Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: archie_struthers on February 18, 2019, 07:32:19 AM
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5 hours and 47 minutes for a threesome to play yesterday in the final group at Riviera, it was awful to watch. Just couldn't bear to think how bad that would be for my friends and I, what say you?
;D :D
Just don't know how golf on TV can get any more boring. I love the game and just can't take the time to watch them bake the weekly cake. Possibly the only way this changes if tv money starts to dry up due to inability to forecast the time it takes to finish
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Morning Drive just showed JB Holmes first putt on 17. It took him over 2:30 to hit it.
They also showed Justin Thomas taking about 2:38 to hit a wedge or something from the rough on a hole (maybe 16?).
JT is almost always faster than JB, but… they can all be slow at times, too. Even Adam Scott, who wanted the Tour to penalize him to make a point, said "it's never gonna change."
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The galleries should start shaming them. Start chants of “While we're young! While we're young!” after sixty seconds.
Or add one penalty stroke for every five minutes beyond a four hour round. Want to take five hours - sure, but we will add twelve strokes to your score. Doesn’t horse jumping work like that?
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::) :'(
Its really horrible to play so slow ...we have a few guys who really struggle to keep up with the group, but they have improved immensely. Its unfathomable to me to play in five hours much less 5.47 minutes .. totally ridiculous
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I was out at Riviera on Saturday. Walking down #17 and around to #16 we watched the group of Grace, Jacobson, and Uihlein. We realized that the group in front of them was at least 20 minutes ahead. We joked about yelling out something to bring attention to how far they were behind. The pre-shot routines have become ridiculously long. I know the stakes are high, but there has to be a limit to how much time they take on each shot. With all of the statistical data that is gathered, why isn't someone keeping track of "time lost/gained per hole" relative to the field for every player. Position in the field and number strokes taken would also be factored in. Then, like all other stats the PGA Tour keeps, make them public!
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and it all trickles down to your local club.
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::) :'(
Its really horrible to play so slow ...we have a few guys who really struggle to keep up with the group, but they have improved immensely. Its unfathomable to me to play in five hours much less 5.47 minutes .. totally ridiculous
And these are threesome's, mind you, not foursomes. Imagine how long it would have taken had they a fourth in the group? I shudder anytime I see J.B. Holmes near or atop of the leader-board on the weekends, as I know it's going to be slog of a tournament. I have nothing against the person, but I can't stand his slow play. It's agonizing to watch and I find myself rooting against him as a result.
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BTW, here's a link to a great op-ed piece on this very subject following yesterday's final round and Riviera.
http://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/global_golf_post/20190218/fairholm_col.html (http://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/global_golf_post/20190218/fairholm_col.html)
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Where’s Rory Sabatini when we need him?
I actually kind of like Wayne’s idea above. A whole bunch of folks standing close by shouting “Get a ........... move on, get a ......... move on, etc” has a certain appeal. Make amusing TV too.
:)
Atb
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Why, oh why is this tolerated?
If golf becomes unwatchable by hard-core golf course aficionados on television, does the PGA Tour think that's "growing the game".
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I believe the Euro tour tried shot clocks for an exhibition event?
I'm not entirely in love with the idea, but I don't hate it.
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
I'd never call my game "high-level"...but I gave up my amateur status back in 2006.
Uncertain that ones ability should change ones perspective on pace of play. The problem with pace is you only care about it when it's not your fault (or your just an arse). I've been the slow one before (albeit it was likely due to train wreck of a hole and me trying to "keep it together") and I've been with the slow one who steps off 50 yard pitch shots and waits for the right wind.
Either way, without a physical clock and clear penalty, I don't see this problem coming to an end.
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Only as fast as the slowest player in the field most times.
1) need a desire to fix the pace
2) need to push the slow player(s) not the group the slow player is in.
3) shots, not fines.
4) penalties grow
5) with all the statistics, time per shot played/per putt should be done to identify the problem players
But, if a group is easily in position behind group ahead, it’s tough to worry about how long a player takes to hit
I went to the Inverrary tournament as a kid. Watched Nicklaus for a couple holes and couldn’t stand it......went and watched Trevino
I was probably about 10-12?
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
Slow is slow.
If JB takes/needs 2.5 minutes on a shot he's cheating because he's gaining an advantage AND putting me playing with him or behind him at a disadvantage
We have cameras watching to see if a ball movrs, but we're not speaking to slow players that disrupt others flow.
Koepka and Scott are right.
I always root against JB after his ice act at Torrey
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
I'd never call my game "high-level"...but I gave up my amateur status back in 2006.
Uncertain that ones ability should change ones perspective on pace of play. The problem with pace is you only care about it when it's not your fault (or your just an arse). I've been the slow one before (albeit it was likely due to train wreck of a hole and me trying to "keep it together") and I've been with the slow one who steps off 50 yard pitch shots and waits for the right wind.
Either way, without a physical clock and clear penalty, I don't see this problem coming to an end.
My point is not to advocate for slow play. I hate slow play as a reasonably fast player myself. But, as a fast player, it's amazing how a tournament changes things. The allotted time seems to go by much faster to me. In an ordinary round of golf, any thing not less than 4 hours seems like an eternity to me. But, four hours seems to go by pretty quick for a threesome in a tournament. You have played in those tournaments, but for those that haven't, it's not the same as a round with your buddies on the weekend.
Again, I'm not excusing slow play like that of J.B. Holmes. But, the whole - I can't believe it took a threesome 4 something hours to play on Tour - comes from not having played tournament golf. This weekend you needed to factor in the weather (rain will slow you down), the wind (that slows you down more), the wind on fast greens when you have to putt everything out (further slowing), and general tiredness/weariness from the non-stop golf for three days.
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What if you did something like chess were you were allowed XXX minutes of time to hit all your shots for the round? That way you could take longer over a difficult shot but play fast on easier ones.
Maybe for every minute over you add a stroke to your score.
You would need a timer for each group, which would add difficulty/cost to running the tournament.
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The Shot Clock event on the European Tour last year seemed to me to be a fairly simple idea that worked. If I remember right (and I may have the details slightly off) the first person to play on each shot had 50 seconds, the 2nd and 3rd had 40 seconds. Each player had the option to call for an extension once or twice a round if he needed it. Clocks were on a cart following each group and if you missed your time you got a one shot penalty. There were no penalties at all over the first two days and only one or two over the weekend.
Those players who spoke about it all seemed to like it (no doubt there were moans from a few in the background) and the overall pace of play was better.
I stopped watching last night because it was so tedious. If the tours want to attract more people to watch golf (and surely they can see that has to be there aim long-term) something significant needs to be done.
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Byron Nelson won 11 events in a row in less time than it took that final group on Sunday.
You really can play great golf by just stepping up and hitting it.
Watching all those ticks and routines and hemming & hawing, it looked to me like they all had some kind of collective mental illness -- maybe the American Psychiatric Association should pathologize it and call it Slow Play Syndrome (SPS)
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Curious if this issue has grown worse over the years...does anyone know how long it took Jacklin & Trevino to play the final round of The Open at Muirfield in 1972?
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Curious if this issue has grown worse over the years...does anyone know how long it took Jacklin & Trevino to play the final round of The Open at Muirfield in 1972?
What did the winning caddie get paid? Nowhere near $5,000. Time and money ain't what it was 47 years ago. You slow down the game just a tad for everyone with their hand out and you get 5hrs+. Like I always say...JB has a point.
