Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Kalen Braley on April 19, 2019, 05:07:47 PM
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Now that Tiger has won again, what do they do next?
Embark on TigerProof 2.0?
Soften some features?
Push back the tee on 11...there is room!
Eliminate or enlarge any bunkers?
Add a Every day Mans version of Berckman's Place?
Install a new green-side pond on 7? (They couldn't possibly disfigure it any more at this point...)
Put the tee even further back on 13 after they made a mockery of those approach distances yet again?
Bring in the new Open Dr aka Gil Hanse to spruce things up? Or kick it old school and bring in the original Open Doctor to jam in some containment mounds and amoeba bunkers?
Thoughts?
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Fred Ridley has said he's waiting to see whether the USGA and the R & A are going to do something about the golf ball, before he decides on lengthening holes significantly. There have been rumors floating around all winter about the former, but they're still just rumors.
If there is no rollback announced, my guess is they will lengthen #13 by 50 yards or more next year, once Augusta C.C. has completed its changes and Augusta National can use the land they bought from their neighbor. I was thinking they'd lengthen #12 also, but after last Sunday they may be more comfortable they don't need to do that.
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Keep the greens at the speed as they were this year. I believe the green speed this year was a bit slower than in prior years, and I think it was the perfect speed.
Then introduce the Masters regulated ball that must be used (let each ball manufacture create a ball that meets this criteria) by all competitors.
And limit the club head size to no bigger than 220cc.
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Why does the identity of the champion matter?
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Keep the greens at the speed as they were this year. I believe the green speed this year was a bit slower than in prior years, and I think it was the perfect speed.
Then introduce the Masters regulated ball that must be used (let each ball manufacture create a ball that meets this criteria) by all competitors.
Great ideas
in addition to the green speeds you cite, go back to bermuda-it's firmer.
Palmetto was awesome last week-without subair (which may be the most over rated product ever based on how soft ANGC's greens were vs. Palmetto)
and Tom Augusta CC has been playing on their new changes since last November
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They could make 15 a bit tougher by bringing the water behind the green more into play. Maybe also remove the few trees behind the green that help with depth perception.
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I would like for them to sell all of the perimeter land they have accumulated. Erase Berckman's Place. Continue with Chip,Drive and Punt and get back to where they were when they were ANGC and not some group trying to be the next Golf Six Flags. The last few years promotion of the MASTERS has made me see ANGC in a different light. Would be interesting to know how many of the members are in the corner of all this growth.
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I would like for them to sell all of the perimeter land they have accumulated. Erase Berckman's Place. Continue with Chip,Drive and Punt and get back to where they were when they were ANGC and not some group trying to be the next Golf Six Flags. The last few years promotion of the MASTERS has made me see ANGC in a different light. Would be interesting to know how many of the members are in the corner of all this growth.
They're building a tunnel underneath Washington Road from the shopping Center they bought...
Berkmann's Place an intereresting study in people's behavior-Charge people 15x times a retail ticket, give them "Free" food and drink (why anyone would ever need more than the Masters incredibly priced on course concessions is beyond me) gather them in a remote corner off the course-right up next to the near ghetto apartments (I used to live in)
Had two college interns stay with us in Augusta last week-they said many of the attendees never leave for the course and watch the entire event on TV. They were very impressed by the "who's who" that hung out in BP.I get that, they're 19 years old...
but wow....not going out to the course?
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I would like for them to sell all of the perimeter land they have accumulated. Erase Berckman's Place. Continue with Chip,Drive and Punt and get back to where they were when they were ANGC and not some group trying to be the next Golf Six Flags. The last few years promotion of the MASTERS has made me see ANGC in a different light. Would be interesting to know how many of the members are in the corner of all this growth.
They're building a tunnel underneath Washington Road from the shopping Center they bought...
Berkmann's Place an intereresting study in people's behavior-Charge people 15x times a retail ticket, give them "Free" food and drink (why anyone would ever need more than the Masters incredibly priced on course concessions is beyond me) gather them in a remote corner off the course-right up next to the near ghetto apartments (I used to live in)
Had two college interns stay with us in Augusta last week-they said many of the attendees never leave for the course and watch the entire event on TV. They were very impressed by the "who's who" that hung out in BP.I get that, they're 19 years old...
but wow....not going out to the course?
This was my first time at the Masters, but I got the impression that most of the VIPs hang out in the clubhouse, the lower clubhouse spot above 12 or Berckmans and watch the whole thing on TV and spend little to no time walking the course.
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Jeff -
I had not heard before about the tunnel. What does ANGC plan to do with the shopping center across Washington Road? I have a guess.
