this amazing story, and Khashoggi's sons are better men than me, but perhaps I can do better:

Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers

“Thus, we, sons of the martyr Jamal Khashoggi, announce that we forgive those who killed our father — May he rest in peace — for the sake of God Almighty, hopefully seeking reward with the Almighty,” the statement added.


https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/sons-pardon-saudi-arabian-journalist-khashoggis-killers-1.71638261 (https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/sons-pardon-saudi-arabian-journalist-khashoggis-killers-1.71638261)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 20, 2022, 08:16:06 AM
   Clearly all the super rich people have more money than they need, and almost all of them crave more.  That’s fine; they’re allowed. But please, please, don’t complain your taxes are too high.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on February 20, 2022, 12:07:37 PM
   Clearly all the super rich people have more money than they need, and almost all of them crave more.  That’s fine; they’re allowed. But please, please, don’t complain your taxes are too high.


Why not? Do you like taxes?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Lou_Duran on February 20, 2022, 03:14:56 PM
The top 150 athletes in the major American sports make more than professional golfers
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.


Right.


According to reports I’ve read, the percentage of money going to the players is pretty close for the NBA, NFL and PGA Tour.


A.G.,


Regarding the Rules, Hoffman might like to know the Slugger White is the head rules official for the Saudi Tour and I am pretty sure he won’t be writing any new rules of play for them.


Perhaps Slugger might do better at marking the course.


Hoffman's incident is inexcusable and it happens more than on a rare occasion.  The rules, IMO, should be less about precedence and tradition and more about consistency and practice (what happens on the course).


As to Saudi Arabia, there is something in the Bible about casting the first stone.  We, on a regular basis, support the workings of any number of devils including some home-grown.  I have zero doubts that a good part of PM's motivation involves sticking it to the bureaucracy of the PGA Tour, the amount of total revenues it claims, and the perceived arrogance in its requirements of essentially independent contractors.  Competition is nearly always a good thing.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 20, 2022, 03:38:19 PM
Excellent comment, Lou.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 20, 2022, 05:26:35 PM
Mike:  Do I like taxes?  I like getting what I receive in return for paying them. Living in America.
  You might ask if I like paying for cars. I suppose I’d prefer not to, but cars cost money.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on February 20, 2022, 07:25:01 PM

Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers


Almost certainly coerced. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on February 21, 2022, 07:38:11 AM
Mike:  Do I like taxes?  I like getting what I receive in return for paying them. Living in America.
  You might ask if I like paying for cars. I suppose I’d prefer not to, but cars cost money.


Cars are priced efficiently. Taxes are not.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ben Sims on February 21, 2022, 09:07:54 AM
Coulda seen this one coming. Taxes…terrific. Only a few subjects are more touchy than saying #10 at Riviera is sort of, um…overrated, and that’s one of them. Well done fellas.


As for Phil. Whatever. Everyone likes sticking it to the man even if they’ve got more money than Croesus. That seems to be his end goal here. That he did it in an inefficient and arrogant way is vintage Phil. I’m unimpressed that some of these guys would embrace an offshoot venture from The Kingdom in order to make a point about their own home tour.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on February 22, 2022, 09:23:57 AM
It seems to me Phil has raised some legitimate concerns, namely the large amount of cash that is sitting in the PGA's bank, and the ownership of the media rights. He's obviously not blind to the deplorable human rights record of the Saudi's and it appears he is using them as leverage to make the PGA change it's ways with a view to him remaining on that tour.


That's how things work in the real world and how negotiation is largely done. I don't see anything unethical about that. Furthermore he appears to have been successful. I note that Rory has come out with some cutting remarks aimed at Phil but I do wonder if in due course he will privately thank Phil once he realises how he has benefitted.


As an aside, I've been to numerous professional golf events and there is no-one that I've seen who comes close to Phil in terms of engaging with the gallery or his playing partners, whether they be amateur or professional.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ian Mackenzie on February 22, 2022, 09:42:25 AM
This has been happening for years in pro sports. Why is anyone surprised?

It's just golf's turn now:

1. Bobby Hull gets lured to play for the Winnepeg Jets of the upstart "WHL" in 1972.
2. Doug Flutie and Hershel Walker get lured by some real estate developer to the New Jersey Generals of the upstart "USFL" in 1984 or 5.
3. I am not well-versed in the ABA, but I think Julius Irving did the same thing in the 70's.
4. Pele, Carlos Alberto, Giorgio Canaglia, Frans Beckenbauer and others get lured to the upstart US pro soccer league in the mid-1970's.
(Footnote: my younger brother was a ball boy for the New York Cosmos when they played at Yankee Stadium.)

What do they ALL have in common? They failed due to lack of fan interest.
This Saudi golf thing is no different.

Dumb money always chases incumbent successes.
In the end, the market always wins.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on February 22, 2022, 10:16:47 AM
The thing that I am most baffled by when it comes to Michelson is the scorched earth approach. He has always been pretty savvy when it comes to the media and governing bodies although more outspoken than most. He’s picked his battles with some controversy attached but nothing approaching the current situation. Depending on the way this thing shakes out it looks like he may get booted from the Tour as well as lose the captaincy of the 2025 USA Ryder Cup team. Those consequences along with the perception of him as a greedy sellout don’t seem to faze him now but I would think they will down the line. I wonder what happens to his status on the Senior Tour if he is persona non grata on the regular tour? Finally does anyone see his image changing for the better in the short to medium term?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 22, 2022, 10:24:26 AM
It seems to me Phil has raised some legitimate concerns, namely the large amount of cash that is sitting in the PGA's bank
That's PGA Tour, not PGA, and the cash reserves are both not nearly as big as Phil thinks they are, nor are they as big now since they helped fund the PGA Tour through the pandemic. That's what those reserves can be used to do - survive stuff like the pandemic while still putting on tournaments.

None of Phil's stated numbers are generally close. The Tour pays out a comparable portion of its revenues, not 26% like Phil claimed. Etc. He's full of shit on a lot of what he says. $2B in digital assets? How on earth does he arrive at that number? And do players own their images/video in other sports? No, because the league negotiates the terms of the TV deals (or teams do).

The list of BS from Phil goes on and on.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on February 22, 2022, 10:26:17 AM
Tim


Just to continue playing devil's advocate but if Phil shames the PGA into doing something with the large wedge of cash sitting in the bank, and they end up giving a large chunk of it to charity, who do you think will get some of the credit for that ?


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 22, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Just to continue playing devil's advocate but if Phil shames the PGA into doing something
Please stop saying PGA. That's an almost entirely different organization from the PGA Tour.

And please read up on the "pile of cash." You seem to be taking Phil's word for it, for some reason.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on February 22, 2022, 10:30:49 AM
Tim


Just to continue playing devil's advocate but if Phil shames the PGA into doing something with the large wedge of cash sitting in the bank, and they end up giving a large chunk of it to charity, who do you think will get some of the credit for that ?


Niall


Niall-I think the jury is out as to your question. It’s certainly possible that the scenario could play out as you outlined.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Hendren on February 22, 2022, 10:47:49 AM
It is not inconceivable that Phil is an idiot.


Bogey
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 22, 2022, 11:20:53 AM
  It’s inconceivable that he isn’t
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on February 22, 2022, 11:49:23 AM

As John alluded to, many of the worlds problems lies not in the have nots wanting more, but in convincing those who have more than they can possibly spend in 100 lifetimes that they have enough.


Kalen,


How much money is that? Use a guy living in California as an example. Round to the nearest 50 million without going over.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on February 22, 2022, 05:24:29 PM
Mickelson, Poulter, Westwood, Stenson and Scott are all old guys with only Scott being under 45. No shock that they could be looking for a guaranteed fat payday before their swan song on the PGA Tour.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on February 22, 2022, 05:32:08 PM
Mickelson just issued and apology but it was taken out of context...............
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: BHoover on February 22, 2022, 06:15:34 PM
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on February 22, 2022, 06:27:25 PM
This has been happening for years in pro sports. Why is anyone surprised?

It's just golf's turn now:

1. Bobby Hull gets lured to play for the Winnepeg Jets of the upstart "WHL" in 1972.

This one probably had a good result for Canada as it brought teams in Edmonton, Winnipeg (came, went and now back) and Quebec City (whoops) to the NHL.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 22, 2022, 07:10:38 PM
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.

Wow.  I feel like this is so harsh.  Welcome to punitive world.

In retrospect, I was kind of irritated this thread ever got started.  Mickelson shoots his mouth off a bit, and somebody sees a story.  The irresistible story gets shared on GCA, and some of us (including myself) are compelled to comment.  As hard as I try to say something sensible, I always feel a bit stupid afterwards.  The comments are polite, but it is impossible not to inject opinions about relevant politics and economics.  A few people get irritated by the comments, but this time it didn't escalate further.

I hate being yanked around by the tabloid nature of modern journalism.  The only reason I care whether KPMG dropped Phil Mickelson as a client is that I regret the original story was ever reported.  Can't we have more nice stories, and fewer efforts to exploit human shortcomings?  This is quite a price to pay for being a little cavalier and imprecise with his words.  It's sad that this hit piece strategy works so well.  I'm not biting next time.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on February 22, 2022, 07:45:58 PM
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.


https://www.golfchannel.com/video/phil-mickelson-apology-was-just-damage-control-says-brandel-chamble (https://www.golfchannel.com/video/phil-mickelson-apology-was-just-damage-control-says-brandel-chamblee)





























(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1379840234708463616/fh2jwzoP_normal.jpg)










Dan Rapaport@Daniel_RapaportOne thing a tour player said to me last week about Phil Mickelson, anonymously, has stuck with me. “This is nothing new. The world is just starting to see what we’ve known.”3:02 PM · Feb 22, 2022 (https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1496213803280830466)·Twitter for iPhone (https://help.twitter.com/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ben Attwood on February 23, 2022, 06:09:46 AM
Useful info for those genuinely interested.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ (https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/)


Thank you. I note that they do not do a report on the United States. For that, one could look at https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/united-states
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ben Attwood on February 23, 2022, 06:21:54 AM
There's a really interesting discussion to be had on the relationship between sports and politics in golf. However, the press really need to move past extremist soundbites. It would start by just an acknowledgement of the relationship that the USA has with Saudia Arabia, which has been extremely close if one were to look at it from an international security and oil perspective, nevermind the financial aspect.


The media around golf should set the current Saudi league discussions in this context and then people can start to really debate what is healthy or helpful. Sport has often been powerful in politics but pretty exclusively when considering human rights. When the debate is so heavily about money things are always going to be unclear politically.




Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on February 23, 2022, 07:54:50 AM
John,


If you're wishing the world were simply a better place, fine. But if you're insinuating Phil's actions through this should somehow be obscured, I don't think you've paid attention to them.


He proactively sought to undermine the PGA Tour with a regime that is exactly as he described to Shipnuk. His various rumored transgressions through the years have been largely kept under wraps, this one couldn't possibly be...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: archie_struthers on February 23, 2022, 07:57:36 AM
 8)


Shame for Phil that he got involved in this imbroglio. But he's always been outspoken so it's not a surprise. Really comes off badly though in this one as most people have trouble understanding his gripe about the money. He is supposedly worth close to half a billion , yikes !
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on February 23, 2022, 08:25:55 AM
John,


If you're wishing the world were simply a better place, fine. But if you're insinuating Phil's actions through this should somehow be obscured, I don't think you've paid attention to them.


He proactively sought to undermine the PGA Tour with a regime that is exactly as he described to Shipnuk. His various rumored transgressions through the years have been largely kept under wraps, this one couldn't possibly be...


John,


In general, I see the positives in sports in solving/supporting cross border-cross cultural exchanges. But Jim is spot on. Phil using Saudi Arabia to stick it to the PGA Tour was bad.


My Navy son was about to check into the building at NAS-Pensacola when a Saudi Airman shot and killed his USNA '19 classmate Ensign Josh Watson:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Pensacola_shooting


The Watson Family has been very constructive in their response, and they got put through a lot of "stuff". I don't want to get into cross border politics, but I do feel a personal obligation to keep Josh's memory alive over and above Phil's need to stick it to some PGA Tour people...


I was a fan of Phil, especially his PGA Major win recently, but it was a mistake. Seems like he is correcting it too, so I have no interest in burying him.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 23, 2022, 08:40:37 AM
Seems like he is correcting it too, so I have no interest in burying him.
It does?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Cliff Hamm on February 23, 2022, 08:49:03 AM
Wonder why it took him a week or so to reflect and apologize?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JMEvensky on February 23, 2022, 09:18:50 AM

Wonder why it took him a week or so to reflect and apologize?





Maybe his CPA and agent couldn't get in touch with him.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jeffwarne on February 23, 2022, 09:22:30 AM
Wonder why it took him a week or so to reflect and apologize?


he was hanging in a dungeon with his new Saudi friends
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 23, 2022, 09:49:36 AM
   Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on February 23, 2022, 10:00:47 AM
   Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.


He should be shown the door by the PGA. He needs some time away. Make it lifetime. Anyone think Tom Watson has a smile on his face. I’m amazed any of the Americans go there to play. Why is no one mentioning 911? They funded the terrorists.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on February 23, 2022, 10:39:40 AM
   Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.


Anyone thing Tom Watson has a smile on his face.


Schadenfreude is a dish best served cold!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on February 23, 2022, 11:16:35 AM
A strange cocktail of union busting and racism is being mixed for your pleasure.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on February 23, 2022, 11:32:02 AM
 8)  in regard to the wise stewards at the PGA, let us not forget the $40,000,000 PIP program in 2021 and Phil's twitter...

I’d like to thank all the crazies (and real supporters too) for………………… Helping me win the PiP!! To get the 2nd half of the money I have to add an event I haven’t played in awhile. See you in Kapalua P.S. I’ll try and find another hot controversial topic soon(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f44d.svg)

9:44 AM · Dec 29, 2021 (https://twitter.com/PhilMickelson/status/1476217635771670544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1476217635771670544%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-36557865202096403911.ampproject.net%2F2202042210001%2Fframe.html)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 23, 2022, 11:47:16 AM
John,


If you're wishing the world were simply a better place, fine. But if you're insinuating Phil's actions through this should somehow be obscured, I don't think you've paid attention to them.


He proactively sought to undermine the PGA Tour with a regime that is exactly as he described to Shipnuck. His various rumored transgressions through the years have been largely kept under wraps, this one couldn't possibly be...


Hi Jim,

Thanks for responding to my comments.  Mostly I'm mad at myself for taking the bait and offering my opinion at all.  I have no interest in obscuring this or knowing this.  After that, I wrote more explanations for about twenty minutes and then deleted them.




 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: BHoover on February 23, 2022, 11:57:02 AM
Mostly I'm mad at myself for taking the bait and offering my opinion at all.  I have no interest in obscuring this or knowing this.  After that, I wrote more explanations for about twenty minutes and then deleted them.


What bait? I posted that Phil lost his endorsement deal with KPMG. He lost said deal because of foolish and, well, insane comments he made.


At least you didn’t respond with some crazy rant about “cancel culture” or an incorrect interpretation of how the First Amendment actually operates with respect to speech.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on February 23, 2022, 12:18:09 PM
I think he just meant the bait of even entering into a gossip type conversation on here...which is fair and commendable. I find myself more drawn to these anymore, and am not too thrilled by it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kirk on February 23, 2022, 12:27:16 PM
Hi BHoover,

I actually meant the opening post and story was an irresistible topic.  But yeah, mostly this is an inner struggle to not say anything about subjects of this nature.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: astavrides on February 23, 2022, 12:32:26 PM
This is a golf course architecture forum, but it is also one of the only online forums that I know of with mostly smart people who have a wide variety of opinions on matters other than GCA. Most online forums are echo chambers or insult fests.
Constructive dialogue is one of the only ways to help solve problems and heal divides.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jeff Taylor on February 23, 2022, 03:58:41 PM
Great to see s many "Newbies" on this site.  :)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David Cronan on February 23, 2022, 05:07:17 PM
While most of the golf world seems offended, I imagine Patrick Reed is overjoyed at these developments.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jeffwarne on February 23, 2022, 05:30:03 PM
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: BHoover on February 23, 2022, 05:49:21 PM
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....


The least Greg Norman could do is send the Mickelson family a Christmas card…no doubt featuring a photo of a partially clothed Shark walking his dog on the beach.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on February 23, 2022, 06:07:28 PM
Hoo boy, KPMG is dropping Phil, effective immediately. That has to put a dent in Phil’s walking-around gambling money.

Wow.  I feel like this is so harsh.  Welcome to punitive world.

In retrospect, I was kind of irritated this thread ever got started.  Mickelson shoots his mouth off a bit, and somebody sees a story.  The irresistible story gets shared on GCA, and some of us (including myself) are compelled to comment.  As hard as I try to say something sensible, I always feel a bit stupid afterwards.  The comments are polite, but it is impossible not to inject opinions about relevant politics and economics.  A few people get irritated by the comments, but this time it didn't escalate further.

I hate being yanked around by the tabloid nature of modern journalism.  The only reason I care whether KPMG dropped Phil Mickelson as a client is that I regret the original story was ever reported.  Can't we have more nice stories, and fewer efforts to exploit human shortcomings?  This is quite a price to pay for being a little cavalier and imprecise with his words.  It's sad that this hit piece strategy works so well.  I'm not biting next time.


Mea culpa.  I started the thread simply by posting a link to a Washington Post article, without comment by me  I was curious whether it would take off and what course it might take.  Now I know.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Schott on February 23, 2022, 08:54:52 PM
   Phil may have learned that he can’t shoot someone on 5th Avenue and lose no support. His only apology was to the Saudis. I suspect the PGA views him as an insurrectionist and will deal with him accordingly. Because the PGA doles out punishment privately (see Dustin Johnson), we may not see Phil for a while with only Phil saying why.


He should be shown the door by the PGA. He needs some time away. Make it lifetime. Anyone think Tom Watson has a smile on his face. I’m amazed any of the Americans go there to play. Why is no one mentioning 911? They funded the terrorists.


The same reason the US Government continues to have a strong relationship with Saudi Arabia. Money, strategy and resources.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Daryl David on February 23, 2022, 09:03:13 PM
While most of the golf world seems offended, I imagine Patrick Reed is overjoyed at these developments.


Kind of like the old golf saying adjusted. “Every tweet makes someone happy”
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on February 23, 2022, 09:29:11 PM
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....


The least Greg Norman could do is send the Mickelson family a Christmas card…no doubt featuring a photo of a partially clothed Shark walking his dog on the beach.


You always bring it back to the Dick.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: BHoover on February 24, 2022, 08:24:48 AM
Doubt Phil is on Norman's Christmas list....

The least Greg Norman could do is send the Mickelson family a Christmas card…no doubt featuring a photo of a partially clothed Shark walking his dog on the beach.

You always bring it back to the Dick.


Keep drinking. How are you stocked for the weekend. It’s already Thursday and I’m worried you already may have put a dent in your weekend supply of booze. Better go buy more.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: ward peyronnin on February 24, 2022, 09:48:53 AM
This latest move by FIGJAM resurrected my opinion of him as a self absorbed mercenary sportsman generated in the lead up to the Oakland Hills Ryder Cup Hal Sutton captained.
I believed then, as i do now now, that PM's switch to new equipment mere days before the event contributed to the US teams rout. There is no way he could adjust his game in time and this was so patently a money grab over the best interest of the team. Definitely not a team building move

As they say do you see a pattern here?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Thomas Dai on February 24, 2022, 10:03:15 AM
Wonder which pros agents have been on the phone in the last few days offering their client as a suitable replacement golfer to wear a KPMG hat? Shock, horror, competitive world.
Atb


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David Bowen on February 24, 2022, 10:30:08 AM
More apt, which companies are on the phone to Phil's agent seeking space on his hat and shirt on the day he returns?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on February 24, 2022, 11:32:11 AM
More apt, which companies are on the phone to Phil's agent seeking space on his hat and shirt on the day he returns?


After calling them MFers I doubt it will be Saudi Air...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 24, 2022, 01:39:56 PM
8)  in regard to the wise stewards at the PGA, let us not forget the $40,000,000 PIP program in 2021 and Phil's twitter...

I’d like to thank all the crazies (and real supporters too) for………………… Helping me win the PiP!! To get the 2nd half of the money I have to add an event I haven’t played in awhile. See you in Kapalua P.S. I’ll try and find another hot controversial topic soon(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f44d.svg)

9:44 AM · Dec 29, 2021 (https://twitter.com/PhilMickelson/status/1476217635771670544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1476217635771670544%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-36557865202096403911.ampproject.net%2F2202042210001%2Fframe.html)


Steve,

I think this is most interesting sub-topic on this thread.  Given Phil has dominated basically every news cycle on every imaginable online platform this year, he's gotta be way out front to collect the top prize for 2022 as well.

Perhaps Phil was just chasing money, but either way if he does win it for 2022, the irony would be off the charts....
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on February 24, 2022, 01:56:01 PM
Kalen...it's clearly meant (and likely defined as) positive recognition.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on February 24, 2022, 06:35:09 PM
 8)  Kalen,


I couldn't resist, as I remembered that PM quote... I guess he found something!  The PIP after all is built on 5 objective criteria per the PGA:


1. Google searches: How many times a player’s name is searched for. Players will only receive credit for searches related to them, so Adam Scott won’t benefit simply from having the same name as the actor.

2.  Meltwater mentions: Tracks how often a player is mentioned across global media

3. MVP Index: A measure of a player’s reach on social media

4. Nielsen score: How often a player is featured on the television broadcast

5. Q-Score: A decades-old measure of an entity’s familiarity and appeal

[/size]Notably, none of the five criteria are directly related to a player’s on-course performance—although an in-form player will certainly be featured more often on broadcasts and in Google searches.

JIm is probably right and the PGA will likely nullify PM's stats as part of his suspension of being sent to the chair facing the room corner  to have a time out.

I'm almost surprised that one of the pros didn't walk out the door at their meeting with Monahan... now that would have been some PIP fodder!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 24, 2022, 07:07:04 PM
Steve,

Agreed, guessing there is fine print, but it would be amusing to say the least.

P.S.  I'd be curious how BDC and Brooks finished last year, given the vast majority of their online traffic was ongoing squabbles and ensuing Grudge Match.  While the PIP may be based in good intentions, it sure seems like its having more than a few unintended consequences.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Salmen on February 26, 2022, 10:04:39 PM
.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kevin_Reilly on February 26, 2022, 11:14:46 PM
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.


Steve, please explain how the First Amendment applies in this situation.  Thanks.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 27, 2022, 01:02:59 PM
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.

Steve, please explain how the First Amendment applies in this situation.  Thanks.

Phil certainly had his First Amendment right to say what he felt, but his sponsors also retained their rights to do business with him...or not...via their mutually agreed upon contract.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: PThomas on February 27, 2022, 01:09:21 PM
This is another example of exercising First Amendment rights and getting cancelled. Par for the course.

Steve, please explain how the First Amendment applies in this situation.  Thanks.

Phil certainly had his First Amendment right to say what he felt, but his sponsors also retained their rights to do business with him...or not...via their mutually agreed upon contract.


exactly right Kalen....some people bitch about "cancel culture", when it's simply people responding to others as is they're right
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on February 27, 2022, 01:42:08 PM
 8)  So the take-away question is, will Alan Shipnuck's book on Phil be a hit or miss or foul ball.  After all, he's now wondering why companies are abandoning PM ( https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/im-surprised-all-these-companies-are-fleeing-phil-shipnuck) . 


The timing of his release of these "excerpts" certainly was calculated... :o  seems AS may be amongst the scary ones going forward to be dealt with.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on February 27, 2022, 05:19:51 PM
8)  So the take-away question is, will Alan Shipnuck's book on Phil be a hit or miss or foul ball.  After all, he's now wondering why companies are abandoning PM ( https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/im-surprised-all-these-companies-are-fleeing-phil-shipnuck (https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/im-surprised-all-these-companies-are-fleeing-phil-shipnuck)) . 


The timing of his release of these "excerpts" certainly was calculated... :o  seems AS may be amongst the scary ones going forward to be dealt with.


  I count Alan as a good friend.  He's long been a respected golf scribe and has been open about working on this book for over two years, and it actually went to the editors months ago. All of this was done without the explicit approval of Phil (who didn't want to cooperate for quite a long time). Phil's known of it's doing since its inception as well.


  Being a curious and persistent golf journalist, Alan contacted Phil after the story broke about the Saudi League's "signing several PGA Tour players." If you recall, Phil had already spoken up (albeit misinformed) about the Tour's "ownership of player's media & video rights." Only after this did Phil then call Alan and fully volunteer his proactive involvement with Greg Norman in trying to "write the leagues rules." He was "proud" to reveal his effort to "turn the leverage back onto the Tour!" In effect, he'd elevated himself to a role no one had elected him to represent.

  Who knows if the book will be a "hit or a miss or foul ball, " but it certainly won't hurt sales of the it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 27, 2022, 05:31:56 PM
  I’ll read it
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike_Trenham on February 27, 2022, 08:42:51 PM
  I’ll read it


I’ve preordered it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on February 28, 2022, 01:36:50 AM
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.  It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.  It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it.  i.e. it changes their life.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on February 28, 2022, 06:59:24 AM
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.  It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.  It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it.  i.e. it changes their life.


Good for you. Gossip is like sex. Losers pay for it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on February 28, 2022, 07:19:48 AM
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.  It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.  It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it.  i.e. it changes their life.


