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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean Walsh on December 30, 2021, 11:58:25 PM

Title: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean Walsh on December 30, 2021, 11:58:25 PM
For your reading pleasure. I have no insight into the facts here but it sets up as an interesting squabble. If one sided at this point.


https://www.planetgolf.com/news/cape-wickham-links-the-inside-design-story (https://www.planetgolf.com/news/cape-wickham-links-the-inside-design-story)


For what it’s worth this is the answer the Cape Wickham website has. Also includes an essay from Darius Oliver that is best described as a more restrained version of the first link above.


https://www.capewickham.com.au/course-architects/ (https://www.capewickham.com.au/course-architects/)
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on December 31, 2021, 12:57:06 AM
For your reading pleasure. I have no insight into the facts here but it sets up as an interesting squabble. If one sided at this point.


https://www.planetgolf.com/news/cape-wickham-links-the-inside-design-story (https://www.planetgolf.com/news/cape-wickham-links-the-inside-design-story)


For what it’s worth this is the answer the Cape Wickham website has. Also includes an essay from Darius Oliver that is best described as a more restrained version of the first link above.


https://www.capewickham.com.au/course-architects/ (https://www.capewickham.com.au/course-architects/)
Sean,


Honestly, I didn’t react well to reading this article. IMO, it doesn’t serve Darius well and it would have been better not written.


Tim
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean Walsh on December 31, 2021, 01:35:26 AM
Tim,
My initial reaction was much the same.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David_Elvins on December 31, 2021, 01:35:39 AM
Sean,
Honestly, I didn’t react well to reading this article. IMO, it doesn’t serve Darius well and it would have been better not written.
Tim


I thought the article offered an interesting insight into the design process. 


So much that is written about the golf design business is heavily sanitised and the article is worthwhile for its refreshing candour, imo.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on December 31, 2021, 02:09:14 AM
Sean,
Honestly, I didn’t react well to reading this article. IMO, it doesn’t serve Darius well and it would have been better not written.
Tim
David,



I thought the article offered an interesting insight into the design process. 


So much that is written about the golf design business is heavily sanitised and the article is worthwhile for its refreshing candour, imo.
David,


I didn’t learn anything about the design process from this article. Nothing whatsoever.


Darius needed a friend to candidly tell him the article simply makes him look bad and to junk it. That he didn’t is a shame because in the past he has done some very good writing and publishing.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on December 31, 2021, 02:18:25 AM
Sean,
Honestly, I didn’t react well to reading this article. IMO, it doesn’t serve Darius well and it would have been better not written.
Tim
David,



I thought the article offered an interesting insight into the design process. 


So much that is written about the golf design business is heavily sanitised and the article is worthwhile for its refreshing candour, imo.
David,


I didn’t learn anything about the design process from this article. Nothing whatsoever.


Darius needed a friend to candidly tell him the article simply makes him look bad and to junk it. That he didn’t is a shame because in the past he has done some very good writing and publishing.

I think the article is purposely vague. The idea is not to reveal who did what, but to confirm that Oliver deserves co-design credit.

Ciao
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on December 31, 2021, 02:25:47 AM
Sean,


So is this the modern version of the Bethpage Black design credit debate?
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on December 31, 2021, 02:45:46 AM
Sean,


So is this the modern version of the Bethpage Black design credit debate?

I have no idea. I just thought the article was trying to achieve the specific purpose of co-design credit. I don't even know if the players disagree. Scott is right. A public statement from M DV indicating that he deserves sole credit would be helpful. The article drops the reader in the middle of a story without a clear reason as to why clarification is necessary.

Ciao
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on December 31, 2021, 02:58:13 AM
Sean,


So is this the modern version of the Bethpage Black design credit debate?

I have no idea. I just thought the article was trying to achieve the specific purpose of co-design credit. I don't even know if the players disagree. Scott is right. A public statement from M DV indicating that he deserves sole credit would be helpful. The article drops the reader in the middle of a story without a clear reason as to why clarification is necessary.

Ciao
Sean,


I think the Bethpage Black (Tillinghast vs Joe Burbeck) debate provides useful background.


Whether Burbeck deserves any design credit, I don’t know. But, in the debate that played out here on GolfClubAtlas, obviously it wasn’t Burbeck himself trying to assert the case for him getting some or all the credit. Other people did so.


Darius should have learned from that, IMO. It would have come across much better if he let someone else make the case for him. His approach was a big turnoff, at least for me.

Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 31, 2021, 03:34:21 AM
I have never met Darius but before he was ever involved in design work, his website consultancy claims were a little annoying, positioning him as the leading international voice and specifically rating a handful of golf course architects as the only ones worth considering. There was a lot of self-promoting bluster.


One of those architects was Mike DeVries… Perhaps Darius learned through this process that he shouldn’t have been so quick to put some architects on a pedestal at the expense of all others?


However, if what he writes is true, I can understand his frustration. I am sure he has only written it because no-one else did. And he’s not the first junior partner (in design terms) to see their name sidelined as time goes on and publications focus only on the marquee name. That has happened elsewhere on a regular basis… But in the end, you have to depend somewhat on the Client. If the Client actively reminds visitors of the co-design credentials, then most commentators will pick up on that.


Darius needs to pick what side he falls on. He apparently doesn’t consider himself a golf course architect. Yet he is happy to act as a consultant to advise on who should design a project. Until he clears that up, he might struggle. He should be one or the other.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Peter Pallotta on December 31, 2021, 08:34:18 AM
What I noticed is that only one sentence references the routing. We learn that MdV has been hired as architect, and in the following line that "Duncan, Mike and I then produced the final routing." (Would MdV's proposed routing have been one of the reasons he was hired? Do a client's wishes/input often lead to revisions in such proposals?) And that's it: one short sentence about the design element that's at the very heart-centre of golf course architecture, and about the design function that's long been considered the course architect's most important and defining skill and talent. That stood out for me.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim Martin on December 31, 2021, 09:42:11 AM
Why make the claim so long after the course opened? I don’t know that Mike DeVries needs to make a statement so much as the other players involved. It’s not a very graceful recounting of the supposed process.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: jeffwarne on December 31, 2021, 09:48:36 AM
History does often indeed "get twisted"-sometimes innocently as memories fade, sometimes via vagueness due to the politics of relationships and/or getting things done, and sometimes by revisionists with an agenda.


Which is why I often laugh when I see raging debates about architectural history supported by 100 year old newspaper articles,as if it never occurs to the debaters that the "press" very often gets things wrong, especially if they are not experts in the given field, and the reporters either makes a naive mistake, simply take an innocent error filled second hand account as gospel without further fact checking from the actual parties involved.
In my experience,a good bit of folklore about a club comes from caddies passing down stories to players, some of which once had a partial basis in fact ;)
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Peter Pallotta on December 31, 2021, 11:02:25 AM
JW -
that's true. In this case, though, it seems to me that so many words were devoted to what happened before the architect arrived on the scene and to what happened after he left -- so little of which has much to do with design credit.

Isn't it the case that, from the time of Colt and Mackenzie and Ross etc , the 'architect of record' is the one who routes the course? Isn't that why the course (the design) remains 'theirs' even after other hands have reshaped bunkers or removed trees or tweaked greens or added tees?

What happens before the routing (before the architect 'is there') seems to me the work of a developer or consultant; and what happens after the architect leaves seems to me the work of the associates or shapers.

That the 'story' here focuses so much on the before and after and so little on the routing or any substantive changes to that routing seems, as I say, a bit strange to me.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on December 31, 2021, 11:09:30 AM
That the 'story' here focuses so much on the before and after and so little on the routing or any substantive changes to that routing seems, as I say, a bit strange to me.
I agree with that. I also thought, as I read the article, that it was very light on facts, or at least "details" I should say. What specifically did he "design" and what did DeVries "design"? I think most here know/understand that tens or sometimes hundreds of people work on a golf course and ultimately help it to become what it becomes, "design credit" has to rise to a certain level. The article doesn't give me much insight into what level the author achieved.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Niall C on December 31, 2021, 11:30:54 AM
I agree with Peter ands Erik re the routing. I'd have liked to have read how much of the routing was Mike's as opposed to Darius's revisals. Darius refers to having found the 1st and 18th holes but I'd have thought their positioning/location would largely be a function of access to the site and therefore where the clubhouse is situated. In other words they may have been more or less a given ?


In terms of why write the story, the answer appears to be in Darius's Planet Golf article which suggests that he is endeavoring to counter what he considers a misleading impression which is that the course is a solo Mike design. If that is the case then he is partly to blame for the problem in that he states that he supported the idea that Mike get the design credit in the first place. In hindsight that seems unfortunate however I think it doubly unfortunate that in order to now promote his case he makes some negative comments regarding Mike. Even if what Darius says is based in fact, it still comes across as being a bit unseemly and does neither party any favours.


If I was Mike I might be tempted to just keep a dignified silence.


Niall     




Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim Martin on December 31, 2021, 11:45:24 AM
If I was Mike I might be tempted to just keep a dignified silence.
Niall   
Niall-If I’m a bettor this is the stance Mike will take. I can’t imagine what there is for him to gain by getting involved in the conversation.

Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on December 31, 2021, 01:27:38 PM
I have never met Darius but before he was ever involved in design work, his website consultancy claims were a little annoying, positioning him as the leading international voice and specifically rating a handful of golf course architects as the only ones worth considering. There was a lot of self-promoting bluster.

