Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: B.Ross on December 21, 2018, 10:52:14 AM
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LinksGems (aka Jon Cavalier) is reporting on instagram that a mere 2 years after Montclair GC merged with Rock Spring, they are planning to close down the course. Can't find anything about this in the news. Has anyone heard anything similar?
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LinksGems (aka Jon Cavalier) is reporting on instagram that a mere 2 years after Montclair GC merged with Rock Spring, they are planning to close down the course. Can't find anything about this in the news. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Yes, that is the current plan......as of now.
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That’s too bad. Rock Spring had some good bones, with some awful bunkering that, if I remember correctly, was in process of being undone by KBM before Montclair bought the place. Kind of saw it as the potential to be developed as the “players course” component to their portfolio, but I guess the economics didn’t make sense to keep it as golf.
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LinksGems (aka Jon Cavalier) is reporting on instagram that a mere 2 years after Montclair GC merged with Rock Spring, they are planning to close down the course. Can't find anything about this in the news. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Yes, that is the current plan......as of now.
Can you shed any more light on what's going into this decision, if you know?
Is this just a case where the combined membership of the club isn't big enough to sustain 54 holes? The 2 properties are 10 minutes from one another. Couldn't they in theory sell off the rock spring clubhouse to be a catering hall and keep the golf course open? Perhaps the cost of having maintenance equipment at 2 facilities was too great. I'd venture to guess they couldn't transport the mowing / greens equipment from the montclair 36 down the road easily.
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My associate Brian Schneider is consulting at Montclair GC now, so he also assumed a role at Rock Spring when they bought it.
When I spoke with him this summer, the club was still up in the air as to what to do with the course. There are different factions that want to sell off some of the land, or build a big practice range and turn it into 12 holes, or keep it as it is. We kind of have to stay neutral in all of that, as we answer to the club as a whole, not any particular faction.
Normally, the point of consolidating clubs is to downsize eventually, rather than go on a membership drive, so the discussions are hardly surprising. It's really their business, though, isn't it? It's not like this board put up the $$$ to save the course. Without Montclair, Rock Spring would probably already be gone.
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It is difficult for me to understand that a Club like Montclair could be in financial trouble. I guess there is a lot of competition in northern NJ. In the Lutheran Church when two congregations merge because of dwindling membership it often only postpones their demize.
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It is difficult for me to understand that a Club like Montclair could be in financial trouble. I guess there is a lot of competition in northern NJ. In the Lutheran Church when two congregations merge because of dwindling membership it often only postpones their demize.
I don't think Montclair is in financial trouble at all; Rock Spring was the club in trouble. As it stands, they've been able to become part of Montclair, instead of losing their membership to a bank if Rock Spring had failed. But whether it makes sense for the combined club to support 54 holes, or sell off part of what they own, is the question of the day.
The way they've done it, they are negotiating from a position of strength, instead of weakness. I'm surprised we haven't seen more mergers like this at U.S. clubs. It's become common in Australia: clubs like The National and Peninsula have used their financial strength to their advantage.
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As Tom said, Montclair is most certainly not in any financial difficulty.
It is a healthy club that made it's Rock Spring purchase from strength and long understood that the Rock Spring property had been aggressively pursued by land developers and had intrinsic value above and beyond that of another 18 golf holes.
The primary reason the US hasn't yet seen a wave of inter-club mergers is mostly due to the cultural differences and personal pride that is found between so many private clubs that live near each other.
I've worked on several over the past two years that made eminent sense on both a financial and utility basis. Typically, the strong club prefers to let the distressed one flounder, thus attracting their members organically. Of course, this only accelerates the latter's eventual demise. Well-financed local or regional real estate developers have been ready bidders in most cases, ultimately presenting the highest and best offers for the decomposing club.
Ultimately, this Darwinian process will yield a more sustainable golf club environment in the U.S. It'll take time, but the golf world will be better for it.
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This is sad news. I've always wanted to get up there to see it.
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This is a shame. I hope Montclair members keep it in some form.
I played it a couple years ago. A buddy of mine is a Yale grad who could get access through Yale Club membership. I thought it was a really cool, close to Manhattan (where we live) option, that had potential to do some innovative business model thing. Limited membership? Maybe if you were a member of a social, or higher end fitness club in NYC, you could get some twilight/weekday access?
I've played Westhampton, Southampton, Essex County CC, Northshore, and Knoll West (Banks), and they all honor the Raynor/Banks pedigrees. It would be a shame to lose one, especially since Montclair has such a unique architect roster!