Peter,


   Your opinion is a very reasonable one, however there are understandable reasons for why authors pursue, albeit unauthorized, living subjects. All too often the public interest in the lives of a wide spectrum of interesting people is quite strong and for positive reasons. From sportspeople through to Supreme Court justices, our world is full of very inspirational stories that captivate and encourage readers to follow similar paths and/or learn from their life stories. Both a literary and figurative connection can be made between the reader and subject that doesn't always have the same allure post-mortem. Authorization isn't always available (think SCOTUS) nor feasible (a fascinating CEO whose Board doesn't desire it).


   Unfortunately in today's information age, controversial subjects attract and often generate even more controversy and ultimately our media system act like moths attracted to a flame. John may be right, yet as usual, uses the wrong metaphor. Substitute "marketing" for sex.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 28, 2022, 07:58:17 AM
I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.
Are you also against all news articles that are unauthorized? Because this isn't all that different. More below.

It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.
Alan is a reporter, and here's where things are things are the same as the news stuff above: they still have to get sources. They still have to verify things, or report who said what. If Billy Walters is quoted as saying "Phil did this" and Phil didn't do that, his issue isn't with Alan, it's with Billy. And Alan likely also double- or triple-sourced that, even though the one hardest hitting quote might come from Billy. (Or whatever.)

It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it.  i.e. it changes their life.
Phil's life is already "changed" because he's a public figure. He's not exactly shied away from publicity.

And Alan asked Phil to be involved repeatedly. Phil, until he called, chose not to be involved. That's a choice he made.

Did you object to the Tiger biography from the investigative reporters. I did, but only after the fact because the book got many basic facts wrong, and because I've grown up in the Tiger era, I didn't learn much new. That won't be the case with the Phil book, from what I hear. But I had no issue with them writing it. I only wish it had been better.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 28, 2022, 08:00:18 AM
   Not liking the concept of “unauthorized biographies” seems odd to me. Publishing only what living persons want you to hear seems authoritarian to me.  Freedom of the press exists in the Constitution because the press is pretty much all that stand’s between democracy and autocracy. That’s why the press is the only occupation protected in the Constitution. The statement the the press is “the enemy of the people” is pretty much as authoritarian as one can get.
  Sorry for the liberal high horse tone of this and it’s way off topic content, but I believe freedom of the press is a very much misunderstood constitutional right.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 28, 2022, 09:08:53 AM
I can't imagine that an authorized biography, or an autobiography for that matter, of Phil Mickelson would be of much interest; good or bad, I don't think there is much disagreement about his ability and willingness to present a sanitized public image. His widely known propensity for gambling alone would sort of guarantee that. 

I love to read, but I rarely read a biography of any type, and when I do, it is likely to be a "historical" figure; authors of those have the advantage of perspective AND of not worrying that the subject will be offended or litigious.  But if I was going to read about Phil Mickelson, I can't imagine that anything other than an "unauthorized" version of his life would have any real value.

I read a story earlier this morning in which Shipnuck says that not only did Mickelson call him, rather than the other way around, and then provided the quotes about the Saudi league that have proven to be Phil's undoing, but that at NO time was there a request, much less an agreement, for the conversation to be off the record. 

It is one of my core beliefs that as we age, we are likely to become a more extreme version of whatever we are, rather than moderate our habits and tendencies.  Mickelson seems to have always believed that he is the smartest guy in the room, and this time, it has done him in.  The Saudis aren't to blame for that, nor is Shipnuck, nor is the Tour.  Just Phil...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on February 28, 2022, 10:47:34 AM
I wonder what the preamble was to Phil's phone call ? He clearly didn't just randomly pick a journalist to pick up a phone to to have a chat. The journalist had previously made approaches to Phil regarding the bio he was writing and I wonder what promises he might have made about quoting him ? Regardless of that, what is the etiquette for journalists in reporting private conversations ?


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on February 28, 2022, 10:59:59 AM
   I believe the etiquette is: unless otherwise specifically stated, everything is on the record. Whether the subject appreciates this is another question. I don’t think it is common practice for the journalist to read the subject his rights.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 28, 2022, 11:03:07 AM
I wonder what the preamble was to Phil's phone call ? He clearly didn't just randomly pick a journalist to pick up a phone to to have a chat. The journalist had previously made approaches to Phil regarding the bio he was writing and I wonder what promises he might have made about quoting him ? Regardless of that, what is the etiquette for journalists in reporting private conversations ?


Niall
Here are the pertinent excerpts from Shipnuck's comments after Mickelson made the claim that the conversation was off the record. 

“He knew I was working on a book about him and asked to speak, saying he wanted to discuss media rights and his grievances with the PGA Tour, both of which inevitably lead back to Saudi Arabia. If the subject of a biography phones the author, the content of that conversation is always going to inform the book, unless it is expressly agreed otherwise."

“Not once in our texts or when we got on the phone did Mickelson request to go off-the-record and I never consented to it; if he had asked, I would have pushed back hard, as this was obviously material I wanted for the book,” Shipnuck wrote. “Mickelson simply called me up and opened a vein. To claim now that the comments were off-the-record is false and duplicitous.”
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on February 28, 2022, 11:20:57 AM
   I believe the etiquette is: unless otherwise specifically stated, everything is on the record. Whether the subject appreciates this is another question. I don’t think it is common practice for the journalist to read the subject his rights.


Thanks AG


Jim


That was what I was basically getting at. So the onus is on Phil Mickelson to look after himself rather than the journalist having any professional duty of care as they might in other professions. Not sure if that is the appropriate phrase but hopefully you know what I mean.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on February 28, 2022, 02:12:04 PM
Too many "authorized" biographies are just hagiographies that don't reveal anything about the subject except what he or she wants to push out there.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on February 28, 2022, 02:45:11 PM
What will leak now to keep interest up? Will MJ be exposed? Cuckle doodle do, we have a best seller.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on February 28, 2022, 03:29:37 PM
What will leak now to keep interest up? Will MJ be exposed? Cuckle doodle do, we have a best seller.


Barney,

Its hard to predict, but assuredly there is always something next...the machine must be fed.

P.S.  Jim Coleman had it exactly right a few posts back.  If "authorized" biographies or reporting are all we got, then Lord help us all....which is sadly more acutely evident now than ever.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on February 28, 2022, 07:07:59 PM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 28, 2022, 07:50:33 PM
That was what I was basically getting at. So the onus is on Phil Mickelson to look after himself rather than the journalist having any professional duty of care as they might in other professions. Not sure if that is the appropriate phrase but hopefully you know what I mean.
His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on February 28, 2022, 08:06:25 PM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.


Wayne, I take your point, and I’m always disturbed by what seem to be situational ethics. But I think we overcomplicate this if we look at what the various sponsors have done as anything other than simple business decisions. Really, this is not very much about the Saudis at all.


To me, there seems to me to be a clear difference for companies who want an ongoing sponsorship presence on the PGA Tour between guys that have simply gone there to play vs a guy who is admittedly involved in organizing a tour in competition with the PGA Tour.  One way or the other, Mickelson will be leaving the scene on the PGA Tour, whether it’s because he’s 51, or because the Tour boots him. His former sponsors are just getting out in front of that; it’s a business decision.


Palmer and Nicklaus, among others, remained marketable as elder statesmen and ambassadors of the game and thr Tour; it appears Phil will not.


Actions have consequences, even if you’re Phil Mickelson. I have ZERO idea what he was thinking, or what he thought would come of it, but I don’t find the decisions of the companies that have dropped him to be hard to understand, or in any way conflicted.


Mickelson screwed up in a big way, and he’s paying a big price.  It’s just business.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 01, 2022, 07:52:20 AM
That was what I was basically getting at. So the onus is on Phil Mickelson to look after himself rather than the journalist having any professional duty of care as they might in other professions. Not sure if that is the appropriate phrase but hopefully you know what I mean.
His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.


Erik


In my experience most professions these days have tightened up on ethics and wondered whether journalism had any guidelines but then not sure if it is regulated they way other professionals are. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any such rules/regulations/guidelines but if there were I wonder what a duty of care to the reader/listener might comprise ? I'm assuming it doesn't actually exist but is something you probably think should happen. Would that be wrong ?


Niall 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 01, 2022, 08:12:32 AM
Thinking about this overnight, I was imagining Callaway equipment ads featuring Mickelson airing during PGA Tour events. 


Sort of hard to picture, isn’t it? 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 01, 2022, 08:17:44 AM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.


Wayne, I take your point, and I’m always disturbed by what seem to be situational ethics. But I think we overcomplicate this if we look at what the various sponsors have done as anything other than simple business decisions. Really, this is not very much about the Saudis at all.


To me, there seems to me to be a clear difference for companies who want an ongoing sponsorship presence on the PGA Tour between guys that have simply gone there to play vs a guy who is admittedly involved in organizing a tour in competition with the PGA Tour.  One way or the other, Mickelson will be leaving the scene on the PGA Tour, whether it’s because he’s 51, or because the Tour boots him. His former sponsors are just getting out in front of that; it’s a business decision.



It is undoubtedly a business decision by the sponsors but no doubt one where they are happy to look as though they are taking the moral high-ground. If it really was to do with being associated with the Saudis then they would have stopped their sponsorship deals when he and others played in Saudi as Wayne says.


What is surprising to me, and perhaps I'm interpreting the phone conversation wrongly, is that everyone is criticising Phil for looking to set up a rival tour when from my reading of the situation he is actually looking to use the possibility of a rival tour to improve his position with the existing tour. It seems clear to me he is playing one off against the other with the intention of staying on the existing tour having improved the terms of his working arrangement. Basically he's using the Saudi's as leverage. That seems a pretty standard way of going about negotiating a business transaction.


In my view he and the other players are more morally wrong actually playing in Saudi than he is trying to use them as leverage in his negotiations with the tour. Bear in mind also that if successful he would have improved the lot of other players and not just him. I can't help but think that the negative reaction from other players towards Phil is more about an accumulation of things rather than this one situation.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 01, 2022, 08:44:05 AM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.


Wayne, I take your point, and I’m always disturbed by what seem to be situational ethics. But I think we overcomplicate this if we look at what the various sponsors have done as anything other than simple business decisions. Really, this is not very much about the Saudis at all.


To me, there seems to me to be a clear difference for companies who want an ongoing sponsorship presence on the PGA Tour between guys that have simply gone there to play vs a guy who is admittedly involved in organizing a tour in competition with the PGA Tour.  One way or the other, Mickelson will be leaving the scene on the PGA Tour, whether it’s because he’s 51, or because the Tour boots him. His former sponsors are just getting out in front of that; it’s a business decision.



It is undoubtedly a business decision by the sponsors but no doubt one where they are happy to look as though they are taking the moral high-ground. If it really was to do with being associated with the Saudis then they would have stopped their sponsorship deals when he and others played in Saudi as Wayne says.


What is surprising to me, and perhaps I'm interpreting the phone conversation wrongly, is that everyone is criticising Phil for looking to set up a rival tour when from my reading of the situation he is actually looking to use the possibility of a rival tour to improve his position with the existing tour. It seems clear to me he is playing one off against the other with the intention of staying on the existing tour having improved the terms of his working arrangement. Basically he's using the Saudi's as leverage. That seems a pretty standard way of going about negotiating a business transaction.


In my view he and the other players are more morally wrong actually playing in Saudi than he is trying to use them as leverage in his negotiations with the tour. Bear in mind also that if successful he would have improved the lot of other players and not just him. I can't help but think that the negative reaction from other players towards Phil is more about an accumulation of things rather than this one situation.


Niall
Niall, where have Phil's criticisms of the Tour over media rights and the rest been all these years?  Have you ever heard him even mention this before, ever?  Or anybody else mention it, for that matter?  Not only none of the current stars, but not Arnie, not Jack, and not Tiger, none of whom ever seemed averse to making money, and each of whom had far more to gain from "owning" their own media rights than Phil would.  Did you ever hear ANYBODY make these complaints about the Tour owning media rights?

Maybe the simplest reason is the actual reason for what Mickelson is doing; he wants big money.  That isn't a palatable thing for a guy who has earned nearly a billion dollars to say out loud, so the other stuff is the "sanitized" version that he hoped would play with the sponsors and the public. 

I've got to say that I find a guy who has made the kind of money Phil has made as a member of the PGA Tour claiming that he's doing this for "leverage" to be just absurd.  He has never lacked for the ability to say and do crazy stuff, but this takes the cake.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 01, 2022, 09:13:48 AM
AG


To be clear, I'm saying he is doing it for leverage, not Phil. But it does seem fairly clear to me that is what he is doing. In the phone conversation IIRC he says that he actually wants the Saudi tour to fail. He also talks about what he wants out of the PGA tour so his objectives seem clear to me.


Are his actions any different to that of an agent acting on behalf of a top footballer or basketball player ? For instance how much money did Michael Jordan make out of Nike or his team and did that stop his agent looking to exploit new angles and from trying to obtain the best deal they could ?


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on March 01, 2022, 09:24:20 AM
Niall, in attempting to organize and recruit for the Saudi Tour, he directly undermines the PGA Tour. Are you suggesting, had he been more successful in his recruiting efforts, that he would have gotten to the finish line and turned down a guaranteed payday from the Saudis to stay on the PGA Tour?


I don't think Phil would believe that if you laid it in front of him...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 01, 2022, 09:37:58 AM
Jim


Who knows what decision he would have ultimately made in that scenario but then would the tour be offering the additional money for moving the needle if it wasn't for the threat of a competing tour ?


As I think Lou said Phil is basically an independent operator who is trying to do the best for himself. My interpretation of his comments are that his preferred outcome was to get his wishes with the existing tour and for the Saudi tour to fail but who's to say that if the existing tour didn't back down and that the Saudi's got their tour up and running that he might have ended up playing there (along with any number of other players hanging onto his coat-tails)


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 01, 2022, 09:38:23 AM
In my experience most professions these days have tightened up on ethics and wondered whether journalism had any guidelines but then not sure if it is regulated they way other professionals are.
Nothing Alan did here was "unethical." Implying such is a bad look.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any such rules/regulations/guidelines but if there were I wonder what a duty of care to the reader/listener might comprise?
To tell the truth. To be honest. He says it himself: he had an obligation to the reader.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 01, 2022, 09:48:22 AM
What is surprising to me, and perhaps I'm interpreting the phone conversation wrongly, is that everyone is criticising Phil for looking to set up a rival tour when from my reading of the situation he is actually looking to use the possibility of a rival tour to improve his position with the existing tour. It seems clear to me he is playing one off against the other with the intention of staying on the existing tour having improved the terms of his working arrangement. Basically he's using the Saudi's as leverage. That seems a pretty standard way of going about negotiating a business transaction.
He went well above and beyond that, Niall.

AG, good take.

As I think Lou said Phil is basically an independent operator who is trying to do the best for himself. My interpretation of his comments are that his preferred outcome was to get his wishes with the existing tour and for the Saudi tour to fail but who's to say that if the existing tour didn't back down and that the Saudi's got their tour up and running that he might have ended up playing there (along with any number of other players hanging onto his coat-tails)

He was an independent contractor 10 years ago, and 20 years ago, too.

Now that his time on the PGA Tour is basically over, and his relevance is basically non-existent (I think Phil winning a few Champions Tour events and seeing how few people even seemed to notice or care hastened this too), he's trying to scoop up all the money he can.

He's desperate, and so he rationalized getting into bed with the Saudis (make no mistake: he's taken millions of dollars from them) and tries to SPIN it as "leverage." It's all bullshit. It's all spin. He made up bullshit numbers re: the PGA Tour's nest egg, their "digital asset worth," the % of revenue paid out to players, all of it.


It's all spin and BS.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 01, 2022, 10:23:58 AM
Phil isn't who many thought he was:

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)

"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 01, 2022, 11:43:31 AM
"relevance is basically non-existent (I think Phil winning a few Champions Tour events and seeing how few people even seemed to notice or care hastened this too), he's trying to scoop up all the money he can."

He is the defending PGA Champion, hes also not a good guy. That's never been a secret. The golly gee wiz act is and always has been an act. I'm surprised KPMG didn't dump him after he pled the 5th on insider trading.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on March 01, 2022, 12:06:52 PM
“I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."


What’s the point of Shipnuck’s statement above? I guess it’s to pile on and intimate that Mickelson is an even bigger dbag than he’s already suggested? I won’t argue that everything that’s out there so far is fair game but that sentence serves no other purpose than to stir things up even more.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on March 01, 2022, 12:19:35 PM
Phil isn't who many thought he was:

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)

"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.

PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on March 01, 2022, 12:28:55 PM
Phil isn't who many thought he was:

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)

"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.

PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.


Peter-You said it better than I did.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 01, 2022, 01:47:28 PM
I'm still trying to understand the narrative of how Phil was allegedly trying to gain leverage.

If he had kept it all under wraps and worked behind the scenes to do recruiting and say "you got X amount of guys who are going to leave if you don't make changes" is one thing.  But to publicly criticize the Tour in often brutal fashion is sure-fire to make quick enemies and counter-productive to getting something done.

The one that does make sense is, Phil will be 52 in a few months, his PGA Tour reign is basically done. It was a massive cash grab as Normans foot soldier/right hand man, because sure as shit he'll never sniff anything like that with the PGA Tour.  He took a risk, it back-fired, and the piper is coming to collect.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on March 01, 2022, 02:13:41 PM
Phil isn't who many thought he was:

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)

"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.

PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.


Before he said that his duty was only to the truth and that he had no allegiance to Phil.  But now he's saying that he's protecting Phil and burying information that would be damaging. 

So according to him, the ethics of protecting a subject and others outweighs his obligation to the truth and the opportunity for profit. 

What would be a term for someone assembling damaging information on a person with a lot to lose, letting that person know that they have it, and then holding the information? 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike_Trenham on March 01, 2022, 02:14:08 PM
I don't understand why reporters are not pointing out that Phil's focus on Media Rights is due to the fact that over the next number of years this is his biggest potential source of additional income. 


Tripping the weekly purses will do little good for Phil based on his play since the PGA Championship and the historical winnings of players post age 50.


I wish I could find the article from around 1990 when Al Barkow pointed out it was all an act, he saw right through him.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jeffwarne on March 01, 2022, 02:18:27 PM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.


I don't think it's about the Saudis at all.
Many/most of his sponsors do business there, as do many of his peers.
It's about bashing the hand that fed him for 30 lucrative years, and personally bashing its Commissioner, then turning around and bashing the tour/sponsoring country that you admit using for leverage against your own tour.
Regardless of his intentions, the sponsors came to the conclusion that their dollars might be spent better elsewhere.Quite an easy decision given that Phil gave them the option.
Phil gave them the option and they made a decision.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 01, 2022, 03:51:27 PM
In my experience most professions these days have tightened up on ethics and wondered whether journalism had any guidelines but then not sure if it is regulated they way other professionals are.
Nothing Alan did here was "unethical." Implying such is a bad look.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any such rules/regulations/guidelines but if there were I wonder what a duty of care to the reader/listener might comprise?
To tell the truth. To be honest. He says it himself: he had an obligation to the reader.


Erik


I'm not implying but I am asking the question. And if implying isn't a good look then AS isn't looking too clever in that link you posted. From those comments you could argue he maybe doesn't quite live up to the lofty ideals that you espouse. Just look at his comments on the journalists and broadcasters who cover the Masters and I assume he is in that number.


BTW you didn't answer my question on whether your "duty of care" reference was your own ideal of what a duty of care would be or whether it was an agreed and recognised standard in the world of journalism. I'd be interested to know.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on March 01, 2022, 05:00:33 PM
I somehow think there is more to the story for all these long time sponsors to drop him so suddenly.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 01, 2022, 06:13:49 PM
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'?
Or maybe… because it's the truth?


and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud.
That's not really true. Look at Twitter. Phil still has plenty of fans and supporters.


Before he said that his duty was only to the truth and that he had no allegiance to Phil.  But now he's saying that he's protecting Phil and burying information that would be damaging.
I read it as protecting others who aren't the public figure Phil is. If it was just going to be about and affect Phil, I think it'd have made it into the book.

For example, if something would damage the life of one of Phil's children, who didn't choose to be public figures, he'd weigh that quite differently than information about Phil.


From those comments you could argue he maybe doesn't quite live up to the lofty ideals that you espouse.

I haven't talked about "the ideals I espouse."


BTW you didn't answer my question on whether your "duty of care" reference was your own ideal of what a duty of care would be or whether it was an agreed and recognised standard in the world of journalism. I'd be interested to know.

I did. The "duty of care" is to the truth and the audience. Sometimes journalists will weigh that against other factors (brevity, how it affects people who aren't in the public eye, their own career goals and aspirations, etc.).

His "duty of care" to Phil Mickelson is to get the truth. And much of it is positive. Some of it is negative.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on March 01, 2022, 06:21:23 PM
  Totally agree, Eric. But I think Shipnuck would have been better off not saying anything about what isn’t in the book. Sort of trying to have it both ways.  I think he probably lost his temper a bit.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 01, 2022, 06:26:43 PM
  Totally agree, Eric. But I think Shipnuck would have been better off not saying anything about what isn’t in the book. Sort of trying to have it both ways.  I think he probably lost his temper a bit.

Agreed Jim,

I'm guessing he said it because he's feeling counter-attacked and it'd be tough to show restraint and not lash back. And at this point I'd be far more liable to trust him over Phil anyways...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on March 01, 2022, 06:53:28 PM
Phil isn't who many thought he was:

https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/ (https://firepitcollective.com/askalan-mickelson-edition-part-ii/)

"For the smattering of Twitter trolls who have accused me of trying to “ruin” Mickelson, I will just say that I am in possession of some incredibly damaging information about Phil that I have elected not to put in the book because it is highly personal and would cause pain to too many people."
What a rat-fink thing to say, and for what -- merely because "a smattering" of folks disagree with his 'narrative'? "Oh, I could tell you what insiders *really* think about Shipnuk, as a person and a so-called sports journalist, but I won't, as it would only be devastatingly hurtful to his wife and family". Ugh. He had his 'story' already -- one that just about anyone who matters has already fully embraced, no matter how smug, sanctimonious and self-serving it is; and PM is already pretty much being universally pilloried as a morally bankrupt fraud. You would've thought AS could've been a big enough man to now take a bit of the high road here instead of piling on with the malicious innuendo; but I suppose that's too much to ask in this thin-skinned world, where if you don't have PM's money you can still have his ego.

PS - just saw Tim's post, where he said it more clearly.

The entire scenario is dirty business all round. So many mealy mouthed bastards with their snouts in the trough. The only thing separating Phil and the others is they keep their mouths shut. The idea of sport washing is a joke. The Olympics were just held in China! If we are getting serious about Saudi Arabia it's time to look in the mirror.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 01, 2022, 07:25:39 PM
By leaking what not is in the book the value of the movie rights grow. The author has a hold card.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 01, 2022, 07:32:17 PM
  Totally agree, Eric. But I think Shipnuck would have been better off not saying anything about what isn’t in the book. Sort of trying to have it both ways.  I think he probably lost his temper a bit.
Yeah, hey, I don't love that little bit at all. If it's not in the book, don't talk about it.

He also said what's in the book is an 8.5 out of 10 in terms of "explosiveness." So… we'll find out in May.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 01, 2022, 07:51:36 PM
Now that Phil is a villain we can sleep more comfortably after reading about his personal demons. Can you imagine the joy of being seated in a plane and your seatmate has this same book? Fasten you seatbelts it's an 8.5 out of 10. It could be a water landing cause it's getting juicy. You wouldn't want the flight to end.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on March 01, 2022, 08:04:53 PM
Sean - thank you, for being the only one to get to the heart of this topic/issue/story.
With the p.r. coming from corporations and journalists and fellow tour pros being cast as a message from Mother Teresa rather than the voice of naked self-interest, I was starting to feel quite depressed; to me, there's a profound cynicism inherent in all the public grandstanding, and the scapegoating that goes with it.   

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 02, 2022, 12:26:42 PM
Sean,

It may just be coincidence, but US viewership for this years Olympics were the lowest in decades.  I didn't tune in for any events personally, but from what I read there were several embarrassing issues and problems that plagued it.  Ditto for the Saudi golf tournament, never tuned in, although I admit I saw the final winning putt on SportsCenter...



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: V. Kmetz on March 02, 2022, 07:41:42 PM
Perhaps FIGJAM has just been getting the jump on 2022's Player Impact Awards... it's a bitch that for all his bullshit, winning the PGA at 50, he STILL can't beat Woods in a leg cast...he can dry his tears on that 6 million, which it seems basically given for being a controversial asshole on/off the course...


https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/03/02/tiger-woods-tops-player-impact-program-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html

I invite you to read the entirety of the brief article... this program is exactly how we've lost the plot...in everything. Read the 7th graph...after the criteria...about how Woods was certain to lead in two of them, yet they were "surprised" that he had so much earned media (unique news articles...another lackey bullshit making machine, now just a fly dick above FB posts).

It's all puffery and bullshit... now quality of play and character is last and second to last...


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 02, 2022, 11:15:49 PM
Perhaps FIGJAM has just been getting the jump on 2022's Player Impact Awards... it's a bitch that for all his bullshit, winning the PGA at 50, he STILL can't beat Woods in a leg cast...he can dry his tears on that 6 million, which it seems basically given for being a controversial asshole on/off the course...


https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/03/02/tiger-woods-tops-player-impact-program-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html (https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/03/02/tiger-woods-tops-player-impact-program-pip-phil-mickelson-finsihes-second.html)

I invite you to read the entirety of the brief article... this program is exactly how we've lost the plot...in everything. Read the 7th graph...after the criteria...about how Woods was certain to lead in two of them, yet they were "surprised" that he had so much earned media (unique news articles...another lackey bullshit making machine, now just a fly dick above FB posts).