One of those architects was Mike DeVries… Perhaps Darius learned through this process that he shouldn’t have been so quick to put some architects on a pedestal at the expense of all others?

However, if what he writes is true, I can understand his frustration. I am sure he has only written it because no-one else did. And he’s not the first junior partner (in design terms) to see their name sidelined as time goes on and publications focus only on the marquee name. That has happened elsewhere on a regular basis… But in the end, you have to depend somewhat on the Client. If the Client actively reminds visitors of the co-design credentials, then most commentators will pick up on that.

Darius needs to pick what side he falls on. He apparently doesn’t consider himself a golf course architect. Yet he is happy to act as a consultant to advise on who should design a project. Until he clears that up, he might struggle. He should be one or the other.




I suspect the business plan as a consultant was more to (a) make money from developers who had no idea whom to hire, and (b) find a couple of architects who "owed" Darius for his help in finding bad clients in Asia, that he could piggyback to a co-credit.  He's not the first golf writer who has used this approach and he'll probably not be the last.


Your comment on "junior partners" is not at all accurate:  often, guys like Jay Blasi at Chambers Bay or Andy Staples at Sand Hollow get credit throughout the industry, even if they are not the name on the top-100 lists.  But anyway, Darius was not on Mike's payroll, he was a consultant to the developer . . . and now that the client is no longer involved and the new owners have no idea who did what, it's easier to stake a claim.


Darius clearly considers himself a golf course architect now.  Taking credit for Cape Wickham has always been part of his plan, but now he's trying to compete directly with Mike Clayton & Mike DeVries so he has staked his claim publicly.  And I don't read it as taking part credit; I think he tried to take most of the credit, and labeled his co-designer as "difficult" for good measure.  [I am somewhat familiar with such slurs.]


Luckily both parties have brand-new projects they can claim as their own, and will be able to show what they can do without the other, and it would probably be best if they both just focused on that, instead of who undermined whom ten years ago.  At the rate things are going in Australia they should just cross their fingers Cape Wickham is still open by then.


P.S.  Also LOL for "Cape Wickham is in discussions with Sand Hills as the premier modern course in the world"
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 31, 2021, 02:08:52 PM
Tom,


By junior partner, I meant co-designer. I was not referring to a junior partner in the same firm. Perhaps I am giving Darius too much credit in assuming he is worthy of such a claim.


I am quite clear on the name that sits on a course if there is only one firm involved. In fact, I get quite annoyed when I see associates take credit without referencing their employer.

Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Steve Lapper on December 31, 2021, 03:24:19 PM
Darius' claim to credit, right or wrong, was enunciated in a petty, vindictive fashion.


I agree with Tom's response and especially his PS comment re: comparison to Sand Hills. Furthermore, Darius' assumptions about choosing an architect to appease raters was equally ludicrous. Knowing Mike DeVries reasonably well, I can assure you the client's choice of him had next to nothing to due with Mike's rater recognition quotient.  Mike's considerable talents fly for the most part, under the radar.


Lastly, Darius calling Golf Digest Magazine "the most influential in the industry" and noting it's 2016 World ranking  of #24 is downright laughable. The argument might be made for GD's US list (if based on general, uniformed audiences) but their world list has always been little more than a hack fest for the magazine's  various advertising and marketing-affiliate partners round the globe. Their own raters weren't/aren't expected, nor recognized for taking their rating travels abroad.


To even the uninformed, his piece seems to be semi-desperate grab for some attention and validation.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ira Fishman on December 31, 2021, 04:40:04 PM
I have never met Darius but before he was ever involved in design work, his website consultancy claims were a little annoying, positioning him as the leading international voice and specifically rating a handful of golf course architects as the only ones worth considering. There was a lot of self-promoting bluster.

One of those architects was Mike DeVries… Perhaps Darius learned through this process that he shouldn’t have been so quick to put some architects on a pedestal at the expense of all others?

However, if what he writes is true, I can understand his frustration. I am sure he has only written it because no-one else did. And he’s not the first junior partner (in design terms) to see their name sidelined as time goes on and publications focus only on the marquee name. That has happened elsewhere on a regular basis… But in the end, you have to depend somewhat on the Client. If the Client actively reminds visitors of the co-design credentials, then most commentators will pick up on that.

Darius needs to pick what side he falls on. He apparently doesn’t consider himself a golf course architect. Yet he is happy to act as a consultant to advise on who should design a project. Until he clears that up, he might struggle. He should be one or the other.




I suspect the business plan as a consultant was more to (a) make money from developers who had no idea whom to hire, and (b) find a couple of architects who "owed" Darius for his help in finding bad clients in Asia, that he could piggyback to a co-credit.  He's not the first golf writer who has used this approach and he'll probably not be the last.


Your comment on "junior partners" is not at all accurate:  often, guys like Jay Blasi at Chambers Bay or Andy Staples at Sand Hollow get credit throughout the industry, even if they are not the name on the top-100 lists.  But anyway, Darius was not on Mike's payroll, he was a consultant to the developer . . . and now that the client is no longer involved and the new owners have no idea who did what, it's easier to stake a claim.


Darius clearly considers himself a golf course architect now.  Taking credit for Cape Wickham has always been part of his plan, but now he's trying to compete directly with Mike Clayton & Mike DeVries so he has staked his claim publicly.  And I don't read it as taking part credit; I think he tried to take most of the credit, and labeled his co-designer as "difficult" for good measure.  [I am somewhat familiar with such slurs.]


Luckily both parties have brand-new projects they can claim as their own, and will be able to show what they can do without the other, and it would probably be best if they both just focused on that, instead of who undermined whom ten years ago.  At the rate things are going in Australia they should just cross their fingers Cape Wickham is still open by then.


P.S.  Also LOL for "Cape Wickham is in discussions with Sand Hills as the premier modern course in the world"


I am befuddled by this post. I spent quite a bit of money for the current version of the Confidential Guide. I enjoy sampling it. However, now it seems as if I should ignore any DS Scores by Darius. There clearly is a backstory here or somewhere.


Ira
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on December 31, 2021, 04:56:25 PM

I am befuddled by this post. I spent quite a bit of money for the current version of the Confidential Guide. I enjoy sampling it. However, now it seems as if I should ignore any DS Scores by Darius. There clearly is a backstory here or somewhere.



Ira:


I am befuddled by your post.  Darius' opinions in the book(s) have no bearing on what he did or didn't do at Cape Wickham, or vice versa.  And I've not dealt with him at all in his role as consultant, or designer.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ira Fishman on December 31, 2021, 05:01:19 PM

I am befuddled by this post. I spent quite a bit of money for the current version of the Confidential Guide. I enjoy sampling it. However, now it seems as if I should ignore any DS Scores by Darius. There clearly is a backstory here or somewhere.



Ira:


I am befuddled by your post.  Darius' opinions in the book(s) have no bearing on what he did or didn't do at Cape Wickham, or vice versa.  And I've not dealt with him at all in his role as consultant, or designer.


Tom,


Your post went far beyond the question of what Darius did or did not do at Cape Wickham. It was a précis about him and his business plan. Hence my post.


Ira
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on December 31, 2021, 05:17:26 PM
Sean,


So is this the modern version of the Bethpage Black design credit debate?

I have no idea. I just thought the article was trying to achieve the specific purpose of co-design credit. I don't even know if the players disagree. Scott is right. A public statement from M DV indicating that he deserves sole credit would be helpful. The article drops the reader in the middle of a story without a clear reason as to why clarification is necessary.

Ciao
Sean,


I think the Bethpage Black (Tillinghast vs Joe Burbeck) debate provides useful background.


Whether Burbeck deserves any design credit, I don’t know. But, in the debate that played out here on GolfClubAtlas, obviously it wasn’t Burbeck himself trying to assert the case for him getting some or all the credit. Other people did so.


Darius should have learned from that, IMO. It would have come across much better if he let someone else make the case for him. His approach was a big turnoff, at least for me.

Whether or not Oliver should have published his design claim is a different issue to my point. I don't actually know exactly what the beef is about because I don't know if MDV actually ever wrote or said that Oliver doesn't deserve design credit.

Happy New Year
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Kalen Braley on December 31, 2021, 05:30:54 PM
I'm a bit confused by the comments that he didn't provide details.  I re-read the article and found the following:


I don't know how this fits into the larger picture of roles on a crew, and attributions, but those look to be fairly specific.  Additionally, given this is an article on his site, not a mutli-page report I suspect he never intended to go into all the nitty gritties.


P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph:

I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on December 31, 2021, 06:09:12 PM
I'm a bit confused by the comments that he didn't provide details.  I re-read the article and found the following:

  • Claimed to find 1st and 18th hole
  • Made changes to 4, 5, and 17 greens
  • Changed the 5th fairway
  • Redid last 1/3rd of 6th hole
  • Added fairway bunker on 2
  • Rebuilt greenside bunkers on 1
  • Built bold greens with 6, 10, 12 and 17 greens
  • Tame greens for 5, 13, and 15
  • Softened large dunes on 18 and avoided going flashy

I don't know how this fits into the larger picture of roles on a crew, and attributions, but those look to be fairly specific.  Additionally, given this is an article on his site, not a mutli-page report I suspect he never intended to go into all the nitty gritties.


P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph:

I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.