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Even Baseball is addressing this issue and continues to tweak the rules for timely play....
I know the PGA Tour is different, but I don't understand why the snowflakes can't/won't be subject to these kind of rules....
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Fair point, Mr. Kavanaugh, but playing with persimmon and balata could have led to even slower play as each contestant tried to ensure the ball they were playing remained round. ;)
Also, they were playing a few groups behind one Mr. Jack Nicklaus, notoriously the turtle in the field in those days.
Anyone know the total time for Jacko & the Merry Mex?
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
Judging from many years of site-related outings, a very small %.
It is bothersome nevertheless. Played a lower level four-day senior tournament this past week where the average round approached 5 hours on a clean course playing under 6,600 yards in perfect weather. It was hard adjusting from my typical 3-3:10 casual rounds, but no one held a gun to my head.
I have wondered if limiting the role of the caddie to just carrying clubs and tidying up after his player would make a big difference. I am sure that a GPS-based system could be developed to provide perpetual distances from the bag to the hole location, and the front and back of the greens. Maybe the tour could add a time clock to each player's bag that is triggered by a trained official when he should be ready to play (40 seconds is way too long). Pros and high-level amateurs just take too long to hit shots. And too many of us mimic these players without any chance of achieving their results.
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Lou,
Please. You are as slow as anyone who has ever logged onto this site or owns a device that could.
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These pampered pros are on their way to killing their own golden goose just like musicians did with CDs...;-) (Actors are next...;-)
Their cash-cow is getting squeezed on all fronts.
Most markets have the inevitable nasty habit of eliminating inefficiencies. When the corporate $ start drying up and the courtesy cars get downgraded with the lunch buffets, these guys will pick up the pace.
Until then....ugh.
It's not like these pros have a ton of other options, right?
The PGA tour and USGA need to wake up.
Remember when tennis was on prime time Sundays? Yeah, me either...;-)
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Who is getting harmed by the slow play on tour? Are you that desperate for the start of 60 minutes? Once you resign yourself to sit in front of a TV you have sold your soul to the God of boredom.
In all honesty I don't understand what you want. Golf to be over at 4, or golf to start at 3? Isn't it better to know that on a Sunday afternoon that no matter what your schedule Golf on TV will be there for you.
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CBS needs 5.5 hour plus rounds so they can get all of those wonderful adds in. We're all suckers!
Cheers
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Who is getting harmed by the slow play on tour? Are you that desperate for the start of 60 minutes? Once you resign yourself to sit in front of a TV you have sold your soul to the God of boredom.
In all honesty I don't understand what you want. Golf to be over at 4, or golf to start at 3? Isn't it better to know that on a Sunday afternoon that no matter what your schedule Golf on TV will be there for you.
It's a trickle-down.
Your aversion to efficient playing time is well documented here and if that works for you and your partners, then great.
However, for the rest of the world that may seek to do other things than watch people plum-bob (live or on TV), let's get on with it. If you dont have anything else to do, then that's cool.
But, that MISSES the reality changes of the younger demographics and thus your aging views may actually threaten the game more than you think.
"Welcome MR and MRS New Prospective Member" to Lazy River Golf course. (Muni, semi, private...I dont care.)
"Here at LRCC, we believe in taking your sweet-ass time to play golf as we dont think you have anything better to do than to follow a bunch of gray-haired fossils while they plum-bob their bogie putts from 8'."
"Honey, what did you think of Mr. Kavo's description?"
"Lets get the F out of here ASAP."
"Good idea."
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You lost me at welcome Mr and Mrs.
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I do think it is fair to say that golfers emulate their heroes. Saying that, it's not the older established players who are the problem. Golf was fine until we started dying.
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The Warriors race down the floor off the rebound.
There's a quick screen, Steph Curry gets clear just behind the three point line, and in a heartbeat the ball is in his hands. He steps up...
And stops.
The other players stop too.
They all just stand there, staring at him.
The crowd is suddenly hushed; you can hear a pin drop.
Steph dribbles for a bit, then palms the ball and holds it to his side.
Everyone is very quiet and still.
Steph adjusts his jersey.
He stares at the basket, then closes his eyes to better visualize.
He adjusts his jersey again.
He dribbles - once, twice, three times.
It's his pre shot routine, honed down to a science.
He takes one last look at the basket.
The other players get up on their toes.
Steph brings the ball up and back and launches his three pointer.
The ball hits the rim, and bounces off.
The Lakers grab the rebound and race down the floor.
There's a pick and roll and Lebron gets the ball in his hands.
He stops...
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The Warriors race down the floor off the rebound.
There's a quick screen, Steph Curry gets clear just behind the three point line, and in a heartbeat the ball is in his hands. He steps up...
And stops.
The other players stop too.
They all just stand there, staring at him.
The crowd is suddenly hushed; you can hear a pin drop.
Steph dribbles for a bit, then palms the ball and holds it to his side.
Everyone is very quiet and still.
Steph adjusts his jersey.
He stares at the basket, then closes his eyes to better visualize.
He adjusts his jersey again.
He dribbles - once, twice, three times.
It's his pre shot routine, honed down to a science.
He takes one last look at the basket.
The other players get up on their toes.
Steph brings the ball up and back and launches his three pointer.
The ball hits the rim, and bounces off.
The Lakers grab the rebound and race down the floor.
There's a pick and roll and Lebron gets the ball in his hands.
He stops...
Exactly!
Meanwhile, the TV viewers have switched the channel. Worse, the kids have queued up a streaming service that shows golf highlights with the routines and machinations removed...(just a thought)
SHOT CLOCK.
Then stroke penalties.
Then fines.
Everyone plays in the same conditions.
Adam and Webb lost their anchor putters. They adapted.
Give them a range finder and a 4 hour time limit!
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Nice to learn that the NBA isn't boring. If I forget wake me up at the start of the fourth quarter.
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I'm just curious. How many of you have played high-level competitive golf (D1 college, top am, top mid-am)?
I'd never call my game "high-level"...but I gave up my amateur status back in 2006.
Uncertain that ones ability should change ones perspective on pace of play. The problem with pace is you only care about it when it's not your fault (or your just an arse). I've been the slow one before (albeit it was likely due to train wreck of a hole and me trying to "keep it together") and I've been with the slow one who steps off 50 yard pitch shots and waits for the right wind.
Either way, without a physical clock and clear penalty, I don't see this problem coming to an end.
My point is not to advocate for slow play. I hate slow play as a reasonably fast player myself. But, as a fast player, it's amazing how a tournament changes things. The allotted time seems to go by much faster to me. In an ordinary round of golf, any thing not less than 4 hours seems like an eternity to me. But, four hours seems to go by pretty quick for a threesome in a tournament. You have played in those tournaments, but for those that haven't, it's not the same as a round with your buddies on the weekend.
Again, I'm not excusing slow play like that of J.B. Holmes. But, the whole - I can't believe it took a threesome 4 something hours to play on Tour - comes from not having played tournament golf. This weekend you needed to factor in the weather (rain will slow you down), the wind (that slows you down more), the wind on fast greens when you have to putt everything out (further slowing), and general tiredness/weariness from the non-stop golf for three days.
Or we could all stop excusing slow play. We can play faster in competition. The state golf associations are doing a pretty good job speeding up play.
