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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bill Brightly on May 15, 2018, 06:37:30 AM

Title: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Bill Brightly on May 15, 2018, 06:37:30 AM
The course looks really cool from the photos I've seen. Have there been GCA threads about C & C's work here?
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Andy Johnson on May 15, 2018, 08:10:05 AM
It's very cool. C&C weren't able to cut into the ground because it's a landfill so a unique project for them. Most the greens are perched up, some of them will remind of Pinehurst #2 with how they repel shots. It's almost always windy since the land fill sits above the trees and can get going pretty fast thanks to the new strain of Zoysia they use Trinity Zoysia. It will be fascinating to see how guys play it, there are some approach shots where you have to land wedges short of the green to get them on it when it's the firm and fast. It's a place where sometimes you have to aim away from the hole to get it close, a rarity for the PGA Tour.


I have been told the Tour has slowed down the course, notably growing the fairway grass around the greens to longer heights than it's kept for member play. I know they are very concerned about player grumbling with it being a new site that one of their biggest sponsors is behind AT&T. I really hope it's firm and fast, like the course was intended to be. I will be out there this week starting today and will give a more detailed report from the ground.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: David_Tepper on May 15, 2018, 09:22:30 AM
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/5/13/first-look-pga-tour-heads-to-coore-and-crenshaws-trinity-forest
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 15, 2018, 02:41:25 PM
Zac Blair is in the field this week. Given his love of classic architecture he should do very well this week. Go Zac!!!
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Mike Hendren on May 15, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/5/13/first-look-pga-tour-heads-to-coore-and-crenshaws-trinity-forest

"A big week for minimalism."  So have we reduced minimalism to mean there is no containment mounding on the holes' peripheries?

Bogey
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Howard Riefs on May 15, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
A few threads going back to late 2012…
 
A New Golf Course in Dallas?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54210.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54210.0.html)

Any news on the advances of the C&C project in Dallas?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58185.msg (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58185.msg)

Byron Nelson at Trinity Forest
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65813.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65813.0.html)

Some Trinity Forest (Dallas, TX) Pics
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63762.msg (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63762.msg)

Trinity Forest Writeup
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63947.msg (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63947.msg)


Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Terry Lavin on May 15, 2018, 07:55:34 PM
Not very telegenic at first blush.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jason Topp on May 15, 2018, 11:55:57 PM



It does not have the natural advantages of Bandon Dunes or Sand Valley but I will be very interested in seeing how it is received. 



http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65813.msg1571325.html#msg1571325



Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Scott Weersing on May 16, 2018, 08:57:23 AM
I think that some pros will not like it because their game is set up to aim at pins. The pros who do not like the course will be the ones who hit a good shot, in their mind, and then the ball ends up 40 feet away or in a bunker (like Chambers Bay). Pros don't like watching others hit a shot 20 yards right of the pin and then their playing partner has a 5 footer for birdie. Pros don't like watching their ball roll for 5 seconds after hitting a green.


Yeah, the rest of us love seeing the ball roll.


How similar is Trinity Forest to Streamsong? What would pros think of Streamsong?
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on May 16, 2018, 09:50:51 AM
Ari Techner's review:


http://www.golfwrx.com/514656/aris-course-reviews-trinity-forest-golf-club/
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: David_Tepper on May 16, 2018, 09:52:13 AM
Geoff Ogilvy's video tour of the course:
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/5/15/video-ogilvy-taking-us-through-the-best-of-trinity-forest
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Mike Hendren on May 16, 2018, 11:28:39 AM
Notwithstanding my cheap-shot at GShack above I am very interested in watching the tournament at Trinity Forest.  I find the course very appealing from the photographs and likely right in my wheel-house.  While I love the pushed up greens with rolled down edges, I find it ironic that Pinehurst #2's greens have drawn much criticism from the cognoscenti here for devolving into inverted saucers due to decades of top-dressing. 

Bogey
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: PPallotta on May 16, 2018, 12:28:11 PM
I don't understand the comments that suggest the pros won't like it because they can't 'aim at the pin'. They like Augusta National well enough, precisely *because* they can't aim at the pin. And any tour pro worth his salt can appreciate firm and fast conditons that allow for the ground game/run-up shot -- because more often than not that's what they encounter at The Open championship.
I don't know TF, but for many reasons I hope that it garners acclaim and is well regarded (by pros and average joes alike). But IMO we're not doing the course any favours or defending it effectively by using false labels (like 'minimalism') or specious arguments (like 'pros want to aim at pins') or an arrogant/superior attitude (like 'the average golfer doesn't understand').

Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jason Topp on May 16, 2018, 03:10:36 PM
I don't understand the comments that suggest the pros won't like it because they can't 'aim at the pin'. They like Augusta National well enough, precisely *because* they can't aim at the pin. And any tour pro worth his salt can appreciate firm and fast conditons that allow for the ground game/run-up shot -- because more often than not that's what they encounter at The Open championship.
I don't know TF, but for many reasons I hope that it garners acclaim and is well regarded (by pros and average joes alike). But IMO we're not doing the course any favours or defending it effectively by using false labels (like 'minimalism') or specious arguments (like 'pros want to aim at pins') or an arrogant/superior attitude (like 'the average golfer doesn't understand').


Peter:


Most average golfers I have spoke to dislike the course, often vehemently.  They think it is in bad condition because the grass is brownish and the lies are very tight.  They think it is ugly.  They think that the contours render the place to be incomprehensible.  They think a links type course is a bad fit given the soil (I assume clay).   I also fear some of the negative viewpoint stems from the fact they charge raters full price to play. 


I think it could be good but thought it was difficult to form a decent opinion during one round.  That is part of the reason I am so interested to see how this plays out.  The pictures look great.  The hole descriptions look very interesting.  This thing checks all of the boxes from a GCA viewpoint, but from ground level it is difficult to see the bigger picture.   
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Peter Kelly on May 16, 2018, 03:26:54 PM
Looks very cool and will be a kick to see how the pros handle it. Hopefully it will be firm/fast so that the ground game is necessary however Spieth doesn't think so (and he knows it better than any tour pro). From Geoff's site:
Quote
It's like an American links. You've kind of got to play it from the air, not really a bounce the ball up kind of links, but it is still a links-looking golf course. So it's weird, it's unique. It's actually -- Birkdale was kind of the closest comparison I've found to a links course that you kind of have to attack from the air. You get maybe four or five, six holes where you can bounce the ball up, but the way to get balls close is to come in with a higher shot. That's not necessarily true links. I don't want to say that about Birkdale because of the history and everything, but it's just the way I've found to play it well is that route.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: mike_beene on May 16, 2018, 07:43:15 PM
And let's don't confuse any links course with the days before there were sprinkler heads at places like St Andrews. Are there really more than six run ups on the Old Course(and I am not counting the driver running in)?
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Bill Brightly on May 16, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jason Topp on May 17, 2018, 12:22:57 PM
Not sure whether this article is linked above but I liked this quote from Shackelford in GolfWeek:


Aesthetically, Trinity Forest will not impress on television due to the harsh Texas sun and traditional camera stands which flatten out the ground features. And that’s where this momentous debut for the minimalist design movement becomes fraught with danger. After all, for every reference you’ve heard about Coore and Crenshaw or Hanse or Doak or Bandon, the this is the first course by this tribe of old-school thinkers to be built with big-time Tour tournaments in mind


https://golfweek.com/2018/05/15/first-impression-of-new-byron-nelson-venue-this-is-going-to-get-wild/ (https://golfweek.com/2018/05/15/first-impression-of-new-byron-nelson-venue-this-is-going-to-get-wild/)
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Frank_M on May 17, 2018, 12:39:27 PM
I don't care about Trinity Forest because 1. it's a private club 2. it's cookie-cutter (does any new golf course have a fresh theme anymore?).

It feels like every new course I play or hear about is an inferior Bandon or iteration of Streamsong. It's like you can play one of them and know exactly what every other one is all about.

And to boot, they expect me to shell out three c notes and an additional C for a caddie for the "experience."

Can someone please build a new course that'll cost me under $50 that I can play in jeans and a t-shirt and carry my own bag? Then I'll get excited.  ;D
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Buck Wolter on May 17, 2018, 01:34:15 PM
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Frank_M on May 17, 2018, 01:56:27 PM
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!