I don't read MDV's site to exclude others from design credit. He simply doesn't mention others. It's the same style of info for the other original designs that I looked at. What others write isn't at issue...MDV has no control over that. So no, I don't know the exact beef because at best I have only read a vague, one sided account.

Ciao
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Daryl David on December 31, 2021, 06:59:45 PM

P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph
I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.


I understand his issue. Although I’m not sure if the post on his website was the best action to take. From the opening of CW until recently, Darius has been listed as co-designer. Lots of articles in the early days state that. Sites that list courses and designers have it that way. When I spent a day there with Duncan Andrews before the course opened, he mentioned many times that the course was co-designed by Darius and Mike.  Things have obviously drifted from that narrative since Duncan exited the project and it was sold. The new owners might have something to do with that.  Not a great situation. One you wish could be settled satisfactorily in private.










Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Niall C on January 01, 2022, 07:23:07 AM


P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph
I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.



I understand his issue. Although I’m not sure if the post on his website was the best action to take. From the opening of CW until recently, Darius has been listed as co-designer. Lots of articles in the early days state that. Sites that list courses and designers have it that way. When I spent a day there with Duncan Andrews before the course opened, he mentioned many times that the course was co-designed by Darius and Mike.  Things have obviously drifted from that narrative since Duncan exited the project and it was sold. The new owners might have something to do with that.  Not a great situation. One you wish could be settled satisfactorily in private.

Daryl

Perhaps I misread the article as I thought it said that Mike was credited with the design ?

Niall
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Colin Sheehan on January 01, 2022, 07:29:39 AM
Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/ (https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/)


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 01, 2022, 07:58:02 AM
Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/ (https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/)


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.
Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 01, 2022, 01:04:26 PM
Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/ (https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/)


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.
Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.


Jeff

I would disagree with your last statement.  In any type of organized group whether it be political, religious, corporate, etc...it can be quite effective.  I've seen it up close in 2 places I worked at, and it was Trumps winning strategy to become POTUS.

However, getting back to the issue, while I certainly agree that going public wasn't the best way to deal with it, he did have positives of Mike in the article:

1) That he personally recommended MDV for the job after seeing Kingsley
2)  Complimented him on his work ethic and passion for building courses
3) He credits MDVs role in the routing.
4)  He claims to have deferred to Mike in building a couple of green sketches he sent over
5)  Implicitly gives Mike credit for putting ego aside and returning to the project to assist in its completion.
6) Validated his name recognition and brand.

Of course he had negative things to say too, but wouldn't we agree that being able to identify the pros and cons to any situation is at least the sign of an objective approach?

Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 01, 2022, 01:23:59 PM


 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.


Jeff

I would disagree with your last statement.  In any type of organized group whether it be political, religious, corporate, etc...it can be quite effective.  I've seen it up close in 2 places I worked at, and it was Trumps winning strategy to become POTUS.


Kalen,
I can see your view, although it depends on if you are willing to sacrifice your reputation in doing so by it being an individual against another. Politics in debates I don't see as reality myself.
 If all one is after is getting a reaction from a mob, then yes it can be quite effective to pick on others with the intention of glorifying yourself. However, for personal attacks as a former teacher of mine said (not my quote), "you don't get any taller by cutting others down."
I don't think this is anything but obvious, but if you want to be respected by those you respect actions speak louder than words. I guess to finish off these proverbs, is if someone tells you how good they are at something, they probably aren't.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 01, 2022, 01:49:05 PM
Jeff,

I would agree with that sentiment as it applies specifically to respect.  However, the problem with respect is its difficult to measure.  When evaluating these kinds of tactics, I look at it more in terms of what was gained from using them?  So looking at the net accrual whether it be in the form of a notable position, power, increased opportunities/access, compensation, benefits, etc., that's a bit more tangible.

But once again, going back to this scenario...

If I was going to speculate, I'm guessing he wanted to leverage the success of Cape Wickam into other projects in the form of doing lead design/architect kind of work.  And he probably ran into a bit of blowback and obstacles from other potential developers who were under the assumption that Cape Wickam was MDV's work.  And whether its true or not, its almost always perception one has to deal with in reality.  So perhaps he was just trying to set the record straight in a public forum for future work and opportunities, not necessarily for those who were already familiar with the project.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Peter Pallotta on January 01, 2022, 02:16:03 PM
Edit - unnecessary.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Greg Gilson on January 02, 2022, 06:23:11 PM
Its a pity this messy spat could not have been resolved behind closed doors. As noted above, the timing is presumably tied to recent progress with Andrew Purchase' & DO's slow moving course project at Kangaroo (not King) Island & their perceived need to leverage DO's role at (whatever that was) & reputation from CW. Apart from what's already mentioned above, 2 points from DO's longer post that really grab my attention are:


(1)ON CW's website MDV is listed as "COURSE ARCHITECT" & DO as "COURSE DESIGNER". I am sure those titles were not chosen accidentally. Whats the difference? Is there some special qualification required for 1 not the other? Is it because of a contractual requirement to only list MDV as "Course Architect"? Is this kind of terminology used elsewhere on other projects where the "lead architect" has his job finished or heavily supplemented by another party?


(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!

Anyway, the sad thing is that its a wonderful course in a dramatic location & its a testament to everyone who took a chance & contributed. Its reputation , and the reputations of those involved, is not being helped by this squabble.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 02, 2022, 11:59:02 PM
(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!



I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but as much as I like Mike personally and professionally (I'm a Kingsley member and he designed my favorite course), I wouldn't have considered him a real needle mover when it comes to marketing a course in the United States, let alone one on a remote outpost on the other side of the world.  Outside of the real hardcore golf geeks, does any name besides Fazio, Nicklaus, Hanse, Doak, and Coore/Crenshaw really drive interest?  I'm a rater and I've played with raters that have never heard of Mike's pre-CW flagship design.  Doesn't really add up for me.  Also not really sure why they would need an American architect to really drive ratings.   Certainly opening Bandon without an American architect has been a complete disaster for Mike Keiser.  ::)


Those aren't the only things that don't make sense.  If you're trying to build a links style golf course, wouldn't hiring someone who "understands the nuances of links golf" be one of the most important things to suss out during the interview process?  Given the current projects underway in that part of the world, this is an incredibly self-serving article. 
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 03, 2022, 12:22:10 AM
Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/ (https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/)


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.
Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.
Wow. So now Darius is a “renowned golf course architect”.


Quite a promotion.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Greg Gilson on January 03, 2022, 12:36:57 AM
Tim, i agree with you that DO's reputation needed cosmetic surgery to support the Kangaroo Island promotional material.

Bill, I also agree with your logic but, as DO's post argues, it was the overseas raters they were aiming to hoodwink:

" Despite things not working out with Mike on King Island, we all felt that the course needed an American name for the overseas raters to take seriously. Im not sure the American raters would have been so quick to rush to a tiny island down under had they known who actually designed it."

Now that i re-read DO's words again i actually get more disappointed. I don't know whether i am crankier that they are trying to steal MDV's design credit .....or that they used his name to attach to a course that they really don't believe he actually designed...or both.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Niall C on January 03, 2022, 05:52:33 AM
"Mike DeVries was able to return to King Island for a week in mid-2014 and actually get back on a machine to shape part of the 16th hole. I think he was impressed with the work we had done, but perhaps still hurt that he hadn’t been able to see the project through to completion. I believe he owes Duncan Andrews a huge debt of gratitude, for protecting his reputation and keeping his name associated with such an incredible golf course."

I wonder whether Mike believes he owes a "huge debt of gratitude" ? This passage also begs the question, why was Mike asked back ? (I'm assuming he was asked rather than him doing the "asking"). If he "struggled with the nuances of true links golf and the concept of a collaborative approach" then why would you ask him back to be part of the team and undertake some shaping ? Seems bizarre to me.


Niall
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: John Mayhugh on January 03, 2022, 08:45:01 AM
Basically, Darius Oliver is saying that "we were lying to you before about who designed Cape Wickham, but now you should believe me." I've no idea how the design/build process went, but this certainly hasn't enhanced Mr. Oliver's reputation with me.

On his Planet Golf website, Oliver also describes himself as having "unsurpassed expertise in the area of golf course design." This suggests a willingness to exaggerate.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Mark Smolens on January 03, 2022, 10:53:51 AM
(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!


William, you need to get some rest. . . edit posts at 1;30 in the morning?? Who do you think you are, Tom Doak?

I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but as much as I like Mike personally and professionally (I'm a Kingsley member and he designed my favorite course), I wouldn't have considered him a real needle mover when it comes to marketing a course in the United States, let alone one on a remote outpost on the other side of the world.  Outside of the real hardcore golf geeks, does any name besides Fazio, Nicklaus, Hanse, Doak, and Coore/Crenshaw really drive interest?  I'm a rater and I've played with raters that have never heard of Mike's pre-CW flagship design.  Doesn't really add up for me.  Also not really sure why they would need an American architect to really drive ratings.   Certainly opening Bandon without an American architect has been a complete disaster for Mike Keiser.  ::)


Those aren't the only things that don't make sense.  If you're trying to build a links style golf course, wouldn't hiring someone who "understands the nuances of links golf" be one of the most important things to suss out during the interview process?  Given the current projects underway in that part of the world, this is an incredibly self-serving article.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 03, 2022, 12:58:12 PM
William, you need to get some rest. . . edit posts at 1;30 in the morning?? Who do you think you are, Tom Doak?


