Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Nick Ribeiro on April 13, 2019, 08:11:24 PM
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I'll be interested to see the ratings this year after its all said and done IF Tiger wins The Masters. As it pertains to Golf Course Architecture, I will also be interested to see where Architecture goes from here and how ANGC motivates all the Superintendents who volunteer their time maintaining the course for the week. I have to imagine most industry professionals who go dream about getting their own course to those conditions, even though its impossible within the average greens budget. Last season after Bellerive and East Lake Tiger praised both designs and said he preferred golf courses that are straight forward and out in front of him. He likes to compete on courses that require extraordinary execution with limited options so everyone must hit similar shots, the harder the better. If Tiger wins does golf cater to his preferences for potential ratings? Does this mean longer courses? Holes with fewer options to the greens? Holes with extreme penalty everywhere? Can Tiger dictate architectural preference with a serious career comeback? Should be interesting. Up next, Bethpage, another hes praised..
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It's Palm Sunday. If Tiger wins some long winded preachers are going to be out of work come Easter.
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All the men will throw their hats into the air, and there will be a hot time in the old town tonight.
Pulling for the old guy, but he's got some very impressive competition at the top of the leader board. If Brooks Koepka wins again, it will be yet another major where the media isn't very focused on him, and on Sunday he magically takes control.
If I were making a wager, I'd bet on Molinari to win. A two shot lead, with no discernible emotional involvement.
Good tournament so far!
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It's Palm Sunday. If Tiger wins some long winded preachers are going to be out of work come Easter.
John, my congregation always knew when I wanted out early. Of course, right now I am in Ireland in a monastery and these guys don't really care and I won't know the winner until I get up Monday morning at 3:45 for Vigils. :'(
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It's Palm Sunday. If Tiger wins some long winded preachers are going to be out of work come Easter.
John, my congregation always knew when I wanted out early. Of course, right now I am in Ireland in a monastery and these guys don't really care and I won't know the winner until I get up Monday morning at 3:45 for Vigils. :'(
Two words come to mind. “Special dispensation”. ;)
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I've never seen 12 play this way, but it takes me back to the days when the veterans all insisted you do not aim at the flag on Sunday. It looks still on the tee but the wind knocks the ball down 10-15 yards. 4 of the last 6 players in the water. 13 and 15 playing short and coming up. The golf is really exciting this year.
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The big mass of T Storms are converging fast. Not sure if they'll get the last few groups in....
https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=33.48&lon=-81.97&cm_ven=localwx_wumap (https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=33.48&lon=-81.97&cm_ven=localwx_wumap)
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Holy Moli! Francesco fades and Tiger is ascending.
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8) a cinderella story per IBF
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Holy Moli! Francesco fades and Tiger is ascending.
Molinari pulled a Speith....The Water Ball Brothers....
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Holy Moli! Francesco fades and Tiger is ascending.
Molinari pulled a Speith....The Water Ball Brothers....
Four of the final six took a dive on 12.
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Holy Moli! Francesco fades and Tiger is ascending.
Molinari pulled a Speith....The Water Ball Brothers....
Four of the final six took a dive on 12.
But only one of them was ahead by 2 at the time and in great position to win... ;)
P.S. At least he didn't pull a Norman...
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8) So Tiger appears to be doing at 43 what Jack did at 46... that's kind'a cool too if he gets it across the finish line...
yeh, he's back Jack!
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8) So Tiger appears to be doing at 43 what Jack did at 46... that's kind'a cool too if he gets it across the finish line...
Brooks coulda put some major pressure on if he had made that putt on 18....but looks like Tiger has two putts to win now!
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...throws hat in the air, chants "Tiger" with the other revelers.
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I'll remember most the tee shot on 16, landing and taking the slope almost exactly where & the way JN's did in '86.
That's the thing about golf, eh -- there's strategy and choices and managing emotions and architecture and luck (good & bad), but when it comes to winning it's most of all about hitting great golf shots, and more of them than everybody else.
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Amazing achievement.
I wonder if the use of gum by golfers worldwide is now going to rise? Roundneck shirts too.
:)
Atb
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What do you guys think of Tiger's game now vs his peak? Is he better, worse or about the same?
The related question: what does that say about today's top golfers? Does Tiger face stiffer competition now, or is it easier? I don't think the names (i.e. how many majors they won) matter so much as how the golfers he beat (or lost to) actually played against him. That's true for both now and back then.
