Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jeff Schley on February 13, 2019, 05:42:27 AM
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Just returned from a Australia golf trip and it was my lifetime highlight for sure. 10 rounds of golf –The Metropolitan, Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne (Composite Course), Cathedral GC, Cape Wickham (King Is), Ocean Dunes (King Is), Barnbougle Dunes, Barnbougle Lost Farm, New South Wales GC, The Lakes GCSo a couple impressions:
- The sun can be pretty intense there in the summer and liberal use of sunblock is needed on all exposed skin.
- Melbourne has a very deep bench of courses to pick from and not overly spread out.
- Not easy to get to King Island as you need a private charter, ours was delayed from taking off from Melbourne for 3 hours. Flexibility is the key there.
- Flys can be a pest in the summer, particularly on King Island and Tasmania unless you have wind/rain.
- Snakes are everywhere it seems with warning signs all over. I saw two and hate snakes so freaks me out.
- Royal Melbourne greens are fast! You got to be below the hole at all times it seems.
- Cape Wickham has ocean holes on probably 12 or 13 of their holes. Prettiest course I have played.
- Ocean Dunes is so tight with numerous blind shots and to top it off with very thick grass, like 3 feet high native grass. I lost 11 balls and my playing partner (21 handicap lost yes, 21 balls exactly!). Not fun, but did have great views.
- Caddies aren't typical there, nor are motorized carts
- New South Wales hole #6 wasn't open yet, but wow what a hole!
- Cathedral Lodge is a very private retreat for the very well to do in Australia. A couple very weird holes (Norman's climb is an uphill par 4) and 18 has a couple trees in the fairway.
Here are my humble rankings of the courses along with a brief about each:- Cape Wickham - holy shishkabobs if this was in the US it would blow Pebble Beach away. Wonderful vistas all over the course. You go out for the first 13 holes then for the last 5 after the clubhouse 14-18 are spectacular holes with elevation changes, shots over water and playing from the surf literally on 18. Played this after Ocean Dunes and really there is no comparison IMO, more playable and beautiful golf course. I look for this course to get into the world top 25, it is that special. Historical lighthouse just adjacent to the course is a landmark as well like Turnberry. Again King Island isn't easy to get to.
- Royal Melbourne - We played the composite and the thing that stood out the most was very fast greens with some tilt to them. Have to be below the hole. Numerous 3 jacks or even 4 jacks were enjoyed by all. The other architectural feature were the bunkers which were true hazards, which were deep but with uniform sand throughout fair. Forgiving off the tee for the most part. Supposedly 2700 members for the two courses with about half being active golfers is a little fact I learned.
- Kingston Heath - Great sandbelt course in Melbourne that was a great walk. Bunkers, bunkers and more bunkers. They are not uniform and collected the balls into the middle by not having sand on the faces. Needed caddies here to avoid the bunkers. Greens were large so lag putting was needed. It was a constant focus to avoid a bunker on what seemed like every shot.
- Barnbougle Dunes - We played it in very high winds which contributed a ton to the difficulty. The par 3's were always into the wind it seems and fun offs on half the sides which made hitting them only for the most well struck shots. Several blind shots which would have liked to been afforded a second crack at this one. More exposed to the elements than the sister Lost Farm course. The par 5's were long and very playable. Wish they had more water views as you know it is right there.
- Barnbougle Lost Farm - We played it in constant on and off rain twice in one day as we were guttons for punishment. I really liked this course and almost put it above the Dunes. The par 3's here were stout and stood out with 2 playing around 200 yards into the wind this day. Keep in mind they have 2 alternate holes so if you play both of them as you should the round is 20 holes. Pretty flat except for a couple climbs to the par 3's. The long par 4's played down wind. More trees to frame the course than the Dunes, they also had at least 3 pins in unfair positions IMO like three paces from the edge. Great view of the ocean from the restaurant and rooms. You can't really get a better view of the ocean anywhere in the world IMO, just spectacular. BTW the shuttle to get between the two places takes forever.
- New South Wales - I wanted this to be higher, but too many blind shots IMO and the fact that #6 wasn't open yet. It was also probably blowing 30 mph when we played and if you didn't strike it pure it would balloon one way or another. Generous fairways, but with the angles of the doglegs, it was pretty tough without a caddie to guide you.
- Ocean Dunes - Views were great on many holes, but just too damn tight and if you didn't hit the fairway it was lost. We found 1 ball out of 32 in the tall stuff, have to play it as lateral. Didn't have a good time as it was just too penal for us. Nice property with plans to add oceanview cottages in future.
- Cathedral Lodge - Except for 2 holes it was a very fair and wonderful test. Several shared fairways and generous greens. A Norman course which only has 120 members at this point I believe so they are very successful and accomplished. Great little halfway house with bar b que where the chef whipped up some great grub. They want to have a championship there in the future as it is only 3 years old. Very hilly property and would be a challenge to walk for sure. Greens were very pure.
- Metropolitan - NO SAND in the bunkers, which really was an omission. Hardly any sand, with mud/clay there. Like hardpan everywhere. It is a shame too, because more than any other course their bunkers cut deep into the green complexes and the greens are cut right into the bunkers without collars. Nice parkland design, but hard to get over the poor bunker conditions. Played it in 100 degree heat and although not hilly took it's tool on our group.
- The Lakes GC - Yes the back 9 has water on most holes and some very challenging forced layups like 17 where you can't hit anything more than 230, then have 250 plus into the green for a par 5. It was very windy this day and I played long all day to avoid getting rinsed constantly which led to it's own problems. Kind of tricked up with it's water hazards and not all right in front of you. Not a bad course by any means, but with the bench strength of the above you can see why it was my best golf trip ever.
Thumbs up for Australia. Victoria GC was closed for renovations and didn't get down to the National courses. Love to play in shoulder season when it cools down. Now that I have played it, the President's Cup in 2019 is going to have a great venue in RM. You need putters Tiger, good putters!
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Thanks for the great write-up, Jeff. Definitely on my bucket list, along with NZ!
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- Metropolitan - NO SAND in the bunkers, which really was an omission. Hardly any sand, with mud/clay there. Like hardpan everywhere. It is a shame too, because more than any other course their bunkers cut deep into the green complexes and the greens are cut right into the bunkers without collars. Nice parkland design, but hard to get over the poor bunker conditions. Played it in 100 degree heat and although not hilly took it's tool on our group.
I would be interested in some Aussie's commenting on this. Are the bunkers in poor condition or is that how they maintain them there?
[/color]I did not play Metropolitan when I visited but enjoyed the fact that on other courses your lie could vary from concrete like firmness to relatively thick sand. I found myself inventing new ways to escape bunkers that I still find useful 12 years later.
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Barnbougle Dunes - We played it in very high winds which contributed a ton to the difficulty. The par 3's were always into the wind it seems and fun offs on half the sides which made hitting them only for the most well struck shots. Several blind shots which would have liked to been afforded a second crack at this one. More exposed to the elements than the sister Lost Farm course. The par 5's were long and very playable. Wish they had more water views as you know it is right there.
Jeff:
That's a lot of great courses in a very short trip, so I can understand that you wouldn't remember everything accurately, but Barnbougle has two par-3's that play to the east (5th and 13th), and two that play to the west into the normal prevailing wind (7th and 16th). Getting all four of them into the wind on a single round would be very unusual.
