Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sandy Smith on March 21, 2020, 11:28:10 AM
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Hi everyone. With so many of us having a bit more time on our hands I would like to pose a question to all of you that’s been on my mind for years. How many courses can you go to each hole in your head? Example 12 at Augusta, we can all go straight there but how about #3 ? I am at about 25 courses but I’ve also worked in golf all my life. I know guys like Tom Doak and Jim Urbina would have a very high number.
Stay safe.
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;D 8)
Can't read your text without my peepers but like the question. Think that being able to remember all the holes on a golf course is one of my top criteria for a great design. When you can remember the small details of the individual holes without plaing it many times you probably are on a great one!
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Re sized to make readable :)
Hi everyone. With so many of us having a bit more time on our hands I would like to pose a question to all of you that’s been on my mind for years.
How many courses can you go to each hole in your head? Example 12 at Augusta , we can all go there but how about # 3?
I’m at about 25 but I worked in golf all my life. I know guys like Tom Doak and Jim Urbina would have a very high number.
Stay safe
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I've wondered this from time to time as well.
For me, it is probably around 20 where I can play a virtual round in my head and not have to strain my brain to remember anything. The list includes clubs that I've joined, courses that I grew up playing, and public courses near me that I play a lot. After that, there are another 20 or so where it would come to me if I were there- like remembering lyrics to a song when you hear the instrumentation kick in.
Strangely, there are a several long lost courses where I can walk through the routings like I was a member there (Lido, Overhills, Mill Road Farm, OFCC III, etc).
One thing that I've always noticed is that it is much easier for me to remember routings and individual holes if there is some elevation change. It adds another point of differentiation to cling to.
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I'm better than most at recalling holes, even on courses I haven't played in years, so I'd put my number at 40 to 50, comfortably.
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Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?
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My memory is not as good as it was 20-30 years ago, but it's still pretty good. ;)
I started by guessing my number at somewhere between 100 and 150 courses. Certainly, it would include all the 38 courses I've built, and maybe another 25 where I've consulted over the years.
After that, I'd like to think I remember every hole on a lot of top 100 courses, plus the usual number of courses as you guys [Sterling Farms where I grew up, the Cornell University course, etc.]
So, to test, I've dug out Volume 1 of The Confidential Guide. Here are the GB & I courses where I can remember every hole. They are all places I've visited multiple times:
Royal Dornoch
Cruden Bay
Carnoustie
Kingsbarns
St Andrews (Eden)
St Andrews (Old)
Muirfield
North Berwick (West)
Musselburgh Old
*The Renaissance Club
Askernish
Machrihanish
Prestwick
Royal Troon
Royal Birkdale
Royal Lytham & St Annes
Notts
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
*Woodhall Spa
Royal St. George's
Rye
Sunningdale (Old)
St. George's Hill
Walton Heath (Old)
Royal North Devon
*St. Enodoc
*Pennard
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
Rosapenna (OTM)
*St. Patrick's
Ballybunion (Old)
Ballybunion (New)
Lahinch
That's 35, including 5 I've worked on. I didn't cheat; I can remember a lot of holes at a place like Brora or Castle Stuart or Cleeve Cloud [because I was only there 3 years ago], but can't easily remember all 18.
So my total is up to 91. With U.S. and Australian courses, I think my guess of 150 is pretty close.
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Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?
Those are two entirely different things, as I remember hole numbers in a sequence or leaving one green are and surrounds and its link to the next hole.
Therefore I rarely remember cartball courses as well-always one I can't quite remember how I got to
I'd bet my number is pretty high as I have a lot of favorites I often return to.
I'm up to 20 just on Eastern Long island, and that doesn't count the courses around Augusta I grew up on which has to be near 15-20 as well.