The PGA Tour apparently just doesn’t care enough and doesn’t have the political will to change the status quo. The best players in the world get away with it because they can. The “I’m playing for my livelihood” defense is given a pass because nobody imposes a standard for pace of play. Most other sports have a shot clock and penalties that affect the outcome of the game, Golf should to.
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The Warriors race down the floor off the rebound.
There's a quick screen, Steph Curry gets clear just behind the three point line, and in a heartbeat the ball is in his hands. He steps up...
And stops.
The other players stop too.
They all just stand there, staring at him.
The crowd is suddenly hushed; you can hear a pin drop.
Steph dribbles for a bit, then palms the ball and holds it to his side.
Everyone is very quiet and still.
Steph adjusts his jersey.
He stares at the basket, then closes his eyes to better visualize.
He adjusts his jersey again.
He dribbles - once, twice, three times.
It's his pre shot routine, honed down to a science.
He takes one last look at the basket.
The other players get up on their toes.
Steph brings the ball up and back and launches his three pointer.
The ball hits the rim, and bounces off.
The Lakers grab the rebound and race down the floor.
There's a pick and roll and Lebron gets the ball in his hands.
He stops...
Exactly!
Meanwhile, the TV viewers have switched the channel. Worse, the kids have queued up a streaming service that shows golf highlights with the routines and machinations removed...(just a thought)
SHOT CLOCK.
Then stroke penalties.
Then fines.
Everyone plays in the same conditions.
Adam and Webb lost their anchor putters. They adapted.
Give them a range finder and a 4 hour time limit!
Or, don't bother watching golf on tv. One of the best things about living in the UK is that golf is not free on tv. I don't know how long it would have taken for me to switch off if it wasn't done for me. I can't even be bothered to follow golf when I happen by a SKY laden tv. Watching golf has to be just about the worst sport on tv...darts is more interesting. Its not just golf though...practically all televised US sports take forever to finish a game...its unwatchable live.
Ciao
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I have to agree that the slow rounds are killing the game. I used to watch far more tournaments, but now its mostly just the West Coast swing, cause its winter time and I'm a West coast guy... but only the big tournaments the rest of the year.
As much as I love the AT&T, I just couldn't understand how they were complaining after the weather delays that the final group would ONLY have 5-5.5 hours to complete their round. And sure enough 5 hours later they were teeing off on 15, just insane...
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Curious if this issue has grown worse over the years...does anyone know how long it took Jacklin & Trevino to play the final round of The Open at Muirfield in 1972?
Cary Middlecoff was (in)famous back in the 1950s for his slow play. In one of the Open Championships back then, lots of players complained about him. They were playing threesomes, IIRC, and Cary's group took about 3 1/2 hours to finish the round.
The shot clock seems like an overnight solution. Can some of you point out its downside?
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Nice to learn that the NBA isn't boring. If I forget wake me up at the start of the fourth quarter.
The point is: it's unseemly for so-called athletes and bordering on ridiculous for a so-called game/sport. Athletes can hit a 92 mph curveball with 40,000 screaming fans or shoot a 3 pointer with a 6'7" guard's hands waving in their face (or even drive a Dodge Charger at 200 mph at Talledega with 12 other cars bumping them for position) -- and yet a tour pro can't hit the same stock 7 iron or pitch shot over a bunker or a 30 ft putt that you and I hit in 20 seconds in less than 2 minutes, in dead silence, with no one else vying for the ball? It's looking more and more like a sport/game for dysfunctional dandies & entitled entrepreneurs
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Lets not forget tennis players and Bowlers who usually need silence as well.
I would agree, seems a bit arbitrary ;)
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Good on you Matt Every, the photo makes a great point
http://thestiffshaft.com/2019/02/18/matt-every-has-the-answer-to-slow-play-pulls-up-a-chair-during-tournament/
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I only listen to the Fried Egg occasionally, but Roberto Castro recently talked about slow play on tour during his episode and made some good points. Especially for Thursday and Friday rounds, the Tour doesn't help the issue much with the field size, among other things. At some point, you put so many people on the course that nobody can play fast, whether they're trying or not. It's worth a listen and some consideration.
Easy to blame the players, but the Tour has to do its part, even beyond enforcing a shot clock.
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There are shot clock rules in basketball and time rules for inbounds passes.
I like the idea of an auditory cue being sounded a specifed time after another player's shot is played when the subsequent player can safely be in position to play the next shot. Then the player has a specified time to play the shot. Each failure to meet criterion would be subject to a noe stroke penalty.
They could do comparable procedures following a drop or on the green prior to putting.
I could barely tolerate watching what was going on yesterday. I believe Adam Scott was adversely impacted. Rule 1 speaks to standards for player conduct. Excessively long preshot routines and overly elaborate preparation impacts the routines of other players and disrupts their play.
Charles Lund
Snip
Maybe the tour could add a time clock to each player's bag that is triggered by a trained official when he should be ready to play (40 seconds is way too long). Pros and high-level amateurs just take too long to hit shots. And too many of us mimic these players without any chance of achieving their results.
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Nipple clamps and a twelve volt battery will solve the problem...
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I think I've said it before, but it seems like a chess clock is the answer. Give each player 20 or 30 minutes to hit all their shots for a round. If they have a tough shot that requires two minutes of thinking, fine. But then they will need to make up time on other shots.
You could easily start the clock for a player when he approaches his ball or when a previous player has hit his shot. Once your clock runs out, start adding penalty shots. I think this would be easier to implement and enforce than trying to have a 30 second clock on every shot. Too often it would be a judgement call on whether the player got the shot off on time or questions of that nature.
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Why would one watch golf real time?
I use my DVR, eliminate all commercials and make liberal use of the mute button. Only listen to the talking heads when there is obviously something truly interesting going on. Usually cut the time I sit in a chair from the 4-5 hour actual air time to about 1.5 hours.
Only exception is the final day of The Open or the Masters I may watch mostly real time. But usually with the sound muted. (Especially for Nance at the Masters.)
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IMO
The fix is to change the culture
Start with strong, enforced rules on Web.com tour and the Fall Finish series.
Make aggressive rules, and you have the platform to test them.
Happens in other minor league sports, different rules are tested.
Over a period of time, the turnover of players will have the appetite for it
Until then, we need more Chirkinian production. Don’t show players playing with themselves. Learn their routines, and put the camera on them when they are ready to pull the trigger.
“Okay, camera three, Sergio has re gripped his club 5,6,7 times.....cut to Sergio on number 15”
They’ll be out there the same amount of time, but nobody needs to watch that
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:o
wow if Dr Cary played in 3 1/2 hours I'm amazed. That would be impossible for many of today's players.
Slow play is the bane of golf maybe even more than the distance issue which doesn't effect most of us as much. The advent of swing coaches and guru's on your pre shot routine were the precursors to this new age emphasis on sloth. For golf operators its drain and serious issue as rangers/ambassadors (lol) routinely get into trouble trying to move slow players along. I guess there are a few high powered PGA tour players who really don't give a shit about this issue.
Forget college and youth golf its really out of control. I really feel for the struggling public golf owner who needs to attract play to survive then gets a slug moving at the 5 hour pace in front of the other players. Many times the answer to a request for a little help in moving out is taken as a personal affront and you need a really good communicator to get this situation resolved.
Anyone on board here who tends to hold up the parade try to think of the others next time you play . it takes group think to fix this issue. its also why it pays to join a club, as management and peers can influence the players just enough to help the cause.
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Who makes the rules? Members at private clubs. What drives people to join private clubs? Slow play.
