Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tommy Williamsen on September 24, 2020, 10:17:38 AM
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I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.
https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020
I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.
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I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.
https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020 (https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020)
I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.
Don't like the rule.
Walking back certainly slows the game in competition.(Have yet to play in an event where the 2 stroke local rule is enacted)
Unintended consequences unfortunately rule the day.
It becomes quite slow when a savvy competitor learns not to start the search until all players in his group are available.
Rather than playing their own ball while an individual begins the search, players now wait until all balls are found as 3 minutes goes fast if you begin the search by yourself.
I've had officials deter my caddie(who is out front) from starting a search until all players and caddies arrive, to increase the odds of finding it in the 3 minutes.
previously he would've found it and had the yardage available upon my arrival.
Never heard of that before with 5 minute rule.(time could easily expire if caddy starts search before you arrive-ultimately it slows down play in higher level(no 2 shot drop option)competition by freezing caddie from starting search until help arrives.
IMHO. over the course of a competitive round, it SLOWS play, by delaying the START of a search.
There was way too much other low hanging fruit to go after rather than the 5 minute search rule-if they truly wanted to speed play.
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It was enacted to compensate for not enforcing the 40 second rule.
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It would be massively disappointing if the powers that be don’t have other far more pressing items at the top of their agenda for discussion/action. By comparison this is small fry.
Indeed I see no reason to change it at all even more so as the incident that highlighted the matter was essentially caused by the USGA themselves with their narrow fairways surrounded by 5” heavily watered rough.
Cut a lot more grass to shorter fairway height and if in doubt play a provisional.
Atb
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The change from five to three minutes, at least to me, is less significant than the option of dropping and taking a two stroke penalty when a ball is "unexpectedly" OB or lost. The option for casual play, and the ability of the committee to adopt if for tournament play, is vastly preferable AND quicker than the "walk of shame" back to the tee, regardless of the allotted search time. And practically speaking, a ball that hasn't been found in three minutes isn't a great bet to be found in five, and there has to be some time limit, after all.
The Carolinas Golf Association has adopted this option for most, if not all, of it's competitions, including interclub matches and most tournaments, though I am not sure about the highest level tournaments. The rule is administered by dropping two club lengths INTO THE FAIRWAY at an agreed upon point (similar to a lateral hazard drop) with the two stroke penalty applied. It nets out to the same number of shots as stroke and distance, with the added advantage of less risk, since the player might have hit either the provisional ball or the second ball after returning to the tee into a similar or worse condition. In fact, many players are foregoing provisional balls entirely for exactly that reason, so play really does speed up.
Summer in the Southeast has been a laboratory for growing Bermuda grass, and maintenance crews simply haven't been able to keep up with mowing. It isn't uncommon at all to KNOW to a certainty that your ball landed just a few yards from the fairway, and yet not be able to find it in the allotted time. The drop option is a great thing in those conditions.
Of course, that isn't really pertinent to a US Open, or any Tour level event; the answer at Winged Foot would have been rough of a more reasonable length, which might have added excitement to the final round, too, from players being able to do more than just struggle for pars. But that's another argument entirely.
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In the second round of the Carnegie Shield (hackers flight) last year, I was playing with tow partners who, like me, stood no chance of qualifying. It was cold, it was tipping down with rain and there was a gale blowing. We stood for 12 minutes (at least, that's from the time I first looked at my watch) whilst the group in front looked for a ball on the left of 14. I suspect the 3 minute rule is the most frequently ignored rule in golf.
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Three minutes sucks. It’s so fast. It’s not enough time for such a severe consequence. And it does nothing to improve pace of play; if you fall behind because you search for five minutes, you inevitably make up any small gap that might’ve been created. Bring back five.
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I just read an article by Gary van Sickle declaring a reboot for the rule.
https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020 (https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-09-23/these-2-revised-rules-could-use-another-ruling?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Read+09-24-2020)
I like the new ruling. It does speed up play. If there is a culprit it is five inch rough.
Don't like the rule.
Walking back certainly slows the game in competition.(Have yet to play in an event where the 2 stroke local rule is enacted)
Unintended consequences unfortunately rule the day.
It becomes quite slow when a savvy competitor learns not to start the search until all players in his group are available.
Rather than playing their own ball while an individual begins the search, players now wait until all balls are found as 3 minutes goes fast if you begin the search by yourself.
