Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Wade Whitehead on September 02, 2021, 07:08:21 AM
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Anyone know anything about Pete Dye's design at White Oak Plantation, said to be his last?
WW
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I don't know anything about the White Oak course, but I just wanted to say that I think it's borderline ghoulish for a course to sell itself as any architect's "final design". And with many architects, there are usually two or three courses vying for the honor. I know there's also a course in Indianapolis claiming to be Pete's last.
In most cases, an architect's last course is going to be one where he was dealing with illness and maybe didn't spend as much time or have as much energy to devote to its design.
The only architect I can think of whose "last course" is considered among his best is MacKenzie, if you consider Augusta National to be his last course, and not Ohio State which was built from his plans a couple of years after he passed.
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TD,
Do you mean The Scarlet or The Grey?
Yes it is ghoulish, but that's marketing.
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Years ago, I failed to get a commission, and the reason I was given was that they were hoping to get RTJ's last course.
What's interesting for us gca buffs is, as TD alludes, determining what was the last course an aging architect had a major influence on. Examples may include RTJ and the Alabama Golf Trail, where Roger Rulewhich is widely known to have done the work, and who knows about Pete, who had younger associates or sons building at least some of the courses with his name on it.
In other words, I would be interested in the last course where he moved to live on site to see if I could spot the differences. For that matter, I think I can spot differences in Ross courses built by his Chicago office over his NC one. Others would know better, but was there a Ross course other than Jeffersonville NC that might have been his last?
On the other hand, in this environment, with most gca offices downsizing tremendously over the last 10 years, it may very well be that for most of us, approaching, at or just past retirement age, some of our last courses had more of our own personal touch, not less.
Overall, a pretty uncomfortable discussion for a 66 year old gca, LOL.
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TD,
Do you mean The Scarlet or The Grey?
Yes it is ghoulish, but that's marketing.
Steve:
I believe both courses were built in 1936.
After he died, MacKenzie's estate applied to the university for payment for the plans. There is some speculation that the greens plans were not, in fact, all complete when he passed away, and they were finished by someone else, in order to receive payment.
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Jeff: I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a job because the customer hopes it's my last one. >:(
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After he died, MacKenzie's estate applied to the university for payment for the plans. There is some speculation that the greens plans were not, in fact, all complete when he passed away, and they were finished by someone else, in order to receive payment.
At the risk of sounding more ghoulish, maybe golf course architects could be like rap artists, and leave a bunch of unfinished routings, sketches, and master plans. You could end up with more posthumous courses than ones built while living. Like the Tupac of GCA!
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At the risk of sounding more ghoulish, maybe golf course architects could be like rap artists, and leave a bunch of unfinished routings, sketches, and master plans. You could end up with more posthumous courses than ones built while living. Like the Tupac of GCA!
We all have tons of those, for projects that we were paid to do plans for, but never happened due to finances / permits / etc.
I printed just a small sampling of mine in Getting to 18.
But, it costs a lot more to produce a posthumous golf course design than it costs to produce a recording.
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A couple years ago, this Maryland course was being called his last. I still haven't played there.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-links-at-perry-cabin-pete-dyes-inspiring-final-design
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Jeff - I thought the Bethlehem Steel Club, now known as Steel Club fka Silver Creek, was the last Ross course. Or at least the last he traveled to oversee.
Years ago, I failed to get a commission, and the reason I was given was that they were hoping to get RTJ's last course.
What's interesting for us gca buffs is, as TD alludes, determining what was the last course an aging architect had a major influence on. Examples may include RTJ and the Alabama Golf Trail, where Roger Rulewhich is widely known to have done the work, and who knows about Pete, who had younger associates or sons building at least some of the courses with his name on it.
In other words, I would be interested in the last course where he moved to live on site to see if I could spot the differences. For that matter, I think I can spot differences in Ross courses built by his Chicago office over his NC one. Others would know better, but was there a Ross course other than Jeffersonville NC that might have been his last?
On the other hand, in this environment, with most gca offices downsizing tremendously over the last 10 years, it may very well be that for most of us, approaching, at or just past retirement age, some of our last courses had more of our own personal touch, not less.
Overall, a pretty uncomfortable discussion for a 66 year old gca, LOL.
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Jeff - I thought the Bethlehem Steel Club, now known as Steel Club fka Silver Creek, was the last Ross course. Or at least the last he traveled to oversee.
And I thought Raleigh CC advertised themselves as Ross's last course.
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Just proving the point that it would be nearly impossible to determine what the last course is, at least for a busy architect. I had always heard Raleigh was his last, as well.
If the gca in question died during construction, around here, we might start debating which was his last nine holes, or maybe last hole period.
The Royal Club in Minnesota, a /Annika (front nine, with tech support from Palmer Design) and back nine Palmer design touts themselves as Arnie's last course. On the par 3 14th (?) as Arnie's last hole, they claim he stood on the originally built hole and directed some specific changes, making it Arnie's last hole design.
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Jeff - I thought the Bethlehem Steel Club, now known as Steel Club fka Silver Creek, was the last Ross course. Or at least the last he traveled to oversee.