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He's certainly not at the dominant level he was at 20 years ago but I'd love to see that again! I think the top tier is far deeper now than previously - back then you had Phil, Vijay, Ernie and a few others but nothing like JT, DJ, Koepka, Day, McIlroy, Reed, Rickie, Molinari, Stenson, etc. etc. I think it's great for the younger guys to be able to see Tiger at or near his best and if he stays healthy he can easily stay elite for 5+ more years...if his back and knees are okay he's far fitter than Jack was in his 40s.
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Today he proved that he is the best-ever, and he just showed a whole new generation of players what the likes of Mickelson, Duval, Couples, Parnevik, DiMarco, et alia, had to contend with.
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What do you guys think of Tiger's game now vs his peak? Is he better, worse or about the same?
The related question: what does that say about today's top golfers? Does Tiger face stiffer competition now, or is it easier? I don't think the names (i.e. how many majors they won) matter so much as how the golfers he beat (or lost to) actually played against him. That's true for both now and back then.
I was there this year and what impressed me most was how he shaped and flighted every single shot and much than his competitors, Every single shot was shaped and flighted.
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What do you guys think of Tiger's game now vs his peak? Is he better, worse or about the same?
The related question: what does that say about today's top golfers? Does Tiger face stiffer competition now, or is it easier? I don't think the names (i.e. how many majors they won) matter so much as how the golfers he beat (or lost to) actually played against him. That's true for both now and back then.
Tiger faces more competition than ever.
Ran into a friend yesteday at The Masters.he was talking to Charles Howell on the range who commented that he(Charles) said he is playing the best golf of his life and can't win. His comment was he shot-19 and was in a playoff!
This competition is a result of
1.the generation Tiger inspired
2.The conditioning he inspired
3.better instruction-so much better
4.equipment that has leveled the playing field where a wrench, rather than improved technique, can produce superior ball flight.
To say nothing of thin faced rebounding drivers-now irons and fairwaywoods as well
Balls that have low spin off drivers, and high off wedges allow power players to play a fade without it being too spinny and/or upshooty, which is very reliable.
years ago, very few could ht a fade for any power unless they were incredibly shallow(Trevino, Hogan) and or powerful(Nicklaus, Lietzke)
So there are just more long straight drivers.
This equipment allows also players to stay relevant longer(Phil/Bernhard), while also allowing juniors the ability to learn great technique at a very early age (light enough)
So you have a 40-45 year window to be relevant-which creates a LOT of competition-example being Koepka would've tied for first today if Tiger had been cut, as he would've been in a team sport.(you don't send a 40 year old to AAA-you cut them)
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If anyone has the chance listen to the post round telephone interview of Nicholas onothe golf channel about his assessment.
In short he said everyone but Tiger played 12 wrong and Tiger used every slope to his advantage.
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What do you guys think of Tiger's game now vs his peak? Is he better, worse or about the same?
The related question: what does that say about today's top golfers? Does Tiger face stiffer competition now, or is it easier? I don't think the names (i.e. how many majors they won) matter so much as how the golfers he beat (or lost to) actually played against him. That's true for both now and back then.
Peak Tiger today? No, and in all candor not that close. Peak Tiger was the best golf anyone ever played on the planet, so....no.
As a longtime commentator in these parts about Tiger, I'm not surprised -- particularly after last fall (PGA, Tour Championship at East Lake) -- that he'd be in contention in another major, and that he did so and won at Augusta National is perhaps the least surprising part of the equation. Tiger clearly loves the course, has since he first set foot on it as an amateur, and to do this day has a game well-suited for the course's unique set of challenges. He had by far the most experience playing that course than anyone on the leaderboard (not counting Lefty's brief foray to the first page), and the ability to manage your game under the pressure of a major on the last day is what separates major winners from others, and the greats from the pretenders.
I'm struck a bit by the lack of commentary on one factor contributing to his win -- luck. Tiger had a number of errant drives, and most times seemed to have openings to shoot at the green or come up with a relatively easy recovery. That his errant ways off the tee didn't lead to doubles or worse, but often resulted in scrambling pars or bogeys at worst, is another testament to just how good he was this week. (And he seemed to figure out something mid-round Sunday that corrected his driving problem, another sign of his genius and achievements this week.)
