Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Noel Freeman on October 12, 2018, 07:44:56 PM
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For the old guard here many know I am an apologist for all things Deal. There is no other course in the world I would want like Sir Peter Allen to play my last round. If I had my druthers I would do a year in Deal and bother Mark Chaplin every week.
The greenskeeper at Deal does a STELLAR job of maintaining a blog about what he does there..
It looks like in concert with Martin Ebert and the R&A, the course is being changed in some respects. Now I heard about some of these changes years ago but they are finally happening.
#16 will now have an alternate fairway around the large bunker about 300+ yards from the tee. In the past I believe that fairway might have been there in one incarnation of the course. What makes it interesting is it takes the valley of inglorious security out of play and may allow I'm guessing better angles into back pins-- I would need to play it.
#3 now will have its tee far left of where it was and almost play like a dogleg. There will now be hillocks/dunes created on the right side of the hole that abuts the sea wall.. I like this change depending on how it is done as from the current tees I have driven it on the sea wall for an unplayable.
#2 new back tee
#17 looks like cored new fairway. New sandy fairway area which also abuts 5.
The only issue I have is some bunkers that look like they have frilly edges to them. See around the 2:25 mark in the video from the blog below on #16, I think #10 has some as well. Deal has historically had pot bunkering. In the old pictures from Horace Hutchinson's book and pre war there were sandy wastes all over the course. Time and the Army having occupied the course during WW II with fortifications obviously changed that appearance but I don't really love different bunker styles on a course. I have to see it in person to render a judgement but I know this greenskeeper is amazing. Deal has been awarded the 2020 British Mens Senior Amateur so the R&A must like what the club is doing.
I wonder will it ever get back on the Rota? Something tells me they will be able to stretch the course to 7600 to 7700 yards if need be with some work. Other than crowd control as the course is narrow and you've got a great venue ready for an Open Championship. There is a ton of room for hospitality tents and for railway access to the club on the farm across the street and abutting the range.
https://royalcinqueports.wordpress.com
Look at the Oct 7th video...
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The 16th double fairway could work nicely. I don’t know the course nearly as much as others so this is just an impression.
Quality of the work looks very good.
The ideas look all too familiar however.
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Looking forward to getting there next August, nice to have as a reciprocal club
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The greenskeeper at Deal does a STELLAR job of maintaining.
James Bledge great guy and occasional poster on here.
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The greenskeeper at Deal does a STELLAR job of maintaining.
James Bledge great guy and occasional poster on here.
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Noel
One thing about M&E is that they do there homework on the history of a course so I suspect they will have attempted to tie in bunker style to times past, although with a course as old as Deals the bunker style could likely depend on what era they look at.
It does sound as though you are generally positive about the changes which is good to hear. With regards to the hillocks etc on the 3rd hole, they did similar work at Troon and I think the results were excellent.
Niall
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Having been to two Opens in the past decade as much as RCP would provide a stern test to the players there simply isn’t the space for the Open. The logistics required are quite staggering.
That aside the changes look great, I had a very quick look during my 24 hours in Deal apres St Andrews and pre holiday. The changes to 3 should speed play and make the hole much safer, it will be difficult to hit the sea wall, I won’t say impossible! The dune returns some land to nature and protects walkers from errant golf balls. 16 returns once again to be a great par 5 rather than another long 4.
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Love Deal and changes look great.
I'd agree with Ally that Ebert seems to be following a theme of mixing bunker styles, I guess that was done at Portrush and Turnberry as well as others and now Deal.
Anyone know if that by chance is going back to what was originally there?
Ally and I discussed recently that it may become questionable once you start to recognize a certain companies work everywhere without knowing who is working there. Not that this work doesn't look good just seems to have a homogeneous feel to it.
I'd be interested to hear what other think.
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If it was just a few courses, I’d be absolutely fine with it, David... But we’re talking minimum 20 links courses here, following the exact same theme.
I’m also very happy with mixed bunker styles but when it’s so obvious that every fairway bunker is 100% frilly and every greenside bunker is fully sodded, it can sometimes look a little forced.
The Castle Stuart hybrid style is one that I like better and that has inspired me more.
Personal opinions though...
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After this work Deal will have around 33 revetted fairway bunkers and 10 rough edged bunkers. 3 or 4 rough edged ones went in over the last couple of years but the two newest bunkers built last season were fairway revetted pot bunkers. So it doesn’t look like we will go fully one way or other.
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Looking forward to getting there next August, nice to have as a reciprocal club
Reciprocal from where?
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I’m in London until the 21st. This will be my first trip in nearly 12 years of visits that I have not been able get down to Deal. I really wanted to see the updates to the course. James Bledge is an amazing course manager and we are very lucky to have him at Deal. He has improved the course dramatically every year since he took over. The guy is one dedicated genius!
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I wonder will it ever get back on the Rota? Something tells me they will be able to stretch the course to 7600 to 7700 yards if need be with some work. Other than crowd control as the course is narrow and you've got a great venue ready for an Open Championship. There is a ton of room for hospitality tents and for railway access to the club on the farm across the street and abutting the range.