P.S. The only thing stopping you from having a second crack at the course was your own schedule ;)
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Jeff, about NSW, I am always interested that folks mark a course down because of blind shots. I generally find that they add to the fun and challenge.
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Jeff, about NSW, I am always interested that folks mark a course down because of blind shots. I generally find that they add to the fun and challenge.
+1
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Jeff,
Great write-up.
Talk to me about the snakes. Going there in Oct/Nov for the first time and am prepared to take about 50 balls. Hit one in the rough? Nope - not going in to get it. Just drop and play on.
Snakes and spiders are not my friends. But the golf needs to be seen and if I'm to die via snake, I'm sure there are worse ways to go than on a spectacular golf course :)
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Tim,
Australia has the lions share of the worlds most dangerous snakes and spiders. Its usually not an issue with a fair amount of awareness. I was over there in the 90s and we found a Wolf Spider on the back side of our toilet. The most common ones are the Huntsman, but they are relatively harmless and won't mess with you unless provoked.
As for the snakes, they have so many poisonous ones, I wouldn't go near em....
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I have never been, but my suggestion to anyone thinking of visiting Australia is to read Bill Bryson's In A Sunburned Country. Bryson describes a truly remarkable place, but there are more than spiders and snakes to worry about!
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/bill-bryson/in-a-sunburned-country/ (https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/bill-bryson/in-a-sunburned-country/)
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Yikes, I'd rather be confronted by an angry lion than a friendly snake. I am hoping to go in 2020. Do all the courses have them? What about New Zealand?
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David,
Excellent post, and very important info especially when travelling to the northern parts of Australia. But in general when it comes to salt water crocs, dangerous fish, etc, you have to go to their natural environment. Where as the spiders and snakes save you the hassle and come to yours. ;)
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Tim,
Australia has the lions share of the worlds most dangerous snakes and spiders. Its usually not an issue with a fair amount of awareness. I was over there in the 90s and we found a Wolf Spider on the back side of our toilet. The most common ones are the Huntsman, but they are relatively harmless and won't mess with you unless provoked.
As for the snakes, they have so many poisonous ones, I wouldn't go near em....
Good trip notes Jeff.. I was also back in Australia recently and played a number of the courses you mentioned with the addition of the National. I would agree with your comments on Metropolitan.. The lack of sand in the bunkers was surprising given the fact they hosted the World Cup of Golf there a mere three weeks before I played there.
The standard blast resulted in a bladed shot over the green on my first two bunker shots.. You have to take a smaller cut at the ball and kind of skim it out of there with a low bounce lob wedge. Tricky shot with little margin for error.
Yes, there a number of blind tee shots at NSW.. although in fairness they are really holes where the landing area is not visible from the tee. The only true blind shots are from the third tee and the second on #8.
Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
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Jeff,
Great summary and detail on the courses you played. Sounds like an amazing trip.
Jeff, about NSW, I am always interested that folks mark a course down because of blind shots. I generally find that they add to the fun and challenge.
Tommy,
I completely agree regarding blind shots, provided it’s not overdone and you find yourself aiming at marker posts all day.
Blindness isn’t much of an issue at NSW though and I can only recall three blind shots during the entire round. Those being:
1. The drive at 3 (which is a bit awkward);
2. The drive at 5 (which works very well and anticipation builds as you approach the crest of the ridge and see this wonderful hole unfold in front of you...what a view); and
3. The second shot on 8 as you transition from the lower to upper section of the fairway on a par 5.
There’s maybe a 4th if you don’t clear the ridge off the tee on the 12th and end up hitting the second shot from a blind spot in the fairway.
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Thanks for sharing Jeff. Interesting thoughts. I can’t imagine most posters herein would turn down the opportunity of an Aussie golf trip even more so if combined with NZ.
Atb
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Tim,
Australia has the lions share of the worlds most dangerous snakes and spiders. Its usually not an issue with a fair amount of awareness. I was over there in the 90s and we found a Wolf Spider on the back side of our toilet. The most common ones are the Huntsman, but they are relatively harmless and won't mess with you unless provoked.
As for the snakes, they have so many poisonous ones, I wouldn't go near em....
Kalen,
I always thought you were a nice! Why must you put these nightmares of the Wolf Spider in my mind!! ;D
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Jeff pleased you had a good time, looking forward to catching up in May, the flight to King Island must have been poignant for your group.
Will be interesting to see the new 6th at NSW I always thought it a very disappointing hole considering the wonderful topography.
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Yikes, I'd rather be confronted by an angry lion than a friendly snake. I am hoping to go in 2020. Do all the courses have them? What about New Zealand?
There are no poisonous snakes in New Zealand.
In Australia, every snake should be considered poisonous, because the odds are pretty high. When we tore up the rough to rebuild the Ocean Course at The National, I have never seen so many abandoned golf balls in my life, because the members don't go into the rough to look for balls.
I have spent more time wandering around in the long grass in Australia than most people, working on the routing and construction of Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach, and I am still here to talk about it. But, I did see three different poisonous snakes in three rounds of golf a couple of years back, at The National, Ocean Dunes and Cape Wickham -- a brown snake, a tiger snake, and a copperhead. [Their copperheads are different than what we call a copperhead in America.]
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Blindness isn’t much of an issue at NSW though and I can only recall three blind shots during the entire round. Those being:
1. The drive at 3 (which is a bit awkward);
2. The drive at 5 (which works very well and anticipation builds as you approach the crest of the ridge and see this wonderful hole unfold in front of you...what a view); and
3. The second shot on 8 as you transition from the lower to upper section of the fairway on a par 5.
There’s maybe a 4th if you don’t clear the ridge off the tee on the 12th and end up hitting the second shot from a blind spot in the fairway.
Also, if you don't hit a very good drive at the 15th you can't see past the saddle. For that matter, the same is true if you hit a poor tee shot at 14.
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Royal Melbourne - We played the composite and the thing that stood out the most was very fast greens with some tilt to them.
How many opportunities do members get to play the Composite course per year? Are certain club/national competitions held over that configuration?
What about visitors? Is there ever any scope for them to play the Composite routing (other than perhaps as a member’s guest at one of the aforementioned events)?
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To be fair, there’s plenty of places in golf where if you hit a shit shot, your next one is blind. You’ve got to hit a pretty bad one at 14 to be blind for the second.
But blindness is definitely a feature of NSWGC. People who hate blind shots might find it bothers them, and that’s their prerogative.
Re snakes — I am 36 years old, grew up on acres adjoining a dairy that was my playground, spent summers on my grandparents’ bushland property, have played golf since I was 12 and have seen fewer than five snakes in my entire life.
Maybe I’m just lucky, but I think it gets overplayed. Sure, be aware in long grass in summer, but they’re not mugging you as you walk down George St, while kangaroos look on and say nothing!
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Royal Melbourne - We played the composite and the thing that stood out the most was very fast greens with some tilt to them.
How many opportunities do members get to play the Composite course per year? Are certain club/national competitions held over that configuration?
What about visitors? Is there ever any scope for them to play the Composite routing (other than perhaps as a member’s guest at one of the aforementioned events)?
