Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David Ober on November 21, 2020, 06:38:24 PM
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
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Well, that's approximately 20,000 cubic yards of sand. It could cost $10 per cubic yard or $50, depending on where you are. Then you've got to install drainage and re-turf everything and [probably] fix the irrigation. So, anywhere from $300,000 to $1m, depending on the cost of sand.
A big part of the cost here is that "18 inches" of sand. How deep you need to go depends on the exact sand you use, and its moisture release curve. But you can see why contractors and golf courses would like to cut it close to the bone!
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18" is about twice as much as a lot! $25/ton is a reasonable estimate.
Finding the sand would be your 2nd call, the first one should be to someone who can do it well.
Why 50 yards wide? How wide would you need to not miss?
Why 2 holes?
Cheers
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
What's the reasoning behind the sand cap?
Also, required reading: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/58/20/sand-capped-fairways-can-still-be-wet.html (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/58/20/sand-capped-fairways-can-still-be-wet.html)
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Tom B,
Basically what the article says is if you sand cap your have time do it correctly.
Just like a sand based green needs surface drains and sub surface drainage, so does any area that is sand capped.
Increasing infiltration by during a course medium doesn’t change the need for surface drainage.
And since sand capping is done over heavy soils, there will be a distinct layer where the water will stop. If there is no drainage system to carry it away, the sand cap will stay wet.
Sand capping is the creation of a root zone system just as building a sand based green is, and short cuts will cause problems.
I think the debate is either spending the money to build a sand cap system rootzone, or work with the native soil and thru shaping and drainage get the water off the playing surface. Either can work, and both will fail if not done correctly.
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
18” of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard of.
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
18” of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard of.
Ulterior motive.
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
18” of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard of.
I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.
We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.
They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
18” of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard of.
I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.
We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.
They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.
You don’t need sand or a trencher, you need a chainsaw.
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David, the other obstacle to sand capping a portion of your course is the logistics involved. Haul roads, access to roads for large trucks...sand capping is a big PITA and would be even more so in a partial renovation.
Like others have alluded to, an honest and candid assessment of the situation will probably reveal the reasons why these areas stay wet.
Shade is huge, especially on warm season grasses where the shade weakened grass is always treated with a recuperative process that often means more irrigation. Get rid of the shade, and make sure you have ways to get the water off the surface and away from the high play areas. Chances are you have some storm drainage near by as it sounds like a low area of the course, tying into that and adding small golf drainage in slow surface draining areas is not expensive and does not require a golf contractor.
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Hola!
What would the approximate cost range be to sand cap two golf holes only? A 380 yard par four and a 490 yard par five. Assume a width of 50 yards for each. Assume 18(?) inches of sand cap.
18” of sand cap for a native soil could possibly be the silliest and most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard of.
I'm just an amateur with a thought. I now see that cost is prohibitive regardless of the amount.
We have two holes (especially) at our course that for several months during the late fall and all the way through the winter, become mushy, bare, mudball fests.
They are situated such that both their at the bottom/side of an arroyo and the shade from huge eucalyptus, etc, trees lining the fairways means for a far less than ideal turf condition.
You don’t need sand or a trencher, you need a chainsaw.
Sigh...
Should've mentioned that that is not an option.
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Can you use the arroyo as an exit for drain lines?
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Can you use the arroyo as an exit for drain lines?
Yes, but fairly certain we already have decent drainage.
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If drainage is good, then why sand cap? And, I have seen fw improve by topdressing and/or coring out and drilling in sand, usually reserved for greens. It takes longer, of course! Maybe even tilling up and loosening the soil may help drainage penetration. Pending soil tests, you might add sand or additives (although mixing sand and soil sometimes comes out like concrete.) There are also those slit tiles that do seem to help (at least for a while, until thatch covers up the sand and they slow down)
None are perfect solutions, but then again, neither is sand capping. It fits in a whole host of other "innovations" similar to wonder drugs, that turn out to not necessarily ease maintenance, but just cause different maintenance (which might also be a minor annoyance for those 2 holes.)
BTW, whether you cut the sand in, like a USGA green dish, or allow it to feather out, really, really changes the quantity of sand.
Like others have said, if you do it, you need under drains, in herringbone patter, adapted to the topo. You will probably end up adding a few catch basins for surface drainage. You probably won't need 18". If USGA greens drain at 12", why would you need more? 6-12", with most sand capped fw trending towards 6" for cost, unless it's water release curve needs more.
Also realize, the fw will probably block uphill side water from flowing naturally, and you may need some catch basins on the upper side of your fw, which is a good idea anyway. Never want a lot of water to cross a fw, much like road engineers cut swales on both sides of a road, so the pavement only needs to drain what falls on it.
