Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Rob Marshall on December 19, 2021, 08:14:08 AM
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Just read a post on another site that the rumor in Tampa is that Keiser is going to buy World Woods. I haven't been there in years but I always enjoyed playing there with my father. It true that would be great news. I've heard conditions there recently have been less that ideal.
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Not quite true. He might be a partner in the deal, but he’s not the main protagonist.
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Not quite true. He might be a partner in the deal, but he’s not the main protagonist.
Thanks for the clarification Tom.
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As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic. Tom?
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As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic. Tom?
LOL, I was going to ask that..............
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Ironically potentially a bit sad for some..a raw place that is a great spot to get lost and play. will likely become amazing and great folks will do great work.
lots of jobs in the cooker, interesting to see how it all plays out this time around.
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Why does work need to be done at World Woods?
Asking for a friend.
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Would be interesting to know what they plan to do with the place. I played both courses when they first opened. Didn’t think they were bad, but for some reason I was never compelled to return.
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Ron's implied point is well-taken.
Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed. My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.
Keiser's destination business model would be impactful - the remoteness/lack of lodging/F&B has been the biggest inhibitor to WW economic success.
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Would be interesting to know what they plan to do with the place. I played both courses when they first opened. Didn’t think they were bad, but for some reason I was never compelled to return.
This point is also well taken.
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I've played WW half a dozen times over the years and watched steady decline in conditioning on the golf courses and in the little clubhouse. It could use a face lift. I have always enjoyed the courses. It has a wonderful practice facility and when it first opened a lot of tour players practiced there.
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As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic. Tom?
No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me. And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.
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As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic. Tom?
No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me. And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.
I've been going to WW for years on my way to and back from south west FL. I've always found it to be good courses in decent conditions while not being Florida flat pond country. I even enjoy the rustic nature of the place and the neighbourhood. The decline over the years has had more to do with the cart paths, the carts themselves and the clubhouse rather than the condition of the courses themselves. In December, after the overseed they're OK and then better in March as it warms up. I've always gravitated to Pine Barrens over Rolling Oak for reasons I can't really articulate - maybe to do with a course that feels different in style and setting than what I play here in the great white north. It'd be a shame if it gets turned into another destination resort with eye-watering fees like Streamsong. There is room for both types of places and the green fees as WW at about 20% of those at Streamsong is certainly attractive if you want to do multiple plays.
Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought. Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees. What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you. I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida. I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.
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Is it 18 that kills a left to right hitter or 17 and 18. I hated the finish.
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As a fan of WW and it's potential, TD handiwork there would be fantastic. Tom?
No, I turned down the job to redesign Rolling Oaks; the land just didn’t speak to me. And I’ve got a bunch of other projects I’m committed to, including one for that same client.
I've been going to WW for years on my way to and back from south west FL. I've always found it to be good courses in decent conditions while not being Florida flat pond country. I even enjoy the rustic nature of the place and the neighbourhood. The decline over the years has had more to do with the cart paths, the carts themselves and the clubhouse rather than the condition of the courses themselves. In December, after the overseed they're OK and then better in March as it warms up. I've always gravitated to Pine Barrens over Rolling Oak for reasons I can't really articulate - maybe to do with a course that feels different in style and setting than what I play here in the great white north. It'd be a shame if it gets turned into another destination resort with eye-watering fees like Streamsong. There is room for both types of places and the green fees as WW at about 20% of those at Streamsong is certainly attractive if you want to do multiple plays.
I agree with Bryan.
I've always enjoyed my time at World Woods. Fun, sandy soil and sandily adorned,strategic enough courses in decent enough condition in a cool rustic setting.
Do we really care if a trailer(clubhouse) has deteriorated a bit? I've always been able to get a good sandwich, a cold beer and usually an attractive friendly smile in a comfortable setting
The courses are definitely cartball, so unless they are going to blow them up and start over,they'll stay cartball.
A fancy clubhouse and accompanying fancy green fee after a blowup redo have minimal appeal to me, but I understand the attraction of a developer doing so.
I know it's now not what the original developers envisioned but I've always enjoyed my time there, certainly far more(especially for the $$$) than its upscale weirdly modern hoteled inland semi neigbor, despite their architecturally excellent two(now three-the third I have not seen) courses.
Mike Shea Sweeney kind've summed it up.
It serves a niche, and has its fans.
That said, based on his track record,I'm sure the developer(amazed it's still a secret around here) will improve the courses tremendously in both architecture and conditioning, so that will serve another niche.
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I have heard that it is not Keiser but instead Ben Cowan-Dewar, his partner at Cabot.
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Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought. Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees. What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you. I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida. I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.
Well I didn’t say the last bit you assumed, or anything like it. I just said it didn’t speak to ME.
In general, I’d rather do new work than renovations. I spent a couple of days trying to find a different routing for Rolling Oaks I liked better, but the trees have grown so much in thirty years’ time that I couldn’t see better alternatives that didn’t involve a ton of clearing. That’s not as appealing as something like The National in Australia, where there were perfect green sites lying in the open, and the existing routing was obviously bad.
Actually I don’t think the routing of Rolling Oaks is bad at all. That was the problem. I’m just not into doing a makeover when there are so many new jobs on offer.
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Why does work need to be done at World Woods?
Asking for a friend.
Because it's a pretty lousy golf course. The greens make no sense to me, the strategy is poor, the obvious cuts made to build the course reminded me of the 60' - 70's. It was overhyped, the Pine Valley of the south, I don't think so.
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Re the bolded quote from above, I'd be interested in what went into that thought. Rolling Oak is a pretty sandy site with some reasonable elevation change and some old growth trees. What more (other than an ocean bordering the land) would be required for the land to speak to you. I guess I always found the site to be attractive for golfing as it is quite different from our northern climes and way better than the flat palm tree and pond south Florida. I get the too busy part of the quote as a reason to turn down the job, but not the part that the land is somehow lacking to do good work.
Well I didn’t say the last bit you assumed, or anything like it. I just said it didn’t speak to ME.
In general, I’d rather do new work than renovations. I spent a couple of days trying to find a different routing for Rolling Oaks I liked better, but the trees have grown so much in thirty years’ time that I couldn’t see better alternatives that didn’t involve a ton of clearing. That’s not as appealing as something like The National in Australia, where there were perfect green sites lying in the open, and the existing routing was obviously bad.
Actually I don’t think the routing of Rolling Oaks is bad at all. That was the problem. I’m just not into doing a makeover when there are so many new jobs on offer.
Thanks for the further insights. Sorry for the inference/assumption - it's easy to read things wrong in short posts. It did occur to me that rerouting it would be a big job given the many mature trees.
