Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Erik J. Barzeski on March 11, 2020, 02:26:35 PM
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At about the six minute mark of the Golf.com podcast with RTJ Jr. he says some things I found pretty curious.
“Pete Dye was a very good low Florida, low level golfer. I live in the far west so I’m a three dimensional golf architect. … I had to learn the extra dimension. So when you have more land that’s changing elevations I’m probably more suited to it than Pete was.”
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/drop-zone-golf-podcast/id1004688973?i=1000467967000 (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/drop-zone-golf-podcast/id1004688973?i=1000467967000)
This strikes me as a bit of a slam, and an untrue one at that as Pete is from Indiana. Of note too is that I’ve played Pete’s courses in Ohio (somewhat flat) at Avalon Lakes, (somewhat hilly) at Fowler’s Mill, Indiana (hilly) at French Lick, PA (hilly) at Nemacolin Woodlands, and other places (including Florida).
What do y’all think? Any real truth to this? RTJJr. just being RTJJr.? Something else? And please listen to the few minutes to hear it directly. It’s around 5:45 or 6:00 in.
Edit: Made the title more clear.
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Mr. Dye, may he rest in peace, forgot more about golf course architecture than RTJ Jr. knows.
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In stock market terms, Pete Dye was a high "beta" architect, "beta" being the ability to differentiate from the market average. He took risks, he took different routes, his product was innovative and sometimes controversial. Sometimes he struck out, but often he produced new trends and inspiring architecture. RTJ jr. was a low "beta" architect.
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Well, I'll bite on the Pete Dye part. Many of his widely acknowledged best courses—Sawgrass, Kiawah, Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, Casa de Campo, PGA West—are indeed built on dead-flat ground. Austin Country Club is pretty good on hilly ground. French Lick is hilly but has been panned on here. Oak Tree isn't dead flat but it's not hilly. IDK about Blackwolf Run, Honors Course, or the Golf Club. Where did he design a great hilly course?
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Well, I'll bite on the Pete Dye part. Many of his widely acknowledged best courses—Sawgrass, Kiawah, Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, Casa de Campo, PGA West—are indeed built on dead-flat ground. Austin Country Club is pretty good on hilly ground. French Lick is hilly but has been panned on here. Oak Tree isn't dead flat but it's not hilly. IDK about Blackwolf Run, Honors Course, or the Golf Club. Where did he design a great hilly course?
Where did RTJII design a great hilly course?
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I do think Pete was at his best on flat sites, where he was more creative than anyone else, precisely because he thought in 3-D.
I'm not sure where Bobby was at his best? Clearly, it's not at showing respect for the recently deceased.
Many years ago, Pete told me he had done an interview with Art Spander, the old SF golf writer, and Spander kept telling him that RTJ II had criticized this and that of Pete's courses -- trying to get a rise out of Pete to say something negative about Bobby or his courses. And Pete just kept telling him he couldn't comment, because he hadn't really seen any of Bobby's courses. When he finally hung up, he thought, "But he has sure seen a lot of mine."
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Just in Indiana alone you have The Fort, Eagle Creek, the aforementioned French Lick course, Chatham Hills and the NLE Mystic Hills GC, all on varying degrees of hilly sites.
While I don't love every one of his courses, Pete Dye pushed the envelope to create something different and thought provoking. Some architects need a great site to build something notable. My Dye could create interest from pretty much any site.
Ken
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So everybody bitches about railroad tyes laid flat in the ground?
I was going to write Tom Doak's sentence almost verbatim.
Pete Dye was also damn good at thinking in 4D. Can't say the same for any of the Jones guys.
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For what it's worth, my mentors said the same thing about Pete's earlier work, like Harbor Town. Their thought was that the bunkers laid flat, not sweeping up like a MacKenzie (or Jones Sr.) bunker, etc. The Harbor Town greens were little plateaus, with not a lot of contour (because they were small).
They felt like he had a hard time thinking out of plan view. Of course, they had no idea of his love for Langford greens, etc.
It had nothing to do with working on flat sites vs. rolling ones. Of course, Pete's designs, whether via his evolution or that of his growing number of associates certainly evolved over time. I also recall them commenting on PGA West being way over shaped. Specifically, some of the shaping was so far from the greens, i.e., two rows of backing mounds/earth forms. They asked why he would do it. My response was, "Uh, it looks pretty spectacular!"
In the end, you have to remember that Dye got a lot of criticisms from the old line architects when he got successful, just as Doak, CC, etc. get now. What's funny is if RTJII thought criticizing work of others would lead to more work for him (it won't, never has, never will) you think he would pile on the current crop of hot architects. Him critiquing Pete is like the Republicans going back in time to pillory Hillary, when they should be focusing on the current opponent.