More than anything, I was struck by just how superbly he managed his game, particularly in the white-hot pressure that is the back nine at Augusta. Of all facets of his game, I thought the best part of it this week was his lag putting (the best shot I saw him strike all week was the first putt on the 9th green Sunday from the upper tier of that green -- that was a thing of utter genius and talent, and as good as peak Tiger). He just looked like a guy who thought: If I get this on the green, the worst I'm gonna do is two-putt (at one point Saturday, someone mentioned he led the field in GIRs). Witness the recovery shot at 11, with the pond lurking for a mis-hit; the tee shot on 12 to the middle of the green; the approaches on 13 and 15; the Jack-like tee shot on 16 that kept trouble out of the equation. Tiger to me won the tournament Sunday on holes 9-16, where really well-executed shots were rewarded with birdies and easy pars, and the occasional trouble that popped up led to no worse than bogeys (the smart punch-out at 10; watching Tiger manage Augusta this week was like watching an anti-Lefty show).
A great win by a great player, and a back nine show to rival some of the best at the Masters, which is saying a lot.
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Tiger faces more competition than ever.
Ran into a friend yesteday at The Masters.he was talking to Charles Howell on the range who commented that he(Charles) said he is playing the best golf of his life and can't win. His comment was he shot-19 and was in a playoff!
This competition is a result of
1.the generation Tiger inspired
2.The conditioning he inspired
3.better instruction-so much better
4.equipment that has leveled the playing field where a wrench, rather than improved technique, can produce superior ball flight.
To say nothing of thin faced rebounding drivers-now irons and fairwaywoods as well
Balls that have low spin off drivers, and high off wedges allow power players to play a fade without it being too spinny and/or upshooty, which is very reliable.
years ago, very few could ht a fade for any power unless they were incredibly shallow(Trevino, Hogan) and or powerful(Nicklaus, Lietzke)
So there are just more long straight drivers.
This equipment allows also players to stay relevant longer(Phil/Bernhard), while also allowing juniors the ability to learn great technique at a very early age (light enough)
So you have a 40-45 year window to be relevant-which creates a LOT of competition-example being Koepka would've tied for first today if Tiger had been cut, as he would've been in a team sport.(you don't send a 40 year old to AAA-you cut them)
Great post Jeff,
It appears to me the biggest difference between golf now and golf 10-20 years ago is the player's ability to hit very long fades off the tee. I think it is mostly an improvement in equipment, especially the ball. It used to be that players would hit the big high draw to get the distance they needed to excel, but now the balance has shifted to a 275-325 yard fade because it is more reliable, as it always has been. I think it took Tiger a while to adjust his game to what now works best.
I'm very happy today. I really like Tiger Woods, like many of us do, and it's almost always great in golf to see the old guy beat the young lions. Tiger may be a more precise short iron player than he's ever been. Brooks Koepka proved once again that he is a big time money player. Beating Koepka is very difficult in big tournaments.
I can't get over how important the 12th hole was today. For 10-20 years now we've watched the players lose their fear of shooting for the flag on Sunday, after us old folks were told for decades that you shouldn't do that. It took a strange weather day with a strong south wind to make this happen. Today the ahots just fell out of the sky. Even Nick Faldo didn't quite comprehend what was happening. After Molinari came up short, he thought Francesco simply hadn't hit it well enough, whereas me and Ben were thinking there was great danger after Koepka and Poulter came up short in the previous group. Generally, the ball doesn't react to the wind near as much as it used to, so it was amazing to see four of the final six players hit it into the creek. I can't believe Finau (or Poulter) did not take the hint and play left. But it's been so long since the mythical power of the Sunday pin bared its teeth.
It's all downhill from here. That's the best tournament we'll see this year. I hope the other majors are great, too.
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;D
Well wasn’t that just the best? At some time around 2:30, I felt a great disturbance in the force. It was as if hundreds of whining GCAers all groaned at once, then were silenced.
I was pulling for Tony, he’s the only person I will root for over Tiger. But if Tony wasn’t going to win, well, Tiger winning is just too sweet for words.
Yeah, he’ll never win again. Yeah, he’ll never win another major. Yeah, he’s done.
Yeah right.
I only wish I had saved all those sterling predictions for posterity.
;D
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Phil you are right about luck, I have been staying with a friend this weekend who has played the course 30 times, Woods hit it into the trees on 13 I think yesterday and my friend said that’s a probable lost ball. Woods finds it, it’s playable and somehow he makes a birdie rather than a double.