They have members' days on the Composite course a few times per year.
I've been there a lot and have never played it, though. It would only happen during one of the days mentioned above.
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Blindness isn’t much of an issue at NSW though and I can only recall three blind shots during the entire round. Those being:
1. The drive at 3 (which is a bit awkward);
2. The drive at 5 (which works very well and anticipation builds as you approach the crest of the ridge and see this wonderful hole unfold in front of you...what a view); and
3. The second shot on 8 as you transition from the lower to upper section of the fairway on a par 5.
There’s maybe a 4th if you don’t clear the ridge off the tee on the 12th and end up hitting the second shot from a blind spot in the fairway.
Also, if you don't hit a very good drive at the 15th you can't see past the saddle. For that matter, the same is true if you hit a poor tee shot at 14.
Thanks Tom.
I did think of some of the doglegs like 13, 15 and 16 and that you could be blocked out by the trees/bush if you didn’t hit your tee shot far enough but didnt include them as the next shot would only be blind as a result of poor play - as Scott has just said.
I didn’t consider holes where parts of the landing area/fairway aren’t visible from the tee (like 14) either as they’re aren’t truly blind.
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- Metropolitan - NO SAND in the bunkers, which really was an omission. Hardly any sand, with mud/clay there. Like hardpan everywhere. It is a shame too, because more than any other course their bunkers cut deep into the green complexes and the greens are cut right into the bunkers without collars. Nice parkland design, but hard to get over the poor bunker conditions. Played it in 100 degree heat and although not hilly took it's tool on our group.
I would be interested in some Aussie's commenting on this. Are the bunkers in poor condition or is that how they maintain them there?
I did not play Metropolitan when I visited but enjoyed the fact that on other courses your lie could vary from concrete like firmness to relatively thick sand. I found myself inventing new ways to escape bunkers that I still find useful 12 years later.
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tried to blow this up[/list]
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Scott,
I can't argue your last post. I only encountered one snake in my 18 months in Australia, (curled up near the back door on a cool night). And I've certainly seen far more here in the states.
But the problem is, Down Under it only takes 1.. ;D
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We were told the members get 2-3 cracks at the Composite Course each year so a rare treat for us at Royal Melbourne.
Something I did forget is that we saw Wallabies quite liberally on Tasmania. To the untrained eye you would think they are Kangaroos however they are the smaller cousins of them as they are smaller in size. We never saw a Kangaroo proper during our entire trip although we were looking quite intensely. Kangaroos are apparently similar to deer in the midwest/north in that they are overpopulated and hunting them is necessary to avoid a proliferation of road accidents. Lovely animals.
Would like a 2nd crack at the Dunes and NSW; on Tasmania there really isn't anything to do but golf and have helicopter/off road tours so if scheduling again would do Dunes 2x's that day. Tom is right in that all this golf in 10 days runs together and 5 was a crosswind that never helped me fade back to the pin with 7 being pretty much straight into the wind. No one hit the green on 7 and quite funny to see a slight mishit being taken like a kite in the wind. Also some guys went for a dip in the ocean and the water was warm this time of year, but the surf was very heavy so it wasn't really swimming but standing there getting pounded by waves. The dirt runway at Barnbougle is a nice touch as you are very close to the resort. On our King Island to Tasmania flight we had to stop at another airport for more fuel to get there.
Bring extra ammo/rain gear to King Island and Tasmania as you can imagine there aren't any golf shops around so you have to pay proshop prices in a remote area. You absolutely need rain gloves! If you don't have them you are totally screwed for the rain starts and stops multiple times during the round.
Can't remember ANY negative interactions with Aussies at any of the courses, most were genuinely nice and very welcoming as several of the courses are member's only courses, with some outside/international play available. Much less stuffy than a typical private club in the states. I gave my contact info to probably a dozen or so Aussies when talking in the bar/clubhouse and have already heard from 3. Very welcoming bunch and think they could teach many in the states how to welcome outsiders.
In our group we saw a total of 5 snakes, with me seeing 2 of the 5. One was in the fairway and multiple groups saw it. Again I don't care what it looks like I'm running the opposite way. The last was at NSW right by the clubhouse after finishing on 18.
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With all the talk of snakes think I could wear something like this instead of the knee high sock?
https://www.amazon.com/Snake-Gaiters-Protection-Khaki-Large/dp/B00L9KRVCU
;)
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Am still dithering if an Australia trip is still realistic for me. If I go, my planning for King Island is to leave my clubs behind and go commercial, making KI and Tasmania separate trips.
Surprised that Metropolitan had bunker sand problems. Always thought sandbelt courses had natural sand below the surface. Could
the tournament preparations required a different sand for competitors' preference, and you got there during the transition?
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- Metropolitan - NO SAND in the bunkers, which really was an omission. Hardly any sand, with mud/clay there. Like hardpan everywhere. It is a shame too, because more than any other course their bunkers cut deep into the green complexes and the greens are cut right into the bunkers without collars. Nice parkland design, but hard to get over the poor bunker conditions. Played it in 100 degree heat and although not hilly took it's tool on our group.
I would be interested in some Aussie's commenting on this. Are the bunkers in poor condition or is that how they maintain them there?
I did not play Metropolitan when I visited but enjoyed the fact that on other courses your lie could vary from concrete like firmness to relatively thick sand. I found myself inventing new ways to escape bunkers that I still find useful 12 years later.
I caddie and play at the Sandbelt courses on a regular basis and find Metropolitan's bunkers to be the most consistent - although they are probably the most consistently firm. Metropolitan is right at the northern edge of the sandbelt, so it's not blessed with as much sand as the courses closer to Port Phillip. I had a foursome of Americans today that said the exact same thing as Jeff "there's no sand in these bunkers". The trick to very firm bunkers is hitting down hard on the ball with an open club face (it also helps to have a low-bounce wedge). A too shallow strike with not enough speed will have the sole of the club bouncing off the sand into the ball. A steeper and harder strike cuts through the firm sand and pops the ball up in the air. I find these bunkers easier to play than ones with more sand! After teaching my foursome today how to play these shots they no longer had problems. I wish I'd caddied for you, Jeff, when you were down here as I'm sure you would have had a more enjoyable experience if you'd been able to successfully recover from the traps!
The firmness of the sand actually allows for the steep firm faces, intricate shaping and mowing right to the edges of the bunkers that Metropolitan is famous for.
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
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- Metropolitan - NO SAND in the bunkers, which really was an omission. Hardly any sand, with mud/clay there. Like hardpan everywhere. It is a shame too, because more than any other course their bunkers cut deep into the green complexes and the greens are cut right into the bunkers without collars. Nice parkland design, but hard to get over the poor bunker conditions. Played it in 100 degree heat and although not hilly took it's tool on our group.
I would be interested in some Aussie's commenting on this. Are the bunkers in poor condition or is that how they maintain them there?
I did not play Metropolitan when I visited but enjoyed the fact that on other courses your lie could vary from concrete like firmness to relatively thick sand. I found myself inventing new ways to escape bunkers that I still find useful 12 years later.
