Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: William_G on October 26, 2020, 09:35:55 PM
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over twenty years in now at Bandon, it is undeniable the greatness in golf that Mike Keiser has achieved, yet let NLU introduce you or remind you again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efPdSuB0f0
golf mecca
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What a great video. Their production quality has gotten so much better. Easily the best golf content on YouTube.
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yes really well done video
looking forward to their course vids...all 5
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Old Macdonald video is being aired tonight at 8 EST
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Old Macdonald video is being aired tonight at 8 EST
I don't think Matt Ginella will be tuning into that one:
https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991
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Old Macdonald video is being aired tonight at 8 EST
I don't think Matt Ginella will be tuning into that one:
https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991 (https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991)
Crazy considering he named his child after the resort
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Old Macdonald video is being aired tonight at 8 EST
I don't think Matt Ginella will be tuning into that one:
https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991 (https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991)
Crazy considering he named his child after the resort
Oh, I assumed he got paid to do that.
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that is funny Mark!
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lots of great quotes in the vid!
"play sunup to sundown, 3 or 4 days in a row, never bored, not see the same shot twice"
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I've been following the NLU boys for years. As someone previously mentioned, their video production quality has only gotten better in that time.
I'm curious, when Mike Kaiser was asked about how he went about selecting the architect to build the first course at Bandon, he mentioned wanting to hire our beloved Tom Doak, but opted against it because he had the rep as being "Terrible Tom" at the time. Can someone here expand on what he meant by that? Was Tom known to be overly difficult to work with at the time and did the golfing press have a problem with him as well? I found Kaiser's statement rather odd considering Tom and Renaissance Golf are the authors of three courses there.
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Mike,
When you are the owner, many things are in play, nuff said.
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Old Mac
when looking at all 5 courses, much effort went into the template concept at Old Macdonald albeit under-appreciated by cheerleading and unstudied folks like Ginella who is as positive about Bandon as anyone.
In some ways you could say that Old Mac evokes those internal feelings of a sense of place like no other, as in the parting great shot of the Labryinth, awesome stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByX-wsH7MbE
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I’ve seen their videos in the past and thought they were ok. Since I lived in Oregon for many years and only have YouTube to watch here I started watching this series.
I was surprised how much Gearhart (Episode 2) had changed since I played there a few times in the 90s. It looks way better now. See it at [size=78%]https://youtu.be/bXYuDtLwCg4 (https://youtu.be/bXYuDtLwCg4)[/size]
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one of toughest stretches of holes at the resort can be 10-12 at Old Mac, "Bottle", "Road", "Redan"
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Great stuff last night with NLU's expose of Old Mac. Looking at that course from photos or Google Earth earth doesn't do it justice as video does. What an incredible and inspiring layout. Has just about everything a golf architecture aficionado could want. Congrats, Tommy! I can't wait to play it and your other courses there soon. :)
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Great stuff last night with NLU's expose of Old Mac. Looking at that course from photos or Google Earth earth doesn't do it justice as video does. What an incredible and inspiring layout. Has just about everything a golf architecture aficionado could want. Congrats, Tommy! I can't wait to play it and your other courses there soon. :)
great routing, and fantastically inspired golf holes
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Old Macdonald video is being aired tonight at 8 EST
I don't think Matt Ginella will be tuning into that one:
https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991 (https://twitter.com/MattGinella/status/1320831342322601991)
The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same. Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property.
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The consensus from the no laying up crew was the same. Pac Dunes and Old Mac the 4th and 5th ranked courses on the property.
That's interesting, because Big Randy said Old Mac was his favorite course at Bandon in Episode #4 (see the 5:45 mark), which isn't the same as saying Old Mac is the best.
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so here we are contemplating the least favorite course at Bandon thanks to MG, geez, I'd say he must be regretting that post, or at least I would as the cheerleader in chief for Bandon
very challenging times and difficult to stay positive these days hahaha
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That's interesting, because Big Randy said Old Mac was his favorite course at Bandon in Episode #4 (see the 5:45 mark), which isn't the same as saying Old Mac is the best.
If you havent listened, they had a 2 part podcast on the trip 3 weeks ago (eps 362 and 363) where they talk a lot about the courses. Some interesting takes.
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That's interesting, because Big Randy said Old Mac was his favorite course at Bandon in Episode #4 (see the 5:45 mark), which isn't the same as saying Old Mac is the best.
If you havent listened, they had a 2 part podcast on the trip 3 weeks ago (eps 362 and 363) where they talk a lot about the courses. Some interesting takes.
I'll check that podcast episode out, but I'll wait until after the Tourist Sauce season is over or at least the Bandon portion of it and compare what the general consensus is amongst the guys on that podcast episode and see how it stacks up to their commentary on each course on their Vlog.
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thank David, will do later today
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i just returned from BD travelling with a large group. I marvel at how well they operate. In five days I don't remember seeing a food or any other delivery and they push a lot of product out nor did I see mantenance underway on the course; they dont overcharge( $7 for pancake breakfast at the lodge).
Most of the fellow travellers did not place Old Mac on high on their list as I feared would happen; I had even sent this site's course review out to some of them in vain.
I sense that ranking the courses boils down to a personal style preference; most of these players are country clubbers and Trails is probably the closest thing to what they expect to see on a course so it got a lot of positives. I had previously preferred PD but after this trip and my second playing of OM I just truly feel a connection . The creativity of the greens and the refined use of wonderfully flowing features and the pacing are things that separate it for me.
BTW the NLU episode on Sweetens Cove is HILARIOUS and well worth the watch
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i just returned from BD travelling with a large group. I marvel at how well they operate. In five days I don't remember seeing a food or any other delivery and they push a lot of product out nor did I see mantenance underway on the course; they dont overcharge( $7 for pancake breakfast at the lodge).
+1. Even aside from the golf, Bandon separates itself from every high-end golf facility I've experienced by getting every little detail right, and delivering value. It's an expensive place to stay and play, but there's no nickel-diming and every dollar you spend returns something tangibly excellent.