I've had officials deter my caddie(who is out front) from starting a search until all players and caddies arrive, to increase the odds of finding it in the 3 minutes.
previously he would've found it and had the yardage available upon my arrival.
Never heard of that before with 5 minute rule.(time could easily expire if caddy starts search before you arrive-ultimately it slows down play in higher level(no 2 shot drop option)competition by freezing caddie from starting search until help arrives.
IMHO. over the course of a competitive round, it SLOWS play, by delaying the START of a search.
There was way too much other low hanging fruit to go after rather than the 5 minute search rule-if they truly wanted to speed play.
the same thing happened with the 5-minute rule in effect.
The two US Open searches could have been caused by lack of spectators seeing the ball. Harris English search seemed to be in an open area of high rough where later TV showed ball flight hitting trees.
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The 3 minute rule has done as much to speed up play as the grove rule did in ensuring players clubbed down from the tee to ensure they hit more fairways in order to get fewer fliers.
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The 3 minute rule has done as much to speed up play as the grove rule did in ensuring players clubbed down from the tee to ensure they hit more fairways in order to get fewer fliers.
Ouch :D
Was the groove rule Mike Davis's doing? I remember he tried hard to sell it as a "first step" toward fixing the problem. I don't remember anyone else being so optimistic about its effect.
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You can look for a lost ball for 3 minutes but you can walk all the way to the green see where the pin is and walk back and play the shot. Makes sense........
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Three minutes sucks. It’s so fast. It’s not enough time for such a severe consequence. And it does nothing to improve pace of play; if you fall behind because you search for five minutes, you inevitably make up any small gap that might’ve been created. Bring back five.
Completely agree.
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The 3 minute rule makes no odds for casual play. What happens on TV doesn't matter. For local comps it's very easy to use the drop rule after a lost ball. All it takes is a player to say right, 3 minutes up. This rule is like any other, takes golfers to enforce it. What is really the issue is that increasingly golfers do not want other golfers to have the power of rules enforcement over their game. There is an increasing distrust among golfers to be fair and impartial with each other. Competitive golf at these inconsequential levels has become far too serious. It's one reason I dislike official comps.
Ciao
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The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.
Niall
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The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.
Niall
Niall,
Again, I'm no fan of DeChambeau, but he didn't use a strategy for playing WF that was any different than the rest of the field. He didn't lead the field in driving distance (7th), even though he led the Tour by a wide margin coming in, and his percentage of fairways hit ranked 26th. He averaged three fewer fairways hit per round than the leader, and hit ONE less fairway than Zach Johnson for the entire tournament. It's worth noting that Brendan Todd, who led the field in driving accuracy, hit just less than two out of three fairways for the tournament. In short, those were hard fairways to hit...
If anything, DeChambeau's advantage over the field appears to be his ability to play shots out of the rough; nobody was especially good at avoiding the rough. And DeChambeau's strokes gained numbers reflect this; he was better on approach shots AND around the greens than he was off the tee in strokes gained, with putting only slightly behind off the tee.
In short, he had an extraordinary week in pretty much every respect, and was able to take great advantage of his physical strength; not so much in terms of bashing tee shots as far as he could, but in terms of playing shots out of the rough that nobody else could play as well. In that regard, if the USGA had been trying to find a setup that rewarded what DeChambeau has done to his body, they succeeded completely, but not because of any strategy he would have changed if little old men with white flags hadn't been on the scene.
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Was getting ready to reference those same DeChambeau stats. He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.
On the 3 minute vs 5 minute rule - I think casual followers would be surprised how often players on the pro tours hit provisional balls, regardless of the permitted search times.
Michael
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He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?
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He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?
Tiger had 34 wins (8 majors) at the age of 27 and i'm guessing Jack was similar... so I wouldn't put BDC anywhere near Tigers or Jack's class either, even if they do share a rare win combination.
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He's a gifted player who wins when he putts well, but the rest is a marketing balloon. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not to sidetrack, but he's won an NCAA, US Am, US Open, and 6 other PGA Tour events at age 27. So like, huh?
Kalen,
Your
Tiger had 34 wins (8 majors) at the age of 27 and i'm guessing Jack was similar... so I wouldn't put BDC anywhere near Tigers or Jack's class either, even if they do share a rare win combination.
