Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Thomas Dai on September 09, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
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The recently published Golf Mag listing excluded 9-hole courses that are part of Clubs/facilities that have additional courses.
If a separate listing for 9-hole courses that are part of Clubs/facilities with additional courses were compiled which 9-holers do GCA posters consider should be on it?
Atb
Cross ref to the top-50 separate venue thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68788.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68788.0.html)
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The problem with this exercise is that it becomes arbitrary to decide what counts as a 9-hole course vs. what doesn't.
For instance, Otter Creek is one of the best days of golf available within a 90 minute drive of my home. An all-day rate of under $100, and 27 holes of golf spread over three nines, two of which I rate very highly.
The North 9 and West 9 comprise the original 18 holes, with the East 9 added at a later date. But the facility doesn't really count the East 9 as its own course, and the North and West as an 18 hole course. It treats all three nines equally.
The North 9 would be one of the best 9 hole courses in the US as a standalone nine. As would the West. I think of those nines as their own 18 hole course, but that's only because I understand the basic history of the property. The club no longer treats those nines as an 18 hole course, but as two of the three nines that you can play in any 18 hole round.
The East, for what it's worth, just doesn't rev my engine and wouldn't make my list of any top 9 hole courses.
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The problem with this exercise is that it becomes arbitrary to decide what counts as a 9-hole course vs. what doesn't.
Fair enough.
Let’s make it stand-alone 9-holes for this exercise.
Atb
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I don't understand Jason's problem.
If the nine are rotated into the main course on a regular basis, a la Ridgewood in NJ, then that's a 27-hole course. If the nine is nearly always reserved for nine hole play, then it should be recognized as such.
By far my favorite is the Valliere course at Morfontaine.
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I'd be curious to hear more about the 9 hole course at Southern Hills. In my only visit, I only played the main course, and did not even realize they had another 9 until I was on site. Can anyone share their thoughts on the course? Would it be among the top 9 holers in the US?
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While I wouldn't put it at the top of any lists, the Mount Pleasant Course at Mt. Washington is a blast. Play 18 on the main course, grab some lunch, then do laps around the 9-hole course in an amazing setting.
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St George's Hill green 9 would be my tops for this category.
Sleepy Hollow's would belong on any US "3rd nine" list.
BTW - Shouldn't the Pine Valley short course be on this list instead of the par 3 list? There's at least one p4 on it.
I've never played Southern Hill's 3rd nine, I only know it was designed by Crenshaw - and it's greens are (or were) cut by robot mowers!
Michael
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Anyone play the 9 holer at Maidstone?
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St George's Hill green 9 would be my tops for this category.
Sleepy Hollow's would belong on any US "3rd nine" list.
BTW - Shouldn't the Pine Valley short course be on this list instead of the par 3 list? There's at least one p4 on it.
I've never played Southern Hill's 3rd nine, I only know it was designed by Crenshaw - and it's greens are (or were) cut by robot mowers!
Michael
There are a number of very good holes on the green nine at SGH. There are a couple of stinkers too. But the issue is that it was not designed as a nine hole course -- Colt built a second 18 at the club in 20s. It is clear to me that it was an afterthought -- if he had expected to be called back to build eighteen more he'd never have routed the main course the way he did -- the Green (which was originally the New or Ladies' course) starts in a very awkward location. When the course was brought back into play after the war, it was cut to nine, and this was formalised when Donald Steel renovated it 20-odd years ago. Much of what has been lost was in the area delimited by the back nine of the main course -- I think four holes were in there. Sadly for anyone thinking about whether it could be put back, the club has recently built a large reservoir in that area.
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Time to name a few GB&I and ask about a few others -
The Channal at Burnham
St Olaf at Cruden Bay
The Bann at Castlerock
How about ..
Yellow at Portmarnock?
Wee at Blairgowrie?
Would like to add the Kilmore at Carne but can’t really as it now seems to be incorporated within the Hackett holes.
What’s the 9-holer at Machrihanish like?
Connemara?
Enniscrone Scurmore-9
The Rosapenna 9 on the hill?
Nairn? Fraserburgh? Peterhead?
North Foreland?
Atb
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Which ones at SGH would you consider the stinkers Adam? I thought there were mostly good holes and a few really good ones. I don't recall any bad ones.
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Which ones at SGH would you consider the stinkers Adam? I thought there were mostly good holes and a few really good ones. I don't recall any bad ones.
The par five fourth is a horror, the worst ground on the entire property and a very dull hole. I don't like the seventh much either -- it was formed out of two original Colt holes and I don't think it works very well, although the terrain is excellent.
The best hole on the course, imo, is the par four fifth, and the short four sixth is also very good indeed.
The ninth is a bit silly, because the terrain is so wild, but I forgive it because it's a lot of fun.
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Including all 27 holes (but no more), I think I'd go:
St George's Hill
Portmarnock
Sleepy Hollow
TCC Brookline
Ridgewood
None of you have invited me to play Morfontaine. Yet.
Michael
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I'll concede on the (7th) 26th. But the 4th (23rd) is just fine - maybe take down the trees on the right past the cross bunker. Everything else is really good. Maybe not world class compared to the first 18 holes, but very very good.
As a stand alone, the Green would belong in the top 50 9 holers IMO.
Michael
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a very tricky category with all the 27 hole complexes(which usually screams loss of identity or 1975-especially when all 3 nines return to the clubhouse)
Morfontaine
Bann nine at Castlerock
St Olaf
Maidstone
Carne? (i haven't played the new 9)
Portmaromack-I think many 27 hole complexes fall into this-what's the main 18?
Sleepy Hollow?(has it gotten better?-Spent a lot of time there in the early 90's--I only remember 6,7,8 as being really good holes(leftover from CB's original)-5 par 3's)
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From what I've heard/seen/read, it seems like that side 9 at Sand Hollow in Utah would fit in here.