Lastly, its a good time to redesign the fw. You should consider starting it further from the tee (which may necessitate new forward tees) and whether any specific hole needs the full 50 yards you propose, at least for the entire length of the fw.
Not sure you need irrigation as someone suggested. But, at a minimum you need to raise those heads! You will also find those two fw need more irrigation, at least in their formative years, so make sure your current or new irrigation controls allow these fw to be controlled on different stations than other holes.
In short, piece of cake!
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The real answer is significant tree removal. I just don't think that is in the cards. Oh well.
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Why not?
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I’m not certain, but believe I know the holes. Low area that stays in shade due to trees (not club property ) and in a low area surround by hills block the low winter sun
It’s also a cooler micro climate so is almost always heavy and damp.
When the Bermuda goes dormant and it gets wet, there was nowhere for the moisture to go but sit in the soil.
The creek and the fairways have been worked on in the past. When it rains heavy there is a lot of runoff from above the course and communities that can also overtop the banks
It’s a pretty tough spot. A natural drainage area that runs through the low lying course and out past the range
Of course, I made a huge assumption on the course. If I’m wrong,,,well
Never mind! :D
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Hi David,
I was on GC of a club not that far from you years ago and we did the equivalent of 4-5 fairways (I think) at 6" for around $1 million. I recommended 12", but we couldn't afford that. A really long time ago, I played Wade Hampton and they said they were going to spend around $1 million for a par 5 (with some additional work). I'm guessing they did 12" or 18" though.
Good luck!
Best,
Andy
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When I first got in the biz, circa 1977, people would howl when I joked that someday, we would have USGA fairway specs. And now.....
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I’m not certain, but believe I know the holes. Low area that stays in shade due to trees (not club property ) and in a low area surround by hills block the low winter sun
It’s also a cooler micro climate so is almost always heavy and damp.
When the Bermuda goes dormant and it gets wet, there was nowhere for the moisture to go but sit in the soil.
The creek and the fairways have been worked on in the past. When it rains heavy there is a lot of runoff from above the course and communities that can also overtop the banks
It’s a pretty tough spot. A natural drainage area that runs through the low lying course and out past the range
Of course, I made a huge assumption on the course. If I’m wrong,,,well
Never mind! :D
12 and 14. 12 isn't so bad except for up near the green and starting at about 130 yards out. 14 is just bad once we get any rain. Entire right portion of the fairway from the beginning of the fairway all the way to 60 yards short of the green.
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14 is a tough one.
Didn’t the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?
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Using some clues I think I figured out the course as well. Not seeing many options there, especially in winter when the sun sits lower on the southern horizon...
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Using some clues I think I figured out the course as well. Not seeing many options there, especially in winter when the sun sits lower on the southern horizon...
Exactly. That's the real problem.
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If I'm indeed looking at the right course...
Perhaps shift both segments of 14 fairway 10-15 yards to the left to reduce the amount of fairway on the wetter right hand side. But if the trees on the left can't be touched either...
Other than that, take the issue to the appropriate committee to put together a RFP?
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14 is a tough one.
Didn’t the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?
If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas?
IS the course name top secret for some reason???
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14 is a tough one.
Didn’t the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?
If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas?
IS the course name top secret for some reason???
I'll spill the beans. The course in question is Augusta National. Too many balls with "organic matter" on them at the Masters...
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8) Yeah and the barrrancas next to the arroyos down in GA ::)
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14 is a tough one.
Didn’t the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?
If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas?
IS the course name top secret for some reason???
I've only been a member three years and this is my first year on the greens committee. Just trying to keep a low profile.
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8) Yeah and the barrrancas next to the arroyos down in GA ::)
"Let's go to Tiger on 12. Oh no, that one has found Rae's Arroyo..."
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8) 8) 8)
Having been MIA and not seeing this query figures. Got some personal experience on this one!
We built Twisted Dune to sell the dirt to Atlantic City. The golf course was just the end product of the operation. Our 265 acre site was an anomaly for coastal South Jersey, just ten minutes from the beach but 70-90 feet to first water. Atlantic City needed millions of tons of fill to charge the H-Tract where the State was building the connector tunnel and selling the land surrounding it to Steve Wynn to build a spectacular new casino (or two). There wasn't enough fill in the area to service this need and was the genesis of our unusual project.