Kalen,
For at least the third time on this thread alone, I'm no fan of DeChambeau; quite the contrary, in fact.
But he's now one of THREE guys ever to win the NCAA, US Am, and US Open, and your hesitancy is that he isn't Jack or Tiger by age 27?
Guess what? Nobody else is or was, either! The number of great players who aren't Tiger or Jack is, well, everybody. Including Arnie, Lee, Gary, Nick, Bobby, Walter, Tom, and a LOT of others.
Let's try to be a bit realistic here.
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AG,
I was only agreeing with Micheal that yes he's gifted and now has a trio of 3 specific wins that puts him in a tiny group with Jack and Tiger.
But with all the hubbub we've been seeing lately on the golf telecasts, golf channel, and web chat otherwise you'd think he's been crowned as golf's next revolutionary/trend setter to be duly anointed and promoted to the halls of the elite. If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories.
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The rules of golf should be more about casual or club golf rather than what the pro's do (or get away with). Indeed make the pro's play under the same conditions. I wonder whether Bryson would have used the same strategy at the US Open if there weren't any ball spotters on the course and he had 3/5 minutes to find his ball in the rough. It would have been nerve shredding at least I'd imagine.
Niall
Niall,
Again, I'm no fan of DeChambeau, but he didn't use a strategy for playing WF that was any different than the rest of the field. He didn't lead the field in driving distance (7th), even though he led the Tour by a wide margin coming in, and his percentage of fairways hit ranked 26th. He averaged three fewer fairways hit per round than the leader, and hit ONE less fairway than Zach Johnson for the entire tournament. It's worth noting that Brendan Todd, who led the field in driving accuracy, hit just less than two out of three fairways for the tournament. In short, those were hard fairways to hit...
If anything, DeChambeau's advantage over the field appears to be his ability to play shots out of the rough; nobody was especially good at avoiding the rough. And DeChambeau's strokes gained numbers reflect this; he was better on approach shots AND around the greens than he was off the tee in strokes gained, with putting only slightly behind off the tee.
In short, he had an extraordinary week in pretty much every respect, and was able to take great advantage of his physical strength; not so much in terms of bashing tee shots as far as he could, but in terms of playing shots out of the rough that nobody else could play as well. In that regard, if the USGA had been trying to find a setup that rewarded what DeChambeau has done to his body, they succeeded completely, but not because of any strategy he would have changed if little old men with white flags hadn't been on the scene.
AG
I'm DeChambeua neutral and was only using him as an example. But it's the same for the rest - how different would there approach be if they had to look for their own balls under the 3/5 minute time limit ?
It might make no difference or they might send their caddy up ahead but they just might not be so cavalier hitting the ball into long grass.
Niall
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If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb
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AG,
I was only agreeing with Micheal that yes he's gifted and now has a trio of 3 specific wins that puts him in a tiny group with Jack and Tiger.
But with all the hubbub we've been seeing lately on the golf telecasts, golf channel, and web chat otherwise you'd think he's been crowned as golf's next revolutionary/trend setter to be duly anointed and promoted to the halls of the elite. If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories.
Kalen,
My bad; we agree completely. I am far from ready to see ANY of what DeChambeau is doing, from equipment to workouts to diet to the swing itself, as the next wave of golf. Given that he had already won the NCAA and the US Am, as well as on Tour, it's a little early to assign cause and effect for the US Open win.
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"If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories."
Kalen -
I pains me to see Bo Jackson's name connected in any way to Bosworth and Lin. He was an extraordinary athletic talent who achieved at a high level in two sports during his too brief career. The other two accomplished nothing that was even remotely close.
It remains to be seen what long-term impact Bryson DC will have on the game. But his talent and achievements to date cannot be doubted or denied. 7 wins and a major in his first 4 years as a pro is very impressive. I suspect there will be more of each over the next 5 to 10 years.
DT
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"If I had to guess, he'll wind up being closer to the flavor of the month when its all said and done, more in the Bo Jackson, Brian Bosworth, or Jeremey Lin categories."
Kalen -
I pains me to see Bo Jackson's name connected in any way to Bosworth and Lin. He was an extraordinary athletic talent who achieved at a high level in two sports during his too brief career. The other two accomplished nothing that was even remotely close.