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He has won at Bethpage & PB. He now knows he can win. Watch out.
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The best thing that could occur for the game of golf - having Tiger win (yep he had some personal transgressions - let each of us who hasn't cast the 1 st stone).......inject life into the game, have real TV ratings, expose this next generation to someone who is one of the best in the sport ever.........and there will always be naysayers on GCA (lucky bounces, etc).
Enjoy the moment and lets hope for our game it occurs again.
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I'm struck a bit by the lack of commentary on one factor contributing to his win -- luck. Tiger had a number of errant drives, and most times seemed to have openings to shoot at the green or come up with a relatively easy recovery. That his errant ways off the tee didn't lead to doubles or worse, but often resulted in scrambling pars or bogeys at worst, is another testament to just how good he was this week. (And he seemed to figure out something mid-round Sunday that corrected his driving problem, another sign of his genius and achievements this week.)
To me, the "luckiest" break he got was the weather forecast for Sunday which forced 3-somes and put him in the last group. I'm guessing Molinari and Finau would've preferred watching Tiger play ahead of them. The dynamic is completely different when you're playing in his group.
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I'm struck a bit by the lack of commentary on one factor contributing to his win -- luck. Tiger had a number of errant drives, and most times seemed to have openings to shoot at the green or come up with a relatively easy recovery. That his errant ways off the tee didn't lead to doubles or worse, but often resulted in scrambling pars or bogeys at worst, is another testament to just how good he was this week. (And he seemed to figure out something mid-round Sunday that corrected his driving problem, another sign of his genius and achievements this week.)
To me, the "luckiest" break he got was the weather forecast for Sunday which forced 3-somes and put him in the last group. I'm guessing Molinari and Finau would've preferred watching Tiger play ahead of them. The dynamic is completely different when you're playing in his group.
I believe Molinari and Finau were the only two on the leaderboard to shoot over par Sunday. Coincidence?
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I'm struck a bit by the lack of commentary on one factor contributing to his win -- luck. Tiger had a number of errant drives, and most times seemed to have openings to shoot at the green or come up with a relatively easy recovery. That his errant ways off the tee didn't lead to doubles or worse, but often resulted in scrambling pars or bogeys at worst, is another testament to just how good he was this week. (And he seemed to figure out something mid-round Sunday that corrected his driving problem, another sign of his genius and achievements this week.)
To me, the "luckiest" break he got was the weather forecast for Sunday which forced 3-somes and put him in the last group. I'm guessing Molinari and Finau would've preferred watching Tiger play ahead of them. The dynamic is completely different when you're playing in his group.
great point
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So what happens? We get three breathless years to see if Tiger can reach 18 majors by the time of Jack's last win at 46. Of course, Tiger supporters can argue his back is actually 68 years old......
All kidding aside, the best part of the whole deal was seeing a 43 year old man as happy as an 8 year old. I hope, in our own lives, we can all recapture that level of joy at least once more.
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Next years Masters Champions Dinner will be different.
Pundits, Tiger haters and all those who thought he was finished and wouldn’t win another Major etc will also be in attendance and Humble Pie will be on the menu! :)
Atb
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Holy Moli! Francesco fades and Tiger is ascending.
Molinari pulled a Speith....The Water Ball Brothers....
More like a Seve on 15
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I was a Tiger doubter too, thinking he would never win a major again, but I enjoyed the result just as much as everyone else who was watching yesterday.
P.S. And I will glady now pay up on a few standing bets with some friends.. ;)
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I was pulling for Tony, he’s the only person I will root for over Tiger. But if Tony wasn’t going to win, well, Tiger winning is just too sweet for words.
George,
I noticed Tony wasn't wearing a green shirt yesterday...being in the final group of The Masters and all I was surprised. What happened there?
"He started a tradition of wearing a green shirt in the final round on Sundays as a tribute to his mother. It was her favorite color. “I know she’s there, I know she’s following me,” he says."