I caddie and play at the Sandbelt courses on a regular basis and find Metropolitan's bunkers to be the most consistent - although they are probably the most consistently firm. Metropolitan is right at the northern edge of the sandbelt, so it's not blessed with as much sand as the courses closer to Port Phillip. I had a foursome of Americans today that said the exact same thing as Jeff "there's no sand in these bunkers". The trick to very firm bunkers is hitting down hard on the ball with an open club face (it also helps to have a low-bounce wedge). A too shallow strike with not enough speed will have the sole of the club bouncing off the sand into the ball. A steeper and harder strike cuts through the firm sand and pops the ball up in the air. I find these bunkers easier to play than ones with more sand! After teaching my foursome today how to play these shots they no longer had problems. I wish I'd caddied for you, Jeff, when you were down here as I'm sure you would have had a more enjoyable experience if you'd been able to successfully recover from the traps!
The firmness of the sand actually allows for the steep firm faces, intricate shaping and mowing right to the edges of the bunkers that Metropolitan is famous for.
Thanks Lukas we would have loved you. I had a young chap named Charlie Wacket, 19 yo and I think a member there. Great kid as a caddie.
Metro I know is famous for their cliff like bunkers that cut into the greens and posed quite a challenge. I certainly don't recall playing any course like it with what I would call "no sand" like Metro. Is this indeed the way they are always kept? None of the others we played were similar, which caused to me to think perhaps they were waiting on a truck full of sand to distribute. Would be very unique if this is indeed a feature of the course and as you say, one Americans are used to. Lovely walk.
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The only objectionable thing to Australian and New Zealand golf is duel pricing, with foreigners paying far more to play than nationals.
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It is great you had such a wonderful trip Jeff
I always enjoy Metro's bunkers, always firm and consistent. If you are confident and have the right wedge you can play them well
as Lukas suggests
If you have the wrong club or technique that is not perfect they can be nasty
Tim, October / November is generally too early in the season for too many snakes, and in 7 trips to King Island I have seen 2 snakes and at Barnbougle, 6 trips and I cannot remember seeing a snake
and at the National, over many years I recall seeing 1 snake
Scott, I am up there in a couple of weeks, it would be great to catch up for a beer
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As someone who has had the experience of being far too close to both Aussie snakes and elsewhere bears in the past I have no desire to get near either ever again. And certainly no crocs and the like.
As to Aussie snakes, when I mentioned my experience to an Aussie mate with a wicked sense of humour his reply was along the lines of “Aussie snakes ain’t that poisonous. If you want to experience really poisonous snakes visit Parliament”! Ouch!
Atb
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Yikes, I'd rather be confronted by an angry lion than a friendly snake. I am hoping to go in 2020. Do all the courses have them? What about New Zealand?
About 15 years ago I was playing at NSW and ran into an a local indigineous bloke on the 4th hole.
This hole sees the heaviest black snake traffic on the course due to the club reservoir just to the left of the fairway. As we walked towards my tee-shot, I remarked we were lucky not too have many brown snakes left on the property since black snakes like to eat them, He said there were still a couple of areas on the course where they could be found..
About two hours later, the same guy appeared out of the bush on the left hand side of the 13th hole casually holding up a 4-foot snake with an old 9 iron. He waved me over; "Look mate, found this fella just off the fairway! Check him out..."
As I got closer, I saw he was indeed handling an Eastern Brown Snake. (For those of you not familiar with Australia's poisonous reptiles, even though an Eastern Brown might represent a tasty meal to the larger Black Snake, it is also an animal that could kill a human with just one bite.)
"Yeah mate, quite a few in this little patch here... Stayin' away from the black snakes, I reckon..."
I immediately started taking a more conservative line over the dogleg on this hole..
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It is great you had such a wonderful trip Jeff
I always enjoy Metro's bunkers, always firm and consistent. If you are confident and have the right wedge you can play them well
as Lukas suggests
If you have the wrong club or technique that is not perfect they can be nasty
Tim, October / November is generally too early in the season for too many snakes, and in 7 trips to King Island I have seen 2 snakes and at Barnbougle, 6 trips and I cannot remember seeing a snake
and at the National, over many years I recall seeing 1 snake
Scott, I am up there in a couple of weeks, it would be great to catch up for a beer
Thanks Andrew,
Now your stats there - is that going into the rough to find golf balls, or is that being quite conservative? I'll be playing with a few locals hopefully, but at Barnbougle will likely be by myself. Just wondering if I should venture into semi-rough if I see my ball, or just drop one and let it be!
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.. I would also nominate the 9th, 10th and 11th in that category. Also the second shot on 15. The 12th is a par 3 in which you can't quite see the surface of the hole but you can see the pin and the outlines of the green surface, so not a blind tee shot in my view.
The 13th is particularly bad... I almost killed a lady on the fairway last time despite waiting over 10 mins on the tee before hitting. Not sure what she was doing all that time, but she wasn't in the mood to ask.
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;D
Tommy , Tim I'm shoving all in also on blind shots , love em! Especially if they are tee shots on par fours and fives that are uphill to boot...
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Jeff,
Nice report on your trip and glad you made it over to KI for Cape Wickham! Were you with a group? Sorry if I missed that fact - just wondering if your report is only your thoughts or if the group had other thoughts worth noting? For the record, I like your humble order! ;D
You flew one of the charter services but there are regular, daily commercial flights to/from KI from Tullamarine and Essendon (older big airport near Tullamarine) airports on bigger planes or Moorabbin (next to Kingston Heath) on King Island Airlines' 10-seaters. Vortex and other charter services also do a great job of serving King Island, so if you are planning ahead, you shouldn't have an issue. I have flown back and forth on all of the various options (even in a helicopter once - that was very cool to see everything) and really did not have problems with delays or rough air. Granted, I am a seasoned traveler that doesn't really get airsick, but I don't ever recall a bumpy ride in or out or any dicey landings, etc.
The snake warnings are really for awareness but I get people's fears. I beat around in the bush before, during, and after construction and only saw two snakes the whole time and those were hard to see. Post opening, I did see one sunning on the 14th fairway but he just slithered away and didn't even get close to us, nor us to him. We had a formal snake class for construction, as we are at least 30-40 minutes from the hospital on the island. Key thing, though, is that there has not been a serious snake bite on KI in over 35 years and that person still lived. I think it is good to be careful but don't panic about it.
Wish I had been there with you - been too long since I have been over!
Cheers,
Mike
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I saw a snake at Cathedral Lodge a few weeks ago - the 4th snake I've seen on an Australian golf course in 50 years. It's a massively over-rated fear.
No sand in the bunkers at Metro? I've played there for 45 years and never found that - but I've seen many Americans struggle with the shots they have to play. As Lukas says you have to adapt your technique to handle the shots you occasionally find.
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I think these last couple of posts are on to something:
35 - Number of known snake bite deaths in Australia from 2000 to 2016
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/more-than-half-australian-snake-bite-deaths-since-2000-occurred-at-victims-home (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/more-than-half-australian-snake-bite-deaths-since-2000-occurred-at-victims-home)
In the US, that number is estimated at 1,400 to 1,600 per year! :o :o
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/ (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/)
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I think these last couple of posts are on to something:
35 - Number of known snake bite deaths in Australia from 2000 to 2016
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/more-than-half-australian-snake-bite-deaths-since-2000-occurred-at-victims-home (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/more-than-half-australian-snake-bite-deaths-since-2000-occurred-at-victims-home)
In the US, that number is estimated at 1,400 to 1,600 per year! :o :o
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/ (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/)
Populations USA 325M, AU 25M
Checked Wikipedia and the US has had 23 fatal snakebites since the beginning of 2010, some by "handlers".