Most of the fellow travellers did not place Old Mac on high on their list as I feared would happen; I had even sent this site's course review out to some of them in vain.
I sense that ranking the courses boils down to a personal style preference; most of these players are country clubbers and Trails is probably the closest thing to what they expect to see on a course so it got a lot of positives. I had previously preferred PD but after this trip and my second playing of OM I just truly feel a connection . The creativity of the greens and the refined use of wonderfully flowing features and the pacing are things that separate it for me.
BTW the NLU episode on Sweetens Cove is HILARIOUS and well worth the watch
This part of Ward's post gets me thinking about another thing that separates Bandon from other facilities in its class: the courses take risks rather than trying to appeal to everyone, resulting in more interesting debate and more varied personal preferences.
Consider Pinehurst. Everybody loves #2. People also like #4 and #8. And there are other courses located at the facility.
What's the most beloved course at Bandon, though? LOTS of people love Bandon Dunes, and LOTS of people love Pacific Dunes. There are probably fewer of us who rate Trails #1, but we're passionate enough about it and there are enough of us to at least make our opinion one worth engaging with and debating. Old Mac is probably the most polarizing of the original four and maybe the most fun course out there to discuss, given that people who have heard of Mackenzie Walkers tend to be awed by it while people who have never heard of a Mackenzie Walker tend to hate it because the greens are too big... that's the conversation I've had a half-dozen times since my visit last year, anyways.
Bottom line: the courses at Bandon take risks that won't appeal to everyone, but that will appeal to many and stoke passion for some. And that's WAY more interesting than, like, Kohler having one pretty unanimously heralded course, one that's pretty great but maybe a little too weird in the middle, one that's boring for 9 holes before getting excellent but pretty tough on the average resort player for 9, and one that's just weird AF.
And honestly, Kohler is probably the WORST example to use - it's not nearly as "try to please everybody" in ethos as most multi-course facilities, but it doesn't come close to Bandon in terms of willingness to get outside the box and risk being polarizing if it means building something that's special and unique and that creates real passion.
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i just returned from BD travelling with a large group. I marvel at how well they operate. In five days I don't remember seeing a food or any other delivery and they push a lot of product out nor did I see mantenance underway on the course; they dont overcharge( $7 for pancake breakfast at the lodge).
Most of the fellow travellers did not place Old Mac on high on their list as I feared would happen; I had even sent this site's course review out to some of them in vain.
I sense that ranking the courses boils down to a personal style preference; most of these players are country clubbers and Trails is probably the closest thing to what they expect to see on a course so it got a lot of positives. I had previously preferred PD but after this trip and my second playing of OM I just truly feel a connection . The creativity of the greens and the refined use of wonderfully flowing features and the pacing are things that separate it for me.
BTW the NLU episode on Sweetens Cove is HILARIOUS and well worth the watch
The one common factor in ranking the courses is the same person's opinion will change over time .. and then change again .. and again.
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what's super cool about Bandon is that most folks clearly remember every one of the 90 holes on the big courses and the 13 at Preserve, each distinct and unique
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I do replay them in my mind, on the range, constantly..... yes hitting off mats.
Tough to recreate the punch 5 Iron I hit into the wind on 18 of Pac Dunes from 125yds, but fun to play those holes during practice.
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William,
Terrific video, thanks for posting that. Brought back some great memories of both driving that stretch of highway and seeing the property for the first time when only BD and PD were there. Tough to beat the Oregon coast line on a beautiful sunny day!
P.S. I can't recall if it said it outright, but did Mike K fund the entire thing right from the start? Sounded like he went hunting for investor dollars and was laughed out of the room...
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thanks Kalen, probably right on that, it was a crazy thing really
bringing real links golf to America in Bandon? LOL
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+1 for both the NLU videos and podcasts (No Laying Up and The Trap Draw).
They more you watch and listen and understand the quirks of each guy, the more enjoyable they become.
Having never been to Bandon Dunes, NLU's videos really put the property and courses into perspective.
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+1 for both the NLU videos and podcasts (No Laying Up and The Trap Draw).
They more you watch and listen and understand the quirks of each guy, the more enjoyable they become.
Having never been to Bandon Dunes, NLU's videos really put the property and courses into perspective.
+2, beyond their Tourist Sauce series (which are tops) I've enjoyed Strapped and their Wild World of Golf events too
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In the depths of lockdown, I decided to watch the Wild World of Golf/Strapped.
Both series, in different ways, exceeded all expectations.
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In the depths of lockdown, I decided to watch the Wild World of Golf/Strapped.
Both series, in different ways, exceeded all expectations.
Those guys do a great job with their content, as does Erik Anders Lang.
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Those guys do a great job with their content, as does Erik Anders Lang.
Oooooh, hmmm… I think EAL was decent awhile back. Lately, hmm.
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Those guys do a great job with their content, as does Erik Anders Lang.
Oooooh, hmmm… I think EAL was decent awhile back. Lately, hmm.
Do tell....
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Do tell....
What's to tell?
I will say that DJ Piehowski of NLU used to work for EAL? There's a really long-running thread at NLU about how much people dislike EAL. I don't care much one way or the other. His podcasts tend to stink, IMO, and are more about him than the guests, or equally so. He doesn't care about score, but is constantly trying to break 90 or break 80 or telling people what his index is… I don't really care for his videography, or the janky walk-along video.
Beyond that, I don't care much about Random Golf Club or some of the other things that seem to bother some. I think Adventures in Golf was good, but that's a few years in the past now.
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Do tell....
What's to tell?
I like Erik. He didn't grow up in the game and we need people like that who are still just discovering it and come from a different perspective . . . that's the way to reach people who are just starting at golf.
I also thought that as an interviewer, he asked some great questions, instead of the same things that people in the business always ask me.
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He is definitely a polarizing figure on NLU.
Consensus seems to enjoy his old AIG videos and some of his podcast interviews, but the division begins to occur with the content/product placement during his rise to (relative) stardom.
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I totally get how EAL can be polarizing to some. Yes, he can come off as pompous at times, but his heart is truly in the right place.