Gotta work on it as it's easy to guess at a number but then you forget how you got to #7 :( from #5
I'd be shocked if it' s less than 75
Years ago I used to try to recall every hole of a golf trip on the plane ride home, which helps, especially on repeat courses. In Donegal I could do it with 5 or 6 courses, though it's pretty challenenging with the changes at Rosapenna OTM, Gweedore and Narin and Portnoo. I've NEVER been able to remember the holes at Ballyliffin with the texture and terrain being very similar of the holes and the two courses intertwining with each other.
Always liked the vibe there, and the individual holes but they just never grabbed me like other links courses.
Circle back later with a number
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Most of the courses around Portland, Bend and Bandon, with 60, 30, and 20 years of imprinting.
The antithesis story - Was riding home from Bandon, we had played BD,PD,BT. One of the passengers brought up a par 3 he really liked, but he couldn't remember which hole it was, nor which course. I described all of them, he couldn't pick it. A year later, when we were back at Bandon he said "this is the hole". It was a par 4.
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I first started thinking about this years ago when I would ask someone on the crew to let’s say fertilize the 5th tee on the course we worked at. Frequently I could see in their eyes that they would be counting in their head starting on the first tee the four holes prior to #5 in order to get there.
I’ve also seen it where guys can’t walk directly to their assigned tee in a shotgun start even though they’ve played there for years.
I thought you would be around 200 Tom.
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I'm better than most at recalling holes, even on courses I haven't played in years, so I'd put my number at 40 to 50, comfortably.
I'm *worse* than most, by far, which sometimes troubles me because I can't understand why that is.
I mean, I did very well in school, and I long thought of myself as a bright enough fellow with an excellent memory.
But when it comes to golf courses, there is only 1 that I can play in my head from start to finish -- and that's only because I've played it 50 times!
It reminds me of a theory of mine: good architects "see" differently than I do, and "process" what they see even more differently.
On the one hand, even after 30 years, I bet I could write an "A' paper on some obscure medieval philosopher in two hours; but hold a gun to my head and a full 24 hours and I couldn't read a topo map if my life depended on it.
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Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?
Not all of them. But many of them. For example, I'm not sure I could walk to every hole at Dormie Club. In fact I'm positive I could not. But I can recall every hole and how to get to the next hole after that one.
Just around Erie I can name 15 courses that I can name every hole. Maybe I misunderstood your question and it's limited to Top 100 courses or something, but yeah, just around here I get a lot of courses.
You think my number is "very high" but what about the courses you grew up playing? Surely that gets your numbers to 10 or 15, no? If the courses still exist.
Trust me, I make up for my memory for golf courses by not being very good at remembering a face and a name for people I have only met once or twice.
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I really wasn’t sure Erik what a “high score” would be and no I was not meaning just the 100 courses or so. To me any course that one can go to any hole in their head instantly without really thinking about it fits the bill.
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Excellent topic Sandy,
Routing certainly plays a key in forming a lasting memory. Starting on anything but #1 in a shotgun just ruins it for me. A good example would be Stone Eagle in Palm Springs. We started on #10 the first day of the Kings Putter and although I started on #1 twice after that I still can’t remember the sequence of holes, I do remember the good ones though.
Other courses that I’ve only played once or twice are burned into my memory. A good example would be Victoria GC, which I’ve only played twice but have a strong recollection of the holes and sequencing. Perhaps good to great golf course architecture is just more memorable than the ordinary stuff!
A good memory trick is to recount your experience shortly after it, like reviewing the front 9 after having played it. If you think of something once it will probably be forgotten forever because it’s only logged in your short term memory. However if you recollect something within a couple of hours of first recognizing it it will be burned into your long term memory. But I’ve practiced this on countless mundane golf courses and hardly recollect a hole or two. But the good ones do last in the memory banks.
I’d be interested to here others take on why you can remember certain golf courses so vividly and others with little to no detail.
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I totally agree with you Peter about having to start on the first hole to really get your bearings so to speak.
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Memory tends to remember the really good things and really bad things. So remembering every hole does not necessarily equate to a course being good.
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Totally agree.