Smols, I've got 3 year old and 6 month old, both of whom decided they'd rather not sleep last night.  Gotta do something to pass the time between calm-down sessions. 
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 03, 2022, 01:02:56 PM
Basically, Darius Oliver is saying that "we were lying to you before about who designed Cape Wickham, but now you should believe me." I've no idea how the design/build process went, but this certainly hasn't enhanced Mr. Oliver's reputation with me.


And by implication, he's also saying Mike has been lying to everyone (with their permission, of course) since the course opened.  I certainly haven't heard every interview he's done, but I've read/listened to a fair amount, and I can't recall one in which Mike said the project didn't go well and he was fired, which is what Darius alleges here. 
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Charles Lund on January 03, 2022, 03:55:48 PM
The link below from 2015 and 2016 characterizes the development in a  more contemporaneous review. 


https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review (https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review)

Also, the course has been under new ownership for a few years, after Duncan Andrews sold it to a group located in Vietnam, as I understand it.

Charles Lund
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on January 03, 2022, 05:09:42 PM
All I can say on this issue is the following.
When I played CW, prior to its opening and had the company of Mr Andrews for a couple of days, including dinner, there was no mention of the development as Darius suggests.
It was clear from what Mr Andrews was telling me this was a collaboration and that both men made significant contributions to the project.
One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.


MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.


I personally think this was one of the best aspects of the course routing and design, as holes 5-9 to me are some of the best on the course and when one does return with that over the hill view on 10 to get smashed in the face again with the beauty of the site.


Just my ten cents worth
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 03, 2022, 05:55:39 PM
All I can say on this issue is the following.
When I played CW, prior to its opening and had the company of Mr Andrews for a couple of days, including dinner, there was no mention of the development as Darius suggests.
It was clear from what Mr Andrews was telling me this was a collaboration and that both men made significant contributions to the project.
One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.


MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.


I personally think this was one of the best aspects of the course routing and design, as holes 5-9 to me are some of the best on the course and when one does return with that over the hill view on 10 to get smashed in the face again with the beauty of the site.


Just my ten cents worth
Michael,


Thanks for your account of dinner with Mr. Andrews and perspective on Mike DeVries’ views on the routing for Cape Wickham.


While I haven’t seen Cape Wickham, by your account MDV did raise an interesting issue for students of golf architecture: how to balance eye candy with interesting golf holes, particularly at seaside courses.


In years past, we debated the merits of the inland holes at Pebble Beach vs the obvious stars along the ocean. I was among those who believed some of the inland holes were ok, but not that great.


By comparison, I never felt let down by the inland holes at nearby Cypress Point.


It is unfortunate Darius took discussion of Cape Wickham in a personal direction rather than an opportunity to discuss an important golf architecture topic: the routing for seaside or waterfront courses.


Thanks again for your post.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 03, 2022, 07:19:46 PM
The link below from 2015 and 2016 characterizes the development in a  more contemporaneous review. 

https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review (https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review)

Also, the course has been under new ownership for a few years, after Duncan Andrews sold it to a group located in Vietnam, as I understand it.



Well, that contemporaneous account might also be a little biased, as Darius used to be a partner in the firm that wrote the review, and they were certainly more likely to print what he told them.  They even said as much in the first two paragraphs!


Indeed, for most newspaper and magazine accounts today, you can assume that they are printing whatever their host wanted them to say.  It's the way of the world nowadays.  There are several other examples just in this thread.


The only semi-neutral person you could ask about it is Duncan Andrews, who told me himself that he funded the project because he wanted to see it happen, but that he would turn around and sell it as soon as it was ranked and before it had a financial history to drag down the price.  :D   So, I'm not sure I would believe everything he said, either!


I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years, so they've done next to no business during COVID.  The new owners of Cape Wickham have very deep pockets, so there's no fear of it going bankrupt, but it's far removed from the rest of their business interests and I'm not sure if they understand the place or even HAVE a long-term business model for it.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 03, 2022, 08:24:48 PM

One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.

MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.





Unless you're building on a small island or a narrow peninsula, pretty much half the holes on an oceanfront site are going to have to be away from the sea.  You've got to get back to where you started, and the other holes are blocking you off from the sea. 


Almost always, the holes that are along the ocean are going to be the slam-dunk favorites, as at Pebble Beach, so the goal will always be to find some holes further inland that are judged to be as good as the oceanfront holes.  Of course, having really good contour and movement in those areas is a huge leg up, and is what separates the "10" site from the 8 or 9.


But of course, exactly HOW you do it and WHEN you do it has a big impact on how the course feels.  The one "formula" for that I prefer to avoid is the modern preference for two opposite loops of nine holes, with the finishing holes for each nine on the water, a la Teeth of the Dog or Barnbougle.  For me, that's just too predictable, and I will lose interest unless the inland terrain is as good as the 4th and 11th-13th at Barnbougle.  Ideally, I'd rather get to the water somewhere near the start, and then return unpredictably after that, but it's not so easy to sort out the best way to do that.  ["Routing" two of the oceanfront holes is a lot easier when you don't have to close the loop.  ;) ]
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David_Elvins on January 04, 2022, 05:17:14 PM
I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years,


That is a wild over exaggeration.  Tasmanian border restrictions have mainly been outside their golf season when the course is shut every year anyway  Not saying it hasn't affected their golf business and lack of international tourists hurts but Apart from a few weeks here and there of localised restrictions, Australians were going to tassie for golf from Dec to May every  year.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Scott Warren on January 04, 2022, 05:31:32 PM
Not quite, David. Tasmania has had restrictions in place for people from NSW for much of the past two years. A good mate of mine moved to Hobart in 2019 and I've had to abandon three trips to see him because of interstate quarantine requirements.


This, for example, was from last December:


https://www.premier.tas.gov.au/site_resources_2015/additional_releases/update_on_nsw_border_restrictions (https://www.premier.tas.gov.au/site_resources_2015/additional_releases/update_on_nsw_border_restrictions)

19 December 2020Peter Gutwein, Premier
Update on NSW border restrictions
The health and safety of Tasmanians remains our number one priority as we continue to deal with the coronavirus pandemic.

In response to the escalating situation in New South Wales, the Greater Sydney area will be classified as a medium-risk jurisdiction by the Director of Public Health, effective from midnight tonight.

The Northern Beaches area within the Greater Sydney footprint will remain as a high-risk area.

This means that from midnight tonight, anyone who travels to Tasmania from the Greater Sydney area will have to quarantine for 14 days from arrival in Tasmania. As the Northern Beaches area remains high-risk, only Tasmanians returning home can come to Tasmania from this area and they will be required to quarantine for 14 days as well.

Quarantine can be undertaken at a suitable residence, or for those without a residence, at a Government quarantine hotel at your own expense.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David_Elvins on January 04, 2022, 05:48:59 PM
Like I said, "a few weeks here and there of localised restrictions."









Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Scott Warren on January 04, 2022, 06:10:32 PM
It has been a lot more than “a few weeks here and there”.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 04, 2022, 10:33:12 PM
I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years, so they've done next to no business during COVID.  The new owners of Cape Wickham have very deep pockets, so there's no fear of it going bankrupt, but it's far removed from the rest of their business interests and I'm not sure if they understand the place or even HAVE a long-term business model for it.


For what it's worth, on Twitter Darius claims they're nearly full for the rest of this season and well into next summer.  So if that's true, sounds like they're hanging in there.
https://twitter.com/Planet_Golf/status/1476370609990864897
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tony Dear on January 05, 2022, 05:38:12 PM
I shared a few emails with Darius 18 months ago when working on a profile of DeVries which aimed to highlight Mike's career accomplishments (of which Cape Wickham was undoubtedly one). Without sharing too many details of what was a confidential email, it became clear in reading Darius's first message that the story was worth way more than my 1,000 words (the Cape Wickham part was probably only a quarter of that) was going to cover.
I wince a bit now when I read the article given Darius's post and new details that have come to light. I don't suppose there is much I can do about that, but there it is.
One thing I will share is that Darius wrote Mike did "much of the routing" which seems to run contrary to what he said in his PlanetGolf post where he wrote "Duncan, Mike and I then produced the final routing."
As others have said here, I think design credit should ultimately go to the person that routes the course which, if the words in Darius's email are true, was Mike. If, in fact, Duncan Andrews, Darius and Mike worked equally on the routing (how would you calculate something like that?) then you might have to consider who did the most work on the individual holes once the routing was in place or, alternatively, name all three as co-designers.
Again, as others have mentioned, I don't think it was in Darius's best interests to post his 'Inside Story', and it was probably better coming from someone else. I totally understand him wanting the world to know the truth (at least what he considers the truth) though. Then again, how many people besides Duncan Andrews and Andrew Purchase really know the whole truth? And, given he has chosen Darius for his Kangaroo Island course, wouldn't Andrew also want the world to know how much Darius contributed at Cape Wickham? As for Mike, if he's asked about it my guess is he'll give as close to a "No comment" as he can without being rude.
Bottom line - if the situation calls for a quick response, I'll continue to call it a Devries design. If, however, I'm discussing the design story over a long lunch with someone who cares, I'll certainly be mentioning what Darius did (or claims to have done).
Funnily (actually, it's not very funny at all), before all this broke, I included the 18th in a '21 Great Holes from the 21st Century' article, saying "...architect Mike DeVries, together with Australian designer Darius Oliver...".
I'm not sure what that distinction means exactly (I notice there is a newer thread on the 'Architect v Designer' question), but it worked for me.
Lastly, all the best to Cape Wickham and the rest of the island/state. I sincerely hope it survives the pandemic.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ken Fry on January 06, 2022, 09:22:25 AM
Let me ask this question.