As Tom said, he didn't grow up in the game yet has been a great ambassador for it by bringing a degree of "cool factor" to an otherwise stuffy pursuit to a generation of young people who may never have picked up a club had it not been for being introduced to golf through his videos.
That said, it never fails when I watch this EAL video that I am brought to tears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvrpfIoG18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvrpfIoG18)
This will be EAL's lasting legacy and gift to the game.
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Forwarded this to my dad and brother and it brought back so many memories of our annual trips around the country each summer together. I really liked DMK thoughts about why people love the course and what he is proud of said something to the effect, "There is nothing I'm not proud of here, it will be here for a millennia with my name immortalized. Golfers will come here to play and in the bar afterwards will talk about the golf course and their lifelong friendships, not one has left without a better friendship than they came with."
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listened to those podcasts, great stuff about Bandon etc...
the consistency of content between the vids and the pods is spot on
interesting take by Tron who is playing left handed as a high handicapper, while living his whole life as low handicap right hander
"low cap privilege" LOL
the course ranking at Bandon by these folks is evolving with multiple plays and trips to Bandon
there is on Sheep Ranch is spot on, despite not ever seeing the 1.0 version, also spot on their take on the uninspired logo
Pacific is dropping in all their preferred plays, and their realization that Old Mac had the worst piece of property is the truth
while they think Old Mac is their least preffered overall, they all still think it's one of the best courses in the world
definitely first world problems when it come to ranking the courses at Bandon LOL
good stuff by NLU
new vid out next week
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Can someone explain what MK was talking about on why he didn't hire Tom Doak for Bandon Dunes? It sounded like people would say he is a jerk??? What exactly was he saying? Not sure if it was tongue in cheek or inside joke I don't get.
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Can someone explain what MK was talking about on why he didn't hire Tom Doak for Bandon Dunes? It sounded like people would say he is a jerk??? What exactly was he saying? Not sure if it was tongue in cheek or inside joke I don't get.
"Mike Keiser says it was Doak’s first guide that caught his attention. “He confirmed for me what a lot of my friends and I were thinking,” he says, “which was, the old courses were better than the new ones.” In the late eighties, Keiser spent four years trying to find land to build his own golf course, and, not long after reading Doak’s booklet, he purchased the 1,200 acres on the Oregon coast that became Bandon Dunes resort. He knew he wanted to hire Doak but also knew he couldn’t have him build the first course at Bandon. “He was ‘Terrible Tom,’ and he wrote things like, ‘I don’t have to go see a Jack Nicklaus course to know it’s a 5’ ”—out of 10. “I just thought there would be too much controversy to use him as the first architect.” Keiser is referring to what was termed the “Doak Scale” in the booklet—and in subsequent hardcover editions of the guide. A 5 isn’t necessarily a bad score, but it also means one shouldn’t go out of their way to see a course. Nicklaus was and still is the most popular golf-course architect in the world, and he is golf’s greatest champion. Privately, many people thought his courses were merely serviceable, but no one said it publicly until Doak. Nor has he backed down from this or any other criticism."
Redefining the Green: Tom Doak’s Radical Minimalism (https://www.vqronline.org/profiles-articles/2017/07/redefining-green)
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Can someone explain what MK was talking about on why he didn't hire Tom Doak for Bandon Dunes? It sounded like people would say he is a jerk??? What exactly was he saying? Not sure if it was tongue in cheek or inside joke I don't get.
"Mike Keiser says it was Doak’s first guide that caught his attention. “He confirmed for me what a lot of my friends and I were thinking,” he says, “which was, the old courses were better than the new ones.” In the late eighties, Keiser spent four years trying to find land to build his own golf course, and, not long after reading Doak’s booklet, he purchased the 1,200 acres on the Oregon coast that became Bandon Dunes resort. He knew he wanted to hire Doak but also knew he couldn’t have him build the first course at Bandon. “He was ‘Terrible Tom,’ and he wrote things like, ‘I don’t have to go see a Jack Nicklaus course to know it’s a 5’ ”—out of 10. “I just thought there would be too much controversy to use him as the first architect.” Keiser is referring to what was termed the “Doak Scale” in the booklet—and in subsequent hardcover editions of the guide. A 5 isn’t necessarily a bad score, but it also means one shouldn’t go out of their way to see a course. Nicklaus was and still is the most popular golf-course architect in the world, and he is golf’s greatest champion. Privately, many people thought his courses were merely serviceable, but no one said it publicly until Doak. Nor has he backed down from this or any other criticism."
Redefining the Green: Tom Doak’s Radical Minimalism (https://www.vqronline.org/profiles-articles/2017/07/redefining-green)
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The NLU podcast folks also clearly point out the egregiousness of TD giving Pacific a 10 while giving Bandon Dunes a 7. LOL
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on to Pacific, great stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibk0F-KlxU&feature=youtu.be
what a beautiful site with 5 courses, just insane
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on to Pacific, great stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibk0F-KlxU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibk0F-KlxU&feature=youtu.be)
what a beautiful site with 5 courses, just insane
The last scene looks like it was pulled out of a big budget movie. Really impressed by this series, and I went in with high expectations.
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on to Pacific, great stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibk0F-KlxU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibk0F-KlxU&feature=youtu.be)
what a beautiful site with 5 courses, just insane
The last scene looks like it was pulled out of a big budget movie. Really impressed by this series, and I went in with high expectations.
yes the last scene was fanatastic and had all those birds flying by, so Bandon!!
I can tell it took some thought to get out to that beach, LOL
the last scene in the previous TS (Old Mac) was epic!
these guys are creating great golf content, fun
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yes the last scene was fanatastic and had all those birds flying by, so Bandon!!
I can tell it took some thought to get out to that beach, LOL
the last scene in the previous TS (Old Mac) was epic!
these guys are creating great golf content, fun
The last scene was borderline cinematic. It brought a tear to my eye. Overall, the footage from PD, music compilation and edits were superb! Arguably their best course vlog yet.