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900014419/from-rose-park-to-augusta-tony-finaus-unlikely-journey-to-golfs-grandest-stage.html (https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900014419/from-rose-park-to-augusta-tony-finaus-unlikely-journey-to-golfs-grandest-stage.html)
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"This surgery was about quality of life because I didn't really have much," Woods told reporters earlier this week. "I've been in bed for about two years and hadn't been able to do much.
https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/other-sports/golf/2019/04/14/exactly-richard-guyer-plano-back-surgeon-responsible-tiger-woods-return-competitive-golf (https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/other-sports/golf/2019/04/14/exactly-richard-guyer-plano-back-surgeon-responsible-tiger-woods-return-competitive-golf)
Tiger's back surgeon, Dr Guyer, is obviously going to get more popular, but I would love to hear more about Tiger's rehabilitation. I was in the camp that I thought his back, not Tiger overall, was toast. Obviously Tiger thought the same at one point.
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Kalen, I don't know, maybe he was worried his choice of green would clash with a green jacket. :) I really hope he gets one someday, and soon at that.
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I'll offer a small, teeny tiny apology to the other posters for my over-the-top smug post earlier. But many on here are too new to know of the Tiger Wars of 7-10 years ago. And I do wish I had kept record of the haters - and make no mistake, most of them weren't doubters, they were flat out haters. Kalen and Mike expressing their doubts that proved wrong are the minute exception. The rest of them are too embarrassed to admit their were driven by hate and punished for it. And there's more than a few.
Three to go. And that's for everyone else. I don't need any more to tell me what my eyes see.
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George,
Thanks for the follow-up post. I'm eating my humble pie and i have no problem with that. I just want to clarify my doubts were never based in hate. It was based in the aggregate of his multiple health issues, the mental lows he endured, and mostly that no one has ever rebounded from a back surgery like he had to compete again at this level, much less win this type of event.
Cliches be damned... he truly is a one-of-a-kind and defied very long odds.
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But many on here are too new to know of the Tiger Wars of 7-10 years ago. And I do wish I had kept record of the haters - and make no mistake, most of them weren't doubters, they were flat out haters.
George,
I never hated Tiger, but certainly got tired of him and the Tiger Machine (Nike, Agents, and yes Earl). To be fair, I have no idea what it is like to be a dominant #1 player for years and years and have the Nike Machine ride me for maximum profits.
His Mom "Tida" has always stayed in the shadows and above the noise through it all, and it was really nice to see her out there yesterday:
(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3860812.1555318859!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_685/image.jpg)
His reaction to his Mom and his kids seemed very genuine. I think that Tida's Buddhist influence could be seen on much of that back 9. He was amazingly calm and never forced one shot. Tiger missed a few, but still recovered. People want to point to the "Tiger Effect" today and how his competitors melted, but that was his FIRST ever come from behind Major victory, and who knows, maybe he has a shot at Jack's record.
And just to clarify as a father, I think Earl put Tiger in a ridiculous position:
https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/world-needs-leadership-more-golfers-does-make-tiger-woods-bad-guy
"Tiger will do more than any other man in history to change the course of humanity," Earl Woods said. No kidding? Smith was understandably skeptical, so he followed up: Would the kid do more than Buddha, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela? "Yes, because he has a larger forum than any of them," Earl said.
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And I do wish I had kept record of the haters - and make no mistake, most of them weren't doubters, they were flat out haters. Kalen and Mike expressing their doubts that proved wrong are the minute exception. The rest of them are too embarrassed to admit their were driven by hate and punished for it. And there's more than a few.
Well GP, the first of those posts (late 09) can be found in the 430s of the current archive..and I'll save you the main parts of the search... it was really one a-hole inciting a small disgruntled crowd...that d-bag named Shivas, who's real name was Schmidt I really hope that guy is stuck in an Cambodian airport with diarrhea or something.
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He's had so many injuries, sometimes its hard to keep track. I had forgotten about the torn Achilles Tendon...
http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/10709728/tiger-woods-injury-line (http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/10709728/tiger-woods-injury-line)
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Kalen, Mike -
I definitely wasn't including either of you in the group of haters, as my post says. I, too, had my doubts as to whether Tiger would win another, but my doubts were driven by his physical condition and the realities of all sports at the highest level.
I just recall many many people on here expressing opinions that were not driven by anything other than envy, jealousy, hate, whatever. And I note that none of those people have posted on this thread and likely won't ever share The simple sentence "I was wrong" is just too difficult for many to admit, to themselves and others.
