Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jason Thurman on September 07, 2021, 11:21:22 PM
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I mean, it is, right?
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No way. Not this late with that view.
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Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?
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Lawsonia is $75.00 and has about the most chill vibe about it as any course Ive ever played.
Beers are $2.50 there and hot dogs are $3.00.
It is an orginal Langford/Moreau course from the 1930's while AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.
Reports I keep hearing about ABS say it's a 5+ hour round and $160+ (still not bad $ I guess.)
I'll take Lawsonia in the am and then an easy 75 minute drive from there to Sand Valley for a PM round.
We played Lawsonia last in mid-June, 2020 on a Sunday am at 9:30. Played in 3:45 and it was all locals there.
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Lawsonia is all locals for a reason. I found no redeeming qualities in the course or amenities worthy of a road trip to get there. If Lawsonia could switch sister courses with ABS I'm sure I would feel differently.
I've been told that Lawsonia no longer pushes their religious views on visitors so that is a good thing.
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Lawsonia Links is $120 to play this weekend. I do pray to my God that they don't comp raters.
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Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?
Note that I'm just asking a question because I'm interested in hearing thoughtful answers. It's not rhetorical, and I'm not making some sort of declaration by asking.
Ian, Lawsonia is my favorite place in the world of golf for reasons like the ones you cite. I love good cheap beer. It's also one of my favorite courses, and I'm interested in the architectural reasons for its superiority more than a discussion of its concessions. If we're going the latter route, I should mention that the cherry bbq chips I got at Arcadia South were the best chips I've ever tasted.
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Lawsonia is all locals for a reason. I found no redeeming qualities in the course or amenities worthy of a road trip to get there. If Lawsonia could switch sister courses with ABS I'm sure I would feel differently.
I've been told that Lawsonia no longer pushes their religious views on visitors so that is a good thing.
Horses for courses I guess.
But a comment like the one above kinda disqualifies you from being taken seriously on most GCA matters... ;D
A guy I was with who has a VERY high golf IQ (and belongs to 4 "top 100" courses) stated that if Lawsonia was on Long Island (with same topography) and had a $2M+ maintenence budget, it would be top 50 in the world.
Maintenance budget there is around $600K we heard.
But, it does NOT have bridges under which trolls may lurk or reside...;-)
Jason, I hear you. I played ABN but not ABS. Was one and done for me but I would do ABS if in the area again and had a day to kill...;-)
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No one cares about how great a course would be if it were at a different location. I am a member and own a home on an original L&M course. I am fully aware of their design philosophy and find it repetitive and boring. I think the market for their work has given an accurate indication of the quality. Reminds me of the Foulis brothers.
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Give it some time to discover whether it’s puppy love, or the real thing….was it your first date?
I think first dates are different these days, Joe -- whether with people or with golf courses. If we discounted puppy love and demanded the real thing, maybe all the Top 100 lists would be turned upside down, or at least all mixed up!
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I just don't understand how somebody can play Lawsonia Links and say it has no redeeming qualities.
I personally think the two hole combo of #6 and #7 is one of the best in the world and I don't think I've played a golf course that has a better set of green complexes.
To each his own but perhaps you caught it on a bad day? When it plays fast and firm it's one of the most fun courses to play.
Every hole "feels" like a birdie hole yet it protects par extremely well due to the creativity of the greens.
There is great variety, its beautiful, its fun. I just don't understand having such extreme criticism for it.
For the money it may be the best course in the midwest and money aside its well deserving of its praise and place in the top 100 IMO.
Back to the original post... I really enjoyed Arcadia South and think it is quite similar to Lawsonia. It's just not as memorable to me and doesn't have the "all world" holes like Lawsonia. (6,7,13 on Lawsonia)
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I mean, it is, right?
Yes it is. I liked AS better than I thought I would but it would be at least 7-3 LL for me, luckily its not that far out of the way for me on my way to Madison or Chicago.
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Cheap hyped up GCA courses that I have played. Rustic, Wild Horse and Lawsonia. Lawsonia is the most expensive. Can't wait to see Rustic again.
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Back to the original post... I really enjoyed Arcadia South and think it is quite similar to Lawsonia. It's just not as memorable to me and doesn't have the "all world" holes like Lawsonia. (6,7,13 on Lawsonia)
This point resonates to me, but I do wonder if we're going to consider holes at South to be All World sooner or later. 9 is tremendous, for one. I think there are other contenders.
It's hard for me to be definitive about them because the course just has so much going on. The courses have similar land, aesthetics, and character in some ways, but the challenges at Lawsonia feel a little more conventional to me. It doesn't take too many plays or too much thought to generally understand the central challenge of 6, 7, 10, and 13 at Lawsonia, all of which I consider truly exceptional holes. But less complex to take in than, say, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 15, 17, and 18 at the South, all of which seem potentially pretty exceptional to me after a single play.