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exactly, I love Bandon, and sharing this season with family, friends, and/or employees, just makes my voice quiver and brings tears of joy in helping those understand my love from a very well done perspective, thank you to the TS crew
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On a separate note, for those who have played Pacific Dunes, was anyone surprised by Neil's critique of holes 14, 16 and 18 and or in agreement with some or all his opinions? Having never played there, I have no opinion. I'm curious as to what others who have played the course feel about those holes and others on PD they either love or have issue with.
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14- spot on, must land on small spot to have a chance when wind blowing
16- spot on, everyone ends up short right with lob wedge likely out of divot
18- not a bad hole, good finisher, must hit the shot on every shot
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8) Only been there once, for 4 days, for the opening of Old Mac, where I almost missed my tee time talking with George Bahto (well worth it in retrospect)...,.. very much enjoyed everything at resort, including the library, and we played Bandon Crossings also for a warm up. Definitely thought it a touch expensive, but hey, feeling the wind on your face, looking down those fairways, what could be better?
William_G how many times have you played there? Do they still call oldMac and BT the caddy killer day?
The links the NLU and TS were fun to watch, thanks... i don't normally go looking for such, but used to play a lot of Wolf games on buddy golf trips over the decades in N/S Carolina and TN/KY and Ohio...
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Steve, played there so many times, I have no idea
there are no killer courses for caddies at Bandon, just killer clients LOL
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On a separate note, for those who have played Pacific Dunes, was anyone surprised by Neil's critique of holes 14, 16 and 18 and or in agreement with some or all his opinions? Having never played there, I have no opinion. I'm curious as to what others who have played the course feel about those holes and others on PD they either love or have issue with.
I think the fact that they were playing in a strong wind day, even for Bandon, probably factored into this. But then again those are not uncommon conditions.
14 is a small landing area, but I don't think it crosses any lines. Just a lot tougher than you'd expect for a 140yd hole.
16 I've never really been a fan of despite much fanfare here, and I generally agree with Neil's thoughts.
18 I also agreed with the criticism, but it is still a beautiful hole. Just not the birdie chance you expect...
Personally holes 2-15 at PD is as good as it gets anywhere for me, and I love 17 as well. I love Neil's take on PD as the course BRINGS it for the vast majority of the round.
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agreed Alex
can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish
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I can dig the points Neil makes on 14/16/18.
14 works, as a hole, because it creates this awkward catch-22. Playing from high-point to high-point in a windy spot, you want to play a lower-flighted, piercing shot... but stronger players have to pull it off with a short iron or wedge. I like that conundrum, but it's definitely tough, especially with the north wind to a front pin.
And along the same lines, if there's a single thing about Pac Dunes I don't love, it's that it has a few more short and technical holes than I'd probably prefer, and not as many brawnier and more athletic holes. That's just personal preference - I admire the uniquely sporty character of the course, but I do like a fair share of "big" holes. And in a windy spot, it's almost nice to hit a few more approach shots with mid-and-longer irons, and a few fewer with wedges.
In that light, it's not surprising that someone might also criticize 16. But I also think he's complaining about his own lack of course management a bit there. Sure, that right side gathers balls left short. It's essentially a hazard in plain sight. But if that lanky whiny guy can score an eagle putt on that hole, nobody has any right to complain about getting stuck with a ticklish pitch.
I don't love 18. But I probably could use a few more plays. I'm not going to bitch about it in the same post where I complain that Pac Dunes might not have enough brawny, athletic holes. Really, it reminds me a bit of my home club's finishing par 5 - it's not especially charming (although it's very handsome), and it's not meant to be. It's a par 5 home hole where good play will yield a birdie putt, but not if you hit a loose shot along the way. I don't think it would be a better hole if it rewarded an indiscriminately bashed driver, for example.
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agreed Alex
can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish
We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17. Noodle that one for a bit.
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14 works, as a hole, because it creates this awkward catch-22. Playing from high-point to high-point in a windy spot, you want to play a lower-flighted, piercing shot... but stronger players have to pull it off with a short iron or wedge. I like that conundrum, but it's definitely tough, especially with the north wind to a front pin.
There are two winds at Bandon. The lower-flighted, piercing shot is an option in the winter, when the hole plays into the wind. But in the summer, anything low is probably going to run through. The shot when its downwind is a normal wedge (or other appropriate club) played to 10-15 yards short of pin high. The mistake most people make here is to take too much off the shot, not realizing the wind is going to knock the ball down a bit.
The other key factor is the premium on hitting a shot at the middle of the green. Often times folks will over swing thinking they need to crush the ball resulting in a pull or even worse a slice into the right bunker or short right (the miss here is always left).
Downwind, if you can hit a low iron relatively straight, its a pretty easy hole. But the tabletop aspect of the green and the way it looks like such a small target adds a good bit to the mental game.
Into the wind is a different beast. The slight push by the breeze to the left can create issues for anyone who over cooks a draw. And a holding fade has to be perfectly judged for distance.
Its a nice complement to 11 earlier in the round which plays in the opposite direction, with 11 having a bit more bailout room on the right.
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agreed Alex
can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish
We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17. Noodle that one for a bit.
more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha
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agreed Alex
can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish
We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17. Noodle that one for a bit.
My last two rounds at PD I had better looks on 17 than 18, but overall not too surprising: I just think it's about expectation. 17 is an intimidating and demanding par 3 in both winds. 18 is a par 5 and golfers' expectations will be that there ought to be a better chance at birdie, but I think disaster can strike on the drive when people are overeager to grasp at that chance.
I think 18 goes from a good to a great hole with more room right on the drive. The line of charm and bunker left make it a thrilling shot regardless, but the risk outweighs the reward with how tight the gorse comes in on the right. Taking the gorse out would allow people to play the thrills and not meet disaster if they're not perfect.
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Alex -
For those that the right gorse/tree line might be an issue, 3-wood is probably the play.
The better players in the caddie yard regularly hit 3-wood or driving iron (even from the Black tees) up the right side and still have a chance at getting on the green.
If you play to be short of the bunker, its a massively wide fairway. From there, the layup to the middle of the fairway is a relatively benign shot leaving a good look at the green in 3.