Lots of movement in the first 2 holes, and the 3rd was no joke about losing it left! Not sure what hole, maybe 16 with a false front wrecked my score, and I didn't even mind playing through the range on 18. I liked that old school land use!
I have not played the other Montclair 9's, but I was so excited to hear they were taking over....and hope not just to downsize. I guess it's idealistic to think Rock Spring would remain, improve, and be there for a long time!
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As Tom said, Montclair is most certainly not in any financial difficulty.
It is a healthy club that made it's Rock Spring purchase from strength and long understood that the Rock Spring property had been aggressively pursued by land developers and had intrinsic value above and beyond that of another 18 golf holes.
The primary reason the US hasn't yet seen a wave of inter-club mergers is mostly due to the cultural differences and personal pride that is found between so many private clubs that live near each other.
I've worked on several over the past two years that made eminent sense on both a financial and utility basis. Typically, the strong club prefers to let the distressed one flounder, thus attracting their members organically. Of course, this only accelerates the latter's eventual demise. Well-financed local or regional real estate developers have been ready bidders in most cases, ultimately presenting the highest and best offers for the decomposing club.
Ultimately, this Darwinian process will yield a more sustainable golf club environment in the U.S. It'll take time, but the golf world will be better for it.
With property values so high in Essex County it seems that Montclair is in the catbird seat. It will be interesting to see how it ultimately shakes out.
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Mayfield and Sand Ridge, both outside Cleveland, merged in 2K6 and seem to be going strong, including a recent sale.
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Club sold for 12M to West Orange Township and will remain open for public play for at least 2 years.
http://golfincmagazine.com/content/new-jersey-township-authorizes-12m-buy-golf-course (http://golfincmagazine.com/content/new-jersey-township-authorizes-12m-buy-golf-course)
https://www.nj.com/essex/2019/03/buying-this-12m-nj-golf-course-with-nyc-views-was-worth-every-penny.html (https://www.nj.com/essex/2019/03/buying-this-12m-nj-golf-course-with-nyc-views-was-worth-every-penny.html)
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Yes, the municipality purchase is now a done deal.
The township asked my partner and I to bid on a contract to operate it. Frankly, the deal to do so is far from feasible.
For a myriad of reasons, anyone interested in playing here should do so sooner rather than later.
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Yes, the municipality purchase is now a done deal.
The township asked my partner and I to bid on a contract to operate it. Frankly, the deal to do so is far from feasible.
For a myriad of reasons, anyone interested in playing here should do so sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the knowledge. I hope to visit there sooner rather than later!
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this is quite interesting. safe to say this is now one of the better public tracks reasonably close to NYC. any idea when they plan to open to the public, and what they'll charge for tee times?
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I will support it as long as possible. A welcome public addition to the NYC Metro area!
Too idealistic to think it could remain an 18 hole course, AND provide recreation? Maybe no golf a couple days a week for dogs, picnics, concerts, jogging, whatever recreationers do?
And, another opportunity to expose the public golfer to templates, Golden Age design, and the deeper history of the game.
Anyway, excited for the next 2 years, at least!
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I think this is really cool news!
https://kempersports.com/2019/04/kempersports-selected-to-manage-rock-spring-golf-club-at-west-orange-lead-property-transformation/
Kemper manages nearby Knoll West, and has 2 architectural gems open to the public in the area.
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The golf course will be open on Friday, May 10! Not sure if the link below will work.
https://www.tapinto.net/towns/west-orange/articles/ceremonial-first-drive-to-mark-opening-of-west-orange-owned-golf-club (https://www.tapinto.net/towns/west-orange/articles/ceremonial-first-drive-to-mark-opening-of-west-orange-owned-golf-club)
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https://www.rockspringgolf.com (https://www.rockspringgolf.com)
Rock Spring Golf Club at West Orange will feature one of only two public golf courses in the United States designed by legendary architect Seth Raynor, whose highly-ranked work includes Fisher’s Island in New York, Shoreacres on Chicago’s North Shore and Mid Ocean Club in Bermuda. Twelve of Raynor’s courses are on GOLF Magazine’s list of the Top 100 in the U.S.
Rock Spring’s 6,600-yard par-71 course sits on a rolling, tree-lined site and features many of Raynor’s trademark design elements with truly unique and creative green complexes. Founded in 1925, Rock Spring Golf Club at West Orange has played host to the New Jersey State Open (1981, 1990, 2000 and 2009), the US Healthcare Classic, and many state PGA and USGA qualifying events.
Located just 15 miles west of Manhattan, Rock Spring Golf Club at West Orange also features a clubhouse with sweeping views of the Manhattan skyline, Cable Lake and Second Mountain.