The latest one (June 2018) has significance:
Spearfish, Lawrence County, South Dakota. Walters was playing golf at the Elkhorn Ridge Golf Course in Spearfish. He was looking for a ball in tall grass when he was bitten on the ankle. He was rushed back to the clubhouse in a cart where another employee performed CPR until an ambulance arrived, but was pronounced dead at Spearfish hospital..[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United_States#cite_note-8) .
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Jeff,
Nice report on your trip and glad you made it over to KI for Cape Wickham! Were you with a group? Sorry if I missed that fact - just wondering if your report is only your thoughts or if the group had other thoughts worth noting? For the record, I like your humble order! ;D
You flew one of the charter services but there are regular, daily commercial flights to/from KI from Tullamarine and Essendon (older big airport near Tullamarine) airports on bigger planes or Moorabbin (next to Kingston Heath) on King Island Airlines' 10-seaters. Vortex and other charter services also do a great job of serving King Island, so if you are planning ahead, you shouldn't have an issue. I have flown back and forth on all of the various options (even in a helicopter once - that was very cool to see everything) and really did not have problems with delays or rough air. Granted, I am a seasoned traveler that doesn't really get airsick, but I don't ever recall a bumpy ride in or out or any dicey landings, etc.
The snake warnings are really for awareness but I get people's fears. I beat around in the bush before, during, and after construction and only saw two snakes the whole time and those were hard to see. Post opening, I did see one sunning on the 14th fairway but he just slithered away and didn't even get close to us, nor us to him. We had a formal snake class for construction, as we are at least 30-40 minutes from the hospital on the island. Key thing, though, is that there has not been a serious snake bite on KI in over 35 years and that person still lived. I think it is good to be careful but don't panic about it.
Wish I had been there with you - been too long since I have been over!
Cheers,
Mike
Mike,
You or Darius would have had a lot of drinks bought for you as the group overwhelmingly loved Cape Wickham. It certainly wasn't just myself who loved the site and course. One guy in the group has played 99 of the top 100 (missing ANGC), and he said this course was in his top 5 and exceeds Pebble Beach. In my foursome, another buddy who has played around 70 of the top 100, after pulling up to hole 17 said, "this course has quickly moved into my top 5 of all time."
After our trip was done we briefly went around and talked about our favorite courses and what stood out after playing all of them. What I can remember is:- The group was split between Royal Melbourne or Cape Wickham being their favorite overall. Conditions at RM the day we played were fabulous and obviously at CW the weather rolled in and out with rain coming down several times during the day with probably 20-25 mph gusts throughout. RM hosting this year's President's Cup did add to the cache of the visit.
- We tried to take out the conditions of the day to equalize the playing field because no one can control the weather.
- Metro was 100 plus degrees when we played it and our first round, thus in retrospect it was more fair to look at in after playing all the others. I know many here are saying the bunkers are what they are, but it seemed everyone was not used to that style in the group. Certainly we also found the bunkers more often as they are positioned cutting into the green without collars and yield many balls running off the green into them. This is a feature many liked, but the sand being so compacted and hard was foreign to the group and rightly or wrongly was seen as a negative. Hole 14 there stood out as outstanding btw.
- Ocean Dunes played with high winds and seeing as the fairways were not being watered and brown they were fast which led to many lost balls. Once off the fairway it was just too hard to find the balls in the tall grass. Wind, fast fairways, and tall grass really took away from the lovely setting which was very picturesque. One in the group shot lights out that day somehow with 42 stableford points and he hits a very low draw and didn't seem to have a problem there. When they get their cottages/cabins in the next year or two it will be a very nice complement to CW.
- Some guys played extra golf at Commonwealth while in Melbourne and compared to the other courses it was seen as just OK. I didn't go there.
- Some guys played Yarra Yarra and said give that course 5 years to mature and it will be on some lists for sure. I didn't play it myself.
- Barnbougle Dunes and Lost Farm were helpful to discuss because they were played on consecutive days and the holes tended to run together in people's minds. Both were deemed outstanding, with 2/3 of the group favoring Dunes over LF. I'm a big C&C fan and as I said almost had LF ahead of the Dunes. Perhaps after being spoiled by King Island ocean views so consistently, the group was disappointed there weren't more ocean view holes. Make no mistake both courses did get Top 100 accolades from everyone certainly, but at this level you are deciding which diamonds are best so best to keep it in perspective. I like golfing in the elements myself, but some in the group were running for cover with sporadic rain. I truly believe it adds to the character of the location (like the UK). Most hadn't looked up the website (i didn't) as I like to be surprised by the course when I get there. Everyone noted the LF restaurant which overlooks the ocean from above as their favorite view on the trip.
- As we didn't have forecaddies/caddies at NSW and most didn't get a yardage book, it had quite a few blind shots and with the wind blowing in probably 25 mph gusts the lines off the tees and approaches you couldn't see ended up screwing us. Hole 3 for example, I was the only one in the group to hit the fairway and I thought I hooked my drive with a 5 wood. 1 was lost and the 2 others were long right behind bushes/trees. Some of these issues would be gone when playing a 2nd/3rd time. Also 15 and 16 were playing like par 5's our day and very tough, 15 in particular with "crushed" 210 yard drives which still left blind approaches from the fairway.
- Cathedral Lodge from the group was seen as just a good golf course, but the isolation and extremely private club added some allure. It was so hilly and unusual compared to the other courses most had it well down their lists. However we had a match against members that day and I loved the ambience, thus had it higher for myself.
- The Lakes GC obviously has a huge amount of water hazards which was unique to the lineup. I know Mike Clayton did some work there to clear trees/brush and I'm thanking him for that, as the tee shots were pretty clear to the eye because of this. You just had to factor in the water hazards on the back.
- Aussies were very warm and inviting to all in the group everywhere we went, I didn't hear of a single complaint and I certainly had none. You share a love of golf and you have a friend there.
I was with a group and we did indeed take Vortex, who were cautious and watched the weather closely with the pilot informing the group of why we were delayed and his estimate for takeoff (3 hours after schedule) was spot on. We had three planes, 2 for passengers and 1 for luggage/golf clubs. Great to know there are commercial possibilities as with only 1500 residents that is a lifeline needed.
Mike, well done at CW and also Clayton/Doak for your work at the Dunes course. Again these are my humble opinions and don't claim any special qualifications as a bogey golfer. However, it truly was the golf trip of my life playing this lineup in 10 days.
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Jeff mentioned the sun in his initial post, and no-one has mentioned it since.It is a real issue for people from the northern hemisphere, as you can't assume the sun won't burn in the same weather conditions.
Sun tan cream is a must, although physical barriers (long sleeves, hats, gloves, sun glasses) are better.
You can get burnt on cloudy days, and on days when it is only 20 degrees (about 70).Try to be the least burnt member in your golf party, and you'll have a lot better time over a golf week.
