Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: David_Tepper on January 10, 2020, 03:12:59 PM
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To develop a long term master plan for the Lakeside golf facilities. It will be very interesting to see what he proposes in the next few years.
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Just saw that in Twitter, he’s doing Merced too!
Kind of a bummer won’t be able to play those for a while.
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Finally, some common sense prevailed. It sounds like the new guard has finally looked on the walls of the locker room and saw what the potential is.
Has to be 15 years ago when I was on the greens committee, we flew Gil up from LA and the chairman of the committee and myself interviewed him for the entire day. Sadly, that went haywire when the all powerful superintendent vetoed our choice to pick his buddy, an architect with no restoration experience and was in way over his head.
The final straw came three years ago when they rebuilt all the bunkers to look like a Hawaiian resort yet are deep and unplayable. Now that superintendent and architect have been shown the door.
It won't be hard for Gil to restore the historic bunkers but it will be costly since they used Capillary bunkers and all that cement will have to be blasted out. I suspect he will restore some of the sandy areas of the course and hopefully restore the bunkers that RTJ filled in prior to the 1955 US Open.
The letter said he's going to meet members this summer and start work at the end of the year.
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Good for Gil and the O club
“Blasted out”?
It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
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It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Is it possible to recycle that stuff so that you don't waste resources putting more of it in afterward? Assuming, of course, that they will build everything to "modern standards," because everyone knows it would be a travesty to have a modern bunker without a ton of concrete protecting it from the native sand underneath.
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Concrete? Wow. That is a part of building a golf course I would never have even imagined!
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It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Is it possible to recycle that stuff so that you don't waste resources putting more of it in afterward? Assuming, of course, that they will build everything to "modern standards," because everyone knows it would be a travesty to have a modern bunker without a ton of concrete protecting it from the native sand underneath.
don't get me started..
guess what classic course installed concrete most recently-
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“Blasted out”?
It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Blasted out might not be the right wording but break it up is not as easy as it sounds. I'm told it's 3 inches thick so they will need some type of heavy machine to remove and then grind it up.
Regardless, this 15 year old nightmare is about to end.
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The US Women's Open will be played on the Lake in less than 18 months. I would be surprised if any material changes to the Lake are made between now and then.
My understanding is Hanse's initial brief is to evaluate the OC's practice facilities to see how they can be improved and to see how those changes might impact the Ocean and Cliffs courses.
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Good for Gil and the O club
“Blasted out”?
It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Do Billy Bunker or Cap Con offer a disposal spec? I don't doubt you could bury it, but would California allow it to be buried given the polymer binder?
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I haven't played Olympic since the bunker work was done, but I've seen them, and they sure are different looking from what I remember back in the day. Here is a good look at the work that Capillary Concrete did:
https://capillaryconcrete.com/dramatic-bunkers-at-the-olympic-club/ (https://capillaryconcrete.com/dramatic-bunkers-at-the-olympic-club/)
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I played course in SC last year the was using what looked like epoxied pebbles. At my home course we put down a layer of sod on the bottom of the bunkers, let it root, killed it, then put the sand on the sod.
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Every time someone talks about bunker liners, I think about being at The Open at Royal Troon in 1982, when Gary Player opined that the sand in the bunkers was too deep. The press asked the greenkeeper for his reaction, and he said, "As far as I know, it's sand all the way to China." The idea of lining them was not discussed.
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Tom,
Every time you complain about them I think, "Not every course is built on pure sand."
95% of what I work on is a clay base full of rocks. Predominantly shale.
We have a strong freeze / thaw cycle that pushes them to the surface.
Having nothing means they rebuild in 5-10 years.
Most club can't afford that cycle.
I rarely use the really expensive liner options.
Native clay and sod work for limited budgets.
But clean clay is becoming harder to find an expensive to install.
Sod only lasts so long and then the liner stops working ...
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Tom,
Every time you complain about them I think, "Not every course is built on pure sand."
95% of what I work on is a clay base full of rocks. Predominantly shale.