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Here's another blast from the past, this one from the 1953 US Open at Oakmont, about Ben Hogan's slow play...
". "I want to see what they do to Ben Hogan this
afternoon," said Clayton Heafner, one of an unhappy group of
players the USGA had put on the clock for slow play. "We played
in 3 1/2 hours.... It took Hogan 4 1/2 hours yesterday. I told
one official I was going out to clock Hogan this afternoon and
see how fast he played."
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Professional tennis has a shot clock and it has helped the game. Golf desperately needs one as well (one that is enforced). It is embarrassing to watch the pace of professional golf and very bad for the game. Time (cost is a close second) is the single biggest reason the game has dropped dramatically in popularity. It takes too long to play.
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If you experience slow play at a private club where you are a member it is no ones fault but your own.
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If you experience slow play at a private club where you are a member it is no ones fault but your own.
Bull.
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How hard is it really to get one off the first tees times of the day at any private club? I know you millinials love flap jacks with daddy time with junior. Get over it and have the wife pick up some pop tarts next time she's on Amazon. Junior will thank you.
I can honestly say that nary a single golfer has waited on me since I joined a private club for two very good reasons.
1. I play so slow that there is always a hole open in front of me.
2. I let people through on the first instant I see them.
Just to make sure that also is a rarity. Also check who has tee times both before and after your group. It's not that difficult to be happy while golfing if you are willing to make a few small sacrifices.
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"Once he gets over the ball he's pretty quick from there"
Ian Baker Finch on JB Holmes after a 2:36 preshot routine on 17th hole.
He hit his 35 footer 15 feet past and went on to three putt.....
Until more Adam Scotts and Brooks Koepkas(both of whom add to the watchability of the tour) speak out , this won't get better.
JB Holmes adds nothing and is a major contributor to the problem.
Maybe he could watch the replay and see that his deliberation on 17 did not help.
Before someone chimes in on how great a guy JB is (I don't care) and that these guys are playing for millions (so are the guys waiting and playing with them)
I know anecdotally the people I was watching with Sunday stopped watching and I only finished watching because I was taping a show right after the conclusion.
GUys like this didn't MAKE the tour successful, but they sure are killing golf for the average fan who might've considered playing the game.
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If we all stop watching golf will become more affordable.
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Rule 5.6 deals with pace of play. Reading the rule underscores the disparity between actual rules and how play occurs on the PGA Tour.
5.6 Unreasonable Delay; Prompt Pace of Play
a. Unreasonable Delay of Play
A player must not unreasonably delay play, either when playing a hole or between two holes.
A player may be allowed a short delay for certain reasons, such as:
When the player seeks help from a referee or the Committee,
When the player becomes injured or ill, or
When there is another good reason.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.6a:
Penalty for first breach: One penalty stroke.
Penalty for second breach: General Penalty.
Penalty for third breach: Disqualification.
If the player unreasonably delays play between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.
b. Prompt Pace of Play
A round of golf is meant to be played at a prompt pace.
Each player should recognize that his or her pace of play is likely to affect how long it will take other players to play their rounds, including both those in the player’s own group and those in following groups.
Players are encouraged to allow faster groups to play through.
(1) Pace of Play Recommendations. The player should play at a prompt pace throughout the round, including the time taken to:
Prepare for and make each stroke,
Move from one place to another between strokes, and
Move to the next teeing area after completing a hole.
A player should prepare in advance for the next stroke and be ready to play when it is his or her turn.
When it is the player’s turn to play:
It is recommended that the player make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds after he or she is (or should be) able to play without interference or distraction, and
The player should usually be able to play more quickly than that and is encouraged to do so.
(2) Playing Out of Turn to Help Pace of Play. Depending on the form of play, there are times when players may play out of turn to help the pace of play:
In match play, the players may agree that one of them will play out of turn to save time (see Rule 6.4a).
In stroke play, players may play “ready golf” in a safe and responsible way (see Rule 6.4b Exception).
Charles Lund
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I've long supported the Death Penalty for anyone taking more than 4 hours to play a round of golf.
Note the active verb...they are taking time and enjoyment from everyone else trying to play the golf course who is behind them. They are taking people from the game who have limited free time and choices where to spend it.
Bad golf and poor playing is not the culprit...
I still want to see how quickly Trevino and Jacklin played their final round at Muirfield in 1972?
My theory is that the acceleration in time the pros take to play roughly parallels the increases in driving distance over the same period.
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You guys need to make a choice. You are either fans of professional golf or not.
One day they are destroying classic courses the next they are ruining your Sunday afternoons because you can't stop watching. One or the other please.
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I think Pat is right on the money here. It needs to be experimented with and fixed in the lower levels if for no other reason to train the up and comers.
Then once implemented on Tour, sure there will be some initial grumbles and even a few who get weeded out because they can't adapt. But its no different from how the long setups have made most of the short but accurate guys extinct on tour...
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You guys need to make a choice. You are either fans of professional golf or not.
One day they are destroying classic courses the next they are ruining your Sunday afternoons because you can't stop watching. One or the other please.
;D
John, c'mon...I love to watch but it's becoming unwatchable.
I'm like the guy who reads Playboy for the pictures, though. I look at the golf course mostly.
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When you consider the extent to which rules officials go to see that there is absolute compliance in virtually all other areas, the inability to enforce pace of play rules is startling.
The rules of golf are written with enough specificity in most cases that it becomes a matter of establishing the facts and applying the proper rule. With respect to the pace of play, any number of factors can cause a player and the field to slow down. Weather and course conditions are often to blame. Lost balls and difficult setups in the first few holes can back up play for an entire day. Also, a much too common tendency in tournament play to call over an official for even the simplest rules issue bogs things down.
Having said this, I have noticed a reticence in qualifiers and local tournaments to apply stroke penalties even when the player is clearly liable. Conflict avoidance is probably the reason, and often the guilty players aren't in the mix.
I see my role as a very junior official to facilitate play, so even though some OICs (official in charge) don't like that we interact with players on pace of play issues- and some players don't like to be told that they're behind- I generally find a spot after they've finished a hole to provide guidance. I appreciate when players ask me how are they doing on time as it tells me that the starters have done a good job of stressing the pace of play policy.
The unfortunate thing is that most golfers do not believe that they are slow. And unlike Barney who lets faster players through, it is not a common practice at many clubs, specially if the faster players are walkers.
The best way IMO to overcome slow play is from the top- the tournament committee; the head professional and applicable committee at the club level. At a private club, the tee times might be tiered with the first hour or so reserved for fast players and the afternoon for families, Barney and his ilk. Thoughtful course set up helps as does peer pressure.
Setting reasonable expectations for the type of play of the day is important. IMO, OICs are much too liberal (4:45 for a threesome in qualifiers is not unusual). But while building ample time might minimize pace of play issues, it pretty much ensures that all but the first few groups off will take that long (the task expands to the time allotted- Mgmt 101).
Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem. Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues. I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.
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Jk,
Its not an either/or... Its OK to not want them to destroy classic courses and ask they run a tight tournament as well.
But like I've said before as have many others, I'm no golf watching addict and have cut way back on my viewing in the last 2-3 years.
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Does everyone have an issue with watching golf or watching the leaders finish?
I feel that during the middle of a tournament/round, there is enough action going on to show plenty of shots for our viewing pleasure....then everything comes apart when there are 2 groups left and it takes them 45 minutes to finish two holes.