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Why does work need to be done at World Woods?
Asking for a friend.
Because it's a pretty lousy golf course. The greens make no sense to me, the strategy is poor, the obvious cuts made to build the course reminded me of the 60' - 70's. It was overhyped, the Pine Valley of the south, I don't think so.
Wow, Ryan, that's pretty harsh! Who knew Fazio so missed the boat as to design two lousy courses on one property. Are you speaking of Pine Barrens or Rolling Oak or both. Rolling Oak was supposedly in honour of Augusta and hence the somewhat wilder greens. Anyway, different strokes for different folks.
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Ryan Farrow...your opinion of "it's a pretty lousy golf course" is interesting to me. First, "it" is two golf courses, so I'd love to know which one you reference. Second, the others on this thread have yet to utter a word similar to "lousy." I'm not discounting your opinion; I love a rogue opinion that turns out to be the correct one, so...
Can you elaborate on both points? Thanks in advance...rm
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It’s been at least 15 years since I’ve been there but Pine Barron’s is far from a lousy golf course. I think TD had it a 6 or 7 if I remember.
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I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine. The routing is just plain bad. The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).
The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.
PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.
Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does. The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row.
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I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine. The routing is just plain bad. The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).
The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.
PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.
Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does. The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row.
Funny, I always preferred Rolling Oaks as well.
Not sure if "the land spoke to me" or it was just less crowded, but I really liked the feel of the place(maybe it's because I'm from Augusta ;) )
World Woods was a big step in the right direction, it's just that architecture. architectural taste and golf itself have evolved quite a bit since the 80's.
I am confident the new finished product will be far better(when judged by today's standards) but let's not discount that WW was a prety good place for its time, especially given the destination resort/daily fee choices, and new build architecture/developments of the era.
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Interesting.
For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent. Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes.
Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?
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Ron's implied point is well-taken.
Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed. My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.
The property is a mess, mainly because the owner hasn't been on property for 5 years and has run it into the ground.
It's never had a clubhouse, instead opting for a double wide trailer. There's never been accommodations despite plenty of land.
Water runs downhill from Rolling Oaks onto the Pine Barrens course causing flooding.
The equipment is 20 years old and they can't find enough help to maintain the courses.
The unique 360 degree range built 25 years ago is now too short and needs to be expanded. The par 3 course gets virtually no play.
The rough lines, grassing, sandy waste area and bunkers have all deteriorated and need to be completely rebuilt.
The irrigation and drainage systems all need to be replaced at a cost of $2-$4 million. The course needs at least $1 million in tree work.
I agree with Tom that Rolling Oaks is missing something??? I thought Pine Barrens could be the best course in Florida. There's land for a 3rd course but that's probably going to be turned into a real estate development.
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Interesting.
For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent. Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes.
Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?
I don't think that the imperative to change the two courses would be as strong if they were had been built to be walkable. Walkability is not just a changing taste, but one of the principal trademarks of the new ownership team, so that implies that changes will be necessary, and it's not solely about drawing renewed attention to the place.
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Ron's implied point is well-taken.
Probably not extensive restoration/renovation work needed. My understanding is both WW courses have decayed over the years -- which has kept me away. Always wondered why routing, of both PB & RO, were not more walker-friendly.
The irrigation and drainage systems all need to be replaced at a cost of $2-$4 million. The course needs at least $1 million in tree work.
I get that maintenance has been deferred for years....and that a fancy irrigation salesman could find a way to sell $4 million worth on 36 large scale holes....(there's a chasm between "2" and "4" MILLION as well)
but I'm a little stunnned to hear $1 million(at least) "needs" to be spent in tree work...in the ruralburbs of Brooksville?
not denying tree work needs to be done.
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Pine Barrens may be the *only* candidate in the world that qualifies for the *strictest defintion* of the word restoration.
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I suspect the new ownerships' golf DNA will lead to a good number of positive changes.
The play to own this facility appears to be a very smart one. Florida is a rapidly growing state both for relocation and tourism traffic. It is most likely the single biggest state for new golf facility growth as well and although primarily focused on the East Coast today, land prices and development opportunity are far more reasonable on its West Coast. Proximity to the elaborate and highly accessible Tampa/St. Pete transportation infrastructure is highly attractive.
Couple the above with what may best one of the most valuable golf-travel databases and voila....you have a highly opportunistic situation. Hats off to what should be a shrewd purchase of a tired asset that can, and likely will, be swiftly rejuvenated.
FWIW...I too strongly doubt the expected tree work would amount to $1M, the hard and softwoods down that way are valuable in and of themselves and could be farmed out to a local/regional lumber company for a fraction of the price that a tree-service firm might charge.
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I haven't been for a couple of years because of Covid, but they were doing tree work in the years before that.
So, the main issue with PB is the green to tee walks through the central nexus of 1-2, 6-7, 11-12, and 17-18? How do you fix that without rerouting the whole course?
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I played golf with Ryan that day. We only played Pine Barrens and his critiques of the golf course are similar to mine.
The routing is just plain bad.
Why is the routing bad? Anything other than the sometimes lengthy green to tee distances befitting a cart ball course?
The greens are often divorced from anything going on from the tee (the 6th hole is among the more egregious examples).
Could you expand on what you mean? For the 6th, a par 5 heading west that's a three shot hole for most of us, what's going on from the tee is a straight away drive across a shallow valley and up to a small ridge in the fairway with waste area left and slope off to the trees on the right. The second is also a straight away shot down a gentle slope to a low area in front of the green. The green is small and circular and displaced a bit to the right. I suppose if you're a long skilled player you could hug the waste area on the left and try and hit a high cut to the green. I don't understand how you would want to "marry" what going on at the tee with the green. How is the hole set up "divorced". Granted there isn't a whole lot of strategy here, but I don't get the divorced comment.
The much spoke of Strategy of the 4th hole lays down if you can carry a tee shot 250 yards. A hole where the best play is 250 down the middle is hardly strategic. The more strategic Par 5 is the 14th… by far.
I guess if you're a long skilled player then there's one obvious way to play the 4th - hit it over the quarry to the right fairway and then hoist it over the next quarry area to the green. For those of us less log and less skilled there are other options that may be safer and more doable. Where to place the 2nd shot if you don't go for the green provides a number of options. I agree the 14th is a better hole but there really isn't a whole lot more strategy. Keep it long and right off the tee and you have a relatively open second shot. Drive left and you're pretty much forced to hit it up to the higher ground on the right.
PB has the best Par 3 (10), Par 4 (8th), and Par 5 (14) on the property yet fails to remain cohesive enough to capitalize on that.