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Well, there might be a difference between "knowing right where [/size]all the holes [/size]are" [/size]and being [/size]able to see in your he[/size]ad th[/size]at little inconspicuous mound or contour set on the [/size]apron th[/size]at [/size]affects your running [/size]appro[/size]ach -- [/size]and remembering th[/size]at for every hole.
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[/size]I love routings, routing m[/size]aps, etc -- [/size]and due to th[/size]at I c[/size]an prob[/size]ably "remember" the holes on every single course I've ever pl[/size]ayed or w[/size]alked, [/size]and [/size]a good m[/size]any I h[/size]aven't (chiefly prominent works of gc[/size]a). But [/size]as for th[/size]at higher level of remembr[/size]ance, my [/size]answer h[/size]as to be much sm[/size]aller -- cert[/size]ainly not more th[/size]an 20.
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Sandy,
Interesting question but one I am happy to discuss. I just recently got off the phone with the superintendent at MD. I was able to discuss each hole and exactly what the hole looks like and what remains to be done. I remember elevations on the greens and bunkers, tees and mowing lines, like I was there yesterday.
I could say the same for every club I have consulted at,
The Greens at Garden City can't forget,
Almost every bunker at SFGC,
The slopes of the greens at Pasatiempo
The backgrounds of every hole at The Valley Club and even some of the bunkers on holes that are not fully restored.
The remaining bunkers we need to do at Yeamans Hall
The routing of Claremont and what was changed and what was original
The notes from Emerson Armstrong at Sankaty and what we had to do to restore it
The 12th hole at WBYC and what makes it so special and the 16th hole where I watched Bill Murray impersonate his likeness ( Carl) as he played the hole.
The location of bunkers at Paramount Club hole by hole
The original routing and the new one that Flynn did at the Glenview Club.
The original holes at the Bob OLink Club and the ones that were changed by Alison
The shapes of the greens at the Dunes Club before I reimagined them
The original routing for Midland Hills before it was modified. where the Short belongs and why it was changed
The first green at St Charles and the people standing. at different elevations with Alister MacKenzie as he posed for the photo.
Where the Alps were shaped on the first putting course we did at Shinnecock before they changed the green later down the road.
The routing for Apache Stronghold and who did what green, for example Kye Goalby shaped the first green, and was the first hole we worked on.
Anything you want to know about the many iterations of routings at Pacific Dunes, every green at Sebonack or anything at Old Macdonald, just call.
I can even remember shaping holes for Pete and his son Perry at Plum Creek, Stonebridge in Plano Texas, Rancho Sante Fe Farms.
Going hole by hole at Arizona State University, acting as design associate for Pete and discussing how he wanted holes to look and play.
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And countless holes like the Leven at Lundin Links or the Himalayas at Prestwick.and one of my favorite holes the 10th at Highland Golf Club and its serpentine waterway. I don't know why I just do
But you know what Sandy,
I can't remember something that was told to me yesterday.
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I'm nearly always stunned when I have a member who plays the course 3x a week for 10 years come in and tells me about his great shot on "you know, the par 3 up the hill-I think it's on the back..."
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Anything you want to know about the many iterations of routings at Pacific Dunes, just call.
Or he can buy my book on routing, and see the various iterations of the routing at Pacific, and Mr. Keiser's memos back to me with comments. Whereas we only have your word on how it happened, and memories can be selective!
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Although I have an exceptionally good memory for other things, I've never had that skill when it comes to golf courses. My father can play a course a couple of times and remember most or all of the holes 20 years later; I can play a course yesterday and not remember half of the holes without some kind of prompt.
I think there's only one course where I can easily go from 1-18 in my head, because I've played it 100+ times. There are a few other courses I've played at least 10 times where I could possibly remember all 18, but I may not be able to get them in order. It's more likely I'd remember most of the holes but forget at least a couple.