We have a strong freeze / thaw cycle that pushes them to the surface.
Having nothing means they rebuild in 5-10 years.
Most club can't afford that cycle.
I rarely use the really expensive liner options.
Native clay and sod work for limited budgets.
But clean clay is becoming harder to find an expensive to install.
Sod only lasts so long and then the liner stops working ...
Yes, but the topic here is a club that will be tearing out very expensive capillary concrete after about ten years to redo the bunkers because of "style", or something.
These expensive liners are sold on the premise that they will last for generations, but most of the clubs that can afford them don't have the patience to leave a bunker alone for generations. They will decide to make them deeper, or build them closer to the fairway, or whatever.
Also, I have never dug into the ground at The Olympic Club, but SFGC is built on sand, and Olympic is much closer to the ocean, so I'm guessing it's sand, too. So, to put you on the spot -- would you use an expensive liner [or ANY liner] for sand on sand?
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Wow, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to go OT and devolve into yet another discussion/debate on bunker liners. ;)
Despite assumptions to the contrary, it will likely be several years before Gil Hanse begins to address the Lake course and suggest what should/could/can be done with the bunkers there.
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Tom,
Every time you complain about them I think, "Not every course is built on pure sand."
95% of what I work on is a clay base full of rocks. Predominantly shale.
We have a strong freeze / thaw cycle that pushes them to the surface.
Having nothing means they rebuild in 5-10 years.
Most club can't afford that cycle.
I rarely use the really expensive liner options.
Native clay and sod work for limited budgets.
But clean clay is becoming harder to find an expensive to install.
Sod only lasts so long and then the liner stops working ...
Yes, but the topic here is a club that will be tearing out very expensive capillary concrete after about ten years to redo the bunkers because of "style", or something.
These expensive liners are sold on the premise that they will last for generations, but most of the clubs that can afford them don't have the patience to leave a bunker alone for generations. They will decide to make them deeper, or build them closer to the fairway, or whatever.
Also, I have never dug into the ground at The Olympic Club, but SFGC is built on sand, and Olympic is much closer to the ocean, so I'm guessing it's sand, too. So, to put you on the spot -- would you use an expensive liner [or ANY liner] for sand on sand?
Depends on how good the salesman is and what other courses the green committee is visiting to benchmark against to tell their membership....."Riviera just did this."
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So, to put you on the spot -- would you use an expensive liner [or ANY liner] for sand on sand?
Nope, but I expect you knew that before you asked.
Btw, that choice is never mine to make alone. Either they make it, or we make it together. I'm OK with the approaches that work, as long as there is a budget for it. I find they have zero impact on design, but they add a cost per square metre. It's not a huge amount, but I do need to pay for the additional details required.
What I I do is steer them away from bad ideas, there are plenty of those, as opposed to promoting a specific approach. In my little world, far more clubs still use sod or clay rather than something synthetic.
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Depends on how good the salesman is and what other courses the green committee is visiting to benchmark against to tell their membership....."Riviera just did this."
Yes, and that's the stupidity of it all. Let's spend another $500k on something the architect thinks is a waste of time, but won't say too loudly for fear of upsetting the superintendent.
As Ian says, it's rarely our call. We installed capillary concrete at Bel Air to reduce washouts and contamination -- in a location where it rained exactly one time during the nine months the course was closed for reconstruction -- because that's what the [ex] superintendent and the green committee were sold on.
Labor is expensive in L.A., but if you only have to put the bunkers back together 2-3 times a year, it's hard to justify the liners on a cost-savings basis. It does, also, add time and headache to the shaping of the course. And just the waste of money we witness is enough to make you want to raise your fees to the moon.
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Depends on how good the salesman is and what other courses the green committee is visiting to benchmark against to tell their membership....."Riviera just did this."
Yes, and that's the stupidity of it all. Let's spend another $500k on something the architect thinks is a waste of time, but won't say too loudly for fear of upsetting the superintendent.