Could you give more insight on the "cohesion" that is lacking between the good holes that you mention. What would you have done that would have made it better.
Pine Barrens does not pass the “walk in the park” test. Rolling Oaks does. I'm not sure what your walk in the park test entails, but I've always enjoyed the walk for the parts I've walked, given it's primarily a cart ball course. I always get a good feeling in the quiet pine forest environment. Rolling Oak is certainly a harder walk, but then I don't understand your definition of a walk in the park. Certainly the Spanish moss draped oaks are attractive for those of us from northern climes. The back nine of Rolling Oaks is as good of a routing that can exist on a golf course. I’ll often play Rolling Oaks back to back on visits. I’ll never play Pine Barrens twice in a row. Back in the day when I played twice a day I did PB twice to the exclusion of RO. Different tastes I guess. C'est la vie.
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I walked both Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks when I visited WW in November 2018. If you're looking for poster-children for unwalkable golf in Florida, there are hundreds of better examples, IMO.
The routing issue with PB, at least for me, mainly revolves around the consecutive long walks to finish: from 16 green to 17 tee, then from 17 green to 18 tee. Some flow does materialize in the walk before that point, but the finish is awkward.
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I walked both Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks when I visited WW in November 2018. If you're looking for poster-children for unwalkable golf in Florida, there are hundreds of better examples, IMO.
The routing issue with PB, at least for me, mainly revolves around the consecutive long walks to finish: from 16 green to 17 tee, then from 17 green to 18 tee. Some flow does materialize in the walk before that point, but the finish is awkward.
Pine Barrens has a LOT of 100- to 150-yard walks because of that Gordian knot crossover from 1-2, 11-12, and 6-7, and really just because they weren't trying to get the tees close to the greens at all. It could be routed much better. But to do that, you'll have to blow up a lot of things, taking away from its legacy as one of Fazio's best designs.
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I’ve played WW on buddy trips many times and it has always been a fave.
A tune-up would be welcome and I think a ginormous success.
My last visit was in March 2018.
Photo albums:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWPineBarrens/index.html (http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWPineBarrens/index.html)
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWRollingOaks/index.html (http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/WWRollingOaks/index.html)
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Like Joe I've played it many times. While never a lets get there place it's solid. Could it be better, absolutely!!!
I remember hearing about it from a FL friend in around 90-91. Think about that. How many multi-course developments that draw people to it have been built since then? Bandon, Sand Valley, Streamsong, Whistling Straits. Each of them are much much better than WW today. It's got good bones, they could both be better.
In the end fast forward 4 years, were all going to see what they've done but are we going there rather than the previous list? It's a high bar to hit.
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Looking at Google Earth, is the Dunes Club just west of it still open? Looks like it could be a sister course to the resort and perhaps a better candidate for a redo? Anyone played it?
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Looking at Google Earth, is the Dunes Club just west of it still open? Looks like it could be a sister course to the resort and perhaps a better candidate for a redo? Anyone played it?
Not open anymore and a real loss. Very good. Four different, all excellent, Par 3s.
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Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?
Most of us will be dead, so it won’t matter. ;D
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This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on. WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs.
I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere. Guess what: the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale. Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean.
Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber)
Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer
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This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on. WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs.
I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere. Guess what: the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale. Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean.
Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber)
Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer
Whew, a lot to unpack in this rant.
Everything OK at home?
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The important thing about WW is that it is an inexpensive trip for winter golf somewhat like Myrtle Beach during other seasons. I agree that improved conditioning would be great and a nice clubhouse would be good but if it then approaches Streamsong prices it would be a shame to the guys who cannot afford Streamsong prices.
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This thread suggests conditions and amenities are more important than most would let on. WW is - or was a few years ago a darned good value and a solid group destination coupled with accommodations at The Chaz. The criticism of its "frumpiness" and walkability arguably serve as a litmus test for golf architecture snobs.
I guess it's only a "great big world" if you belong to a tony private club somewhere. Guess what: the "great big world" is its biggest at the lower end of the Doak scale. Some of you guys need to get out of the stream and swim in the ocean.
Some of us are just "good old boys out making noise:"
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ambush-whiskey-fiber)
Mike
A Pretty Lousy Golfer
Whew, a lot to unpack in this rant.
Everything OK at home?
Sounds like Michael H is spot on....what do you think he needs to unpack....the only issue I see with his comments is that most on here that talk of the "toney private clubs" could not get in...
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I didn't take Bogey Hendren as ranting at all. He is a barometer to remind us that there are many on this site who don't sniff out invitations to the elite of the elite, and that many of us should reassess what golf is. In fact, I've never known Bogey to rant on GCA. He states his case, in the manner that an efficient and successful barrister would do. A collection of his observations would serve us all well.
My friend just returned from WW, and indicated that this was not a banner week for the courses. Splotchy greens running at 1890 speeds.
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Well said Michael and Jerry - from someone who has never been on one of the private top tier US courses.
RoMo, that's sad to hear as I hope to be there next week. Maybe they'll desplotch the greens by then. I'm sure I'll enjoy the peace and milieu of standing on PB's 1st tee anyway. And the greens on my home course were no great shakes before they got covered in snow.
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I didn't take Bogey Hendren as ranting at all. He is a barometer to remind us that there are many on this site who don't sniff out invitations to the elite of the elite, and that many of us should reassess what golf is. In fact, I've never known Bogey to rant on GCA. He states his case, in the manner that an efficient and successful barrister would do. A collection of his observations would serve us all well.
My friend just returned from WW, and indicated that this was not a banner week for the courses. Splotchy greens running at 1890 speeds.
Agree....except for the "barrister" part...
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Interesting.
For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent. Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes.
Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?
I don't think it will take 20 years... ;D ;D
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I played WW a number of times in the first year or two after it opened and back then, while the owners still had delusions of grandeur, the conditions were impeccable and as good as any public courses in Florida. PB, was also in the top 3 or 4 Fazio courses I've ever played. I remember it being $100 for 36 holes with a guy grilling hamburgers and hot dogs at the turn. Almost 30 years later I don't think the price has gone up by much, if at all.
10 years after opening I went out there with a friend and the greens were running at about a 5 on the stimp meter and the conditions were so bad that it was the closest I ever came to asking for my money back at a golf course. In the short term after that I heard conditions had improved but then began going steadily downhill over the years.
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Bryan Izatt,
Let's be clear that I am a fan of both courses. Pine Barrens looks sexier and I think that distracts from the concept that it truly is the lesser of the two offerings at World Woods. It's a bit of a strange concept really because it is most certainly the course to play if you're going to play only one of them.