It's all puffery and bullshit... now quality of play and character is last and second to last...


I've been at your table buddy. Chew on that anger. Damn I miss it so.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on March 03, 2022, 11:47:24 AM
I still think there is more to this story than what I've read so far for all his sponsors to drop him like a hot potato. He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour. Exactly what is done in many other sports by union officials on behalf of their players. He told the truth about the Saudi's. He told the truth about the pga. Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn. He was just telling the truth of what many players think. What happened to free speech? The punishment doesn't fit this crime, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 03, 2022, 12:23:39 PM
He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour.
Except he wasn't. He was trying to cash in and figured "I was just trying to make the PGA Tour better" sounded the best.

He told the truth about the pga.
No, he didn't. He got almost every bit of "data" he said about the PGA Tour wrong, often grossly so.

Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn.
Those sports are significantly more popular/earn quite a bit more money than golf.

What happened to free speech?
He wasn't arrested for his free speech, and nobody impaired his right to it.

Free speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without consequences.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech_2x.png)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 03, 2022, 03:28:42 PM
I still think there is more to this story than what I've read so far for all his sponsors to drop him like a hot potato. He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour. Exactly what is done in many other sports by union officials on behalf of their players. He told the truth about the Saudi's. He told the truth about the pga. Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn. He was just telling the truth of what many players think. What happened to free speech? The punishment doesn't fit this crime, in my humble opinion.


Is Callaway supposed to run commercials featuring Mickelson during PGA Tour events? This seems to me to be a VERY simple business decision for the companies.


As has been pointed out, the constitutional right of free speech was/is intended primarily to protect political speech from government censorship or retribution.  This is NOT a free speech issue, but the simple fact is that Mickelson is in the stew because of unfettered free speech. What we say has consequences. Whether or not what Mickelson said is true isn’t even really the issue, though the consensus seems to be that much of it was not.


The issue, if there is even is one, is really whether or not companies who want a presence on the PGA Tour should give millions to a guy who is admittedly trying to organize a rival tour. Doing so, at least in my mind, would be a firing offense for a CEO or marketing VP.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 04, 2022, 05:09:09 AM
I still think there is more to this story than what I've read so far for all his sponsors to drop him like a hot potato. He was trying to set the table for a negotiation with the pga tour. Exactly what is done in many other sports by union officials on behalf of their players. He told the truth about the Saudi's. He told the truth about the pga. Look at the salaries in football and baseball, they are many times what pro golfers earn. He was just telling the truth of what many players think. What happened to free speech? The punishment doesn't fit this crime, in my humble opinion.


Cary


I see it pretty much the same way and have said as much. The only thing I'd quibble about is your comment regarding punishment fitting the crime. There is no crime and no-one, least of all Phil it seems, can compel the tour to do a deal. Ironically the tour have indirectly affected Phil's media and marketing potential which was one of the things he was angling to improve.


The other thing is, footballers and basketball players have salaries. Not sure you can say the same thing about golfers unless you are referring to their off-course earnings which brings us back to the media rights issue.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 04, 2022, 08:29:28 AM
The other thing is, footballers and basketball players have salaries. Not sure you can say the same thing about golfers unless you are referring to their off-course earnings which brings us back to the media rights issue.
They're also not independent to choose when and where they play. And their leagues, once again, make a tremendous amount more money than the PGA Tour. Golf is still not a "top five" sport.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 04, 2022, 09:11:27 AM
Erik


I'm not sure the relevance of what you are saying. Golf may not be as big as the other sports you refer to however surely the point is that in those other team sports the players are contracted and get a salary every week whereas golfers show up in the hope, or expectation in the case of the top players, that they might win something. They are guaranteed nothing.


Sponsorship and therefore control of their image surely count for more to a golfer than they do for another athlete who is contracted to a team. 


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on March 04, 2022, 09:16:17 AM
Niall, do you think every golfer would take on that gamble at the outset of their careers?


Surely the platform the Tour has built for the players, by the players counts for a great deal of their notoriety...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 04, 2022, 09:19:27 AM
They are guaranteed nothing.
Because they haven't signed a contract like players in other sports have: the players in other sports are guaranteed a payday because they're operating under a whole different premise. They're part of a union, they sign contracts. Golfers are mostly independent contractors, so they arguably give up some $ for some freedom. Freedom to make their own schedules, etc. AND their leagues make a heck of a lot more money than the PGA Tour.

The Saudi League would have made golfers more like players in other sports: contractually obligated to play, etc. Players have generally not wanted that.


Sponsorship and therefore control of their image surely count for more to a golfer than they do for another athlete who is contracted to a team.

Golfers can do a lot to control and sell "their image." They just don't have media rights to their competitive rounds… but neither do the players in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. And they didn't fund the TV crews, etc. The league, like every other league, negotiates the media deals as a whole, on behalf of all players.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 04, 2022, 12:24:33 PM
Erik,

I agree with your comment in principle...but...PGA Tour players still have by-laws they must adhere too in terms of what they can wear, minimum # of events, interaction with other players and media, etc. 

I do think its a valid criticism of the PGATour that they benefit of having players be independent contractors and avoid paying out on travel expenses, costs, health care, training costs, etc,....and yet still able to implement aforementioned rules and regulations to govern them.

Seems long overdue that anyone who shows up to an event and misses the cut should get enough to at least cover costs of traveling, lodging, caddy costs, etc. and I'd bet the PIP money alone would be enough to cover most of this.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on March 04, 2022, 01:10:14 PM
Kalen,


The tour has started paying for showing up.  Any player who plays in 15 or more events gets $50K just for showing up.



According to an article on ESPN.con, only 1 of the top 150 on the FedEx cup list last year failed to play in 15 events.


The US Open, the Masters and I presume other majors pay a few thousand dollars to every pro who plays.  The USGA also reimburses all the amateurs expenses at the US Open.


[size=78%]I believe they have very beneficial health care plans, a van at every event for workouts, free food, free cars and plenty of other perks.[/size]


And then they all have endorsement contracts.  Those logos on their shirts and hats don’t come for free.


This reminds me of the player a few years ago who complained about his life and said he thought he quit if he can find another job that pays $200k a year. 


The top 200 players earned over $175K in “official” earnings and probably a lot more overall.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Paul Stephenson on March 04, 2022, 02:55:35 PM
I dislike the Saudis and I refused to go to Saudi Arabia when I had the chance, but all of the sponsors cancelling contracts with Phil seems a bit excessive to me.  What about all of the guys that have gone over to Saudi to play in tournaments?  Are they not just as culpable as Mickelson in turning a blind eye to a murderous regime to line their pockets.  That includes DJ, Justin Rose, Finau, Reed, Poulter, Dechambeau, Garcia, Bubba, Harold Varner III, etc.


I don't think it's about the Saudis at all.
Many/most of his sponsors do business there, as do many of his peers.
It's about bashing the hand that fed him for 30 lucrative years, and personally bashing its Commissioner, then turning around and bashing the tour/sponsoring country that you admit using for leverage against your own tour.
Regardless of his intentions, the sponsors came to the conclusion that their dollars might be spent better elsewhere.Quite an easy decision given that Phil gave them the option.
Phil gave them the option and they made a decision.


Well said.  I didn't think you could burn a bridge from 3 ends but PM has managed to find a way.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on March 04, 2022, 03:35:50 PM
Paul, that to me is the most poignant and telling aspect of all this. If life were a US Open, PM needed only to bunt a little three wood down the middle of the 18th and the crown would've been his. Instead, he slashed away with a 47 inch driver and sliced it into the trees -- from where he still would've won, if only he could've taken his medicine and limped his way in; but he couldn't, and he didn't, because that's not his way. Some get hair plugs and a red convertible, some climb Mt Everest, some have torrid affairs with the secretary -- PM self destructs. He's the scorpion stinging the frog while riding atop it across the river -- about to drown because of it, but staying true to his nature. It seems clearly to me a cautionary tale, if we're willing to look at it that way.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 04, 2022, 04:06:55 PM
John,

I'm glad to hear the Tour has stepped up to do a form of appearance fees, it would seem a much better use of money than the PIP program where a guy gets paid $8 mill for not even hitting one ball on tour all year.

A free lunch and shuttle van is something I guess, even if a tiny pittance compared to their other costs like caddy, hotel, air travel, etc.  Between that and all the tax implications of being a true C2C org, you'd need a full time accountant for the annual tax returns and filing and writing checks in half the states across the country.  I'd think $200k would barely be breaking even....

While the top 50 on Tour no doubt are doing well between winnings and lucrative endorsements, hope they do more for the other guys.  No doubt athletes who are 51-200 in the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc are doing far far better financially than those on Tour.

P.S.  Peter, I'd love to see a Phil meme doing all the stuff! ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 04, 2022, 06:17:33 PM
I agree with your comment in principle...but...PGA Tour players still have by-laws they must adhere too in terms of what they can wear, minimum # of events, interaction with other players and media, etc.
Of course. That's a far cry, as you know, from the other sports and the requirements they place on your time and the limitations on your freedoms.

Seems long overdue that anyone who shows up to an event and misses the cut should get enough to at least cover costs of traveling, lodging, caddy costs, etc. and I'd bet the PIP money alone would be enough to cover most of this.
They give players who play 15 events $50k.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Elvins on March 05, 2022, 01:22:41 AM

While the top 50 on Tour no doubt are doing well between winnings and lucrative endorsements, hope they do more for the other guys.  No doubt athletes who are 51-200 in the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc are doing far far better financially than those on Tour.


NBA Broadcast revenue is 4 times that of the pga tour.  Of course their athletes earn more than golfers.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on March 06, 2022, 01:32:13 AM
Total NBA revenues are about $8.3B and the PGA Tour revenues are about $1.5B.  But there are 530 players in the NBA and only 175 + exemptions on the PGA tour.  So the revenue per player disparity isn't as big as the total revenue disparity.   

In the NBA, the players got 50% of the total revenues and for the PGA Tour, 55% of the revenues went to purses.   

It is interesting looking at the Tour's financials though. 
https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/view_990/520999206/86c3bd9f7c2e515bb1bf0a90dead1996 (https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/view_990/520999206/86c3bd9f7c2e515bb1bf0a90dead1996)

This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year.  > $2B held in cash and securities.  Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.  The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash.  i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even). 

2.7% of the Tour revenues that year went to charitable giving, with the World Golf Foundation getting the most by a huge margin with $12.5M.  East Lake Foundation got $2.6M.  It looks like Shark Shootout Charities was next highest with $475K.  Lots of small amounts, like $5K to Special Olympics in FL. 

The salaries, wages, and benefits paid out by the tour were more than 3x what was given out to charities ($141MM vs $41MM). 

It is also interesting to look at the governance structures.  Players are represented, but it doesn't appear to me that they have control.  It looks like the policy board is comprised of 4 players who are elected, 4 independent directors who name their successors, and a PGA of America director.  Unless I'm not understanding it, it appears that the players are the minority on the board. 

Rory is one of the 4 players currently on the Policy Board, so it's no surprise that he wasn't approving of Phil's maneuvering. 

And the chairman of the Board supposedly shot down a proposal for a way to fend off the Saudi league (although the proposal sounds shady too):
https://nypost.com/2022/02/20/pga-tour-nixed-league-that-would-have-squashed-saudi-rivals/ (https://www.glensfallschronicle.com/edward-herlihy-glens-falls-native-has-key-role-in-pro-golf-mega-battle/)

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Elvins on March 06, 2022, 05:47:55 AM

This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year.  > $2B held in cash and securities.  Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.  The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash.  i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even). 


For better or worse, The Tour owns and operates 30+ TPC courses.  You can't take a serious look at the tour's income/expenses/ assests/liabilities without seperating these out.  They are significant assetts that generate signifcant revenue and have significant expenses.  There is no billion dollars sitting in the tour accounts. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on March 06, 2022, 10:38:38 AM
It's remarkable how much attention we're paying to a televised sport that most of us apparently never watch, "except maybe for the majors". Most stops, even on a Sunday, with one always pampered vanilla flavoured tour pro trading mid irons and lag putts with another, is like watching paint dry for 'excitement' -- except worse because at least paint drying doesn't have try-hard announcers constantly peddling banal narratives at me. If it wasn't for the fact that many American CEOs are middle aged white men who love to play golf and to mingle and play pro-ams with the greats of the game, and so funnel undue amounts of their marketing budgets into making that happen sponsoring tournaments, there'd hardly even be any televised golf to watch in the first place (which hardly anyone is watching anyway, in any event); Sunday afternoons would just as easily be filled with figure skating, Rangers games, curling and equestrian show jumping instead. Which is to say: PM, Rory, the 18th ranked golfer in the world, Brooks and Bryson, numbers 24 to 155 in the race to the Fed Ex Cup standings -- they all should be thanking their lucky stars, and God, and Tiger Woods to be earning the kind of money that they already do, and thanking too compliant corporate boards for signing off on the folly of CEO golf-related spending. And the PGA Tour should in turn stop pretending they came into being along with the Ten Commandments as a gift to human kind, and admit they're just a greedy little corporation like every other, except for their great good luck in having a near monopoly to peddle a product beloved by fellow CEOs.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 06, 2022, 11:19:49 AM
From a pure union busting standpoint; many of these same arguments were used against Curt Flood.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Flood


I would love for Cavalier to paint of picture of the Labor Law ramifications if Phil could get himself declared an employee of the Tour.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 06, 2022, 01:05:49 PM
Peter F,

Thanks for posting up the various comparisons between the NBA and The PGATour.  The other thing the Tour seemingly gets a huge break on is staffing at events as its my understanding most of the ground workers are volunteers, not paid staff like the other leagues.

Overall, I think the players do have gripes/issues that need to be addressed on Tour, even if going about it the way Phil did was counter-productive.

P.S.  The 50th highest paid player in the NBA makes over $20 mill per year.  At most only one player on Tour is even coming close to that, the Fedex cup champ, (unless they have a beyond Tiger-good year and win 15-20 tournies...in one year.)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on March 06, 2022, 01:17:41 PM
How is the pay in the NBA Senior League?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 06, 2022, 01:29:08 PM
How is the pay in the NBA Senior League?


Touche John,

But even if you're a 2nd stringer in the NBA for 10 years, averaging 10-15 minutes per game, you can still easily make $10 mill per season and not need to play BBall into your 40s...much less 50s. ;)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on March 06, 2022, 04:37:24 PM

This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year.  > $2B held in cash and securities.  Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.  The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash.  i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even). 


For better or worse, The Tour owns and operates 30+ TPC courses.  You can't take a serious look at the tour's income/expenses/ assests/liabilities without seperating these out.  They are significant assetts that generate signifcant revenue and have significant expenses.  There is no billion dollars sitting in the tour accounts.


On the balance sheet that I linked to, they showed $140MM in cash, $40MM in A/R, $430MM in notes receivable, $1.5B in marketable securities, and $694MM in other securities. 

I assumed that their golf course holdings were in that $694MM figure and not in the marketable/ publicly traded securities figure.  However, that is a separate entity/ subsidiary called the TPC Network and doesn't qualify for the not-for-profit status.  So, I don't think that any of the revenues or expenses from that operation is in the Form 990.  Maybe the assets and liabilities are also separated.  Most of the TPC courses are just operated by them, not owned. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 06, 2022, 05:19:49 PM
Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.
Even after David's corrections I still don't think you're reading that correctly. There's not $1B liquid sitting around.


The salaries, wages, and benefits paid out by the tour were more than 3x what was given out to charities ($141MM vs $41MM).
Almost all of the charitable givings are by the tournaments, which are almost all set up as separate entities. The PGA Tour doesn't run the Phoenix Open, the Firebirds do.

And the chairman of the Board supposedly shot down a proposal for a way to fend off the Saudi league (although the proposal sounds shady too):
https://nypost.com/2022/02/20/pga-tour-nixed-league-that-would-have-squashed-saudi-rivals/ (https://www.glensfallschronicle.com/edward-herlihy-glens-falls-native-has-key-role-in-pro-golf-mega-battle/)
Supposedly Phil was the "source" for that article.


Thanks for posting up the various comparisons between the NBA and The PGATour.
Except he didn't post the proper understanding/interpretation of it.

P.S.  The 50th highest paid player in the NBA makes over $20 mill per year.  At most only one player on Tour is even coming close to that, the Fedex cup champ, (unless they have a beyond Tiger-good year and win 15-20 tournies...in one year.)

NBA players also:
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 06, 2022, 05:40:04 PM
Erik,

I don't work in the financial sector, but my understanding of a "Marketable Security" is similar to what Pete is implying...an easily liquidable asset that can be converted to cash quickly on public exchanges (maturities of 90 days or less).  This is their primary characteristic/selling point as cash equivalents because yes it would be dumb for an org their size to have $1 Bill in cash laying around. 

So IMO, its not an inaccurate description to say they have that amount "on hand"

P.S.  As for a significantly shorter playing career, are you claiming that making $20 million over say 8-10 years is less favorable than making same over 25-30 years?  Because I sure as hell wouldn't pick the latter...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on March 06, 2022, 05:57:43 PM

This one is from a couple years ago, but shows a $1.2B excess (assets- liabilities) with growth in the equivalent of retained earnings by $70M for that year.  > $2B held in cash and securities.  Isn't surprising that the players thought that an excess of more than a billion dollars should go to them instead of sit in the Tours accounts.  The PIP seems like a pittance when you see this and realize that it was only a fraction of the investment income that the Tour made on investing the excess cash.  i.e. the PIP is the equivalent of paying the players a 3% interest rate on the excess that they are holding in reserve (when they are growing it in the market at a greater rate than they are giving it out in PIP even). 


For better or worse, The Tour owns and operates 30+ TPC courses.  You can't take a serious look at the tour's income/expenses/ assests/liabilities without seperating these out.  They are significant assetts that generate signifcant revenue and have significant expenses.  There is no billion dollars sitting in the tour accounts.


On the balance sheet that I linked to, they showed $140MM in cash, $40MM in A/R, $430MM in notes receivable, $1.5B in marketable securities, and $694MM in other securities. 

I assumed that their golf course holdings were in that $694MM figure and not in the marketable/ publicly traded securities figure.  However, that is a separate entity/ subsidiary called the TPC Network and doesn't qualify for the not-for-profit status.  So, I don't think that any of the revenues or expenses from that operation is in the Form 990.  Maybe the assets and liabilities are also separated.  Most of the TPC courses are just operated by them, not owned.


The NCGA has a separate for-profit company called Poppy Holding for the golf courses that has one share which is held by the NCGA so I’d assume the PGA Tour does something similar.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on March 06, 2022, 06:18:07 PM
Erik,

I don't work in the financial sector, but my understanding of a "Marketable Security" is similar to what Pete is implying...an easily liquidable asset that can be converted to cash quickly on public exchanges (maturities of 90 days or less).  This is their primary characteristic/selling point as cash equivalents because yes it would be dumb for an org their size to have $1 Bill in cash laying around. 

So IMO, its not an inaccurate description to say they have that amount "on hand"

P.S.  As for a significantly shorter playing career, are you claiming that making $20 million over say 8-10 years is less favorable than making same over 25-30 years?  Because I sure as hell wouldn't pick the latter...

Even though I hate the cheating based criminally infested NBA, it's far more popular than golf so it shouldn't be surprising their players earn more money. Golf is a minor viewing sport and to be honest, golfers are well compensated for their rather meager contribution to sports entertainment. The guys who make a splash have the opportunity to be filthy rich.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 06, 2022, 06:50:35 PM
I don't work in the financial sector, but my understanding of a "Marketable Security" is similar to what Pete is implying...an easily liquidable asset that can be converted to cash quickly on public exchanges (maturities of 90 days or less).  This is their primary characteristic/selling point as cash equivalents because yes it would be dumb for an org their size to have $1 Bill in cash laying around.
I can only say what I've heard from others, as I too am not a financial guy. Also, they have quite a bit less now because they had to fund a lot of the pandemic stuff.

P.S.  As for a significantly shorter playing career, are you claiming that making $20 million over say 8-10 years is less favorable than making same over 25-30 years?
I'm not claiming one is more "favorable" than the other, only that while you can earn $5M being a scrub NBA player, you only do so for 2 or 3 or 4 years, often. So it's not like the scrubs are staying in the NBA for 30 years and then playing the Senior NBA.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 07, 2022, 04:59:05 AM
Peter/Kalen/John,
 
Many thanks for that explanation of the financial situation. So in essence Mickelson was correct about the tour and the scale of the funds it has available even if he wasn't completely accurate to the last dollar and cent.
 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the football and basketball contracts are for a number of years and they still pay out even if the player gets injured and can't play during the period of the contract ? In contrast a golfer doesn't even need to get injured, he/she just has to have a downturn in form and they don't make anything in winnings. Of course, if the player is high-profile enough they will still attract an audience for the benefit of the tour.
 
When people talk of "freedom" what they really mean is the freedom to make the most you can in the good days knowing that you could be making hee-haw in the bad days. That's why many people in different walks of life prefer to be employed rather than be a freelancer. Are we seriously suggesting that Mickelson shouldn't be looking to make the most of it when he can?
 
Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on March 07, 2022, 06:01:10 AM
In this otherwise enlightened conversation about the finances of the PGA Tour, no one has yet to describe the multi-billion dollar retirement plan that the Tour creates and manages for its players. It is immensely lucrative, even for those who've had their card for even a few seasons as well as the journeymen who rarely crack the top twenty.


The Tour's funding and administration of this plan rivals the NFL, NBA, and MLB.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 07, 2022, 08:10:27 AM
Many thanks for that explanation of the financial situation. So in essence Mickelson was correct about the tour and the scale of the funds it has available even if he wasn't completely accurate to the last dollar and cent.
No, he wasn't. And even if you want to claim that he was "right" about this one very specific thing, he was wrong about the percentage paid out to players (he said something like 26%), the value of the "digital assets," and plenty of other things. Additionally, he was still working with the Saudi Arabian government.

Are we seriously suggesting that Mickelson shouldn't be looking to make the most of it when he can?
No. We're suggesting he (and you) are really far off-base with a lot of his "facts" and ignoring the context in which those comments are made (i.e. taking Saudi blood money).

In this otherwise enlightened conversation about the finances of the PGA Tour, no one has yet to describe the multi-billion dollar retirement plan that the Tour creates and manages for its players.

I thought I had but I looked back and you're correct… and yes… Phil is going to pull down many, many $M in pension.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 07, 2022, 08:26:32 AM
Erik


I suggested that in essence he was correct, do you dispute that ?


And in terms of context, I have previously suggested on more than one occasion that his interaction with the Saudi's or their representatives (you can call it "working with" or negotiating, it doesn't really matter) was a means of gaining leverage with the tour in order to get a better deal, which judging by his comments to the journalist seems like his preferred outcome. That's the context that's relevant for this discussion.


Niall



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 07, 2022, 08:37:44 AM
I suggested that in essence he was correct, do you dispute that?
Do you dispute that he was incorrect about almost everything else he said?

You realize you're saying "Yeah, but he was right that Jay Monahan is the commissioner, right? So he was not completely wrong about everything he said, right?"

I don't know if he was correct about how much $ the PGA Tour has on reserve, particularly after they had to spend a good bit of it in 2020/2021. But I do know he was wrong about almost everything else he said. And that, at the end of the day, he was looking to get into bed with the Saudis. Do you acknowledge that?

And in terms of context, I have previously suggested on more than one occasion that his interaction with the Saudi's or their representatives (you can call it "working with" or negotiating, it doesn't really matter) was a means of gaining leverage with the tour in order to get a better deal, which judging by his comments to the journalist seems like his preferred outcome. That's the context that's relevant for this discussion.
Apparently you do not. The fact that you still believe that says quite a bit. The context is the whole bit, not just the bits the gullible people want to think are relevant.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on March 07, 2022, 09:50:56 AM
Erik


Here’s the context in terms of Mickelson using the proposed Saudi tour as leverage against the PGA Tour;


“We know they killed [Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi] and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates. They’ve been able to get by with manipulative, coercive, strong-arm tactics because we, the players, had no recourse. As nice a guy as [PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan] comes across as, unless you have leverage, he won’t do what’s right. And the Saudi money has finally given us that leverage. I’m not sure I even want [the SGL] to succeed, but just the idea of it is allowing us to get things done with the [PGA] Tour.”


Now you may argue he still might have joined the Saudi tour, and I wouldn’t dispute that, but I think even a febrile Mickelson hater like yourself would acknowledge that isn’t his preferred outcome.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 07, 2022, 03:23:06 PM
Here’s the context in terms of Mickelson using the proposed Saudi tour as leverage against the PGA Tour;
I'm well aware of the context, as I'm fully aware of the fact that you're taking a guy who is full of shit at his word, when the same guy has gotten numerous basic facts dead wrong.

Listen to this podcast with Harry Higgs, and even he will jump on with several less-than-positive facts about Phil: about how he's not normal at all, about how he's looking out for Phil and Phil alone, about how he's never actually talked with other players about this… etc.

