Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on March 07, 2021, 05:18:34 AM
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250 yds to 300 yds is a range of holes that somehow seems to get forgotten in the modern era.
What would be 18 great holes within the 250 yds to 300 yds range (mens back tees)?
I can think of some but shall wait a while to give others the opportunity to nominate in the first instance.
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5
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18
If a thread akin to this has been raised before could someone please highlight the previous relevant thread.
atb
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Not sure if these are really great.
16th @ Prestwick
17th @ Ganton
14th @ Gleneagles Kings (might be longer than 300 off the left side tee and from there it is not great)
I thought of some others but they are not really 'great'. It almost needs something very penal running up one side.
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18th Normandie GC, St. Louis, Mo. - 250 yds; par 3
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Hard to beat the 10th at Riv. Could be argued it's the greatest short 4 in the world. What a range of scores you could have - all without losing a ball.
The 8th at PVGC is another one although it is less known. Like Riv's 10 the second shot at PVGC 8 is about as delicate as you can get.
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Thomas,
Why only the back tees? My guess is very few of us play those tees so how would we know the hole is great from back there. I can name hundreds that are great from that distance from other tees!! The 4th at Pebble Beach. What a great hole from 275 yards!!!
Johathan,
Two great holes but according to Thomas they don’t qualify
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JC: Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!
I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)
Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee. Clients here always want the extra length. I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!
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1 Brora
3 Swinley Forest
5 Golspie
7 The Island Club
9 Crail Balcomie
10 Elie
13 Lahinch
15 Nairn
17 Kilspindie
18 North Berwick
Ira
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Why only the back tees?
I specified a very specific limitation to encourage folks to think out of the box and maybe do a little research rather than just posting a usual suspect hole.
I also anticipated a comment like Toms "Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee. Clients here always want the extra length. I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!" Ego and vanity and marketing amongst some is not unknown within golf.
atb
PS - 8th at Cruden Bay
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Thomas,
It is your thread, but I think it is actually more out of the box to thinking to list holes that would be great from this distance that have tees far longer. If you played the 10th at Riviera from the back tees, you might never know how much greater the hole might be if you played from the 260 yard tee just like the 4th at Pebble (which also doesn't qualify). But to keep with your thread and to make Mike Malone happy, the 10th at Rolling Green!
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1. Vesper CC 296
2. Hyannisport Club 273
3. Sunnehanna CC 286
4. Misquamicut Club 272
5. Southampton GC 280
6. Huntington Valley CC Black 275
7. Glens Falls CC 292
8. Merion West 242
9. Sankaty Head 289
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18 North Berwick
Ira
I thought of that one but I also thought it is a very average hole....almost the worst if not one of the worst at NB.
GREAT I suppose will have different meanings.
The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses. Holes like the 3rd and 4th at Painswick, probs even 16 are GREAT holes for me. All are great lookers. 1st at Thurlestone perhaps. There are NONE on any of the Open Rota's. Sunningdale has the 9th but again it is pretty poor.
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JC: Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!
I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)
Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee. Clients here always want the extra length. I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!
Not yet..
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JC: Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!
I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)
Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee. Clients here always want the extra length. I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!
Not yet..
True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.
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The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses. Holes like the 3rd and 4th at Painswick, probs even 16 are GREAT holes for me. All are great lookers. 1st at Thurlestone perhaps. There are NONE on any of the Open Rota's. Sunningdale has the 9th but again it is pretty poor.
Adrian:
There are few short par-4's on most of The Open rota courses because the powers that be are obsessed with length and defending par, and the trickle down effect of that has ruined lots of interesting holes in the process. However The Old Course has a ton of par-4's that are very short, just not quite under 300 yards. The 9th and 10th and 12th have all been driven many times.
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JC: Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!
I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)
Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee. Clients here always want the extra length. I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!
Not yet..
True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.
LOL-That ship sailed at 340 for Finau
Harder is between 3 wood and driving iron for him
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True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.
LOL-That ship sailed at 340 for Finau
Harder is between 3 wood and driving iron for him
LOL - that's why I said 310.
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One of my favorite courses has three of them on the front nine alone - Myopia Hunt Club - #1, #3 and #6. Are they great holes? All subjective. As I said, I can think of hundreds that might be better but unfortunately have further back tees. We talked about the 17th at TPC at Scottsdale but it doesn't qualify. Nor does the 10th at Merion :'( But once again, those shorter tees/options exist but for some reason golfers don't count them. Why?? I have never really understood that. It would be like Riviera adding a tee at 420 yards for #10. They don't have the room but would it ruin the hole and no longer be talked about as one of the greatest short par fours? Why must holes be judged from the tips (or at least some courses) ??? :'(
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One of my favorite courses has three of them on the front nine alone - Myopia Hunt Club - #1, #3 and #6. Are they great holes? All subjective. As I said, I can think of hundreds that might be better but unfortunately have further back tees. We talked about the 17th at TPC at Scottsdale but it doesn't qualify. Nor does the 10th at Merion :'( But once again, those shorter tees/options exist but for some reason golfers don't count them. Why?? I have never really understood that. It would be like Riviera adding a tee at 420 yards for #10. They don't have the room but would it ruin the hole and no longer be talked about as one of the greatest short par fours? Why must holes be judged from the tips (or at least some courses) ??? :'(
So, it sounds like (a) you have never built a hole under 300 yards from the back tee, and (b) you haven't seen as many cool golf courses as you pretend, since others have managed to nominate a lot of candidates for this thread.