James B
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Jeff,
Nice report on your trip and glad you made it over to KI for Cape Wickham! Were you with a group? Sorry if I missed that fact - just wondering if your report is only your thoughts or if the group had other thoughts worth noting? For the record, I like your humble order! ;D
You flew one of the charter services but there are regular, daily commercial flights to/from KI from Tullamarine and Essendon (older big airport near Tullamarine) airports on bigger planes or Moorabbin (next to Kingston Heath) on King Island Airlines' 10-seaters. Vortex and other charter services also do a great job of serving King Island, so if you are planning ahead, you shouldn't have an issue. I have flown back and forth on all of the various options (even in a helicopter once - that was very cool to see everything) and really did not have problems with delays or rough air. Granted, I am a seasoned traveler that doesn't really get airsick, but I don't ever recall a bumpy ride in or out or any dicey landings, etc.
The snake warnings are really for awareness but I get people's fears. I beat around in the bush before, during, and after construction and only saw two snakes the whole time and those were hard to see. Post opening, I did see one sunning on the 14th fairway but he just slithered away and didn't even get close to us, nor us to him. We had a formal snake class for construction, as we are at least 30-40 minutes from the hospital on the island. Key thing, though, is that there has not been a serious snake bite on KI in over 35 years and that person still lived. I think it is good to be careful but don't panic about it.
Wish I had been there with you - been too long since I have been over!
Cheers,
Mike
Mike,
You or Darius would have had a lot of drinks bought for you as the group overwhelmingly loved Cape Wickham. It certainly wasn't just myself who loved the site and course. One guy in the group has played 99 of the top 100 (missing ANGC), and he said this course was in his top 5 and exceeds Pebble Beach. In my foursome, another buddy who has played around 70 of the top 100, after pulling up to hole 17 said, "this course has quickly moved into my top 5 of all time."
After our trip was done we briefly went around and talked about our favorite courses and what stood out after playing all of them. What I can remember is:- The group was split between Royal Melbourne or Cape Wickham being their favorite overall. Conditions at RM the day we played were fabulous and obviously at CW the weather rolled in and out with rain coming down several times during the day with probably 20-25 mph gusts throughout. RM hosting this year's President's Cup did add to the cache of the visit.
- We tried to take out the conditions of the day to equalize the playing field because no one can control the weather.
- Metro was 100 plus degrees when we played it and our first round, thus in retrospect it was more fair to look at in after playing all the others. I know many here are saying the bunkers are what they are, but it seemed everyone was not used to that style in the group. Certainly we also found the bunkers more often as they are positioned cutting into the green without collars and yield many balls running off the green into them. This is a feature many liked, but the sand being so compacted and hard was foreign to the group and rightly or wrongly was seen as a negative. Hole 14 there stood out as outstanding btw.
- Ocean Dunes played with high winds and seeing as the fairways were not being watered and brown they were fast which led to many lost balls. Once off the fairway it was just too hard to find the balls in the tall grass. Wind, fast fairways, and tall grass really took away from the lovely setting which was very picturesque. One in the group shot lights out that day somehow with 42 stableford points and he hits a very low draw and didn't seem to have a problem there. When they get their cottages/cabins in the next year or two it will be a very nice complement to CW.
- Some guys played extra golf at Commonwealth while in Melbourne and compared to the other courses it was seen as just OK. I didn't go there.
- Some guys played Yarra Yarra and said give that course 5 years to mature and it will be on some lists for sure. I didn't play it myself.
- Barnbougle Dunes and Lost Farm were helpful to discuss because they were played on consecutive days and the holes tended to run together in people's minds. Both were deemed outstanding, with 2/3 of the group favoring Dunes over LF. I'm a big C&C fan and as I said almost had LF ahead of the Dunes. Perhaps after being spoiled by King Island ocean views so consistently, the group was disappointed there weren't more ocean view holes. Make no mistake both courses did get Top 100 accolades from everyone certainly, but at this level you are deciding which diamonds are best so best to keep it in perspective. I like golfing in the elements myself, but some in the group were running for cover with sporadic rain. I truly believe it adds to the character of the location (like the UK). Most hadn't looked up the website (i didn't) as I like to be surprised by the course when I get there. Everyone noted the LF restaurant which overlooks the ocean from above as their favorite view on the trip.
- As we didn't have forecaddies/caddies at NSW and most didn't get a yardage book, it had quite a few blind shots and with the wind blowing in probably 25 mph gusts the lines off the tees and approaches you couldn't see ended up screwing us. Hole 3 for example, I was the only one in the group to hit the fairway and I thought I hooked my drive with a 5 wood. 1 was lost and the 2 others were long right behind bushes/trees. Some of these issues would be gone when playing a 2nd/3rd time. Also 15 and 16 were playing like par 5's our day and very tough, 15 in particular with "crushed" 210 yard drives which still left blind approaches from the fairway.
- Cathedral Lodge from the group was seen as just a good golf course, but the isolation and extremely private club added some allure. It was so hilly and unusual compared to the other courses most had it well down their lists. However we had a match against members that day and I loved the ambience, thus had it higher for myself.
- The Lakes GC obviously has a huge amount of water hazards which was unique to the lineup. I know Mike Clayton did some work there to clear trees/brush and I'm thanking him for that, as the tee shots were pretty clear to the eye because of this. You just had to factor in the water hazards on the back.
- Aussies were very warm and inviting to all in the group everywhere we went, I didn't hear of a single complaint and I certainly had none. You share a love of golf and you have a friend there.
I was with a group and we did indeed take Vortex, who were cautious and watched the weather closely with the pilot informing the group of why we were delayed and his estimate for takeoff (3 hours after schedule) was spot on. We had three planes, 2 for passengers and 1 for luggage/golf clubs. Great to know there are commercial possibilities as with only 1500 residents that is a lifeline needed.
Mike, well done at CW and also Clayton/Doak for your work at the Dunes course. Again these are my humble opinions and don't claim any special qualifications as a bogey golfer. However, it truly was the golf trip of my life playing this lineup in 10 days.
Jeff,
Many thanks for the additional commentary. I love to hear everyone's perspective, whether they are low or high handicappers. Golf is meant to be fun and it is not the same for every golfer, so it is interesting to hear the differences. It certainly sounds like your group of "golfers" is well-traveled and, to me, that gives them a breadth of experience to compare new courses with ones they have seen. That the group was tussling between RM and CW is a high compliment and is always nice to hear. Your trip is an A-list selection and one everyone should try to do at least once in their life - definitely worth it! Too bad Victoria was closed, as it is my third favorite in the Sand Belt (RM-W and KH) and they have nice dormie rooms and are very hospitable to guests there. As you noted, the Aussies are wonderful hosts and love the game, and I have always found a friendly golfer to talk about the game, no matter the spot.
Vortex does a great job - perfect for a group and very accommodating to golfers. Good to have services like theirs to get to these remote (although not "that" remote, only 40 minutes to KI) golf courses that are so fun to play.
Cheers,
Mike
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Thanks for the detailed comments regarding your trip Jeff. While I find some of the comments in stark contrast to my own experiences and views, it is always stimulating to get the thoughts of passionate & widely travelled visitors to our shores.
As an aside, which three holes did you think were the best holes at Cape Wickham?