Here you go: https://overcast.fm/+Bt211AE90 (https://overcast.fm/+Bt211AE90)

Now you may argue he still might have joined the Saudi tour, and I wouldn’t dispute that, but I think even a febrile Mickelson hater like yourself would acknowledge that isn’t his preferred outcome.
I don't hate the guy. Not even a little. I just think he's a phony, and that you're buying whatever he's selling. I think he's got a reputation that's nothing like the one he deserves. I think he'd have played on the Saudi Tour and taken their money, absolutely.

And re: that $1B or whatever the Tour is "sitting on," have you looked at their pension liability? It's high, too. Over $1B itself. So as someone else said, "Said another way, they have the cash that will pay out the players pensions in the future, currently invested in marketable securities."

(https://refuge-cdn.nolayingup.dev/original/3X/1/f/1f1e3c0b424b178faefd3a23a0a6fe335f39f1b8.jpeg)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on March 07, 2022, 07:53:58 PM
Peter/Kalen/John
 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the football and basketball contracts are for a number of years and they still pay out even if the player gets injured and can't play during the period of the contract
Niall


Niall, Football contracts are not guaranteed.  So, if you get hurt, the rest of your contract can be voided.  Even if you don’t get hurt, the team can cut you and your contract is done,  a lot of that is going on right now because teams have to fit under the league’s salary cap.  They sign players to huge contracts that are back-end loaded and then cut them or restructure their contracts to get under the next years cap.


EDIT:
In looking there are some guarantees, it’s complicated, more can be read here [size=78%]https://www.profootballrumors.com/2020/09/nfl-contract-guarantees-explained (https://www.profootballrumors.com/2020/09/nfl-contract-guarantees-explained)[/size]



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on March 07, 2022, 08:26:32 PM
Old article but interesting and lays out the pension plan and the potential liability.


PONTE VEDRA BEACH, Fla. — Thanks to the largesse of the FedEx Cup, the best retirement plan in sports just got better.[/size]This year, the PGA Tour’s contribution to the players’ retirement fund is expected to reach $47 million, up from $28.5 million last year and nearly nine times the amount when Tiger Woods joined the tour in 1996.“I don’t think the players appreciate it as much as they should. It’s exponentially better than any plan in sports,” says Dave Lightner, a partner in FSM Capital Management LLC, a Cleveland-based financial planning firm with 60 professional golfers as clients.“It was already a big pool, and now it’s even bigger,” he said.Former PGA Tour commissioner Deane Beman conceived its retirement plan, which the Internal Revenue Service approved in 1983.Revenue-generating business ventures such as the tour’s TPC Network of golf courses and other marketing and licensing agreements allowed the tour to defer some compensation without compromising purses.Getting a plan approved that wouldn’t jeopardize the tour’s 501c6 tax-exempt status was no small accomplishment.It took several attempts.Experience countsMr. Beman credits Victor Ganzi, then a managing partner at New York law firm Rogers & Wells, for masterminding a plan that would pass muster.It helped that Mr. Ganzi had experience. In 1982, he designed a deferred-compensation plan for the LPGA.As one former tour employee said of Mr. Ganzi’s intellect: “You want him for a Trivial Pursuit partner.” Mr. Ganzi now is president and chief executive of New York-based Hearst Corp. and has served on the tour’s board since 1994.He devised a performance-based plan that rewarded players with one deferred-compensation credit for making a 36-hole cut. After the 15th cut made, the value of the credit doubles.“The double-cut provision at a certain level was a linchpin that helped get us approved [by the IRS], because you had to play more to get more,” Mr. Beman said.Any type of retirement plan must have some level of vesting and risk of forfeiture. Under current rules of the tour’s plan, players are vested in the so-called cuts plan after they have played a minimum of 15 official events annually for five seasons. (Seasons need not be consecutive, but the gap between two qualifying seasons can be no longer than five years.)Incentive-based programs have been added to the cuts plan (and since eliminated) to reward players who compete more frequently.“We have the most unpredictable jobs in sports from a tax standpoint,” said Joe Ogilvie, a player director on the tour’s policy board, noting that there are no guaranteed contracts in golf. “The tour’s retirement plan gives you a sense of financial security.”Baseball players, by comparison, receive a pension tied to days of service. It doesn’t matter whether a player has won four World Series rings as did New York Yankees shortstop Derek Jeter or is a left-handed reliever who makes a living facing one batter every couple of games. So how can Tiger Woods sock away close to $700,000 — earned last year through three programs that comprised the tour’s retirement plan — while most professional athletes participating in “qualified” plans can’t contribute more than $44,000 (the maximum allowed by the IRS in 2006)?[/color]Independent contractorsThat is because qualified plans have funding limits and are available only to organizations, including sports teams, that have true employees. The tour isn’t eligible to offer such a plan, because its members are independent contractors.But there is a drawback to the tour’s non-qualified plan. Although there is no funding limit, players’ money can’t be set aside in separate accounts and is held as general assets, making their retirement funds — at least in theory — vulnerable to tour creditors.Retirement assets, valued at $433,425,501, according to the tour’s 2005 Form 990 filed with the IRS, could be at risk if the tour loses a major lawsuit or files for bankruptcy protection.Suffice to say, the tour has taken virtually every precaution to safeguard the retirement funds. It has insurance coverage and has pledged every other asset it owns (worth a combined $600 million to $700 million, according to Mr. Ogilvie) before it will sacrifice the retirement plan.He said: “I think the only chance that money is not there is if we are hit by a meteor, and everybody dies.”Adam Schupak is a Golfweek senior writer. This article was reprinted with the permission of that publication.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Flory on March 08, 2022, 06:56:19 PM
The retirement plan liability is on the balance sheet.  It's part of other liabilities and is broken out on one of the schedules within. 

If you exclude that liability and the securities that the tour (through Schwab) has invested on behalf of the players that matches it, there is a remaining excess of about $1.3B. 

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have reserves, just pointing out that there is an excess from prior years of not distributing all of the net income out to the players and some of the players think the reserves are too high  Clearly they had more than they needed when you see how much more they are doling out after all of the complaining and emerging threats from competitors. 

But I think that the crux of the problem is that the board is set up in a way that takes control away from the players by design- to meet the standards for the tax-exempt status.  The players are 4 out of the 10 board seats.  They can't enact change through that channel, they can just have a minority voice and are privy to what is happening.  Phil concluded after years of dealing with them that the only way to get change was by being an activist.  He overplayed his hand with that strategy, but that was what had been working for him up until that point. 

The NFL gave up its tax-exempt status due to the annoyance of it, the mandatory disclosures, and the bad PR.  Supposedly, the taxes that they are paying is only a bit over $10MM per year.  I wonder if certain players were hoping that the Senate bill in 2017 was going to strip the tour of its tax-exempt status and force a conversion.  Presumably, they could have then made it a true collective and taken full control over it.  They would have still hired professional management, but they'd have a majority on the board and could force through changes if they ever wanted. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 08, 2022, 08:32:26 PM
The players are 4 out of the 10 board seats.  They can't enact change through that channel
They can and have "enacted change through that channel." It's not like the other six members are against the players by rule or role - they're there to provide a business perspective to a bunch of athletes, not to oppose them in all they want to do.

Phil concluded after years of dealing with them that the only way to get change was by being an activist.
Where's your proof that Phil ever "dealt with them" let alone "after years"?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on March 22, 2022, 07:15:21 PM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 23, 2022, 08:27:34 AM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 23, 2022, 01:09:31 PM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?
For as much heat as he has taken, don't forget he won a major last year!  He isn't washed up by any means, despite all the shade he gets and yes much deservered. However, he is the defending PGA Champion.
If he missed the PGA then I'll be shocked and would be curious to know why.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 23, 2022, 05:47:38 PM
Given the Saudi tour is apparently still a go with recent announcements including dates and such, perhaps Phil just biding his time to cash in on some massive paydays. It does seem like he'd have far better opportunities to make big dollars out there playing against a few older pros, and some young no names, and whoever else they can to sign up...

At this point in his career, I've always felt this new tour makes perfect sense...for him.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on March 23, 2022, 07:39:06 PM
This whole thread reminds me of that great exchange from "Citizen Kane", which went something like:

Jedediah: You don't care about anything except you...You want to be loved, but only on your own terms.
Charles:  A toast then, Jedediah, to love: on the only terms anybody ever knows - his own.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on March 23, 2022, 08:32:13 PM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


It’s being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 24, 2022, 08:37:52 AM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


It’s being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.


After I wrote the above post, I read that same thing, reported I believe by Golfweek.  The article said that he had either been asked or told by ANGC not to come, and also reported that he is, in fact, currently suspended by the Tour.


If all of that is true, and it’s certainly believable, then combined with loss of sponsors this would appear to be arguably the biggest blunder in golf history.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 24, 2022, 11:01:29 AM
Mickelson out of the Masters!!!! Has he been suspended? and if so, for how long?


If he has been suspended by the Tour, ANGC could do anything they wished regardless.  And vice versa; they could request that he stay away even if there was no suspension.


Unless Phil tells us, we’ll probably never know; the PGA Tour and ANGC are both about as secretive as any NGO I can think of.


It’s being reported that ANGC asked him to sit it out this year.


After I wrote the above post, I read that same thing, reported I believe by Golfweek.  The article said that he had either been asked or told by ANGC not to come, and also reported that he is, in fact, currently suspended by the Tour.


If all of that is true, and it’s certainly believable, then combined with loss of sponsors this would appear to be arguably the biggest blunder in golf history.


Or lead to a massive payday if he plays for The Shark  ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pat Burke on March 24, 2022, 11:49:13 AM
Re: the retirement plan
My own experience Only
I was a pga tour member with mediocre levels of success imo For 1990/92-97.  MADE 76 cuts played 150+ events.
I have exactly ZERO Retirement.
The “pension” plan is great for successful players.  If I was in any of the other major sports, I’d have some kind of decent pension. IMO our pension is a rich get richer, but I’m certainly biased




Re Phil:
He IS different than his public persona in my experience. But NOT bad(not talking about Saudi stuff).  He is a smart ass, and certainly looks at things from his own viewpoint.  But he was also a guy that while I didn’t know him that well, offered to help me out a lot when I was returning from a serious injury.  I was practicing at a course he was playing, and struggling with equipment issues.  He set up a round with me and one of the manufacturers design team, getting him to work with me on some unique issues I had after wrist surgery.


Just my experiences.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JMEvensky on March 24, 2022, 12:01:31 PM
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David Federman on March 24, 2022, 01:58:59 PM
Given Phil's stature as an all-time great, with a huge fan base, have to believe that we are privy to only the tip of the iceberg as to everything that went down. If not, the punishment seems grossly excessive to the transgression. Other than Cabrera being in jail, has there even been a revocation of a Masters invite for anyone, let alone a player of Phil's stature?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike_Trenham on March 24, 2022, 08:07:13 PM
Given Phil's stature as an all-time great, with a huge fan base, have to believe that we are privy to only the tip of the iceberg as to everything that went down. If not, the punishment seems grossly excessive to the transgression. Other than Cabrera being in jail, has there even been a revocation of a Masters invite for anyone, let alone a player of Phil's stature?


In 1948 Frank Stranahan’s invitation was revoked for allegedly hitting extra practice shots into the greens and ungentlemanly response when questioned about it. He was escorted off the 8th green never to return.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pat Burke on March 24, 2022, 11:50:56 PM
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because I’m not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and I’ve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 25, 2022, 12:30:07 AM
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because I’m not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and I’ve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?
I know you don't have a union and are independent contractors so maybe they just treat the journeymen poorly.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 25, 2022, 10:57:27 AM
Pat Burke--thanks for taking the time to type that. Regarding PGAT issues, your opinion is more equal than others'.  ;)


Honestly, just have fun sharing my experience in certain areas.  There are plenty of times I got in trouble when I played because I’m not disciplined enough to NOT answer questions. 


But I can say, dealing with the Commissioner and the tour with my own selfish case was the worst professional experience of my life, and I’ve worked at a ClubCorp facility in my past! :D .


The opportunities To play were amazing.  The staff I dealt with were top shelf.   Everything as a competitor was amazing.
Everything as a journeyman dealing with the business was less so. The bureaucracy at the top was just terrible for me.     
Hi Pat thank you for the insights. Was it so difficult because of lack of rules/guidelines? Interpretation of them or just callousness to journeymen on most every level?
I know you don't have a union and are independent contractors so maybe they just treat the journeymen poorly.


Jeff,

If I can hazard a guess before Pat chimes in

I suspect its like most other places where the stars...aka top employees... get all the best perks, promotions, attention, issues addressed, etc. and everyone else basically gets told, be happy you have a job here and get back to work. ;)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pat Burke on March 25, 2022, 11:33:50 PM
Kalen pretty well summed it up nicely.


Again, please understand, this is my experience.  But I do believe the tour is amazing. But I get frustrated when I hear how great the pension is and I know a lot of players who have no pension at all, and with  a similar career in hockey/baseball/football would have something.
I am definitely a fan of “play better make more”, but pensions to me should be also be available a bit deeper.


Much has changed since I played though and I would likely have something with a similar career today.


But a lot of players from before my time were on the outside looking in.  Much like the NHL years back, they were dragged in to doing something to help guys that helped build the league.


That’s a serious gripe of mine. Haha
But I do believe there were different rules for different players at times. Direct and honest from the top was not the priority all the time imo
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Lou_Duran on March 26, 2022, 11:50:14 AM

PB,

There was an article some time ago, I believe in Golf Digest, which outlined the Tour's pension program from information it had acquired (perhaps second hand) from an unnamed original source.  My recollection is that players "earned" points based on cuts made as opposed to actual $ made from the purse.  I thought that the threshold for the # of cuts made to vest was considerably lower than the 76 you made.  The impression I got at that time is that the plan was pretty well-balanced.  I have to wonder why the Tour is not totally transparent with this.


While I tend to fall closer philosophically with the Pareto Principle (80% of outcomes result from 20% of causes) than any number of politicians and some here who spouse the "... you didn't build that.  Somebody else made it happen.", you were an important part of competitive professional golf and some of the "riches" should flow to you and all other journeymen.  I think Football has found a way to compensate players not previously covered by current agreements.  The PGA Tour certainly has the money to be more inclusive and I hope that you and your colleagues press the matter.


I agree that Lefty is his own worse enemy- "loose tongues sink ships", but I really don't care if his motivation was mostly selfish as many seem to allege.  The PGA Tour, like any large, well-financed bureaucracy, could use a heavy prod from an alternative organization.  Tour administrators may claim that the players "didn't build that", but the apparent over-reaction to Michelson suggests otherwise.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on March 27, 2022, 09:20:27 PM
I'm still curious as to the length of his suspension, anyone have inside information?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on March 28, 2022, 06:04:36 AM
I'm still curious as to the length of his suspension, anyone have inside information?


A very well placed source told me later last week that it is "indefinite, with some agreement to review within a specified period of time."


Furthermore, he said Phil's quotes to Alan Shipnuck were only the "(public) tip of the iceberg and that several other salacious words were spoken with Tour officials." That along with Phil's open admission to proactively working to both further the PGL/LIV AND discredit the PGA Tour is what led to the suspension and losing his sponsors.


FWIW, the source opined that he thought Phil was easily the greediest malcontent on the Tour and mentioned that a good number of players had actually thanked senior officials of the tour for suspending FIGJAM.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on March 28, 2022, 09:22:59 AM
Discussion of PM's prospects here:

https://golf.com/news/scottie-schefflers-ascent-phil-mickelson-missing-the-masters/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=46711a7d8752dad1b1e7b5ee908db635b52d3af08061f8b9672ff1570f17bd75&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on March 28, 2022, 05:13:18 PM



[size=1.5rem][/size]
[size=1.5rem]I copied and pasted this from Alan Shupnick
The Truth About Phil and Saudi Arabia

[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]What does Mickelson want? The answers are contained in a new book about the vexing superstarBy Alan Shipnuck
[/font][/size]
[size=1.5rem][font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]As the Saudi Golf League threatens to create a new world order for professional golf, one of the biggest questions in the game can be boiled down to three words: Whither Phil Mickelson? Mercurial, strident, Machiavellian, the 51-year-old Hall of Famer is, as has often been the case, engulfed in controversy. Mickelson has refrained from saying anything of substance publicly about the upstart SGL, but his involvement in the birth of the tour is much more extensive than has been previously known; he laid out the details for me in a long phone call last November, as I was putting the finishing touches on my forthcoming book  (https://www.amazon.com/Phil-Rip-Roaring-Unauthorized-Biography-Superstar/dp/B09MV7CDT3/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1Y0EEYAQWIJEG&keywords=shipnuck+mickelson&qid=1645053712&sprefix=shipnuck%2Caps%2C453&sr=8-2)[font=AvenirNextLTPro-It !important]Phil: The Rip-Roaring (and Unauthorized!) Biography of Golf’s Most Colorful Superstar (https://www.amazon.com/Phil-Rip-Roaring-Unauthorized-Biography-Superstar/dp/1476797099/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36GMMME3M5ZZA&keywords=alan+shipnuck&qid=1645105950&sprefix=alan+shipuck%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-1)[/i][/font]. Knowing that in the course of my reporting I had conducted (nearly 200) interviews with both his critics and supporters, Mickelson couldn’t resist trying to peddle influence regarding one of the most polarizing chapters in a quarrelsome career.[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]Mickelson told me he had enlisted three other “top players” he declined to name and that they paid for attorneys to write the SGL’s operating agreement, codifying that the players would have control of all the details. He didn’t pretend to be excited about hitching his fortunes to Saudi Arabia, admitting the SGL was nothing more than what he called “sportswashing” by a brutally repressive regime. “They’re scary motherfuckers  (https://firepitcollective.com/blood-oil-golf-pga-premier-golf-league/)to get involved with,” he said. “We know they killed [[font=AvenirNextLTPro-It !important]Washington Post[/font][/font] reporter and U.S. resident Jamal] Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates. They’ve been able to get by with manipulative, coercive, strong-arm tactics because we, the players, had no recourse. As nice a guy as [PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan] comes across as, unless you have leverage, he won’t do what’s right. And the Saudi money has finally given us that leverage. I’m not sure I even want [the SGL] to succeed, but just the idea of it is allowing us to get things done with the [PGA] Tour.”
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]Indeed, Monahan has treated the SGL as an existential threat, warning that any player who signs on with the competition would be banned for life by the PGA Tour. (This is a legally dubious position but reflects Monahan’s siege mentality.) The Tour quickly began pumping money to the players to try to blunt the Saudi incursion, jacking up the 2021 Players Championship purse to $15 million and introducing the $40 million Player Impact Program, which was billed as a bonus pool for the pros who best engaged with fans through social media. The Tour has alluded to shadowy algorithms and metrics but refuses to make public how the money is being distributed, leaving no doubt it is merely a slush fund for Monahan to try to buy the loyalty of his superstars. The day after Mickelson called me, word leaked about the Tour’s continued efforts to purchase its players’ happiness: For 2022, the PIP has been raised to $50 million; the FedEx Cup bonus pool has increased from $60 million to $75 million; two spurious season-long bonus programs will hand out $20 million more; and tournament purses are increasing by $60 million to $427 million, with the Players Championship payout rising to $20 million. That’s double what the Tour doled out for its flagship event in 2014, and in 2018 the purse was [font=AvenirNextLTPro-It !important]only[/font][/font] $11 million.
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]Mickelson’s gambit with the Saudis had clearly worked, to the benefit of all, but even with the influx of so much funny money he remains unsatisfied. In his mind, two larger battles remain: the players taking possession of their media rights and a wholesale restructuring of how the players are governed. The Tour’s hard-line policy has long been that it absolutely owns the media rights to its members, in perpetuity. So, for example, Turner Sports had to pay the Tour a $1 million licensing fee each of the times Phil has teed it up in an iteration of [font=AvenirNextLTPro-It !important]The Match[/font][/font], though Mickelson himself has made upwards of $15 million from the franchise. “I don’t want to say it’s infuriating, but it is definitely more than frustrating,” he said of having to pay the rights fee. A bigger deal is that the players don’t own the highlights of their own shots. Each of these moments potentially could be turned into an NFT and sold to fans or collectors. (Over the last year more than $600 million of NBA NFTs have been sold, with the 5 percent transaction fees being split evenly among every player in the league; numerous NFTs of NBA players have sold for prices in the six figures.) “The Tour is sitting on multiple billions of dollars worth of NFTs,” Mickelson said during our chat. “They are sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of digital content we could be using for our social media feeds. The players need to own all of that. We played those shots, we created those moments, we should be the ones to profit. The Tour doesn’t need that money. They are already sitting on an $800 million cash stockpile. How do you think they’re funding the PIP? Or investing $200 million in the European Tour? The Tour is supposed to be a nonprofit that distributes money to charity. How the fuck is it legal for them to have that much cash on hand? The answer is, it’s not. But they always want more and more. They have to control everything. Their ego won’t allow them to make the concessions they need to.” Just before Christmas 2021—a month after Mickelson uttered those words—an internal memo leaked with the news the PGA Tour was creating an NFT platform for its players to provide them a source of “long-term, incremental revenue.” Once again, Mickelson’s brinkmanship had worked.
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]But are his grievances fueled by money or principle? With Mickelson, you can never be sure. Given the massive scale of his gambling losses—detailed elsewhere in the book, which, as it happens, can be preordered here (https://www.amazon.com/Phil-Rip-Roaring-Unauthorized-Biography-Superstar/dp/1476797099/ref=sr_1_1?crid=36GMMME3M5ZZA&keywords=alan+shipnuck&qid=1645105950&sprefix=alan+shipuck%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-1)—the Saudi seduction might be born of necessity. Mickelson, whose $94 million in career PGA Tour earnings is second only to that of Tiger Woods, raised eyebrows when he sold his Gulfstream in 2019. “He loved that plane so much it was like his fourth child,” says someone very close to Mickelson. “I was absolutely shocked that he sold it. The only reason I could possibly imagine him doing that was him feeling serious financial pressure.” Phil and his wife, Amy, have purchased land on Jupiter Island, in Florida, and have been interviewing architects; Phil may yet get the haven from state income tax he has long lusted after. “I was interviewing him one time,” says writer John Feinstein, “and he said, apropos of nothing, ‘You always think of me as a right-winger, but I’m actually pretty liberal on social issues like abortion.’ I said, ‘But your number one issue is taxes.’ He said, ‘No, no, no, my number one, two, three, four, and five issues are taxes.’”[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]But Mickelson’s second outstanding issue with the Tour has nothing to do with money. It’s about control. “The Tour likes to pretend it’s a democracy, but it’s really a dictatorship,” he told me. “They divide and conquer. The concerns of the top players are very different from the guys who are lower down on the money list, but there’s a lot more of them. They use the top guys to make their own situation better, but the top guys don’t have a say.” Players are a minority on the all-powerful PGA Tour Policy Board, holding only four of the nine seats, with the other five being filled by luminaries of the business world who, by age and experience, have more in common with the commissioner than the jocks. Mickelson’s idea for governance is, he says, based on the U.S. Congress: The Tour’s vast middle class would be like the House, voting on ideas that would then be rejected or tweaked and ultimately ratified by a much smaller Senate-like body composed of the game’s biggest stars. “That way nothing will get done without the approval of both sides,” Mickelson says. It is an idealistic vision.[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]Phil claims to have spent at least a dozen hours on the phone talking through these issues with Monahan, but found him to be unresponsive. He now has a kindred spirit in Greg Norman, who is overseeing the SGL in his role as the CEO of LIV Golf Investments, which is funded by Saudi oil. “We respect each other’s point of view,” Norman told me. “We understand market value and that the [PGA] Tour works for us, we don’t work for the Tour. Phil asks tough questions. He’s not here to placate anybody. He’s got a mind of his own and his own opinions, which can be incredibly strong and poignant.”[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]On issues of name-image-likeness, the SGL policies will be far more favorable to the players than what they are getting with the PGA Tour, opening up another massive revenue stream in addition to the guaranteed dough that comes with playing for the SGL.[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]Mickelson has a compulsive need to be seen as the smartest guy in the room. Not once did he say our conversation was off-the-record or on background or just between us or anything remotely like that. He simply opened a vein. Even knowing he came armed with an agenda, I was amazed by his bluntness. As always, he remains a wild card. Is the House of Saud’s long money seductive? Obviously. But for Mickelson, the Saudi question is about being right as much as anything else. Is he really ready to try and blow up the PGA Tour if he doesn’t get his way?[/font]
[font=AvenirNextLTPro-Regular !important]“I know 20 guys who want to do this,” he said about the SGL, “and if the Tour doesn’t do the right thing, there is a high likelihood it’s going to happen.”[/font]







[/size][size=1.25rem]1,127 thoughts on “The Truth About Phil and Saudi Arabia”[/font][/color][/size][/size]
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jeff Taylor on March 28, 2022, 05:31:54 PM
So who is taking the high road in this battle for oceans of cash?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 28, 2022, 07:30:56 PM
I was going to re-post it without the crap text, but this is just the old article from https://firepitcollective.com/the-truth-about-phil-and-saudi-arabia/ (https://firepitcollective.com/the-truth-about-phil-and-saudi-arabia/), so read it there, folks.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jim_lewis on March 29, 2022, 08:58:58 PM
Lou:
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: archie_struthers on March 29, 2022, 10:11:32 PM
 8)


Think ;D that he's on double secret  probation....would never miss Masters otherwise.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mark Mammel on March 29, 2022, 11:11:06 PM
Lou:
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Who? Hard to image a scenario where Phil was lead down the garden path without his knowledge.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 30, 2022, 12:21:10 PM
I'm curious too who these "others" may be.