As Ian says, it's rarely our call. We installed capillary concrete at Bel Air to reduce washouts and contamination -- in a location where it rained exactly one time during the nine months the course was closed for reconstruction -- because that's what the [ex] superintendent and the green committee were sold on.
Labor is expensive in L.A., but if you only have to put the bunkers back together 2-3 times a year, it's hard to justify the liners on a cost-savings basis. It does, also, add time and headache to the shaping of the course. And just the waste of money we witness is enough to make you want to raise your fees to the moon.
Well Bel Air is a bit of an outlier perhaps as they are now onto their 50 million dollar clubhouse rebuild. Why didn't they do it together I wondered? Played there this August and the member who hosted, said he really doesn't care about the historic clubhouse as he only needs the course and a place to drink a beer afterwards. Pretty expensive bar for him.
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The Bel Air membership felt strongly they should put the golf course first and do whatever needed doing there, and then talk about what they wanted to spend on the clubhouse. I guess I should have convinced them to spend more on the course, but that's not my m.o.
The members who actually live around there use the clubhouse a lot for breakfast and dinner and social functions, to avoid getting stuck in traffic. It wasn't a ghost town during the golf course rebuild, as I'd expected.
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Wow, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to go OT and devolve into yet another discussion/debate on bunker liners. ;)
Despite assumptions to the contrary, it will likely be several years before Gil Hanse begins to address the Lake course and suggest what should/could/can be done with the bunkers there.
Do you not think the bunkers are too deep?
Do the bunkers look original or at least reflect a course built in 1927?
Gil could fix a few in a short amount of time.
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Good for Gil and the O club
“Blasted out”?
It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Do Billy Bunker or Cap Con offer a disposal spec? I don't doubt you could bury it, but would California allow it to be buried given the polymer binder?
Blake, I always find this odd. You can't busy asphalt but you can put it in a hole in and cover it with sand?
i guess its a recycling thing because otherwise it doesn't make sense you can't bury it but you can use it as a bunker liner.
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Good for Gil and the O club
“Blasted out”?
It’s not that hard to demo cap con.
Break it up, dig a hole, bye bye
Do Billy Bunker or Cap Con offer a disposal spec? I don't doubt you could bury it, but would California allow it to be buried given the polymer binder?
Blake, I always find this odd. You can't busy asphalt but you can put it in a hole in and cover it with sand?
i guess its a recycling thing because otherwise it doesn't make sense you can't bury it but you can use it as a bunker liner.
Reminiscent of the same logic that requires a soil erosion permit if a project will expose “X” square feet of soil, while at the same time most golf course exceed “X” with the amount of “exposed soil” with their current bunkers....
Sorry, back to regularly scheduled programming....
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"Do you not think the bunkers are too deep?"
Joel -
What you or I or even Gil Hanse think about the bunkers on the Lake is not especially relevant at this point. What matters is what the OC has hired to do. The OC's announcement regarding GH's hiring makes it fairly clear (to me at least) that making changes to the Lake is down the list of issues the OC wants GH to address over the next year or two.
DT
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...I was on the greens committee...
green committee
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The board last week approved the plans by Gil Hanse "to enhance our golf facilities and restore its historic Lake course". Work to begin the second half of 2022.
A new short game area and the Lombard Street style putting course are also included.
No word on the renovation of the Ocean course as of now.
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Joel,
What iteration of the design will it be restored back to? Have you seen the plans?
Mark
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How does Hanse do it all? He seems to have a ton of jobs at the moment.
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Joel,
What iteration of the design will it be restored back to? Have you seen the plans?
Mark
I had an email with him last year and he mentioned the 1930s. Trouble with Olympic is that certain holes changed for only a year or two when Whiting was the superintendent so Gil and Geoff will have plenty of options. It's not black or white.
I'm certain he will restore the bunkers Jones filled in prior to the 1955 and 1966 US Open (4,9,11,14,18) and hopefully bring back the sandy waste areas on 11 and 16.
The obscene deep bunkers will also be removed.