Although ya'll should know I am that guy with the PGA Tour Live subscription that tunes in just to watch featured groups...on a Thursday....I shall recuse myself from further golf viewership discussions as I clearly have a problem.
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This is the aspect of Rule 5.6 that seems most relevant to what we watched on Sunday:
[/size][/color]
[/size]When it is the player’s turn to play: It is recommended that the player make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds after he or she is (or should be) able to play without interference or distraction, and[/color] The player should usually be able to play more quickly than that and is encouraged to do so.[/color]
[/color]The cumulative disregard for these parameters is what turns a 4:15 minute round into a 5:00 hour round or more. I think it would be a good idea to time players and those with the most extreme times for making a stroke from some predetermined moment be subject to more intense scrutiny until their times decrease. Once they are subject to scrutiny, there could be a policy such as verbal warnings on two occasions for exceeding the 40 second limit, followed by a one stroke penalty for the next infraction and a two stroke penalty for any subsequent infraction.[/font][/color]I was actually surprised to hear the announcers commenting about Holmes on Sunday. His slow play has been notorious for a long time. It probably is not realistic to have a 40 second limit for every shot on every hole but it seems like there are individuals who repeatedly exceed the limit by a substantial amount. The idea of penalizing the player under conditions where they repeatedly exceed the limit when it is their turn to play would make sense to me. [/font][/color]In football, there are limits on how long a team has to start a play and basketball has a shot clock. [/font][/color]Charles Lund[/font][/color]
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One episode at Riviera stood out to me as taking the pre-shot routine to an absurdity. JT had chipped within 6 inches of the cup on the back nine (forget which hole); proceeded to mark; toss the ball to his caddie for a thorough and lengthy cleaning; placed ball; removed mark; then tapped it in. Crazy.
I question the group punishment aspect of putting a group on the clock when it is "out of position." It seems that whenever a group is placed on the clock, invariably poor shots ensue. If only one player is slowing the entire group, why should the others pay?
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David,
This was posted earlier in this thread, and would certainly seem to not carry group penalties...
The Shot Clock event on the European Tour last year seemed to me to be a fairly simple idea that worked. If I remember right (and I may have the details slightly off) the first person to play on each shot had 50 seconds, the 2nd and 3rd had 40 seconds. Each player had the option to call for an extension once or twice a round if he needed it. Clocks were on a cart following each group and if you missed your time you got a one shot penalty. There were no penalties at all over the first two days and only one or two over the weekend
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One episode at Riviera stood out to me as taking the pre-shot routine to an absurdity. JT had chipped within 6 inches of the cup on the back nine (forget which hole); proceeded to mark; toss the ball to his caddie for a thorough and lengthy cleaning; placed ball; removed mark; then tapped it in. Crazy.
I question the group punishment aspect of putting a group on the clock when it is "out of position." It seems that whenever a group is placed on the clock, invariably poor shots ensue. If only one player is slowing the entire group, why should the others pay?
Did he triple check the line on his ball was straight like he normally does?
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If you fanboys really want change organize a boycott of the tour sponsors. If every golfer quit buying Titleist for a year they would listen. Unless of course the people bitching don't spend any money on the game. Boycott ball retrievers. That's the ticket.
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Is there evidence that PGA Tour Golf is losing viewership, TV revenues, and attendance? I think that purses are at all time highs and growing. Might this slow play problem at the tour level be more of an irritant to a relative few here than to those paying the freight? Not too many retail and casual golfers among us. We might wish to consider that the big boys are playing a very different game (though I would probably enjoy the tumult created by a few 2-stroke penalties and the occasional DQ- it sure would give the writers and opiners a lot to whine about). I've seen how much deliberation a $5 putt can create at the club level; add four or five zeroes to that and maybe taking extra time is understandable.
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Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem. Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues. I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.
Lou Duran,
My theory is not that increases in driving distance since say 1970 are causing slower play. My theory is that the rate of increased driving yardage as a percentage will likely parallel the time spent per round on the tour.
Just a hunch but I'm confident until proven otherwise. ;)
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Does Pine Valley have a slow play problem?
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If you would allow me to take a devils advocate position for a moment.
And I’m in no way condoning the pace of play seen regularly in tournament golf
On the pga tour, Riviera has a normal sized field, which is actually smaller for winter and the short daylight hours.
So, in the first two rounds, if a group plays the front nine in 2 hours, they would have to wait to tee off on their 10th hole. When the fields expand to 156 even worse.
There is little chance fields can be made smaller, getting opportunities to play is the focus.
Now, after the cut, there isn’t the overlap, AND typically play is in twosomes and the pace still sucks. But playing quickly is not incentivized in those pre cut rounds and as a player you develop a pace of play that fits into the world around you. I literally had to slow down in my rookie year, I spent so much time standing around my crazy assed adhd brain just got too busy. I learned to actually slow my pace to fit everything, especially the first two rounds.
I did play a Sunday round first off with Calcavecchia in just over 2 hours. We both shot 67 and actually had an official come up to us to see if we were actually even trying. We finished 5 holes ahead of the group behind us. The culture is pretty screwed when it comes to pace, but with two tee starts fast is out. But glacially slow should not be acceptable
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Pat,
Exactly, just as a courteous member of a private club will slow dow if he sees some guests ahead struggling. There is no reason to ruin your day and theirs by rushing. Of course this is easily managed by carefully choosing your tee times. Once again...A touch of not getting exactly what you want and liking it.
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Mike Cirba- I think that distance off the tee has little to do with the problem. Pre-shot routines, strategizing with a caddie or yardage book, and deliberations on and around the greens seem to me to be the bigger issues. I worked a USGA Women's Amateur qualifier a couple years back where many of the players (many on college teams) could not pull the trigger without the direction, approval, and alignment by their caddies, even on a 2' putt.
Lou Duran,
My theory is not that increases in driving distance since say 1970 are causing slower play. My theory is that the rate of increased driving yardage as a percentage will likely parallel the time spent per round on the tour.
Just a hunch but I'm confident until proven otherwise. ;)
And I know how well you hold to your theories and hunches! You do know that correlation does not necessarily suggest cause and effect. Perhaps as distance increases, architects toughen up the LZs and green complexes, and staff tuck hole locations to maintain some distant connection to par and historical reference.
I suppose you could argue that longer driving is making these folks do that, so it is indeed improvements in the ball, implements, physical and psychological fitness, technique and practice, evolution and natural selection that are slowing the game down. I can see how one with statist orientations might seek a statutory ban on "progress". Perhaps the pros should be required to play a floater, but maybe hitting longer clubs into the greens will slow things down further; just a hunch.
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Does Pine Valley have a slow play problem?
Good question, and I'm hoping Archie can answer.
I can tell you that any members taking longer than 4 hours at Merion are subject to discipline, and guests playing along with said members are strongly encouraged to keep to that pace.
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Lou Duran,
No floaters but every sport needs to effectively regulate equipment to deal with the physical constraints of the playing field. Even George Crump argued for a standardized ball for competitions and I'd support that.
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I agree with Lou.
Slow players can play slowly with any equipment. Yes, they have to walk an extra 40 yards now and then back to another tee box instead of going to the one by the green… but 18 40-yard walks doesn't add up to an extra 90 minutes on a round, or even half an hour.