None of this speaks to the interest of the finished product. It may be a unique development story, but if that’s what people think makes a tv viewer or paying consumer like a golf course...I think it’s far from it.


Besides that, I can name three courses within a 30 minute drive of my home with a similar story except for the strain of grass.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Buck Wolter on May 17, 2018, 03:13:38 PM
Zac Blair is in the field this week. Given his love of classic architecture he should do very well this week. Go Zac!!!

-4 today T12 right now
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Dan Herrmann on May 17, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
FYI - DirecTV will be broadcasting this event in 4K HDR.   It'll be great to see C & C in 4K!
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Buck Wolter on May 17, 2018, 03:23:14 PM
Thanks for all the responses, this is why GCA remains a great site. I particularly enjoyed this from Ari Techner's review, for those who did not read it:


The course is built on what was an active landfill until the mid 1960s. From the time the landfill closed until they started working on the course in 2014, it was used as an unauthorized dump site for many of the local citizens of South Dallas. You could find all kinds of things on the site including large appliances and boats… there was even an old car on what is now the 17th green.
Building the course was quite the undertaking due to the unique traits of the land. The entire site was capped by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers with an impenetrable cap, preserving the natural humps and rolls of the property. Then the entire property was covered with a minimum of 2 feet of sand. Due to the cap over the ground, Coore and Crenshaw could not dig down into the ground at all when building the course — they had to build up instead. They basically had to identify the lowest point of the lowest bunker floor and build the entire course up from there. They also could not plant any trees.
A new strain of grass was also invented just for the course and the desired firm and fast conditions. Being located in Dallas, the developer and designers knew that the normal warm weather Bermuda or Zoysia would not provide the desired conditions. So they invented what is now called Trinity Zoysia, which is a shallow root Zoysia hybrid that comes very close to imitating the seaside Fescue playing surfaces you see on true links courses.

Cookie Cutter!


None of this speaks to the interest of the finished product. It may be a unique development story, but if that’s what people think makes a tv viewer or paying consumer like a golf course...I think it’s far from it.


Besides that, I can name three courses within a 30 minute drive of my home with a similar story except for the strain of grass.

If TV viewers don't like something different one week per year they can go find an over-watered, tree-lined, narrow course and get their fill.

I'm still confused by what you are complaining about re:Trinity Forest, its too expensive but its exactly the same as 3 other courses you can play --maybe even in jeans and a t-shirt.
 
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Frank_M on May 17, 2018, 03:46:35 PM
I'm still confused by what you are complaining about re:Trinity Forest, its too expensive but its exactly the same as 3 other courses you can play --maybe even in jeans and a t-shirt.


I never said it’s like 3 other courses I can play, I said the background story for Trinity is similar to 3 other courses within 30 minutes of my home.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Andy Johnson on May 17, 2018, 03:47:15 PM
It's an awesome professional golf product. A true test of skill, gotta do it all including think to succeed. Watched the morning wave and it's playing really good. It would be absolutely perfect if the Tour got the fairway cut back to what it is for daily member play. Here's some videos I made for the tournament.


Hanse on TF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C1Tewpj0AM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C1Tewpj0AM)


Coore on #5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAb_B3xLqVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAb_B3xLqVo)


Breakdown of #6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwS2rkgoVto&t=9s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwS2rkgoVto&t=9s)
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Peter Kelly on May 17, 2018, 04:48:31 PM
Trinity Forest GCS Kasey Kauff addressing the "over-watered" rumor: https://twitter.com/KaseyKauff/status/996919251318517760 (https://twitter.com/KaseyKauff/status/996919251318517760)
 
wind is down..as are the scores.


Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 17, 2018, 04:51:25 PM
Have any players publically complained about the course yet?
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Tim Gavrich on May 17, 2018, 05:01:49 PM
Have any players publically complained about the course yet?
Matt Kuchar doesn't seem to like it: https://twitter.com/AdamSchupak/status/997176648436015105 (https://twitter.com/AdamSchupak/status/997176648436015105)


“I’m going to follow the lesson if you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything at all.”
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: BCrosby on May 17, 2018, 06:41:04 PM
I have only seen Trinity on TV, but it looks a lot like Doak's The Loop.