It wears thing after about the 4th round, though.
When you have null space in a routing - there better be a reason. I don't expect a walk along the Pacific a la Cypress Point 14-15-16 but there needs to be something other than "I had a quarry and couldn't do anything other than parallel holes through it, only two of which are really noteworthy."
Which explains the acre-plus null space you find between 1-2, 6-7, 11-12, and 17-18. Four times. Same flat boring spot.
And now to your question: what else can you do? The answer is probably nothing. And that is why the golf course simply isn't as good as the other. It's hamstrung by a few noteworthy holes and one too many transition holes that exist at the expense of cohesion.
The "walk in the park" simply isn't all that compelling.
The crescendo also peaks much too early at 15 and the outro is but a frustrating-to-hear whisper. Can you remember much of 18 other than it's exceptionally difficult? How about 17?
Do you remember 13?
Is there a point to the right side green on 12? Is the left side green playable with that carry over a "waste area" from which you get relief?
And that's where things have deteriorated. The golf course in it's previous iteration became unmaintainable by it's owner. So much so that you had to cease playing golf in order to make it through the round. Guess what? Compelling, sandy, golf costs money. Pine Barrens costs money. The more understated Rolling Oaks is what helps keep it affordable AND it's a superior routing.
I'll revisit the greens lack of strategy in a subsequent post.
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So we must accept the premise that NO design can really defend against well-struck, high, long, accurate shots. In doing so, strategy becomes the application of the limit of our skill to the question posed by the golf course as an equal to/slightly less than equal alternative to the howitzer onslaught of a player playing at peak.
Pine Barrens, in my ways, appears to provide this alternate for the clever player. That is, until one gets to the putting surface.
#4: Is there really any better approach to this green than from the flat part of the fairway, in the middle of the corridor? Is the left accessible? Side hill lie to side hill green?
#6: There is a compelling move to the left here, especially on the second shot. Maybe the green could offer a bit of a run up and back stop to the player willing to trade a little distance for a better run-up shot? Nope. The camber of the green rejects anything from this left side.
#12: Pick a green. Both aren't terrible conducive to a particular play.
#13: Could be all world with that approach area. Instead it's just carry and carry.
#14: Okay, this one is good.
#15: All world driveable Par-4. But it's just a make/buy decision. Once you lay up, it doesn't really matter. Pick a yardage/duck... everyone's a winner.
#18: High. Straight. Maybe you can bounce youre third shot in.
Easy comparisons:
#4 Rolling Oaks: Outside the dogleg and the green angles DIRECTLY to the golfer. Try to cut the corner and you have a shorter shot to a smaller target.
#5 Rolling Oaks: Challenge the bunker left and have a clear view of the green in two. Play safe down the right and tack around the tree. The safe tee shot does offer an out down the right side if you can curve the ball. Compelling stuff...
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I hope they restore the Fazio and build additional courses, but I get the sense that won't happen.
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The original concept was for the founding Asian company to build 5 golf courses and two theme-type park hotels as well as extensive housing. Pretty remarkable that 25 years later the place remains basically frozen since the day it opened.
I heard a story once that early on Faz was so taken by the twin layouts that his annual outing for his firm (like Tom's Renaissance Cup) was held at WW - - which very much pissed off the folks at Black Diamond!
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Interesting.
For a group of people who consider it sacrilege to modify Golden Age courses, everyone is sure eager to take out the scalpel (or bulldozer) to something a little more recent. Since WW was ranked in the top 100 for many years, it's not because of the quality of the course, but because of changing tastes.
Will all of you be so eager to hack up the current favorites in 20 years when rugged bunkers are no longer in style and trees regain their popularity?
I don't think that the imperative to change the two courses would be as strong if they were had been built to be walkable. Walkability is not just a changing taste, but one of the principal trademarks of the new ownership team, so that implies that changes will be necessary, and it's not solely about drawing renewed attention to the place.
Isn't that the justification everyone gives to carving up courses? "Fast greens are one of the principal trademarks of this club, so we need to flatten them". "Having a beautiful walk in the park is one of the principal trademarks of our club so we'll be planting 3,000 trees". "Beauty is important to our board, so we'll be bringing in Ted Robinson to add waterfalls and landscaping". "Making money is the goal of our ownership, so we'll be taking out half of the bunkers and adding housing along all of the fairways."
Mind you, I'm an owner and I think I can do what I want, but I'm surprised I don't hear the "golf courses are works of art" folks crying when a Fazio gets threatened.
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Looks like Cowan / Cabot
https://twitter.com/drewharvie/status/1475929960938409990?s=21 (https://twitter.com/drewharvie/status/1475929960938409990?s=21)
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I wonder what is envisioned with Southern Woods and Sugarmill Woods? Besides the proximity to World Woods, they appear to be typical Florida housing development courses. A quick Google search didn't yield much info except the two courses were designed by Hale Irwin and Ron Garl. Perhaps its easier/cheaper to mold those into something noteworthy than building additional courses on the excess land at WW.
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I wonder what is envisioned with Southern Woods and Sugarmill Woods? Besides the proximity to World Woods, they appear to be typical Florida housing development courses. A quick Google search didn't yield much info except the two courses were designed by Hale Irwin and Ron Garl. Perhaps its easier/cheaper to mold those into something noteworthy than building additional courses on the excess land at WW.
It’s never easier, and rarely cheaper, to re-purpose an existing course, if you take initial land costs out of the equation. Cart path demolition and disposal, compromised drainage systems and antiquated irrigation systems that become problematic are far more expensive to deal with(correctly!) than most imagine.
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I wonder what is envisioned with Southern Woods and Sugarmill Woods? Besides the proximity to World Woods, they appear to be typical Florida housing development courses. A quick Google search didn't yield much info except the two courses were designed by Hale Irwin and Ron Garl. Perhaps its easier/cheaper to mold those into something noteworthy than building additional courses on the excess land at WW.
The Hale Irwin course is decent but the Garl course was terrible. It's possible to give these courses to the home owners association. I didn't see much synergy between these and World Woods.
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https://www.torontogolfnuts.com/forum/golf-discussion-forum/golf-courses/3486445-cabot-purchases-world-woods-among-others-in-florida
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A better link:
https://www.torontogolfnuts.com/forum/golf-discussion-forum/golf-courses/3486445-cabot-purchases-world-woods-among-others-in-florida
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A better link:
https://www.torontogolfnuts.com/forum/golf-discussion-forum/golf-courses/3486445-cabot-purchases-world-woods-among-others-in-florida (https://www.torontogolfnuts.com/forum/golf-discussion-forum/golf-courses/3486445-cabot-purchases-world-woods-among-others-in-florida)
Nothing I haven't posted here. The official press embargo for the aquisition lifts on Monday, so maybe more news will come out.