P.S. I think Phil's attempt at a greed based argument rang very hollow considering he's richer than dirt and made more than anyone on the planet (outside of Tiger) by playing golf.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on March 30, 2022, 02:16:50 PM
Lou:
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Perhaps we could agree that there is nobody who can (or has) done Phil more harm than Phil himself. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on April 05, 2022, 05:31:33 PM
I'm curious too who these "others" may be.

P.S. I think Phil's attempt at a greed based argument rang very hollow considering he's richer than dirt and made more than anyone on the planet (outside of Tiger) by playing golf.


But, still, does Phil really have enough?  Apparently not.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pete_Pittock on April 05, 2022, 05:44:25 PM
Lou:
I doubt that Phil is his own worst enemy. There may be some others who deserve that distinction.
Perhaps we could agree that there is nobody who can (or has) done Phil more harm than Phil himself.
Maybe Pete Rose
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 05, 2022, 05:29:23 PM
Very interesting column from Alan Shipnuck:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/inside-the-phil-mickelson-firestorm-from-the-man-who-sparked-it?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050522&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM27527&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 05, 2022, 05:59:50 PM
Very interesting column from Alan Shipnuck:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/inside-the-phil-mickelson-firestorm-from-the-man-who-sparked-it?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050522&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM27527&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0 (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/inside-the-phil-mickelson-firestorm-from-the-man-who-sparked-it?utm_medium=email&utm_source=050522&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM27527&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0)


I quit reading when the author played himself off as a victim. Can’t believe he didn’t learn that’s what happens to gossips back when he was honing his craft in middle school. ZZ Top and Yeti in the same beard joke.  Is Nooruddean too obscure for the golf crowd?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 05, 2022, 07:56:18 PM
Don't worry John. There is no accounting for taste, even yours. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mark Kiely on May 05, 2022, 11:17:50 PM
Pretty sure this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's total bush league stuff to basically omit any details and then still tell the "off the record" stories and talk about how they would've been international news if he'd been able to write the story. Chances are many will interpret that as something worse than whatever the actual story would've been.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 06, 2022, 02:40:01 PM
Pretty sure this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's total bush league stuff to basically omit any details and then still tell the "off the record" stories and talk about how they would've been international news if he'd been able to write the story. Chances are many will interpret that as something worse than whatever the actual story would've been.


Mark & John,




Do you personally know the author, Alan Shipnuck, or are you just content to slander his integrity willy-nilly because it feels good for you?
 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 06, 2022, 03:46:06 PM
Steve,


I thought his beard references were lame. I also believe this book is beneath him. Has the author made it on barstool yet? 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 06, 2022, 06:25:58 PM
Steve,


I thought his beard references were lame. I also believe this book is beneath him. Has the author made it on barstool yet?


John,


Given that Alan now sports a healthy beard, and Phil has always been publicly clean shaven, I think the mention was likely noted to reinforce the "hermit look." I'll constructively disagree with you on the tome being beneath him. Phil is a very interesting subject and unlike Tiger or Hogan, hardly overexposed in any autobiographical sense.


Lastly, I certainly hope its made Barstool! If I was an author looking to promote a sports-related book, I'd want to be there.  Cheers! S



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mark Kiely on May 06, 2022, 06:43:54 PM
Pretty sure this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's total bush league stuff to basically omit any details and then still tell the "off the record" stories and talk about how they would've been international news if he'd been able to write the story. Chances are many will interpret that as something worse than whatever the actual story would've been.


Mark & John,




Do you personally know the author, Alan Shipnuck, or are you just content to slander his integrity willy-nilly because it feels good for you?


First of all, I'd suggest you pick up a dictionary and look up "slander."


Second of all, how can you disagree? He's basically saying, "Oh man if only I could tell you all the stories I've heard" in a cheap attempt to further damage Phil's reputation. I'm all for exposing Phil for whatever he is, but as a journalist, if you don't have the story, you don't have the story. Leave it at that. There's obviously plenty of ammunition in this book already.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 07, 2022, 06:42:04 AM
Mark,

  You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.


He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.

Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on May 07, 2022, 10:45:12 AM
Mark,

  You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.


He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.

Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.




Ask around .. it won't take you long to find out about Shipnuck. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 07, 2022, 10:59:30 AM
Mark,

  You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.


He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.

Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.




Ask around .. it won't take you long to find out about Shipnuck.




 Really? Do you believe what others tell you about different people? Especially in the golf world?


 Alan has been a good friend of mine for quite some time.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on May 07, 2022, 12:38:50 PM
Mark,

  You most certainly "defamed" Shipnuck's integrity. I'm sure that passes most peoples OED test, and to boot, have zero idea who the author really is.


He made distinctly critical decisions to protect others who Phil had interacted with in ways that would've necessarily hurt them. Phil's reputation is already more than well established amongst his peers and people close to the tour. He's a walking dichotomy and the book goes to great lengths to describe many of Phil's positive traits, as well as plenty of his negative ones. You seem to insinuate that the book is some sort of longer National Inquirer hit piece? I've read it and it's far from it. Entertaining and revealing for sure, but reasonably balanced...considering it was "unauthorized" and unaddressed by Phil and Steve Loy....until Phil proactively made the call to discuss it.

Shipnuck "had the story"way more than appear in the book, instead choosing not to go down the rabbit hole of cheaply embarrassing people who aren't the book's subject. Perhaps you are a Phil fan? I certainly was and to a lesser degree still am. I admire Phil on a few levels and am repulsed on others. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but complex characters call for a wider perspective.




Ask around .. it won't take you long to find out about Shipnuck.



 Really? Do you believe what others tell you about different people? Especially in the golf world?


 Alan has been a good friend of mine for quite some time.


Then there's no swaying you one way or another. I'm not saying he's not a good guy, but I have first hand knowledge of things. You don't get to where he's at without ruffling a few feathers. It's all good .. I'm sure he's a good guy, and I honestly don't give a shit.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mark Kiely on May 07, 2022, 12:43:23 PM
Steve, I have been a Phil fan for many years. That said, I recognize he can be a big phony and have no problem with him being exposed. What I'm a bigger fan of, though, is journalistic integrity. In my mind, including allusions to those off-the-record stories undermines Alan's believability for the rest of the book. I have not read the book nor do I know (or know anything about) Alan.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on May 07, 2022, 01:26:32 PM
   I don’t see how protecting a source or a third party renders what has been published unreliable. Indeed, Phil hasn’t said anything is untrue, has he? He has only claimed (unconvincingly) that what he said was off the record. I have no doubt that Shipnuck’s book has been well sourced.
  On the other hand, if an author chooses not to include something in a book, he shouldn’t salaciously allude to that unreported information. That’s not right.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 08, 2022, 02:36:07 AM
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on May 08, 2022, 09:10:10 AM
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao


Sean, you're spot on there...
I guess the only question now is whether there'll be any Kitty Kelley colonoscopy comparisons for Shipnuck... by all the authorized and unauthorized critics ::)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on May 08, 2022, 10:53:55 AM
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao


No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 08, 2022, 11:36:37 AM
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao


No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.

You are missing the point. By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis and many other sordid types throughout our history. I am not convinced it can be avoided to be honest. Choosing to turn a blind eye doesn't make it any less true.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on May 08, 2022, 11:41:31 AM
All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao


No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.

You are missing the point. By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis and many other sordid types throughout our history. I am not convinced it can be avoided to be honest. Choosing to turn a blind eye doesn't make it any less true.

Ciao


I’m not disagreeing. I was answering another question.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 08, 2022, 12:39:02 PM
Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 08, 2022, 05:33:44 PM
A young lady from my home town was on a college trip when her flight blew up over Scotland. The Scottish government let one of the terrorist serving a life sentence go and he returned home to a heroes welcome. Perhaps we should boycott Scotland. Somethings are out of citizens of every countries control.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Colin Macqueen on May 08, 2022, 06:25:10 PM
Rob, Don't be daft!
What Kalen said! Living in the country does not mean, axiomatically, that you agree with that government's (and was it Scotland's or England's) every decision!
I can assure you that many, many Scots were furious that the bomber was allowed to "flee". I could feel the anger in my family all the way down here to Oz.
If you decide to snub, denigrate, demean and boycott the Scots remember their motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"!
Heaven forbid you might miss out on a few golf courses!!
Cheers Colin
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 08, 2022, 06:32:45 PM
Rob, Don't be daft!
What Kalen said! Living in the country does not mean, axiomatically, that you agree with that government's (and was it Scotland's or England's) every decision!
I can assure you that many, many Scots were furious that the bomber was allowed to "flee". I could feel the anger in my family all the way down here to Oz.
If you decide to snub, denigrate, demean and boycott the Scots remember their motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"!
Heaven forbid you might miss out on a few golf courses!!
Cheers Colin


I wasn’t  deeming Scots. My point was we as citizens of every country have to deal with political  decisions we don’t agree with. That includes Americans, Scots, everyone of us.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 08, 2022, 08:43:11 PM
Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady

It's good to know some people are trying to keep tabs.. thank you. But, ultimately, the people are responsible for their elected leaders which is presumably one reason you keep tabs. It doesn't mean we agree with all their actions, but on some level we are, in fact responsible. But it goes much deeper. The money rolling through our economy makes it nearly impossible to steer clear of blood money. Our society is infected with blood money. That's just the way it is and as I said before, I don't know if it's possible to keep an economy 100% clean money, whatever that means which is partly my point. We all have a different definition of dirty money.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 08, 2022, 08:50:48 PM
Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady

It's good to know some people are trying to keep tabs.. thank you. But, ultimately, the people are responsible for their elected leaders which is presumably one reason you keep tabs. It doesn't mean we agree with all their actions, but on some level we are, in fact responsible. But it goes much deeper. The money rolling through our economy makes it nearly impossible to steer clear of blood money. Our society is infected with blood money. That's just the way it is and as I said before, I don't know if it's possible to keep an economy 100% clean money, whatever that means which is partly my point. We all have a different definition of dirty money.

Ciao


Sean,

I completely understand that last post, and agree.  There is hardly a country on the planet that is not complicit is some way. The parts in your prior posts I didn't agree with are:

"By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis".

The American govt and big business are in bed with them, not the vast majority of its citizens.  And it doesn't end there...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pat Burke on May 09, 2022, 01:12:06 PM
I’m probably complicit Too.
I buy gas at the best price.
Worked for golf owners that took advantage or even misled customers.
BuY foreign cars.
I’m certain  I have Chinese products , but haven’t really checked much of my purchases.


And I dealt with the pga tour in high levels and my experience as an unknown players were in some cases, disgusting. I spoke out but I also kept playing.  Why?  Because it’s where you play to get somewhere.


My glass house is fragile, putting down my stones :D





Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Craig Sweet on May 12, 2022, 09:11:52 AM
This guy is so out of touch.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Anthony Butler on May 13, 2022, 10:38:00 AM

Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers


Almost certainly coerced.


The part about all Saudi Govt. employees who sentenced to death or lengthy prison terms while the people who ordered this killing are free to run the country certainly gets your attention..
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 13, 2022, 11:12:14 AM
This guy is so out of touch.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing)


He's not out of touch, He hates the PGA Tour Admin so much he doesn't care. He knows the truth, he just chooses to ignore it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Craig Sweet on May 13, 2022, 07:32:40 PM
I won't exactly call butchering an American journalist like a cow an "opps, we all make "mistakes".  Normans ego does not allow him to accept reality.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 13, 2022, 08:54:16 PM
I won't exactly call butchering an American journalist like a cow an "opps, we all make "mistakes".  Normans ego does not allow him to accept reality.
It's not easy to find a way to make Mickelson and Shipnuck look good in this mess, but Norman was able to do it with ease.  And fwiw, Norman isn't just about hating the PGA Tour; he is attempting to use the R&A as part of his show by casting them as bad guys for not letting a 67 year old publicity hound who hasn't competed in years have a spot in the Open.


I'm sure there have been more graceless aftermaths to a great career; I just can't think of any right now.

Golf is big.  When Norman and Mickelson leave the stage, however and whenever that occurs, the game will be fine.  Their attempts to appear somehow relevant are tiresome, to say the least.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on May 13, 2022, 10:08:57 PM
FWIW, love the PGA Tour or hate it, their reaction, and that of players like Thomas and Morikawa aren't really about how terrible the Saudis are.


It's about Phil's openly stated goal to lever the tour into being "better" in its relationship with the players, whatever that means. We all know that a lot of the leaders in that part of the world aren't such nice folks, as if Western leaders are blameless.


The PGA Tour has created a money-making machine for anyone good enough to get on tour and stay there for a significant period, and all the things Mickelson and Norman have bitched about are part of why it is that machine.


"Forcing" players to enter a minimum number of events and controlling secondary media rights are certainly key to big purses and a hefty pension plan.  As for Phil griping about the cash reserves, I have seen it suggested that without them the tour wouldn't have been able to get through the Covid restrictions,


I agree with those who said we are unlikely to avoid relationships with bad actors, simply because our leaders either decide to, or can't find another way.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jeffwarne on May 14, 2022, 10:56:58 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FStkmSHWYAMNacg?format=jpg&name=large)
Pretty strong words from Wayne Grady.
I've not really criticized Mickelson for playing in Saudi and all that entails(it wouldn't be for me but to each their own), but rather for the way he and Norman have gone about supporting a rival tour and bashing their own on the way out.
Greg Norman was always a huge deal for me, growing up idolizing him at Augusta as a young charismatic exciting player who wanted it so bad he couldn't close it. We can all relate to that, and we were all crushed he never won there, depriving him and all of us the chance to see him there for life.
But, along the way, his perceived failures most definitely changed and molded him, and not for the better IMHO.
I ate breakfast with him once and he was running quite late for a course opening clinic he was due to conduct for a good friend/client. He was in no hurry and made it quite clear he'd rush for no one, not knowing my relationship. It seemed like a dick move to me.
Then I went out and watched the clinic that started 30 minutes late  and he absolutely won me over again.
Incredible display.


Just seems like he got lost along the way, but then I really don't give a $hi%$ about how powerful or how much $$ someone has, and he seems to care deeply about worldly stuff, as if compensating for lack of major wins he, and we, all feel he deserved.


I'll stay tuned, but I'm pretty sure it's not off to the start he or the organizers envisioned.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 14, 2022, 01:44:20 PM
Jeff,

Your last post really hit home to me.  I have no clue who Norman actually is and only have his decisions and public persona and comments to form an opinion from.  And as poorly of what I think of him with his involvement with the Saudis...

When i watched his recent 30 for 30 that was heavily centered around his experiences at Augusta and the various other things both professionally and personally that he opened up on and spoke very frankly, I couldn't help to feel empathy and root for the guy.

And this is an odd place for me because when it comes to highly public figures, I'm pretty binary in my opinions of them for better or worse...but Norman seems to flip flop back and forth in my mind.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pat Burke on May 14, 2022, 02:34:32 PM
With Phil’s WD from the PGA, and the statement released by the PGA,


I’m a little worried that the PGA seemed to be saying Phil is welcome to play and be a member.


But they added wording  wishing Phil and Amy well.
I hope Amy is doing ok. I may be reading in to this, but that seemed a little cryptic to me
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Lou_Duran on May 14, 2022, 08:13:25 PM
A friend visited the Tour's facility in FL recently and remarked about its space-age, opulent digs.  I think that Lefty's major issue has a bit to do with the benefits of the Tour flowing disproportionately to those who have relatively little to do with its success.


Notwithstanding his rhetorical excess, he may have a point.  Ultra-high salaries and benefits, enviable travel perks, and getting in as an integral part of "the show" by folks who don't hit a single shot probably wears thin on those who make their way primarily on the scores they achieve.  How a journeyman like Pat Burke does not enjoy pension benefits despite the many cuts he made prior to injury is puzzling.


The $Billions of past, current and projected revenues from all the data and images which are being created for at least 20+ years should be widely shared, IMO.  If the Tour was in the oil or healthcare business and restrained trade as it is attempting to do, I am sure that the federal government would have stepped in.  $1 Billion in non-pension obligated cash should be more than ample to meet a Black Swan possibly appearing in the future.  Are we not getting a bit tired of blaming Covid for all the crap that we are currently experiencing?  Thank God we haven't quite yet jumped the shark and started blaming Putin for this mess.


I will miss not seeing Michelson at Southern Hills.  He probably would not have made the cut, but it would have added a lot more interest.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 15, 2022, 01:00:38 AM
I think Phil Michelson's gambling habits, loss of everyone of his sponsors and the severe loss of income will cause Phil to go to the Saudi Tour. Phil parted ways with his caddy because Phil owed him back pay...that says an awful lot about Phil's money woes. I heard he parted with his beloved Private Jet, he has not started construction on his Jupiter Island Home. Could it be that Phil is broke? If the Saudi's are offering him a guaranteed $25 million per year deal, I'd bet (no pun intended) he takes it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Brian_Ewen on May 15, 2022, 02:31:54 AM
If you get past the paywall, an interesting read.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/phil-was-more-concerned-about-who-was-winning-the-football-games-the-story-behind-mickelsons-betting-habit-70kh0zt9q (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/phil-was-more-concerned-about-who-was-winning-the-football-games-the-story-behind-mickelsons-betting-habit-70kh0zt9q)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jonathan Cummings on May 15, 2022, 08:42:57 AM
I think Phil Michelson's gambling habits, loss of everyone of his sponsors and the severe loss of income will cause Phil to go to the Saudi Tour. Phil parted ways with his caddy because Phil owed him back pay...that says an awful lot about Phil's money woes. I heard he parted with his beloved Private Jet, he has not started construction on his Jupiter Island Home. Could it be that Phil is broke? If the Saudi's are offering him a guaranteed $25 million per year deal, I'd bet (no pun intended) he takes it.


Cary - I heard yesterday almost the identical summary from a Grove 23 friend.  Seems Phil is financially strapped which explains his move to the Saudis.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 15, 2022, 03:02:38 PM
I have a hard time believing Phil is broke.  All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more.  Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.

I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off.  He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...


P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..

He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play.  When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on May 15, 2022, 04:43:55 PM
Alan Shipnuck's book about Phil is officially released Tue., May 17, 2022.  Might be interesting.  Amazon describes it as "a juicy and freewheeling biography."  We'll see.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 15, 2022, 06:58:23 PM
A friend visited the Tour's facility in FL recently and remarked about its space-age, opulent digs.  I think that Lefty's major issue has a bit to do with the benefits of the Tour flowing disproportionately to those who have relatively little to do with its success.


Notwithstanding his rhetorical excess, he may have a point.  Ultra-high salaries and benefits, enviable travel perks, and getting in as an integral part of "the show" by folks who don't hit a single shot probably wears thin on those who make their way primarily on the scores they achieve.  How a journeyman like Pat Burke does not enjoy pension benefits despite the many cuts he made prior to injury is puzzling.


The $Billions of past, current and projected revenues from all the data and images which are being created for at least 20+ years should be widely shared, IMO.  If the Tour was in the oil or healthcare business and restrained trade as it is attempting to do, I am sure that the federal government would have stepped in.  $1 Billion in non-pension obligated cash should be more than ample to meet a Black Swan possibly appearing in the future.  Are we not getting a bit tired of blaming Covid for all the crap that we are currently experiencing?  Thank God we haven't quite yet jumped the shark and started blaming Putin for this mess.


I will miss not seeing Michelson at Southern Hills.  He probably would not have made the cut, but it would have added a lot more interest.


Lou


I think I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post. Ken M suggested in an earlier post that without the cash reserves the Tour wouldn't have survived the pandemic which if it is true, is mind-boggling to me. What kind of overheads do they have ?


Niall   
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on May 15, 2022, 08:20:23 PM
Niall, I probably misspoke if I suggested the tour wouldn't have survived.


The article I saw said the reserves allowed the tour to pay purses and support charities at the events held without spectators.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 15, 2022, 08:32:42 PM
I have a hard time believing Phil is broke.  All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more.  Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.

I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off.  He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...


P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..

He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play.  When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.


1. Isn’t it possible that Phil’s net worth is fine, but that he is strapped for liquidity.  Gambling losses are pretty liquid.


2. Phil has earned nearly $100m on the PGA Tour, however long it took. But he is a professional golfer, and is completely entitled to chase dollars, whether or not he’s in financial trouble.  But it would have been far better if he had applied Occam’s Razor in his statements or Shipnuck and the public.  Take the money and go away. Don’t go away mad; just go away.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 15, 2022, 09:35:25 PM
I have a hard time believing Phil is broke.  All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more.  Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.

I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off.  He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...


P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..

He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play.  When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.


1. Isn’t it possible that Phil’s net worth is fine, but that he is strapped for liquidity.  Gambling losses are pretty liquid.


2. Phil has earned nearly $100m on the PGA Tour, however long it took. But he is a professional golfer, and is completely entitled to chase dollars, whether or not he’s in financial trouble.  But it would have been far better if he had applied Occam’s Razor in his statements or Shipnuck and the public.  Take the money and go away. Don’t go away mad; just go away.

AG,

1)  I'd be more inclined to believe the bad financial scenario due to Gambling losses if it hadn't occurred so long ago.  (2010-2014).  It would seem he would have had plenty of time to get that squared away given his total estimated earnings over his career are approx. $800 million when you include endorsements and other ventures. IMO, its nothing more than a red herring...

2)  As for the amount of money he could make from golf itself.  Phil likely weighed that he's only made $6 mill in prize money in the last 4 years on tour, and combined with his age, saw how he could make far far far more in the next 4.  So yes its no brainer from that perspective.

As for the rhetoric thou, leading up to the fallout, I think he just got caught up in the endless back and forth, and perhaps had a legit beef with the tour and wanted to stick it to them...and just opened his mouth one too many times.  But even then I can't say that wasn't deliberate either, as he would also have certainly known the new tour wouldn't last more than one season without some big names...

P.S.  I was a huge Phil fan up to this year, because he was always entertaining to both watch and hear his comments on those silly season events.  But new data requires an updated opinion...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kevin_Reilly on May 15, 2022, 10:05:34 PM
Gambling is a tough area under the tax law.  You can only deduct losses to the extent you have income (so, the worst result you can report on your tax return is break-even).  And you can't carry back or forward gambling losses.


So, if you have a great year and net $1 million in net gambling winnings, you pay full tax on that.  If the following year you lose $1 million, you get no benefit for it.  So, even though you "broke even" gambling in those two years, you would have paid $300K+ in federal taxes in year one, with no break given to you in year two.  In most areas of the tax law, there is a concept of "catching up" on a cumulative basis so you don't get taxes on zero economic gains like that (i.e. you only broke even over the two years), but there is no such thing with gambling wins/losses.


Of course a lot of gambling is under the table, but sports betting and similar conducted through licensed/regulated betting businesses is subject to W-2G reporting...so the winnings will be reported to the IRS.


Who knows what PM's situation is...the above is just a general comment about the taxation of gambling winnings/losses.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Gavrich on May 16, 2022, 11:34:59 AM
Love the way ECCO golf shoes are built and the way they fit. Love the BOA lacing system for my fee, too - not just in ECCO but FootJoy and other brands where it's available.


To throw a lesser-known brand out there, I've been really impressed by the pair of Duca del Cosma shoes I was sent a few weeks ago. Dutch company (Italian designer, hence the name) that does a lot of different styles but the model I have, Churchill, is more traditional-looking, which I prefer.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 16, 2022, 12:42:52 PM
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.


My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.


He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 16, 2022, 01:31:28 PM
The Tour has made Phil a martyr. Even other players who don’t care for him personally will support him now behind the scenes. Or more publicly as did Sergio. Phil skipping the PGA this week is brilliant. The only winners this week are Shipnuck and the Saudi’s. Congrats suckers!!!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 16, 2022, 02:08:33 PM
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.


My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.


He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.


He allegedly committed insider trading using a tip from a guy he owed a million dollar gambling debt too, so that he could pay off the debt. If he was flush why wouldn't he have written a check instead of committing a crime? As stated above, it is an addiction.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 16, 2022, 03:29:31 PM
The Tour has made Phil a martyr. Even other players who don’t care for him personally will support him now behind the scenes. Or more publicly as did Sergio. Phil skipping the PGA this week is brilliant. The only winners this week are Shipnuck and the Saudi’s. Congrats suckers!!!


John,


   Unfortunately, you are sorely incorrect. Phil is laying low for a # of reasons, most of them directly related to both his past, present and future financial position and the current state of his game. Don't fret, you'll be seeing enough of your man-crush soon enough when the LIV Tour starts. Only then does Phil become whole and liquid enough to go back to the lifestyle he so desires. Alan Shipnuck was little more than the author that wrote the biography and carried Phils' no-filter message. Phil was, is, and will always be the brightest super nova of his own universe. He has only himself to blame.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 16, 2022, 03:58:11 PM
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.


My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.


He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.


He committed insider trading using a tip from a guy he owed a million dollar gambling debt too, so that he could pay off the debt. If he was flush why wouldn't he have written a check instead of committing a crime? As stated above, it is an addiction.

I didn't realize Phil was found guilty.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 16, 2022, 04:17:59 PM
Sean -

I do not think PM was ever charged with a crime. I am 99.9% sure he was never convicted of one, but I do believe he was obliged to pay back the profits from the stock trade he made based on information/advice he received from Billy Walters.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phils-insider-trading-escape

DT
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 16, 2022, 04:37:29 PM
I watched the movie, The Gambler, over the weekend. I totally recommend it. I know nothing about Phil's gambling habits other than what we have all read, but these addicted gamblers are addicts and can't control themselves. Who can say what his real losses were in those 4 years and subsequent to 2014? He had to sell his plane which I hear was dear to him and not paying his caddie, the latter is a rounding error to someone who makes $50 million per year.