Bob
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Bill Brightly on May 17, 2018, 07:02:33 PM
Have any players publically complained about the course yet?
Matt Kuchar doesn't seem to like it: https://twitter.com/AdamSchupak/status/997176648436015105 (https://twitter.com/AdamSchupak/status/997176648436015105)


“I’m going to follow the lesson if you don’t have anything good to say, don’t say anything at all.”


It won't be fun for me if the pros are not complaining! I bet many will keep there (dumb) opinions to themselves out of respect to Ben Crenshaw. Too bad, some of the funniest comments come from pro golfers and low handicap amateurs trying to talk about good and bad golf course architecture...
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 17, 2018, 07:20:42 PM
Took Spieth, McDowell and Walker 5 1/2 hours to play their round - is that a reflection of how hard it is to understand the course or just pros being pros? McDowell must have spent 10 minutes trying to figure out his chip shot on 17 and he's a guy who learned to play the game on Irish links courses - they need to do something about this.  OK, I will admit it, it does make it easier to take a nap.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 17, 2018, 08:47:51 PM
Took Spieth, McDowell and Walker 5 1/2 hours to play their round - is that a reflection of how hard it is to understand the course or just pros being pros? McDowell must have spent 10 minutes trying to figure out his chip shot on 17 and he's a guy who learned to play the game on Irish links courses - they need to do something about this.  OK, I will admit it, it does make it easier to take a nap.


And after all that time, he pitched it past the pin and let the slope take it back. Spieth looked so done waiting for him to hit.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Edward Glidewell on May 18, 2018, 10:09:32 AM
Took Spieth, McDowell and Walker 5 1/2 hours to play their round - is that a reflection of how hard it is to understand the course or just pros being pros? McDowell must have spent 10 minutes trying to figure out his chip shot on 17 and he's a guy who learned to play the game on Irish links courses - they need to do something about this.  OK, I will admit it, it does make it easier to take a nap.


And after all that time, he pitched it past the pin and let the slope take it back. Spieth looked so done waiting for him to hit.


About time Spieth got a taste of his own medicine! He's ridiculously slow. When he and Rory were paired at the Masters a few years ago, it got to the point where McIlroy would already walk and be waiting down by the green while Spieth was still in the fairway trying to plot out his shot.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Kalen Braley on May 18, 2018, 11:40:31 AM
Just based on what i saw on TV....it most closely resembled the Olympic Course in Rio from the various camera angles...
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: David_Tepper on May 18, 2018, 03:57:47 PM
"Players Embrace Trinity Forest"
https://www.pgatour.com/news/2018/05/18/players-embrace-trinity-forest-setup-conditions-at-t-byron-nelson.html
 
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jim Nugent on May 18, 2018, 03:58:35 PM
Yesterday Spieth drove one of the par 4s... and bogeyed the hole. 

Today he hit his approach on his last hole 11 1/2 feet from the cup.  Another bogey.

That's after finishing the Players with an 8 (quadruple bogey).. and his last tournament before that (the NO Zurich team event) dunking two balls in the water on the last two holes to miss the cut by a stroke. 

I've never seen a top golfer blow up so much.  The flip side is he's a birdie/eagle machine when he's on. 
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Erik J. Barzeski on May 18, 2018, 07:17:59 PM
Zac Blair is in the field this week. Given his love of classic architecture he should do very well this week. Go Zac!!!
T92 as of right now. Still five holes to make the cut, though.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Peter Gannon on May 18, 2018, 11:21:33 PM
I have not lived in Texas for 16 years, but Trinity Forest FINALLY, seems like the course the climate needs. 


Who gives a shite  what the Tour Players "expect".  Anyone coming to N Texas, should expect loads of wind, and not much rain!   (weirdly, too much sleet in the winter times).



Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Dave McCollum on May 19, 2018, 03:39:00 AM
The tour players seem to be embracing the challenge and the course.  These guys are good and can figure out how to score on course as quickly as anyone on the planet.  It's a fact that they're killing it with -15 after two rounds.  Yet, my take at this point is that the new guys on tour are not deserving of our biases about the the old on tour and willing give this place a little thought.  What more could we ask?     
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: PPallotta on May 19, 2018, 10:38:22 AM
As Dave notes, no one 'figures out' a course better or faster than a tour pro. Also, no one knows their own games better -- their strengths and weaknesses and tendencies. But also, IMO, there is never, ever all that much to 'figure out' in the first place. Strategies and options and ideal angles (even relative to wind conditions and pin positions etc) are not secret codes or complex puzzles; they are simple enough to see, and fairly quickly too. IMO, the strength of good architects like C&C isn't in 'introducing' options and strategies into the design -- any & all working architects know how to do that. It's in 'finding' (in the case of true minimalism) ways to have natural/pre existing features serve strategic functions; and/or in 'integrating' (when earth moving from scratch, or as at TF) the options and choices they've created within an overall aesthetic such that the strategies don't come off as a paint by numbers exercise.

Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Frank_M on May 19, 2018, 12:42:27 PM
Peter: regarding incorporating the natural or preexisting features at Trinity, I have yet to see any McDonald’s wrappers  ;)
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Jerry Kluger on May 19, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
I will wait and see how they play Shinnecock and Carnoustie before conceding that they are the best at adapting their play to the course.
To me, the vast majority just want to hit it as far as they can and then hit it at the flag.  Firm and fast drives them crazy as does heavily undulated greens.  We shall see.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Dave McCollum on May 19, 2018, 04:42:48 PM
Jerry, I'm the first to say that tour pros have way too much influence on the game.  In fact, they don't play the same game and represent only a tiny fraction of golfers.  And, yes, a few act like spoiled brats.  Some behaviors at Chambers Bay come to mind.  There was a lot of talk before this event that anticipated the pros were going to bitch about the course.  That doesn't seem to have happened, at least not to the degree predicted.  If that indicates a change in the stereotype, and I'm not sure it does, we should give them some credit.  That doesn't change my belief that the people designing courses, equipment, rules, etc. should pay much attention to what these guys do.  If the game they play doesn't work for the larger game of golf, change their game so that it does.  These guys are so good and worked so hard to get where they are, they would adapt to changes in their competitions almost instantly.  Entirely different story for the rest of us.       
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Thomas Dai on May 19, 2018, 04:54:52 PM
If the Pro’s we watch on TV don’t like it then it’s probably got a lot going for it! Make them play the kind of shots they’re uncomfortable with...ie Pete Dye’s idea of half wedge shot where the bottom of the pin is hidden!
As to relationship to par, well if they can get to a green in two shots then the hole is not a par-5.


Atb
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Dan Herrmann on May 19, 2018, 06:15:28 PM
I love what I'm seeing on TV.   Golf as it was meant to be :) :)
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 19, 2018, 07:12:28 PM
What a breath of fresh air for the PGA Tour. The more variety in types of courses played, the more I’m interested in watching.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Matthew Rose on May 19, 2018, 09:13:01 PM
They all hated Sawgrass too, and now they love it. Of course part of that is because it got neutered a bit, but I still think that they will become kinder over time the more they get to know it.

A lot of famous names didn't like St. Andrews the first time they saw it either.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: jeffwarne on May 19, 2018, 09:20:17 PM

A lot of famous names didn't like St. Andrews the first time they saw it either.


+1
That and they will be giving a large check out at the end of the week-I don't hear Leishman complaining.


Course looks great conditionwise on TV but is very unphotogenic on TV.
i.e. it's hard for the topography and undulation to shine on TV, but no doubt it looks much better from the ground
I always thought the TPC Los Colinas was hideous on TV so it's at least an improvement on that.


I'd say the PGA Tour and the announcers are becoming increasingly enlightened to GCA, and the firm and fast conjurs up memories of munis in Julyl and seems so much less contrived than say Chambers or Pinehurst .
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: PPallotta on May 19, 2018, 09:38:55 PM
Jeff - an honest question, from an average golfer to a very good one:
With firm and fast, isn't it still target golf, only with different targets?
P
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 19, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
Jeff - an honest question, from an average golfer to a very good one:
With firm and fast, isn't it still target golf, only with different targets?
P


Yes but it is much harder to determine how much the ball will roll.  Compared to a soft course where it hits the green and plugs
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Dave McCollum on May 20, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
What do tour players think of golf courses and GCA?  Just about the best perspective I've heard when Geoff Ogilvy discusses Trinity Forest on the State-of-the-Game podcast. Seemed to be an honest, fair, and somewhat uncomfortable assessment of his peer's views about architecture and venues.  Not sure this link works: 


https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/5/16/state-of-the-game-77-geoff-ogilvy-on-trinity-forest





Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: jeffwarne on May 20, 2018, 07:35:16 PM
Jeff - an honest question, from an average golfer to a very good one:
With firm and fast, isn't it still target golf, only with different targets?
P


I don't know what "target golf" is?
I've heard it used to describe penal golf courses I really detested


as you said, all golf has "targets"
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Mark_Fine on May 20, 2018, 08:19:20 PM
Only watched today.  Looks like a nice fun design.  Unfortunately just drive, chip and putt for the big boys.  They are ripping it up but they do that to most golf courses these days.  Not terribly exciting.  Might be more interesting with A LOT of wind. 
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Tom Bacsanyi on May 20, 2018, 08:27:47 PM
Jeff - an honest question, from an average golfer to a very good one:
With firm and fast, isn't it still target golf, only with different targets?
P


Yes but it is much harder to determine how much the ball will roll.  Compared to a soft course where it hits the green and plugs


Agreed.  Players have to manage shape, line, and trajectory to hit good shots at TF.  On most tour stops, nah.  Leishman hit a beautiful 9 iron into a green yesterday that only got about 30-40 feet off the ground and released 20-30 yards to a back pin.  Nice to know those guys can play those shots IF THEY ARE ASKED TO......
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 20, 2018, 09:52:05 PM
Only watched today.  Looks like a nice fun design.  Unfortunately just drive, chip and putt for the big boys.  They are ripping it up but they do that to most golf courses these days.  Not terribly exciting.  Might be more interesting with A LOT of wind.


Rain sure didn't help.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: mike_beene on May 20, 2018, 10:25:31 PM
The absence of rough around the greens is very key to me. I went out there Saturday and in 20 minutes saw more variety of Chips and wedge shots than you used to see the whole tournament. Feels like segmented Old Course size greens with run off like TOC in places and Pinehurst. Visually it is more Murfield or Oakmont but it is wide like TOC. It seems like it wouldn't work but it does. Surprisingly the golf fan and social fan both seem to like it. The clubs and buffets were packed and the crowd flow was much easier than other tournaments I have been to.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: William_G on May 21, 2018, 08:59:52 AM
The absence of rough around the greens is very key to me. I went out there Saturday and in 20 minutes saw more variety of Chips and wedge shots than you used to see the whole tournament. Feels like segmented Old Course size greens with run off like TOC in places and Pinehurst. Visually it is more Murfield or Oakmont but it is wide like TOC. It seems like it wouldn't work but it does. Surprisingly the golf fan and social fan both seem to like it. The clubs and buffets were packed and the crowd flow was much easier than other tournaments I have been to.

the variety of golf shots is the best entertainment, not just bomb, gouge, putt
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Adam Clayman on May 21, 2018, 09:59:08 AM
It was gratifying to see the core principles at work. The wind on Saturday was all a sportsman could ask for. The firmness combined with that wind made for the least nap inducing PGATour event outside a major in recent memory.


It's obvious to me few viewers will alter their perspective on gca because of this. But, it was still nice to see the purported best, have to think, create and deal with rub of the green.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Ira Fishman on May 21, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
GCA’s own Zac Blair’s backboard chip yesterday was a thing of beauty.


Ira
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: John Kavanaugh on May 21, 2018, 12:29:55 PM
Congrats to Zac on a respectable finish. For those on this site who bemoan the existence of the PGA Tour I wish you would all take the time to follow a guy like Zac week to week on tour. Despite Zac's efforts this week he did not move the needle on his Fed Ex Cup standings. I am simply astonished at the pressure these guys are under. No matter what you think about how far these guys hit the ball or how they decide to execute a given shot the fact that anyone can dominate this game over a lifetime is one of the greatest athletic and mental feats in sports and or business.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Carl Rogers on May 21, 2018, 04:13:27 PM
Question: how did the Media (CBS & Sir Nick) reviewed the design and commented on the design?
1. It was almost as if Bill Coore did not exist.  Yes. I realize that they have to play to the more household name, but my impression is that through the years, Coore is the more 'senior partner' of the team and a lot of very capable people work for them and contribute a lot.  No mention of that.
2. Small amount of comment on the zoysia turf grass strain
3. Some positive comment on the Super
4. It struck me as a course that could be maintained with fewer chemical inputs.  It also seemed that there was a single mowing height.