"Twisted" sold off millions of tons of fill to fund construction of the golf course, a reversal of the process Pete Dye used at Whistling Straits. Where they trucked it in we trucked it out. Our elevation changes came from digging down not piling up. In the process we supplied Atlantic City CC with 500,000 tons of fill to build up a bunch of the hole. These holes didn't drain and were often under danger from salt water intrusion from the inland waterway that is to the east of the club. The difference between the capping we are talking about and a massive infill is different, and perhaps Tom D will comment on his memory of that process. When we sold that first 500,000 tons of dirt to ACCC we were well on our way to my goal at Twisted Dune of having the dirt sales offset the costs of construction.
As usual I digress so back to the question. Our soils were perfect for building roads and charging the swamp where they built the Borgata and Tunnel but not so great as a growing medium or so I thought at the time. Because of that I couldn't resist capping our fairways with approximately 14-18 inches as we would unearth it during our mining process. To this day I'm not sure if it was the right decision. Even thought the price was infinitesimal for us compared to trucking it in, some of the drainage issues that still exist at times might be attributed my decision to cap the fairways. My amigo Don Mahaffey just outlined some issues involved in this process and as usual always is on point. As an aside I always read his answers to questions with great interest! His knowledge of all things c consistently teaches me. We are so fortunate to have him check in here at GCA.
Love this subject but getting sleepy> would love to explore the difference between capping and mass fills like we are currently seeing at the Union League (Dana Fry) and what Atlantic City (Tom Doak) did twenty years ago to protect the course from flooding. It also leads to a discussion of drill and fill processes on greens and whether our supers here think they work given the cost and invasive nature of same 8)
Great topic!
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Having played the not yet named course since the mid-70's, I know know the issues well. Big rains used to flood several holes on the course a couple hundred yards up from the 14th, and as the floodwater was released from the dam, it would saturate the low areas of the unnamed course. The huge Eucalyptus trees have always been on the surrounding properties , and even if the ones between 14 and 15 were chopped down, it wouldn't do much to improve the 14th fairway, since the creek flows on the opposite side along the property edge before crossing the fairway in the driving zone.
At Cedarbrook Club on Long Island in the fall of 1990, the new superintendent, who was young and very practical with a tiny budget, vertadrained the greens for his first aerification, and then did that in the swampy areas. After a couple of years of vertadraining, the swampy areas had vastly improved drainage.
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David being a member of a club that got rid of its greens committee 10 years ago, what does a greens committee actually do these days?
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David being a member of a club that got rid of its greens committee 10 years ago, what does a greens committee actually do these days?
As a member of the committee, I "serve at the pleasure of the chairperson who serves at the pleasure of the president." LOLZ
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14 is a tough one.
Didn’t the runoff get worse when they put the park and athletic area in off the right ?
If Pat_B's comment is true, why wouldn't you look at having an intercepter swale and drop box to carry surface run-on flows into an underground system and eliminate that input to teh water balance in teh subject areas?
IS the course name top secret for some reason???
I've only been a member three years and this is my first year on the greens committee. Just trying to keep a low profile.
Seem to recall that a certain Mr. Ball had some ideas on this very matter nearly 12 years ago. I think that he was a member of the green committee and the course, having a lot of upside, appeared to suffer from indifferent maintenance at that time- soft, spongy turf in many spots, a bit rough around the edges. I wonder if you are not seeing a cumulative effect over many years. The course didn't make an impression as being over-treed. As I told my host, it could be the type of club I'd enjoy being a member. If memory serves, he noted similar concerns re: the limitations of his role, i.e. speaking softly without the benefit of any stick. Maybe Jeff Brauer's new book provides some useful suggestions for a productive green committee.
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Lou is there such a thing as a productive greens committee? Course Managers / Superintendents are now highly trained professionals more than capable of managing their teams, balancing their budgets and producing sound business cases for projects, machinery purchase, etc.
My club got rid of the greens subcommittee when the course manager reported to the greens sub committee chairman (a dentist) who in turn reported to the new Secretary who happened to be a qualified greenkeeper. My understanding was the chair couldn’t answer any of the Secretary’s technical questions!
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Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.
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Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.
I agree--the good ones run interference for the Super so he can do his job without getting nitpicked to death by the "dentists".
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Tough to paint all greens chairman/committees with the same broad brush. The best are invaluable to their respective clubs.
Tim by doing what? That’s what I’m trying to find out? Our course manager produces newsletters, videos of work in progress, drone videos, etc showing us what’s being done and why. What there isn’t is consultation with the membership, the Board makes strategic course decisions based on the advice of the course manager and the architect and where necessary the agronomist. The course manager sets the schedule, height of cut, green speeds, etc.