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Someone asked earlier about which Tiger this is, top Tiger or some other version. I definitely think it's some other version. but I will also admit, I'm hoping it's a return to top Tiger. He's older, and physically just not the same; likewise, his competition now - Koepka, DJ, Day, Spieth, and especially Rory (and that's leaving out a bunch of guys who could either raise their games or emerge a few years from now) - that competition is just beyond anything anyone else has faced. The silly notion floating around that Jack's competition wasn't as deep, but better at the top, is simply that, silly (and that's being kind to those who believe that). That defies EVERYTHING that ever happens in sports. It's always getting better.
I've had a long running argument with a close friend about Tiger. I said long ago Tiger had already shown he is the best ever. He still favors Jack, by that single metric of more major wins. After many discussions, and disagreements, I did make one point to him in his favor: Tiger had not yet beaten the next generation of greats in a major, while Jack did, with his Masters victory in 86, taking down Seve, Norman, etc. Well, guess what Tiger just did? Beat Koepka, DJ, Spieth, Day, and many many others, all at or near top form.
Case closed.
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And I do wish I had kept record of the haters - and make no mistake, most of them weren't doubters, they were flat out haters. Kalen and Mike expressing their doubts that proved wrong are the minute exception. The rest of them are too embarrassed to admit their were driven by hate and punished for it. And there's more than a few.
Well GP, the first of those posts (late 09) can be found in the 430s of the current archive..and I'll save you the main parts of the search... it was really one a-hole inciting a small disgruntled crowd...that d-bag named Shivas, who's real name was Schmidt I really hope that guy is stuck in an Cambodian airport with diarrhea or something.
Yeah, Shiv was definitely the ring leader, but there were many others. I know Shivas and consider him a friend and a thoughtful poster on golf course architecture (and law and many other things, too); he just has a blind spot with regard to Tiger, as do many others. My best friend does as well, but I think it's more driven by a love of Jack than a hatred for Tiger.
I just like rubbing it in. :)
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The change in equipment makes it hard to compare Tiger from the early 2000s and now. That said, this week Tiger showed us stunning ball striking. He led the field in GIR, hitting over 80% of all greens. The last thee days he hit 87% of all greens. Did he ever do that in his earlier wins?
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Well.. someone just won 1.2M in Vegas betting on him:
Tiger Woods’s Masters win earns one lucky gambler $1.2 million, crushes sportsbooks
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/04/15/tiger-woodss-masters-win-earns-one-lucky-gambler-million-crushes-sportsbooks (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/04/15/tiger-woodss-masters-win-earns-one-lucky-gambler-million-crushes-sportsbooks/?utm_term=.706c355fea63&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1)
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The change in equipment makes it hard to compare Tiger from the early 2000s and now. That said, this week Tiger showed us stunning ball striking. He led the field in GIR, hitting over 80% of all greens. The last thee days he hit 87% of all greens. Did he ever do that in his earlier wins?
I don't know about the wins, but Tiger in the "early years" was the best iron player in the world, with nobody else in contention.
Between '97 and 2007, he was first on Tour in GIR in 2000, 2002, 2006, and 2008, in the top ten four other times, and only outside the top ten when he was in swing change mode. Even then, his GIR numbers were just percentage points away from the leaders.
There is a better analytic available now, though, again because of the work of Mark Broadie, which is the "median leave" from a given distance on an approach shot. So on a shot from 100 yds, if your median leave was 30', your number would be 10%. For the period that Broadie researched, Woods was the best on Tour at EVERY distance! In fact, Broadie shows pretty conclusively that iron/approach play was the single thing that most separated Tiger from the rest of the Tour in those years, providing nearly half of his strokes gained against the field during those years, and twice as large as his next largest advantage over the field, which was putting.
Nicklaus talked about this after yesterday's win; he commented that even when Tiger couldn't hit the golf course from the tee, he was still the best iron player in the world, and could always get the ball around the green. Significantly, Nicklaus compared yesterday to 1986, saying that neither he nor Tiger had forgotten what to do when they found themselves in contention coming down the stretch on Sunday.
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Someone asked earlier about which Tiger this is, top Tiger or some other version. I definitely think it's some other version. .
I believe that we just saw his best- nominally, not inflation adjusted.
If you put this version of Tiger with his current equipment in a time machine and entered him into the 1997 tournament, I think that he would likely break the 17 under score. But I think that about a dozen other guys would as well.
Today's version of the course is 550 yards longer (31 yards per hole!) and significantly tighter.