George Crump has been credited for his vision in producing one of the greatest golf courses in the world.  He's listed with Henry Colt as the primary designers (of course we all know more people were involved in varying degrees).

Henry Fownes is credited with designing one course but it's a highly thought of course.

Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 06, 2022, 11:10:57 AM
Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


I think it would be appropriate to call either of them "architect (or designer) of the renowned Oakmont CC/Pine Valley CC.  Maybe I'm applying a definition to "renowned" that oversells it a bit.  But here's another angle on your question, Ken.  I have not been to Bandon, but the consensus from people I've talked to seems to be that the original course is typically their least favorite on the property.  Was DMK "renowned" after Bandon Dunes?  Would he be "renowned" if he hadn't somewhat resurrected his post Castle Course career with Gamble Sands and Mammoth Dunes, etc.?  I think a particular property can be renowned, but I would submit that it takes a larger body of work for an artist/author/architect to gain that distinction.  But eye of the beholder and all that.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Scott Warren on January 06, 2022, 04:25:12 PM
Agree, Bill. And further to that, if someone is "renowned", they don't need to insist upon it themselves.


Like Margaret Thatcher's "Being powerful is like being a lady: if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 06, 2022, 11:20:39 PM
Agree, Bill. And further to that, if someone is "renowned", they don't need to insist upon it themselves.


Like Margaret Thatcher's "Being powerful is like being a lady: if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."
Scott,


IMO, your Margaret Thatcher quote certainly applies.


As for George Crump, my impression is he would not have described himself as a “renowned golf course architect”, nor would he have approved anyone else doing so.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Charles Lund on January 12, 2022, 09:27:03 PM
Passing on this link:


https://www.ausgolf.com.au/australias-modern-golf-links (https://www.ausgolf.com.au/australias-modern-golf-links)

Charles Lund
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Scott Warren on January 13, 2022, 12:34:27 AM
This is all incredibly pathetic. Credit to Mike DeVries for having the good sense to not get dragged into it. Not that there’s any sign he was approached for comment as part of this story…

Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 13, 2022, 01:35:53 AM
This is all incredibly pathetic. Credit to Mike DeVries for having the good sense to not get dragged into it. Not that there’s any sign he was approached for comment as part of this story…

Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?
Scott,


Yes. Darius made himself look really bad. Based on my limited exposure to Mike, he is smarter than that.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Bill Seitz on January 13, 2022, 10:09:46 AM
Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?


Can't say I'm a huge fan of interview articles that don't actually transcribe the entire interview.  "In light of recent 'shots fired' regarding the design of Cape Whickham, we took the opportunity to sit down with and talk"... but we're only going to actually print a few snippets from that conversation.  They published more of Tom's comments from this thread than they did of their discussion with Mr. Andrews.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: John Mayhugh on January 13, 2022, 02:56:43 PM
The Berg "interview" is pretty bad. If you want to extensively quote someone, at least actually contact them. It reads like he wanted to refute Tom Doak's comments on GCA, but not risk contacting Tom and asking questions.

Also, I agree with Bill that something more like a transcript is a better way to share an interview.


Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 13, 2022, 03:16:43 PM
The Berg "interview" is pretty bad. If you want to extensively quote someone, at least actually contact them. It reads like he wanted to refute Tom Doak's comments on GCA, but not risk contacting Tom and asking questions.



Yes.  Although I doubt I would have agreed to an interview if they HAD asked, which they did not.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: John Emerson on January 13, 2022, 05:54:13 PM
There has to be shapers, crew members, superintendents etc that worked on the project and can verify what’s truth and what’s fiction.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Charles Lund on January 13, 2022, 07:47:54 PM
It might help to know how each of the two parties were paid, what the contractual arrangements were and for what duties and responsibilities, and who was an employee of which party involved. 


I had a Major Professor in grad school who often added his name to any papers his students wrote.There was a joke that he had two stamps.  One was Major Professor and .......  The other was .........and Major Professor.  Undergrad lab assistants generally were not included.  The standard for inclusion had to do with intellectual content and expertise in the area.


Unless Duncan Andrews were to disavow the statements attributed to him or specify the AUSGOLF version from 2015 is incorrect, it seems realistic to accept what was attributed in these accounts.  Of course, he might have made other comments in other settings.


I've had communication with AUSGOLF since before my first trip to Australia in 2007.  At that time, they had a user friendly website that covered Australia public golf very well.  They have kept it running for many years.  I found it very helpful and my experience with a first trip that involved some very good public courses and three private courses led me to go back to Australia on 15 more trips.  One of the public courses was the first course I played and was developed by Duncan Andrews.  Whatever transpired at Cape Wickham occurred as his project.


Charles Lund


Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David Ober on January 14, 2022, 12:03:13 AM
Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


I think it would be appropriate to call either of them "architect (or designer) of the renowned Oakmont CC/Pine Valley CC.  Maybe I'm applying a definition to "renowned" that oversells it a bit.  But here's another angle on your question, Ken.  I have not been to Bandon, but the consensus from people I've talked to seems to be that the original course is typically their least favorite on the property.  Was DMK "renowned" after Bandon Dunes?  Would he be "renowned" if he hadn't somewhat resurrected his post Castle Course career with Gamble Sands and Mammoth Dunes, etc.?  I think a particular property can be renowned, but I would submit that it takes a larger body of work for an artist/author/architect to gain that distinction.  But eye of the beholder and all that.


Interesting. I don't know a single person who lists the original Bandon course as their least favorite. And I probably know 50 guys who have played all the courses.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 14, 2022, 01:05:09 AM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David Ober on January 14, 2022, 01:35:00 AM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.


Well now I know one! ;-)
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 14, 2022, 02:03:53 AM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: David_Elvins on January 14, 2022, 02:48:56 PM
Well now I know one! ;-)


Comfortably my least favorite too, fwiw.


I may reassess when I play it more but it seemed a bit amateurish in places.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Kyle Harris on January 14, 2022, 05:10:48 PM
Let me ask this question.

George Crump has been credited for his vision in producing one of the greatest golf courses in the world.  He's listed with Henry Colt as the primary designers (of course we all know more people were involved in varying degrees).

Henry Fownes is credited with designing one course but it's a highly thought of course.

Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


George Crump did other golf courses…
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 14, 2022, 09:29:24 PM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.


The only problems with this explanation are
1) Maidstone is not, actually, rated in the top 50 courses in the world - or even the top 100, I think?, and
2) Maidstone is better than Bandon Dunes.  :D
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 14, 2022, 09:37:55 PM
According to the new Golf Mag ratings its #56...

https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-courses-world-ranking-2021-2022/



Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Charles Lund on January 15, 2022, 12:00:43 AM
Actually Cape Wickham was #70 on the link Kalen provided.  Article notes as Architect Mike DeVries with Darius Oliver. 

Sorry, I thought reference was to Cape Wickham.  Maidstone was #56.

Charles Lund
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 15, 2022, 12:33:08 AM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.


The only problems with this explanation are
1) Maidstone is not, actually, rated in the top 50 courses in the world - or even the top 100, I think?, and
2) Maidstone is better than Bandon Dunes.  :D


Tom, jeepers it is the concept. ;D  also are you buying into ratings as an accurate reference for quality!? :o  necessary evil is rhr general concensus as imperfect as it is.


A great area for golf LI and pick out 3 of their top courses, even though #3 is your least preferred of the 3 it is still a great course.  So keep it in perspective.


 Same for Bandon Dunes resort analogy I think, BD while bot someone's favorite compared to PD or OM is still a great course.


Yeah Kalen is correct for world ranking 56 and 29 in usa list.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Chris Kane on January 15, 2022, 05:29:05 PM
This is all incredibly pathetic. Credit to Mike DeVries for having the good sense to not get dragged into it. Not that there’s any sign he was approached for comment as part of this story…


Spot on Scott. The Planet Golf article reflected very poorly on Darius Oliver, and this latest effort on ausgolf.com.au reflects equally poorly on the subject and author. I cannot understand why Duncan Andrews and Selwyn Berg would choose to throw themselves under the same bus.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim_Weiman on January 15, 2022, 09:25:07 PM
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.
Jeff,


I would much rather play Maidstone than Bandon Dunes. BD is a “the first course to play after a long plane ride”. That is, get jet lag out of your system and prepare for the better stuff that is coming next.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Eric Smith on October 24, 2023, 04:44:38 PM
The photo (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,71403.msg1738398.html#msg1738398) of the new GOLF Top 100 ranking posted on the Cabot St. Lucia thread appears to show that Cape Wickham, ranked 70th in the World in the 2021-22 Top 100 Courses list, has plunged 30+ spots and out of the Top 100 altogether.


Here is the link to the World (https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-courses-world-ranking-2021-2022/) list published at golf.com. It is the 2021-22 list.


That is a big drop. Love to learn more about the why.




Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: BHoover on October 25, 2023, 10:46:15 PM
Darius Oliver appears to take umbrage with the latest Golf Magazine world top 100. He does come across as perhaps just a tad bitter.


https://www.planetgolf.com/rankings/worldwide/golf-magazine-world-top-100/2023 (https://www.planetgolf.com/rankings/worldwide/golf-magazine-world-top-100/2023)


USA GOLF Magazine has released its 2023 ranking of the World’s Top 100 golf courses, with a continued emphasis on American courses and American designs.

The magazine ranking with the most professionally, and personally, conflicted panelists in golf is chaired by Ran Morrissett, an initial investor in the Cabot business and a current consultant on one of their projects in Florida. Morrissett has done particularly well for the Cabot brand this year, by managing to sneak the new Point Hardy course at Cabot Saint Lucia onto the Top 100 list, a couple of months before it even opens. The original Cabot Links course continues to over perform as well, being ranked #79 in the World.
Morrissett is also a cheerleader (or promoter) for the designs of Tom Doak, who was a previous chair of this panel and remains a judge. Unsurprisingly, Doak courses continue to perform well with the new Lido course at Sand Valley debuting at #68 and the St Patrick’s course at Rosapenna rising 6 places to #49. More curious is the elevation of Rock Creek in Montana, which is a nice course now ranked #73 on the entire planet.
Aside from the Lido and the as-yet-unopened Point Hardy course at Cabot Saint Lucia, other new courses on the 2023 list are Te Arai (South Course) in New Zealand at #85 and Lofoten Links in Norway at #88. Royal Cinque Ports makes its first World Top 100 list in 100th place, while each of Shanqin Bay (#95), Victoria GC (#96) and Machrihanish (#97) have reentered the ranking after previously falling off.
Without doubt the most dubious omission from the 2023 Top 100 list is Cape Wickham in Tasmania, which has apparently become an inferior course to the likes of Garden City, Cape Kidnappers, Camargo, Royal Troon, Rock Creek, Royal Lytham, Cabot Links, Peachtree, Nine Bridges, Castle Stuart, Whistling Straits, Muirfield Village and Yeamans Hall.
The absence of Cape Wickham from a World Top 100 ranking hurts that lists credibility.
As with most American lists like this one, there are several courses included that would struggle to make Victoria’s Top 10 and others that you wouldn’t seek out if they were located in a strong golf market like Scotland, Ireland, Australia or England.
There is also a clear preference toward super elite, private American clubs. Incredibly, 29 of the Top 50 courses in the World are apparently American – and only 3 of those courses are available for public play. Garden City at #48, for example, is a charming club with a really lovely golf course – a course that, at best, might rank somewhere in the 12–20 bracket in Australia.
Fortunately, the influence of the GOLF Magazine Top 100 has continued to wane over the years, with most astute golfers looking at these results with amusement and a healthy degree of skepticism. Local Australian panels continue to rank Cape Wickham among the Top 3 courses in the country.
I note my own personal bias here, as a designer of Cape Wickham.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean Walsh on October 26, 2023, 02:23:59 AM
Like the effort that originated this thread, this from Darius does seem ill advised.


In my view he is right about Cape Wickham being severely under appreciated by this list but I’m not sure this is the way to address it.


It was previously at 70 and I think that was underrated. I see it as an equal of Barnbougle so somewhere in the 35-50 range.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on October 26, 2023, 02:34:16 AM
Darius Oliver appears to take umbrage with the latest Golf Magazine world top 100. He does come across as perhaps just a tad bitter.


https://www.planetgolf.com/rankings/worldwide/golf-magazine-world-top-100/2023 (https://www.planetgolf.com/rankings/worldwide/golf-magazine-world-top-100/2023)


USA GOLF Magazine has released its 2023 ranking of the World’s Top 100 golf courses, with a continued emphasis on American courses and American designs.

The magazine ranking with the most professionally, and personally, conflicted panelists in golf is chaired by Ran Morrissett, an initial investor in the Cabot business and a current consultant on one of their projects in Florida. Morrissett has done particularly well for the Cabot brand this year, by managing to sneak the new Point Hardy course at Cabot Saint Lucia onto the Top 100 list, a couple of months before it even opens. The original Cabot Links course continues to over perform as well, being ranked #79 in the World.
Morrissett is also a cheerleader (or promoter) for the designs of Tom Doak, who was a previous chair of this panel and remains a judge. Unsurprisingly, Doak courses continue to perform well with the new Lido course at Sand Valley debuting at #68 and the St Patrick’s course at Rosapenna rising 6 places to #49. More curious is the elevation of Rock Creek in Montana, which is a nice course now ranked #73 on the entire planet.
Aside from the Lido and the as-yet-unopened Point Hardy course at Cabot Saint Lucia, other new courses on the 2023 list are Te Arai (South Course) in New Zealand at #85 and Lofoten Links in Norway at #88. Royal Cinque Ports makes its first World Top 100 list in 100th place, while each of Shanqin Bay (#95), Victoria GC (#96) and Machrihanish (#97) have reentered the ranking after previously falling off.
Without doubt the most dubious omission from the 2023 Top 100 list is Cape Wickham in Tasmania, which has apparently become an inferior course to the likes of Garden City, Cape Kidnappers, Camargo, Royal Troon, Rock Creek, Royal Lytham, Cabot Links, Peachtree, Nine Bridges, Castle Stuart, Whistling Straits, Muirfield Village and Yeamans Hall.
The absence of Cape Wickham from a World Top 100 ranking hurts that lists credibility.
As with most American lists like this one, there are several courses included that would struggle to make Victoria’s Top 10 and others that you wouldn’t seek out if they were located in a strong golf market like Scotland, Ireland, Australia or England.
There is also a clear preference toward super elite, private American clubs. Incredibly, 29 of the Top 50 courses in the World are apparently American – and only 3 of those courses are available for public play. Garden City at #48, for example, is a charming club with a really lovely golf course – a course that, at best, might rank somewhere in the 12–20 bracket in Australia.
Fortunately, the influence of the GOLF Magazine Top 100 has continued to wane over the years, with most astute golfers looking at these results with amusement and a healthy degree of skepticism. Local Australian panels continue to rank Cape Wickham among the Top 3 courses in the country.
I note my own personal bias here, as a designer of Cape Wickham.


You mean the magazine ranking system is inherently flawed and can never approach perfection?


Ciao
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: William_G on October 26, 2023, 11:36:07 AM
[quote author=Tim_Weiman link=topic=70565.msg1698647#msg1698647 date=1642299907

I would much rather play Maidstone than Bandon Dunes. BD is a “the first course to play after a long plane ride”. That is, get jet lag out of your system and prepare for the better stuff that is coming next.



private, easier etc... everyone has their flavor man
this topic is about Wickham
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Daryl David on October 26, 2023, 08:43:49 PM
Like the effort that originated this thread, this from Darius does seem ill advised.


In my view he is right about Cape Wickham being severely under appreciated by this list but I’m not sure this is the way to address it.


It was previously at 70 and I think that was underrated. I see it as an equal of Barnbougle so somewhere in the 35-50 range.


Agree. Darius is correct in his assessment, but he should not be the one pointing it out.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: BHoover on October 27, 2023, 07:05:16 AM
Darius Oliver seems to be something of a piece of work. Personally, I would be more inclined to play a course without him listed as architect. The opposite is true for a course designed by Mike DeVries, which I absolutely would go out of my way to play.


Which begs the question, could Mr. Oliver’s involvement in Cape Wickham have any impact on the course’s ranking? Would the course be ranked higher if someone more respectable (and likeable) were listed as the architect?
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: PCCraig on October 27, 2023, 10:37:58 AM
I spent the better part of a day with Darius a while back when he was on a Planet Golf book tour that came through St. Paul.


Personally, I really enjoyed my time with him and found him to be a good person.


If I were his close friend I would of likely advised him not to write these letters.


As Jeff Shelman has said, rankings are like pizza...its all about personal tastes. (Or something like that). Darius takes a shot at Rock Creek Cattle Company being on the list. Personally, I think that golf course is incredible and I could make an argument that it's still underrated. But that's just me.


Cape Wickham looks amazing and I'd love to play it someday. Whether Golf ranks it in the Top 100 or not doesn't change that desire.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on October 27, 2023, 11:21:46 AM
I spent the day with him as well, at Ballyhack. I found him personable, knowledgeable, and insightful. He did not shy away from expressing his thoughts, yet he was able to listen to a variety of opinions. He is one of those people about whom we say, "He is honest to a fault."
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Matt Schoolfield on October 27, 2023, 03:38:20 PM
Like the effort that originated this thread, this from Darius does seem ill advised.
Agree. Darius is correct in his assessment, but he should not be the one pointing it out.
Darius Oliver seems to be something of a piece of work.
If I were his close friend I would of likely advised him not to write these letters.
He is one of those people about whom we say, "He is honest to a fault."
I feel like the odd man out here. Right or wrong, I hold people who are willing to (their) truth to power in high esteem. God forbid we respect someone for being willing to speak up when they see something they don't think is right, especially at some risk to their career. There is effectively zero chance this puts Golf Magazine in peril, and has the potential to create positive changes there.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Jonathan Mallard on October 28, 2023, 03:10:01 PM
I spent the day with him as well, at Ballyhack. I found him personable, knowledgeable, and insightful. He did not shy away from expressing his thoughts, yet he was able to listen to a variety of opinions. He is one of those people about whom we say, "He is honest to a fault."