Earlier this year, The Township of West Orange purchased Rock Spring from Montclair Country Club and has selected KemperSports to manage Rock Spring Golf Club at West Orange. Under this agreement, KemperSports will convert the former private club – which was recently purchased by West Orange – into a public daily fee golf facility. The course is scheduled to open in early May; an exact date will be announced soon.
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I have a question:
(https://cl.ly/7a5e817cf1e3/Screen%252520Shot%2525202019-06-02%252520at%2525207.18.41%252520PM.png)
I see a lot of the "geometric shapes" that are pretty common, as far as I understand things, common to Raynor courses.
But a lot of the greens seem to be more rounded than I'm used to seeing (I think) on Raynor courses? Am I completely off base? Or if I'm not, did Raynor's greens become less "rectangular" in his later years? Or, maybe because the course opened a few years after he died, he didn't finalize the greens? Or maybe their lines shifted over time?
Looking to learn a bit here. Hoping someone can tell me if I'm even in the right ballpark, too.
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I don't think his greens became less squared off as his career went on. Rather, I think the clubs that have not spent time and money maintaining or restoring the Raynor greens tend to look this way. I do think his bunkering evolved though. I think he used less bunkering more effectively in later years. Compare Westhampton to say Camargo.
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Erik,
Unfortunately the 1931 aerial of Rock Spring is really poor so I cannot see how the course once looked. If you look at old aerials of Waialae, Camargo, Fishers, Southampton, Blue Mound, Fox Chapel, and Yeamans you'll get a better feel for Raynor's later work. In fact CC Charleston which just hosted a wonderful women's open was built 1924-1925 a year before Raynor's death.
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Erik,
Unfortunately the 1931 aerial of Rock Spring is really poor so I cannot see how the course once looked. If you look at old aerials of Waialae, Camargo, Fishers, Southampton, Blue Mound, Fox Chapel, and Yeamans you'll get a better feel for Raynor's later work. In fact CC Charleston which just hosted a wonderful women's open was built 1924-1925 a year before Raynor's death.
Thank you. My only other question might be that perhaps as Raynor died in 1926 and the course didn't open until 1928, maybe he didn't specify the greens, or they were modified after his death?
It seems to be either that or they were just modified over time. You'd bet mostly on the latter, Nigel?
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Well Josh Banks finished the course. He was even more ambitious with his green complexes than Raynor was. So likely the greens were understated because they were changed later or not as wild as it was on a lower budget. If you look at Lake Wales CC front nine you’ll see less “Raynor” like features. To me this is simply because it was a municipal course.
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If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?
As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!
I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.
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Well Josh Banks finished the course. He was even more ambitious with his green complexes than Raynor was. So likely the greens were understated because they were changed later or not as wild as it was on a lower budget. If you look at Lake Wales CC front nine you’ll see less “Raynor” like features. To me this is simply because it was a municipal course.
Thank you Nigel.
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Rock Spring was in the early innings of a restoration with Kelly Blake Moran when the financial crisis hit them hard. One of the few greens properly restored was the 17th, in the top right of the aerial. This is a large green with a dramatic false front and three 'waves / tiers' going front to back. A really cool green and exceptionally well done by Kelly and former RS (now MGC) super Mike Campbell. Another green that was restored is #4, a long par-4 with a (restored) huge green with plateaus front left and back right. RS has some great holes - 3, 4, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 15 are favorites for me.
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Raynor died before the course was laid out on the ground, which was done by Banks in the Spring of 1926.
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If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?
As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!
I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.
Bill,
In addition to losing Cypress, he lost the contract for both MPCC courses. Camargo and Southampton were both finished in house. Mayo was building both Hawaii courses under the indirect supervision of Banks. He also had both Essex County CC courses going, Lookout Mountain, Knollwood, Rock Springs, maybe some work at Fox Chapel, Cragin Park (likely not built,) Statesville, possibly work at Fishers as you alluded to, and of course Hackensack. I’m not sure if Banks had anything to do with Blue Mound, Yeamans, or Yale. Banks was quite the amazing cat. He was generally well liked, and he built some amazing courses. 1926 must have been a very interesting year for Banks.
Nigel
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If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?
As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!
I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.
Bill,
In addition to losing Cypress, he lost the contract for both MPCC courses. Camargo and Southampton were both finished in house. Mayo was building both Hawaii courses under the indirect supervision of Banks. He also had both Essex County CC courses going, Lookout Mountain, Knollwood, Rock Springs, maybe some work at Fox Chapel, Cragin Park (likely not built,) Statesville, possibly work at Fishers as you alluded to, and of course Hackensack. I’m not sure if Banks had anything to do with Blue Mound, Yeamans, or Yale. Banks was quite the amazing cat. He was generally well liked, and he built some amazing courses. 1926 must have been a very interesting year for Banks.