With the '97 equipment, he hit an 8 iron into 2, a 2-iron into 8, an 8 iron into 13, and a PW into 15. He played those holes in 13 under that week and most of that was by 2-putting.
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If anyone has the chance listen to the post round telephone interview of Nicholas onothe golf channel about his assessment.
In short he said everyone but Tiger played 12 wrong and Tiger used every slope to his advantage.
I'm surprised there's so little discussion on Jack's post round comments. In typical fashion Nicklaus was brutally honest. It's obvious he's sees in Tiger's game a lot of his own which was to be patient and wait for the others to mess up. He was highly critical of Molinari's shot on 12, saying it was a club and a half short. He clearly had no tolerance for that sort of mistake. We all know Jack's take on the right pin is to aim for the middle of the green. Finau was clearly aiming for the pin.
The end result is Tiger played uber smart and was able to execute nearly every shot yesterday. The result is at 43 he's able to beat the younger flat bellies.
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I understand Jacks point here..
,,,but 12 was the hardest hole on the course Sunday in relation to par. Only 6 birdies with 17 scores worse than par and two triples or worse. Sure you can take more club but going long is no bargain either as it brings the water in play on the 2nd shot, which seems even worse. Just a tough/penal hole especially with that Sunday pin and swirling wind above the trees.
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With the greens slower than normal on Sunday the back fringe would not have been that bad.
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Hitting in the water is rarely the correct way to play a golf hole.
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Just saw an interesting stat. In 1997 Tiger hit 55 greens, or 76.4% GIR. This year he hit 58 greens, or 81%. That's despite averaging 29 yards less off the tee (294 vs 323).
So even though he hit it far shorter this year... had longer clubs into the greens... and was playing a much tighter, longer course, his tee-to-green game looks stronger even than when he blew the field away by 12 strokes (this year he won by 1). Suggests...
a) he may have struck the ball better than ever, at least at the Masters, and
b) the field is far closer to him now that it was back then. If so one reason for this is probably the huge increase in driving distance. In 1997 Tiger led the 2nd-longest hitter by 25 yards per drive. This year he trailed the leader by about 20 yards.
Other interesting stat: compared to 1997 we can trace the entire difference in his scoring to the par 5s. In 1997, he played them 13 under. This year he played them 8 under. Play the par 5s in 13 under this year, and he again shoots 270. Shows the difference when you hit wedges and short irons on your second shots, as he did in '97, against middle irons or even fairway metals, as he did in 2019.
Looked to me like Tiger repeatedly grazed the cup this year at Augusta. He seemed to roll the putts well, but tons just didn't quite fall. Makes me wonder what he might score, if more of those putts start dropping.
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Just saw an interesting stat. In 1997 Tiger hit 55 greens, or 76.4% GIR. This year he hit 58 greens, or 81%. That's despite averaging 29 yards less off the tee (294 vs 323).
So even though he hit it far shorter this year... had longer clubs into the greens... and was playing a much tighter, longer course, his tee-to-green game looks stronger even than when he blew the field away by 12 strokes (this year he won by 1). Suggests...
a) he may have struck the ball better than ever, at least at the Masters, and
b) the field is far closer to him now that it was back then. If so one reason for this is probably the huge increase in driving distance. In 1997 Tiger led the 2nd-longest hitter by 25 yards per drive. This year he trailed the leader by about 20 yards.
Other interesting stat: compared to 1997 we can trace the entire difference in his scoring to the par 5s. In 1997, he played them 13 under. This year he played them 8 under. Play the par 5s in 13 under this year, and he again shoots 270. Shows the difference when you hit wedges and short irons on your second shots, as he did in '97, against middle irons or even fairway metals, as he did in 2019.
Looked to me like Tiger repeatedly grazed the cup this year at Augusta. He seemed to roll the putts well, but tons just didn't quite fall. Makes me wonder what he might score, if more of those putts start dropping.
Jim good insights and stat hunting. Hard to believe he is shorter now with the technology available. I'm not sure what his swing speed and ball speed was back then, but I'm sure it was much higher.
Because of his driver problems, he is using the 3 wood off the tee quite a bit more, which would account for some of the distance loss and that was needed to find his accuracy. I still believe he is the best iron player on tour and one of the top 10 short games.
If he can use his 3 wood more and on par 5's be able to hit his cut driver for accuracy he will always be around because he will hit his irons to places he has birdie looks and his putter was back in the final couple rounds.