My prediction is he will play in the LIV events with a huge guarantee and bonus to pay off his gambling debts. With losing all his sponsors and a limited upside earning potential at 51 years of age, this is only opportunity to get himself out of whatever debt he currently has and to put away some retirement money.


He needs to be barred from Vegas like John Daly was, but that will not stop a true gambler. I've been a big Phil fan for many years, and I only wish him well.


He allegedly committed insider trading using a tip from a guy he owed a million dollar gambling debt too, so that he could pay off the debt. If he was flush why wouldn't he have written a check instead of committing a crime? As stated above, it is an addiction.

I didn't realize Phil was found guilty.

Ciao


You are correct. I will edit.





Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 16, 2022, 08:43:53 PM
Looks like they wanted Jack instead of Greg...

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/33927680/jack-nicklaus-says-saudi-arabian-investors-offered-more-100-million-face-liv-golf-invitational-series
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 16, 2022, 11:41:20 PM
The Tour has made Phil a martyr. Even other players who don’t care for him personally will support him now behind the scenes. Or more publicly as did Sergio. Phil skipping the PGA this week is brilliant. The only winners this week are Shipnuck and the Saudi’s. Congrats suckers!!!


John,


   Unfortunately, you are sorely incorrect. Phil is laying low for a # of reasons, most of them directly related to both his past, present and future financial position and the current state of his game. Don't fret, you'll be seeing enough of your man-crush soon enough when the LIV Tour starts. Only then does Phil become whole and liquid enough to go back to the lifestyle he so desires. Alan Shipnuck was little more than the author that wrote the biography and carried Phils' no-filter message. Phil was, is, and will always be the brightest super nova of his own universe. He has only himself to blame.


What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours. The only answer I can come up with is money. People like your friend Alan writes where the most profit lies. Sad indeed, as all men’s sins should have equal value as they all do cost our universe the same in the end. Phil is a man. Phil is a golfer. We are men and we are are golfers. Alan doesn’t write about us. Why? Cause he don’t get paid. If that ain’t the definition of a little bitch, what is?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 16, 2022, 11:47:43 PM
What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.
That might be one of the dumbest things typed on this site.

Maybe I don't care much about Phil's personal life or faults. Maybe you don't. But to be ignorant to why they're more "newsworthy"?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 12:01:36 AM
What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.
That might be one of the dumbest things typed on this site.

Maybe I don't care much about Phil's personal life or faults. Maybe you don't. But to be ignorant to why they're more "newsworthy"?


Profit does no more to condone sin than sin condones profit.


I wasn’t completely disgusted until I learned that the book was being released during the week that Phil would be defending his PGA title.


No denying it. That is a profit motive.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 17, 2022, 12:07:58 AM
Quote
What I don’t understand is why Phil’s personal life and faults are more newsworthy than mine or yours.
I wasn’t completely disgusted until I learned that the book was being released during the week that Phil would be defending his PGA title.
Those are two different things. Of course he'd try to make more of a profit, but pretending you think your life or my life or whomever's is equally as (non-)newsworthy as Phil's is just folly.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 12:34:51 AM
I get why people write about the failings of men for profit. I also get the enjoyment in watching others fail. What I don’t understand is why Phil’s failings as a father and husband are any different than mine.


Like the old sayings goes. If you don’t stand up for the others now they be coming after you next. It’s only a matter of time before some algorithm without a mortgage in Carmel can write a book about any of us for 10 cents a dance. That is scary indeed.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 17, 2022, 04:14:37 AM
Sean -

I do not think PM was ever charged with a crime. I am 99.9% sure he was never convicted of one, but I do believe he was obliged to pay back the profits from the stock trade he made based on information/advice he received from Billy Walters.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phils-insider-trading-escape (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phils-insider-trading-escape)

DT

Thanks. I figured there was plea deal or something with no real punishment when I read the earlier post. I didn't follow the story.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 07:38:09 AM
What percentage of golfing bibliophiles who purchase the Phil book will also pick up the new SI swimsuit issue on this glorious day? How will you choose which to read first? Which would you be most embarrassed to be seen reading on a plane?


The classic rivalry between misogynists and quidnuncs is alive and well in golf town. You must all be proud. On with the juice!!!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on May 17, 2022, 09:01:10 AM
What percentage of golfing bibliophiles who purchase the Phil book will also pick up the new SI swimsuit issue on this glorious day? How will you choose which to read first? Which would you be most embarrassed to be seen reading on a plane?


The classic rivalry between misogynists and quidnuncs is alive and well in golf town. You must all be proud. On with the juice!!!


John, you silly goose! Have you seen what Woke Illustrated is featuring for models?


None of us dirty old men will have more than a passing glance.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 17, 2022, 09:08:04 AM
I get why people write about the failings of men for profit. I also get the enjoyment in watching others fail. What I don’t understand is why Phil’s failings as a father and husband are any different than mine.


Like the old sayings goes. If you don’t stand up for the others now they be coming after you next. It’s only a matter of time before some algorithm without a mortgage in Carmel can write a book about any of us for 10 cents a dance. That is scary indeed.




I don’t plan to buy Shipnuck’s book, nor read it if someone offers me their copy.  I don’t like biographies in general, and I find biographies of most athletes to be profoundly uninteresting, if only because excellence at a sport requires a fairly one dimensional approach to life. Mickelson is at least marginally different because he’s such a strange individual.


All of that said, Mickelson is a public figure (I’m using that as a legal term, btw) and you, John, are not. Mickelson has profited immensely from a life in the public eye, far beyond the millions he’s won on the golf course, and you, John, have not.  So to whatever extent the book will be about PM’s failings as a “father and husband”, I don’t think it likely that they are “coming after you next”. 


But I will promise you this: When an unauthorized biography of John Kavanaugh is written, published, and offered for sale, I will neither buy it, nor read a copy if one is offered to me free of charge.  In fact, they won’t be able to pay me to read a biography of you; I am that committed to your right to privacy.


(Disclaimer: I can be bought, so if I get a BIG offer to read the Kavanaugh exposé, I’ll take the money.  But I won’t feel good about it, and I promise not to enjoy or even believe what I’m reading about your life and times.)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 11:19:50 AM
History has taught us never to underestimate the ability of them to come after you next.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 17, 2022, 11:29:15 AM
History has taught us never to underestimate the ability of them to come after you next.


Who is “them”?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 11:39:00 AM
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 17, 2022, 12:54:46 PM
John,

I appreciate this latest round of stirring up the muck, its been very amusing.

But go read AG's last post again.  He super-nailed it!!

P.S.  I can't figure out if your jealous or glad that you don't have Phil's level of fame.  Sure it has tons of upside, but also a large burden to carry.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 02:11:38 PM
Was “jealous” an edit?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 17, 2022, 02:30:11 PM
Don't worry John. We know who the "little bitch" is on this chatboard. ;)

And speaking of Sports Illustrated:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/the-engaging-addictive-phil-fills-the-void-that-phil-mickelson-himself-created (https://www.si.com/golf/news/the-engaging-addictive-phil-fills-the-void-that-phil-mickelson-himself-created)

"A human being. Flawed and idolized, despised and lionized. Shipnuck does a terrific job of shaping these complexities into a compelling, 249-page read that has already become central to the biggest golf story in 2022."
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 17, 2022, 04:10:51 PM
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.


No, John; when “they” come after groups, “they” pick the group, not the other way around.  And you’re a well-to-do white guy, so nobody is coming for you AT ALL.


Maybe when Shipnuck’s book actually comes out, there will be fact checking done to see if PM has been misrepresented or defamed in some way. So far, I haven’t heard a thing about that book that hasn’t been more or less known about PM for decades now, which is part of the reason I have little interest in reading the book, much less paying for it.  Phil Mickelson has a gambling problem? Wow! Who knew?  Phil Mickelson is for sale to the highest bidder? Glad I was sitting down for THAT news flash!


Up until now, PM has done nothing but promote the book by his statements and actions. As in several US Opens, he’s been his own worst enemy, and in this case, Shipnuck’s unpaid publicist.  PM doesn’t have to worry about “them” coming for him; he’s already cut his own throat.  (And made Alan Shipnuck a boatload of money in the process.)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 04:21:10 PM
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.


No, John; when “they” come after groups, “they” pick the group, not the other way around.  And you’re a well-to-do white guy, so nobody is coming for you AT ALL


What exactly is Phil?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 17, 2022, 04:28:41 PM
We all choose our own thems. That’s how they get us.


No, John; when “they” come after groups, “they” pick the group, not the other way around.  And you’re a well-to-do white guy, so nobody is coming for you AT ALL


What exactly is Phil?


His own worst enemy, which was true long before any of us ever heard of Alan Shipnuck.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 17, 2022, 04:36:18 PM
Like I’m not.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 17, 2022, 08:02:01 PM
Like I’m not.
Point taken, John.
But I think there's a better than even chance that Alan Shipnuck won't make you his next subject.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 18, 2022, 09:16:32 AM
Phil's sponsors prominently displayed must be so excited about this picture...........


https://www.golfwrx.com/676935/how-mickelson-gambled-during-tournaments-with-announcer-who-was-throwing-wadded-up-twenties-out-of-tower/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 18, 2022, 10:03:59 AM
There is more than one new book out about Phil:

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/05/04/tiger-phil-the-book-reviewed-bob-harig/ (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/05/04/tiger-phil-the-book-reviewed-bob-harig/)

"It's a pretty big fall"

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/33916213/pretty-big-fall-how-everything-changed-phil-mickelson-just-one-year
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on May 18, 2022, 11:01:56 AM
Phil's sponsors prominently displayed must be so excited about this picture...........


https://www.golfwrx.com/676935/how-mickelson-gambled-during-tournaments-with-announcer-who-was-throwing-wadded-up-twenties-out-of-tower/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused (https://www.golfwrx.com/676935/how-mickelson-gambled-during-tournaments-with-announcer-who-was-throwing-wadded-up-twenties-out-of-tower/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused)


Those phots were taken in the locker room of Shadow Creek after his victory in his silly The Match game v. Tiger in 2018. I'm sure his sponsors actually enjoyed seeing that one :`).
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jason Topp on May 18, 2022, 11:13:49 AM
I finished the book.  It actually is much more positive about Phil than the released excerpts suggest and provides little related to the gambling that has not already been released. 


I am not sure whether it made me think more positively or more negatively of the guy.  I will always admire his career - particularly his longevity and his ability to come back from losses of the type that typically crush others.  I also have always admired how he makes the game fun.


Nonetheless, he is a strange guy.  Maybe one needs to be strange to compete at that level for 30 years.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 18, 2022, 11:52:49 AM


Nonetheless, he is a strange guy.  Maybe one needs to be strange to compete at that level for 30 years.


The “strangeness” of elite athletes in general, and those with extremely long careers in particular, is their ability to drive themselves to stay motivated, and to compartmentalize their lives. Guys like Brady and Jordan and Nolan Ryan are great examples of this. I think the general public is perhaps blinded by their talent, and doesn’t fully understand the work ethic of guys like that. Maintaining that work ethic into your 30’s and beyond, when your body is beginning to rebel and you have all the money in the world is really “strange”, if you will, and most just can’t do it.




Mickelson has all of that, but a large dose of additional strangeness all his own, and it’s shown up a bunch of different ways over the years.  In that regard, the best comparison I can think of might be Pete Rose. In addition to the obvious gambling parallels/questions, both men have shown a remarkable ability NOT to just shut up at moments when that was clearly the thing to do. 




Fwiw, I am usually not bothered when I find out an athlete gambles, even a lot and for big dollars. They are hyper-competitive people with a lot of money, so no surprise there. That said, Rose and Mickelson seem to have had other things going on where they couldn’t successfully compartmentalize their gambling. Just my take…



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 18, 2022, 05:47:51 PM
I finished the book.  It actually is much more positive about Phil than the released excerpts suggest and provides little related to the gambling that has not already been released. 


I am not sure whether it made me think more positively or more negatively of the guy.  I will always admire his career - particularly his longevity and his ability to come back from losses of the type that typically crush others.  I also have always admired how he makes the game fun.


I just started the book, so far it is ok.


Nonetheless, he is a strange guy.  Maybe one needs to be strange to compete at that level for 30 years.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on May 18, 2022, 10:03:02 PM
I had planned to buy Shipnuck's book, but I read the "look inside" pages on Amazon and decided it wouldn't be worth it.  Take a look and decide for yourself, of course.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike_Trenham on May 19, 2022, 09:09:28 AM
I have read the book.  I give Shipnuck a ton of credit, he handled some salacious items with class and made those who apparently started the rumors the ones to be reviled.


From a golf perspective it’s amazing the number of doubles or series of bogeys Phil made when winning or just coming up short in majors.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 19, 2022, 09:50:06 AM
Is the word sex ever used in the book?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike_Trenham on May 19, 2022, 10:32:32 AM
Is the word sex ever used in the book?


Don’t think so.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 19, 2022, 10:43:10 AM
Is the word sex ever used in the book?


Don’t think so.


That must be heartbreaking for the purchaser. Is reading a library book the moral equivalent to purchasing one? We do pay for the privilege through taxation.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 19, 2022, 12:00:47 PM
Mike,

I was curious along with Barney.  'Salacious' denotes Phil perhaps did a Tiger with sexual improprieties and such...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 19, 2022, 12:04:09 PM
After you write a book like this do you have to cite anything you learned from Wikipedia?


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Salmen on May 19, 2022, 01:18:29 PM
What did Phil say or do that put him in this position?  I think it had to do with Saudi Arabia and the PGA Tour but cannot connect the two from what I've read. Thanks
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on May 20, 2022, 11:49:32 AM
 8)  Hold it... No Sex? any drugs or rock & roll?  How much for fun or profit can this book be?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 23, 2022, 08:25:00 AM
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on May 23, 2022, 09:00:16 AM
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?


He is allowed freedom of speech. Sometimes there are consequences to one’s speech, as he found out. No one is the worst thing he ever said or did but good works do not nullify the other things we say or do.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 23, 2022, 10:14:16 AM
Tommy


Nice sermon but you didn't really answer Cary's question which was what did Phil do to deserve how he was treated, by which I presume Cary means being banned by the Tour and being dropped by his sponsors.


Let me suggest that he sinned against the Tour by threatening their power which is based on their near monopoly position. The Tour sanctioned him as a warning to others, a bit like the way Mexican drug cartels kill the competition and leave the dead bodies on the street, except with less blood obviously.


As for the sponsors, well Phil has suddenly lost a good bit of exposure which makes him a much less attractive proposition, allied to the fact that he described a section of their client/customer base with in plain and stark terms, none of which was complimentary.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 23, 2022, 11:05:32 AM
Niall,

I believe you answered the question in your last post.

1)  Its obvious why the Tour sanctioned him, he was a clear and present threat, and VERY vocal/public in how he went about it.  Of course there was going to be consequences.

2)  His sponsors are ultimately the ones who made the decision to drop him.  Not you, or me, or the other endless masses who follow golf.  So if you want an answer as to the why, you will have to ask them.

P.S.  I don't understand why people struggle to understand the concept of being accountable to the consequences of free speech.  No one is saying he can't call a press conference right now and speak his mind, hell at this point it may do him some good.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 23, 2022, 12:24:34 PM
Kalen


It was Cary who asked the questions, I just attempted to answer them. Yes I agree that it is naive to assume that there might not be some consequences for voicing opinions, but then I'm not sure anyone is actually suggesting otherwise. However that doesn't mean there isn't some validity in the points made by Mickelson irrespective of how anyone might regard him personally.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Hendren on May 23, 2022, 01:07:11 PM
Let me dumb it down for you intellectuals:  Don’t crap where you eat.


Mike
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 23, 2022, 02:43:42 PM
Let me dumb it down for you intellectuals:  Don’t crap where you eat.


Mike


Or to finish the quote - "don't crap where you eat, particularly when there is only one restaurant in town"


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 23, 2022, 04:00:15 PM
Without getting into the thicket that is constitutional law, I don't think it's an overstatement to say that PM's situation is in NO way a constitutional issue of any sort, free speech or otherwise.  This situation is NOT what Madison had in mind when he wrote the First Amendment, and I think a court would dismiss any case coming out of the lost sponsorships or a Tour suspension (if in fact there even is one, which we do NOT know!) as not "justiciable".  There is no legal question here; just business decisions.


But putting that aside, it is probably impossible to calculate the dollars PM has lost BECAUSE he exercised his "right" to freedom of speech.  Far better for him had he been able to just keep his mouth shut and take the Saudi money as others are doing, but that's not who he is.  And he never has been.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 23, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Tommy


Nice sermon but you didn't really answer Cary's question which was what did Phil do to deserve how he was treated, by which I presume Cary means being banned by the Tour and being dropped by his sponsors.


Let me suggest that he sinned against the Tour by threatening their power which is based on their near monopoly position. The Tour sanctioned him as a warning to others, a bit like the way Mexican drug cartels kill the competition and leave the dead bodies on the street, except with less blood obviously.


As for the sponsors, well Phil has suddenly lost a good bit of exposure which makes him a much less attractive proposition, allied to the fact that he described a section of their client/customer base with in plain and stark terms, none of which was complimentary.


Niall

Deserve has nothing to do with it. These days if you don't tow whomever's line you are the enemy. There is virtually no live and let live. People with money and hard line views will sooner kick you in the teeth than buy you a drink and jabber for a spell. It's pathetic and petty.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Elvins on May 23, 2022, 05:33:09 PM
Not sure why people here are focussed on freedom of speech.  If he is suspended from the pga tour the main reason why would be that he got his lawyers to draw up legal documents for a new tour that would poach players from the pga tour.


No person would escape consequences in their workplace for actively organising a competing business to poach other workers.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 23, 2022, 07:34:12 PM
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?
What punishment?
As others said, it's got nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Phil was not prevented from saying what he said. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're free from any repercussions.


P.S.  I don't understand why people struggle to understand the concept of being accountable to the consequences of free speech.  No one is saying he can't call a press conference right now and speak his mind, hell at this point it may do him some good.

Seriously.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Craig Sweet on May 23, 2022, 10:14:33 PM
Phil can speak all he wants, but nobody has to give him a platform for his speech. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Phil Burr on May 23, 2022, 11:04:53 PM
I read Shipnuck's book and my takeaway was, meh.


If you're a Phil fan, there's nothing in there that you didn't already know, or at least have heard, and the book is unlikely to alter your fandom.


If you're not a Phil fan, there's nothing that's going to bring you into his camp.


For me, the best part of the book was one of the opening chapters that were point/counterpoint anecdotes from familiar names that seemed intended to contrast Good Phil/Bad Phil.


Perhaps the author is hedging his bets to avoid being forever ostracized from covering Phil or the entire tour.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Salmen on May 24, 2022, 07:50:25 AM
Does the PGA Tour have strong legal footing when they dictate that it's OK to play in European or Asian events but not Saudi sanctioned tournaments?  I'd be very interested in knowing how the tour would defend lifetime bans in court if players play in Saudi sponsored events and get punished.


Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed? 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 24, 2022, 08:28:25 AM
Does the PGA Tour have strong legal footing when they dictate that it's OK to play in European or Asian events but not Saudi sanctioned tournaments?  I'd be very interested in knowing how the tour would defend lifetime bans in court if players play in Saudi sponsored events and get punished.


Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?


I don’t think the word “normal” can be applied to any of this.  And from what I read, most expect this to end up in court sooner or later.




I don’t think PGA Tour members need waivers to play Euro Tour events; they can ask for up to three waivers a year from the Tour for other events. But the Saudi thing isn’t an event; it’s a rival Tour. 




Legally, it’s pretty murky water, at least to me. The players are independent contractors, but also voluntarily have memberships in the PGA Tour, and the Tour’s bylaws were at least nominally written by players. Courts don’t like restraint of trade, but they also don’t like lawsuits concerning organizational bylaws brought by members who joined that organization voluntarily and agreed to the bylaws they now want to contest.




All of this is why good lawyers make good money, and REALLY good lawyers make REALLY good money!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 24, 2022, 08:54:51 AM
THE PRINCIPAL MISSION OF PGA TOUR, INC. IS THE PROMOTION OF THE SPORT OF PROFESSIONAL GOLF AND THE COMMON INTERESTS OF THE TOURING PROFESSIONAL GOLFER AS WELL AS GROWTH OF THE GAME.

It seems to me that Jay Monaghan and his colleagues are conflating their own organisations dominance and growth with that of the common interest of touring professional golfers and indeed growing the game. Surely it would be in the common interests of touring professionals to have more opportunities to play and additional money being available as prize money ?

Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 24, 2022, 09:00:36 AM
On the subject of free speech. ;)

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/05/20/if-you-think-free-speech-is-defined-by-your-ability-to-be-an-asshole-without-consequence-you-dont-understand-free-speech-but-you-remain-an-asshole/
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 24, 2022, 09:45:15 AM
Phil won the media battle this weekend. He just may be as smart as he always posed to be. How many of us this weekend wished he was playing? Only 10 dudes showed up for the Champions dinner. Both Brady and Barkley were talking about Phil in a positive light. Genius marketing.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 24, 2022, 10:04:41 AM
Phil won the media battle this weekend. He just may be as smart as he always posed to be. How many of us this weekend wished he was playing? Only 10 dudes showed up for the Champions dinner. Both Brady and Barkley were talking about Phil in a positive light. Genius marketing.
John, only you could spin this to be in ANY way favorable to Mickelson.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 24, 2022, 10:39:43 AM
AG,

I'm curious why you think the situation with independent contractors on Tour is unique?

I've seen similar in my 20+ years in the tech biz. Independent contractors are hired to work for a firm, they sign an agreement that they won't work for anyone else (in a related field) until the contract is over/ended.  Very common.

I've even heard of construction contracts for high profile jobs who are restricted to working on that project until completion...

In general, as long as two parties agree to terms and the work/service is legal, I would consider it binding
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 24, 2022, 11:53:31 AM
AG,

I'm curious why you think the situation with independent contractors on Tour is unique?

I've seen similar in my 20+ years in the tech biz. Independent contractors are hired to work for a firm, they sign an agreement that they won't work for anyone else (in a related field) until the contract is over/ended.  Very common.

I've even heard of construction contracts for high profile jobs who are restricted to working on that project until completion...

In general, as long as two parties agree to terms and the work/service is legal, I would consider it binding


Kalen,


I don’t know enough about contract law to answer, and don’t pretend to know if the status of Tour players as independent contractors is in any way different from any other industry.  I do know that from the beginning of this, litigation has been viewed as inevitable.


My point was that courts often take a dim view of lawsuits over bylaws when the suit is brought by a party who joined an organization voluntarily, and agreed to those bylaws as part of the joining process AND is free to leave at any time.


A good example of this is the NCAA, which is a voluntary non-profit that member institutions join voluntarily, and are free to leave at any time. (State high school athletic associations, fwiw, are typically the same.)  Suits by members of such organizations typically don’t get far.  The players are independent contractors who joined the Tour voluntarily, and are completely free to walk away at any moment.  (That the door will lock behind them is another issue, yet to be resolved.)


At the same time, we have a long history of courts also not being tolerant of restraint of trade, which is a likely argument by the players, and a good one.  I think that’s why so many people were surprised when the Tour announced that there would be NO waivers for the Saudi Tour events.  That said, I’m guessing the Tour has really really good attorneys, and must think they are on solid legal ground.


It will be interesting, lengthy, and expensive.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 24, 2022, 12:33:53 PM
I think we certainly agree in principle AG.

And it seems like the following "should" bear weight as well:

1) The PGATour isn't a publicly assessible entity like getting a library card or joining AARP.  Its an extremely small group with very stringent acceptance criteria and upfront agreed upon bylaws to remain a member.  Don't like it, don't play there.

2)  Its not like Players don't have anywhere else to play, Euro Tour, Asian Tour, Korn Ferry...or even the Saudi Tour.  ;)

Closest sports comparison I can think of is the USFL vs NFL suit, and we know how that turned out.  $1
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Leahy on May 24, 2022, 11:38:04 PM
I'm almost finished reading the unauthorized biography of Phil and I don't understand what terrible thing Phil did to warrant the punishment. In this WOKE World, he should be allowed freedom of speech and there is probably alot of truth in what he said. He is very charitable, does that not count?


He is allowed freedom of speech. Sometimes there are consequences to one’s speech, as he found out. No one is the worst thing he ever said or did but good works do not nullify the other things we say or do.
+1
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 25, 2022, 11:04:28 AM
Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion, to sum it up, you are free to speak but live with the consequences.


Now for this question: What should Phil do now? He's 52, he can't really make significant money on the senior tour, his $50 million per year from sponsors is gone, should he sign with the Saudi Tour for $100 million and make a complete break or should he eat humble pie, beg for forgiveness, and try to get his fans and sponsors to rally around him?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Cal Carlisle on May 25, 2022, 11:36:36 AM
Gotta love it when "living with the consequences" entails playing golf around the world for $100 million.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on May 25, 2022, 12:40:07 PM
Some 50 years after the Professional Golfers Association was formed in the mid 1910s, golf's then biggest stars (Nicklaus and Palmer) led the charge to break with tradition and all that the PGA had done for professional golfers in order to create the PGA Tour -- because they felt they deserved a much bigger share of the pie, and wanted to make a lot more money. Now, after another 50 years, history was about to repeat itself -- except that Phil wasn't quite Arnie, Shipnuck wasn't quite Jenkins, the 'other league' was from Saudi Arabia and not from America, and Tiger had already made more money than God.

