Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bruce Katona on April 17, 2021, 02:53:00 PM
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I'm thinking the ball was oscillating, thus he waited. The flip side could have been hitting a ball in play while moving - potentially a 2 stroke penalty.
https://twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1383461508772814850
PS: Did any one notice last week at The Masters, after Thursday's call in 2 stroke penalty of A. Ancer for touching the sand in the bunker (he obviously didn't feel the minute contact) the CBS & TMOTM no longer zoomed in on any lie in the sand; for fear of additional virtual "rules mavens" calling in for video review?
TMOTM do not care for the great unwashed messing with their annual event.
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There has to be a time limit in such a situation. Historically, waits of more than an hour happened in tournaments and matches. How would one feel if they were in the following group. You would think a professional in a sport would know the rules.
I commented about the lack of sand close-ups, especially noting the champion in the greenside bunker on 18.
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You get a few seconds to react, the reasonable amount of time to get to the hole and then 10 seconds. Timed from when he got the hole, he waited 54 seconds. The penalty is just the same as if he had done the right thing and tapped it in, one stroke.
If the player tries to say the ball is still moving, the rule says that it is considered to be at rest after 10 seconds so he wouldn’t be penalized for playing a “moving” ball.
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I thought everyone knew about the ten second rule.
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I thought everyone knew about the ten second rule.
Me too. But I got similar posts on my forum, and one member even said the Rules Official had taken it upon himself to “modify” the rule.
I believe David Staebler calls it one of the “legal fictions” in golf: if a ball is overhanging the lip, after the time is up, it’s “at rest” even if it’s wobbling a bit, etc.
Si Woo would not have been penalized for tapping it in.
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Add Matt Kuchar to the incredible list.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/si-woo-kim-s-birdie-negated-after-ball-takes-over-a-minute-to-fall-matt-kuchar-can-t-believe-it/ar-BB1fLhNp?ocid=msedgntp
I can see how Eric's forum member got there. Maybe the rule was modified because of COVID-19 ;) . Ten seconds is still my fallback position on good food dropped.
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Add Matt Kuchar to the incredible list.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/si-woo-kim-s-birdie-negated-after-ball-takes-over-a-minute-to-fall-matt-kuchar-can-t-believe-it/ar-BB1fLhNp?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/si-woo-kim-s-birdie-negated-after-ball-takes-over-a-minute-to-fall-matt-kuchar-can-t-believe-it/ar-BB1fLhNp?ocid=msedgntp)
I can see how Eric's forum member got there. Maybe the rule was modified because of COVID-19 ;) . Ten seconds is still my fallback position on good food dropped.
I saw the video and the Rules Official said something like “in this situation the rules are modified” (meaning you can’t hit a moving ball, maybe in water he’d say the same thing), he didn’t say he was modifying them.
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What this incident shows is the poor knowledge of the rules of golf amongst a significant number of touring professionals.
To spend hours practicing to get a fraction of a shot better but not willing to spend a little time getting to know the rules is a poor position to take. Even if the player doesn't want to go to a rules school, send their caddy instead. How difficult can that be?
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Add Matt Kuchar to the incredible list.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/si-woo-kim-s-birdie-negated-after-ball-takes-over-a-minute-to-fall-matt-kuchar-can-t-believe-it/ar-BB1fLhNp?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/si-woo-kim-s-birdie-negated-after-ball-takes-over-a-minute-to-fall-matt-kuchar-can-t-believe-it/ar-BB1fLhNp?ocid=msedgntp)
I can see how Eric's forum member got there. Maybe the rule was modified because of COVID-19 ;) . Ten seconds is still my fallback position on good food dropped.
I saw the video and the Rules Official said something like “in this situation the rules are modified” (meaning you can’t hit a moving ball, maybe in water he’d say the same thing), he didn’t say he was modifying them.
I agree, but can see how someone might understand incorrectly.
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
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What this incident shows is the poor knowledge of the rules of golf amongst a significant number of touring professionals.
To spend hours practicing to get a fraction of a shot better but not willing to spend a little time getting to know the rules is a poor position to take. Even if the player doesn't want to go to a rules school, send their caddy instead. How difficult can that be?
Yea its interesting indeed how these incidents keep happening again and again and again, yet virtually every other sport already solved these problems....decades ago.
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
Huh?
As a rules official I carried a watch and stopwatch for 25+ years. It is standard equipment.
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
One-Mississippi, two-Mississippi ... Ten-Mississippi.
It ain’t that hard.
Besides, the penalty for this is just the same as if you tap the ball in, so just tap it in after you think you’ve passed 10
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
Huh?
As a rules official I carried a watch and stopwatch for 25+ years. It is standard equipment.