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Goodbye World Woods, hello Cabot Citrus Farms: https://cabotcitrusfarms.com/?utm_content=193824521&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-149107150
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Part of the "Cabot Collection" good marketing speak. Wondering who is doing the renovations at the courses? C&C I assume for at least 1 is typical.
The development will operate as World Woods in the near term and begin renovations in the spring of 2022. Cabot Citrus Farms will open in 2023 with world-class amenities including two revitalized 18-hole courses, a par-3 course, a new clubhouse and practice facilities with a putting course and driving range.
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BethpageBlackMetal on instagram posted a rumor that it would be C&C for pine barrens and DeVries for Rolling Oaks. Not sure if this is right.
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BethpageBlackMetal on instagram posted a rumor that it would be C&C for pine barrens and DeVries for Rolling Oaks. Not sure if this is right.
You mean Darius Oliver's proxy? ;D
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
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FWIW, here's my GolfPass piece on it. What stood out to me from chatting with Ben about it was that ease of walking will be a focus of the renovations: https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/world-woods-golf-club-cabot-citrus-farms-ben-cowan-dewar-mike-keiser (https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/world-woods-golf-club-cabot-citrus-farms-ben-cowan-dewar-mike-keiser)
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
Back when it first opened you could get a nice 36 hole day for $100
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BethpageBlackMetal on instagram posted a rumor that it would be C&C for pine barrens and DeVries for Rolling Oaks. Not sure if this is right.
Is that based on inside info or just wishful thinking?
Those weren't the names that the client mentioned to me, but maybe he's had a change of heart.
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BethpageBlackMetal on instagram posted a rumor that it would be C&C for pine barrens and DeVries for Rolling Oaks. Not sure if this is right.
Is that based on inside info or just wishful thinking?
Those weren't the names that the client mentioned to me, but maybe he's had a change of heart.
That was the original rumours swirling, but it is incorrect now.
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
It's pretty far from Streamsong--probably more than 2 hours.
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Assuming the embargo is now over, it would be lovely if the esteemed BC-D might be up for updating us (as far as he might be able!)
F.
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
It's pretty far from Streamsong--probably more than 2 hours.
That's true but you could stay in Tampa and be at either resort in about 1 1/4 hours. Or stay a night or two at each resort for a golf trip.
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
It's pretty far from Streamsong--probably more than 2 hours.
That's true but you could stay in Tampa and be at either resort in about 1 1/4 hours. Or stay a night or two at each resort for a golf trip.
Exactly,
Using the "flying-in" standard, there could be a lot more who decide to spend say 2 days at each resort, instead of 3-4 at Streamsong. If I was betting on it in retrospect, I don't know if they would have bothered buying WW if Streamsong wasn't close enough to justify the purchase.
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Seems like it could be a win, even if they do price out the modest income golfing crowd. The names affiliated with the project alone could attract deeper pockets, especially coupled with a few days at Streamstrong.
It's pretty far from Streamsong--probably more than 2 hours.
That's true but you could stay in Tampa and be at either resort in about 1 1/4 hours. Or stay a night or two at each resort for a golf trip.
Exactly,
Using the "flying-in" standard, there could be a lot more who decide to spend say 2 days at each resort, instead of 3-4 at Streamsong. If I was betting on it in retrospect, I don't know if they would have bothered buying WW if Streamsong wasn't close enough to justify the purchase.
With all due respect, I don't think the proximity to Streamsong made much, if any, difference.
This property was a perfect opportunity to pick two courses in need of major TLC, close to a major, attractive & growing MSA with a healthy option to build and sell/rent associated real estate. Ben & company are very smart and have an immensely valuable database asset to lever out on a domestic US footprint.
I think regardless of whomever they hire for course architecture, WW will be a success.
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https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/cabot-acquires-world-woods-and-plans-redevelopment
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Man, I agree. What in God's name does the proximity to Streamsong have to do with WW? I have been going to WW since it opened (Streamsong too). WW is just an hour up the road from the home club.
Love WW and wish Ben etal the best in whatever they do to improve it.
As an aside I've always considered WW an out-of-the-way somewhat sleepy, "what-it-could-be" pair of quality Fizzio courses. But also a WAAAY cool destination to get the boys together and drive up for a day or two of both quality golf and friendly bantering and imbibing.
But one of the more funkier aspects of spending a couple days there is staying at the "resort" - and a Biiiiiigggg stretch saying resort - at Homosassa Springs. One step up from a biker bar - the RV park, dance hall, great bar, run down hotel, killer good grouper sandwiches, manatees galore and the 70 year-old Monkey Island captures everything cool about central rural Florida. I so hope that aspect is never lost.
An upgrade to the WW golf course is needed but what is not is an upscale glitzy Nth-star getaway hotel in the FL hill country. Love the Streamsong courses but staying there, frankly, leaves me cold!
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Too bad the buyers didn't take a run at the nearby, now defunct Dunes/Seville GC. I thought it was one of Arthur Hills' best, a real hidden gem. Too far away from the beaches?
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The turf is the biggest aspect that needs fixing.
It's never played optimally.
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Lou Duran's post reminded me of a long-ago day (2014) when I played Rolling Oaks at World Woods in the morning and the Dunes/Seville GC in the afternoon. I enjoyed both courses, although they combined to rough me up a bit. Damn shame about Hill's course. Looking forward to seeing the next iteration of World Woods.
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
Or any odder than saying Youngstown, Ohio is in the Midwest despite being only 400 miles away from the Atlantic Ocean, and over 2500 miles to the Pacific Ocean. ;)
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The turf is the biggest aspect that needs fixing.
It's never played optimally.
The entire course is going to be re-grassed with a new strain of Bermuda. WW has never updated the grass. This will follow new irrigation and drainage with Pine Barrens (which sits on the lower part of the property) probably being sand capped.
I think it will be interesting to see if they follow Streamsong with the new Mach 1 greens?
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
Or any odder than saying Youngstown, Ohio is in the Midwest despite being only 400 miles away from the Atlantic Ocean, and over 2500 miles to the Pacific Ocean. ;)
When I moved from SD to PA after college and people would refer to OH as the Midwest I had to dig out an atlas for them. I explained to them that the geographical center of the US is near Belle Fourche, SD. So when they would say "what is OH considered then?" I would lovingly refer to it as the "Middle-East"
Even the center of the country based upon population instead of strictly geography is on the Indiana/Illinois border, near[size=78%] Kentucky.[/size]
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I’ve always loved WW and enjoyed the variety between the two courses. I’ve never been too worried about the rustic feel of the place nor the modest clubhouse.