It remains to be seen what long-term impact Bryson DC will have on the game. But his talent and achievements to date cannot be doubted or denied. 7 wins and a major in his first 4 years as a pro is very impressive. I suspect there will be more of each over the next 5 to 10 years.
DT
The word "extraordinary" for Bo Jackson is probably the best we can do, but it isn't enough. He was unique, and the ONLY person every to be an All-Star in two professional sports. Heisman Trophy winner who spent less than a season in the minors before becoming a an MLB player, was an MLB All-Star starter by his third season, and averaged over 5 yards a carry as a part-time running back in the NFL. I can't think of anybody that really approaches that level of excellence in two sports. He was one of those guys that you just couldn't take your eyes off of if he was playing; it was like everybody else on the field was just there. Oddly, one of the things I remember most vividly about him was seeing him, after a strikeout, turn and snap the bat over his knee on the way back to the dugout without ever breaking stride. I had never seen anything like it.
And I agree fully with your greater point about DeChambeau's career. Had he not won the Open, and had he not become such a physical oddity in the last year, his career trajectory would still be impressive to say the least. If you project his current career win rate out until, say 35-40 years of age and nothing else, it's easily a Hall of Fame career.
As much as I don't like him, there is NO reason to believe that he wouldn't have been able to win a major without the added bulk and length, and every reason to believe that he would have been a VERY good bet to do so. All of that has gotten lost in the noise of what he's done to his body, but it's a fact.
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can we get this back to the title. There are a number of other subjects threads on BDC
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can we get this back to the title. There are a number of other subjects threads on BDC
Right! Has the smoke from coastal fires wafting across the country been seeded with a BDC obsession bacteria?
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As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.
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As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.
The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
In a competitive stroke play event,Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra 2 minutes is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.
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As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.
The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]
I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.
Ciao
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As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.
The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]
I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.
Ciao
Wrong thread.
This is the one about RE:Three Minute Time Limit for Lost Balls.
pLenty of other threads correctly supporting your position available for comment.
As I said, play by whatever rules you want, but in an actual stroke play event, the clock meticulously starts when you begin your search and any group I play in (in an event)checks their phone/watch for when the search begins.Often there is an official on the scene doing the same.
I've seen FAR more lost balls the last 2 years in my group in professional events than any other time, and I have found someone's ball AT LEAST THREE times after they had called the search (after 3 minutes) and were on their way to hit their provisional or walk back.In at least one case I was looking for mine on one side and didn't participate until the last 30 seconds after finding mine and playing out. 2 1/2 minutes(rather than 30 seconds) of multiple people looking would helped that player out, and ultimately taken less time.
Plenty of low hanging slow play fruit-this was a poor rules change.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
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As someone who has lost a lot of balls over the years, they are rarely found in the last two minutes. Since amateurs almost never return to the tee, it will speed play. Maybe they have an argument for tournaments without galleries, but that's a tiny minority of all the rounds played in the US each day.
The same amateurs that "never return to the tee" spend waaaay more than 3 minutes looking for balls, and take liberties with every other rule.I'll never understand rules changes for people that don't play by the rules anyway.
Three minutes goes crazy fast when the first 2 minutes are by yourself(while others hit), and you suddenly need more than one set of eyes. That extra to is HUGE when suddenly 3 or 6 people are looking.
But as I said, the unintended consequences kick in and savvy players wait until everyone's available, further slowing play.[size=78%] i[/size]
I am bs on this Jeff. Have we all forgotten about letting groups through? Its a very weak culture in the US and THE is turning the same way. When I first went to the UK there was a strong culture of allowing groups through after maybe 1 minute of searching if a group was waiting. That culture, while I found odd at first, but soon greatly appreciated has deteriorated very badly. Slow play is a learned and often cultural habit/norm. If golfers weren't so selfish in worrying about their crap score either way, it wouldn't make any difference (as if effectively the case) with a 3 or 5 minute rule. All this talk is typical, on the edges of the issue with no hope of properly addressing the real issues. The bottom line is golfers are far too concerned if they score 79 or 82. Honestly, it's idiotic and this is what handicaps create, a false sense of of the quality of one's game.
Ciao
Wrong thread.
This is the one about RE:Three Minute Time Limit for Lost Balls.
pLenty of other threads correctly supporting your position available for comment.