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Seems to me the reality is that PGA Tour players, as a whole, want, and at the very least accept, a slow pace of play. A few key players (like Tiger) taking a stand and going to play somewhere else would be all it takes. See the recent articles on shorts during practice rounds and they note that Tiger was instrumental in making that happen when Stevie showed up at one of the prime time Showdowns in shorts. The tour official told him to put on pants or he wouldn’t caddie. Tiger suggested that he would be playing in Europe the next year.
Reality is that Tiger drives the ratings and is the reason I watch any Tour golf at all, which is true for many viewers. If he wanted faster play and put the right pressure on with even just a couple of other players then the players could make it happen. Because without Tiger those purses are going to go back down at some point.
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From solely my own TV-watching experience Sunday...it was SO slow and SO boring that I just turned it off.
Came back to catch the last 1-2 holes and there were 5 to go. No, thanks.
Checked with the golf.com app on my iPad later that night to see who eventually won.
If more people do that and the TV ratings go down which, in turn, reduces ad exposure, the sponsors will eventually complain to the tour.
In the end, "It's all about the Benjamins"... ;D
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Does Pine Valley have a slow play problem?
Good question, and I'm hoping Archie can answer.
I can tell you that any members taking longer than 4 hours at Merion are subject to discipline, and guests playing along with said members are strongly encouraged to keep to that pace.
Of course Merion, or Pine Valley, or NGLA, or Prairie Dunes, or Sand Hills, or etc etc doesn't have a problem. This is a fanboy problem.
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Slow play on tour isn't slow enough if there are this many people complaining about it.
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I agree with Lou.
Slow players can play slowly with any equipment. Yes, they have to walk an extra 40 yards now and then back to another tee box instead of going to the one by the green… but 18 40-yard walks doesn't add up to an extra 90 minutes on a round, or even half an hour.
Erik,
My theory isn't that longer driving is causing slower play, as I explained prior.
My theory is that we've overcomplicated the game in numerous ways between the time I started playing around 1972 and today such that I'm betting the time of the average timed round on tour in 1972 and the average timed round on tour in 2019 follow the same rate of acceleration as tour Driving Distance over the same time period.
Does anyone know how long it took Jacklin and Trevino to play the final round of the 1972 Open at Muirfield, recognizing they were playing a few groups behind the turtle in the field, a hard-charging Jack Nicklaus that day who was vying for the professional Grand Slam?
We keep hearing how these guys are playing for millions so they need 5 hours and 47 minutes, which is complete bullshit.
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Slow play was created by the golfing elite to promote and sustain private club membership. There are few other reasons for the modern golfer to join. We need members!!!
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Hilarious as usual Barney,
If you want to blame anyone, you can put it on the teachers who insist from an early age thier students have a deliberate pre-shot routine and always be willing to re-start it as often as needed...
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That is the beauty of uber penal architecture. No children.
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Mike -
you're suggesting that technology and psychology go hand in hand; that advances in the former are mirrored by an obsession with the latter; that, just as today's players 'need' a 460 cc driver (whereas 190 cc used to serve for decades) so too do modern tour pros 'need' a team of physical & mental health professionals and elaborate pre-shot routines (whereas they used to get by on nothing more than bourbon & bile); and that as course lengths have become irrelevant (with ever increasing distance gains) the pros have turned their attention inwards, to the space between their ears, as the 'driver' of better golf, lower scores, and an advantage over the field.
I think you're on to something: those old pros sure played quickly & well with that old equipment, straw fedoras, 'teams' of one, some late nights at the bar, and no other 'thoughts' than winning every single time out.
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Maybe they had a side piece waiting. Have you guys even played golf?
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Pete,
I don't doubt that, but that's also why any one of the current top 25 would wipe the floor with anyone not named Jack or Arnie from that era....they got all those wins cause thier competition wasn't up to par..
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I liked that suggestion to build time-to-play-each-shot into Shotlink. They already have trained volunteers running that gear on every hole. Just add some timers.
The shot clock doesn't seem that hard either: 18 clocks on 18 carts, 18 volunteers to run them and record violations. You wouldn't need carts on short holes.
Personally, I never watch live golf on TV. If I want to watch, I DVR it. I was traveling this weekend and at a place with no DVR. Dreadful.
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The modern golfer couldn't touch Walter Hagen if they lived his lifestyle. They would check into Passions after the first month and beg for kale infusions. Please never forget that the old guys didn't make a living being on tour. They were hustlers. They had to get off the course to cash out.
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We all play a little faster when the end of the rainbow is at the 19th hole.
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Did you guys see how fast Phil was playing during the final round at Pebble? He didn't want to get home Monday afternoon and find another pair of classic Jordan's in his kids closet.
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I can sympathize that Sunday was a brutally difficult day of golf. I was in LA (not a Riviera) and it was cold and very windy. Those guys had played a lot of golf. So I get they were probably beat and there was a lot on the line and blah blah blah.
None of it excuses the fact that JB Holmes doesn't even bother to be ready before it's his turn. On 15, he outdrove both Scott and Thomas, watched them both play their second shots, and only then when it was his turn, started a conversation with his caddie about what his yardage was. That's not just taking too long over the ball (like a Cantlay) or wasting time hoping the wind dies (which it seems like everyone does on windy days), that's simply awful etiquette. Not only does that slow everyone down, playing with that guy is the most obnoxious thing in the world. What have you been doing while the other two guys were getting their yardages and hitting their shots?
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My theory is that we've overcomplicated the game in numerous ways between the time I started playing around 1972 and today such that I'm betting the time of the average timed round on tour in 1972 and the average timed round on tour in 2019 follow the same rate of acceleration as tour Driving Distance over the same time period.
So, a coincidence? Okay…?
Slow play was created by the golfing elite to promote and sustain private club membership. There are few other reasons for the modern golfer to join. We need members!!!
Keep on trolling.
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Erik,
What is the #1 reason people join private clubs. Slow play!!!
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Tour players aren't slow because they are playing for a ton of money. They play slow because they have a ton of money. Do away with private planes or make them drive to the next tournament and see what happens.
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I am pretty sure that the final group was not put on the clock because they were within CBS's broadcast window. It is entertainment, not golf. But I agree with most of the posits.
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What is the #1 reason people join private clubs. Slow play!!!
No.
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Erik,
Why then do golfers join private clubs?
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As a marginal fan of tournament golf, I'd be pretty disappointed if a tournament were decided by a penalty stroke given for slow play. Not that it would be inherently unreasonable- I could see where it would be entirely appropriate- but just that it would leave a general bad taste to watch a tournament and have it decided that way.
So how about this, instead of stroke penalties, the Tour goes right after what counts, the wallet.
Assume a baseline of 4:30 for each round- 270 minutes. If you finish slower than that, what ever percentage of time you were late, gets deducted from your winnings. So if you finish in 4:57, you're 27 minutes late and you just donated 10% of your winnings to the Make-A-Wish foundation (or something similar.) This way the result of the event isn't compromised, but the point is clearly made.
You can adjust the 4:30 depending on course and conditions, and you might even be able to apportion fault within the slow group if necessary, though I'm not quite sure how that would work practically. Of course, you might need a lot of security to keep a few guys from getting killed when this rolls out, but I think I would prefer this option to penalties. Any chance the players would go for it?
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The Tour’s policy board (with players on it) would have to approve a rules change, which means there would have to be MASSIVE outcry from the sponsors to force the issue. Like it or not, we are a long way from that point.