But when I played there in late December, I was shocked at how poor the conditions were. Not poor by “world class” standards, but poor for my local $20 muni course standards. I still enjoyed the day because of the routing, but it was jarring. I’ve played there over the past several years (same time of year), and while conditions weren’t ideal, they had been 10 times better than last month.
The news of changed ownership is welcome to protect such a great design from neglect. But I am concerned whether this project will make it a “destination” course rather than an upper level public access course. I’d hate to see the local golfers who have played it in lesser conditions become priced out by the destination model.
Having said that, I recognize that such an investment needs to get repaid. But I’m hoping that may happen with a 70-80% green fee increase as opposed to the 400% increase one may expect in the destination model.
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
Or any odder than saying Youngstown, Ohio is in the Midwest despite being only 400 miles away from the Atlantic Ocean, and over 2500 miles to the Pacific Ocean. ;)
Kalen,
Anyone in PA will tell you that Pittsburgh is also in the Midwest. Heck if my house was 15 miles west of here crossing the Route 81 delineation point I'd be in the Midwest! ;D
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
To me, both are odd and poor names. That said, likely won't matter as the product should deliver.
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
Or any odder than saying Youngstown, Ohio is in the Midwest despite being only 400 miles away from the Atlantic Ocean, and over 2500 miles to the Pacific Ocean. ;)
Kalen,
Anyone in PA will tell you that Pittsburgh is also in the Midwest. Heck if my house was 15 miles west of here crossing the Route 81 delineation point I'd be in the Midwest! ;D
Not to get too far off track, but in Canada, Toronto is East Coast (lol), which only adds to the confusion of Pittsburgh being midwest.
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Pittsburgh says pop for soda.
QED.
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Daryl,
That's how I see it too. I've always though if one identifies the West, Middle, and Eastern parts of the country, then the "Mid-West" would be somewhere around Wyoming.
P.S. Laughs on the convo with the locals, safe to say Middle East might be the most correct description for some of those areas.
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Daryl,
That's how I see it too. I've always though if one identifies the West, Middle, and Eastern parts of the country, then the "Mid-West" would be somewhere around Wyoming.
P.S. Laughs on the convo with the locals, safe to say Middle East might be the most correct description for some of those areas.
Kalen,
Of course you know it has to do with the time period in which the terms became common. Even the USGA used to refer to Chicago as the west!
Cheers
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Daryl,
That's how I see it too. I've always though if one identifies the West, Middle, and Eastern parts of the country, then the "Mid-West" would be somewhere around Wyoming.
P.S. Laughs on the convo with the locals, safe to say Middle East might be the most correct description for some of those areas.
Kalen,
Of course you know it has to do with the time period in which the terms became common. Even the USGA used to refer to Chicago as the west!
Cheers
Yea it get it.
The term was first coined in the late 1800's and it certainly made a lot of sense...then.
However, 125+ years later, and its still being used by the United States Census Bureau and other gov't orgs to refer to that region? Just terrific ::)
P.S. By that standard they may as well still refer to California, Nevada, and Arizona as Mexico. At the very least that would probably please a few people in this forum.
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Fred Rodgers was from Pittsburgh, mid-west vs north-east is not as much a matter of geography as it is how people think and act.
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At least they aren't naming it Streamsong North.
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Do you have any eights?
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Of course you know it has to do with the time period in which the terms became common. Even the USGA used to refer to Chicago as the west!
Well, that's because the Western Golf Association is based in Chicago.
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Hail! to the victors valiant[/size]Hail! to the conquering heroesHail! Hail! to michiganThe leaders and best!Hail! To the victors valiantHail! to the conquering heroesHail! Hail! to michiganThe champions of the west![/color]
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The Midwest states are those between the Appalachians (https://www.britannica.com/place/Appalachian-Mountains) and Rocky Mountains (https://www.britannica.com/place/Rocky-Mountains) and north of the Ohio River (https://www.britannica.com/place/Ohio-River) and the 37th parallel. The Midwest, as defined by the federal government, comprises (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprises) the states of Illinois (https://www.britannica.com/place/Illinois-state), Indiana (https://www.britannica.com/place/Indiana-state), Iowa (https://www.britannica.com/place/Iowa-state), Kansas (https://www.britannica.com/place/Kansas), Michigan (https://www.britannica.com/place/Michigan), Minnesota (https://www.britannica.com/place/Minnesota), Missouri (https://www.britannica.com/place/Missouri-state), Nebraska (https://www.britannica.com/place/Nebraska-state), North Dakota (https://www.britannica.com/place/North-Dakota), Ohio (https://www.britannica.com/place/Ohio-state), South Dakota (https://www.britannica.com/place/South-Dakota), and Wisconsin (https://www.britannica.com/place/Wisconsin).
[/size]
[/size](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51818238807_f491c53e39_m.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/czs782)Midwest (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/czs782)
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I’ve always loved WW and enjoyed the variety between the two courses. I’ve never been too worried about the rustic feel of the place nor the modest clubhouse.
But when I played there in late December, I was shocked at how poor the conditions were. Not poor by “world class” standards, but poor for my local $20 muni course standards. I still enjoyed the day because of the routing, but it was jarring. I’ve played there over the past several years (same time of year), and while conditions weren’t ideal, they had been 10 times better than last month.
The news of changed ownership is welcome to protect such a great design from neglect. But I am concerned whether this project will make it a “destination” course rather than an upper level public access course. I’d hate to see the local golfers who have played it in lesser conditions become priced out by the destination model.
Having said that, I recognize that such an investment needs to get repaid. But I’m hoping that may happen with a 70-80% green fee increase as opposed to the 400% increase one may expect in the destination model.
I too was there just before New Year's and I'd give an alternate view of conditions. The overseed fairways were well filled in. The tees were fine. They had run a sand-pro through all the waste areas on PB which is a first in my going there for more than 20 years. There was a large pile of tree trunks where they had removed mature what looked like a fair number of mature trees. The greens were not great but not shockingly bad. They have a moss problem on some areas of some greens. But coming from a northern course with similar moss problems it wasn't a great shock given the price was right. Oh, and the carts all were new compared to two years ago. So, I hope people don't give the courses a pass before they get upgraded based on these conditions reports.
I share your thoughts and wishes about the likely "destination" direction. If I wanted to spend a lot of money I could stop by Streamsong. When I don't, I guess there's always Juliette Falls, just up the back roads. It's greens were good at least they were when I was there.