I have trouble making sense of all the changes at and around the site. The only explanation that comes to mind - to echo Mike Young above - is that they want to make the place safe for the 1%. Inside, Berkmann Place offers refuge from the hoi polloi patrons. Outside, eliminating the tacky shopping center will spare the 1% the discomfort of seeing where the other 99% buy their groceries, hardware and clothing.
I am open to other explanations.
Bob
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Interesting insights and thoughts all.
Other than 13, which lengthening is basically already in the plans, what other holes would be good candidates? Although I certainly hope Tom D is right about the ball rumors...
Mike Young,
Fresh take, even if the 6 Flags thing is a bit over the top. I was looking at Google Maps a couple weeks ago and was dumbstruck at how much property they have now...as best as I could figure. Is this an issue of ANGC being bored so they looking to find ways to spend thier boatloads of cash?
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If there is room I think 16 should be lengthened. Now three of the four par 3s require an 8 iron or less so not ideal in terms of variety. It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
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They are going to follow this thread with apprehension, then do everything we posit.
Failing that, this type of thread has me shaking my head.
A Masters-only ball immediately makes the Masters a non-major. No other sport alters the equipment for one element of a competition. No matter who wins, fans and authorities will always say "that was the Masters where the playing field changed." You can't legislate these types of things into some addled assessment of perfection. Leave it alone.
Distance is what distance is. I plan to strive for it in 10 years, when I'm 63; and in 20 years, when I'm 73.
I like green speeds that allow the contours to matter. Perhaps they can purchase a Masters-only cutting blade for ... oh wait.
I really do like slower green speeds, though.
Who cares if 13 is labeled a 5, but plays as a par 4.5? There weren't that many eagles, were there? That many birdies, were there?
Tiger showed that #5 was a par five this year, as he parred it every round.
I like the Masters the way it is, the way it was, and the way it will be. It never disappoints. It's not anyone's Open, so hands off.
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If there is room I think 16 should be lengthened. Now three of the four par 3s require an 8 iron or less so not ideal in terms of variety. It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
It's still just as long of a shot as it was in 1986 - if you miss your line by half a degree, you wind up in the same place. The only difference is trajectory, and that's less of a factor on #16 than on a lot of other holes.
There is a small amount of room to lengthen 16 by filling back off the tee, before they run up against the small creek that continues on down to #13. I suppose they could probably get a permit to pipe that creek, unlike most other applicants, in which case they could go back much further. But it would make a worse bottleneck for spectators going from 14 tee / 15 green toward 16 and 5, which is one of the main ways into the course now.
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Berkmann's Place an intereresting study in people's behavior-Charge people 15x times a retail ticket, give them "Free" food and drink (why anyone would ever need more than the Masters incredibly priced on course concessions is beyond me) gather them in a remote corner off the course-right up next to the near ghetto apartments (I used to live in)
Had two college interns stay with us in Augusta last week-they said many of the attendees never leave for the course and watch the entire event on TV. They were very impressed by the "who's who" that hung out in BP.I get that, they're 19 years old...
but wow....not going out to the course?
How many people actually buy a ticket to Berkmann's Place, instead of having it given to them by their favorite corporation as a good customer? Anyone at all? And it's way up there by #5 green, so getting to 16 involves a lot of steps . . . much easier to just hang at Berkmann's Place and practice chipping on the replica greens.
Also, there are a lot of people who stay in the press room and barely venture out onto the course.
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I have trouble making sense of all the changes at and around the site. The only explanation that comes to mind - to echo Mike Young above - is that they want to make the place safe for the 1%. Inside, Berkmann Place offers refuge from the hoi polloi patrons. Outside, eliminating the tacky shopping center will spare the 1% the discomfort of seeing where the other 99% buy their groceries, hardware and clothing.
Well put, except that a lot of the gallery for the tournament proper are in the 1%. The people at Berkmann's Place are in the 0.1% or the 0.01%. (Financially speaking, of course. They probably wouldn't all qualify as model citizens.)
But you could be right in the sense of the club itself, as opposed to the tournament.
The rumors about the shopping center involved infrastructure and especially, housing. I think the 0.01% (and the players) are tired of paying so much to rent houses for the week. Call it the Crow's Nest Village!
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Ron,
I'll take a stab at a few of your questions/comments.
Most Pro sports actually do use special balls for play that every other level doesn't: Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, etc. The fact that golf uses the same balls at every level of play is unusual...
13 really did play easy, at least this year. 17 eagles and 158 birdies for the week at .53 under par overall. It also played as the easiest hole on the course 3 of 4 days. 15 played similar in terms of number of Eagles and birdies, while the other two par 5s held up much better.
https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html (https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html)
Either way, don't shake you're head too much, pretty sure they march to the beat of their own very expensive drum... ;)
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Tiger bogeyed #5 all four days. Molinari made par in every round.