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There are only a handful of courses I finish and can’t wait to get back to the first tee again.
Lawsonia is certainly one of those courses.
Ken
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AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.
Kind of like Old Mac and the new Lido course?
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AB South is a modern gimic replica course, albeit (from what I have heard) very well done.
Kind of like Old Mac and the new Lido course?
Right?
Also, whereas Old Mac and the Lido really are modern replica courses, Arcadia South has a style that mirrors CGC's shaping but a totally original set of holes. If it's a modern gimmick replica course because it looks sorta like one other course, then I think that means every course is a modern gimmick replica. I mean, Pac Dunes is a total County Down knockoff and even Lawsonia is just a lesser NGLA without the ocean.
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Why does one have to be better than the other? What is the purpose of this thread?
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Ron, as a guy who's played quite a lot of heralded public courses around the Midwest, it's just really hard to play Arcadia South and not see shades of Lawsonia. They present very similarly in terms of shaping, character of property, and strategic challenge.
I'm not really one to get hung up in "Which course is better?" discussions. I know which of the two I prefer, and recognize that my opinion may change for any reason at any time. But I think they're interesting to discuss together. One is well known. The other is new and, I think, pretty overlooked relative to its quality. And despite the similarities, they're also markedly different. I hoped the topic would stimulate some discussion on that front and shine a light on some of the preferences that inform different takes.
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To each his own but perhaps you caught it on a bad day?
Seems like every day is a bad day for JK. A stronger source of negativity is unbeknownst to me. :'(
Cheers
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If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.
For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.
John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well. They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.
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If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.
Yes! It's a lot to take in. And maybe it's a little too much in spots. In hindsight, I'd have been a lot more selective about the club I chose off the tee and played for position more often. It's almost a "target links" with landing areas defined by bunkers on practically every par 4/5. But it's really cool to think how the ideal position would change with different pins, and it's augmented by the way the squared off putting surfaces create so many different sharply angled pin positions that, in turn, influence the proper target from the tee. It's a remarkably cerebral chess match and the course's unrelenting firmness really takes it up another notch on that front.
For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.
So, in fairness, I think Arcadia South has an awesome set of greens all its own. But I do think Lawsonia has the better set, because of all the microcontours. I keep thinking about the first holes. It seems so obvious that Arcadia South has the better opener, because it's an awesome hole and Lawsonia has that awkwardly undefined tee shot. And the green at Arcadia South is incredible - huge with enormous slopes. But Lawsonia's is equally interesting on the approach with the way that it feeds balls to the left, but so much harder to putt once you're on it because even though it's smaller and doesn't have the same boldness of shaping (within the surface itself...), it's also full of microundulations that make even 3 footers really tough.
I do think the topography of the courses is very similar though. I'll grant that Lawsonia has a little bit more drama, but I wouldn't call it "much more." Although certain transcendent holes at Lawsonia like 6 and 13 are really bolstered by their topography and I'm not sure Arcadia South has anything that quite matches them. Overall, though, I found the topography of the courses really similar.
John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well. They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.
Agreed again here. But we should put respect on greens like 2 and 9 at Arcadia South too. There are others that I think might be world-class contenders. At risk of contradicting The Fried Egg, I also thought 17 was pretty exceptional.
But there's a consistent excellence to the greens at Lawsonia that Arcadia South might not quite match (?). It's sorta funny - Lawsonia is so much more straightforward tee-to-green, and that's exactly what makes it such a fabulous example of strategic architecture. The short answer to the question "How do I play Lawsonia strategically?" is "put your ball near the hazards, and you'll enjoy better angles into the greens." Whereas the strategy at Arcadia South will vary daily depending on pin position and wind and tees you're playing and it's just a lot more complicated tee-to-green. But once you're on the green, the surfaces at South are challenging but usually a little more straightforward. You might have a 150 ft putt, but it's unlikely you'll be reading more that one or two primary slopes while a 20 footer at Lawsonia might change direction 3+ times as it traverses a primary ridge along with a couple secondary ones.
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If you wanted to make the case for Arcadia, you’d say it’s more challenging and more complex and in prime condition.
For Lawsonia, you’d say the topography is much more dramatic and it’s got an awesome set of greens.
John, I don’t know why but it sounds like you do not remember Lawsonia’s greens very well. They are much more varied than the Rayner templates, and there are a few (5, 6, 12) that belong in a sculpture museum.
On any course I only remember what I felt. What I saw comes up blank.