P.S. If you go, beware the cart paths -- the tree roots are outmuscling the concrete paths. And on the way out there are some pretty wicked tree root based speed bumps in the roadway.
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Pardon for not reading every post or article posted on this, but to summarize please correct me:
- MK and team bought WW and transforming the name to Cabot Citrus
- Will renovate both courses with TBD architects
- Expand housing there?
- Building a network for members to golf at? Is this public or private or what are the details/scenarios with this?
I'm most interested in this Cabot network as I think the St. Lucia is private or will be? How does this portfolio fit together if at all?
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Cabot Citrus Farms is a bit of an odd name given that there isn't much, if any, citrus grown within 45 minutes of the site.
Maybe they'll plant some along the entry drive?
Is it more odd than Cabot Pacific being 6 hours from the Pacific Ocean?
Or any odder than saying Youngstown, Ohio is in the Midwest despite being only 400 miles away from the Atlantic Ocean, and over 2500 miles to the Pacific Ocean. ;)
Kalen,
Anyone in PA will tell you that Pittsburgh is also in the Midwest. Heck if my house was 15 miles west of here crossing the Route 81 delineation point I'd be in the Midwest! ;D
grew up in Pittsburgh, and never heard it being referred to as in the Midwest. PA is Mid-Atlantic.
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grew up in Pittsburgh, and never heard it being referred to as in the Midwest. PA is Mid-Atlantic.
I grew up just south of Pittsburgh and I don’t know what to call it. It doesn’t seem like Midwest or North or Atlantic.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2022/01/10/cabot-adds-first-us-golf-property-in-florida-joining-canada-and-saint-lucia
https://cabotcitrusfarms.com/
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Good post Steve. More insights:
"The purchase price for World Woods wasn’t disclosed. Cabot officials also acquired two other facilities from the same ownership group that are already part of a golf community in an adjoining town: the 27 holes at Sugarmill Woods Country Club designed by Ron Garl and the Hale Irwin-designed Southern Woods. Both Citrus County clubs are less than 10 minutes away from World Woods – soon to be Cabot Citrus Farms — though Cabot’s plans for those properties have yet to be finalized."
Well no idea of purchase price, but 2 other facilities are now in the fold with WW. Never heard of either so not sure the value or what synergy they are planning, but clearly there is a plan which is "make no little plans".
So with the 36 at WW along with a planned par 3 course, putting course, 27 at Sugarmill and 18 at SW, they have quite the portfolio in one location via this purchase.
Also not sure if the author is a shareholder, but some pretty grandiouse claims here:"Golf remains central to the Cabot brand, which aspires to future growth and a global presence not unlike the Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts."
Comparing the future presence to the Four Seasons, is no little plan.
"Fazio’s Pine Barrens, that has been ranked among the top 100 public courses in the country and a style that’s been compared to Pine Valley in New Jersey, widely considered the world’s No. 1 golf course. The facility’s conditioning had declined in recent years, however, before being put up for sale by its Japanese ownership group"
If all it takes is conditioning to become Pine Valley there is hope for hundreds of other courses. :D
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I think it will be interesting to see if they follow Streamsong with the new Mach 1 greens?
Joel, Thanks for the 411.
I suspect Mach 1 won't make the cut. Brooksville is actually in a separate growing region than Streamsong. There's a grey tint to what I assume is the Mach 1, when the temps drop and it starts dormancy. It doesn't effect play at all, but aesthetic sensitivities need to be considered. ::)
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cabot-citrus-farms-architects-new-plans
https://beyondthecontour.com/new-firms-get-their-shot-at-cabot-citrus-farms/ (https://beyondthecontour.com/new-firms-get-their-shot-at-cabot-citrus-farms/)News broke today on the architect’s selection for each golf course. According to Golf Digest (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cabot-citrus-farms-architects-new-plans)‘s Derek Duncan, Kyle Franz will take over Pine Barrens, Keith Rhebb & Riley Johns will tackle Rolling Oaks, and Mike Nuzzo will take on the third property. To our ears, the work sounds extensive, as originally reported on our Instagram, (https://www.instagram.com/p/CYCzolbrRBw/?utm_medium=share_sheet) Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks will likely look a lot different.
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I found the quote that this is “a nice breath of fresh air from the usual Doak and Coore & Crenshaw announcement” kind of ironic, since Drew’s examples of the three firms’ work were gushing about the projects where they had worked for us!
However, it’s nice to see that my scouting report for Ben on the various candidates had an impact.
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I found the quote that this is “a nice breath of fresh air from the usual Doak and Coore & Crenshaw announcement” kind of ironic, since Drew’s examples of the three firms’ work were gushing about the projects where they had worked for us!
However, it’s nice to see that my scouting report for Ben on the various candidates had an impact.
I am guessing that Mr. Dye could have offered a version of both paragraphs should gca.com have existed at the time, but probably would not have chosen to do so. But it is just a guess.
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I think it's unfortunate that they're going to significantly alter both Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks. I'd prefer to see both more or less "restored", but I especially think Pine Barrens should be mostly left alone. It seems strange to make major changes to a very good course designed by a living architect when that architect is not the one making the changes.
Of course we don't know the extent of the changes right now, but moving tees and greens is enough to create essentially a new hole.
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I found the quote that this is “a nice breath of fresh air from the usual Doak and Coore & Crenshaw announcement” kind of ironic, since Drew’s examples of the three firms’ work were gushing about the projects where they had worked for us!
However, it’s nice to see that my scouting report for Ben on the various candidates had an impact.
Anyone who knows me knows I love both your work and Bill's, and I am a big cheerleader for the work you both have completed. But at a certain point, I start wanting to see a new vision for the overall health of the industry and just a fresh perspective. No different than when you started getting your breaks after working for Dye, or Hanse started getting jobs after working for you. I think it's good for the industry IMO
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Anyone who knows me knows I love both your work and Bill's, and I am a big cheerleader for the work you both have completed. But at a certain point, I start wanting to see a new vision for the overall health of the industry and just a fresh perspective. No different than when you started getting your breaks after working for Dye, or Hanse started getting jobs after working for you. I think it's good for the industry IMO
Drew:
I understand that, and I’m happy for other guys to have a shot, which was one reason I passed on this project. I’m just not quite ready to be put out to pasture yet. I’ve only built 40 courses so far in my career. Would you have hoped the industry moved on from Mackenzie or Ross after they’d done 40 designs? Bill Coore is 15 years older than I am, so I think I’m entitled to a few more years, if there are clients who want to hire me.
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Always interesting to see how threads get hijacked here.
Congrats to Mike, Kyle, Keith and Riley.