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When I played the rerouted nine hole course I learned to play on, and played innumerable times, I could not remember the holes of the original. After my second play of two plays of the rerouted course now known as Jawbone Creek, I posted a photo tour here a few years back. I can clearly remember the holes now. Sometimes the brain needs a little task to help its storage function.
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8) ;D
Sandy I think the underlying value of the question posed is not the number of holes someone here can remember. Rather it's the point that goo d architecture tends to be memorable.
I once played a match years ago with an acknowledged memory expert, to my amazement he could remember everything but how many strokes he took on a couple holes.
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Jeff, your comment made me laugh and I’ve heard similar things at the places I’ve worked and been a member.
My question rose from meeting so many like the guy who can’t remember “the par 3 up the hill-I think it’s on the back....”
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Man you guys have great memories. I am no where near where all those in this thread are. Maybe 10 or less. Probably played 350-400 courses in my life I estimate. I don't have a great memory when recalling certain holes. Part of it is that I typically play most of my golf on trips with 36 holes not uncommon for multiple days in a row, so they tend to run together.
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This is a great question. OK, so I have played 1208 courses worldwide in my lifetime. Went thru the list and would say my total is 34 (excluding 9 holers). Of those 34, I would catagorize them as follows:
--"home" courses and clubs where am/was member--9 (played each well over 100 times)
--played >5x and memory strongly reinforced by TV golf (e.g. ANGC)--6
--played >5x times which was enough to remember--16 (of these 16 I would say 8 were basically because of the sheer brilliance of the design)
--played <6x but fully remember--3
of these 34 the fewest times I have played any is probably 4.
The last one of these that I played for the first time was Chechessee Creek in 2011. Being the ultimate in list chasers (and tending to work from the top of the lists down), my courses played for the first time in the last 2 or so years tend to be not a good as those played earlier (with some clear exceptions--e.g. Golf de Fountainebleau, Austin GC, Ohoopee, Mammouth Dunes, Cedar Rapids, Congaree, Huntingdon Valley, Askernish, Brora, etc.).
Of the 34...to me the most visually memorable (and easy routing to recall) has to be North Berwick.
Finally...I find that I do not remember the bad courses at all...I generally tune out after a while and can't wait till the round is over. With memorable courses, my senses are much more "alive."
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Was thinking about this some more and realized there is 1 other course that I can play in my head, even though I've only played it 5 or 6 times. And maybe not coincidentally, it is built on a very (and always) hilly site, with constant elevations changes, utilized by the architect in many different ways. I think I can remember each golf hole because what I'm really remembering is the distinct topography of each.
Peter
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You made some great points Paul and get what you’re saying.
I know a lot of us can play a round in our heads of many courses but if we are having a beer in a pub and someone mentions the 7th hole of course X can you go there?
That’s what I was trying to get at.
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Was thinking about this some more and realized there is 1 other course that I can play in my head, even though I've only played it 5 or 6 times. And maybe not coincidentally, it is built on a very (and always) hilly site, with constant elevations changes, utilized by the architect in many different ways. I think I can remember each golf hole because what I'm really remembering is the distinct topography of each.
Peter
One of the top memory savants, Daniel Tammet, has synesthesia. He eventually memorized 22K+ digits of pi because his synesthesia caused him to see various 3D landscape formations when he sees a number- i.e. for each number, he sees a different shape and with its own distinct combo of color, texture, and sound. When he's reciting the digits of pi, he's really just flying through the trail that he has memorized of that landscape. This thread just reminded me of him.
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I must not be understanding the question because I reckon that I can remember a ton of courses if I can mentally start from the first tee. That number would drop dramatically if I was asked about a specific hole on a course. I usually need to mentally find it from starting on the 1st or another easy starting point. I simply don't mentally see holes as much as I do courses. My brain wants to work from big to small where golf is concerned. I think taking photos and doing tours significantly improves my memory of courses.