For most players (the average handicap we see is somewhere around 15), we're pretty happy if they keep their tee ball in play and don't dump their second shot into the hollow on the left or the bunkers off the fairway on the right.
Sven
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We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17. Noodle that one for a bit.
more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha
No offense, but I like the size of my sample group (and the range of skills) a bit more than yours.
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We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17. Noodle that one for a bit.
more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha
No offense, but I like the size of my sample group (and the range of skills) a bit more than yours.
hahaha, no worries
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I like these videos a ton, more so for the quality of the images and the way they translate the Bandon experience to those that might not have been here yet.
But I am not a fan at all of any of their analyses.
I'd be more interested in hearing the take of those that regularly see a course than those that drop by once in a while.
Give me the Pine Valley video done by Archie and his fellow caddies. Or a Pebble walk through by the loopers down there.
These are the guys that really know a course, and know how it stands up to the play of a wide variety of players.
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Sven,
Given your data points... how often do you see players, especially in a summer wind, end up in the divoted collection area on 16 just short of the green, facing a very difficult pitch up the hill to the green?
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Sven,
no doubt would have been great to get some caddie insight etc... on these vids
the critiques are all essentially first world problems, I mean it's Bandon, every course is great...nitpicking at best by these knuckleheads...
you are spot on the quality of the vids is awesome, love the drone stuff
more to come
glad you are well
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Sven,
Given your data points... how often do you see players, especially in a summer wind, end up in the divoted collection area on 16 just short of the green, facing a very difficult pitch up the hill to the green?
Kalen -
Anyone that can hit it up by the green off the tee usually ends up on the hillside, which has light rough. Still not the easiest shot in the world, as most players don't realize the ball is still going to run away from them once they hit the green.
Most of the people that end up where you are talking about do so because they duffed their second shot.
Its a 305-325 yard hole with a large fairway area to land in to give yourself a 100 yard shot into the green. And if you favor left on your second shot, the up and down from that side of the green is very doable Here, greed is not always good.
At this length, I think the hole does a great job of presenting a risk/reward opportunity.
Sven
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I only played it once, but I guess I got unlucky.
I knew enough about the hole before hand to know not to hit a driver up the right. So I hit a 5 wood up the left and saw it disappear over a large fairway rumple. When I got up there, couldn't find it anywhere, until I saw a ball down in the divot ridden area just short of the green 50-60 yards away from where I thought it would be....and that was it.
I then recall looking at the land forms and thinking it was a very large collection to a relatively small spot, which seemed to explain why it looked like a mini mine field.
Safe to say I had a helluva time getting it in the hole from there. In retrospect I should have played away from the green out to the left and pitched on to save par instead of trying to go for the green on the next shot.
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Alex -
The better players in the caddie yard regularly hit 3-wood or driving iron (even from the Black tees) up the right side and still have a chance at getting on the green.
If you play to be short of the bunker, its a massively wide fairway. From there, the layup to the middle of the fairway is a relatively benign shot leaving a good look at the green in 3.
Sven
possibly best to call 18 a second shot hole?
familiarity of play by the caddies in many conditions leads to improved success
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I only played it once, but I guess I got unlucky.
I knew enough about the hole before hand to know not to hit a driver up the right. So I hit a 5 wood up the left and saw it disappear over a large fairway rumple. When I got up there, couldn't find it anywhere, until I saw a ball down in the divot ridden area just short of the green 50-60 yards away from where I thought it would be....and that was it.
I then recall looking at the land forms and thinking it was a very large collection to a relatively small spot, which seemed to explain why it looked like a mini mine field.
Safe to say I had a helluva time getting it in the hole from there. In retrospect I should have played away from the green out to the left and pitched on to save par instead of trying to go for the green on the next shot.
How far do you hit 5-wood? Sounds like you (a) hit it too far to the right or (b) used the wrong club to lay up to the fat part of the fairway (100 yards out on the left side).
Or you just got a bad bounce, which can happen on links golf courses.
No shame in not being able to figure out the hole on your one and only play. Happens a lot.
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My 5 wood is usually 195-200. With a tail wind, I figured I get another 20 yards or so to put me in the ~100 left zone. It was definitely going up the left side, with a touch of fade per my normal ball flight.
I only recall this so vividly because as a shortish hitter its not often to have my ball end up so far away from where I'd expect it to be. And perhaps they've modified it since then, but it also really struck me how large the collection area was to end up in such a small spot.
P.S. One of my playing partners ended up a few yards away in another divot, but he went up the right so it was "expected".
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My 5 wood is usually 195-200. With a tail wind, I figured I get another 20 yards or so to put me in the ~100 left zone. It was definitely going up the left side, with a touch of fade per my normal ball flight.
I only recall this so vividly because as a shortish hitter its not often to have my ball end up so far away from where I'd expect it to be. And perhaps they've modified it since then, but it also really struck me how large the collection area was to end up in such a small spot.
P.S. One of my playing partners ended up a few yards away in another divot, but he went up the right so it was "expected".
Nothing has been modified on 16, other than possibly different mow heights in places.
After 15 holes you should have realized your 200 yard club could end up going 240-250 downwind and with bounce and roll on firm turf, especially so if you're a fader riding the left to right breeze on 16.
Your caddie would have, but I'm guessing you didn't have one.
You either go for the green on 16 (taking on the risk) or lay well enough back to leave yourself a full shot into the green from the left side. No one wants to hit a half wedge into that green.
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Pretty spot on analysis there, certainly agreed. I thought I was laying back far enough to hit a full 100 yard wedge, but mis-judged.
I definitely need to get back and I probably could afford a caddie now! ;)
P.S. 14 was my only birdie of the round, I landed my tee ball a few yards short of the green and it rolled to about 6 feet. Super easy! ;D
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Sven, were you working at Bandon when the NLU guys were there filming this summer and did you by chance caddie for any of them during their stay at the resort? Would be curious to hear your take on their games. LOL!
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Sven, were you working at Bandon when the NLU guys were there filming this summer and did you by chance caddie for any of them during their stay at the resort? Would be curious to hear your take on their games. LOL!