Noel and all RCPers,
I have always been a fan from afar of RCP. That video of the current work makes it look even more appealing.
That said, I would move for IMMEDIATE removal from "147 Custodians" if you go for "Rota" status. They are mutually exclusive, IMO. Send the crowds to Sandwich, and revel in the reality that the course looks awesome today, under refined construction. The USGA and R&A are not the friends of "147 Guardians".
PS - I know Royal St George's and Pebble Beach are on the list. There are always exceptions to the rule!
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I wonder will it ever get back on the Rota? Something tells me they will be able to stretch the course to 7600 to 7700 yards if need be with some work. Other than crowd control as the course is narrow and you've got a great venue ready for an Open Championship. There is a ton of room for hospitality tents and for railway access to the club on the farm across the street and abutting the range.
Noel and all RCPers,
I have always been a fan from afar of RCP. That video of the current work makes it look even more appealing.
That said, I would move for IMMEDIATE removal from "147 Custodians" if you go for "Rota" status. They are mutually exclusive, IMO. Send the crowds to Sandwich, and revel in the reality that the course looks awesome today, under refined construction. The USGA and R&A are not the friends of "147 Guardians".
PS - I know Royal St George's and Pebble Beach are on the list. There are always exceptions to the rule!
Im sure holding on to 147 Guardian status will drive all future decision making.
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I'd suggest that the R&A are very much the friends of the type of courses as typified by the GB&I courses on Rans list. I hate to think what the state of the game would be now if the professional sports bodies had been in charge.
Niall
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I'd suggest that the R&A are very much the friends of the type of courses as typified by the GB&I courses on Rans list. I hate to think what the state of the game would be now if the professional sports bodies had been in charge.
Niall
+1
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I'd suggest that the R&A are very much the friends of the type of courses as typified by the GB&I courses on Rans list. I hate to think what the state of the game would be now if the professional sports bodies had been in charge.
Niall
I'm not sure. Would a friend would drop heavy hints that a course really had to have tees at 7300 yards if it wanted them to return on an 'official' visit? Does a friend show favouritism and influence your choice of Architect, meaning your course is more likely to ressemble their other 'friends' courses? There are also examples of them dictating maintenance methods.
Not the kind of friend I want.
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Tony
As you know I've been a member of a club that's had the R&A hold events and the first thing to say is that they don't force you to do anything. They can suggest changes and I suppose ultimately decide not to hold the event if you don't agree to the changes although I've heard of clubs who have decided against certain proposals and the R&A being happy to accept that.
The other aspect is that they pay for the architect's advice (which the club can either take or leave) and I believe they also pay for any agreed work that is done. On top of that they also pay for the use of the course, which in turn brings in extra revenue as visitors want to play the course that's just hosted the Open/Amateur/Seniors or whatever.
In short, they are in no position to force themselves on the club and conversely, from what I'm told, act in very amicable and professional manner. What's not to like ?
Now, where's my R&A membership application forms ?
Niall
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Niall your post is pretty accurate, the R&A facilities fee certainly covers costs. A hidden benefit of hosting R&A events is STRI agronomy support from 2 or 3 years out, that can really help the course manager to get the resources they need to present the course in the best possible way.
Mike Sweeney you don’t “go for rota status” I very much doubt the R&A are looking for another Open venue, the hidden infrastructure investment in venues is immense, increasing the gap between visits isn’t a good investment. For a club like RCP we produce the best possible course we can. Fortunately through the Hewitt and other events the “right R&A people” see the course and club on a regular basis. If they ask the club to host an event we are honoured to do so.
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Mark - I thought the British Amateur was the perfect event for RCPGC. It was a huge success.
The other event I would to see the club host is the Walker Cup. After attending the WC at National Golf Links and LACC I can confirm that RCPGC would be an excellent venue for this event. Just the right size club and facilities for the typical attending audience.
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Michael the Walker Cup is the toughest event to host, every 4 years, rotates around the home nations, not just links courses, etc. Sadly after a run of great non-Open venues there is a current run of 3 straight Open venues Lytham, Hoylake and St Andrews. Let’s hope that’s broken in 2027 which I’d guess will be Royal Porthcawl, that leaves 2031 first realistic opportunity.
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2019 Royal Liverpool
2021 Seminole Golf Club
2023 St Andrews
2025 Cypress Point
2027 ?
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2019 will be 7-8 Sept at Hoylake... around the time of the Buda! Should make for a great trip!!!
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2019 will be 7-8 Sept at Hoylake... around the time of the Buda! Should make for a great trip!!!
Maybe we should invite the 2 RC teams to play in the BUDA?
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Looking forward to getting there next August, nice to have as a reciprocal club
Reciprocal from where?
Royal Canberra 😀
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Looking forward to getting there next August, nice to have as a reciprocal club
Reciprocal from where?
Royal Canberra 😀
Aye, I was able to visit several Aussie courses via my RCPGC membership. Very sweet!
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I call any course that will accept me to play with a letter saying I am a "Royal" club member or whatever as a "Huckaby." I've turned down so many Huckaby's over the past 40+ years that my head swims.......
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Rich not sure what your point is, you don’t agree with reciprocal arrangements or clubs being honoured by the Head of State?
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Mark - I had the same question about Rich’s comment. What’s the problem with a club having reciprocal arrangements with like-minded clubs? Plus, being part of the “Royal” network is not unlike clubs that share a “brotherhood” with other clubs sharing a common designer like Braid, Fowler or MacKenzie.
Perhaps he was just making some kind of obscure inside-joke stab at Huckaby.
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Mark, Mike,
as a long standing member and herald for 'ROYAL' Dornoch I suspect his comments might be a little 'tongue in cheek'. :)
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M&M
It may just be me, but I have played many "Royal" clubs and do not find any of them to be "like-minded" other than being populated with golfers. In fact, my observation is that the more "Royal" a club becomes the less "like-minded" are their members.
Rich
PS--I have no probs with Mr. Huckaby. He is a GCA icon.
PPS--I do not think that the purveyor of "Royal" status (i.e. Head of State Betty Windsor) knows or cares a thing about golf, other than that it keeps Prince Andrew occupied. At least our Head of State can golf his ball.
rfg
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PPS--I do not think that the purveyor of "Royal" status (i.e. Head of State Betty Windsor) knows or cares a thing about golf, other than that it keeps Prince Andrew occupied. At least our Head of State can golf his ball.
rfg
You must be very proud of the Don ;D
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4 clubs have been granted Royal status since the Queen took the throne.
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PPS--I do not think that the purveyor of "Royal" status (i.e. Head of State Betty Windsor) knows or cares a thing about golf, other than that it keeps Prince Andrew occupied. At least our Head of State can golf his ball.
rfg
You must be very proud of the Don ;D
Jon
I'm not proud of anybody other than myself and the rest of my family (of whom none are of the Trumporleone family).
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4 clubs have been granted Royal status since the Queen took the throne.
So what?
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PPS--I do not think that the purveyor of "Royal" status (i.e. Head of State Betty Windsor) knows or cares a thing about golf, other than that it keeps Prince Andrew occupied. At least our Head of State can golf his ball.
rfg
You must be very proud of the Don ;D
Jon
I'm not proud of anybody other than myself and the rest of my family (of whom none are of the Trumporleone family).
well that's the rest of the world f$*"ed then ::) . Can this thread get anymore bizarre???
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Bizarre indeed!!!
What the Hell is going on... Rihc is starting to sound like Kavanaugh. :o
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Bizarre indeed!!!
What the Hell is going on... Rihc is starting to sound like Kavanaugh. :o
Thanks for the compliment, Miek!!
See you at the Dixie Cup. ;)
Rich
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Yes, Royal Tarlair v Royal St Georges, that would be an interesting match up ;D
Mark – going completely off topic but are you sure that Her Majesty was the one who conferred royal patronage and not one of her family ? I don’t have Scott MacPhersons book but I’m fairly sure he outlines who granted what and to whom and it wasn’t all the reigning monarch.
Niall
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Yes, Royal Tarlair v Royal St Georges, that would be an interesting match up ;D
Mark – going completely off topic but are you sure that Her Majesty was the one who conferred royal patronage and not one of her family ? I don’t have Scott MacPhersons book but I’m fairly sure he outlines who granted what and to whom and it wasn’t all the reigning monarch.
Niall
Big hitter, Her Madge.
Give the Lama a game. Here’s the list:
http://www.golfalot.com/golf-courses/royal-golf-clubs-2776.aspx (http://www.golfalot.com/golf-courses/royal-golf-clubs-2776.aspx)
F.
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There used to be two Royal clubs in Singapore. Initially Royal Singapore and later the Royal Island Club which ultimately merged to become the Singapore Island Country Club, a club with two different sites on one small island.
Wasn’t there a Royal Hong Kong as well?
Atb
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Yes, Royal Tarlair v Royal St Georges, that would be an interesting match up ;D
Mark – going completely off topic but are you sure that Her Majesty was the one who conferred royal patronage and not one of her family ? I don’t have Scott MacPhersons book but I’m fairly sure he outlines who granted what and to whom and it wasn’t all the reigning monarch.
Niall
Big hitter, Her Madge.
Give the Lama a game. Here’s the list:
http://www.golfalot.com/golf-courses/royal-golf-clubs-2776.aspx (http://www.golfalot.com/golf-courses/royal-golf-clubs-2776.aspx)
F.
If one looks closely at the list, you can see that all Royals are rubber stamped by the reigning Monarch, but a few also have "Patrons" (e.g. Duchess of Sutherland at Dornoch).
That being said I wonder how Royal Belfast and Royal Portrush got stuck into the England column and Royal County Down is with Ireland. Does this maybe be a precursor as to whether Brexit is going to be hard or soft or just completely f***ed up? :-\
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There used to be two Royal clubs in Singapore. Initially Royal Singapore and later the Royal Island Club which ultimately merged to become the Singapore Island Country Club, a club with two different sites on one small island.
Wasn’t there a Royal Hong Kong as well?
Atb
There was indeed a Royal Hong Kong Thomas. Nice enough courses on top of a hill with a great view. It was 30 years ago when I played it so no idea what the situation is now.