Can’t believe I’ve been spelling Rayner wrong all these years. Thanks!!!
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Len Rayner was a golf architect, but he didn’t build that many templates, at least not famous ones. Windham Country Club in the Catskills has 9 holes by Rayner, but I don’t remember any templates. He did quite a bit of work in upstate New York. Wolfert’s Roost is another Len Rayner design. What’s interesting about Wolfert’s Roost is that Charles Banks actually bid on the Wolfert’s Roost job, but lost the bid to Len Rayner.
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Why does one have to be better than the other? What is the purpose of this thread?
exactly
how stupid
folks just like to be unhappy in the name of "study"
rank the Bandon courses, and why? LOL
as if it matters to someone who plays golf
life is good, so much golf so little time
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1. I know that I posted years back about Let's work harder on thread titles. I would amend that to if they are going to be debates or controversies. I think that my YOK series was oddly-titled, but YOK didn't make anyone dispute the thread title, once it was amended to include the name of the course. I would title this thread Compare/Contrast AS and LOL: two stellar midwest courses from different centuries or something like that.
2. Lawsonia 5 Green
(http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screenshot-35.png)
3. Lawsonia 6 Green
(http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screenshot-31.png)
(http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Screenshot-32.png)
4. Lawsonia 12 Green
Tough one to shoot. I don't have anything good from it.
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I mean, it is, right?
I think you are right Jason, but it's not a cake walk. Lawsonia probably just pips the terrain and greens argument. Where Lawsonia wins hands down is the visuals. Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part of the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property. Mind you, I would say the bunkering is the less than strong aspect of Lawsonia. It's not the same as AS as the bunkering is more balanced, but the bunkering around the greens is a bit repetitive.
Without question I prefer Lawsonia, but have to admit AS is interesting and in places highly entertaining.
Ciao
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Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part if the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property.
My formulation of this when people have asked me what I thought of Arcadia South was that 'it feels like it was designed by a computer.' Now maybe I'll start saying that it feels like it was designed by ChatGPT.
It's the repetitiveness of the fairway bunkering. Most holes have staggered fairway bunkers, often with another one somewhere in the middle of the fairway. The scheme certainly isn't the same every time, but it always feels like variations on one idea. And usually, you're driving between the bunkers rather than diagonally over them. The 9th stands out because it's one of the only holes where the bunkers clearly are on a diagonal. It would be nice if there were greater variety in the placement and the type of hazards. A few English-style odd mounds and depressions would help Arcadia a lot.
I don't think that the terrain is helping Arcadia too much either. It's very tame, which is another element making the holes feel similar to each other. It's also probably part of the reason why they used so many bunkers in the first place. I agree with most everyone else that the greens are excellent, but in a few visits, the place has always left me feeling a bit cold.
Which is emphatically not the case for Lawsonia. It's helped greatly by much better terrain. And the course uses it to create such great variety, from blindness on the second, to the hill you have to carry to sling your ball forward on the fifth, to the tough carry with the second on 13. Same thing with the bunkers; sometimes there are diagonal carries (6, 13), sometimes they're off to one side or the other (11, 18), sometimes you have to run the gauntlet between them (9, 17). It just feels to me like there's a lot more variety from tee to green. And as Tom mentioned, some of those greens belong in a museum.
Arcadia South is very good, maybe one of the five best public courses in Michigan. But Lawsonia is outstanding; it'd easily be the best public course in Michigan. And I think it's the best in Wisconsin, which is even stronger.
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First off, I played (and fully mapped (https://golfcourse.wiki/course/lawsonia_links-green_lake)) Lawsonia Links, but not Arcadia, so I can't speak to that, but I will bring what I can to this discussion.
3. Lawsonia 6 Green
Here is the sixth (http://), and I must say, the green is like something I've never played before and I loved it.
The seventh (https://golfcourse.wiki/course/lawsonia_links-green_lake/holes/7) uses the land in a way that shocks players on their first time playing, even if it's not the most amazing hole on the course, it's memorable without some complex nuance, which I think needs to happen on a course. The opposite, of the seventh is the tenth (https://cookiejargolf.com/128-eclectic-18-andy-johnson/) (discussion at 54:38), which is all nuance, and as a half-par hole, forces players to makes some decisions they might not want to.