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It's too bad about the slow play. I very much enjoyed the challenge that Riviera presented the players. It's great how the back nine has three very long holes downwind and five consecutive upwind holes that the player must fight on his journey across the course. I loved watching Thomas and Holmes drill low bullets into the wind. Adam Scott doesn't appear to be as well versed in the low trajectory game. He fared worse than the other two leaders in the brutal conditions.
You may have noticed that Jordan Spieth mentioned after the round that Riviera's conditions were not good for someone trying to find his "A" game, or something to that effect. I think he's right. In order to play your best in a 25 mph wind, you pretty much have to hit low bullets to compete, an adjustment that could put you "out of tune" for a few days while you find your upright, high ball game again.
Anyway, yes I hate 5:45 final rounds. Twosomes ow routinely average 4:30 on the final day of major tournaments. But I relished the challenge I saw on Sunday, watching the guys grinding hard to hit those low balls into the wind. It was fucking hard out there.
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4h30 max for the round
4h35, the entire group 1 stroke penalty
4h40, the entire group 2 stroke penalty
4h45, the entire group: DQ... done deal
slow play is gaining advantage...
imagine a sunday in bening conditions:
[size=78%]Player A tied for the lead, takes forever to play 5h15, finishes just before darkness in the final round.[/size]
Player B tied for the lead, two groups behind can't get to 18th tee before play is called...
Player B has to comeback on monday morning.. temperature goes down 15 degrees, little rain and 25 mph wind in your face on the 470 yards par 4 finishing hole...
player A definitely cheated..
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Erik,
Why then do golfers join private clubs?
Erik,
Please tell me why a woke millennial is going to join a private club for any reason other than to avoid slow play.
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Erik,
Please tell me why a woke millennial is going to join a private club for any reason other than to avoid slow play.
1) Economics 101. It is probably a small number (all golfers) that have the time to make a private club membership "pay off", but if you play 50 rounds a year on a private course, it is probably cheaper than public by the day options. I realize that you are a Fancy Golf Club kind of guy and that number of rounds will be higher for Jaka.
2) Sunk Cost - Once you sink the cost into the membership, you can play 6 Holes, 9 holes, 12 holes. Sure you can pay for 18 holes at a public course, but it is just human instinct to "get your money's worth". At a private club, you can practice and play three holes, and the payment is the same, so you may play more often.
3) Friends who are Members - We all travel in Tribes.
I looked into buying my son a membership at Pensacola Country Club, but it only works if he has #3 to play with.
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Mike,
I would argue the economics of golfnow or other subsidized government golf beats any private course.
Sunk cost. How long does a milinnial stay in one location?
Tribes? Sorry the boy is woke. I suggest you get that way yourself.
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Tribes? Sorry the boy is woke. I suggest you get that way yourself.
We are a Military family (now), and the Military is the most Tribal of anything I have ever been associated with. It is also the most "woke" of ANY Tribe in the USA.
Try again!!
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I didn't want to bring it up but the military also has outanding subsidized golf opportunities. Well deserved that is.
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I didn't want to bring it up but the military also has outanding subsidized golf opportunities. Well deserved that is.
And the fake news continues: :-*
Such scrutiny and claims ignore the fact that since 2011, all of the courses in the continental U.S. are required by federal law to be completely self-sufficient and receive no taxpayer dollars, and the small number of courses overseas get scant funding.
https://www.thengfq.com/2018/09/military-golf-in-the-u-s/ (https://www.thengfq.com/2018/09/military-golf-in-the-u-s/)
Yes, I realize that US-based Military courses did not have to "buy" the courses from Military's balance sheet, and that is the point. The land and infrastructure is still owned by Taxpayers, but if they don't cover their cost, they will be gone.
Obviously Military courses overseas are covered by all sorts of complicated treaties and such.
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No technical solution to the slow play problem.
Shot clocks in golf would be a disaster to implement.
Other sports with shot clocks have only one clock. Golf would need one per group.
Shot clocks are visible to players in the other sports. How to do that in golf?
Imagine the disputes arising when shot clock penalties decide a tournament. Do we get video review? Challenges?
Without a shot clock, assessing penalties is difficult, as it it arbitrary - up to an official. How to ensure that it is applied universally and fairly? Imagine the first time a penalty decides a tournament. Challenges? Lawsuits?
The only possible solution that I can think of is a process of shaming slow players. If the tour kept a "slow player leader board" and TV showed it each week, the slowest players would surface and maybe be embarrassed. Kevin Na seemed to work on speed after being called out. Kutcher was ashamed in the caddie pay situation and tried to make amends. Peer pressure is what keeps play faster at private clubs.
That said, I can't imagine ever watching televised golf without a DVR. I haven't watched golf on TV live in recent memory. I can get through a 3 hour telecast in under 2 hours. I just wait until an hour or so after the telecast begins and finish the DVR session close to the live finish time. 30 second skip button avoids commercials (5 skips), sponsor interviews (3 skips), non-shot fluff pieces. One skip usually reduces the pre-shot waste. Fast forward handles weather delays. As long as the skip button my remote does not wear out, I'm fine.
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Mike,
I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:
http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/ (http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/)
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My only point being. Even for veterans or active duty, why pay full boat unless you want to avoid slow play at the public courses?
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Mike,
I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:
http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/ (http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/)
If you sign up for the Navy, they will teach you how to deal with ocean glare on your phone, AND you get the Military discounts too. Here is a 63 year old Surgeon who just signed up:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html)
They probably do want Asphalt guys to build roads...
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Penalizing groups for an absolute time doesn't solve it.
Everyone behind is screwed and then the dick group sprints the last 2 holes.
There are dozens of people doing God knows what inside the ropes at every event.
Give a large digital clock to the guy who holds up the stupid "quiet please" sign
Use it for a month with no penalties and post ..the slowest 10 players every week.
Then start the penalties.
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Can we have a show of hands from all the "woke" guys on this thread?
Or don't woke guys do that? I'm so confused.
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Mike,
I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:
http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/ (http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/)
If you sign up for the Navy, they will teach you how to deal with ocean glare on your phone, AND you get the Military discounts too. Here is a 63 year old Surgeon who just signed up:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html)
They probably do want Asphalt guys to build roads...
Have you ever see the kill rate for the Seabees? There are some brave asphalt guys out there. I ain't one of em.
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Mike -
you're suggesting that technology and psychology go hand in hand; that advances in the former are mirrored by an obsession with the latter; that, just as today's players 'need' a 460 cc driver (whereas 190 cc used to serve for decades) so too do modern tour pros 'need' a team of physical & mental health professionals and elaborate pre-shot routines (whereas they used to get by on nothing more than bourbon & bile); and that as course lengths have become irrelevant (with ever increasing distance gains) the pros have turned their attention inwards, to the space between their ears, as the 'driver' of better golf, lower scores, and an advantage over the field.
I think you're on to something: those old pros sure played quickly & well with that old equipment, straw fedoras, 'teams' of one, some late nights at the bar, and no other 'thoughts' than winning every single time out.
Peter Pallotta,
It warms my heart and soul on this cold, wintry day that you get me.
You really, really get me!
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Why on earth would anyone involved with the PGA Tour want the Cialis tubs to have less air time? Cialis certainly doesn't...
Local slow play can and should be handled at the local level...
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You can not solve slow play unless the player is invested in the culture of the course.
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And every course should strive to have the people that play there (member or not) invested in its culture...
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Do "woke guys" use Cialis?
Asking for a friend.