Pete:
I'm talking about recreational play.
Players just guess when it comes to the time limits.
Not a problem for me, but it's an unenforceable rule if no one is actually timing.
WW
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With a ball hanging over the edge, are you permitted to use your body to shade the ball while you count to ten?
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With a ball hanging over the edge, are you permitted to use your body to shade the ball while you count to ten?
Yes, but it won’t do any good. No evidence that it could cause the ball to fall in.
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
Huh?
As a rules official I carried a watch and stopwatch for 25+ years. It is standard equipment.
Pete:
I'm talking about recreational play.
Players just guess when it comes to the time limits.
Not a problem for me, but it's an unenforceable rule if no one is actually timing.
WW
I have my cell phone in my back pocket in recreational play. I have the countdown timer set on 3 minutes and start it when I’m searching. In recreational play that is probably a rule that is nowhere near the top of rules that are broken.
As for the ball over hanging the hole, I just count it. If your off by a second or two only a rules nazi would penalize you for it. Or the assholes you called our hotline trying to penalize Justin Thomas at the PGA a few years ago. But that was because they had bet on someone else as one admitted.
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What this incident shows is the poor knowledge of the rules of golf amongst a significant number of touring professionals.
To spend hours practicing to get a fraction of a shot better but not willing to spend a little time getting to know the rules is a poor position to take. Even if the player doesn't want to go to a rules school, send their caddy instead. How difficult can that be?
Yea its interesting indeed how these incidents keep happening again and again and again, yet virtually every other sport already solved these problems....decades ago.
I’m not sure the NFL has determined what a catch or a fumble recovery is definitely for at least 10 years.
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As an interesting aside, back in the 80's I played at a club where one group played for very high stakes. A player chipped from off the green and the ball hung just on the lip of the hole. He walked up, looked at it, then went over to his cart to get his putter, probably 30 yards away. While he was walking back to finish, the ball fell. After the round the head pro called the USGA for a ruling. They held that the player was entitled to play his next stroke with his putter, so his actions were reasonable and the ball was holed without penalty.
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So the golf ball was still in motion for 54 seconds because he could see it moving at (actual calculation) something like 0.002 inches per second? Yeah...
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Just a little history on this courtesy of "The Rules of Golf Applied" by Cliff Schrock:
1963 Phoenix Open - Palmer was in clubhouse in the lead. Don January was playing with Gary Player and Johnny Potts. Player had a 5 footer to tie Arnie. January putted first and his ball came to rest overhanging the hole. At the time the Rule just said the player was allowed a "momentary delay" to see if the ball would fall. January went up and thought the ball was still moving, which Player and Potts agreed with.
January waited 7 minutes and finally tapped the ball in. Player then missed his putt and Palmer won.
The Rule was then changed because of this to allow 10 seconds and the player got a 2 stroke penalty if the ball fell in after that.
1985 U.S. Open at Oakland Hills - Denis Watson's putt on #8 in the first round came to rest on the lip. Watson waited and eventually the ball did fall in for what he though was a par 4. He was timed as having waited 42 seconds and was penalized 2 strokes. He lost to Andy North by 1 stroke.
In 1988 the R&A and USGA changed the Rule to be a one-stroke penalty which made it the equivalent of tapping the ball in.
It has remained the same since then and was unchanged in 2019. In fact it is one of the few things that I don't think we even discussed. The only real change was the wording was changed from "deemed to be at rest" to "treated as being at rest".
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John
Let me ask you, what happens if the player goes to tap in the putt and it drops while he is at address ?
Niall
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Just a little history on this courtesy of "The Rules of Golf Applied" by Cliff Schrock:
1963 Phoenix Open - Palmer was in clubhouse in the lead. Don January was playing with Gary Player and Johnny Potts. Player had a 5 footer to tie Arnie. January putted first and his ball came to rest overhanging the hole. At the time the Rule just said the player was allowed a "momentary delay" to see if the ball would fall. January went up and thought the ball was still moving, which Player and Potts agreed with.
January waited 7 minutes and finally tapped the ball in. Player then missed his putt and Palmer won.
The Rule was then changed because of this to allow 10 seconds and the player got a 2 stroke penalty if the ball fell in after that.
1985 U.S. Open at Oakland Hills - Denis Watson's putt on #8 in the first round came to rest on the lip. Watson waited and eventually the ball did fall in for what he though was a par 4. He was timed as having waited 42 seconds and was penalized 2 strokes. He lost to Andy North by 1 stroke.
In 1988 the R&A and USGA changed the Rule to be a one-stroke penalty which made it the equivalent of tapping the ball in.
It has remained the same since then and was unchanged in 2019. In fact it is one of the few things that I don't think we even discussed. The only real change was the wording was changed from "deemed to be at rest" to "treated as being at rest".
John,
Technically Watson was penalised one stroke - plus the stroke he would have had if he'd tapped the ball in after 10 seconds. And TC Chen's penalty now would only have been one shot and not two for the double hit.
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
Isn't baseball now testing out a pitch clock in some leagues?
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
Isn't baseball now testing out a pitch clock in some leagues?
Yes but they have visible pitch clocks in place...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/XsS5RhnYFQK5GC-DlECwRTWRrKVBbJjlJn2qOXu_0o8id9-Y0DkSbL7QTv9mU5iLIVyJw_Akl8DUtJwl7MWVOO-yCf8Qn249I7ul2hkS1sEJeJQjFhUbctQ6)
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Golf is the only sport I can name that attempts to enforce time limits when no one is using a clock or stopwatch.
WW
One-Mississippi, two-Mississippi ... Ten-Mississippi.
It ain’t that hard.
Agreed
Basketball has numerous variants on this: 3, 5, 8 and 10 second violations that the ref counts usually with a hand signal... but still without a visible clock for players to see a precise count.
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Just a little history on this courtesy of "The Rules of Golf Applied" by Cliff Schrock:
1963 Phoenix Open - Palmer was in clubhouse in the lead. Don January was playing with Gary Player and Johnny Potts. Player had a 5 footer to tie Arnie. January putted first and his ball came to rest overhanging the hole. At the time the Rule just said the player was allowed a "momentary delay" to see if the ball would fall. January went up and thought the ball was still moving, which Player and Potts agreed with.
January waited 7 minutes and finally tapped the ball in. Player then missed his putt and Palmer won.
The Rule was then changed because of this to allow 10 seconds and the player got a 2 stroke penalty if the ball fell in after that.
1985 U.S. Open at Oakland Hills - Denis Watson's putt on #8 in the first round came to rest on the lip. Watson waited and eventually the ball did fall in for what he though was a par 4. He was timed as having waited 42 seconds and was penalized 2 strokes. He lost to Andy North by 1 stroke.
In 1988 the R&A and USGA changed the Rule to be a one-stroke penalty which made it the equivalent of tapping the ball in.
It has remained the same since then and was unchanged in 2019. In fact it is one of the few things that I don't think we even discussed. The only real change was the wording was changed from "deemed to be at rest" to "treated as being at rest".
John,
Technically Watson was penalised one stroke - plus the stroke he would have had if he'd tapped the ball in after 10 seconds. And TC Chen's penalty now would only have been one shot and not two for the double hit.
Mike,
The penalty was two strokes. When the ball fell in the hole he had holed out with his previous stroke. the penalty statement for Rule 16-1 was Loss of Hole in Match Play and Two Strokes in Stroke play.
The result was that he was one stroke higher than he would have been had he tapped in, but the penalty was two strokes, just as the result today is the same as if you tapped in, but it is a one-stroke penalty.
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John
Let me ask you, what happens if the player goes to tap in the putt and it drops while he is at address ?
Niall
Niall, presuming he didn't cause the ball to move, which requires a 95% certainty under today's rules, the result would be the same as if he hadn't done anything. If it was before 10 seconds, no problem, if it was after, same as Si Woo Kim.
If he accidentally caused it to move, he would have to replace it with no penalty and then tap it in.
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After spending considerable time trying to navigate the rules of golf on USGA.com. I've been unsuccessful finding the rule that covers this situation.
JVB, could you guide?
What strikes me as different is that Kim's shot was from off the green. I was under the impression the golfer had 10 seconds once he got to the ball, from a putt, not a chip.
Any clarification would be helpful
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Adam, did you see 13-3? It covers a ball overhanging the hole. Doesn't seem to matter where the shot originated.
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After spending considerable time trying to navigate the rules of golf on USGA.com. I've been unsuccessful finding the rule that covers this situation.
JVB, could you guide?
What strikes me as different is that Kim's shot was from off the green. I was under the impression the golfer had 10 seconds once he got to the ball, from a putt, not a chip.
Any clarification would be helpful
Adam, as Kevin says, you’ll find it in Rule 13.3 (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-13.html#Rule%2013.3). While that Rule is in about the putting green, it has nothing to do with where the ball was played from only where it came to rest.
You could be he first to hit on a par 3 and your ball comes to rest overhanging the hole. The other three players in your group could all then hit. You might have to help another player search for his ball and finally get to the green 5 minutes or more later. Once you are there, you’ll get your 10 seconds. As long as you are not unnecessarily delaying to give it more time, there would be no problem.