Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Erik J. Barzeski on December 04, 2018, 06:55:53 PM
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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zf8q2ow7ec7xzne/AAB5KL53NRCxm5GGB0DZCgnea?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zf8q2ow7ec7xzne/AAB5KL53NRCxm5GGB0DZCgnea?dl=0)
The land looks pretty uninteresting and flat to me (but what do I know), and the PGA says they are going to build:
Two championship golf courses, a short course, and practice areas totaling 45 holes; a clubhouse; Class AA office space; a 500-room Omni resort and 127,000-square-foot conference center; a technologically advanced retail village; parks and open space plus several miles of trails, will complement this unique, signature development.
http://info.thepgaofamerica.com/acton/attachment/25751/f-7c88a8dd-f518-4ebf-b3d2-1b8de8afbb27/1/-/-/-/-/PGA-Frisco-HQ-Release.pdf?sid=TV2:is7vsLcxw (http://info.thepgaofamerica.com/acton/attachment/25751/f-7c88a8dd-f518-4ebf-b3d2-1b8de8afbb27/1/-/-/-/-/PGA-Frisco-HQ-Release.pdf?sid=TV2:is7vsLcxw)
So, from an architectural standpoint, how interesting does the land look? Will architects here be bidding on and building the courses, or has the PGA already chosen Fazio and, I don't know, a Jones to build the courses?
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Pre selected Hanse and Beau Welling, last I heard.
I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.
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I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.
Thanks. And bummer.
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I have routed a course on that site, maybe 20 years ago. Nicklaus and a few others have, too. Perfect for slamming a real estate course in to maximum density, lol. Not as much h for golf. Might be a good site for the full Faz landscape treatment.
Thanks. And bummer.
Hi Erik
Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?
Cheers
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https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2018/12/04/pga-america-announces-hq-move-frisco-520-million-deal
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The economics of subsidizing these sorts of projects baffles me - particularly this one.
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Why don't we hold off judgment on the course till it is built--or at least designed? I have faith that Hanse will do a good job.
Does this land look any worse than the land on which the Rio Olympic course was built? Not to me! And that course was well received.
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What's the story with that random-looking raised platform-type piece of ground? Looks like a cool spot for a short uphill par 3 to a green wedged onto one of the front corners of it, followed by a cool raised tee area for the following hole.
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The economics of subsidizing these sorts of projects baffles me - particularly this one.
I read somewhere else that DFW area, which had 2 or 3 different proposals to Amazon, was using that framework to pursue up to 20 other different corporate deals. It may be this subsidy seemed small compared to the proposed Amazon one, even if it seems large for estimated $2.5B economic benefit over ten years.
What struck me as pie in the sky was much of the proposed retail space devoted to golf related merchandise. Hey, wonder if they'll ask me to move my office over there and pay exorbitant rent to work next to a Gil Hanse golf course......
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Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?
I would generally prefer some elevation change throughout the site.
Obviously there are some great pretty flat golf courses. But, were I given a choice, I'd take a bit of land with some movement.
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I just looked at the drone footage. It is a little tough for me to decipher but the land looked much more interesting than I would have guessed from some of the earlier posts.
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So what happens to the PGA Village concept in all this?? Courses and resort not affected?
Ken
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This project has been rumored for 5 years or so, though at the beginning, the North Texas PGA was the driving force behind it. Even back then, Beau Welling was mentioned as one of the designers (can't remember who the other one was, but it wasn't Hanse or a name I recognized at the time).
I drove the perimeter of the property as best I could this afternoon and got the sense that the land could be much more interesting than what I previously thought. I understand that the plans for the golf courses are very preliminary ("pre-design"), but the map below gives a better idea of the project.
https://www.friscotexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/16972/Property-Map (https://www.friscotexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/16972/Property-Map)
I personally think that government should not get involved in subsidizing golf, especially when the private sector is able to meet demand. With the price of land at $3+/s.f., no developer I know would undertake such a project. I haven't looked at the economics, but much of the governments' (local and state) contributions are rebates on various sales tax revenues generated by the project. The best I can tell, there will be $25 Million in general obligation bonds issued for which the city is on the hook for. Street additions and related infrastructure are not incremental, though accelerated by a couple of years.
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Although I don't know any of the details , I assume this is similar to Frisco landing the Dallas Cowboys facility, the soccer stadium, etc. the town has grown very fast and is at the intersection of the tollway and the other tollway . Lou will know much more about this, and accurately told me it was going to happen at least two years ago. We evidently intend to pass Chicago in population so this stuff keeps coming.
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With the price of land at $3+/s.f.
Curious more than anything, but where does that figure come from? My plot of land is really overpriced at $3/square foot let alone the "+". So again, where does $3+ come from? This is just out-of-the-way farmland type land right now, no?
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The really interesting thing here is Florida. This was a concerted effort to make a distinction between the PGA and the PGA Tour. But winter weather etc is going to be a little different. Sounds like PGA show could end up moving with the deal also...not sure about where it would be out there but bet its being discussed.
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This really isn't "out of the way farmland". It was 10 years ago. Probably 30 minutes on a toll road to DFW airport. 30 minutes to downtown Dallas. In traffic ,double that. There is a lot of infrastructure in place.
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Perhaps a way to describe it is a corporate headquarters area. Probably what White Plains, NY was some years ago
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Erik,
The City of Frisco purchased 390 acres just east of the subject this past winter for $61 Million. If my math is right, that's $3.50+ p.s.f. Jerry Jones of Cowboys fame has several tracts in the area, some very close by that received zoning from Ag to some very intense uses (no apartments, as one of the council members joked), and some in Prosper just across SH 380 in various stages of development. As Mike notes, this area is in hyper-drive right now, and though there is thousands of acres of undeveloped land all around, anything close to any major roads is $$$$$.
The PGA site is part of 2,500 acre ranch purchased by Hunt Realty not too long ago. I've seen what the developers say they're paying for the 592+/- acres, and I think it is $60 Million or $2.30 p.s.f. I suspect that Hunt is using this initial sale to kick-start their multi-use master plan, with subsequent sales of what was essentially poor farm land (saw a cotton field not far from there today) going for much more.
Mike,
Six months+ ago, when I started hearing the details (everyone was sworn to secrecy, but you know how that goes) from both sides, I became pessimistic. Word from the folks down in FL was that the Frisco deal was being shopped around and there was a strong preference for staying put if the local community would up their commitments. Even as recently two months ago when a friend told me he had it from the highest source that the deal was done, I still thought it was 50/50. My batting average is not as good as it used to be, just like my golf game.
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The City of Frisco purchased 390 acres just east of the subject this past winter for $61 Million. If my math is right, that's $3.50+ p.s.f. Jerry Jones of Cowboys fame has several tracts in the area, some very close by that received zoning from Ag to some very intense uses (no apartments, as one of the council members joked), and some in Prosper just across SH 380 in various stages of development. As Mike notes, this area is in hyper-drive right now, and though there is thousands of acres of undeveloped land all around, anything close to any major roads is $$$$$.
Thanks, and wow. I think I thought it was a bit further out from Dallas than it appears to be - 32 minutes to downtown Dallas. I thought it was closer to an hour or so. Still, I'm a little surprised at $3.59/sf. Ouch.
Thank you for the added information. I appreciate it.
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I haven't ventured much into the property but there seems to be some nice elevation changes and rolling terrain on the western part that currently serves as a park for mountain bike and hiking trails. There is also quite a bit of flood prone land which they will have to work around, probably part of the reason why the price p.s.f. is a "bargain" in comparison to the 390 acres bought earlier this year by the city. I would not be surprised if both courses set a new standard for north Texas, and the developers will probably encounter far fewer difficulties building the courses than at Trinity Forest.
The PGA has already signed a joint agreement with North Texas State University which will be building a new campus just to the east of the PGA headquarters site (on part of the aforementioned 390 acres purchased by Frisco) to develop various golf related programs for students and PGA members. For selfish reasons, I am hoping that the agreement with the Frisco Independent School District allowing its high school teams use of the facilities is expanded to include those from smaller nearby districts. And I also hope that the courses will be generous in hosting USGA and state qualifying rounds and tournaments, a burden of sorts that is not widely shared by some clubs in the area.
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The PGA posted an image of their master plan for Frisco on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PGA/status/1120436763632254977 (https://twitter.com/PGA/status/1120436763632254977)
Two courses one designed by Gil Hanse and another by Beau Welling. A practice facility and a short course also included.
Here's the direct URL for the image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4yXS0YX4AEVjk_.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4yXS0YX4AEVjk_.jpg)
East Course (Hanse): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4yfeRoXsAEPlOy.jpg
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Mike Nuzzo wrote:
“Hi Erik
Would you be bummed if someone told you we were building a golf course on a dead flat cattle ranch?
Cheers”
Now that’s funny
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The really interesting thing here is Florida. This was a concerted effort to make a distinction between the PGA and the PGA Tour. But winter weather etc is going to be a little different. Sounds like PGA show could end up moving with the deal also...not sure about where it would be out there but bet its being discussed.
Mike
The PGA does not own the Orlando show anymore, Reed Expositions does so a move because of the association moving is unlikely. Unlike the industry show which is smaller there are few facilities big enough to handle it.
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I have walked and driven the land, and it is a very nice piece of rolling farmland with some creeks, bluffs and hills. I am a firm believer that you can't judge the true quality of a course until it is built--and probably open and tweaked for a few years--, but there is nothing about this piece of land that raises cautionary concerns about the quality of the course that may result.
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https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2019/4/23/pga-rolls-out-plans-timeline-for-its-grow-the-game-move-to-frisco-texas-home-to-future-pgas-and-ryder-cups
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I think it will be a much harder sell to get people to visit and play golf at a PGA HQ in a suburb of Dallas as opposed to the coast in Florida. Someone could take their whole family to Port St. Lucie and spend time at the beach in addition to playing a round of golf at the PGA Village. I also wonder if they'll move the annual merchandise show, because I think they might see a drop in attendance if so.
But we'll see! It'll obviously help if the courses in Frisco are better than the ones in Port St. Lucie (which shouldn't be difficult), but I doubt it'll ever be a major golf only destination when places like Bandon and Streamsong exist.
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Video on the design of the new courses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx89gLcVJCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx89gLcVJCQ)
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Update with some construction photos:
https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/golf/2020/06/05/an-inside-look-at-the-progress-of-pga-frisco-the-biggest-public-golf-course-project-north-texas-has-ever-seen/ (https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/golf/2020/06/05/an-inside-look-at-the-progress-of-pga-frisco-the-biggest-public-golf-course-project-north-texas-has-ever-seen/)
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If the Tampa Bay Rays end up in Frisco ( and if baseball remains a major sport) there could be some families coming for golf and baseball. There are a few months you can't predict the weather but probably get lucky. And then there is August when no one should be interested. There is a lot of population within a few hundred miles and the chance to play a course which has hosted a major is not available to many. Dallas Fort Worth is probably 8 million people.
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If the Tampa Bay Rays end up in Frisco ( and if baseball remains a major sport) there could be some families coming for golf and baseball. There are a few months you can't predict the weather but probably get lucky. And then there is August when no one should be interested. There is a lot of population within a few hundred miles and the chance to play a course which has hosted a major is not available to many. Dallas Fort Worth is probably 8 million people.
You homer!
Hadn't heard about the Rays. What did I miss? One can go see the AA 'Riders on any given night and sit wherever you want to. I suppose that the Rays might be used to that. Can DFW support two mediocre big league franchises?
Pricing the PGA courses will be tricky. I haven't seen the proformas, but if the rack rates are north of $225 as I've heard, good luck.
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Lou: I still considered baseball an important sport when I wrote the post. This rumor, unconfirmed, started with the Rangers moving people around and raising prices for artificial turf baseball. My guys split tickets with one of the Hunt Oil companies who says they are out with the increases. I think I have enough money people from my club and that other club we were talking about but the Rangers will be an obstacle and everyone is losing interest. The labor situation looks bleak. Not that Tampa would notice. Playing golf sounds more interesting than sports ownership anyway.
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https://golf.com/travel/pga-frisco-gil-hanse-design-ryder-cup-ready/
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Recent photos posted on social media.
atb
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En63uofWEAIZOVD?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnTSGbbW8AQe3r2?format=jpg&name=medium)
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Toured PGA Frisco (Hanse, only saw Welling from a distance) a week ago. Very nice, with lots of "new" ideas.
-Some ditch grass bunkers (I’ve done those, not quite as severe) with a combo of buffalo and Bermuda on the banks so one shot in may sit high, another low. Some knobs, not sure if they are supposed to look like Texas size ant hills, but unique.
- On 12, he has a big “waste bunker” left although it is just chunked up ground, no sand yet, so not sure the plan. There is a trench where it looked like a 4” tile went, and when they decided to self-drain, they just left that trench in the waste bunker, again, presumably to mete out random lies.
- A few bunkers that start as formal and transition to waste at the rear, a few that are waste in the front and transition to formal at the back. Pretty neat. (The photo above shows one of them)
- Even the formal sand bunkers have a nice mix of blobs with rugged edges vs. more traditional cape and bay style.
- Tees surrounds are shaped a lot, and most run straight into the fairway, a la George Thomas’ Fair tee.
- Gil didn’t allow a box blade or drag mat on the property, so the fairways have a nice old fashioned rough surface look to them.
-A lot of the green run ups are pretty sharp, including the first short par 4. Guessing he is trying to encourage and then potentially stop the drive from reaching the green? Or let the long hitters use it to slow down their shots.
-A lot of upslope and minor mounding at 340 yards. Carry bunkers from 270-300, most flanking bunkers at 300 or so.
-All par 5 holes over 600. Gil wants them to be true three shot holes. I liked 14 second LZ a lot. A cross bunker and some other bunkers both sides, creek long. The tight LZ was around 140 to green, laying up short of cross bunker puts players well over 150, I think, probably too long to assure a tight approach.
- Most scenic hole is 13, a 237 (?) par 3, creek left, sand bunker starts left, runs uphill to behind the green, and then curves back on itself on even a higher level, sort of a Z shape. Nicely done as it sits in shade, and green is pushed far enough north to allow sunlight in all hours of day. Open front, into wind, biggest hazards left and back, between clubs for PGA Tour players....one of the better combo set of conditions that might actually have players laying up with a shorter club, rather than hit extra club and risk the back bunker, if the wind suddenly stops gusting.
- Most unusual green is 6, with a sharp swale running off the back right....right into a sand bunker. The 12th had a little collector swale running to a chipping area mid right into the green (472 yard par 4)
-Card says 7601, but construction foreman says they added back tees to get it to possibly over 7900.
-Cart paths (8 foot wide, IMHO< should have been 10') at tees and greens only. Trying an "old driveway look" with two gravel tracks/paths with grass between to minimize hard surface along the length of fairways. They put a drain line under each gravel track, including some cross drains to make it practical. I think it should work, even with the turd floaters we get here in N Texas, but time will tell. In the end, concrete may have been cheaper, LOL.
-North Ridge Bermuda fw and rough, Tif Eagle on greens.
As always, just my humble opinion from what I saw in a quick tour. A nice addition to the DFW golf scene.
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7900 yards with all the par fives over 600?
I guess the PGA is not thinking the equipment will ever get dialed back.
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7900 yards with all the par fives over 600?
I guess the PGA is not thinking the equipment will ever get dialed back.
Surely/Shirley it’s a mis-quote and it should read 9,700 yds? :)
Atb
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7900 yards with all the par fives over 600?
I guess the PGA is not thinking the equipment will ever get dialed back.
What else could they think?
I didn't get the impression it would necessarily be played at 7,900, but that they wanted flexibility to have some holes play longer and shorter each day. At what yardage, who knows, but since the course isn't even finished they have time to figure that out (The PGA I presume will do it, not Gil, but he may have input.)
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https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/construction-nears-completion-on-both-courses-at-pga-frisco#
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Video - Behind the Scenes at PGA Frisco with the GCSAA, featuring Gil Hanse: https://vimeo.com/515288449
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I just hope they have a late season sale on lift tickets