(Just MHO and an example, not a political statement.)
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I had not really noticed the plethora of courses on dead flat terrain that Pete designed. It certainly gave him freedom in routing the course creating mounds and rolling terrain wherever he wanted them. It is a kind of creativity that not many designers have. I have played a great many of RTJ jr's courses and many are on hilly sites but they do not hold a candle to Pete's creations. If he would have just stated that Pete designed many of his courses on flat sites and that that was a strength, without making comparisons it would have served him better.
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In general, did Pete Dye's courses have high/higher than average slope ratings?
If so, do you think that was related to the number of poor/flat sites he was given to work with?
No doubt, many of his clients asked him for a tough 'Pete Dye championship test'. But when there are very little pre-existing green sites and elevation changes and sandy blowouts and width to work with, does the hand of man tend to create more testing fields of play than Nature does?
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While a gross generalization, most of the things I find interesting about Dye courses I have played comes from 2D angles rather than particular slopes. The par 5's at TPC Sawgrass are probably my favorite set of any course I have played, but the temptation and decisions and interest arise because the angles provide temptation to aggressive play.
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No doubt, many of his clients asked him for a tough 'Pete Dye championship test'. But when there are very little pre-existing green sites and elevation changes and sandy blowouts and width to work with, does the hand of man tend to create more testing fields of play than Nature does?
That's a very good question.
I noticed in my own work that on a flat site, I tended to draw in more features than normal, whereas on a more difficult site I'm working to soften things and make the course playable. So, for me, it might be true that my more testing courses are on relatively flat sites.
For Pete, I doubt that was necessarily true. He was great at routing a golf course on hilly land to avoid drainage issues -- I'm using his plan for The Honors Course in the front of my routing book to demonstrate this -- but his default position was that he was going to shape all the features whether the site was flat or hilly to start.
The degree of difficulty was more set to what the client had asked for. The first project I worked on for him was Long Cove -- his next course after the TPC at Sawgrass -- and Mrs. Dye would frequently note that we weren't building greens for four tournament hole locations like Deane Beman wanted, and that the old lady founding member they had met was the end user of Long Cove. That didn't mean the course was easy or boring, but it's not as severe as the TPC.
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Has anyone mentioned Pete Dye Golf Club in West Virginia? I thought it was very hilly, and in my opinion one of his best courses. Probably in my Top 3 with Harbour Town and Whistling Straits.
I assume Pete probably didn't want hilly & mountainous course where he'd have to force it on the land, especially when he only did a couple courses per year.
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Where did RTJII design a great hilly course?
You may have one too many words in that sentence. ;D
It should be said, I do like Chambers Bay.
There is the old discussion about whether it's harder to build a good golf course on a great site or a flat featureless site. My answer to that question is that it is harder to create a great course from nothing HOWEVER, it is easier to Fu*k up a good site.
I'm not sure I've seen a course more disconnected from its surroundings as one of Junior's creations here in Arizona.
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I listened. It's a very nice interview. Not sure I would agree RTJ-2 was dissing Pete. He simply pointed out a difference to their backgrounds. Bob was raised in the hills of California, and got most of his early work on hilly sites. Pete more gentle sites, including Florida and other lowland sites.
It was heartening to hear Bob mention Rees and others.
Once when playing with Bob at Harbor Town he composed a poem about the Dyes, to be shared that evening with Pete and Alice as an honor to their work and contributions. Too bad, all I can recall was one of the rhyming lines — which I helped with — "whisky" and "frisky" were the words. I contributed "frisky" and it became a part of the second line. Pete and Alice seemed pleased at Bob's writing. I recall the poem being read in a bar before dinner. Not sure what happened to the poem. I'll try and find it.
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Has anyone here seen Hoiana in Vietnam done by RTJ Jr? My son played it yesterday and said it was incredible. Just opened March 2nd (we will see how long it stays open with the virus going on though Vietnam seems to have done very well managing it). Every grain of sand was brought in and Andy said you wouldn't know it. Andy played all the Bandon courses with me several times and he said it ranks right up there with them which is saying something. His photos look amazing.
I am not sure Bob was dissing Pete. I think Pete could build anything he wanted on any kind of topography. But without question, Pete didn't need a great site to pull it off. That is why he was so good. He built his courses, he didn't find them.
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Playing at the Dey"s (plural) at the Moorings, in Vero Beach, for many years now, I can appreciate how great small green size, with a lot of contour, can show a year end budget minded club superintendent, Scott Campbell, puts character into a great layout.