As you pointed out the course is totally different than 1997 and kudos for finding another way to win.
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Jim
No idea of how they compile the stats but let me suggest that perhaps back in 1997 Woods was going full throttle whereas as this time there were occasions when he bunted the ball done the fairway with his recently acquired controlled fade. Would that not partially explain some of the difference in drive lengths ?
I think your general conclusion is correct though, in that he's no longer the only big hitter out there. In that regard Molinari's performance was perhaps the most remarkable given how relatively short he is compared to the others.
Niall
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Just saw an interesting stat. In 1997 Tiger hit 55 greens, or 76.4% GIR. This year he hit 58 greens, or 81%. That's despite averaging 29 yards less off the tee (294 vs 323).
So even though he hit it far shorter this year... had longer clubs into the greens... and was playing a much tighter, longer course, his tee-to-green game looks stronger even than when he blew the field away by 12 strokes (this year he won by 1). Suggests...
a) he may have struck the ball better than ever, at least at the Masters, and
b) the field is far closer to him now that it was back then. If so one reason for this is probably the huge increase in driving distance. In 1997 Tiger led the 2nd-longest hitter by 25 yards per drive. This year he trailed the leader by about 20 yards.
Other interesting stat: compared to 1997 we can trace the entire difference in his scoring to the par 5s. In 1997, he played them 13 under. This year he played them 8 under. Play the par 5s in 13 under this year, and he again shoots 270. Shows the difference when you hit wedges and short irons on your second shots, as he did in '97, against middle irons or even fairway metals, as he did in 2019.
Looked to me like Tiger repeatedly grazed the cup this year at Augusta. He seemed to roll the putts well, but tons just didn't quite fall. Makes me wonder what he might score, if more of those putts start dropping.
Jim good insights and stat hunting. Hard to believe he is shorter now with the technology available. I'm not sure what his swing speed and ball speed was back then, but I'm sure it was much higher.
Because of his driver problems, he is using the 3 wood off the tee quite a bit more, which would account for some of the distance loss and that was needed to find his accuracy. I still believe he is the best iron player on tour and one of the top 10 short games.
If he can use his 3 wood more and on par 5's be able to hit his cut driver for accuracy he will always be around because he will hit his irons to places he has birdie looks and his putter was back in the final couple rounds.
As you pointed out the course is totally different than 1997 and kudos for finding another way to win.
Nice stats Jim and nice commentary Jeff.
The differences in this year and '97 were that 97 was playing firm and fast in the fairways (with firmer greens as well)
AND
The firmer greens in '97, combined with Tiger's 25 yard distance advantage are how he separated himself from the field.
In '97 after a 40 on the front nine(at which point I quit following him) he never missed another putt inside 9 feet for the remaining 63 holes.
This year it POURED on Monday afternoon and Tuesday , and rained hard at least 2 other days/nights, and was very sticky and humid all week.
Tiger certainly hits it as far now as he did in '97, but he wasn't getting 50-60 yards of roll as he got by carrying onto firm downslopes in 97, and those downslopes are further out now.
He obviously hit it great this year and putted well, but did not DOMINATE in distance AND putting as he did in '97.
Additionally, this year he had to contend with the increased competition/athleticism he inspired and the impotent USGA have further enabled.
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You may not be able to find them if your aren't a member of BirdieFire, but Scott Fawcett put together three excellent videos on Tiger's ball striking, mental focus, and putting that helped him when the Masters.
On ball striking, Tiger had perfect strategy. He almost always kept it on the fat side of the green. He routinely aimed there and let the percentages work in his favor to hit it close.
On putting, Tiger had perfect speed control almost all four rounds. Almost every putt stopped within 1-2 feet of the hole. He didn't try to make putts. He simply let the hole get in the way.
On mental focus, what is there really to say other than Tiger has supreme mental control. Fawcett played the last few holes of Tiger's shots without audio. You can see the crowd going wild, but Tiger's face is stone cold. Even when he hit it to a foot at 16, Tiger didn't even smirk. On 18, once he put to a foot, his face was that of a stone cold killer. Tiger never reacted emotionally to any shot. He just accepted everything.
He is still far and away the best iron player in the game. His driving is now acceptable. He is a threat every tournament now. If he has a hot putting week he will win fairly easily. With an average putting week, he will threaten to win.