If St Andrew's tells us all we need to know about gca, then The Godfather tells us all we need to know about modern day life: "It's not personal, Sonny, it's only business".


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on May 25, 2022, 06:37:47 PM
Does the PGA Tour have strong legal footing when they dictate that it's OK to play in European or Asian events but not Saudi sanctioned tournaments?  I'd be very interested in knowing how the tour would defend lifetime bans in court if players play in Saudi sponsored events and get punished.


Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?


Steve, the LIV Tour is planning on playing many events in the US which is a direct conflict with the PGA Tour. The tour has always been against players playing in conflicting events in the US?  I worked a mini-tour tournament in Portland back in the 90s. A PGA Tour player was friends with the organizer and wanted to play in it.  The Tour denied his request for an waiver. He played anyway and said they could fine him. I don’t know if they did, but as he said, not one extra person was going to show up in Detroit if he played there whereas he could help his friend’s event in Oregon.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 25, 2022, 07:02:46 PM

Is it normal for not for profit organizations to act so heavy handed?


Yes.


This article out of Stanford make the argument that $50 million is the bar, but I have seen insanity at the $2-3 million level:


https://ssir.org/articles/entry/how_nonprofits_get_really_big


Autism Speaks was started for the benefit of Christian Wright, and his Mom no longer speaks to anyone at Autism Speaks.


Bob Huntley taught me years ago to only give money to small Mom & Pops.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 25, 2022, 10:16:28 PM
I have not kept up with this thread but I would make a few comments and please excuse me if they have been made before.


There are quite a few members of the PGA Tour who have played in Saudi Arabia and in fact, I was listening to PGA Tour radio and they were saying how great it was that Harold Varner III had won in Saudi Arabia.  How about all of the events played by PGA Tour members as well as LPGA Tour members in China; China certainly does not have an exemplary record with respect o human rights.


So far as Phil is concerned I think that the PGA Tour owes him a great deal and should have quickly spoken with him about this and put it to rest.  I know how important Tiger was and is to the Tour but Phil is not far behind as he was always very approachable to the press and to the fans where Tiger was not.  Perhaps Phil has a gambling problem but Tiger certainly has had problems with respect to his personal life outside of his marriage. 


I really wish that the Commissioner would sit down with Phil and work this out as the fans miss him and love him and what he did last year at the PGA was one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of professional golf.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 26, 2022, 03:18:18 AM
I finished read the unauthorized biography of Phil and I must say, I really do not like the author. While I learned an awful lot about Phil, I grew to like him even more in spite of the negativity brought out by the author.


I personally think the author is an ASSHOLE for attempting to destroy Phil to sell a few books. We are all imperfect human being, we all make mistakes, Phil ran off at the mouth, and for that, he gets destroyed. Sorry, the consequences IMHO are way too severe. My book is going to be thrown in the trash, where is rightfully belongs.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 26, 2022, 08:11:35 AM
There are quite a few members of the PGA Tour who have played in Saudi Arabia and in fact, I was listening to PGA Tour radio and they were saying how great it was that Harold Varner III had won in Saudi Arabia.  How about all of the events played by PGA Tour members as well as LPGA Tour members in China; China certainly does not have an exemplary record with respect o human rights.
One event sanctioned by the European (DP World?) Tour isn't the same as an entire Tour with several events in the U.S.

I know how important Tiger was and is to the Tour but Phil is not far behind as he was always very approachable to the press and to the fans where Tiger was not.

Phil regularly blew off the press, while Tiger almost never did.

I really wish that the Commissioner would sit down with Phil and work this out as the fans miss him and love him

Some fans never loved him. They always saw him as a phony. Many of his fellow players don't love him, either.


I personally think the author is an ASSHOLE for attempting to destroy Phil to sell a few books. We are all imperfect human being, we all make mistakes, Phil ran off at the mouth, and for that, he gets destroyed. Sorry, the consequences IMHO are way too severe. My book is going to be thrown in the trash, where is rightfully belongs.
Oy.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 26, 2022, 09:15:19 AM
Put Shipnuck and his book aside for a moment; that is a separate issue.


Phil Mickelson has been involved in the organization of a rival tour, with events that will run simultaneously with the PGA Tour’s own events.  This is undeniable; he said it himself.


In what world would a business not respond to that?  And really we don’t even know for sure that the Tour HAS responded; we don’t know whether PM’s absence is a suspension or his own decision.  The Masters and the PGA are not even true Tour events; why did PM miss those? Fred Ridley said ANGC did NOT uninvite Phil.  And Phil said he was taking time off; I don't remember reading that the PGA of America banned him from Southern Hills. 


His sponsors dropped him because they thought he was bad for business, which is the other side of the coin of why they signed him in the first place. It’s just business in the most capitalistic sense of that phrase.  The Tour didn’t do that, and the Tour can’t fix that.


Mickelson is in this fix of his own doing, 100%. Thinking that the Tour, or Callaway et al, or Alan Shipnuck, are causes of his problems, or the fixes for them, is just silly.  If I drop an 8 lb sledge hammer on my foot, the guy at fault for my pain in easily findable; he's in the mirror at my house.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 26, 2022, 10:16:02 AM
I stand by my contention that any of us or those we love could be taken down by the written word combined with the whisper of innuendo. If we don’t speak up for a Phil who will be left to speak for us.


Even a Karen isn’t afforded due process.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 26, 2022, 10:25:27 AM
AG,

Well said all on all counts.

In response to Jerry comments, I don't know in what alternate reality there should be an expectation for the PGATour to sit down with Phil and help him get a direct rival/competitor up and running or accommodate him otherwise. Whether Phil acknowledges or not he's a dinosaur and everyone, especially the Tour bosses, know this.

P.S.  No matter how they try to spin it now with "its just a few events", the LIV tour was always a shot across the bow with Norman as General and Phil his right hand man...and this clearly wasn't Norman's first attempt nor likely his last.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on May 26, 2022, 10:36:52 AM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 26, 2022, 10:37:07 AM
I stand by my contention that any of us or those we love could be taken down by the written word combined with the whisper of innuendo. If we don’t speak up for a Phil who will be left to speak for us.


Even a Karen isn’t afforded due process.
Due process?  Seriously?  That has even less to do with this than the red herring of "free speech".  Which is nothing whatsoever...
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 26, 2022, 03:58:48 PM
I have been to a few US Opens as well as probably 10 regular tour events and I always saw Phil as very personable and he had a rule that he would not give autographs before a round but he would stay for an hour or more after a round to sign autographs, etc. which I never saw Tiger do.  What I am suggesting is not that the Tour help him get the competition going.  What I am suggesting is that the Tour should recognize how much he has done for the Tour, and yes he certainly benefited from that relationship, and give him the opportunity to understand what they have problems with and see if he still wants to pursue a relationship with the LIV tour.  I don't know, maybe he feels that the competition has the right to go ahead and start a new tour and that may be the end of it but let's give a little consideration to a guy who was very helpful in making the PGA Tour as successful as it is today. 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 26, 2022, 04:46:06 PM
What I am suggesting is that the Tour should recognize how much he has done for the Tour
I think you and the Tour (and many other people) would be pretty far apart on whether the Tour or Phil have benefited the most there, and who "owes" who anything.

I would say that Tiger did more for the Tour and more for Phil Mickelson than Phil has ever done for the Tour. Phil did things for himself. He signed autographs because it helped his image. That doesn't change the fact that he did sign the autographs, but to pretend it was to "give to the Tour" is just as phony as Phil.

And I don't think the Tour owes a guy who tried to start a rival Tour anything. Phil has made his bed. Now he gets to lie in it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on May 26, 2022, 04:49:34 PM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)


What a saint he is ..
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 26, 2022, 04:55:25 PM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)


What a saint he is ..


Quit reading at the mention of Trump. Another lazy golf writer.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 26, 2022, 05:05:47 PM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)

What a saint he is ..

Can't say i'm a fan of how this played out either.

He heavily disparages other writers for sitting on info, but he sat on the Phil conversation for 3 months (November to February) before he disclosed it the public.  I'm not buying the whole babe in the woods routine...

He is clearly cashing in on Phil's name, and that's fine and all, but to pretend he's an innocent bystander in all this is a joke...



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 26, 2022, 05:09:06 PM
I apologize to FPC member Laz if he found anything on this thread offensive. He drove me to Rustic and then made a hole-in-one for my entertainment. I feel like I've broken a brotherly code. Sorry my friend.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Daryl David on May 26, 2022, 07:18:49 PM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)


What a saint he is ..


Quit reading at the mention of Trump. Another lazy golf writer.


+1
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Craig Sweet on May 26, 2022, 08:13:59 PM
The guy wrote a book. What happens afterwards has everything to do with how people, including Phil, respond to the book. Shipnuck did not take Phil down....the public, and Phil, did.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Schott on May 26, 2022, 08:48:22 PM
Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion, to sum it up, you are free to speak but live with the consequences.


Now for this question: What should Phil do now? He's 52, he can't really make significant money on the senior tour, his $50 million per year from sponsors is gone, should he sign with the Saudi Tour for $100 million and make a complete break or should he eat humble pie, beg for forgiveness, and try to get his fans and sponsors to rally around him?


A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 26, 2022, 08:50:50 PM
A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.
That's essentially a complete guess, and a good chunk of that isn't anything close to liquid.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Schott on May 27, 2022, 10:20:13 PM
A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.
That's essentially a complete guess, and a good chunk of that isn't anything close to liquid.


Does it matter? It's likely that if he never made another cent on the course, he's set for life.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 27, 2022, 10:46:44 PM
Does it matter? It's likely that if he never made another cent on the course, he's set for life.
That may not be true.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on May 28, 2022, 09:35:27 AM
Thanks everyone, very interesting discussion, to sum it up, you are free to speak but live with the consequences.


I seriously doubt he has anywhere close to $400 million


Now for this question: What should Phil do now? He's 52, he can't really make significant money on the senior tour, his $50 million per year from sponsors is gone, should he sign with the Saudi Tour for $100 million and make a complete break or should he eat humble pie, beg for forgiveness, and try to get his fans and sponsors to rally around him?


A quick search shows his net worth is $400,000,000.00. I think he has sufficient bank for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 28, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on May 28, 2022, 05:42:10 PM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.


Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreude over Phil’s current situation he has no more viable information regarding his financial situation than you, I or anyone else that has posted. Even if he’s only got $100 million instead of $400 million with half of that being liquid he should be able to manage.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 28, 2022, 05:59:02 PM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.


If he’s worth 40 million (liquid) why would he have owed  Bones money when they split? Why would he have not just written a check to pay his gambling debts?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 28, 2022, 06:34:45 PM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.


Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreude over Phil’s current situation he has no more viable information regarding his financial situation than you, I or anyone else that has posted. Even if he’s only got $100 million instead of $400 million with half of that being liquid he should be able to manage.

If he has a million he's fine. Phil can still earn well above the average salary and a million is far more than most Americans have.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 28, 2022, 08:01:42 PM
If the $400 mill number is accurate
That's a BIG if.

There's credible talk that much of what Phil does is because he's somewhat hard up for cash. His move to Callaway, this LIV crap… etc.

Anyway, I've just started reading the book. I've continued to hear that if you like Phil, the book will make you like him more. If you dislike Phil, you'll dislike him more.

Shipnuck's interviews haven't impressed me. And I've heard most of what is in the book you could have heard in interviews. Guess I'll see.

Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreude
Dead wrong as usual, Tim.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on May 28, 2022, 08:20:36 PM
If the $400 mill number is accurate
That's a BIG if.

There's credible talk that much of what Phil does is because he's somewhat hard up for cash. His move to Callaway, this LIV crap… etc.

Anyway, I've just started reading the book. I've continued to hear that if you like Phil, the book will make you like him more. If you dislike Phil, you'll dislike him more.

Shipnuck's interviews haven't impressed me. And I've heard most of what is in the book you could have heard in interviews. Guess I'll see.

Despite Erik’s early and often schadenfreude
Dead wrong as usual, Tim.


The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 28, 2022, 08:50:37 PM
Tim, not worth the effort.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 28, 2022, 09:57:13 PM
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)
Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.

I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.

I know how I feel about this. You do not.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on May 28, 2022, 10:08:09 PM
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)
Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.

I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.


I know how I feel about this. You do not.


Seems like your backpedaling. Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 28, 2022, 10:31:45 PM
Saw one of the LPGA players this week had "Saudi Golf" embroidered on her sleeve - uh oh!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 28, 2022, 10:32:34 PM
Seems like your backpedaling.
Nope. I went back and re-read most of my posts in this topic. I'm comfortable in being the one who knows best how I feel.

Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest.
::)

How much less could you care? And "not one?"

My first one shows no malice toward Phil:
The NFL and NBA also make a lot more money than the PGA Tour.


No malice here, just pointing out that Phil's stated numbers are bogus:
That's PGA Tour, not PGA, and the cash reserves are both not nearly as big as Phil thinks they are, nor are they as big now since they helped fund the PGA Tour through the pandemic. That's what those reserves can be used to do - survive stuff like the pandemic while still putting on tournaments.None of Phil's stated numbers are generally close. The Tour pays out a comparable portion of its revenues, not 26% like Phil claimed. Etc. He's full of shit on a lot of what he says. $2B in digital assets? How on earth does he arrive at that number? And do players own their images/video in other sports? No, because the league negotiates the terms of the TV deals (or teams do).The list of BS from Phil goes on and on.


Malice here? Your malice meter must be really sensitive:

I don't like the concept of the unauthorized biography of a living person.
Are you also against all news articles that are unauthorized? Because this isn't all that different. More below.
It seems really invasive and bound to get things wrong- and it becomes part of the record that people take as gospel.
Alan is a reporter, and here's where things are things are the same as the news stuff above: they still have to get sources. They still have to verify things, or report who said what. If Billy Walters is quoted as saying "Phil did this" and Phil didn't do that, his issue isn't with Alan, it's with Billy. And Alan likely also double- or triple-sourced that, even though the one hardest hitting quote might come from Billy. (Or whatever.)
It feels like literary paparazzi and anything negative puts the subject in the position where they get hounded about it and have to answer to it.  i.e. it changes their life.
Phil's life is already "changed" because he's a public figure. He's not exactly shied away from publicity.And Alan asked Phil to be involved repeatedly. Phil, until he called, chose not to be involved. That's a choice he made.Did you object to the Tiger biography from the investigative reporters. I did, but only after the fact because the book got many basic facts wrong, and because I've grown up in the Tiger era, I didn't learn much new. That won't be the case with the Phil book, from what I hear. But I had no issue with them writing it. I only wish it had been better.


Here's another, with so much malice!


His "duty of care" is to the audience, his readers, not the subject here. It's not like Phil is a victim of something here (rape, whatever) and AS is outing him. He reported what the subject said when the subject called him of his own volition.

Are the both of you just waiting for Garland to join in? That'd be the Troll Trifecta.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 29, 2022, 11:43:48 AM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.


If he’s worth 40 million (liquid) why would he have owed  Bones money when they split? Why would he have not just written a check to pay his gambling debts?


Rob,

His gambling issues occurred a decade ago so I presume they have been resolved, but perhaps not.

As for Bones, I also presume Phil is a normal human who is subject to prideful spite from time to time and he certainly wouldn't be the only person on the planet to stiff someone when a relationship fell apart.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 29, 2022, 01:04:22 PM
As for Bones, I also presume Phil is a normal human who is subject to prideful spite from time to time and he certainly wouldn't be the only person on the planet to stiff someone when a relationship fell apart.
I think the stiffing was the cause of the breakup, not a byproduct. I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet but others have, and I think Bones was owed about a million dollars (mainly from the FedExCup bonuses) in back pay, and Phil wasn't paying for a long time, so Bones ended the relationship. I also think I heard Phil may have paid a portion (like $400k, and then maybe another $500k), but was still a few thousand to hundred thousand short.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 29, 2022, 02:10:54 PM
I have a hard time believing his entire net worth is tied up in non easily liquidable assets.

If the $400 mill number is accurate and if just 10% of that was tied up in marketable securities, second homes, property etc....that's still $40 mill. 

Considering the average US household makes it work on less than $70k per year, pretty sure Phil can live on that for the rest of his life, even if he never touched his other long term holdings.


If he’s worth 40 million (liquid) why would he have owed  Bones money when they split? Why would he have not just written a check to pay his gambling debts?


Rob,

His gambling issues occurred a decade ago so I presume they have been resolved, but perhaps not.

As for Bones, I also presume Phil is a normal human who is subject to prideful spite from time to time and he certainly wouldn't be the only person on the planet to stiff someone when a relationship fell apart.


Kalen, you may be right but the investigation was a decade ago that doesn’t mean his gambling ever stopped. I was under the impression that the money he owed Bones was one of the reasons for the break up.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on May 29, 2022, 02:17:41 PM
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)
Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.

I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.


I know how I feel about this. You do not.


Seems like your backpedaling. Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)


Tim,
I think you are the only person who responded to any of his posts. Just ignore them. You fell into his trap……JAT
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on May 29, 2022, 03:14:25 PM
The myriad of posts you have made on this thread are all anti Phil and it’s clear you are enjoying his fall from grace. How am I dead wrong!? ::)
Because I know how I'm feeling about this and "enjoyment" isn't in the same room.

I don't particularly like Phil, but I don't really dislike him. He's one of the possibly five best golfers in history. He's signed about a billion autographs, and even if it was somehow "phony," there are thousands (or hundreds of thousands?) of kids out there who couldn't care less because Phil made their day one time. I don't care about off-the-course shit (rumors) any more for Phil than I do for Tiger. The guy's a human being who… was good at golf. I limit how much I care about him to mostly the golf stuff.


I know how I feel about this. You do not.


Seems like your backpedaling. Rob’s right so I won’t bother to reference any of the posts you made over the last 14 pages of which not one shows anything but malice toward Phil. I could care less what you think or how you are feeling about the topic at hand but at least be honest. ::)


Tim,
I think you are the only person who responded to any of his posts. Just ignore them. You fell into his trap……JAT


Rob-Engaging with him is like not marking and then waving at a short putt. I tell myself not to do it but occasionally it happens. ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 29, 2022, 09:15:08 PM
Rob-Engaging with him is like not marking and then waving at a short putt. I tell myself not to do it but occasionally it happens. ;D
And yet my posts are on-topic, while many of your posts or Rob's posts are simply about me. None of my posts here demonstrate "malice" toward Phil Mickelson. Get a new dictionary.

And get over your mini-obsession with me, eh?  :)  Or just stick to the topics.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Elvins on May 30, 2022, 04:25:24 AM
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable. 


If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on May 30, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable. 


If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything


Excellent; thank you!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on May 30, 2022, 08:04:57 AM
   I don’t understand all the hand ringing.  Has Phil or anyone else said that anything in the book isn’t true?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Niall C on May 30, 2022, 08:30:46 AM
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable. 


If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything


Excellent; thank you!


On the other hand, if you believe everything you say is undeniably the truth and anyone else's view that is contrary is just ignorant drivel, then you are probably beyond having a discussion in any case.


Niall
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Cal Carlisle on May 30, 2022, 02:14:09 PM
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable. 


If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything


Excellent; thank you!


On the other hand, if you believe everything you say is undeniably the truth and anyone else's view that is contrary is just ignorant drivel, then you are probably beyond having a discussion in any case.


Niall


Niall,


As George Carlin said, “My shit is stuff, and your stuff is shit.”
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on May 30, 2022, 07:14:37 PM
The truth relating to phil is uncomfortable. 


If speaking the uncomfortable truth is malice, and ignorant drivel is virtuous, I am not sure the point of having a discussion on anything


Excellent; thank you!


On the other hand, if you believe everything you say is undeniably the truth and anyone else's view that is contrary is just ignorant drivel, then you are probably beyond having a discussion in any case.


Niall


Niall,


As George Carlin said, “My shit is stuff, and your stuff is shit.”

Move your shit so I can put my stuff down.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 31, 2022, 09:33:25 AM
Ha ha,


Well if the behind the scenes facts were well known and verifiable, I suspect this thread wouldn't be 15 pages long now would it!  ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on June 06, 2022, 06:03:00 PM
https://wapo.st/396MGro    don't know if you'll be able to access this wapo article
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Leahy on June 06, 2022, 07:04:12 PM
I have always thought PM was a fake and always cheered against him except on the Ryder Cup. Fake smile, fake thumbs up and now he will fit in well on a fake pro tour. His game speaks for itself and he's earned everything he's accomplished on the course. Outwardly he still comes off as a fake playing on a tour bankrolled by mf'n(his words) thugs. I won't miss him and will continue to wish him nothing but bad luck in the majors he does play in.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 06, 2022, 07:40:21 PM
https://wapo.st/396MGro (https://wapo.st/396MGro)    don't know if you'll be able to access this wapo article
This might be the better article:
https://www.si.com/golf/news/exclusive-phil-mickelson-on-liv-golf-and-his-pga-tour-status
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 06, 2022, 11:31:38 PM
I have always thought PM was a fake and always cheered against him except on the Ryder Cup. Fake smile, fake thumbs up and now he will fit in well on a fake pro tour. His game speaks for itself and he's earned everything he's accomplished on the course. Outwardly he still comes off as a fake playing on a tour bankrolled by mf'n(his words) thugs. I won't miss him and will continue to wish him nothing but bad luck in the majors he does play in.


Tim, I’m confused by your post. Do you like Phil or not? ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: AChao on June 07, 2022, 12:49:37 AM
Just curious … would people be as bothered if the sponsoring entity was the government of Portugal or Taiwan or similar country?  Just curious if it’s Saudi Arabia that people have a problem with or a rival tour or both.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Brian_Ewen on June 07, 2022, 01:53:14 AM

Just curious … would people be as bothered if the sponsoring entity was the government of Portugal or Taiwan or similar country?  Just curious if it’s Saudi Arabia that people have a problem with or a rival tour or both.

Saudi money is a convenient excuse.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 07, 2022, 06:43:21 AM
Saudi money is a convenient excuse.
"Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.

Is the Saudi $ and their goal of sportswashing not more than an "excuse"?

I finished the Phil/Shipnuck book. It was a big pile of "nothing new" here if you've followed Phil's career and listened to some of the Shipnuck podcasts. Too much time was spent re-counting rounds of golf or tournaments, which everyone knows and which aren't that exciting (as they require almost no behind-the-scenes access). The book is as he said: if you were a fan of Phil before, you'll like him a bit more. If you weren't, you'll have a little more ammo (though again, the podcasts give you all of that). If you're like me and don't like or dislike him, well, you'll come out of it not having changed your opinion. I recognize all the good he's done, but also how dumb he's been. Every time I start to feel like I can tolerate and start to like him a little, he slaps a ball in motion on the putting green and then tells people he did it on purpose and to get over it.  ::)  So, meh. Except for Bones, he seems to be genuinely good to the people with whom he's closest, and that's good.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ben Attwood on June 07, 2022, 07:24:58 AM
Saudi money is a convenient excuse.
"Excuse" implies a bit that it's not a valid reason. I think if you sub out "Saudi Arabia" for "Canada" plenty of people would have liked the idea of the Tour (gathering hopefully about 48 of the top 60 or 70 players, not the crappy field they have now), the word "sports washing" wouldn't have been used, and so on.

Is the Saudi $ and their goal of sportswashing not more than an "excuse"?


Yes it is, but not more than the PGA tour sports washing for the USA.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 07, 2022, 07:36:01 AM
Yes it is, but not more than the PGA tour sports washing for the USA.
Oh brother. That's a bullshit type comment to make on more than one level.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 07, 2022, 03:08:59 PM
  I was not aware of the term “sports washing” before this mess, but apparently it’s a thing and considered an unabashed bad thing. Today, Grahame McDowell defended his decision, patting  himself on the back, by saying he hoped he could help the Saudi’s turn their image around, notwithstanding the facts surrounding Khashoggi’s death. As I understand it, that is sports washing.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 07, 2022, 04:11:51 PM
I note that for 3+ decades business and government leaders of all political stripes and from every corner of the world have travelled to Beijing to 'foster ever-closer relationships' with the CCP. And every one of those leaders, when asked about the message that such visits might convey in light of various human rights abuses (Falun Gong, Tibet, Hong Kong etc), justify themselves with essentially the same words:
"Let me be completely frank. I firmly believe that best way to promote lasting human rights is not to isolate China, or to denigrate its forward-looking initiatives, on the climate change and green energy fronts for example, but instead to actively and robustly engage with Communist Party officials on a broad range of socio-political and economic issues, including the vitally important trade and investment file, and thus to expose them -- over time -- ever more fully to the very best of our liberal democratic values and traditions, such as our profound and abiding respect for pluralism, diversity, freedom and human rights".
All of which is to say: McDowell (et.al) is merely borrowing the language and rationales of the business and political class world over -- who have for decades lauded the importance to the global economy of such 'strong partnerships', and have celebrated sporting events such as the 2008 Beijing Olympics that 'bring the whole of world together'.
Do you think they've been right to do so, or instead very wrong?