Nigel
Nigel, wait! Who built Camargo? I've seen their Eden hole and always believed it was one of Raynor's best. Are you saying that Raynor started the work but it was finished in house after he died? As pretty as their Eden appears, I've never understood the bunkering...
Banks definitely completed Fishers Island. Years ago I borrowed and read their anniversary book. I played the course two weeks ago (OMG what a golf course!) and almost bought the book in their pro shop... but opted for another shirt...
Since you know your stuff, I'll tell you this story. One of ur members found a newspaper article from the 50's by a popular sportswriter in New Jersey, Red Smith, attributing Hackensack to Raynor. That interested me, since Raynor is a more well-known architect than Banks. I did a ton of research. MIke Cirba and Sven Nelson would have been proud! I read through five years of old newspapers on microfiche from the twenties researching our move from the city of Hackensack to the towns of Oradell and Emerson. (I thought it would be cool to prove that HGC was a Raynor and not a Banks, right?)
But I found the true answer in a safe that contained old board minutes. I read the June 1926 report to the board from the committee to select a new architect (since months after Raynor died, 3 months after we sold the land in Hackensack and acquired a new site.) Donald Ross said he was too busy to accept any new work, We received "propositions" (not proposals) from Styles and Van Kleek, A.W. Tillinghast (which would have probably meant that he would NOT have built Ridgewood CC a few miles away...) and Charles Banks, an associate of Seth Raynor who recently passed away.
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Camargo is definitely Raynor. I think the superintendent (William Jackson) finished the work with two members. Dewitt Balch and Fred Chatfield. Nine holes opened in September of 1926 with the rest of the course opening the following year.
Fishers was on a similar timetable. I'm not sure the club is sure Banks was there, but it is one of the courses Gould Martin attributes as a project Banks helped him with in his obituary of Raynor for the Metropolitan Golfer.
That's a great story about Hackensack. To think Banks basically only had 6 years to design courses, and 1/3 of that was during the depression......
His career is very under appreciated.
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Too bad you missed out on the management contract Slapper!
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Too bad you missed out on the management contract Slapper!
Nah Bruce...while it certainly would've been fun to be around the course, the deal the township was asking for (and Kemper Sports agreed to) wasn't a very good one from our perspective....and you well know, a bad deal on a good course is still a bad deal!
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Slap: Lose money on every PAYING patron but make it up on volume is not a good business model?
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I had the pleasure of playing Rock Spring last Saturday afternoon with my friend Mike Cirba. It was very enjoyable as the conditioning was good, presentation could probably be touched up, and the pace of play good.
The back nine is awesome, starting with an Alps-like tenth hole, followed by a Road hole 11th.
Lighting was nice for the photo album. This URL is to the album formatted wide and little compression:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RockSpring/index.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RockSpring/index.html)
If you have a smaller monitor, then the album at the Bausch Collection at MyPhillyGolf.com is more to your liking:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RockSpring/index.html (http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RockSpring/index.html)
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Wow, I really hope Rock Spring lives long and prospers.
Lots of really good stuff out there and as Joe mentioned, that back nine is pretty special.
Instantly in the top 5 NJ public courses IMO, even if it could use a bit of sprucing up.
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Glad you made it out there Joe and Mike! Thanks for the gallery, Joe!
Front 9 is not too shabby either. Sneaky tough. Love the 4th hole, especially the green! Don't see that on many area public courses! 7 tee shot demands a draw, or lay up safe, but far out, making that green smaller than it appears.
And agree, hope it remains for a long time. It's a great architecture 101 discussion for area public golfers not so familiar to the questions the course asks.
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I played Rock Spring today for a late afternoon round. Was able to walk in less than 3 hours, and finally played it when conditions were dry and firm. (they've had a ton of rain, or always playing it soggy.) It was a great day, and love the shots asked, cool strategy, and the ball was rolling out!
Having played it from public opening, it was a bit of a bummer to see they are shrinking green sizes on 3, 6, 11, and 16. 11 was the biggest bummer. It's a great green, and a tough par even with a GIR if on the low, right side. I've always found the large greens, and the challenge of hitting the greens in the right spot one of the most interesting tasks of the course.
Still thrilled to have it as an option, and rooting for them, but fingers crossed they don't shrink the greens any further! Course is a gem. Staff has been great. Sid, the starter always has a good story.