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18 North Berwick
Ira
I thought of that one but I also thought it is a very average hole....almost the worst if not one of the worst at NB.
GREAT I suppose will have different meanings.
Adrian,
I agree that on a course chock full of terrific holes, 18 is far from the best. But the green complex and green contours are quite good plus I am a sucker for rumpled fairways—they are pretty rare in the US.
Ira
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Tom,
I have played most of those mentioned and added three candidates from one course - Myopia Hunt Club. How about #8 at Oakmont. That is a great one but who plays it from 295 yards? Why do we have to judge courses from the tips. Have you seen some of the back tees they put in at Oakmont? Wow. I would bet no one here has played them all. Even the pros don’t go that far back. So why would we judge the holes from the tips?
Ira,
I always think of the 18th at The Old Course when I play the 18th at North Berwick. The road and buildings to the right scare me on both.
I played with a magazine panelist from GM one time and he complained that the 3rd hole at Lehigh was too long of a par three (235 yards). I said really? Go play a shorter tee like the one at 165 yards if 235 is too much for you. Geez!
How long is the #1 hole at The National? Probably doesn’t qualify does it?
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3 at Cavendish
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Tom,
And actually I did design and build a 265 yard par four from the back tee at Berkeley CC - an original hole based on the bunkering complex of Hunter. Forrest and I also re-routed the hole to make it work. So I guess I am one up on you ;D And I am nominating the hole :D
Forrest and I also designed a 290 yard par four for a new 18 hole design at Colonial CC in MA but it didn’t get built :'(
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9 and 11 at Dunaverty
So many great holes in this range in the Uk where that distance is available because not worried about calling it par 3 and being too hard/unreachable..
and not subject as a par 4 to my modern pet peeve of always an impossible green or penal or so severe that a layup into a divot infested area is the only reasonable play.
When we shortened our 17th hole from 380 to 280(to eliminate a(nother) 70 yard backward uphill climb, one of the things I'm most proud of is that there are no areas on the hole that get more divots than others, where there are enough options coupled with fairway width/depth and internal bunkering to avoid one obvious choice if not going for the green.(which nearly all members can't reach at 280 uphill so the hole better be interesting otherwise)
It also helps there was a cool "teepee" green which is better approached from a certain side depending upon which side the pin is on
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The 7th at Engineers is an absolute great drivable par 4 of 292 yards. The hole is probably 5 feet downhill, but you hit to a 40 yard wide fairway 30 feet below and then up 25 feet to a tiny punchbowl green with very deep bunkers on the sides and back. There is a false front that if hit, will result in ball rolling back down 30 yards. In tournaments among good players, the hole plays over par, but the players who resist the temptation to go for the green tend to average under par. The plus is that if you do hit the green, your eagle putt should be less than 15 feet. In 1999 I recovered from a terrible putting start by making a one foot eagle and advanced to another US Open sectional with the momentum change. A few years later in match play, my birdie lost the hole, and my opponent birdied the next 5 holes. Conversely, the group behind had an up and down 5 win the hole.
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One I enjoy (been a while since I played it) is #5 at Cuscowilla - 299 yard par four. I am sure if I had time to look through my scorecards, there must be some Weiskopf/Morrish courses with holes from the tips in this range. They were leaders in the push for short fours.
#9 at Cypress is one of my favorites and #7 at The Olympic Club is pretty good as well. Both under 300 from the tips.
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The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses.
I’d go along with this. A sad area of general omission these days. Lost opportunities?
Indeed the absence of such length holes is one of the reasons I raised the thread.
Adrian is too modest to mention it but the canny 2nd on his Stranahan course, is a mere 269 yds of cunning.
Some others worth mentioning -
18th at Kington is 279 yds
17th at Minchinhampton Old is 275 yds
1st at Stinchcombe Hill is 276 yds
16th at Aberdovey is 289 yds
8th, 13th and 18th at Perranporth are all between 250-300 yds
Atb
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Thomas,
What might be my favorite short par four on the planet (I am biased because I got to work on it) is the short 17th at Tucker's Point Club in Bermuda. Measured along the ground it is just over 300 yards from the tips but in reality it is about 285. It is an iconic view standing in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean on a spec of land looking over the turquoise waters. Paul Adams (the GM there at the time) and I had grand plans to implement a master plan that I did for the course but we only got part way with our changes chipping away for five years or so before the hotel property along with the golf course went into receivership :-\ As i said it might be my favorite short four I have ever played of the 1600 plus (maybe not as cool as I think courses) that I have seen :D
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There are few short par-4's on most of The Open rota courses because the powers that be are obsessed with length and defending par, and the trickle down effect of that has ruined lots of interesting holes in the process. However The Old Course has a ton of par-4's that are very short, just not quite under 300 yards. The 9th and 10th and 12th have all been driven many times.
1. Exactly
2. This is what I mean about the absence of objectivity (re 9/10) influencing what we regard as much as what architects build anew... those holes are often pish-poshed, but I think they are great fun and in a match, very bit as amusing as is the Road Hole... they don;t precisely come under the yardage threshold this thread (and my other posts) is focused on, but the point you make of their drivability is part of that larger point.