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 07, 2022, 04:33:46 PM
   Until I became aware of the term sports washing, it always seemed to me that anyone can do whatever they want for whatever money they can make, so long as it’s legal. The public relations fallout is just part of the decision making process. But trying to use the “washing” as a virtue just seems dumb and objectively wrong.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 07, 2022, 05:05:56 PM
Excuse me, Jim - I realized after I posted that it looked like I was referring to you (without the courtesy of mentioning you by name), and asking you those questions specially.
I wasn't. I was just posting a related thought after 16 pages of thread talk, and asking a rhetorical question to us all.

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Terry Lavin on June 07, 2022, 06:07:21 PM
Delete
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tom_Doak on June 07, 2022, 07:22:59 PM
I just thought it was funny that the USGA released a statement today that they'd decided not to disqualify guys from the U.S. "OPEN" based on their Tour affiliation . . . as if they had seriously considered any other choice . . . and as if they are not the most litigation-averse body in the game.


Those "golf leaders" have spent a lot of time around each other the past few years, but I think the TOUR has been counting on more support than they're going to get from the owners of at least three of the four major championships.  They might be able to lean on the PGA of America, especially since so many of the guys who have signed up for the LIV so far are overseas players, but I believe that's all they've got.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 07, 2022, 07:33:59 PM

Do you think they've been right to do so, or instead very wrong?


Does not matter what I "think". I disagree with Phil's decision due to my closeness with the family of Ensign Joshua Watson who maybe saved my son's life, and certainly saved other's lives, when a Saudi Flight Student opened fired at NAS Pensacola in December 2019: https://usnamemorialhall.org/index.php/JOSHUA_K._WATSON,_ENS,_USN (https://usnamemorialhall.org/index.php/JOSHUA_K._WATSON,_ENS,_USN)

That said, this is the USA, Phil is protected by the US Constitution, and I support our system that allows Phil to make a bad decision - in my view. From Rome & Berlin in The Olympics, to now London for golf, international sport has always been a safe and controversial way to engage in conversation with enemies, allies, and sort of allies. (Edit - I forgot Munich '72 in terms of "safe")

Ignatius of Loyola preceded the US Constitution when he said:

“It is dangerous to make everybody go forward by the same road: and worse to measure others by oneself.” ― Saint Ignatius (of Loyola)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on June 07, 2022, 08:15:05 PM
It is not inconceivable that Phil is an idiot.


Bogey


An idiot that will soon be $200 million richer. ;D
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 07, 2022, 08:52:27 PM
People here and over the years have criticized Phil as a fake and a fraud. But in his comments today he came as close to openly talking about significant mental health issues and full blown addictions as any big star ever has; and as anyone who has grappled with addictions and mental health issues knows, it's not a matter of intentionally fooling people or of being a hypocrite, but instead of trying desperately to hide (sometimes especially from yourself) what feels like a dark and ugly secret, and of overcompensating for the feelings of shame and self-contempt always threatening to overwhelm you so that you might be able -- through your outward successes and achievements -- to somehow makes amends, especially to those you love most and who have stood by you. That's what I think, anyways; Phil is no more -- or less -- a moral failure than I am. What separates PM from many other addicts and troubled souls is only that he has a talent and is in a profession that society has decided to reward incredibly handsomely, and to treat with kid gloves. I won't hold that against him.


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on June 07, 2022, 10:25:30 PM
Great couple of posts my Friend.


I need to get to BC!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 07, 2022, 10:29:53 PM
   I understand that an addiction to a drug or tobacco can be caused by a chemical dependence and become a disease and not necessarily a matter of free will. Is addiction to gambling of the same ilk?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on June 07, 2022, 10:37:49 PM
In that there becomes a complete severing from reality, I’d say yes…
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim_Coleman on June 07, 2022, 11:30:02 PM
   I think I’m asking a science question, not an opinion question.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on June 07, 2022, 11:31:43 PM
   I understand that an addiction to a drug or tobacco can be caused by a chemical dependence and become a disease and not necessarily a matter of free will. Is addiction to gambling of the same ilk?


Don't quote me, I'm not a psychologist, just a biologist turned writer, but there are plenty of chemicals produced by your body that are addictive in one way or another.


Dopamine, for instance.  It's a factor in real addictions like drugs, but exercise can produce it, and it's one of best ways to get out of mild depression.  I have suffered for long time, and my wife will sometimes say, "Go for a bike ride, you need it."  three or four hours on a bicycle work wonders for me.


Gambling, and the thrill of it, absolutely have to produce chemicals that make some people feel alive.  Being a risk-taker on the golf course would as well.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 08, 2022, 05:51:28 AM
People here and over the years have criticized Phil as a fake and a fraud. But in his comments today he came as close to openly talking about significant mental health issues and full blown addictions as any big star ever has; and as anyone who has grappled with addictions and mental health issues knows, it's not a matter of intentionally fooling people or of being a hypocrite, but instead of trying desperately to hide (sometimes especially from yourself) what feels like a dark and ugly secret, and of overcompensating for the feelings of shame and self-contempt always threatening to overwhelm you so that you might be able -- through your outward successes and achievements -- to somehow makes amends, especially to those you love most and who have stood by you. That's what I think, anyways; Phil is no more -- or less -- a moral failure than I am. What separates PM from many other addicts and troubled souls is only that he has a talent and is in a profession that society has decided to reward incredibly handsomely, and to treat with kid gloves. I won't hold that against him.


Peter,


Good morning. That was a really insightful post. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: archie_struthers on June 08, 2022, 08:01:28 AM
 ;D Lot of good stuff here guys , thanks to all.  Gambling is an addiction for sure , seen lots of it here in Atlantic City over the years. Moderation of course being the need. It's fun to have some action on the course but limits you know


Phil doesn't deserve a lot of sympathy in my eyes. His life has been full of success and joy along with the suffering most of us see at one time or another. He's a great player for sure. I'm all for playing wherever you want but if it's a political problem with the toour address it publicly. He's certainly got a podium to speak from.


It sure looks like a money grab by Norman , Phil and all the leaders for sure. If Pablo Escobar had a tour with cartel money many of these guys would "sign on" , just saying
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Don Mahaffey on June 08, 2022, 11:20:39 AM
If we were to review all sponsors on all major tours, how many do you think we’d find that have sone business or investment ties to Saudi Arabia?


If sone do but we don’t know about it, is it ok?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on June 08, 2022, 11:30:48 AM
If we were to review all sponsors on all major tours, how many do you think we’d find that have sone business or investment ties to Saudi Arabia?


If sone do but we don’t know about it, is it ok?


Business in or investment ties to the S.A. Kingdom are very different than being wholly sponsored by the country's sovereign wealth fund. Several different degrees make quite the difference.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Don Mahaffey on June 08, 2022, 11:43:24 AM
Steve, that’s an interesting take.


My opinion on the matter is if people are making money or enjoying entertainment from investments or entities with business ties to the SA Kingdom, but don’t know about it, it’s not an issue.
Kind of like, we want your money, but please keep it on the down low.  It’s the idea that they have come out that really is bothersome.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lapper on June 08, 2022, 02:26:25 PM
Steve, that’s an interesting take.


My opinion on the matter is if people are making money or enjoying entertainment from investments or entities with business ties to the SA Kingdom, but don’t know about it, it’s not an issue.
Kind of like, we want your money, but please keep it on the down low.  It’s the idea that they have come out that really is bothersome.


Don,


  You aren't wrong, however, a large, large part of American enterprise is globalized and thus willing to do business in every country willing to conduct profitable trade, save for those federally sanctioned (i.e. Russia,North Korea, etc..). Few, if any, companies, care where their products are sold, so long as the bills are paid.


  The real issue here is the direct investment arm of the ruling Saudi family has directed nearly a billion dollars to establishing a competitive professional golf tour. Right or wrong, there is little daylight between the state and the LIV. As for various US businesses conducting normal commerce, there is often a wide berth created between seller, buyer and political association or incrimination.


  Hope all is well with you!
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 08, 2022, 03:13:11 PM
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on June 08, 2022, 03:51:19 PM
Steve, that’s an interesting take.


My opinion on the matter is if people are making money or enjoying entertainment from investments or entities with business ties to the SA Kingdom, but don’t know about it, it’s not an issue.
Kind of like, we want your money, but please keep it on the down low.  It’s the idea that they have come out that really is bothersome.


Don,


  You aren't wrong, however, a large, large part of American enterprise is globalized and thus willing to do business in every country willing to conduct profitable trade, save for those federally sanctioned (i.e. Russia,North Korea, etc..). Few, if any, companies, care where their products are sold, so long as the bills are paid.


  The real issue here is the direct investment arm of the ruling Saudi family has directed nearly a billion dollars to establishing a competitive professional golf tour. Right or wrong, there is little daylight between the state and the LIV. As for various US businesses conducting normal commerce, there is often a wide berth created between seller, buyer and political association or incrimination.


  Hope all is well with you!

If you are dealing with Saudi you are dealing with the state. Saudi is nothing more than a glorified oil company.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on June 08, 2022, 05:06:28 PM
Worthwhile Golfers Journal podcast with Tom Coyne and Alan Shipnuck on "the Saudi Situation."

https://www.golfersjournal.com/editorial/inside-the-saudi-situation/
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on June 09, 2022, 11:04:33 AM
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.


Maybe a concern that Paulina will be abandoning her current wardrobe for one more attuned to Saudi tastes...or not.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 10, 2022, 11:18:23 AM
Excellent interview with Alan Shipnuck here:

https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5 (https://www.insider.com/phil-mickelson-biography-alan-shipnuck-interview-saudi-golf-league-2022-5)


What a saint he is ..


Proved himself out again .. just couldn't sit one out.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Stewart Abramson on June 10, 2022, 11:50:37 AM
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.


Double naught. As in 007
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JMEvensky on June 10, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Are you afraid that the Saudi’s have turned DJ. Talk about a double knot spy.


Double naught. As in 007




Jethro Bodine says thanks.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on June 10, 2022, 12:31:00 PM
 8)  JB is probably wondering how many pages this thread will go to... maybe not


Beyond Jethro subterfuge... Where was all this moral outrage when the Ladies were funded by the Saudis?


Aramco Saudi Ladies International presented by Public Investment Fund
https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022









Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on June 10, 2022, 12:35:38 PM
8)  JB is probably wondering how many pages this thread will go to... maybe not


Beyond Jethro subterfuge... Where was all this moral outrage when the Ladies were funded by the Saudis?


Aramco Saudi Ladies International presented by Public Investment Fund
https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022 (https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/eamon-lynch-why-arent-women-criticized-like-the-men-for-taking-saudi-money-its-need-vs-greed/ar-AAQot1T
It's need vs greed.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pete_Pittock on June 10, 2022, 06:01:31 PM
I think we will get a good readout of the general popularity on the Thursday of the US Open, which will be Mickelson's birthday. What will they be singing? If he gets an afternoon tea [sic] time it might be ughly


Will he be recognizable without all his logos?  Probably, well suited dressed in black.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Wagner on June 11, 2022, 12:05:45 PM
8)  JB is probably wondering how many pages this thread will go to... maybe not


Beyond Jethro subterfuge... Where was all this moral outrage when the Ladies were funded by the Saudis?


Aramco Saudi Ladies International presented by Public Investment Fund
https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022 (https://www.golfsaudi.com/en-us/asli-2022)


Exactly .. and now it's even worse because they have to admit they weren't paying attention to the women ... you'd think the view would be crystal clear from the moral high horse ..
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Cliff Hamm on June 11, 2022, 03:50:28 PM
From the NY Post -  a 9/11 surivor's group take on Mickelson, et al.:


https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Carl Johnson on June 11, 2022, 04:48:10 PM

From NY Post -- A. Shipnuck tossed from Michelson press conference

https://nypost.com/2022/06/09/alan-shipnuck-physically-removed-from-phil-mickelson-presser/
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Rob Marshall on June 11, 2022, 07:51:42 PM
From the NY Post -  a 9/11 surivor's group take on Mickelson, et al.:


https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/ (https://nypost.com/2022/06/11/phil-mickelson-other-liv-golf-players-ripped-by-9-11-group/)


Can you imagine if the open was in NYC this year?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Jim Sullivan on June 11, 2022, 07:59:48 PM
Boston’s no slouch
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim_Cronin on June 11, 2022, 08:07:24 PM
Boston’s no slouch


True that. They're not exactly bashful in the Fen.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on June 12, 2022, 10:29:05 AM
 8)  The outraged will get their chances to voice their sentiments soon enough in Metro NY/NJ end of July and in Boston beginning of Sept.


I guess its not Shell's Wonderful World of Golf anymore... like Sam & Jack at Pebble: https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho

Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Pete_Pittock on June 12, 2022, 03:31:17 PM
8)  The outraged will get their chances to voice their sentiments soon enough in Metro NY/NJ end of July and in Boston beginning of Sept.


I guess its not Shell's Wonderful World of Golf anymore... like Sam & Jack at Pebble: https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho (https://youtu.be/qMnrQYyxOho)


Oregon is antifa country, we won't have wait beyond the end of this month, unless everyone is stuck in the muds of the parking lots (fields).
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on June 12, 2022, 08:37:01 PM
 8)  Hey Pete,


Didn't mean to slight potential outrage directed to LIV at Pumpkin Ridge in the great NW, just haven't really seen the ANTIFA crowd actually voice anything coherently between bashing people with skateboards, using fireworks offensively, and setting dumpster fires...


Best for 2022
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 12, 2022, 09:25:04 PM
Didn't mean to slight potential outrage directed to LIV at Pumpkin Ridge in the great NW, just haven't really seen the ANTIFA crowd actually voice anything coherently between bashing people with skateboards, using fireworks offensively, and setting dumpster fires...


I called the ANTIFA hotline; they related:  "Sorry the message was unclear - bringing airhorns, boxes of Japanese beetles, kerosene and sacks of kudzu seeds, just the same...are skateboards 'cart path only?'"
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Leahy on June 13, 2022, 06:15:13 PM
Could the ANTIFA crowd be any worse than the crowd at the 16th in Phoenix?
I am sure Sergio would rather deal with them over the crowd at the Open at Bethpage Black.  ::)
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Mike Sweeney on June 13, 2022, 06:48:47 PM
I am sure Sergio would rather deal with them over the crowd at the Open at Bethpage Black.  ::)


I like Sergio, he expresses his true feelings, and can take a joke:


https://www.golfwrx.com/226693/sergio-garcia-surprises-golfers-at-bethpage-black/


(https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/sergio.jpg)



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Craig Sweet on June 13, 2022, 08:19:59 PM
Ho ho ho...ha ha ha...


If it weren't for Antifa Europe would still be under Nazi rule.  But, hey, most posters here either take blood money too, or have short memories.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/sports/golf/golf-liv-pga-saudi.html
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Steve Lang on June 14, 2022, 08:58:38 AM
 8)   CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?


MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...


JUST SAYING.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 14, 2022, 06:51:52 PM
8)   CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?

MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...

JUST SAYING.


Kudos to your dad for putting it on the line to defeat fascist forces, just like today's American Trumpublicans. But whether he likes, would have liked, may not have liked, is raging against liking... or not, he contributed to defeating anti-democratic, fascist forces, The Axis powers, whose troops he battled, was fascist and in the basic definition he operated as an ANTI FASCIST.  Unfortunately we don't or can't control the labels we get wrapped up with.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Leahy on June 14, 2022, 07:09:00 PM
8)   CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?

MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...

JUST SAYING.


Kudos to your dad for putting it on the line to defeat fascist forces, just like today's American Trumpublicans. But whether he likes, would have liked, may not have liked, is raging against liking... or not, he contributed to defeating anti-democratic, fascist forces, The Axis powers, whose troops he battled, was fascist and in the basic definition he operated as an ANTI FASCIST.  Unfortunately we don't or can't control the labels we get wrapped up with.
Anti-democratic, fascist forces sounds like the current Republican party to me. :P
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 14, 2022, 07:23:12 PM
8)   CRAIG, I DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE NYT, CAN YOU SUMMARIZE REFERENCED ARTICLE?

MY DAD FOUGHT IN WWII, WENT IN ON A GLIDER ON D-DAY, I DON'T THINK HE'D BE TOO THRILLED TO BE LUMPED IN WITH THE MODERN DAY ANTIFA CROWD...

JUST SAYING.


Kudos to your dad for putting it on the line to defeat fascist forces, just like today's American Trumpublicans. But whether he likes, would have liked, may not have liked, is raging against liking... or not, he contributed to defeating anti-democratic, fascist forces, The Axis powers, whose troops he battled, was fascist and in the basic definition he operated as an ANTI FASCIST.  Unfortunately we don't or can't control the labels we get wrapped up with.
Anti-democratic, fascist forces sounds like the current Republican party to me. :P


Not wrong, Steve Bannon is proud of being MAGA's Leni Riefenstahl ... but what the kind of thread is this, which does not discuss gca and prompts people to extrapolate what dead relatives were or weren't...


LIV is a paid exhibition, which is a shit design for modern golf; the fact the Saudis are behind it and several whining millionaires - the biggest list of chokers, past primes and never was' available today-- makes it easy to dislike.


Meanwhile, these Tour grievances that a handful have here...what's your skin in the game, pal? 
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 14, 2022, 07:50:21 PM
My grievance with the Tour is that I believe golf would be more fun for me if the professional tour never existed. Now the commissioner wants me to feel like I’ve lost my moral compass if I watch anything else. You can’t beat labor by shaming the client.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Leahy on June 14, 2022, 08:16:19 PM
My grievance with the Tour is that I believe golf would be more fun for me if the professional tour never existed. Now the commissioner wants me to feel like I’ve lost my moral compass if I watch anything else. You can’t beat labor by shaming the client.
So your against the LIV tour and all the rest, DP, KORN, LPGA etc. too right? What about the USGA and R&A, they are tours also right? What would you have an open every week with qualifying and who would handle sponsorship and rules, planning?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 14, 2022, 09:16:01 PM
I’m for enjoying my entertainment options. When the Demolition Derby came to town they didn’t ask me to use my car. Oh, and to make sure that it is in perfect condition when they come to pick it up.



Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Tim Martin on June 15, 2022, 05:56:09 AM
Mickelson and Dechambeau who were in different practice round groups didn’t get much crowd reaction yesterday when playing off of 1 tee. I didn’t see any interaction on the practice putting green between Phil and other players. He was getting some fan appreciation out on the golf course when we saw him and I didn’t hear any boos. Finally no shock that Kevin Na played the practice round with Phil.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 15, 2022, 08:58:22 AM
Mickelson and Dechambeau who were in different practice round groups didn’t get much crowd reaction yesterday when playing off of 1 tee. I didn’t see any interaction on the practice putting green between Phil and other players. He was getting some fan appreciation out on the golf course when we saw him and I didn’t hear any boos. Finally no shock that Kevin Na played the practice round with Phil.
If you go to the Masters and listen to others, you realize how many people are there "for something to do" who aren't really truly deep golf fans. It's a place to be seen, a thing to do, an event. The same is true at places like U.S. Opens, etc., so I think there are a LOT of spectators — and this includes golf fans — who only know "hey, that's Phil Mickelson!" and don't know a thing about Saudi Arabia. He'll be cheered around the place, and we're (the "stronger" or "deeper" golf fans for lack of better words) the only ones who know a lot about this stuff.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on June 15, 2022, 10:15:15 AM
Time for a new NEWS cycle, this is getting boring
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 15, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
Boring until the commish plays his next moral hold card.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 15, 2022, 04:47:06 PM
Time for a new NEWS cycle, this is getting boring
To you, but you don't think Phil did anything "wrong." It's only getting started. Next March/April will be interesting.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: A.G._Crockett on June 18, 2022, 09:47:05 AM
Charles Barkley for the win, as usual:


“If somebody offered me $200 million, I’d kill a relative, even one I liked.”
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 18, 2022, 12:26:48 PM
Charles Barkley for the win, as usual:
“If somebody offered me $200 million, I’d kill a relative, even one I liked.”
:)
Thanks for that. I love Charles Barkley -- the sanest man in sports broadcasting, and an authentically good person.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: David_Tepper on June 18, 2022, 01:47:22 PM
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)


“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Ken Moum on June 18, 2022, 02:19:39 PM
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)


“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”


The point he makes about those guys losing their edge is interesting.  I think he's right,  especially with guys who've said they're not enjoying the grind...like Dechambeau.


Something I keep wondering is what happens when/if they sign up 100 players and only 48 can play?
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on June 18, 2022, 02:22:26 PM
Time for a new NEWS cycle, this is getting boring
To you, but you don't think Phil did anything "wrong." It's only getting started. Next March/April will be interesting.


I'm not saying Phil did nothing wrong, he obviously did, but what I'm saying, at 52 years old, he is no longer competative, he was 11 over at the US Open, he earned nothing. He has Zero sponsors, so the money grab at $200 million, I'm guessing that more than half on this board would take that in a second.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: jeffwarne on June 18, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)


“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”


The point he makes about those guys losing their edge is interesting.  I think he's right,  especially with guys who've said they're not enjoying the grind...like Dechambeau.


Something I keep wondering is what happens when/if they sign up 100 players and only 48 can play?


gotta have a few expendables for "attrition"....
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 18, 2022, 05:48:34 PM
I'm not saying Phil did nothing wrong, he obviously did, but what I'm saying, at 52 years old, he is no longer competative, he was 11 over at the US Open, he earned nothing. He has Zero sponsors, so the money grab at $200 million, I'm guessing that more than half on this board would take that in a second.
Phil could have earned $20-30M+ or so per year for 20+ years if he had kept sponsors and just continued to be kind of a modern day Arnold Palmer. Given the choice between $200M and maybe double or triple that, albeit spread out, I'd probably have taken the greater amount, and that's without considering who is paying.

And to the 100 vs. 48 stuff… they haven't "signed" some of the lower players. I think they know they might play only an event or two.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Sean_A on June 18, 2022, 07:04:50 PM
I'm not saying Phil did nothing wrong, he obviously did, but what I'm saying, at 52 years old, he is no longer competative, he was 11 over at the US Open, he earned nothing. He has Zero sponsors, so the money grab at $200 million, I'm guessing that more than half on this board would take that in a second.
Phil could have earned $20-30M+ or so per year for 20+ years if he had kept sponsors and just continued to be kind of a modern day Arnold Palmer. Given the choice between $200M and maybe double or triple that, albeit spread out, I'd probably have taken the greater amount, and that's without considering who is paying.

And to the 100 vs. 48 stuff… they haven't "signed" some of the lower players. I think they know they might play only an event or two.

Could and if may well be much less than his payday.

Ciao
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on June 18, 2022, 07:28:56 PM
Could and if may well be much less than his payday.
Perhaps. But even if they end up being about the same amount… there's still the damage done to his reputation/image/brand, whatever you want to call it.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: JohnVDB on June 18, 2022, 07:39:04 PM
Jimmy Dunne on the LIV Tour:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive (https://www.si.com/golf/news/one-of-golfs-most-connected-amateurs-has-much-to-say-on-liv-and-none-of-it-positive)


“I don't like it when they say they're 'growing the game,’” Dunne said. “That's crap. I don't even like it when they say 'I have to do what's best for my family.' I really wonder how many of those guys, the lifestyle that they were living was so horrible that their family needed them to do this. Just say, 'I'm at a point in my career where I (want to) make five times as much money against much weaker competition and play less.' Just tell the truth. Don't cover it with a lot of crap.”


My other favorite quote from the article was:


Dunne said LIV CEO Greg Norman “is the luckiest man in the world, because he had this vendetta his whole career and he found someone to bankroll it.”
[/size][/color]
[/size]That is the entire point of the LIV tour. Norman and Phil are pissed at the tour which made them rich and will do what they can do to destroy it and don’t care who gets hurt in the process. [/color]
[/size][/color]
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: V. Kmetz on June 18, 2022, 09:08:50 PM
A friend at the tournament said Mickelson looked like a person sneaking onto the course, afraid that the ranger would pull up at any moment to toss him out.  I have no better speculation or forecast; what I saw was a figure who is depressed/humiliated...that grizzled beard, fallen shoulders and Fuzzy Zoeller glasses --- the exact opposite of the bright eyed Lefty who was youthful in all his years.


There's like a silent understanding between him and all the assembled - "we know what you're all about." 


I haven't read it in a while, but it's sorta like the original Malamud version of "The Natural," where Hobbs takes the Judge's money, has a change of heart in his last at bat, but strikes out anyway... Mercy tracks down his shooting 16 years ago and his acceptance of the bribe, upon which Hobbs is likely to be thrown out of baseball and his memory/stats erased from the record book.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: Peter Pallotta on June 19, 2022, 12:11:11 AM
VK - a good and affective post. I'm not someone who ever thought Phil a fake - at least, no more a fake than anyone else. But as per you description, what I saw watching him this week was someone who has dropped a long-held and dominant persona -- and only partly by choice. I think this process is a natural one, and befits the second half of life; but to watch a popular sports figure as his public narrative unravels so completely before our collective eyes is quite remarkable, and actually makes me a little sad. The swashbuckler of my youth seemed so naked and alone out there.


Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: cary lichtenstein on June 19, 2022, 12:15:00 PM
"There is no joy in Mudville, mighty Casey just struck out"


The beard makes him look like a grubby guy.
Title: Re: O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights
Post by: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2022, 12:58:03 PM
Sometimes a little hair on the lip reminds your brain to keep the pie hole shut. It wasn’t so long ago that what he thought was a private conversation turned his life upside down. He owes us nothing after we cashed our hate checks as we embarked on a short lived moral vacation.