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No...they'd be "shook"..."woke" comes next...
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And every course should strive to have the people that play there (member or not) invested in its culture...
While this is very true of the clubs you patronize and I work at and patronize, having heros line up 35 footers for 2 1/2 minutes(before 3 putting) sets a horrendous example for the golf world, and normalizes such behavior making it impossible/very hard work to overcome at resorts, daily fees and elsewhere without an ingrained culture of faster play.
It's already infected the clubs on the tourist rota in the UK which used to be the home of the three hour round-now it's 5 if you tee off after 9 am due to the standard lowering money grab.(and it's not just Americans)
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The only culture you need at a private club is one of open communication. Yes it can get ugly at times. You don't have to call the pro or tattle to the manager. Just educate a fellow member on what he is doing wrong and hug it out.
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I too think penalizing everyone would be a disaster. All it takes is one slow person and now everyone is paying for it, including several groups behind. This ain't Full Metal Jacket.
But I do think a cart with a shot clock following every group would certainly work for individual penalties. With a rare few exceptions like being behind a dune, or in dense trees, it would easily be visible to everyone in the group, assuming the clock is decent size. It would be simple, adapt or play elsewhere.
P.S. I don't think fines would be all that effective either, unless its for a substantial amount of their winnings like 50% or more. Look at how ineffective the relatively small fines levied on Wall Street have done to change bad behavior, needs to be more punitive like prison
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I think it would work to have just one cart clock per hole. There is already a volunteer on the tee to operated a clock/timer. The cart clock guy waits at the LZ, follows the group up near the green, and returns to the LZ when the putting is done. Might miss a few times, but it would sure as hell let the world know who are the slow pokes. As I recall, the shot clock used on Euro tour event was large enough to be seen from the tee on the par threes.
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I think it would work to have just one cart clock per hole. There is already a volunteer on the tee to operated a clock/timer. The cart clock guy waits at the LZ, follows the group up near the green, and returns to the LZ when the putting is done. Might miss a few times, but it would sure as hell let the world know who are the slow pokes. As I recall, the shot clock used on Euro tour event was large enough to be seen from the tee on the par threes.
The disconnect I see with this is how do you handle longer par 4s or 5s when the group is 200+ yards back and/or with a partially blind view? Wait for the cart to drive back to them and then start the clock? Seems a bit counter to the reason of having a shot clock....
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Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic. Ogilvy has two interesting points:
1. Shaming
2. Rewards for fast play
In regards to shaming, he said on the Japanese tour, when players get put on the clock they literally start running between shots. He thinks it is a cultural thing because the Japanese really want to avoid shame from the other players for being slow. Therefore, he thinks that the optimal solution is that the players themselves solve it by the faster players putting pressure on the slower players. His feeling is slow play is ultimately a players issue. Although he did acknowledge and clearly resonated with the entertainment arguments. That’s when Ogilvy went to point 2.
In regards to rewards, Ogilvy pointed out that we have tried dining players for years, decades even. It doesn’t work. So let’s try the opposite. Let’s reward the fast players. He said with ShotLink you know (or could know?) the average time each player takes to hit a shot. Publish the times. At the end of the year give a bonus to the five fastest players in regard to time to play their shot and the five players who shortened their time the most. Perhaps you take the money from the slow players. Perhaps you make part of the prize a reward for fast play.
I think he is right that rewards work better than punishment. That seems to be true of almost anything.
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Should we really be rewarding players for doing the right thing. I mean, I know they are spoiled but rewards for playing at a decent pace ?!
It seems to me that the real problem is that the Tour really isn't interested or it would have sorted the problem long before now. As it is, longer rounds mean longer TV exposure which means the advertisers/sponsors are happier, so where is the real impetus to get something done ?
If they were interested there are various ways that they could sort it out. One way is through the sponsors. Anyone deemed to have played at an unacceptable pace could be prohibited from wearing or displaying any advertising logos either on themselves, equipment or caddy for the next 4 tournaments. Can't see the sponsors being happy with that and as we know money talks.
Niall
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8)
At the end of the day you have to self police whether at a club or on tour. I’m sure some pros abhor the pace of play, so penalize the group that falls out of position. A little WWF action on the tenth tee might bring a whole new fan base. I’m still taking taking Koepka.
Quick answer to Mike C regarding pace of play at PVGC. Hard to really motor there so 4-4.30 typical . If the chairman is in the house speeds usually pick up I’m thirty years removed so my inside info isn’t too strong these days , but I know Jim Davis moves fast !
Great PV pace of play story from way back!
My long deceased friend Louie Black Sr. caddied with me in my youth on occasion. He was probably 55 when I was twenty but tolerated a few of us nonetheless. They called him old man Louie because his son Lou Jr. also caddied.
One day I asked him about “John Arthur” Brown who proceeded Ernie Ransome as chairman. We were out with Ernie , a great guy, and as usual the loop was fast and easy. I asked if Mr Brown played fast like Mr Ransome?
He laughed and told me this story. One day he was working on Tuesday morning circa 1965. Pine Valley at the time was more a weekend place so no one was around that particular day. He was on a job with a group in for a few days from Chicago. They had a few rookies to the course in tow and were super excited to see the course. They had arrived on Monday pm and at 8 am were on the first tee with nary a soul around. Off they went.
Off they went playing some bad golf and struggling with the first four holes. As they went to the fifth tee by the clubhouse Mr Brown came riding down in his three wheel cart from his home on number seven. He said hello to Louie , a fixture there for years and asked where the group was from.
Fast forward a good thirty minutes later and they were still on #6 when Mr Brown rose by back to his house. He appeared to look at his watch as he drove past, or so Louie thought 💭. Lou mentioned to the member that they might want to pick it up a little. Nobody anywhere in front or behind still. Louie didn't get much traction on his suggestion.
As they walked up the ninth green there sat Mr Brown with his loyal German Shepherd sitting on the cart with him. Uh oh, thought Louie!
He was right. Mr Brown warmly welcomed the member, asked about the Chicago weather and then calmly told the “boys” to take the short cut back to the clubhouse with the bags behind the 9th green. Off went the caddies back to the clubhouse.
Dumbfounded the players turned as Mr Brown got back in his cart. His parting reply was "enjoy the soup 🍜 it’s quite good,try to do a little better tomorrow "!
Play was quite fast at PV for a while thereafter!
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Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic.
Did Geoff say anything about a shot clock? That still seems like a quick, effective, low-cost solution. Penalties must be worked out, but some combination of warnings and extra strokes, along with a few timeouts per round, could do the trick.
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Play was quite fast at PV for a while thereafter!
Archie,
Great story and it is that easy for the great clubs and on the PGA Tour.
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Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic.
Did Geoff say anything about a shot clock? That still seems like a quick, effective, low-cost solution. Penalties must be worked out, but some combination of warnings and extra strokes, along with a few timeouts per round, could do the trick.
He talked about it. Said it is an option but he hoped it wouldn’t have have to come to that.
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Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay. Every shot takes forever.
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Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay. Every shot takes forever.
Maybe because he and Rory were waiting on basically every shot?
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Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay. Every shot takes forever.
Maybe because he and Rory were waiting on basically every shot?
Agreed,
From what i could tell watching the last 2 hours today, they were waiting on almost every shot tee to green.
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Good to see Brooks being outspoken on this, especially now that he's high profile!
https://golf.swingbyswing.com/tour/koepka-blames-slow-play-on-stars/