They can lengthen 13 (which I'm sure will be done by 2020), or spend money on any other manner of changes, but won't the best player still win anyway?
WW
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Sub air... (which may be the most over rated product ever...)
BIN effing GO
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A Masters-only ball immediately makes the Masters a non-major. No other sport alters the equipment for one element of a competition. No matter who wins, fans and authorities will always say "that was the Masters where the playing field changed." You can't legislate these types of things into some addled assessment of perfection. Leave it alone.
You mean like the biggest and oldest golf tournament in the world did up until very recently.
For American players, that was the only time they ever played the smaller ball, and it played a lot different than any simply reduced flight ball would.
The USGA is impotent and hopelessly bureacratically bloated and Augusta National has been leading the way, with the Asian and Latin America Amateurs, DCP, and now Women's Amateur.
They're not perfect, but they recognize ineptness when they see it around them and have stepped in to fill the void, and do what they need to do to lead the way, while the governing bodies flounder/react.
Currently, 2002 is seen as the Masters where the playing field changed, when they lengthened the course 400 yards to attempt to recapture what the ProV1 did the year before.(while the USGA spent the next 10 years denying anything had changed)
The Masters has tradition of change-if they had left it alone, it would still be called the Augusta National Invitational, and would be right around the TPC or Memorial in stature.
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If there is room I think 16 should be lengthened. Now three of the four par 3s require an 8 iron or less so not ideal in terms of variety. It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
It's still just as long of a shot as it was in 1986 - if you miss your line by half a degree, you wind up in the same place. The only difference is trajectory, and that's less of a factor on #16 than on a lot of other holes.
There is a small amount of room to lengthen 16 by filling back off the tee, before they run up against the small creek that continues on down to #13. I suppose they could probably get a permit to pipe that creek, unlike most other applicants, in which case they could go back much further. But it would make a worse bottleneck for spectators going from 14 tee / 15 green toward 16 and 5, which is one of the main ways into the course now.
Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
The other is variety of clubs into greens. During Tiger’s press conference after his final round he went through the clubs he hit into every green and in the final round alone he hit nine 8 irons. After he went through the round he said jokingly “how many 8 irons is that?”
When evaluating courses how much weight does everyone put in using a variety clubs for approach shots into greens?
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Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
The other is variety of clubs into greens. During Tiger’s press conference after his final round he went through the clubs he hit into every green and in the final round alone he hit nine 8 irons. After he went through the round he said jokingly “how many 8 irons is that?”
When evaluating courses how much weight does everyone put in using a variety clubs for approach shots into greens?
I wondered about the yardage when I saw the setting for the tee. I decided they must have just been fibbing about the distance a little bit back in the 1970's. Many, many courses did.
I've said many times that I don't care about the variety of clubs guys hit for their approaches, the way some others do. For one thing, it's largely out of our control, and it's not like we are still in the era when Bob Jones had nicknames for his clubs because they were all so different. If Tiger had been swinging a 6- or 7-iron instead of an 8-iron some of the time Sunday, he wouldn't have made any different of a swing.
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Ron,
I'll take a stab at a few of your questions/comments.
Most Pro sports actually do use special balls for play that every other level doesn't: Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, etc. The fact that golf uses the same balls at every level of play is unusual...
13 really did play easy, at least this year. 17 eagles and 158 birdies for the week at .53 under par overall. It also played as the easiest hole on the course 3 of 4 days. 15 played similar in terms of number of Eagles and birdies, while the other two par 5s held up much better.
https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html (https://www.masters.com/en_US/scores/stats/index.html)
Either way, don't shake you're head too much, pretty sure they march to the beat of their own very expensive drum... ;)
Kalen,You are off-base about the balls used in other professional sports. Any differences are negligible, by most accounts, and don't affect the way the game itself is played. The differences are more about licensing and endorsement money that the properties of the ball itself.
As an example, I could hand you a new all leather basketball and a new composite basketball and you would be hard pressed to tell me which was which, not only holding it, but dribbling and shooting it. You'd only know the difference when the invoice came from the vendor.
In NO way are any differences in the sports you mention analogous to a tournament ball in golf. That's not an argument against a tournament ball, btw.
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It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
I read a while back that they moved the back tee up to build grandstands for the fans.
Is today's 7 iron really the same as a 1986 5 iron?
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It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
I read a while back that they moved the back tee up to build grandstands for the fans.
Is today's 7 iron really the same as a 1986 5 iron?