At risk of contradicting The Fried Egg
I don't think the influence of Andy Johnson here can be overstated. I'm a complete philistine and don't belong on this forum, but the first time I'd even heard of Lawsonia was when Andy and EAL played in late 2018 (https://youtu.be/6SZZNQN-1ik). In this film Andy cannot stop talking about the value of the course, and when you look back at that time, the value is incredible. Using the Way Back Machine, you can see the type of value being offered around that time (https://web.archive.org/web/20180824094121/http://golfgreenlake.com/golf_green_lake_005.htm). From the GolfGreenLake.com specials from August 2018:
For only $300 per couple ($150 per person plus tax) - this package includes:
4 -18 HOLE PASSES - for either the Links or Woodlands courses - includes cart. (2 passes each player)
1 NIGHTS LODGING FOR 2 - at the Acorn Ridge Motel
$40 DINNER CREDIT for 2 - at Langford's Pub, Norton's or Harbor Lights
Use of the Lawsonia Driving Range and Practice Facility
I think all of us could agree that this price, just 5 years ago, is an absurd value.
Lawsonia is trivially worth that price, and likely double it. Currently, however, this price would barely cover the cheapest night's stay and a single round of golf, walking. That isn't to say that Lawsonia isn't worth the higher prices, lord knows I enjoyed my time there and plan to return, but the ranting and raving we heard from Andy has become a more muted, respect for earth moving and history (Club TFE profile (https://thefriedegg.com/course-profile-lawsonia-golf-course-links/)).
I think this is why I people might be shocked when they book and play Lawsonia at today's prices, and may be the reason for this post. Andy Johnson's fully justified love of this course has brought so much attention to it, that the value proposition he was so impressed by has diminished as their stature was raised.
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In response to Matt above...
I agree that Lawsonia used to be an incredibly good deal. ~15 years ago we used to drive up there from Chicago in the fall on Banker Holidays and play all day with a cart, with no one else on the course, for something like $65. Pretty surreal, even if the condition of the course was spotty back then.
To be fair to Lawsonia, I did check their rates for a tee time this summer and it clocked in at $125 in prime time. Considering the quality of the course and the investment they've put into it AND that it's a top 75 course in the country according to GOLF...$125 doesn't seem that unreasonable? It has to be less than half of one round at Sand Valley or Kohler, right?
Also, I like to think we put Lawsonia on the map when we hosted the 2011 Midwest Mashie there... ;) ;) ;)
Either way, looking forward to getting back in about 10 days for The Fried Egg's event there!
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I don't think $125 is unreasonable at all, especially when you're throwing in the more than reasonable (and genuinely delicious) food and drink prices, and the cheap motels nearby. I hope I was clear in the last post that I'm a Lawsonia fan.
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Arcadia South almost seems like an endless blend of one hole spread out over a few hundred acres. Part if the problem is the fairway bunkering. It strikes me as overly technical. It leans too far toward plotting around the property.
My formulation of this when people have asked me what I thought of Arcadia South was that 'it feels like it was designed by a computer.' Now maybe I'll start saying that it feels like it was designed by ChatGPT.
It's the repetitiveness of the fairway bunkering. Most holes have staggered fairway bunkers, often with another one somewhere in the middle of the fairway. The scheme certainly isn't the same every time, but it always feels like variations on one idea. And usually, you're driving between the bunkers rather than diagonally over them. The 9th stands out because it's one of the only holes where the bunkers clearly are on a diagonal. It would be nice if there were greater variety in the placement and the type of hazards. A few English-style odd mounds and depressions would help Arcadia a lot.
I don't think that the terrain is helping Arcadia too much either. It's very tame, which is another element making the holes feel similar to each other. It's also probably part of the reason why they used so many bunkers in the first place. I agree with most everyone else that the greens are excellent, but in a few visits, the place has always left me feeling a bit cold.
Which is emphatically not the case for Lawsonia. It's helped greatly by much better terrain. And the course uses it to create such great variety, from blindness on the second, to the hill you have to carry to sling your ball forward on the fifth, to the tough carry with the second on 13. Same thing with the bunkers; sometimes there are diagonal carries (6, 13), sometimes they're off to one side or the other (11, 18), sometimes you have to run the gauntlet between them (9, 17). It just feels to me like there's a lot more variety from tee to green. And as Tom mentioned, some of those greens belong in a museum.
Arcadia South is very good, maybe one of the five best public courses in Michigan. But Lawsonia is outstanding; it'd easily be the best public course in Michigan. And I think it's the best in Wisconsin, which is even stronger.
I definitely agree RE Arcadia South. The flatness of the terrain lends itself to some mounds and hollows. I also think a long term tree planting scheme is in order. I also agree RE fairway bunkering at Lawsonia.
While I don't share quite the same level of enthusiasm RE Lawsonia as many on this site do, I have a lot of time for the place despite a feeling in the back of my head that the course lacks charm. The same can't be said for the area or the bar, no small reasons why I like Lawsonia.
Ciao