I had a similar experience when I spoke to him the following day at Willow Oaks.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Thomas Dai on October 28, 2023, 05:10:06 PM
I wonder how the Kangaroo Island development is progressing?
Atb
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Daryl David on October 28, 2023, 07:04:54 PM
I wonder how the Kangaroo Island development is progressing?
Atb


Their website says 2025.


https://www.thecliffs.com.au/ (https://www.thecliffs.com.au/)
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 28, 2023, 08:51:47 PM
Like the effort that originated this thread, this from Darius does seem ill advised.
Agree. Darius is correct in his assessment, but he should not be the one pointing it out.
Darius Oliver seems to be something of a piece of work.
If I were his close friend I would of likely advised him not to write these letters.
He is one of those people about whom we say, "He is honest to a fault."
I feel like the odd man out here. Right or wrong, I hold people who are willing to (their) truth to power in high esteem. God forbid we respect someone for being willing to speak up when they see something they don't think is right, especially at some risk to their career. There is effectively zero chance this puts Golf Magazine in peril, and has the potential to create positive changes there.
If Darius Oliver had said that he could not understand how Cape Wickham could drop so many spots and he called on Golf Magazine to offer some explanation, that would be rational. However, he tries to insinuate motives and disparage Ran M. That approach is childish and irrational. Does anyone think Ran arranged for CW to drop in the rankings since he was (or is) a Cabot investor and somehow he benefits? Or CW dropped because the rankings needed room for 40 Doak and Coore/Crenshaw courses that Ran supposedly likes to promote? (note: lots of people seem to like Doak and C&C courses - maybe they are generally very good?)


Oliver seemed to like the rating process ok when he thought he was gaming it:
we all felt that the course needed an American name for the overseas raters to take seriously. And so it was in 2016 when Golf Digest Magazine, the most influential in the industry, ranked the course #24 in the World. I’m not sure the American raters would have been so quick to rush to a tiny island down under had they known who actually designed it.

What are the "positive changes" you think this rant could lead to? Why such high esteem for someone who criticizes others with no evidence whatsover?
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Matt Schoolfield on October 29, 2023, 12:48:31 PM
What are the "positive changes" you think this rant could lead to? Why such high esteem for someone who criticizes others with no evidence whatsover?

Early access to Cabot properties if Ran is an investor should probably raise an eyebrow or two. However, even if the were zero impropriety, and I'm not saying there is, the method of ranking at GOLF is extremely loosey-goosey (https://golf.com/travel/top-100-vote-how-we-decide-our-course-rankings/):

Quote
Because we don’t prescribe a set method to assess courses as other ranks do, no one opinion carries the day — our rank is a democracy. Some panelists believe that enjoyment is the ultimate goal, and thus prioritize design attributes such as width and playing angles, while frowning upon the need to constantly hunt for balls in thick rough. Other panelists value challenge and the demands of hitting every club in the bag. Still others consider a course’s surroundings and overall environment of paramount importance, thereby emphasizing the setting and naturalness of the course. In the end, allowing raters to freely express their tastes is what produces the desired eclecticism in our Top 100 lists.

I'm even confused about how rating happens:

Quote
For the newly released 2023-24 World list, each panelist was provided a ballot that consisted of 504 courses globally. He or she was given seven months to complete it. Beside the list of courses were 11 “buckets,” or groupings. If our panelists considered a course to be among the top three in the world, they ticked that first column. If they believed the course to be among Nos. 4-10 in the world, they checked the next column, followed by 11-25, 26-50, and so on out to 250+ and even a column for remove.

504 course in about 210 days presents obvious issues. It seems entirely unclear if the courses need to actually be played that year to be ranked, and if we are requiring the course to be played, who is keeping track of who is playing what? Supposing all the best intentions, if a course were, say, on a small island off the coast of Tasmania, perhaps only one rater might visit it once that year, which should dramatically increase the variance of it's position (especially if they got a rater that just doesn't like wind). That might just be the way the cookie crumbles, but for someone whose career and well-being is tied to these ratings, it sucks.

As much as they want a diversity of opinion, the folks chosen obviously will have aligned values (why would you choose someone for such a desirable role when you think they're an idiot), so it makes sense that Doak and Cabot properties might punch above their weight on this list. And again, that might just be the breaks for folks with different values, but still, it seems doubly awkward when the people within that handpicked rating circle are rating the properties of the people who picked them.

To put it another way, if would be weird if the W Hotel sponsored the NYT travel and leisure hotel rankings, and chose the expert raters. If the W hotels then were surprisingly highly ranked, and then early access was given to the new W Tokyo, which then was positioned well, I don't think any of us would be out-of-line for rolling our eyes. Lord knows marketing in journalism has been happening for decades:

Marketers Say They Pay for Play in News Media (https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/26/business/media/26message.html) - NYT 2006

Quote
Though product placement in movies and on television shows is a fairly standard practice, it is generally accepted that magazine and newspaper articles, and television and radio news programs, do not accept payment for naming products.

A recent survey, however, challenges that understanding. An annual poll conducted by PR Week magazine and Manning Selvage & Lee, a public relations firm, asked 266 marketing executives if they had ever paid for broadcast or editorial placement. Nearly half said yes. And nearly 46 percent of those who had not paid for placement replied that they would consider doing so in the future.

These lists are supposed to be all in good fun, but they sort of aren't. Rankings are written into contracts. Salaries are dependent on them. We are kidding ourselves if we don't admit that simple access to a place like PV or CP is an extremely valuable commodity that people would want to maintain... so everyone should take these rankings with a grain of salt. Even if absolutely nothing is untoward, I can understand why people with skin in the game might prefer the top ranking institutions have clear, transparent, and strict journalistic standards.

If Oliver is the wrong person to say that, so be it. I don't know him and I don't care. I just think it's a reasonable thing to be said, especially at some cost to his career.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on October 29, 2023, 01:53:06 PM
Matt,


Good posts, good points. I think the only thing you get noticeably wrong is that there is never a demand for raters to see a course in that particular year. They just have to have played it sometime.


The bottom line is that Top courses rankings were started as just a bit of fun, as recently as the 80’s (aside from the occasional article in years previous). They have turned in to ridiculous big business.


I sometimes wish that they just disappeared completely; and the enjoyment of golf courses came back down to word of mouth and personal preferences. Architects names should slip back in to obscurity.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Tim Gallant on October 29, 2023, 03:05:42 PM
What are the "positive changes" you think this rant could lead to? Why such high esteem for someone who criticizes others with no evidence whatsover?

Early access to Cabot properties if Ran is an investor should probably raise an eyebrow or two. However, even if the were zero impropriety, and I'm not saying there is, the method of ranking at GOLF is extremely loosey-goosey (https://golf.com/travel/top-100-vote-how-we-decide-our-course-rankings/):

Quote
Because we don’t prescribe a set method to assess courses as other ranks do, no one opinion carries the day — our rank is a democracy. Some panelists believe that enjoyment is the ultimate goal, and thus prioritize design attributes such as width and playing angles, while frowning upon the need to constantly hunt for balls in thick rough. Other panelists value challenge and the demands of hitting every club in the bag. Still others consider a course’s surroundings and overall environment of paramount importance, thereby emphasizing the setting and naturalness of the course. In the end, allowing raters to freely express their tastes is what produces the desired eclecticism in our Top 100 lists.

I'm even confused about how rating happens:

Quote
For the newly released 2023-24 World list, each panelist was provided a ballot that consisted of 504 courses globally. He or she was given seven months to complete it. Beside the list of courses were 11 “buckets,” or groupings. If our panelists considered a course to be among the top three in the world, they ticked that first column. If they believed the course to be among Nos. 4-10 in the world, they checked the next column, followed by 11-25, 26-50, and so on out to 250+ and even a column for remove.

504 course in about 210 days presents obvious issues. It seems entirely unclear if the courses need to actually be played that year to be ranked, and if we are requiring the course to be played, who is keeping track of who is playing what? Supposing all the best intentions, if a course were, say, on a small island off the coast of Tasmania, perhaps only one rater might visit it once that year, which should dramatically increase the variance of it's position (especially if they got a rater that just doesn't like wind). That might just be the way the cookie crumbles, but for someone whose career and well-being is tied to these ratings, it sucks.

As much as they want a diversity of opinion, the folks chosen obviously will have aligned values (why would you choose someone for such a desirable role when you think they're an idiot), so it makes sense that Doak and Cabot properties might punch above their weight on this list. And again, that might just be the breaks for folks with different values, but still, it seems doubly awkward when the people within that handpicked rating circle are rating the properties of the people who picked them.

To put it another way, if would be weird if the W Hotel sponsored the NYT travel and leisure hotel rankings, and chose the expert raters. If the W hotels then were surprisingly highly ranked, and then early access was given to the new W Tokyo, which then was positioned well, I don't think any of us would be out-of-line for rolling our eyes. Lord knows marketing in journalism has been happening for decades:

Marketers Say They Pay for Play in News Media (https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/26/business/media/26message.html) - NYT 2006

Quote
Though product placement in movies and on television shows is a fairly standard practice, it is generally accepted that magazine and newspaper articles, and television and radio news programs, do not accept payment for naming products.

A recent survey, however, challenges that understanding. An annual poll conducted by PR Week magazine and Manning Selvage & Lee, a public relations firm, asked 266 marketing executives if they had ever paid for broadcast or editorial placement. Nearly half said yes. And nearly 46 percent of those who had not paid for placement replied that they would consider doing so in the future.