16 most definitely was 190 yards in the 1970's
I think the tee came up a bit for traffic flow
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It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
I read a while back that they moved the back tee up to build grandstands for the fans.
Is today's 7 iron really the same as a 1986 5 iron?
For some equipment manufacturers and iron models, yes. Pitching wedges used to be 50 degrees and today some are as low as 44 degrees. Some 7 irons are 31 degrees today vs I believe around 30 degrees for old 5 irons.
Taylor Made just started selling Tiger’s irons and they show stock lofts for the blades (which are weaker than other models they sell) and the lofts Tiger uses. Tiger is close to the old school lofts which makes him longer than most believe since he has some of the weakest irons on tour.
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If there is room I think 16 should be lengthened. Now three of the four par 3s require an 8 iron or less so not ideal in terms of variety. It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
DELETED, HAD NOT SEEN SIMILAR COMMENT
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Pitching wedges used to be 50 degrees and today some are as low as 44 degrees.
Iron lofts have certainly got way stronger, that’s for sure. And set composition has changed too, especially at initial purchase.
My recollection is that from the 1970’s onwards, PW’s were more like 52* although in comparison to 50* that’s splitting hairs a bit.
But some things are different though with clubs of this sort of loft, the role they play and that PW and SW’s usually came as part of a ‘set’, normally 3-PW or 3-SW or 2-PW. Sometimes woods, sometimes 1-2-3-4 or 1-3-4-5 or 1-3-5, came with the ‘set’ as well.
Worth pointing out that yee olde 52*-ish blade type PW’s usually had almost no bounce and often had a very narrow width flange, ideal for nipping shots of very tight lies, which back in yonder days were much more common than nowadays - they were thus quite different to a modern day more utilitarian gap wedge of the same loft.
As to SW’s back in yonder days they were usually 56* or thereabouts, generally had big, wide flanges with lots of bounce, so they were fine for bunkers and longer rough - skilled folks could of course do more with them.
As to 60*/LW’s, I don’t recall seeing any available until about 1986 (Ram-TWatson and Ping Eye2) although there may have been others before that or maybe just ones with more loft but without the loft being written on them.
As an aside, Seve apparently never used a 60*/LW, sticking with a 56*.
Good point about Tiger using relatively ‘weak’ lofts in his irons.
Atb
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I have the AP3 irons and the PW loft is 43.
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Don’t forget that the older irons had zero offset. Manufacturers realized that adding offset allowed the player to strike the ball with a more hands ahead position. This however effectively added loft to the club; this is probably what started the eventual creep in descending loft on irons. The gap wedge is the modern day pitching wedge and the modern modern 3 iron performs just like the old 2 iron.
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It would be nice to see guys hit 6 or 7 iron into 16. We all remember Jack’s 5 iron in 1986, which is equivalent to a 6 or 7 iron today.
Part of the reason for my comment is because the hole today is listed as 170 and it was 179 on Sunday. In old broadcasts you hear the announcers say the hole is 190 yards so I was wondering if they moved the tee box up a little over time for better spectator flow.
I read a while back that they moved the back tee up to build grandstands for the fans.
Is today's 7 iron really the same as a 1986 5 iron?
For some equipment manufacturers and iron models, yes. Pitching wedges used to be 50 degrees and today some are as low as 44 degrees. Some 7 irons are 31 degrees today vs I believe around 30 degrees for old 5 irons.
What about length of shaft/grip? Is today's 7 iron the same length, top to bottom, as the earlier-generation 5 iron?
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Technology will continue to move forward as it should.
Players today, as a whole, are evolving just as fast as equipment. Should we restrict training to control distance?
Do we better understand golf physics because of trackman technology and can use old tech to create new results?
Irons don't go further...they just have different numbers on them...and the argument that they "launch higher" isn't strong as that is a product of superior ball striking. Most tour players aren't playing huge cavity back irons with low CG's. I have new tech and still can't get a 5 iron above my head.
...but back to the Green Jackets....
Tiger hitting 8 iron into a bunch of greens on Sunday is a result of course management on his part, weather conditions, and ball striking....not technology. I don't believe they "need" to add distance....but ANGC doesn't have any "needs". Adding a couple yards here or there doesn't get me any less or more excited (which "more" isn't really possible) about the Masters.
I did like the "more difficult" #5. Berckman's place is irrelevant to me....to each their own if you wanna spend time there instead of on the course. Adding infrastructure, tunnels, or whatever doesn't matter much either. My experience as a patron last year was unparalleled to any other spectating experience I've had.
My only request would be to restrict my access to the merchandise shop....THE most dangerous place on property. [size=78%] [/size]