Mike:
I don't know when they were here. We've had a lot of press and instagram golf experts visit this summer. Seems like there's been a drone up just about every day.
Sven
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We've had a lot of press and instagram golf experts visit this summer. Seems like there's been a drone up just about every day.
Sven
I can't even begin to imagine how crazy it must get there during summer with all the Instagram and YouTube vloggers who frequent the resort and those courses. What I do know is that when I eventually make it out to Bandon, I'm requesting you as my caddie. ;)
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Sven, were you working at Bandon when the NLU guys were there filming this summer and did you by chance caddie for any of them during their stay at the resort? Would be curious to hear your take on their games. LOL!
Mike:
I don't know when they were here. We've had a lot of press and instagram golf experts visit this summer. Seems like there's been a drone up just about every day.
Sven
My son said they were at Bandon at the time of the US Am.
They seem to often take one of the later tee times of the day, because they seem to be finishing their rounds just before sunset. The late day footage makes the courses look fantastic. Also, I would guess their pace of play is little slow, although they have a person dedicated to filming; I think that is Panther Mike in the credits.
Their new drone footage is dynamite. Clearly 4K.
My son said they took a little flack in the last Tourist Sauce for focusing too much on their games, and they appear to have gone back to focusing on the courses, as in the past: Australia, Scotland, etc.
PS. My son is playing golf in Ft. Laud with the NLU guys as I type this.
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My son said they took a little flack in the last Tourist Sauce for focusing too much on their games, and they appear to have gone back to focusing on the courses, as in the past: Australia, Scotland, etc.
PS. My son is playing golf in Ft. Laud with the NLU guys as I type this.
I agree with your son's take on past Tourist Sauce series. I'm re-watching Tourist Sauce - Scotland as I write and agree that the episodes were more course oriented, as opposed to the focus being on the individual participants games. I'm envious your son is playing with them in Ft. Lauderdale. Lucky guy!
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The variety in memories and opinions is as fun to debate as the variety of shots you get to play at Bandon. Well, almost. I feel the NLU guys capture the feel for camaraderie amazingly well. I've only been once - and solo - and I look forward to my next trip with some pals.
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I spent a day at Northland while Tron Carter was filming this summer. I have no idea when the video will come out but I really enjoyed spending time with Tron and watching him try to play left handed. He clearly liked the course. He paid for a membership in between rounds.
He filmed my group in the morning but it was cloudy so I cannot imagine they will use any of the footage. The sky cleared late in the day so the combination of evening sunlight and Lake Superior should be amazing.
Rick Shefchik will likely get some airtime.
Trying to hit a shot with a drone swooping over your head is a strange experience. It felt like a fly was coming in for an attack.
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Tonight's NLU Tourist Sauce episode on Sheep Ranch is up on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnFKKOAcNhM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnFKKOAcNhM)
The number of ocean holes and infinity greens that dot the property is simply astonishing. However, my favorite features were the volcano green on #11 and the 15th green that was sandwiched between the rock-face to the right and ocean cliffs to the the left. The other fun aspect about that hole is the ability to put to the green from the forward tees. ;D
All in all another fantastically produced and enjoyable vlog. It just keeps getting better with them.
On a side note, I found it interesting that the key to making the property an 18 hole track from 14 was the challenge of incorporating the ravine into the layout, which apparently Coore and Crenshaw figured out how to do. I'm not sure if that was the primary reason they were awarded the project, but from Mike Keiser's comments is sounds as though it was.
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the orchestral music to lead of the episode is so appropriate
to hear the thankful and humbled Bill Coore is also so appropriate
Bill was all smiles all day on opening day which is now about 25000 in the past
congrats to TS and a great site for their show!
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Tonight's NLU Tourist Sauce episode on Sheep Ranch is up on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnFKKOAcNhM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnFKKOAcNhM)
The number of ocean holes and infinity greens that dot the property is simply astonishing. However, my favorite features were the volcano green on #11 and the 15th green that was sandwiched between the rock-face to the right and ocean cliffs to the the left. The other fun aspect about that hole is the ability to put to the green from the forward tees. ;D
All in all another fantastically produced and enjoyable vlog. It just keeps getting better with them.
On a side note, I found it interesting that the key to making the property an 18 hole track from 14 was the challenge of incorporating the ravine into the layout, which apparently Coore and Crenshaw figured out how to do. I'm not sure if that was the primary reason they were awarded the project, but from Mike Keiser's comments is sounds as though it was.
The green you are talking about is 16, not 15, and there is no rock face on the right. There is a gorse covered hill, but no rock face.
What ravine are you talking about. There really isn’t a ravine anywhere on the property unless you mean right of 11 which is off the golf course.
Sven
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The green you are talking about is 16, not 15, and there is no rock face on the right. There is a gorse covered hill, but no rock face.
What ravine are you talking about. There really isn’t a ravine anywhere on the property unless you mean right of 11 which is off the golf course.
Sven
Thanks, Sven. I was going off visual memory when I posted. As to your second point, watch the video from the 2:20 mark to about 3:25 where MK discusses having to negotiate the ravine to the right of 11 green that was necessary in converting the course from 14 holes to an 18 hole layout.
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thank you Sven :-*
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The green you are talking about is 16, not 15, and there is no rock face on the right. There is a gorse covered hill, but no rock face.
What ravine are you talking about. There really isn’t a ravine anywhere on the property unless you mean right of 11 which is off the golf course.
Sven
Thanks, Sven. I was going off visual memory when I posted. As to your second point, watch the video from the 2:20 mark to about 3:25 where MK discusses having to negotiate the ravine to the right of 11 green that was necessary in converting the course from 14 holes to an 18 hole layout.
Mike,
I think what Mike Keiser meant was that Coore and Crenshaw were the first to figure out how to build a 18 hole course without crossing the ravine. Other 18 hole routings for the land had required a ravine crossing which he didnt like.
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Sven,
What did you think of the NLU guys having Pac Dunes as the 4th ranked course on the property, worthy of 1 round on a 10 round Bandon trip.
Reasonable opinion?