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From what I've heard/seen/read, it seems like that side 9 at Sand Hollow in Utah would fit in here.
Great call. I had forgotten about this one. It is really fun. Quite different than the main 18 there (on a flat property with far less eye candy), the links nine actually played firm and fast on my visit.
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Can I just reverse TD's thread, and ask which is the least distinguished 9-hole or similar accompaniment to a distinguished principal 18? In this category I would, I fear, have to nominate Nairn (although in fairness it's at least fifteen years since I last sampled the Newton course, parts of which were akin to flags in a field), but doubtless there are other contenders: sometimes 'practice holes' or 'nursery holes' have been souped up into a course proper. The old 'New' 9-hole Course at the Gogs (now replaced by the Wandlebury 18) was rather better than that, but in places not very much - although it did possess arguably the best hole on the entire property in the short sixth (still mothballed).
At the other end of the scale, warm support for the Channel Course at B&B, and some of the most challenging drives in England.
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Portmarnock Yellow is a cracking 9 holes, only inferior to the main course as its greens are a little simpler / tie in less well and there is a slightly weak finish on 8 & 9.
But the holes themselves are excellent and 4 & 6 are two of the best par-4’s on the property.
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Which ones at SGH would you consider the stinkers Adam? I thought there were mostly good holes and a few really good ones. I don't recall any bad ones.
The par five fourth is a horror, the worst ground on the entire property and a very dull hole. I don't like the seventh much either -- it was formed out of two original Colt holes and I don't think it works very well, although the terrain is excellent.
The best hole on the course, imo, is the par four fifth, and the short four sixth is also very good indeed.
The ninth is a bit silly, because the terrain is so wild, but I forgive it because it's a lot of fun.
Isn't the Green used as part of the main course sometimes in winter etc?
Anyone played Rye's Jubilee 9 recently? It's pretty good and I was led to believe the club was going to continue improving it.
Ciao
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Which ones at SGH would you consider the stinkers Adam? I thought there were mostly good holes and a few really good ones. I don't recall any bad ones.
The par five fourth is a horror, the worst ground on the entire property and a very dull hole. I don't like the seventh much either -- it was formed out of two original Colt holes and I don't think it works very well, although the terrain is excellent.
The best hole on the course, imo, is the par four fifth, and the short four sixth is also very good indeed.
The ninth is a bit silly, because the terrain is so wild, but I forgive it because it's a lot of fun.
Isn't the Green used as part of the main course sometimes in winter etc?
Yeah, they like to give the main course a bit of a rest in January and/or February
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David
Someone else mentioned the nine holer at Machrihanish as worth playing which is interesting as I'd always assumed it was bit like Richard described the nine holes at Nairn.
One other to mention even though I haven't played it either is the Hillhouse course at Barassie. It was part of the main course until they developed another nine holes in the 90's that replaced them. I've played the 18 hole course and from what I recall of the old holes on that course are well worth playing so I imagine Hillhouse will be as well. Mileage wise it comes in at just over 5,500 yards for the double round (if that counts for anything).
Niall
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David
Someone else mentioned the nine holer at Machrihanish as worth playing which is interesting as I'd always assumed it was bit like Richard described the nine holes at Nairn.
Haven't played the Pans. But in the same area I have been told by several good judges that the course at Carradale is different gravy.
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There’s the Headland-9 at Trevose as well, Murcar has another 9-holes too I believe and there’s one at County Sligo that’s not bad and could be made quite a bit better.
Surprising in some ways how few there are and how few seem to attract praise.
Atb
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I would second Tom’s position on the Valliere course. They have some of the most fun greens anywhere on the planet. Another one that is an absolute blast and quite whimsical is the Bad Little Nine at Scottsdale National. I found it to be a fantastic addition to Jackson/Kahn’s Other Course. If it’s not the coolest facility in AZ, I would love to see its competition.
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If you want to throw a wrinkle into the question...what do you do with Montclair Golf Club in NJ which has 36 holes that it describes as 4 nines (not two 18's)? I am not asking this to be "cute" but rather to suggest a solution to the 27 holes facility question. How about saying that Montclair has two 18's with one being the routing the USGA used for the biggest event Montclair GC ever hosted...the 1985 US Amateur which used nines 2 and 4 (and calling the other 18 holer nines 1 and 3...which was the second 18 used for qualifying). I should note that the 1973 US Women's Am was played on nines 3 and 4, but the US Am history should override that).
Extending that to 27 hole facilities...I would suggest that a facility has one 18 and one 9 (instead of 3 nines) when it is managed that way (e.g. Morfontaine, St George's Hill, and The Country Club) and/or when its 18 holes course is regularly posted as a Top 100 (World or in country/region such as USA, GB&I, or Continental Europe). That way all 27 holes are eligible for a top 100 list...either 18 or 9.
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I didn't play it on my visit in August 2019, but the Huntingdon Valley Centennial 9 looked interesting.
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Prince's has 27 and The Himalaya's are usually considered the 3rd 9.
Haven't played since the recent revisions but the Par 3 7th has always been a favourite.
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Prince's has 27 and The Himalaya's are usually considered the 3rd 9.
Haven't played since the recent revisions but the Par 3 7th has always been a favourite.
But the club tries to pawn the place off as three 9s. That said, to back it up they now offer 9 hole rates. I still consider Princes as 18 and 9 because any real event there is played over the same 18, or at least that used to be the case. It may all be for nought because I don't reckon the new Hims is all that. It feels like links in Florida with all that water about.
I wouldn't consider SGH's Green 9 as a true 9 holer. It spends too much time in the rotation as part of the main 18.
Ciao