These lists are supposed to be all in good fun, but they sort of aren't. Rankings are written into contracts. Salaries are dependent on them. We are kidding ourselves if we don't admit that simple access to a place like PV or CP is an extremely valuable commodity that people would want to maintain... so everyone should take these rankings with a grain of salt. Even if absolutely nothing is untoward, I can understand why people with skin in the game might prefer the top ranking institutions have clear, transparent, and strict journalistic standards.

If Oliver is the wrong person to say that, so be it. I don't know him and I don't care. I just think it's a reasonable thing to be said, especially at some cost to his career.


Matt,


A couple of answers to your q's. With the quote that you pulled out, I think it is just awkward wording. We have seven months to complete the ballot, but we include all courses that we have played, and feel comfortable ranking. Note: There are some courses that have done work, and there will be an 'After 2018' as an example, meaning, you shouldn't vote on it if you haven't seen the course since work was completed.


With your Cabot comparisons, there is one thing that I keep coming back to: if they handpicked the panel they thought would vote kindly with their courses, then why have the other Cabot properties slipped in the rankings?
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: John Mayhugh on October 30, 2023, 09:24:25 AM

Matt,
Darius Oliver is EXACTLY the wrong person to drive any discussion of Golf Magazine's ratings. Where was his contempt for their process when Cape Wickham was ranked? He even claims to have misled the public about who designed CW in order to get more panelists interest in visiting. I'm not clear on why anyone considers his comments credible.

You also seem to take for granted that Ran has a conflict of interest with respect to Cabot properties, yet are indifferent to Oliver's.

Perhaps the inclusion of Point Hardy knocked Cape Wickham from 100 to 101 on the list, but is that really the true concern? No matter what happened with new courses like that or Lido (very underrated at 68 IMO), Cape Wickham fell out of the top 100 for some other reason - there are simply not that many new courses added. It makes sense to talk about that huge drop, specifically. But when someone has to resort to personal attacks (that they cannot substantiate), they lose credibility with me. Make an adult, logical argument and I'll listen.



Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Sean_A on October 30, 2023, 09:53:44 AM
What are the "positive changes" you think this rant could lead to? Why such high esteem for someone who criticizes others with no evidence whatsover?

Early access to Cabot properties if Ran is an investor should probably raise an eyebrow or two. However, even if the were zero impropriety, and I'm not saying there is, the method of ranking at GOLF is extremely loosey-goosey (https://golf.com/travel/top-100-vote-how-we-decide-our-course-rankings/):

Quote
Because we don’t prescribe a set method to assess courses as other ranks do, no one opinion carries the day — our rank is a democracy. Some panelists believe that enjoyment is the ultimate goal, and thus prioritize design attributes such as width and playing angles, while frowning upon the need to constantly hunt for balls in thick rough. Other panelists value challenge and the demands of hitting every club in the bag. Still others consider a course’s surroundings and overall environment of paramount importance, thereby emphasizing the setting and naturalness of the course. In the end, allowing raters to freely express their tastes is what produces the desired eclecticism in our Top 100 lists.

I'm even confused about how rating happens:

Quote
For the newly released 2023-24 World list, each panelist was provided a ballot that consisted of 504 courses globally. He or she was given seven months to complete it. Beside the list of courses were 11 “buckets,” or groupings. If our panelists considered a course to be among the top three in the world, they ticked that first column. If they believed the course to be among Nos. 4-10 in the world, they checked the next column, followed by 11-25, 26-50, and so on out to 250+ and even a column for remove.

504 course in about 210 days presents obvious issues. It seems entirely unclear if the courses need to actually be played that year to be ranked, and if we are requiring the course to be played, who is keeping track of who is playing what? Supposing all the best intentions, if a course were, say, on a small island off the coast of Tasmania, perhaps only one rater might visit it once that year, which should dramatically increase the variance of it's position (especially if they got a rater that just doesn't like wind). That might just be the way the cookie crumbles, but for someone whose career and well-being is tied to these ratings, it sucks.

As much as they want a diversity of opinion, the folks chosen obviously will have aligned values (why would you choose someone for such a desirable role when you think they're an idiot), so it makes sense that Doak and Cabot properties might punch above their weight on this list. And again, that might just be the breaks for folks with different values, but still, it seems doubly awkward when the people within that handpicked rating circle are rating the properties of the people who picked them.

To put it another way, if would be weird if the W Hotel sponsored the NYT travel and leisure hotel rankings, and chose the expert raters. If the W hotels then were surprisingly highly ranked, and then early access was given to the new W Tokyo, which then was positioned well, I don't think any of us would be out-of-line for rolling our eyes. Lord knows marketing in journalism has been happening for decades:

Marketers Say They Pay for Play in News Media (https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/26/business/media/26message.html) - NYT 2006

Quote
Though product placement in movies and on television shows is a fairly standard practice, it is generally accepted that magazine and newspaper articles, and television and radio news programs, do not accept payment for naming products.

A recent survey, however, challenges that understanding. An annual poll conducted by PR Week magazine and Manning Selvage & Lee, a public relations firm, asked 266 marketing executives if they had ever paid for broadcast or editorial placement. Nearly half said yes. And nearly 46 percent of those who had not paid for placement replied that they would consider doing so in the future.

These lists are supposed to be all in good fun, but they sort of aren't. Rankings are written into contracts. Salaries are dependent on them. We are kidding ourselves if we don't admit that simple access to a place like PV or CP is an extremely valuable commodity that people would want to maintain... so everyone should take these rankings with a grain of salt. Even if absolutely nothing is untoward, I can understand why people with skin in the game might prefer the top ranking institutions have clear, transparent, and strict journalistic standards.

If Oliver is the wrong person to say that, so be it. I don't know him and I don't care. I just think it's a reasonable thing to be said, especially at some cost to his career.


Matt


I agree that in the world of conflict of interests even the possible appearance of such is not good and should be questioned. However, a guy in the business who also has a conflict of interest isn’t a good spokesperson for the cause. Archie’s are best to stay out of the game entirely. Same for course owners or anybody who has a stake in  the rankings. I always take any ranking with a handful of salt because they are easily manipulated.


Ciao
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: MClutterbuck on November 01, 2023, 06:59:35 PM
It seems that with so many really, really good new courses, and so many really good restorations, the Top 100 list is getting too small in size to comfortably fit all the courses that have a claim to being truly great (and all the money and ego backing these courses).


It seems to me that a Top 200 list starts being more and more relevant, and probably within this list, there should be a ton of courses tied at T-101.



Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Mike Worth on November 01, 2023, 08:19:58 PM
It seems that with so many really, really good new courses, and so many really good restorations, the Top 100 list is getting too small in size to comfortably fit all the courses that have a claim to being truly great (and all the money and ego backing these courses).


It seems to me that a Top 200 list starts being more and more relevant, and probably within this list, there should be a ton of courses tied at T-101.


I’ve felt for sometime that you should divide the chronology of golf into 3 eras. I realize magazines dont all rate by chronological eras, but consider separate lists for:


1888-1960
1961-1994
1995 -present
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: William_G on November 01, 2023, 11:36:38 PM


I’ve felt for sometime that you should divide the chronology of golf into 3 eras. I realize magazines dont all rate by chronological eras, but consider separate lists for:


1888-1960
1961-1994
1995 -present





 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on November 02, 2023, 01:56:19 AM
It seems that with so many really, really good new courses, and so many really good restorations, the Top 100 list is getting too small in size to comfortably fit all the courses that have a claim to being truly great (and all the money and ego backing these courses).


It seems to me that a Top 200 list starts being more and more relevant, and probably within this list, there should be a ton of courses tied at T-101.


I’ve felt for sometime that you should divide the chronology of golf into 3 eras. I realize magazines dont all rate by chronological eras, but consider separate lists for:


1888-1960
1961-1994
1995 -present




The period 1995 - 2023 has produced a minuscule number of golf courses, probably only 150 to 200 from what this website would call the “2nd Golden Age”. The rest of the courses built in that timeframe (primarily before the 2008 crash) are more befitting the “type” of course for which the period 1961-1994 has been defined.


The period before 1960 probably produced over 20,000 courses, a vast number more worthy of consideration but virtually ruled out by sheer number.


So either the current period is producing far better courses than the first period. Or some of the courses are comparatively over-rated. I could make an argument for either the former or the latter. But what I’d really not like to see is a Top-100 from such a limited breadth of overall development represented by this recent period. All you are asking for is a Top-100 that includes 25 of Tom’s 45 courses and approaching a similar number for Coore.
Title: Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
Post by: MClutterbuck on November 02, 2023, 09:01:32 AM
An argument can be made that cheap travel, photography, the Internet, smart phones, drones, modern construction and maintenance machinery and techniques, technology in general, has made new golf courses better, pari-passu.


When I think of how we built the front 9 a few years back, versus how we are building the back 9 at El Desafio now, we are able to get images, movies, drone shots back to the designer real-time, there is a huge change.


Even a firm that has a senior associate on the ground day to day, can consult with his principle and the developer real time, provide all sorts of visuals and make quick adjustments, even risk playing around with a concept that came up during construction and have it checked out real time, approve it or revert to planned concept. Before there is no way that could happen, there was a visit scheduled by when everything had to be finalized. In that sense there is also more room for creativity.


We should not be surprised that, if good general ideas about what a golf course should be prevail, more and more good courses are built proportionally.