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Thanks for the detailed comments regarding your trip Jeff. While I find some of the comments in stark contrast to my own experiences and views, it is always stimulating to get the thoughts of passionate & widely travelled visitors to our shores.
As an aside, which three holes did you think were the best holes at Cape Wickham?
Matt it is just one opinion from one day in the sure to be long glorious history of CW. Going from memory 17,18 for sure. Perhaps because they were some of the few highlights for my round? Really stunning holes where we loitered around with cameras and photos, then started thinking of our shots. 17 had three of the four of us get the wind pushing our shots left. I had a miracle up and down from the cart path left.
18 speaks for itself IMO. The first guy to tee off hit a very solid drive but didn't see it land thus he was 30 yards short of his mark on the beach and he played it from the beach back to the fairway. I hit my best drive of the day and chunked my chip from about 98 yards, but again was able to scramble. You can be conservative off the tee as if you aren't you are screwed. Great match play hole where you are hitting 2nd IMO.
Again from memory I think it was 9 or 10 which was the short downhill par 4 with the ocean in the background. I hit 5 wood and rolled down almost exactly where one guy crushed his drive. Felt like I was the smart one for once. I recall the pin being back right and I found that little bunker in front and couldn't get out and took an X. There was a big tier up top and then another below which made for a small target. I really like this hole for it equalizes the big hitters and small hitters, with a delicate pitch to a great back pin on the top shelf.
I know course views don't matter for architecture, but for memorability and enjoyment it sure renders strong photos in each golfers mind. I apologize for it, but I don't think I'm alone in that camp. Ocean views are like a bikini on supermodel vs. a trench coat in a job interview. You should be concentrating on the qualifications, ability, etc. But you get distracted and probably gets scored a point or two higher because of this distraction and by the end of the interview you say, "great we'll see you on Monday." ;)
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.. I would also nominate the 9th, 10th and 11th in that category. Also the second shot on 15. The 12th is a par 3 in which you can't quite see the surface of the hole but you can see the pin and the outlines of the green surface, so not a blind tee shot in my view.
The 13th is particularly bad... I almost killed a lady on the fairway last time despite waiting over 10 mins on the tee before hitting. Not sure what she was doing all that time, but she wasn't in the mood to ask.
Anthony your comments regarding the Moonah course are riddled with innacuracies. Hole numbers are incorrect and your comments on blindness are a mix of puzzling and just plain wrong. Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about a course you don’t know that well.
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.. I would also nominate the 9th, 10th and 11th in that category. Also the second shot on 15. The 12th is a par 3 in which you can't quite see the surface of the hole but you can see the pin and the outlines of the green surface, so not a blind tee shot in my view.
The 13th is particularly bad... I almost killed a lady on the fairway last time despite waiting over 10 mins on the tee before hitting. Not sure what she was doing all that time, but she wasn't in the mood to ask.
Anthony your comments regarding the Moonah course are riddled with innacuracies. Hole numbers are incorrect and your comments on blindness are a mix of puzzling and just plain wrong. Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well.
Mathew,
I meant the Par 5 12th.. But by all means continue to be a dick when other people make an error... because you are indeed perfect yourself.
e.g. "Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well."
Would you mind sharing what language that is?
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I’m far from perfect Anthony, as my predictive typing effort above on my phone demonstrates!
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I would have thought “yourself” was - in the context of Matt’s sentence - pretty obviously an iPhone autocorrect of “courses”.
Anthony — I agree sometimes the critcism people have of NSWGC is nonsensical and tends to the bizarre at times, but likewise I think your comments re Nat Moonah were a bit much, as you’ve probably found while trying to defend them!
NSWGC has, relatively, a lot of blindness. Where it has blindness it also tends to have ample width. If people hate blind shots, that’s their prerogative, but I know - as I know you do - that when your plays of the course go from one to a handful to a few dozen and then past 100, a heap of those features are gifts that keep on giving.
If that means the occasional one-and-done visitor doesn’t get it, I’m okay with that.
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Jeff,
Thanks for sharing information about your trip. I have been there now on 14 different trips and spent close to a year playing golf on those trips. You were fortunate to have played all the top tier courses on a single trip. What I liked most about traveling in Australia was the accessibility of top tier courses, the welcoming hospitality and friendliness of Aussies I met, and the quality of public access courses.
Having thought of Australia the same way I think of Ireland or Scotland, as places to travel to for golf over and over has allowed me to sample a large number of so called lower tier courses of remarkable quality, in a concentrated area. Checking out the Doak ratngs of courses in the Melbourne and Sandbelt area, the Mornington Peninsula, and Bellarine Peninsula area, i count about 25 different courses with two ratings of five or higher. The concentration of quality courses speaks to the benefit of extended stays, given that there are so many off the radar courses that are excellent playing experiences.
Charles Lund
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.. I would also nominate the 9th, 10th and 11th in that category. Also the second shot on 15. The 12th is a par 3 in which you can't quite see the surface of the hole but you can see the pin and the outlines of the green surface, so not a blind tee shot in my view.
The 13th is particularly bad... I almost killed a lady on the fairway last time despite waiting over 10 mins on the tee before hitting. Not sure what she was doing all that time, but she wasn't in the mood to ask.
Anthony your comments regarding the Moonah course are riddled with innacuracies. Hole numbers are incorrect and your comments on blindness are a mix of puzzling and just plain wrong. Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well.
Mathew,
I meant the Par 5 12th.. But by all means continue to be a dick when other people make an error... because you are indeed perfect yourself.
e.g. "Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well."
Would you mind sharing what language that is?
You made a definitive statement about the number of blind tee shots, claiming 8. You might not believe that is true because you hide your expansion on that answer in the illegible font size, where you claim 9, 10 and 11 are blind. 9 you can see half the fairway, and it is the 'good' half. 10 has all the reachable fairway in view. 100% of it. There might be some micro-undulation that mean you don't see you ball when it comes to rest in a slight hollow, but this is not what makes a shot blind. More than half of the fairway is visible from the tee on 11 as well and the mowing lines strongly hint that there is landing area behind the dunes.
Unless you've got some new definition of blind you want to share, your statement is unsupported.
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Thanks for the write up Jeff, like MM, I'm always interested in what people think when they are here, I'm pretty hard on my own peoples behaviour, glad you had fun.
Like Mac and Scott I have been wandering around Australian golf courses for the best part of 40 years and have seen the grand total of 2 snakes, albeit one was at Cape Wickham. The thing seemed more scared of us and slithered off. If you want to be worried about something, worry about the great whites taking a piece out of you, this has become a weekly occurrence.
I'm one who doesn't particularly like blind tee shots and have assumed I'm in the minority (given punters love for RCD) however perhaps because I know NSW well, I never really associated it with same. I think you may have mentioned familiarity making things easier in a subsequent post. Moonah at The National is a favourite because I love the driving areas and apart from the 'big dipper" par 4 over the back of the course, can't really recall much in the way of completely blind shots.
A perspective from a Sydneysider on Melbourne bunkering and a player not in the same league as Mac and Lukas. I do at times find them very difficult, its generally been Victoria GC where I have problems (can't recall any issues at Metro) when the wind has blown some out. That said, when they are good they are fantastic, perfect hard bases with a covering of softer sand.