And I thought Raleigh CC advertised themselves as Ross's last course.
I don’t have anything to back this up, but I have been told that the New Smyrna Beach course in Florida was Ross’s last
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I think Bill really hits the nail on the head, this does happen a lot in other niches like Hollywood, (as well as the music industry) for example Heath Ledger and Chadwick Boseman.
I also suspect, (but don't really know), that GCA careers are probably a bit like Hollywood careers where most actors have a decent short run for a few years before they fade away and end up in Sitcoms or Infomercials. Not many have long prolonged careers like a Jack Nicholson or Denzel Washington.
So I guess this begs the question: Who is the Tom Cruise of GCA?
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A couple years ago, this Maryland course was being called his last. I still haven't played there.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-links-at-perry-cabin-pete-dyes-inspiring-final-design (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-links-at-perry-cabin-pete-dyes-inspiring-final-design)
Photos:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/LinksPerryCabin/index.html
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Jeff - I thought the Bethlehem Steel Club, now known as Steel Club fka Silver Creek, was the last Ross course. Or at least the last he traveled to oversee.
WAIT WHAT?!?!?!?!
How have I never heard of this place?!?! Have I been living under a rock?
Granted I'm not a PA guy but I did live in W PA for a while, and my in-laws are from Eastern PA. And working in the steel industry most of my career, how have I not heard of this place??? I have played all the Saucon Valley courses knowing of their ties to Bethlehem Steel, but I did not know there was another club with Bethlehem Steel ties. Anyone know how private is this place? Will a well written letter, email, or call potentially get me on here? Is there a lot of Ross left? Regardless probably "have" to play it since it has the word Steel in its name.
I would love to hear more about this without hijacking the original thread.
Those of you who have been around here since the beginning probably remember my original signature on here...
Daryl Boe
Steel Salesman, Thrill Seeker!
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Anyone know anything about Pete Dye's design at White Oak Plantation, said to be his last?
WW
I believe the official name is now "The Dye Course at White Oak"
I played it back in 2004 (I believe) when it was a 9 hole course called White Oak Plantation designed by Arnold Palmer I think.
It was a fun and unique 9 hole course, in an unusual setting, with a unique ownership situation as I recall. I remember them talking about wanting to do a 18 hole course eventually and I just recently learned that they accomplished that goal with Pete Dye before his passing. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing the new version and seeing what they accomplished.
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I believe The Links at Perry Cabin also advertises as Dye's last course.....
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Anyone know anything about Pete Dye's design at White Oak Plantation, said to be his last?
WW
I believe the official name is now "The Dye Course at White Oak"
I played it back in 2004 (I believe) when it was a 9 hole course called White Oak Plantation designed by Arnold Palmer I think.
It was a fun and unique 9 hole course, in an unusual setting, with a unique ownership situation as I recall. I remember them talking about wanting to do a 18 hole course eventually and I just recently learned that they accomplished that goal with Pete Dye before his passing. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing the new version and seeing what they accomplished.
The original 9 holer (think it was originally 10 holes) still exists. The Dye Course is 18 new holes immediately west of it.
Keith.
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Anyone know anything about Pete Dye's design at White Oak Plantation, said to be his last?
WW
I believe the official name is now "The Dye Course at White Oak"
I played it back in 2004 (I believe) when it was a 9 hole course called White Oak Plantation designed by Arnold Palmer I think.
It was a fun and unique 9 hole course, in an unusual setting, with a unique ownership situation as I recall. I remember them talking about wanting to do a 18 hole course eventually and I just recently learned that they accomplished that goal with Pete Dye before his passing. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing the new version and seeing what they accomplished.
I'm all confused now. There was a White Oak development near Tryon, NC that had an Arnold Palmer course. 9 holes were built, but it never formally opened. The other 9 was cleared at least. The development failed, the course no longer exists. New developers shifted the focus. It became the steeplechase (?) course for an equestrian center.
Where is the White Oak Plantation Pete Dye course?
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Anyone know anything about Pete Dye's design at White Oak Plantation, said to be his last?
WW
I believe the official name is now "The Dye Course at White Oak"
I played it back in 2004 (I believe) when it was a 9 hole course called White Oak Plantation designed by Arnold Palmer I think.
It was a fun and unique 9 hole course, in an unusual setting, with a unique ownership situation as I recall. I remember them talking about wanting to do a 18 hole course eventually and I just recently learned that they accomplished that goal with Pete Dye before his passing. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing the new version and seeing what they accomplished.
I'm all confused now. There was a White Oak development near Tryon, NC that had an Arnold Palmer course. 9 holes were built, but it never formally opened. The other 9 was cleared at least. The development failed, the course no longer exists. New developers shifted the focus. It became the steeplechase (?) course for an equestrian center.
Where is the White Oak Plantation Pete Dye course?