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I’m with Mark on this. Scrap green committees (and clubhouse etc committees too for that matter). Golf clubs generally run despite their committees not because of them. Hire professionals and let them do their jobs without interference by butchers and bakers and candlestick-makers (and dentists!).
Atb
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I don't know about this. How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.
Ciao
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Mark C,
I generally feel as you do about committees as they tend to reflect the quality of the people who are drawn to such things (IMO, too often theorists vs. doers, well-meaning generalists who don't accept the limitations of their lightly acquired knowledge). Yet, a small group of experienced golfers, say 3-5, with time to devote to understanding the objectives of the club and the ability to check their egos at the door can serve a useful purpose as Sean and JM noted.
Though not necessarily or directly in the purview of the green committee, I am aware of a very upscale member-owned Texas golf club which discovered in the past year or so $millions missing from its accounts (the miscreant, lacking funds to make payroll, finally called a board meeting to surface the problem). Coming from a finance and accounting background, how the books were cooked for a few years without someone noticing is beyond my comprehension. It is a club which used a corporate management structure and its members were probably too busy to essentially manage its own management company. Hopefully its books were audited by a well-insured CPA firm and the members have some recourse.
A good green committee can serve to protect the deserving superintendent from the whims of the membership and the membership from an under-performing or crooked superintendent (e.g. if weeds or animal damage are rampant, yet the records show receipt and application of chemicals, a vigilant member may contact his counterparts at other area clubs to see if they're experiencing similar problems, and if not, start looking at the records themselves).
The committee can also serve to help modify plans and budgets to better address changes in conditions- e.g. if armadillos are going crazy after an ineffectual chemical application, instead of spending the budget for blowing clippings x/week, adjust to x-1 or 2 and maybe hire a pest control firm to handle the problem. Take some of the heat of an overburdened superintendent; give support to some of the necessary decisions that at times have to be made on the fly.
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I don't know about this. How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.
Ciao
Exactly.
I love my club and want to be involved. I also love golf and our little (slumbering) gem of a course and I want to see how we are using our limited resources there.
I joined the committee to first learn. We'll see what happens from there....
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8) and you don't think anyone will trace your gca.com postings? good luck on that
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8) and you don't think anyone will trace your gca.com postings? good luck on that
Doesn't really matter if they do. Just didn't necessarily want to broadcast it everywhere since I'm new.
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David,
You're other thread reminded me of this one. Given the course in question is not exactly a secret at this point, i'm curious if the club ever came up with a solution?
Kalen
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David,
You're other thread reminded me of this one. Given the course in question is not exactly a secret at this point, i'm curious if the club ever came up with a solution?
Kalen
Never happened. It's still a problem, but not one big enough that our (very fiscally conservative) club would be willing to spend $$$ on.
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The real answer is significant tree removal. I just don't think that is in the cards. Oh well.
The trees off club property and surround elevations likely eliminate those options ?
Been a tough couple areas out there for a long time
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I don't know about this. How does a club convey what it wants without some form of liaison? The staff must be answerable to someone so there needs to be a tool in place to do so. The issue is more about the lines of responsibility, not that there are club members acting as co-managers.
Ciao
Very late to this conversation but agree with Sean. Staff not only need to be accountable to someone but also should be working to an overall remit provided by the members. It's not for committee to micro-manage but instead provide an oversight role and where necessary deal with any issues as they arise.
Niall
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Lou is there such a thing as a productive greens committee? Course Managers / Superintendents are now highly trained professionals more than capable of managing their teams, balancing their budgets and producing sound business cases for projects, machinery purchase, etc.
My club got rid of the greens subcommittee when the course manager reported to the greens sub committee chairman (a dentist) who in turn reported to the new Secretary who happened to be a qualified greenkeeper. My understanding was the chair couldn’t answer any of the Secretary’s technical questions!
Mark
Why on earth would a committee be reporting to the Secretary, surely it should be the other way about ?
Niall
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8) ;D
We capped Twisted Due with indigenous sand that we dug up but wouldn't do it again. Our costs were minimal compared to bringing it in and doing all the work associated. This being said it was probably a waste of time for many of the reasons given by others . As usual , I'm all in with Mahaffey as usual , he's so smart about all things drainage.
Best to all , happy thanksgiving
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8) ;D
We capped Twisted Due with indigenous sand that we dug up but wouldn't do it again. Our costs were minimal compared to bringing it in and doing all the work associated. This being said it was probably a waste of time for many of the reasons given by others . As usual , I'm all in with Mahaffey as usual , he's so smart about all things drainage.
Best to all , happy thanksgiving
Indeed Dr. Mahaffey has a Ph.D. in the dark arts of drainage.