As I said, play by whatever rules you want, but in an actual stroke play event, the clock meticulously starts when you begin your search and any group I play in (in an event)checks their phone/watch for when the search begins.Often there is an official on the scene doing the same.
I've seen FAR more lost balls the last 2 years in my group in professional events than any other time, and I have found someone's ball AT LEAST THREE times after they had called the search (after 3 minutes) and were on their way to hit their provisional or walk back.In at least one case I was looking for mine on one side and didn't participate until the last 30 seconds after finding mine and playing out. 2 1/2 minutes(rather than 30 seconds) of multiple people looking would helped that player out, and ultimately taken less time.
Plenty of low hanging slow play fruit-this was a poor rules change.
Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. 3 or 5 minutes makes no odds. If people are on the tee waiting for a ball to found, they should be called through. It's that simple. Back in the day folks would see someone is waiting and just get on with it. Yet another reason why Stableford makes far more sense to use for comps.
Ciao
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
Thomas,
Whether or not a provisional was played doesn't change the fact that a player is going to look for the first ball; the difference is two strokes, which is huge in a competition, and that assumes that the provisional is in good shape. And the issue of whether or not the player hit a provisional is a different issue from the issue of whether the search should be 3 minutes or 5 minutes; if the player has to return to the tee, that takes as long as it takes, regardless of how long the search prior to that was. I think we all agree that we SHOULD hit provisionals; the Walk of Shame back to the tee is to be avoided at all costs. But we also all know that there are blind shots, heavy rough, etc. that cause balls to be unexpectedly lost or OB. That's golf.
I've played quite a few tournaments since the rules change, and I have to say that the change from 5 to 3 just hasn't seemed impactful to me, even in competition. In MOST cases, it seems to me that the ball is found within 3 minutes or not at all, and certainly not in a playable condition. I'm sure there have been situations that I'm not recalling where the ball was found in the next two minutes, but that happened when the limit was 5 minutes, too.
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if followed religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
Jeff,
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the Carolinas Golf Association has adopted the two-stroke penalty drop as a local rule for most of its competitions, at least below the highest level of qualifiers, championships, etc. So I've played a bunch of senior four balls and interclub matches with that rule, and the issue that you raise has really not seemed to be a problem.
It isn't really any different that determining the point where the ball crossed the margin of a penalty area, which is often not completely clear from the tee. OB seems to work exactly the same, and while an unexpectedly lost ball is problematic, that also isn't a lot different than a ball that ended up in a hazard that was blind off the tee.
And because the drop is taken two club lengths INTO THE FAIRWAY from the point determined by the group, it is often a better option for the player than even hitting the provisional, since you'd be lying three, hitting four either way IF you hit a good provisional into the fairway (a large "if"!) much less returning to the tee, both of which DO speed up play.
I doubt it's ever going to be used at the highest levels of play, nor should it be, but even for competitions below the highest level, it seems to work as well as any other drop works. I'm a fan.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.
Ciao
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.
Ciao
If you are trying to find a ball within the 3 minute limit it makes no sense to keep playing unless you aren't interested in helping him find his ball in time.
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if you won't help search for my ball I definitely won't help search for your ball.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
Somebody should always be playing. It's crazy to stop the game and have all golfers looking for a ball. Keep playing and switch out searchers.
Ciao
If you are trying to find a ball within the 3 minute limit it makes no sense to keep playing unless you aren't interested in helping him find his ball in time.
You do help look, but one player is always hitting. Just switch out searchers. Most of the time the ball is found before much switching out occurs. There doesn't need to be a 100% player search until the others have hit. Everybody looking for balls slows down golf more than a 3 or 5 minutes rule. I learned this system early on in GB&I from guys who cared about quick play and not holding up those behind. It works, try it.
Ciao
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"Shall we compromise on 4 minutes?" said a smiling Dr Kissinger to Lord Carrington as they sat in large leather chairs overlooking the first tee at Royal St Donald's GC and watched through the window as a fourball with caddies searched for balls in the 5" immaculately groomed rough.
"Splendid idea" replied a chuckling Lord Carrington. "Care for another drink?"
atb
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I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.
30 years ago the US Open was being won by Curtis Strange, Scott Simpson, Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin - the shortest and straightest hitters on tour.
Nowadays the US Open is being won by Bryson de Chambeau, Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooms Koepka - the longest power players on tour.