I'm very pleased with the teams Ben has selected and I'm thrilled he's included me to help. I'm fairly certain Ben received a lot of input from many different sources before he made his choices.
Hopefully future threads can focus on the designers selected and their visions for the work to be performed at Cabot Citrus Farms.
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Congrats to Mike Nuzzo and Don Mahaffey! Also congratulations to Kyle, Keith and Riley what a great combination of talent. Can’t wait to see the product.
Steven Blake
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https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cabot-citrus-farms-architects-new-plans (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cabot-citrus-farms-architects-new-plans)
https://beyondthecontour.com/new-firms-get-their-shot-at-cabot-citrus-farms/ (https://beyondthecontour.com/new-firms-get-their-shot-at-cabot-citrus-farms/)News broke today on the architect’s selection for each golf course. According to Golf Digest (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/cabot-citrus-farms-architects-new-plans)‘s Derek Duncan, Kyle Franz will take over Pine Barrens, Keith Rhebb & Riley Johns will tackle Rolling Oaks, and Mike Nuzzo will take on the third property. To our ears, the work sounds extensive, as originally reported on our Instagram, (https://www.instagram.com/p/CYCzolbrRBw/?utm_medium=share_sheet) Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks will likely look a lot different.
Wow. That is a really bold move. Congrats to Mike Nuzzo and the others. Always loved my day trips to Pine Barrens in the Disney era days. I will hope that The Dixie Cup does an outing/championship at the new resort.
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8) So Ben, with theses choices out of the way, just wondering where is Cabot SW going to be? I can't believe you're not thinking about it for the future... ::)
Congrats to Mike & Don! Safe travels over there on I-10, since I know you're into the ground game!!
I don't know the other guys but sounds like an interesting group has been assembled for the project. We're looking forward to seeing these proposed Dixie Cup venues being presented!
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Hey friends,
I wanted to share a story I did about World Woods and the coming transformation into Cabot Citrus Farms. The piece was published by the Golfer's Journal over the weekend and I think it offers some interesting background on the property. I believe everyone will enjoy reading about the journey World Woods has been on. It certainly made me appreciate what has been there and what's to come! Living only a few hours away, I'm excited for a bright future at Cabot Citrus Farms and the great designers that will soon start working there. Kudos to Ben and his team for a visionary project that will be a great addition to Florida's golf offerings.
See link below( if you aren't a subscriber, just make a quick guest profile to view)
https://www.golfersjournal.com/editorial/back-to-the-future%ef%bf%bc/
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Thanks for the article Jay. It sounds like you had a meaningful experience at WW with Rick Kelso.
I've played both courses at WW twice and would have been happy if the deferred maintenance was taken care of and the property cleaned up. It fit a nice niche of outstanding, affordable golf, and there seems to be enough $$$$$ destination golf already.
I am sure that with proper resources, the architects for the three parts will create an outstanding resort. Let's hope that the timing is better than in the 1990s. Any idea on the re-opening?
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Thank you for sharing this link, Jay. We are fortunate to have a writer of your calibre among our murder of crows, and I look forward to reading this piece.
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The piece was published by the Golfer's Journal over the weekend and I think it offers some interesting background on the property. I believe everyone will enjoy reading about the journey World Woods has been on.
Jay,
That was a really great piece on WW. Back in the Disney and Mountain Lake days, I did a few one day trips but never played Rolling Oaks - mainly because I was such a fan of Pine Barrens. Loved the "clubhouse" and goofy logo for what it was. Played the short course one time in a backed up frost delay.
The new resort sounds equally interesting and I like the positioning of "three up and comers" as architects. Again great writing and the pics were very fun too. Thanks
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Thanks Lou! They are set to close WW at end of May and reopen as Cabot Citrus Farms in 18 months. Looking forward to what comes next!
Thanks for the article Jay. It sounds like you had a meaningful experience at WW with Rick Kelso.
I've played both courses at WW twice and would have been happy if the deferred maintenance was taken care of and the property cleaned up. It fit a nice niche of outstanding, affordable golf, and there seems to be enough $$$$$ destination golf already.
I am sure that with proper resources, the architects for the three parts will create an outstanding resort. Let's hope that the timing is better than in the 1990s. Any idea on the re-opening?
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Jay,
Very nice story. I’m glad you got to know Rick, he’s a great leader at WW. (Soon to be CCF)
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Well written Jay.
Rick is a hero.
Peace
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Fantastic article Jay.
"great golf without the pomp and circumstance"
So true, and the reason my staff and I always made it an annual outing when attending the PGA Show.
More often than not, we never made it to "The Show", extending our stay Brooksville to play The Dunes, El Diablo and/or Brooksville CC, and being unable to overspend our budget at the bowling alley/Holiday Inn in Brooksville, or the fishing lodge in Homosassa Springs.
Whie I completely understand the motivation for buying(and selling) the property, I'm going to miss the Old World Woods.
It was all we ever needed,(great golf,friendly smiles, cold beer,sandwiches) in a really rustic environment, actual low key, at a bare bones price.
It was easy to return every single year.
.
But more importantly....
"without all the pomp and circumstance" which sadly, the upscale fee payer has come to expect and resort owners feel compelled to provide-no matter how well they do it.Which costs $ and somebody has to foot the bill.
Harder(for me) to return to every, single year.
But it will no doubt be an outstanding facility/end result for most with a great site/property and a great team involved.
Congrats to Cabot Development,
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Jeff, excellent post.
What do you figure is the over/under on the increase for green fees in prime time slots? $150...$200?
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Some price points that might be an indication of where they could land.
For resort guests:
Streamsong $249 US
Cabot Links $245 US
That said, in 18 months when Citrus Farms opens, it could be a different market.
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I would agree that the $200-250 would be the likely spot and maybe even more once they start to build accommodations and attract more golf trips. I think Doral charges around $200 for the less highly regarded courses and around $400 for the Blue Monster
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There's a lot of competition for the golfing tourism dollar in the greater Tampa area. The Cabot group would be wise to not price out the locals who have kept WW afloat all these years and become 100% dependent on destination golfers too quickly for its revenue until its well-established, seeing it's not an easy place to get to. It's a haul much the same way Streamsong is, with the difference being the latter has established itself as a premier destination golf resort, whereas Cabot Citrus Farms is hoping to become that. As such, I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the $150 - $200 range to start and escalate from there.
@Jay Revell: Great in-depth piece you did on the property in tandem with the heart-touching profile on Rick Kelso. God bless him and his family for the perseverance shown through the trials and tribulations he's faced - both personally and professionally.
I wish the entire Cabot team much success in its quest to establish Citrus Farms as a premiere golf destination.