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Mike,
I think what Mike Keiser meant was that Coore and Crenshaw were the first to figure out how to build a 18 hole course without crossing the ravine. Other 18 hole routings for the land had required a ravine crossing which he didnt like.
Ahhhhhhh.....................got it! Not knowing the property, I couldn't really figure out what MK meant when he was speaking about the ravine. All I know is that he didn't like the idea of having bridges to cross to get to a different parcel or section of the course. In my mind I took that to mean Coore and Crenshaw figured out a way to cross the ravine naturally without having to erect or build a structure to do so, but this makes perfect sense. Thanks!
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first world problems with ranking the courses at Bandon, they are all great
yet now with Sheep Ranch offering another ocean course per se, Pacific Dunes is dropping in my mind, yet it is still fantastic
like Mike K said during an interview by MG on opening day at Sheep Ranch, Mike said "if he could only play one of the 5 for the rest of his life, he would be very happy"
side note, my sense is that the visitors to Bandon this year are possibly a bit different as the lid is really off how great Bandon is combined with a Covid lockdown for international travel, What do you think Sven?
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new episode this evening
Trails I think
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Sven,
What did you think of the NLU guys having Pac Dunes as the 4th ranked course on the property, worthy of 1 round on a 10 round Bandon trip.
Reasonable opinion?
Nobody's asking me and I haven't seen Sheep Ranch (or played the Preserve for that matter)... but I kinda feel like there are no unreasonable opinions at Bandon.
Like, I had Bandon Dunes as the fourth best of the original big four, and not by a particularly close margin personally. But it's not insane to me that lots of people put it number one. They're probably not quite looking for the same things I'm looking for, but it's not an unreasonable take. It's an awesome golf course!
And likewise, I have Trails #1 there, but plenty of people put it 4th among the 4 I've played. They're wrong, but that's okay. No need to institutionalize them or anything. More space on the tee sheet for me.
The quality of golf at Bandon is almost preposterously good, and each course really has its own character that will endear it deeply to some while not quite hitting the spot for others. That's part of the magic for me - every other multi-course complex I can think of has a clear consensus ranking. I don't have any desire to even have a conversation with somebody who thinks #3 is the best course at Pinehurst. But regardless of how someone ranks the courses at Bandon, I'm excited to discuss the Why with them.
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exactly Jason, it is fun to discuss all the options at Bandon even with newbies who have not had multiple plays
PH, there is nothing really to discuss, it's moot
fun is what its all about
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Like, I had Bandon Dunes as the fourth best of the original big four, and not by a particularly close margin personally. But it's not insane to me that lots of people put it number one. They're probably not quite looking for the same things I'm looking for, but it's not an unreasonable take. It's an awesome golf course!
And likewise, I have Trails #1 there, but plenty of people put it 4th among the 4 I've played. They're wrong, but that's okay. No need to institutionalize them or anything. More space on the tee sheet for me.
Thanks Jason. At my first visit I thought Bandon Dunes was the fourth best as well, but in retrospect it maybe have been because it was the KP and I felt peer pressure to rank it that way. Kind of like I wouldn't want to go to a music critics' conference and admit that I think Yo La Tengo is way overrated.
After my second visit I felt that Bandon Dunes was far better than I originally thought. I still think it's the fourth best (having not played Sheep Ranch either) but I don't think the gap is as big as I originally thought. And I could make an argument that whatever its GCA chops it might be the most fun of the four to play. Thanks to your post I no longer feel embarrassed to say it. Maybe next I'll admit that I kind of like Dancing With the Stars.
I think Trails might be the best too but every time I play it, it really beats the shit out of me.
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Love Trails :-* :-* :-*
Great course, not on the ocean, but of the 5 certainly should not be missed
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Great episode. At the 3:08 mark I moved Trail to #1 in my rankings....and the NLU guys hadn’t even gotten to the first tee yet.
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The production quality has improved greatly.
Still not enough of the course(s) and far too much banter and frankly bollocks from the guys on screen who aren't particularly funny, nor good actors and seemingly aren't particularly good golfers either.
Take the presenters ego and vanity away and show more of the course(s).
Others producing similar material should do alike as well. Some already are.
Just my two-pence worth.
atb
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-thanks to these knuckleheads and their awesome drone pics and vid, more folks are seeing why anyone would "love" Bandon
-to play 5 great courses on video in 3 days all at Bandon only punctuates how Mike Keiser succeeded in bringing links golf to the US
-if you haven't been to Bandon, why not? or when?
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Sven,
What did you think of the NLU guys having Pac Dunes as the 4th ranked course on the property, worthy of 1 round on a 10 round Bandon trip.
Reasonable opinion?
David:
Sorry I missed the question earlier.
Personally, I don't agree with their assessment, but I'm not going to tell anyone what to think.
If you were to ask 10 guests, you'd probably get 10 different rankings. Some people are smitten by the Ocean, some like the isolation and definition of Trails. Some folks like firing at pins and having the greens hold, others prefer the firm turf of Old Mac.
The courses change daily. This time of year you might play Pac on a north wind day where the course is set up for that wind with pins in approachable and puttable spots. The next day you might get a gale from the south without the tees being adjusted, and the grounds crew may have put the holes in the high and dry locations. You're going to get vastly different opinions on the course depending on which day the course was played.
We have a starter out here who goes a bit overboard on his pre-round description of "his" course. Most talked about, most photographed, blah, blah, blah... My preference would be to send people on their way without the hyperbole and let them make up their own minds on the qualities of the course without the unnecessary guidance as to what they should think.
On back to back jobs a couple of years ago, at the same spot on Old Mac (the 16th fairway with the group having to take on the Alps), I had two completely different reactions:
A. The first group, faced with what for them was an impossible shot to get to the green in 2, let their frustrations boil over with statements that Old Mac was the dumbest course they had ever played. Didn't help anything that they were playing the wrong tees for their games.
B. Second group, seemingly befuddled for a bit as to where the green was, completely got and embraced the hole once they figured out what was being asked of them. The general reaction was that they couldn't wait to play the course again.