Bruce, you are correct about the NLE White Oak Plantation in Tryon, NC. I had forgotten it was Palmer's group that did the 9 hole course, but I think you are right. I remember that Padraig Harrington's name and face were plastered all over everything to do with that club (he was a pretty hot commodity at the time) and I was thinking he might have helped with the design, but the more I think about it I think you might be right. I think Padraig was building a house, and must have been brought on as an investor or just a figurehead to help the club's image. But sadly as you said, it no longer exists from what i have heard. Living close by I have often thought about driving back in there again to see if the course is still distinguishable from the native landscape.
The Dye Course at White Oak is in remote Yulee, FL at the White Oak Conservatory.
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I believe The Links at Perry Cabin also advertises as Dye's last course.....
I thought so too, but I think they've stopped doing so.
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I think Bill really hits the nail on the head, this does happen a lot in other niches like Hollywood, (as well as the music industry) for example Heath Ledger and Chadwick Boseman.
I also suspect, (but don't really know), that GCA careers are probably a bit like Hollywood careers where most actors have a decent short run for a few years before they fade away and end up in Sitcoms or Infomercials. Not many have long prolonged careers like a Jack Nicholson or Denzel Washington.
So I guess this begs the question: Who is the Tom Cruise of GCA?
Following this logic - it would be interesting to speculate on what an Architect's last good course was.
Before they .......................... Jumped the Shark !
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Jeff - I thought the Bethlehem Steel Club, now known as Steel Club fka Silver Creek, was the last Ross course. Or at least the last he traveled to oversee.
And I thought Raleigh CC advertised themselves as Ross's last course.
They do. I don't think they push it as much as they used to, but they still mention being Ross' last design in several places.
Of course, after their recent renovation, it doesn't look that much like a Ross course -- mainly because of the bunker design.
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Tryon NC is now the location of a 5* equestrian retreat, if this is the same land it wouldn’t make much grounds for golf. I do remember P Harrington having an interest / ownership in Western NC real estate.
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I am not positive but I think this might be a google earth image of the course.
The course on the right might be the old 9 hole course.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/q186/tomwilliamsen/8BDDEE41-76A8-4DFD-B4F8-AF88143EA6B2_1_105_c.jpeg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tomwilliamsen/p/24875825-16eb-4cae-9a48-357cfda08ae2)
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The original 9 hole course was designed by Steve Melnyk. I played it about six years ago and enjoyed the course. It was a bit tight in spots with the most notable feature being a cascading waterfall behind the 8th green.
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A litle more detail about this course coming out.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/dye-course-white-oak-florida
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Congratulations to White Oak for this honor. Both my preliminary routing as well the grading and drainage drawing are posted on my web site: timliddy.com (http://timliddy.com)
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So is this basically a tribute course?
Did Dye have a hand in the routing and if so, what does that mean on a dead flat site?
My question is, should Dye even get attribution for this course?
Some of the recent topics on this site are about new and creative ideas in golf development and architecture and this falls into the category of retro/throw-back trends, like The Lido. This is like recreating a vintage 1970s Dye Lowcountry course.
Nearly 20 years ago, I interviewed Tom Doak and he said when he got started in the business in the early 80s the predominant themes of golf course architecture/development was [paraphrasing/trying to remember exactly] "to hire Pete Dye on a flat site and have him push around a bunch of dirt." I don't recall if he was being specific to the southeast Lowcountry but that's how I remember interpreting it.
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Congratulations to White Oak for this honor. Both my preliminary routing as well the grading and drainage drawing are posted on my web site: timliddy.com (http://timliddy.com)
I played the course in Nov 2021. I loved it. The Paspalum grass makes for some of the best fairways I’ve ever played. It is tight, firm, and yet the ball seems to sit up. The greens have a lot of movement and at 76 years old I could feed the ball into the green. There is a lot of water but it is not intrusive.
Tim, the routing is terrific for the site and is essentially the one you did.
I would not call it a tribute course.
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Allan MacCurrach is the most recent guest on Derek Duncan's Feed the Ball podcast (see below for link), and they spend a lot of time discussing White Oak and Mr. Dye's involvement, starting with the early plans in 2013 until he was no longer able to participate due to his illness. It sounds as though Mrs. Dye remained active despite her husband's declining health.
Tom Weber is MacCurrach's project manager for us at Old Barnwell, and he mentioned White Oak to me a few weeks back (I had not heard of it until then). I gather that he was Allan's right hand man in the dirt during its construction, and Allan says as much in the podcast. Tom likened their work there to a team of chefs who create the best dish of their culinary career, but one that nobody other than the restaurant owner gets to taste. I hope more folks get the chance to view and play White Oak in the years ahead.
I do wonder why Golf Digest was willing to put its Best New Private Course stamp on a place 99.99999% of its readers will never get to see or play.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-82-allan-maccurrach/id1278405987?i=1000596369758
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The course looks very nicely tied into the Lowcountry-like scenery, which makes it all the more perplexing why this island green par 3 not mentioned in the article and absent from Tim Liddy's posted routing was thrown into the course. It doesn't look like it fits at all. I wonder whether it was the architect, builder or client who determined it should be included.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yGPJd5D/Screen-Shot-2023-01-28-at-4-19-39-PM.png)