He was the partner of MacKenzie on his West Coast courses--a junior partner but one who made many decisions on his own while MacKenzie travelled and was out of touch.
When we did a study for Washoe County a few years back, I was convinced that someone knowledgeable had designed this course, assome of the green pad shaping was very good and subtle, indicating that someone well versed in golf construction had done the work. (Others appeared to have been modified later)Their pro told me he had seen a plan for the original course, and the graphics were identical to the Alistair Mackenzie plan for the Ohio State golf courses, suggesting a connection.
In November of 1934, the Reno Evening Gazette reported that the Reno Chamber of Commerce had retained Robert Hunter, Jr. of the American Golf Course Construction Company of Oakland, CA to select a site, recommend one, and provide “definite cost estimates” for both construction and upkeep.
The American Golf Course Construction Company was formed by Robert Hunter, Sr. who had a design partnership withMackenziefrom 1926-1929. He lived until 1942, while Mackenzie passed away in 1934.
Robert Hunter, Jr. was put in charge of the construction company, which built many of the courses designed by Hunter/Mackenzie, including Cypress Point, Sharp Park, Haggin Oaks and Pasatiempo in California.
The American Golf Course Construction Company obviously lasted beyond his father’s design partnership to take on other work under his son. From the similar graphics and construction style, it appears they retained both a talented draftsman and several construction employees from the original partnership. I have no idea who did what, however.
Another article in the same paper on October 11, 1936 announced the official opening of the first nine holes. It mentioned (vaguely) that the course was designed by “one of the outstanding golf architects in the country.” My guess is that Robert Hunter, Jr. used the more famous name of his father in marketing, even though he had officially retired from golf course architecture on March 16, 1929 for health reasons.
Josh,
Hunter- Pasatiempo
Regarding the question in the opening post, I think the fair answer is "we don't know". Certainly Dr. MacKenzie was not around much on some of these projects after his original design, and had to rely on someone with talent to get them in the ground. For some, there was a crew of guys that MacKenzie had brought from Ireland who did the actual shaping work. I think the clearest case for Hunter's talent is The Valley Club, because it doesn't look like MacKenzie ever went back there to check on it, and I don't think Hunter brought any of the Irish crew down there either ... in which case Occam's Razor suggests that he is the most likely person to have taken charge of it. And it's pretty good!
But still, that doesn't mean he could have done the same on his own. His only solo work is Berkeley CC ... you can't say that makes him a genius. I don't think he was another Perry Maxwell or Alex Russell. Their work on their own dwarfs Hunter's.
Tom,
I agree that "we don't know" but would argue that also applies to any possible Hunter solo work -- because there was none. With Maxwell and Russell we have a sufficient body of their solo work to judge that was done AFTER they had already worked with and learned from MacKenzie.
Hunter at Berkeley was 1920, with Watson, and well before his partnership with MacKenzie starting at Meadow Club in 1926. And the land was far from ideal for a golf course. Certainly Berkeley is not a fair representation of any theoretical Hunter solo work.
Imagine having the co-architect of your course on your Green committee and not employing his advice?
Josh:
Responding to your list above:
1. The connection (if there was one) to Pittsburgh is unverified and doesn't seem very likely.
2. Capuchino was never built.
Capuchino was built, and later became El Camino GC.
3. Woodside was never built.
Woodside remains a mystery to me. In addition to the articles below noting work on constructing the course was actually taking place, the 1931 Annual Guide notes the course had opened in June of 1931.
4. There is that picture of the fellas in front of the Dana Point water tower, but that course was never built.
Agreed that the course was never built, and there is more proof that Mackenzie and Hunter were there than just a picture.
5. Hunter Senior was not involved with Sharp Park (Junior oversaw construction and grow-in).
Hunter Sr. was at the very least initially noted as having been retained along with Mackenzie to do the design. The timing of this announcement is curious, as the Mackenzie/Egan partnership had been formed in March of 1929.
6. His involvement at Seascape and Aptos Beach is unverified as far as I know.
The project was also known as Rio Delmar.
7. Despite such references, MacKenzie and Hunter were not involved with Mare Island.
Agreed.
Hey Josh,
Regarding Pasatiempo, I have and read letters from Hunter to Hollins and MacKenzie that are describing budgets, routings, land plans and just about everything else you would expect from someone very involved in the project.
Josh:
I agree with you on all of that. I just think some people want this discussion to devolve into "Hunter would have been a great architect, if he'd had the chance," based on projects he did with MacKenzie where no one really knows just how much responsibility he had. And that's a ridiculous discussion to have. You might as well make the same case for somebody who never actually built a course!
You could have the same discussion for any of my courses. Would Barnbougle have been just as good if Brian Schneider and Mike Clayton had finished the course and I had never returned to wave my hands around shaping greens? Maybe, for all anyone knows, but that's pure speculation.
You've all read his book, haven't you?
Do you still want to maintain there is no way to judge his merit as an architect? Remember that the book was published prior to the bulk of his work. Is there anything he did later that is at odds with the principles he espoused in "The Links?"
You could make the same argument about Mackenzie on quantifying the impact on a project.
Sven
You've all read his book, haven't you?
Do you still want to maintain there is no way to judge his merit as an architect? Remember that the book was published prior to the bulk of his work. Is there anything he did later that is at odds with the principles he espoused in "The Links?"
Sven, I’ve read the equivalent of Sean Arble’s book (his thousands of very informative posts on here) but there’s a bit to go before I declare him a master architect.
I always liked Hunter Ranch in Paso Robles. A little on the short side, but a pretty pleasant course.
One other note: one of the reasons we are having this discussion about MacKenzie is because he made his helpers partners, shared the credit, and empowered them to draw outside his lines.
I don't think his level of involvement was less than Donald Ross or Old Tom Morris or Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus, but they don't tell anyone who was helping them or let the others talk to the newspapers, so there is a lot less for you to work with to rewrite the credits on their projects.
[/quote
Tom,
Doesn't it seem like he (with numerous partners) was more consistent in quality than some of the others, notably Tillie, who was credited with a wide variety of styles, which I attribute to different builders doing his far flung work? Mac worked even wider in the world, but his Australia courses, his CA courses, Crystal Downs (more the front nine) and UM in Michigan, all retain his signature bunkers and some greens, etc. Tillie was a bunkering genius when Bell was working on the SF bunkers, but a bit blah in MN and a few other places, for comparison.
I wonder what Mac's secrete for success in that regard was. His green details are nice, but don't seem to convey enough info for everyone to fall in line with his style. I suspect there were some other photos or verbal/written instructions to go with them? Inquiring minds want to know. Or, with little fanfare and credit he sent a trusted shaper to all these jobs?
Of course, for us modern guys, having your own crew, or relying on the relatively consistent talent of a big contractor helps. I wonder how it got done on the ground in those days, with fewer site visits allowed by travel constraints, etc.
Sven, MacKenzie, and as far as I know of, Hunter had zero input at the Max Behr-designed Capuchino
Sven, MacKenzie, and as far as I know of, Hunter had zero input at the Max Behr-designed Capuchino
Tommy:
At the very least, they were initially engaged to do the design and worked on plans. Do you have anything confirming Behr's later involvement?
Sven
July 10, 1926 San Francisco Examiner -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Capuchino%20-%20San%20Francisco%20Examiner%20July%2010%201926_zpslaaodbjt.png)
Sven: it's a good point to wonder here how many projects like Capuchino are misattributed because someone wrote a newspaper story prematurely based on a press release or something.
A certain number of projects change hands for all sorts of business reasons, so I am pretty careful now never to announce something before there's a contract in place (unless someone from The Golf Channel insists on announcing it first). Just this year I had a project in Mexico that was announced in some venues, but there were so many twists and turns with the client (who are a complicated joint venture) that I have given up the job now. But had they or I said anything publicly your grandson would "prove" it was mine.
Swen,
Yes I do.
The article is wrong. At least in my opinion, it is. They’re writer is confusing it with Union League/Green Hills, which was right next door. Capuchins was designed by Max Behr and built by A. Herbert Wilson.
Sven, That was a Spell Correct error. I know how to spell your name. It’s the fucking operating system that changes it while I’m not looking!
Sven, That was a Spell Correct error. I know how to spell your name. It’s the fucking operating system that changes it while I’m not looking!
Sven, That was a Spell Correct error. I know how to spell your name. It’s the fucking operating system that changes it while I’m not looking!
I know what you mean, Tomy.
Sven, That course was never built.
As I stated, I'd really like to see something tying Behr and Whiting to Capuchino. I've heard people say it, but I haven't seen it yet, and all of the timing aspects point to MacKenzie and Hunter doing a plan in July of 1926 with construction starting less than a month later and the course being nearly completed in early 1927. I am not ruling out that the other team came in during that window, but without any concrete evidence it doesn't seem plausible.
Sven, Take my word for it.
Sven, I don’t partake in revisionist history. You do what you gotta do!
Well, according to that last clipping it was Hunter and "H. Spens Black" [I think; it's a bit fuzzy] who are responsible for making an interesting and exacting test of the course.
Sven ... I think Hunter was attributing the plans to Watson because of the contradiction he realized in teaching sociology while at the some time endeavoring into the elitist circles of Bay Area golf. One has to know the mental struggle Hunter was coming down (up) from...writing about poverty (Poverty in America), workers rights and all sorts of "downer" topics. Golf became his salvation...yet it was also so very contrary to his relatively new position at Berkeley.
Sven - I think the "Hunter" plans you refer to are contained in the Pacific Golf & Motor article penned by Hunter above which is a survey of the course by E.W. Morgan (engineer). This plan shows the course as it was built originally. To our knowledge Hunter did not draw anything himself. He oversaw Watson's work, including the original plans which are preserved by way of a scan copy made many years ago.
I always liked Hunter Ranch in Paso Robles. A little on the short side, but a pretty pleasant course.
Which he had absolutely ZERO to do with, especially considering it was built +/- 55-Years after his passing.
Sven,
Are you aware that “laying out a course” is also the term that surveyors and contractors use when they stake out the positions of features that the architect has drawn up?
On a more general point, this is the only California project I know of where Mackenzie was not around for at least part of the construction process.Sven,
Sven, MacKenzie, and as far as I know of, Hunter had zero input at the Max Behr-designed Capuchino
Tommy:
At the very least, they were initially engaged to do the design and worked on plans. Do you have anything confirming Behr's later involvement?
Sven
July 10, 1926 San Francisco Examiner -
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Capuchino%20-%20San%20Francisco%20Examiner%20July%2010%201926_zpslaaodbjt.png)
Swen,
Yes I do.
The article is wrong. At least in my opinion, it is. They’re writer is confusing it with Union League/Green Hills, which was right next door. Capuchins was designed by Max Behr and built by A. Herbert Wilson.
On a more general point, this is the only California project I know of where Mackenzie was not around for at least part of the construction process.Sven,
Dr. MacKenzie was not around for any of the construction of Valley Club, and it remains an open question whether or not he was ever on site at Meadow Club during construction. And if you include renovation projects it's not clear he was on site for any of the construction at Claremont or Lake Merced.
Should we discount his efforts there as just a bunch of overzealous salesmanship on the part of the clubs?