In short, I won't begrudge any guest's opinion that doesn't match my own, as there are a ton of factors that can go into how that opinion was formulated. I do have an issue with anyone with a platform telling others what to think, whether it be our starter or a group of vloggers.
Sven
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The production quality has improved greatly.
Still not enough of the course(s) and far too much banter and frankly bollocks from the guys on screen who aren't particularly funny, nor good actors and seemingly aren't particularly good golfers either.
Take the presenters ego and vanity away and show more of the course(s).
Others producing similar material should do alike as well. Some already are.
Just my two-pence worth.
atb
I understand your view, and agree with some of it. I'd love to see more of the courses they play in each of their "Tourist Sauce" videos, as that is the primary draw for me. Having said that, I'm not sure there is anyone doing the golf travel content better than they are. The “Tourist Sauce” seasons in Australia, California, and Ireland were terrific. I’m actually behind, and haven’t gotten to the Bandon courses yet in the Oregon season, but can’t wait to watch. I generally find the characters (mostly) likeable, and actually pretty funny, and the production is well done, and constantly getting better. As far as their play goes (which doesn’t impact my opinion of the show quality at all), they have one guy who is a solid plus handicap, and then four guys who range from 3 to 9 index. Of course, one of them is currently playing left-handed for a year, so his game might be a bit different at the moment.
While they aren’t for everyone, the NLU guys are extremely popular, and have a very loyal following, which continues to grow, both within their core demographic (millennials), and perhaps even more within the 40 and older crowd (of which I am part).
The NLU content is pretty wide-ranging, including heavy professional tour coverage, equipment, travel on a budget, and much more. Personally, I mainly stick to “Strapped” and “Tourist Sauce.” “Strapped” is their series where two guys visit a US city and stay/eat/play for 2-3 days on a $500 budget. They play municipal courses and other low-cost options, and typically meet various locals who work or play there. It’s as much a human interest series as it is a golf travel show, but I enjoy it. “Tourist Sauce” is obviously the bigger budget, buddies golf trip series, and my personal favorite. Much of their other content isn't for me (especially the deep PGA tour stuff), so I skip most podcasts and some YouTube stuff.
For courses and architecture, I listen to Andy Johnson on “The Fried Egg” podcast, and Derek Duncan on “Feed the Ball,” as well as “The Golf History Podcast,” which has some great stuff on the ODGs. I do wish there were better video content for courses and architecture, so any recommendations would be appreciated. Regardless, I’ll continue watching NLU as they travel to great golf destinations around the world. I can’t wait to hear their (seemingly controversial) views on the Bandon courses. My personal ranking of courses has changed with return visits, but if there was every such a thing as “no wrong answer” it is ranking those incredible courses.
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I might have said it before here, but the average GCAer should be very supportive of NLU and their position. They are extremely pro walking and also pro roll back for the ball. Those opinions are not always popular with "dreaded millenials", so if they can get more people hitting the course on foot and thinking the ball goes too far, it would only make this discussion board happier.
Brian's summary is on point. Few are more reasonable and entertaining when talking modern golf than these guys.
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It's okay for them to have an opinion of the courses, even if they're based on one play, and some of the opinions are skewed. Everyone gets to make the show they want to make.
In the early days posters here questioned whether Pacific Dunes was too easy to be considered great; NLU portrayed it as extremely testing because they played in a 30 mph summer afternoon wind. Sure, but that's pretty much true of any of the other courses there, except for possibly Old Mac because it has so much room.
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the TS stuff is easily their best thing going
their website and discussion board will be behind a paywall next year to help identify fake accounts/posts
can't wait for TS Bandon Dunes
thank you NLU, awesome stuff
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their website and discussion board is largely an uncivilized, unbridled dumpster fire, which appeals to their folks
How ironic, some people on that board would say the same about threads here.
FWIW, I am a member of both places, and more active on NLU's board.
Dumpster fire would likely more apply to the Foreplay group from Barstool Sports and their associated "fans."
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their website and discussion board is largely an uncivilized, unbridled dumpster fire, which appeals to their folks
How ironic, some people on that board would say the same about threads here.
FWIW, I am a member of both places, and more active on NLU's board.
Dumpster fire would likely more apply to the Foreplay group from Barstool Sports and their associated "fans."
where is the dumpster fire here? please tell
seems more like a riot over there
what's your name on NLU? we should look you up, fun stuff
have you read the stuff posted on the message board on NLU...cray cray
respectfully
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Gotta agree with William here...
I've been on chat boards/groups for 20+ years across various topics and genres, and GCA is by far and away the most civil despite some occasional shortcomings. I give Ran all the credit in the world for keeping this site free from bad behavior and advertising that infects nearly everything else.
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NLU should be applauded for the TS stuff, the music, golf. interviews, drone stuff are fantastic
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TS Bandon Dunes up tomorrow, how will they go out of Bandon?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXMPIUmxnVc
thank you everyone for showcasing Bandon, Oregon
great stuff
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NLU Podcast 381 is very good with DMK going in depth on Bandon Dunes
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8) NLU better focus on quality content, because I see they only have 69k youtube subscribers, while the gm_golf kids have 364k subscribers...
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8) NLU better focus on quality content, because I see they only have 69k youtube subscribers, while the gm_golf kids have 364k subscribers...
NLU seems to be doing well with their podcasts and other avenues as well and I hope they continue, but while we're on the subject of millenial / Gen X golf influencers...
I'm really encouraged by what's out there! And the success of GM Golf (or Good Good which is their collab channel) seems to be a really good thing for golf in my eyes. Their brand is all about making golf fun, it's clean (no cursing), and they seem to really connect with young people new to the game. Glad to see George Bryan and Kyle Berkshire crossing over with them too as I think they create compelling and FUN content too.
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8) Alex,
Totally agree. Vid's of friends playing golf and having fun has to bring more and more participants, young and old to the sport. I still play each summer with friends met when 9 yrs old at muni next to where I grew up... game for a lifetime indeed!
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They also visited Bandon Crossings. I enjoyed getting a chance to see it, personally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJTrLWxfopg