Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Carl Rogers on December 01, 2018, 09:51:21 AM
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I will never get to that part of the world, but what does surprise me is that Ran did not give Royal Melbourne West a '10'. From what I have read and pics viewed through the years, I assumed RMW would be a slam dunk for 4 - '10's'.
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Even the best custodian rarely gets a 10.
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I will never get to that part of the world, but what does surprise me is that Ran did not give Royal Melbourne West a '10'. From what I have read and pics viewed through the years, I assumed RMW would be a slam dunk for 4 - '10's'.
Does he elaborate?
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Funnily enough, Ran is the one who wrote up Royal Melbourne for the Gourmet's Choice, heaping praise upon it. It probably wasn't the place to talk about his reservations, whatever they are.
I don't know which is more surprising- that our Australian correspondent only gave RM a 9, or that Ran rated two of my courses higher than RM.
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This is the only guide where have not played any of the courses. I do have to get to Australia and NZ before I get too old to enjoy the golf there. Hopefully 2020.
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I will never get to that part of the world, but what does surprise me is that Ran did not give Royal Melbourne West a '10'. From what I have read and pics viewed through the years, I assumed RMW would be a slam dunk for 4 - '10's'.
Ran did give RMW a 10, it was Darius that awarded a 9.
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The possibility that RM composite is a far superior course to RMW makes it harder to give RMW a 10 than other comparable courses.
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At the risk of repeating something I’ve posted several times before on a variety of forums, I’m not certain Composite is far superior to West. When you think of holes like 9,13,16 on West being omitted from the Composite, the gap between the two is perhaps not as broad as people suggest.
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I will never get to that part of the world, but what does surprise me is that Ran did not give Royal Melbourne West a '10'. From what I have read and pics viewed through the years, I assumed RMW would be a slam dunk for 4 - '10's'.
Ran did give RMW a 10, it was Darius that awarded a 9.
My bad, got confused.
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The Composite Course isn’t superior, it does have a modern length par 5 but it’s purpose is to be a competition layout to avoid road crossings not a selection of the best 18 of 36 on the property.
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The Composite Course isn’t superior, it does have a modern length par 5 but it’s purpose is to be a competition layout to avoid road crossings not a selection of the best 18 of 36 on the property.
Sorry Mark - I disagree - IMO the "traditional" composite course routing is superior to RMW.
1 to 4E + 17 & 18E are 6 holes as good as any on the property.
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2E is not demonstrably better than 9W but it is longer and so better suited to pro play.
16W is arguably better than 4E and better suited to pro play.
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MM
I love 16W but you really can't fit it in a "composite layout" - whereas you can easily use either 4E or 16E.
17E is the only relatively lesser hole for mine in the six named above.
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“Fit into a Composite course” is not the issue at hand Kevin. The question we are considering is whether the Composite is superior to the West, and when holes like 9W and 16W are omitted, the answer is not as straight forward as some might assume.
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MM
I respect that but I still fail to see how West 1 / 14 / 15 and 18 (for starters) are better than any 4 East holes used in a "composite" routing?
Going further - If we stick to purely hole v hole as a comparison: 1 East v 1 West = no brainer to East same goes for 18 - surely?
As such - for mine - as a whole the 6 East holes add the quality of RM in a "composite" routing and are the reason why I rate the composite course the only 10 in Australia that I've seen.
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I will never get to that part of the world, but what does surprise me is that Ran did not give Royal Melbourne West a '10'. From what I have read and pics viewed through the years, I assumed RMW would be a slam dunk for 4 - '10's'.
Ran did give RMW a 10, it was Darius that awarded a 9.
Isn't Darius a member at RM? If he plays there more than TD plays Crystal Downs each year, maybe his familiarity with the course brought it down one point for him.
Not to say that TD doesn't know the ins and outs of CD seeing as he consults there as well and all.
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MM
I respect that but I still fail to see how West 1 / 14 / 15 and 18 (for starters) are better than any 4 East holes used in a "composite" routing?
Going further - If we stick to purely hole v hole as a comparison: 1 East v 1 West = no brainer to East same goes for 18 - surely?
As such - for mine - as a whole the 6 East holes add the quality of RM in a "composite" routing and are the reason why I rate the composite course the only 10 in Australia that I've seen.
Kevin, mentioning 1W and 18W as you have in this discussion doesn’t add much given both holes feature in the Composite course too.
I respect your opinion on what you think is better - Composite or West. Again, I’m suggesting the gap between the two is not as much as people might think. Your view of Composite as the only 10 is your view, and you’re welcome to it. Just as the multiple judges in TCG are welcome to theirs in awarding 10 to the West.
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Jonathan,
Darius is a member at Peninsula/Kingswood. His issue is with the choice of fairway grass but for me that's nowhere near enough to drop it down a point.
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Kevin, mentioning 1W and 18W as you have in this discussion doesn’t add much given both holes feature in the Composite course too.
I respect your opinion on what you think is better - Composite or West. Again, I’m suggesting the gap between the two is not as much as people might think. Your view of Composite as the only 10 is your view, and you’re welcome to it. Just as the multiple judges in TCG are welcome to theirs in awarding 10 to the West.
MM
I note your point re: 1W + 18W but I mentioned 1E + 18E by comparison as I believe they are far superior holes.
I respect your opinions as well and agree - each to their own.
BTW - which composite routing do you prefer the 1998 Presidents Cup or the 2019 version ?
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KP,
I'm not so sure that 1E is better than 1W for the likes of you and 1 particularly with the modern driver. You bang it long left and pitch up the green. For the pros (and that is why the Composite exists) 1W is better. 1E is a drivable par 4 for them and probably just a iron left. Similar at least 18W asks the question about line and length. You have to work the right combination as the further right you go the more club you need. 18E these days would end up being driver and short iron for the pros. The green is more interesting in that there are a couple of pin positions tucked behind bunkers that are near impossible for mortals but I think the tee shot on 18W is better.
When you are comparing those 4 holes you are talking about 4 really good golf holes. A little like all the comparisons of Barny Dunes and Lost Farm. For most people there is nothing in it...……..
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However highly one rates the Composite Course at RM, I don't agree that it is relevant to assessment of the West.
I'm sure that if (purely hypothetically) Shinnecock Hills and NGLA hit hard times and merged, then created a composite course for tournament play taking the best 18 of the 36 available, that some would judge it superior to either existing course. Would that require SH and NGLA to be automatically downgraded to 9s?
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However highly one rates the Composite Course at RM, I don't agree that it is relevant to assessment of the West.
I'm sure that if (purely hypothetically) Shinnecock Hills and NGLA hit hard times and merged, then created a composite course for tournament play taking the best 18 of the 36 available, that some would judge it superior to either existing course. Would that mean that SH and NGLA must be automatically downgraded to 9s?[/font]
I think that will be Judgement Day or Armageddon or perhaps if something like I am Legend happens. Perhaps life on earth will cease to exist before that happens. ;D
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2E is not demonstrably better than 9W but it is longer and so better suited to pro play.
16W is arguably better than 4E and better suited to pro play.
2 East is a much better hole than 9 West. In addition to its valued length, it features a more intimidating drive, with the threat of OB, and a second shot much more uphill than 9 West. The green doesn't have the same interesting angle, but the fact that the green is above the approach shot and is so quick, with a greater number of more interesting pin positions puts it well ahead.
16 West is a terribly overrated hole, with bunkers that don't even look like they are from the same course.
3 East is a much more interesting hole than 14 West with the land it sits on.
The first 400 metres of 15 West are a dog hole; the green complex can't make up for that level of public course nonsense preceding.
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Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?
If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME. There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.
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I look forward to opening #5 over the Christmas holidays. Since I’ve never played any of the courses, I’ll have lots of opinions.
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This geographical area still has the numbers one and two on my want to play list: 1. RMW 2. Tara Iti
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Tom,
I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.
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I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.
I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course. I thought the stretch of the 5th-9th holes was a real weakness originally, but I like all of those better now, and the 11th and 13th are much better than I had recognized. I still could have gone either way with a 7 or an 8, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt; there are too many world-class holes there for none of us to give it an 8.
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At the risk of repeating something I’ve posted several times before on a variety of forums, I’m not certain Composite is far superior to West. When you think of holes like 9,13,16 on West being omitted from the Composite, the gap between the two is perhaps not as broad as people suggest.
Sorry Matt, that wasn't the debate I was trying to start. More saying that RMW is at a disadvantage to other courses in contention for a perfect score because the others dont potentially have a better course on the same property.
Anyway, it hasn't stopped 3 of the confidential guide judges from giving a 10 an I dont really care for ratings in general so it's probably a moot point anyway.
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Ah ha - sorry to misinterpret you Dave. I now understand what you meant! And for what it’s worth I agree.
And thanks Tom for your views on the East course. Most members think it is 2 or more shots harder than West, as you suggested. I agree that stretch of East 10-13 is under appreciated. It is also better for the work on it in recent years.
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I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.
I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course.
That's pretty revealing. It suggests that if you got to know some other courses a lot better, their scores also could change dramatically.
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I suppose the bigger question is what changed at RME from the original Guide to this edition that it went from 6 to 8.
I know the East Course a lot better now, for one thing, and it's a really testing course.
That's pretty revealing. It suggests that if you got to know some other courses a lot better, their scores also could change dramatically.
Well, I'm entitled to change my mind occasionally when I feel it's warranted, but don't hold your breath for other big changes. In general, I give the benefit of the doubt to a lot of the courses that have good bones, so there isn't much room for them to score higher as the result of good consulting work. This is one of the rare cases where I hadn't given that benefit of the doubt. It's really more of a one-point jump, and those happen all the time.
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It's really more of a one-point jump, and those happen all the time.
Tom Doak, you are one of the greatest golf course designers that ever lived...but that doesn't give you the right to revise the decimal number system!
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Just finished V5,
My main takeaways...
- The world is a big place. Seems like South America and Asia have the best potential for producing new 8+'s in the 21st century.
- Felt like the tone on Japan from the collaborators was much more positive overall than Tom's comments in the last edition (Kasumigaseki excepted)? Not sure if the 4 authors collective thoughts were also influenced by the relative costs vs 20 years ago when the previous edition was written?
- Carrying over from a thread a few weeks back, Lan Hai/Yangtze Dunes was the course that I'd never heard of that I now want to go play based on the single picture in the new edition. Tom - was the picture from before or after Clayton's recent work?
- I really, really wish my first trip to OZ wasn't still 14 months away. Already counting down the time.
Michael
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- Felt like the tone on Japan from the collaborators was much more positive overall than Tom's comments in the last edition (Kasumigaseki excepted)? Not sure if the 4 authors collective thoughts were also influenced by the relative costs vs 20 years ago when the previous edition was written?
- Carrying over from a thread a few weeks back, Lan Hai/Yangtze Dunes was the course that I'd never heard of that I now want to go play based on the single picture in the new edition. Tom - was the picture from before or after Clayton's recent work?
I had just put the book to bed for publishing when I saw the press release about Yangtze Dunes. I'd known Clayts was working on something over there but didn't realize it was the same place that Masa really liked "before". We could not get there in time to see it "after" but I will do so if I ever get back that way.
As for Japan, my original reviews were from my first trip there in 1991 or '92, when we were on a mission to see all the "big" courses. Since then, Ran has been to rave about Naruo and Darius saw a few places I hadn't that he liked, but I had to go to Tokyo this spring to sit down with Masa and get him to open up about a few of the hidden gems there. Those are the ones I want to see now.
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Tom,
Do you sense that most of the work in the regions covered by Vol5 will continue to go to "brand name" designers for the foreseeable future, or will there be more regional specialists developing? It seems like, at least anecdotally, there have been more and more young Chinese and Thai agronomy interns in the States? Has the % and quality of local talent increased on the crews you use overseas?
Michael
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Michael... good 411 on the first impressions. I'm anxiously awaiting my copy as being so far I'll have to wait a while longer. I'm close to Asia comparatively and will use it to help plan some golf vacations for sure.
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Another excellent volume...
... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.
Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.
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Michael,
The picture of Lan Hai is our new work.
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Another excellent volume...
... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.
Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.
You weren’t alone Ally!
As usual, there were a few scores that stimulated discussion, especially among the Australians with whom I’ve discussed the book. Makes for interesting chat during a round, that’s for sure!
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Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?
If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME. There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.
Tom,
Volume 5 is pretty impressive, leaving me with the feeling that there are many miles in the golf world I haven’t traveled.
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Thanks for the thread. Was waiting for it to arrive and found out it was never ordered.
Commonwealth got 7-7-7-7 and was one of three nominations for worst remodel. Tom had it as an 8 in prior volumes. Would it be capped as an 8, or could it have been a 9? Pretty sure Huntingdale's remodel was far worse.
When you have so many good courses in one area does the bottom range of good clubs seem to grade out slightly lower than if it had been in a less competitive region.
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Just came today! Looking over it the first couple hours a few impressions:
1. Asia golf owners wanted big name players to design many of their tracks.
2. Wow Brian Curley must have made a fortune at Mission Hills alone! I want to research that again and figure out why they gave him so much business there. I knew it was a huge complex but why give them this many courses? Also curious his relationship to the name players in Shenzhen area.
3. Jack Nicklaus got rewarded well for getting on the plane quite a bit. Pretty good number of courses for his company, not sure how much he was actually there himself.
4. Liked that in Australia several courses have credits of designed by some members.
5. Was hoping to see Cathedral Golf Club listed, although I'm sure it was because I think it just opened last year so probably not enough time to get there (outside Melbourne).
6. Thailand is overrated for golf and it shows with a bunch of 4-5's. I have golfed several times there and the clubhouses are great, the courses not so much.
7. A new target of mine is Himalayan in Nepal. Looks like a wonderful treat and Nepal is so beautiful would be a great trip. Thanks for highlighting it as a Gourmet's Choice.
Will go through it over the next week or so intensely I'm sure as it really is a Xmas present for us golf geeks.
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Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?
If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME. There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.
You've hit the nail on the head regarding 99% of golf architecture writing. I am forever grateful that you did get to Dunes at Seville before it closed.
Signed,
The guy that wants to take Tom Doak to Brooksville Country Club
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Wow, all those miles I flew the past two years and the only thing anybody comments on is whether Darius was too stingy on RMW?
If you're going to argue about Royal Melbourne it would be better to dissect who was right about RME. There are some great holes in the back paddock as well.
You've hit the nail on the head regarding 99% of golf architecture writing. I am forever grateful that you did get to Dunes at Seville before it closed.
Signed,
The guy that wants to take Tom Doak to Brooksville Country Club
Brooksville CC is alright!
Jeff,
I don't think any architect made a fortune in China, many were not paid or paid less than what was agreed. A lot of free work was done because that was expected in order to land a job. Moral of the story, get paid up front.
Listen to Derek Duncan's feed the ball podcast interview he just did with Brian Curley. He answers a few of your questions.
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Tom,
Do you sense that most of the work in the regions covered by Vol5 will continue to go to "brand name" designers for the foreseeable future, or will there be more regional specialists developing? It seems like, at least anecdotally, there have been more and more young Chinese and Thai agronomy interns in the States? Has the % and quality of local talent increased on the crews you use overseas?
I'm not in a good position to answer the last question, because I bring the talent with me for the courses we build, so as not to be handicapped if the locals aren't up to the task.
To the first question, it seems to me that the wealthy of Asia are even more into international name brands than Americans are, so no matter how good the locals are, somebody who wants to sell that they're building a special course almost has to bring in an overseas designer, even if they are no more than a figurehead.
Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.
Meanwhile New Zealanders don't care about name brands at all. Luckily for me, the best projects there have been developed by Americans and are not marketed to Kiwis as much as they are to overseas visitors. 😉
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Another excellent volume...
... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.
Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.
Ally,
I gave it a 9 and my opinion comes first. I think my associates missed something there. But they've only seen it once and they all lost to me in our tournament there 😉
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Jeff:
If you or anyone else wants to go to Nepal, please email and I will put you in touch with the director of golf at Golarna Forest, who set up my whole visit. You can't go to Nepal and not meet him: as I said in the acknowledgements in the front of the book, he's the Tom Morris of Nepal.
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Another excellent volume...
... If I’m honest, the biggest surprise for me was that Tara Iti *only* got 8’s across the board.
Given it’s lofty Top-100 ranking and the number of people on here that rave about it as definitely a Tom top-3, I was expecting it to average around 9.
Ally,
I gave it a 9 and my opinion comes first. I think my associates missed something there. But they've only seen it once and they all lost to me in our tournament there 😉
This was my biggest surprise as well. Granted I haven't been to the regions covered in this book, BUT I know several people who have visited Tara Iti, and all came back with glowing reviews. Half a dozen of them have said that it is in the discussion for the best course in the world. I don't know if it is that discussion or not, but sounds like more than an 8 to me.
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Tom,
Most Australians consider Lake Karrinyup,The Lakes,Royal Queensland,Victoria,Kingston Heath, Commonwealth,Royal Canberra and Peninsula/Kingswood top Australian clubs:)
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Clayts,
Maybe you've just become a "Brand Name"?
Michael
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Michael..
Heaven forbid:)
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Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.
All?
When I was 15, my high school Legal Studies teacher taught me one of the most valuable lessons of my life, which I still refer back to weekly. I had a habit of being overly definitive in an effort to make the strongest possible argument/point.
"Never be definitive unless you absolutely have to be," was his advice. "Superlatives will hurt you more often than they'll help you."
As Clayts points out, there's plenty of top clubs here that are doing well with Australia's premier firm. Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do.
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Likewise, all the top Australian clubs want an American consultant, the same way they all wanted MacKenzie's help when he arrived in 1926.
All?
"Never be definitive unless you absolutely have to be," was his advice. "Superlatives will hurt you more often than they'll help you."
As Clayts points out, there's plenty of top clubs here that are doing well with Australia's premier firm. Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do.
You're right, it was a poor choice of words. It just seems that way when I go there and there are a half dozen places that want to see me.
Also, though, I've turned down a few clubs who did make it seem like having my name attached was more important to them than whatever we might have done.
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When I was 15, my high school Legal Studies teacher
;D ;D
[size=78%]Not to mention the fact that it does you a disservice to suggest that the top clubs you're consulting to in Australia primarily sought you out because you're American and not because you're one of the best there has ever been at what it is you do. [/size]
Like NSW and Norman?
The Aus and Nicklaus?
Kooyonga and Hawtree?
Grange and Norman?
RM and Hawtree?
Yarra and Hawtree?
The potato farmer and Coore?
Atrocean and Doak?
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I have been waiting on this volume for a while and excited to read through. My uneducated 2 cents
Lake Karrinyup is a little lower in the ratings than I might have thought, while the front nine is solid I think the back 9 is one of the best in Australia and a great tournament test. I really like what OCCM have done with the refresh.
Loved seeing Albany in the mix - fond memories of hitting a 7 degree driver of the deck to get under the wind.
Having played a number of Thomson/Wolveridge courses the note about Alice Springs being one of their best is on the money. The view of the range and the way the 8th is carved between 2 rock faces is fun to play and a nice bunch of members. Trust me though there is no other reason to be in Alice Springs except to pass through.
The note on Kooyonga as a good member course is spot on, A very enjoyable day but RA is the better test.
Agree the Australian is boring and feels just like another Jack Nicklaus course - a course calling itself thenAustralian should at least feel like an Australian course!
A bit kind to Royal Canberra - the back nine is very good but the front nine has been screwed up a bit by the club unfortunately- too much long rough.
I find myself in agreement with the Melbourne rankings mostly, nice to see Commonwealth and Victoria ahead of Metro. Feels a little kind to Yarra though.
I loved St Andrews Beach - arguably best value for money I have seen. Moonah is awesome and a highlight for Norman, played it in tournament mode and member tees and is good on both accounts.
Thanks to Tom, Darius, Ran and Masa for this edition, great to have a reference guide for the homeland!
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I understand Tom raising the score of RME. After my first playing I wondered what all of the fuss was about and agreed totally that the early holes in the back paddock were let down. I have changed my tune after several plays and find the 11th one of the best simply designed holes i have seen. I think that wider courses where angles of play are important tend to be the easiest to miss in terms of quality. There are those rare courses where you keep seeing new things after many plays (NGLA most notably) and RME falls into that rare camp. Great courses get better with each play and Tom saw that in RME.
Great call on Waverly in NZ. I might be inclined to go higher but the sheep must have been doing a better job in 2017 with the mowing!
I wonder if the other 3 raters have only seen Tara Iti once (visit). My guess is that it is better than an 8 but I think it is similar to RME in terms of seeing more features in successive visits.
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Not to thread jack or pull up RM West again but I have a question.
Am I off base that I didn't care much for holes 13-16? They just seemed a bit off from the rest of the course.
Ken
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Ken--
I think the reason you think that the holes across the road on RMW are not of the same quality is because the land is pretty flat and is not as interesting as the holes in the main paddock. Saying this, two of my strongest thoughts on the course came from those four holes. I stepped on the 13th tee and described the hole to the group as, "131 yards of wow" because I loved the way the hole looked and going to 15 (which most folks think is the weakest hole on the west which is understandable) I blurted out, "this hole looks straight out of Sunningdale." I love the subtle angles that 14 present and 16 is a strong par 3 that is a bit different than the rest of the course, you could argue that the green is a bit out of character and a bit too difficult for a hole that long. I'm sure I will get a chorus of disagreement here but it is easy to think of 15 as easy.... until you change the par to 4 and number 5 at NGLA pops into mind when I think this. I've seen a 3 made on 15 and a 7 made on it without seeing a really bad shot hit so to me the hole is fine and quite good.... it just suffers in comparison to the remainder of the course.
One more surprise from Volume 5: Tom Doak gave the same score to Mission Hills Blackstone and Shanqin Bay. I like Blackstone a bunch (and I think 7 may very well be correct as a score) although it would be even better if they irrigated it less but I did not see it in the same league at SB. The site of SB was impressive, I loved the greens, and there were subtle features like the little hump in front of 2 green that made it a world class course.
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As usual Adam, very astute comments. Thanks for contributing.
13 on West has to be one of golf’s best example of making a silk purse from a sow’s ear.
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13 on West has to be one of golf’s best example of making a silk purse from a sow’s ear.
I agree that 13 West is an underrated hole, but the same goes double for 13 East.
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Of the 15th (434 meters/477 yards), which was formerly the 4th hole on the old “Sandringham” golf course, architect Alister MacKenzie remarked “I’ll leave it more or less as it is, to show people how bad the old design was.” I didn’t think the 15th was half bad, though the tee shot is a bit dull.The tees are left of frame (this is the view from the 14th green) and pointed at the wide and rather flat fairway viewed yonder.Once in the fairway, things may get a bit more interesting, especially if the green is within reach. If it is not, the broken ground up ahead is cause for concern.One can lay up past the broken ground and carry bunker (favor the right side) for an easy uphill approach.
Ken--
I think the reason you think that the holes across the road on RMW are not of the same quality is because the land is pretty flat and is not as interesting as the holes in the main paddock. Saying this, two of my strongest thoughts on the course came from those four holes. I stepped on the 13th tee and described the hole to the group as, "131 yards of wow" because I loved the way the hole looked and going to 15 (which most folks think is the weakest hole on the west which is understandable) I blurted out, "this hole looks straight out of Sunningdale." I love the subtle angles that 14 present and 16 is a strong par 3 that is a bit different than the rest of the course, you could argue that the green is a bit out of character and a bit too difficult for a hole that long. I'm sure I will get a chorus of disagreement here but it is easy to think of 15 as easy.... until you change the par to 4 and number 5 at NGLA pops into mind when I think this. I've seen a 3 made on 15 and a 7 made on it without seeing a really bad shot hit so to me the hole is fine and quite good.... it just suffers in comparison to the remainder of the course.
One more surprise from Volume 5: Tom Doak gave the same score to Mission Hills Blackstone and Shanqin Bay. I like Blackstone a bunch (and I think 7 may very well be correct as a score) although it would be even better if they irrigated it less but I did not see it in the same league at SB. The site of SB was impressive, I loved the greens, and there were subtle features like the little hump in front of 2 green that made it a world class course.
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Kyle
I have read the good Doctor's comments re 15 at RMW. I think I read in Dr. Green's book that 15 is the only hole to survive from the original RM to present. Keep in mind that MacKenzie did not hold Pine Valley in high regard either. Also most holes on older courses have changed in how they are played because of equipment. What was a dull 3 shotter can become an exciting gambling risk/reward type hole.
As an aside it is always interesting to read an architects view on a hole that they do not necessarily like that others do. Sometimes the take has merit, other times I wonder what the heck they are thinking.