The fairways hit stat might be the same but the game has done a 180 degree turn as to the skills required to win the US Open.
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On a course like Winged Foot someone is looking for a ball on many holes. Three minutes is enough.
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Turn it around. A lost ball is the result of a bad shot. Why should the rest of the field in an event have to effectively be penalised because someone else hit a bad shot and gets lots of time to find their ball?
If in doubt play a provisional.
atb
I do NOT believe, though, that it is an especially significant way to speed up play, even if follower religiously. Two minutes a couple of times a round just isn't significant. I am, however, a BIG fan of the new rule for casual play of allowing a drop with a two stroke penalty instead of a return to the tee, which can also be adopted as a local rule for competitions; that one really can speed up play, because it is a better option in a lot of cases than even hitting a provisional, much less going back to the tee.
Nailed it.And with the old 5 minute rule, we all almost always hit before we came over to search.
Now, we look first.
The casual play rule is good as well. I wish they could come up with a slight tweak to make such a rule for ALL play, but it is SO subjective(where it was lost and 2 shots is a lot if you are way back(duck hook) and could do better with a provisional) unlike a penalty area where there is a line you can identify where it crossed.
It feels to me like they ended up with a half-measure change, partly because the "right" answer may be different for competitive and casual play.
Even though, as you say, many casual players play by their own rules, I do see a benefit for having the shorter search period as the baseline on paper. Even if they're not going to actually use a stopwatch, "I have five minutes to look" feels different/less urgent than "I have three minutes."
I’m not a competitive player, prefer to walk, and find myself with a mysteriously/surprisingly lost ball (thus no provisional) more often than I’d like. I’ve always been annoyed by the tension of either 1. walking back and making an already slow course slower or 2. taking a drop not allowed in the rules. I’ve generally felt that option 2 was clearly the right decision, but it still felt a bit dirty. The 2-stroke local rule is to me a no-brainer, and long overdue.-Alan
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::) ???
Every week someone breaks this rule in my group, and unless you are a dick no one tends to say anything unless its a tournament. Then there tends to be a fight as to how long they were looking. I would change the lost ball rule to a one shot penalty and drop where the group agreed it was last seen.
If no consensus can be reached then it's players call, sure to cause even better melees LOL
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If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb
Exactly. This isn't so hard! And I also like to get some more "practice" in as you usually need it if you will be searching for your ball.
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::) ???
Every week someone breaks this rule in my group, and unless you are a dick no one tends to say anything unless its a tournament. Then there tends to be a fight as to how long they were looking causing hard feelings. I would change the lost ball rule to a one shot penalty and drop where the group agreed it was last seen.
Archie,
The idea of a one stroke penalty for an "unexpected" lost or OB ball is a pretty serious reduction from stroke and distance, which nets out to two strokes any way you slice it (pun intended). With the option to drop and take a two stroke penalty, you are lying three, hitting four either way.
It may be that you are advocating a one stroke penalty and a drop for ALL lost ball/OB situations; I think the "logic problem" with either or both of those is that a player would be getting the same penalty for a ball that has either completely left the golf course or can't even be found as he/she would for an arguably much better shot which is in an unplayable lie, or even in a penalty area. In those instances, at least the ball is still findable and on the property.
I do see the simplicity of ALL of these being one stroke penalties; I even play some in a senior tournament group that plays this way and treats the entire golf course as if it were bordered by red stakes, including if you lose the ball. It's not terrible, it DOES speed up play, if only because nobody EVER hits a provisional ball or second ball, even when the original shot hit the cart path, then the road, then two cars, then a house, and finally a small child and a dog playing in their backyard, and usually the best players still win, but I think it is a bit too much leveling of the competition for better players to get on board.
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If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb
Exactly. This isn't so hard! And I also like to get some more "practice" in as you usually need it if you will be searching for your ball.
Guys, everybody agrees with you about hitting provisionals, ok? We're talking about a VERY specific situation that comes up from time to time when nobody in the group suspected that anything would be wrong, and the ball either can't be found, or turns out to be OB. It happens.
The last round I played, my second shot on 18 was a 6 iron that missed the green to the right, into "standard" rough. All three of us saw the shot and knew where it had landed and walked directly there; we never found the ball. The three of us didn't find it in three minutes, and I picked up on the hole and kept looking for my newish $4 ProV1x while they finished the hole. Never found it, and this has NOT been uncommon in the Southeast this summer as the Bermuda grass has enjoyed PERFECT conditions for growth.