Ciao
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I’m completely rubbish at remembering hole numbers, particularly in the middle of a round, but OK in remembering a course hole by hole provided it’s interesting enough. For instance if you mention the Pit or Perfection at NB I know exactly where you mean but ask me there hole numbers and I’d need to go through the sequence in my head to work it out. That holds true even for “home” courses that I might have played hundreds of times. I’ve no idea how many courses I can do that for but it would likely be a fraction of the amount Tom can do.
As an aside, I recall once being asked to pick a hole and describe it. I chose the second on Gullane 3 which is a par 3. At the time I was playing the course on a regular basis and had probably played it over 50 times. I drew a plan of the hole describing in details the contours/slopes etc and was pretty pleased with myself at my powers of recall. The following week I was playing the hole and noted that I’d missed out two bunkers !
Niall
ps. just read Sean's post and he has the same issue re numbering. Is that because we both tend to play courses that don't have a more formulaic routing ?
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You made some great points Paul and get what you’re saying.
I know a lot of us can play a round in our heads of many courses but if we are having a beer in a pub and someone mentions the 7th hole of course X can you go there?
That’s what I was trying to get at.
Sandy--
depends what you mean by "get there". On some of my 34 courses, I cannot get directly there mentally, I would have to think thru holes 1-6 and then be at #7. Does that "qualify"?
BTW...I cannot remember the names of most people I know...and also have a mild case of a condition known as "face blindness". So I can play 18 holes of golf with someone for the first time, and see then later in the day and not recognize them! I call my condition "mild" as there are people who do not recognize their spouses (Pat may sometimes wish I was like that ;D ) and supposedly one person who does not recognize himself in a mirror!!
Best
Paul
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but i could get to the 7th or whatever hole directly if walking for shotgun start
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I've played 1,132 golf courses and for many years I had what I'll call a photographic memory for golf holes in that I could recapture them in my mind's eye on command. That worked well for about the first six or seven hundred courses (I could recall probably 90%+ of the holes vividly) that took me into my 40s, but in the last 20 or so years I find that a lot of those memories have dissipated.
Honestly, I think I used to spend more time post-round going over each hole (sans map or scorecard) on my drive home and then at least once a year or so I'd go through my scorecard collection for a refresher. Those reiterative exercises helped to keep those courses/holes in my main memory to use computer jargon.
Now that I'm in my 60s I'd say I could probably do a hole by hole without visual aids for about 150 or so of the courses I've played. I could worry that I'm losing my memory but I'm finding as I get older that Einstein was correct...why waste brain power on stuff you can just look up? I'm less about facts and more about research and putting facts together in ways I couldn't do or didn't have insight to do when I was younger.
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I think taking photos and doing tours significantly improves my memory of courses.
Ciao
Interesting-I almost feel like when I take photos I'm more inclined to forget the holes, as my focus tends to wander to taking shots where the light is good or features that are so remarkable I would remember them anyway. Sean tends to take comprehensive photos of the entire course(Thank you!), in sequence which probably helps.
I find I rememebr a course best when I'm simply playing it and the holes blend into one another well. A long walk or cart ride where I might lose my bearings (i,e east/west or wind direction)consistently loses me.
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Interesting topic.
My friends have always said that there is something seriously wrong with me since I can remember every golf hole that I have ever played. I agree that there is something wrong with me, I love golf courses!
I find that if I walk a course, remembering is much, much easier.
I have to go through the course in numerical hole order if it is not a well known or special course, but I can get there eventually.
I stopped counting after 100 courses.
I find that when I find myself in an MRI tube, which happened 5 times last year, that since I don't like closed spaces, it is a great time to "play" all of my favorite courses in my mind!
Hope the older I get I don't start to forget courses, which will probably happen!
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I find that when I find myself in an MRI tube, which happened 5 times last year, that since I don't like closed spaces, it is a great time to "play" all of my favorite courses in my mind!
Same here--it was the only solution I could think of where my level of concentration would be greater than my claustrophobia. Luckily I've only had to use this trick twice in 20 years--don't even want to think about 5 times in a single year.