When I go to Melbourne/Mornington I have the low bounce wedge as Lukas suggested and a driving iron for the wind. They are getting packed this week, one day at St Andrews Beach and 3 days at Victoria.
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When I go to Melbourne/Mornington I have the low bounce wedge as Lukas suggested and a driving iron for the wind. They are getting packed this week, one day at St Andrews Beach and 3 days at Victoria.
Kevin, do you use the low bounce wedge on the Mornington Peninsula? I find it's a danger bat outside the sandbelt...trying to nip it in bunkers with a lot more sand is a recipe for disaster!
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Obviously the talk of snakes has made them more active. My playing partners had a little one cross in front of them Sunday afternoon. I'd expect that most of the Australians on GCA would have seen more snakes than Clayts given they tend to be in the rough and the last time he missed a fairway was 2004.
Mick,
Standard Sandbelt setup is usually an medium bounce sand wedge and a low bounce lob wedge. That gives you a few options depending on how firm the sand is. Still a spot open for you Friday night if you get back from StAB at a reasonable time.
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9 you can see half the fairway
Which would mean half of the fairway is blind, no?
More than half of the fairway is visible from the tee on 11 as well
How much more? 3%? 5%? 10%
and the mowing lines strongly hint that there is landing area behind the dunes.
How do they do that? With placards? A song and dance show? Showgirls on the hill with arrows?
A significant part of the first fairway is blind from the tee. You aren't going to see where your ball has ended up on 3 if it goes over the spine. I seem to recall that 2, although somewhat flat, the hazard or hill on the left made it entirely possible to not know where your ball was going to go. 6 and 16 also had teeshots where the ball was likely to disappear from view after landing.
How much of the green of 5 is above you? Half? More than half?
Unless you've got some new definition of blind you want to share, your statement is unsupported.
Do National members have to take a short course in being condescending twats before they are admitted?
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.
Sounds like a rather succinct and self-explanatory sentence.
Of course, Anthony would have been more accurate if he had just commented on the general ordinariness of the Moonah course, the repetitive nature of the greens, the horrifically bad set of par threes, and, 3rd and 11th holes notwithstanding, how boring the rest of the par fours are.
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So half blind= blind?
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Obviously the talk of snakes has made them more active. My playing partners had a little one cross in front of them Sunday afternoon. I'd expect that most of the Australians on GCA would have seen more snakes than Clayts given they tend to be in the rough and the last time he missed a fairway was 2004.
Clayts is a playah!!!!
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So half blind= blind?
If you dig a hole and put half the dirt back in, do you have half a hole, or just a smaller hole??
Perhaps blind shots are partially blind or totally blind... ;)
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So half blind= blind?
No. Half blind could mean a number of things.
Blind is blind.
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I had a discussion a few years ago with a very good player (a woman) who thought Royal Melbourne West was horribly overrated. I’d never heard anyone take that position before, so I asked why, and it was because she couldn’t see her tee shot land on so many holes - not just the up and over on 4, but the finicky things like not being able to see clearly over the bunker on 2W or 12W or 18.
It did not change my opinion of the course at all, but it did make me more aware that people create their own definitions and rules for architecture out of their personal pet peeves, and it profoundly impacts their views overall.
I do it myself with my distaste for man-made ponds. Jack Nicklaus absolutely hates when fairway bunkers are straight across from one another instead of staggered. I’m sure everyone has their own. I should start a separate thread as this has not much to do with Australia, but I’m too busy today.
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Tom,
I likewise heard a very good player - a woman - say 'Royal Melbourne doesn't reward good shots'
She was partly right - it only really rewards (if getting a reasonably long approach within 5-12 feet is a measure) great shots. Hitting 'good' shots to 40 feet clearly didn't agree with her.
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I had a discussion a few years ago with a very good player (a woman) who thought Royal Melbourne West was horribly overrated. I’d never heard anyone take that position before, so I asked why, and it was because she couldn’t see her tee shot land on so many holes - not just the up and over on 4, but the finicky things like not being able to see clearly over the bunker on 2W or 12W or 18W.
Interesting isn’t it.
I have a friend who loves the sense of anticipation and drama of seeing his ball bounce on the far side of the drive hazards on 2W, 4W, 6W, 12W. Even though the landing area is not as clearly visible as your described female player may wish, my friend thinks the visualisation of the bounce and confirmation of the carry is a great asset. Give the player thrills, as Alister would say...
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I have a friend who loves the sense of anticipation and drama of seeing his ball bounce on the far side of the drive hazards on 2W, 4W, 6W, 12W. Even though the landing area is not as clearly visible as your described female player may wish, my friend thinks the visualisation of the bounce and confirmation of the carry is a great asset. Give the player thrills, as Alister would say...
Matthew:
It helps that in Australia, the ball actually bounces high enough to be seen!
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Still if that's not your cup of tee, its probably best you missed the National. There's 8 blind tee shots on the Moonah course alone.
Ok Anthony, you have got me curious on this on. I play National Moonah probably every second weekend and have since it opened about 18 years ago. 12 and 13 tee shots are blind but for the life of me I can't find 6 more.
As for the snakes, you see one every so often but almost all are either indifferent to you and sunning themselves in full view or pretty keen to get out of your way. I'd take a close encounter with a snake over one with a bear any day of the week.
I guess it depends on where the wind is coming from and where you hit 'em but about half my tee shots disappeared from view before they landed.. I would also nominate the 9th, 10th and 11th in that category. Also the second shot on 15. The 12th is a par 3 in which you can't quite see the surface of the hole but you can see the pin and the outlines of the green surface, so not a blind tee shot in my view.
The 13th is particularly bad... I almost killed a lady on the fairway last time despite waiting over 10 mins on the tee before hitting. Not sure what she was doing all that time, but she wasn't in the mood to ask.
Anthony your comments regarding the Moonah course are riddled with innacuracies. Hole numbers are incorrect and your comments on blindness are a mix of puzzling and just plain wrong. Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well.
Mathew,
I meant the Par 5 12th.. But by all means continue to be a dick when other people make an error... because you are indeed perfect yourself.
e.g. "Perhaps best to refrain from such definite comments about yourself you don’t know that well."
Would you mind sharing what language that is?
You made a definitive statement about the number of blind tee shots, claiming 8. You might not believe that is true because you hide your expansion on that answer in the illegible font size, where you claim 9, 10 and 11 are blind. 9 you can see half the fairway, and it is the 'good' half. 10 has all the reachable fairway in view. 100% of it. There might be some micro-undulation that mean you don't see you ball when it comes to rest in a slight hollow, but this is not what makes a shot blind. More than half of the fairway is visible from the tee on 11 as well and the mowing lines strongly hint that there is landing area behind the dunes.
Unless you've got some new definition of blind you want to share, your statement is unsupported.
I keep forgetting how many short knockers there are from Melbourne on this site... ;-)
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Given the discussion earlier in the thread re Australian fauna that will kill you, I present:
https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/terrifying-scenes-as-redback-eats-baby-brown-snake-for-dinner/news-story/50a82b2dd1a36e8793f39200ed264082 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/terrifying-scenes-as-redback-eats-baby-brown-snake-for-dinner/news-story/50a82b2dd1a36e8793f39200ed264082)