I KNOW you are not saying that I should hit a provisional ball EVERY time my ball is out of the fairway, cause that's the ONLY way to avoid unexpectedly lost golf balls, and I KNOW to hit a provisional under circumstances where there is a reasonable possibility of the ball being lost or OB. I never object to hitting a provisional because, as Wayne points out, at the worst, it's a little bit of practice legally.
But that's NOT what we are talking about here, and wouldn't have anything to do with difference between searching three vs searching five.
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I'll add one more - the % of fairways hit in US Open's is unchanged over the past 30 years.
30 years ago the US Open was being won by Curtis Strange, Scott Simpson, Hale Irwin and Corey Pavin - the shortest and straightest hitters on tour.
Nowadays the US Open is being won by Bryson de Chambeau, Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooms Koepka - the longest power players on tour.
The fairways hit stat might be the same but the game has done a 180 degree turn as to the skills required to win the US Open.
David,
Excellent post and you can toss in guys like Lee Janzen and Payne Stewart who weren't long bombers either.
Perhaps the biggest difference I could tell from 2006 to this year is, when they missed the fairways back then they had 5 and 6 irons approaches from the rough, a very difficult ask...as opposed to this year where it was wedges and 9 irons.
The overall takeway is sadly accurate. Because distance off the tee has increases by so much and that its almost all carry, the challenge of the rough with mid to long iron is gone for the longest of players on tracks with high rough, eliminating most of the field before the first tee ball is hit. Its become a one dimensional game of bomb and gouge, rinse and repeat.
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As nothing more than a point of data…
https://twitter.com/iacas/status/1310921313922494465 (https://mobile.twitter.com/iacas/status/1310921313922494465)
Currently the poll I posted to Twitter (I didn't spend long and I'm not a pollster, so if you think the wording might be slightly slanted/biased, you may be right) has "It should be shorter" at 5.7%, "3:00 is great!" at 57.1%, and "Go back to 5:00" at 37.1%. The text preceding those poll choices is "Regarding the time to search for a ball under the Rules of Golf:"
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If in doubt, hit a provisional was the mantra I was told as a youngster and is one I’ve adopted ever since.
Oh, and more short grass would be pretty helpful as well. Much, much shorter.
Atb
Exactly. This isn't so hard! And I also like to get some more "practice" in as you usually need it if you will be searching for your ball.
Guys, everybody agrees with you about hitting provisionals, ok? We're talking about a VERY specific situation that comes up from time to time when nobody in the group suspected that anything would be wrong, and the ball either can't be found, or turns out to be OB. It happens.
The last round I played, my second shot on 18 was a 6 iron that missed the green to the right, into "standard" rough. All three of us saw the shot and knew where it had landed and walked directly there; we never found the ball. The three of us didn't find it in three minutes, and I picked up on the hole and kept looking for my newish $4 ProV1x while they finished the hole. Never found it, and this has NOT been uncommon in the Southeast this summer as the Bermuda grass has enjoyed PERFECT conditions for growth.
I KNOW you are not saying that I should hit a provisional ball EVERY time my ball is out of the fairway, cause that's the ONLY way to avoid unexpectedly lost golf balls, and I KNOW to hit a provisional under circumstances where there is a reasonable possibility of the ball being lost or OB. I never object to hitting a provisional because, as Wayne points out, at the worst, it's a little bit of practice legally.
But that's NOT what we are talking about here, and wouldn't have anything to do with difference between searching three vs searching five.
Haven't you figured out that making sense on this board gets you nowhere??? ;D
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When we were working on the new Rules, I thought that changing the time to 3 minutes might end up being one of the more controversial changes. The feedback we got from the March 2018 proposed wording showed that it really wasn't that big a deal to most people who filled out our surveys.
Some important things that go hand-in-hand with the time change are that there is no longer a penalty for accidentally moving your ball in searching and, as long as your actions are reasonable, you may end up improving the conditions affecting your next stroke while searching without penalty. Both of these mean you can get in there and search quicker and with less concern about possibly getting a penalty. We saw cases where players wouldn't search but let the other players in their group, officials and marshals do so in order not to get a possible penalty. Now there is really no excuse for that.