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I am always going to go for
4 St Enodoc
18 Kington
_________________________
16 Aberdovey
3 Cavendish
7 Elie
17 Kilspindie
5 Alnmouth Village
8 Perranporth
13 Perranporth
13 Lahinch
12 Pennard
1 Formby Ladies
15 Palmetto
16 Prestwick
10 Elie
It is very difficult to think of 250-270 holes, at the far extreme for a par 3.
Ciao
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Add 9th at Rye and 13th at Lahinch to the mix.
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Lincoln Park in San Francisco has 6 par-4's between 250 & 300 yards (and a few more between 300 & 325). #10 & #11 are the best of the bunch.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/e148af5dbf4a5ba1728ffedd17031ff4?AccessKeyId=6F5A4831EF967E1E4C09&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 (http://nebula.wsimg.com/e148af5dbf4a5ba1728ffedd17031ff4?AccessKeyId=6F5A4831EF967E1E4C09&disposition=0&alloworigin=1)
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Playing a fun one right this second, #16 at Robber’s Row in SC, a Pete Dye redesign. 265 yard par four from tips.
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Playing a fun one right this second, #16 at Robber’s Row in SC, a Pete Dye redesign. 265 yard par four from tips.
Really? Alice and Pete were generally not fond of drivable par-4's -- Pete just called them a long par-3.
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13th Franklin Hills 298 yards Ross
5th at Southampton 294 yards Raynor
5th Cuscowilla 304 yards Coore and Crenshaw
2nd Powelton 279 yards Emmet
2nd NGLA 287 yards Macdonald
7th Sand Hills 285 yards Coore& Crenshaw
15th Dismal River Red 312 yards Doak
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Tom,
Robber's Row was a redesign by Pete so maybe that is the reason. The 5th at Long Cove is drivable but hardly worth the risk. You know that hole. I have gone for it just for fun and been close. The smart shot is something about 200 off the tee - closer to the water leaves a clear 80-110 yard shot to the green where as to the right the second is blind.
The 6th at PGA West is a 255+ yard par three which is one example of what you are talking about with Pete.
As far as other holes, the 3rd hole at The Olympic Club was lengthened to 250 yards (par three). This is another example of why do we worry about the back tees.
The 15th at French Creek outside Philly by Gil Hanse is a 290 yard par four from the tips. I made a 2 there playing with Gil from the back :D
Fazio did a 295 yard par four the 4th at The Quarry at La Quinta.
Doesn't Interlachen by Ross in MN have a short four (#15 or #16) that I remember being pretty special but I think it is just over 310 yards (likely an added tee not original).
I think there are a lot of these holes if you look for them. And I still think some of the best won't be mentioned because of silly back tees that stretch them past the guidelines of this thread.
When you evaluate holes for greatness, what tees to you judge this from?
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13th at Kingsley. 292 yards from the tips. I'll hit anything from driver to 6 iron depending on weather, and more importantly, the pin position.
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Two of Australia's best:
Royal Adelaide 3
Lost Farm 14
Andrew
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Tom,
The 5th at Long Cove is drivable but hardly worth the risk. You know that hole. I have gone for it just for fun and been close. The smart shot is something about 200 off the tee - closer to the water leaves a clear 80-110 yard shot to the green where as to the right the second is blind.
I worked at Long Cove 1988-1991.
Never once did I ever see or hear of anyone try to drive #5 and I played a lot of golf with good players I taught (Doug Weaver,a Tour player I taught, John Hughes All American at NC, Kevin King,)
Probably 280-290 as the crow flies to the front of the green from back tee. 310 in total then.
We hosted the 1991 US Mid-Am-never heard a peep about anyone trying to drive it
I'm quite sure there are plenty who can fly it there now(good luck stopping it), even with 3 wood, but I don't think Pete Dye ever intended for that to be a reasonable option-which it might be now.
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Besides 8 at Oakmont which has been mentioned, there are two on the front nine at Sewickly , 3 and 5 that I believe are under 300. Number 3 is down a hill and pretty interesting
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A pair from So Cal:
The 11th at LACC North is listed at 249y par 3
The driveable and split fairway 3rd at Rustic Canyon is listed at 315 from the blacks but as the crow flies is 290 (tee to center of the green.) It's a hole you drive by on your way in and circle as a birdie opportunity, but can quickly pile on a double or worse to your card. At least 3 distinct routes, left, right, and going for it with a deceptively firm and fall away green.
https://imgur.com/a/nC2GneB (https://imgur.com/a/nC2GneB)
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15th hole Palmetto-298 from tips
Great fallaway and right to left green tilt makes hole.
used to hate the hole...
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1 at Victoria (Australia)
At least when I played it
A very easy first hole which almost put more Pressure on the start of the round.
I always felt like I HAD to make three getting started.
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I am pretty sure 9 Rye & Crail, 15 Nairn and 13 Franklin Hills are longer than 300 yards.
Ciao
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#5 - Blind Brook
#1 - Fenway
#3 - Winged Foot West
#4 - Stanwich
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Jeff,
Back then maybe they didn't go for it at #5 at Long Cove, but the game has changed. I didn't say it was smart but it is easily reachable (a lot of guys could hit long irons).
Look at #9 at Harbour Town. Tell the pros that one is not a drivable par four. Brooks hit it to 3 feet and many guys didn't need driver to get there.
How about the 10th hole at The Belfry? Less than 300 yard carry to that sliver of a green but many go for it. I tried just for fun from one tee up and it definitely is possible.
I played Spring Creek Ranch, a Nicklaus course in Memphis, TN many times in their member guest. One the one hole, about a 400 yard par four that is like an elbow hole with a lake along the left side between the tee and the green, I hit a nice drive of about 250 yards down the left to the corner of the elbow leaving me a short iron into the green. My partner did the same and we are standing there waiting for our opponents to play. The one player is a college kid from Arkansas. He is going back and forth with his caddie about what club to hit. We finally realize he is planning to carry the lake and go for the green. The carry over the water is 310 yards and the green is 330 yards away. He was back and forth between Driver and 3W. He choose Driver. It was too much club. He flew the green :o
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Jeff,
Back then maybe they didn't go for it at #5 at Long Cove, but the game has changed. I didn't say it was smart but it is easily reachable (a lot of guys could hit long irons).
Look at #9 at Harbour Town. Tell the pros that one is not a drivable par four. Brooks hit it to 3 feet and many guys didn't need driver to get there.
How about the 10th hole at The Belfry? Less than 300 yard carry to that sliver of a green but many go for it. I tried just for fun from one tee up and it definitely is possible.
I played Spring Creek Ranch, a Nicklaus course in Memphis, TN many times in their member guest. One the one hole, about a 400 yard par four that is like an elbow hole with a lake along the left side between the tee and the green, I hit a nice drive of about 250 yards down the left to the corner of the elbow leaving me a short iron into the green. My partner did the same and we are standing there waiting for our opponents to play. The one player is a college kid from Arkansas. He is going back and forth with his caddie about what club to hit. We finally realize he is planning to carry the lake and go for the green. The carry over the water is 310 yards and the green is 330 yards away. He was back and forth between Driver and 3W. He choose Driver. It was too much club. He flew the green :o
Mark,
Not saying the game hasn't changed.
Just that Pete Dye didn't design 5 at LC to be driveable in 1981.
Of course it is now, but I'd guess if he were designing it now it would be 355 from the back(+15%-and driveable by 2035 ;) )....but perhaps he would have a different mindset now on driveable par 4's.
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Jeff,
This is the challenge I was talking about in part on the other thread - assessing/restoring "design intent". But some here don't think we should try to figure that out or presume anything.
I wonder if Nicklaus ever thought that his 400+ yard hole at Spring Creek Ranch would turn into a risk/reward hole (on the tee shot). He is still around so we could ask him :D Maybe it turned into a better hole :D
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Jeff,
This is the challenge I was talking about in part on the other thread - assessing/restoring "design intent". But some here don't think we should try to figure that out or presume anything.
I wonder if Nicklaus ever thought that his 400+ yard hole at Spring Creek Ranch would turn into a risk/reward hole (on the tee shot). He is still around so we could ask him :D Maybe it turned into a better hole :D
as did 5 at LC
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Warm agreement about
3 at Swinley
4 at St Enedoc
9 at The Sacred Nine (very back tee issues may stretch this over the limit)
9 at Rye (which is I think 299)
16 at Prestwick
17 at Huntercombe
but to me best of all is still
16 at Aberdovey - 'a glorious and unique hole' to quote Patric Dickinson in A Round of Golf Courses, as it unquestionably is, and the description of it in ARoGC is one of the very best in a book full of wonderful hole descriptions.
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3 at Cavendish
The 3rd at Cavendish is a classic of the genre.
280 yards from the back tee and ostensibly the easiest hole on the course the green is driveable by many but held by few. It slopes wickedly from right to left and from front to back. A tee shot landing on the green is likely to run off the back onto the 2nd tee or even the 1st green! The route in is actually through the gap between the back bunker and the chain of fronting bunkers.
The wise shot may be to play short left and be left with an uphill pitch to the flag. It’s probably easier to get close that way than it is with a long putt from the wrong part of the green!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51016120258_79be0574bb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kJ7Xbj)3d (https://flic.kr/p/2kJ7Xbj) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
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Good stuff Mark...would be fun to see what you ultimately had in mind for Tucker's Point. The Rulewich version is not terrible, but has a bunch of funky holes. Last time I played it, it was firm and windy, and probably the hardest 6000y course in the world at that moment!
Given the three holes mentioned at Myopia, I'd say #1 is a good hole, #3 is a great hole, and #6 is not a great hole. #6 sets up like a neat risk-reward, but the green slopes so hard at current speeds that sometimes it's tough for a chip to hold the green, let alone a full wedge.
And I'd like to nominate the 277-yd 6th at my home course, Tedesco! 30 feet uphill to our wildest green, sort of like a potato chip with multiple fall-offs and sideslopes to stop your wedge (or driver). Long, far left, and right are dead. The wedge from 85y is still challenging due to the green. The next hole is only 35y shorter as a par three, so playing the two holes in 7 shots is always the goal.
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The 4th at St Enodoc has been mentioned a couple of times. Sorry, splendid hole it may be but it’s DQ’d from this exercise being 323 yds from the men’s back tees.
Other holes mentioned may also fall outside of the 300 yd men’s back tee limit, which was very deliberately chosen for there seems to be a distinct gap in the men’s game between long par-3’s and the ego/vanity mark at 300 yds. And it’s that gap, the ‘ego/vanity gap’ (?) that I wished to explore.
Atb
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More in the unique category, the gully hole Astoria G&CC #15 269.
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i'd like to mention the 5th and 7th at Golspie the 5th at 288 is drivable but being hard by the North Sea don't go left and lots of long grass on the right. A blind second to a bathtub green that is open on the far end allowing the ball to run through into either of two nasty pot bunkers. The reward should you reach safely with your first or second is a small flat green giving you an excellent chance to make a putt.
The 7th is a few yards shorter but plays uphill. The element of blindness is softened by a directional flag. Long hitters might fly the ball to the top but the ground up there is so rumpled you are guaranteed one or more capricious bounces--maybe onto the green maybe into the gorse. But this green is as findish as the 5th's is benign. A valley of sin front and center that is part of the putting surface, a runaway section back right, and virtually unreadable portion back left.
Both holes rely on blindness as their claim to fame and as integral to the degree of challenge I always look forward to playing them as the suspense of what's on the other side provides for delicious expectation or ominous dread.
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Can you make a small exception for #6 at U of M? The card says 310, but from the modern tips, it's 292 to the middle of the front green, which is usually where the pin is located.
It was the first hole that I ever played where the architecture really grabbed my attention. Hopefully it gets restored one day and the back of the green gets enlarged to its original dimensions.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y8F8xVJl.jpg)
When the pin is in front, the backstop is fascinating to try to use on the approach pitches. It's about a 10 foot elevation difference between the front of the green and the back.
(https://i.imgur.com/LlDAoz1l.jpg)
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The 4th at St Enodoc has been mentioned a couple of times. Sorry, splendid hole it may be but it’s DQ’d from this exercise being 323 yds from the men’s back tees.
Other holes mentioned may also fall outside of the 300 yd men’s back tee limit, which was very deliberately chosen for there seems to be a distinct gap in the men’s game between long par-3’s and the ego/vanity mark at 300 yds. And it’s that gap, the ‘ego/vanity gap’ (?) that I wished to explore.
That tee at St. Enodoc was added +/- 20 years ago; the hole was 274 yards when I first saw it and much better for not having that tee. So if that was due to the ego/vanity gap, it's the gap of some green chairman or consulting designer rather than Braid.
Mark will say this makes his point that we shouldn't just focus on back tees, but Mark is also an advocate for providing many choices of tees, so maybe that disqualifies him.
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(https://i.imgur.com/14vU6lJ.jpg)
There are a few at Cruit Island, but my favorite is the 7th, which is 293 yards.
**EDIT** I take that back. The 7th is 293 meters, so it goes over the 300-yard max. But the 5th is 280 yards and is also a blast, so I'll nominate that one.
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The 13th at Rock Creek is a pretty terrific 250+ par 3.
Also a 13th, the ~280 yard par 4.
The 290 yard par 4 8th at Pinehurst #3.
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Tom,
Yes I am a strong advocate for more tees (particularly shorter ones) as if they are done well they can cost almost nothing relative to the added options and enjoyment they bring. I am NOT an advocate of adding many new back tees unless there is very strong reasons to do so. Very few golfers use those back tees relative to shorter tees.
And yes that example does make my point :D
Note: Take all the greatest par fours you can think of and add a tee in the 250-300 yard range (if there isn't one in this range already). Now you have a really interesting option on the best fours on the planet and you didn't hinder their design one iota!!
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Note: Take all the greatest par fours you can think of and add a tee in the 250-300 yard range (if there isn't one in this range already). Now you have a really interesting option on the best fours on the planet and you didn't hinder their design one iota!!
Now you're talking!
The 1st at Hoylake/RLGC, across the OB cop would be splendid at such a length. Foxy at Dornoch? Road Hole at TOC? The list could be long, very long.
Imagine 18 such classic and iconic holes all played between 250-300 yds.
Max length for 18 would be 5,400 yds.
Time to play less. Land footprint less. Water usage less. Running costs/cost to play less.
Challenge and fun factor high, potentially very high.
And this is before considering the equipment debate.
:)
atb
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Note: Take all the greatest par fours you can think of and add a tee in the 250-300 yard range (if there isn't one in this range already). Now you have a really interesting option on the best fours on the planet and you didn't hinder their design one iota!!
Now you're talking!
The 1st at Hoylake/RLGC, across the OB cop would be splendid at such a length. Foxy at Dornoch? Road Hole at TOC? The list could be long, very long.
Imagine 18 such classic and iconic holes all played between 250-300 yds.
Max length for 18 would be 5,400 yds.
Time to play less. Land footprint less. Water usage less. Running costs/cost to play less.
Challenge and fun factor high, potentially very high.
And this is before considering the equipment debate.
:)
atb
In this scenario I imagine trudging miles forward on hole after hole. Very, very dull.
Ciao
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The 4th at St Enodoc has been mentioned a couple of times. Sorry, splendid hole it may be but it’s DQ’d from this exercise being 323 yds from the men’s back tees.
Other holes mentioned may also fall outside of the 300 yd men’s back tee limit, which was very deliberately chosen for there seems to be a distinct gap in the men’s game between long par-3’s and the ego/vanity mark at 300 yds. And it’s that gap, the ‘ego/vanity gap’ (?) that I wished to explore.
That tee at St. Enodoc was added +/- 20 years ago; the hole was 274 yards when I first saw it and much better for not having that tee. So if that was due to the ego/vanity gap, it's the gap of some green chairman or consulting designer rather than Braid.
Mark will say this makes his point that we shouldn't just focus on back tees, but Mark is also an advocate for providing many choices of tees, so maybe that disqualifies him.
Assuming the tee is on the way from the 3rd green, I don't see an issue with a longer tee for #4. Folks are walking right by the area, why not put a tee in? I feel the same for 18 Kington. If there is a good spot for a new tee longer than what exists and the walk is the same, why not?
Ciao
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Sean,
I feel that way on some courses trudging all the way "often backwards" to the back tees. Maybe now you know how all the forward tee players feel. It is actually not that bad as you have to cover that ground anyway as you are walking forward. Enjoy the walk.
My main point is that those 250-300 yard tees/starting points for the hole, are available on almost every great par four.
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Sean,
I feel that way on some courses trudging all the way "often backwards" to the back tees. Maybe now you know how all the forward tee players feel. It is actually not that bad as you have to cover that ground anyway as you are walking forward. Enjoy the walk.
My main point is that those 250-300 yard tees/starting points for the hole, are available on almost every great par four.
Mark
I don't consider it the same thing at all. You are suggesting mega forward tees in front of the forward tees. That creates long walks between green and tee on every hole. IMO, the fewer and shorter the breaks in being engaged with the course the better. While you won't walk any further, you will be less engaged for more time while on the course. I can walk anywhere for free. Why make me do that to reach a tee after I paid money? Basically, mega tees encourages cart use and that is exactly what golf should be avoiding. I can understand that hands are tied once a course is built and trying to "fix" the design with retro-fitted tees may be the only solution, but its really lipstick on a pig. Archies screwed up and now they say they have a great solution ::). Placing a back tee at 4 St E just offers a tee option in dead space. Mega tees are not typically in dead space. They are in playing areas from tees further back.
Ciao
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The 1st at Hoylake/RLGC, across the OB cop would be splendid at such a length. Foxy at Dornoch?
I feel like moving up on Foxy would make the hole far less interesting. I've only played it once, and I'm sure the strategy can change day to day based on weather and wind. But when I was there, it was about 460 yards, playing into a decent headwind. A shot down the right would leave a blind second. Not just blind, but you could be stuck behind some tall dunes. If you were too tight to them, there's no way you can get over with a long iron, so you'd be forced to play short of the green. Going down the left, on the other hand, gave you a clear view to the elevated green and no mounds to clear. If I was playing from 300-yard tees, I'd just bomb the ball as far as I could. You'd clear all the mounding on the right and would end up somewhere near the base of the green. Even if you got stuck behind a mound, you'd be throwing a 60-degree wedge up and over it without any issue. The hole basically turns into a pitch and putt.
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Sean,
There are probably already forward tees at these distances on most holes (or at least there should be). How do you think those players get there after playing the previous hole. There is no architectural error. You have heard me say we are setting up regulation length 18 holes courses to play as 18 par three holes on certain days/times. Golfers love it. You don't have to play all the holes from this distance if you don't want to but "the option is there".
Dan,
Wouldn't most any hole in the 250-300 yard range be a drive chip and putt for many golfers? That green at Foxy is still not easy to hit even with a 60 degree wedge :D Again, the option to play the hole from this distance is there. On many courses the option to go further back (if you would want to) is not.
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I'd rather walk forwards than trudge back (especially if there's then a forced carry!).
As to the 4th at St Enodoc, Googleearth shows there to be 5 teeing areas. 4 of them require a walk forward from the 3rd green, the 5th, the longest playing rearmost, sits to the left and fractionally to the rearmost part of the 3rd green.
Ref the Foxy 14th: angles, strategic and playability options, the dune ridgeline and it's extensions into the valley, the greens contouring, its hole locations and its firmness, the wind direction and strength and the delightfully rascally raised green with both severe mown run-off and gunched sides. Note also how per Googleearth the walk-back from the centre of the 13th green to the rearmost Foxy 14th tee is appox 80 yds.
250-300 yrds can be covered in many different ways. Which way gives the player the likelihood of making the lowest score most frequently however and does the player have sufficient control over their ego and vanity to allow them to pursue the most likely option?
atb
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Dan,
Wouldn't most any hole in the 250-300 yard range be a drive chip and putt for many golfers? That green at Foxy is still not easy to hit even with a 60 degree wedge :D Again, the option to play the hole from this distance is there. On many courses the option to go further back (if you would want to) is not.
With no bunkers or hazards in play, Foxy at 300 yards would mean driver every time.
There are plenty of holes with water near the green, or tree issues, or deep bunkers where I might decide to hit an iron if the tees were moved up to 300 yards. The short hole at TPC River Highlands (15?) ... pros all hit driver or 3-wood. But for the average golfer, with OB tight on the right and water in play on the left, there is some thought that goes into what to hit.
And frankly, I'm not scratch golfer, but I like my chances hitting the green on Foxy with a wedge. That green is massive. I might four-putt, but that's a different issue ...
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With no bunkers or hazards in play, Foxy at 300 yards would mean driver every time.
There are plenty of holes with water near the green, or tree issues, or deep bunkers where I might decide to hit an iron if the tees were moved up to 300 yards. The short hole at TPC River Highlands (15?) ... pros all hit driver or 3-wood. But for the average golfer, with OB tight on the right and water in play on the left, there is some thought that goes into what to hit.
And frankly, I'm not scratch golfer, but I like my chances hitting the green on Foxy with a wedge. That green is massive. I might four-putt, but that's a different issue ...
!?
atb
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Note also how per Googleearth the walk-back from the centre of the 13th green to the rearmost Foxy 14th tee is appox 80 yds.
That's because the 13th hole was tacked into the routing at a later date. The original course went straight from 12 to 14 which is why the back tee for 14 is right beside the 12th green.
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I would consider adding three holes from the Melbourne Sandbelt to the discussion.
3 @ Kingston Heath
9 @ Kingston Heath
1 @ Victoria
Also, just a smidgen over 300 yards is also 10 @ Royal Melbourne West.
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I would add....
[/color]
[/color]The Ridgewood Country Club 6 Center 291 yards:[/color]
Known as the “Nickel and Dime”, 6 Center is Ridgewood’s shortest par 4. The hole plays only 275 yards from the blue tees but tests the mettle of even the best golfers. The short length of the hole presents a variety of options. The longest hitters can attempt to drive the green. Most players follow a two-shot strategy. Long hitters who play a driver off the tee can over hit the fairway and come to rest in gnarly, thick rough on the upslope to the green. But a poorly struck iron or rescue tee ball can find either of two fairway bunkers or thick rough. The approach shot is very tricky. A short iron shot that must be played accurately (with a soft touch) up to a small and extremely narrow “plateau green” surrounded by six deadly bunkers with those on the left side of the green the most foreboding. Failure to hit to the upper or lower tier where the flag stick is located will result in a challenging two-putt with subtle breaks that seem almost impossible to be real. This hole claims a place on Golf Digest’s “Top 500 Best Holes in the World” and holds a place among the Sports Illustrated “Top 18 Tillinghast Holes.” The Met Golfer also rates it in their “Dream 18.” Modern legend suggests that the “Nickel and Dime” name comes from the strategy Tillinghast anticipated would be employed by the game’s best players. A Nickel (5-iron) to the fairway would be followed by a Dime (10-iron ) to the green.
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I would consider adding three holes from the Melbourne Sandbelt to the discussion.
3 @ Kingston Heath
9 @ Kingston Heath
1 @ Victoria
Also, just a smidgen over 300 yards is also 10 @ Royal Melbourne West.
You missed the best one: 4 @ Woodlands
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11 Lancaster CC 294 yds
14 Leatherstocking GC 285 yds
17 Morris County Club 290 yds
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Some favorites in Connecticut:
1
- CC of Farmington: 290
- Pequabuck GC: 294
15
- TPC River Highlands: 296
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11 Lancaster CC 294 yds
14 Leatherstocking GC 285 yds
17 Morris County Club 290 yds
Which Lancaster is that? I don't remember the one in PA having a hole on the back nine that short.
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11 Lancaster CC 294 yds
14 Leatherstocking GC 285 yds
17 Morris County Club 290 yds
Which Lancaster is that? I don't remember the one in PA having a hole on the back nine that short.
Scratchin my head over this as well. 11 is around that short from the Ladies.... Nothing is that short from the men's tees.
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Rolling Road - Catonsville, MD - Willie Park Jr
#5 271yds
#9 284yds
Both good par 4's with lots of interest.
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#7 at Scarboro is 276
#9 at Rosedale is 265
If you're allowing wiggle room:
#16 at Cutten Fields is 312...but it does have Stanley Thompson's Dormie House just to the left of the green.
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11 Lancaster CC 294 yds
14 Leatherstocking GC 285 yds
17 Morris County Club 290 yds
Which Lancaster is that? I don't remember the one in PA having a hole on the back nine that short.
Scratchin my head over this as well. 11 is around that short from the Ladies.... Nothing is that short from the men's tees.
Western New York-Sorry I didn’t clarify.
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18 North Berwick
Ira
I thought of that one but I also thought it is a very average hole....almost the worst if not one of the worst at NB.
GREAT I suppose will have different meanings.
The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses. Holes like the 3rd and 4th at Painswick, probs even 16 are GREAT holes for me. All are great lookers. 1st at Thurlestone perhaps. There are NONE on any of the Open Rota's. Sunningdale has the 9th but again it is pretty poor.
Sorry for a little bit of a thread snatch but the final hole at NB is a great example of "most anti-climatic 18th." As is the 18th at Preswick. Both holes anti-great holes only partly because of their shortness.
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NB's 18 is one of my top half favourite holes and one of my favourite finishers because anything can happen. A hole in one or an X are possibilities for a decent range of players. Quite unusual for a par 4 finisher.
Ciao
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Opinions of Jonathan and Sean on 18th at NB are a great example of why GCA is so subjective and there are few right answers. Two very well traveled knowledgeable opinions yet polar opposite :D
I happen to really enjoy the 18th at NB for similar reasons to Sean. First time I played it, we parked our rental car in a spot right next to the 18th green. I said to my playing partners, "I am not sure we should park here. Some wild golfer is going to hit us". When we got to that hole, we had a 25 mph wind blowing off the water and all I could see was our rental car right next to the green. I couldn't aim far enough to the left as I thought for sure I was going to be that wild golfer who hit our car. I landed right in front of it and barely managed to stay in bounds :o It is a fun finishing hole as a lot can happen.
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Opinions of Jonathan and Sean on 18th at NB are a great example of why GCA is so subjective and there are few right answers. Two very well traveled knowledgeable opinions yet polar opposite :D
I happen to really enjoy the 18th at NB for similar reasons to Sean. First time I played it, we parked our rental car in a spot right next to the 18th green. I said to my playing partners, "I am not sure we should park here. Some wild golfer is going to hit us". When we got to that hole, we had a 25 mph wind blowing off the water and all I could see was our rental car right next to the green. I couldn't aim far enough to the left as I thought for sure I was going to be that wild golfer who hit our car. I landed right in front of it and barely managed to stay in bounds :o It is a fun finishing hole as a lot can happen.
Tell me one person who tees it up at NB and says, "I can't wait to get to that 18th", Geez.
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Jonathan,
Isn't it a bit like 18 at The Old Course? Do you not like that hole?
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1 at Victoria (Australia)
At least when I played it
A very easy first hole which almost put more Pressure on the start of the round.
I always felt like I HAD to make three getting started.
It's a much different hole now. The one you played (not the original) you had to hit it high and straight and not think too much about where you missed it.
The new one is a distinctly left to right green - draw is likely too miss in the back left bunker - and you have to make sure you don't miss on the same side as the pin.
And it's well under 300 yards - 260, which is a 4 iron for the long guys when it's a touch down wind
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Opinions of Jonathan and Sean on 18th at NB are a great example of why GCA is so subjective and there are few right answers. Two very well traveled knowledgeable opinions yet polar opposite :D
I happen to really enjoy the 18th at NB for similar reasons to Sean. First time I played it, we parked our rental car in a spot right next to the 18th green. I said to my playing partners, "I am not sure we should park here. Some wild golfer is going to hit us". When we got to that hole, we had a 25 mph wind blowing off the water and all I could see was our rental car right next to the green. I couldn't aim far enough to the left as I thought for sure I was going to be that wild golfer who hit our car. I landed right in front of it and barely managed to stay in bounds :o It is a fun finishing hole as a lot can happen.
Tell me one person who tees it up at NB and says, "I can't wait to get to that 18th", Geez.
There is a ton of room between "I can't wait.." and liking a hole. There is some terrific terrain and OOB hard right with a possibility of a hole in one. The hole ticks a lot of my boxes.
Ciao
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Lancaster Country Club in NY has a decent short four in the 11th, but the nearby third is a much better hole, in my opinion. Neither one is worthy of being included in a top 18 of short fours.
https://www.lccny.com/golf/the-course
If I were to consider short fours in western New York, I'd be saddened by the fact that I could not include the fifth (306) nor the tenth (326) at Country Club of Buffalo. Moving them up six and twenty-six yards, respectively, would do nothing to help your score. Both are spectacular short fours, and neither goes into the quarries, although the fifth does skirt the bigger one.
The shortest four at Crag Burn is the third, which tips at 342. Move it to 300 yards and it's still beguiling. Crag Burn and CCB do battle all the time for best club in Buffalo-Niagara.
The two, annual amateur tournaments in the area are held at East Aurora and Niagara Falls country clubs. The International Junior Masters has a 329 yard fifth at the former course, while the Porter Cup has a 342 yard fifteenth at the later course. In the case of the fifteenth, however, the ams aim straight at the green, which takes the angle (and some of the yardage) out of the equation. No help here.
Park Club in Williamsville has no candidates, but its former second course, the Orchard Park Country Club, has a 283-yard fourth. Like the other shorts mentioned above, it's a nice break, but in no way is it worthy of consideration. The fourteenth at OPCC is 313 and much cooler, but overly treed and almost unplayable.
The 15th at Transit Valley (in East Amherst) tips at 308. Sooo close and a pretty good hole. Not top 18, though. The fourth at Springville Country Club to the south tips at 308, but has a fantastic green that flows from front to back. Yup, from front to back. Great cross bunkers, great strategy. Many clubs as options off the tee.
Top three with a bit of withering, in no particular order are the two at CCB and the one at Springville.
The public courses aren't much better. Here are the few ~
#14 at Arrowhead (Akron, NY) @ 300 yards
#4 & #5 at Concord Crest (Concord, NY) @ 298 and 261, respectively
I think that the dearth of short par fours is a terrible thing. Growing up at Grover Cleveland as I did, the presence of about six drivable fours (5, 10, 14, 15, 16, 18) on a 5600-yard course taught us to reach back and kill it. These were holes born of the original layout, the site of the 1912 USGA Open championship.
I should have played there longer, instead of graduating to Audubon, a boring municipal course near SUNY-Buffalo's new campus.
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How many listed so far are Par 3's?
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Perranporth 8
Perranporth 13
Perranporth 18
;D
Whoops! Came across this thread to late. I see Dai had these in mind all along.