Last observation: The holes at the perimeters of the property are in contrast to the thick dense forest  ... it seemed jarring & uncomfortable to me.  Not much of an effort to transition the 2 landscapes.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Ira Fishman on May 21, 2018, 09:29:42 PM
Congrats to Zac on a respectable finish. For those on this site who bemoan the existence of the PGA Tour I wish you would all take the time to follow a guy like Zac week to week on tour. Despite Zac's efforts this week he did not move the needle on his Fed Ex Cup standings. I am simply astonished at the pressure these guys are under. No matter what you think about how far these guys hit the ball or how they decide to execute a given shot the fact that anyone can dominate this game over a lifetime is one of the greatest athletic and mental feats in sports and or business.


Plus 1. In history of PGA Tour, only 37 players have won 20 or more tournaments. Mr. Crenshaw won 19, and he properly is considered one of the all time greats.


Ira
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: mike_beene on May 21, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
Carl, I don't think you can transition. All those trees are a few feet down from the built up dump and are in the flood plain. Even if you cut them back it would still be a thick backdrop . And the course needed all the dump area so not much room.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Scott Weersing on November 29, 2018, 05:51:53 PM
Did you know that Trinity Forest is a public/private partnership?


Do you know that 25% of the rounds have to be by non-members? I wonder if PGA Tour players counts as non-members.


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2018/05/31/new-city-owned-trinity-forest-golf-club-public-private-see-can-get



Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Matt_Cohn on May 22, 2022, 01:27:08 PM
Just spent four days playing one of the Trans-Miss tournaments at Trinity Forest. Anyone want to chat about it?

Note: nines have been reversed from the GCA profile (https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/trinity-forest-golf-club/). View from the clubhouse patio
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091443333_e28f0b69ec_h.jpg)


Par 3 #3, #15 on the right
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091667914_8252b764d6_h.jpg)


#2/#12 double green
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091667609_b0dedfbc4c_h.jpg)


#4 green/#5 tee
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52090394277_be20290922_h.jpg)


#6 and #14 greens
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52090417242_bb61bb33bc_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Will Thrasher on May 22, 2022, 06:06:31 PM
Just spent four days playing one of the Trans-Miss tournaments at Trinity Forest. Anyone want to chat about it?

Note: nines have been reversed from the GCA profile (https://golfclubatlas.com/countries/trinity-forest-golf-club/). View from the clubhouse patio
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091443333_e28f0b69ec_h.jpg)


Par 3 #3, #15 on the right
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091667914_8252b764d6_h.jpg)


#2/#12 double green
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52091667609_b0dedfbc4c_h.jpg)


#4 green/#5 tee
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52090394277_be20290922_h.jpg)


#6 and #14 greens
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52090417242_bb61bb33bc_h.jpg)


Great pics. Looking firm and fast. Shame the tour doesn't stop there anymore.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Matt_Cohn on May 22, 2022, 06:38:27 PM
Great pics. Looking firm and fast. Shame the tour doesn't stop there anymore.


Yeah, conditions were awesome. The greens weren't crazy hard, but I still only repaired a handful of pitch marks in 4 rounds. Hardest course I've tried to photograph though. So flat and open. Panoramas are the only way to do it!
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: PPallotta on May 22, 2022, 07:15:21 PM
It's too much to ask, Matt, but if you're ever so inclined I think many of us would much enjoy and learn from an 18 hole 'review' of TF entitled: "Perspectives from the Edge -- A Good Player Tackles a C&C design under Tournament Conditions".
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: Matt_Cohn on May 22, 2022, 09:09:38 PM
It's too much to ask, Matt, but if you're ever so inclined I think many of us would much enjoy and learn from an 18 hole 'review' of TF entitled: "Perspectives from the Edge -- A Good Player Tackles a C&C design under Tournament Conditions".


Well shoot, as long as you've done the hard part already...


Actually I wouldn't mind doing that at all. Kind of a nice way to summarize my own thoughts on a relevant course.
Title: Re: Talk to me about Trinity Forest
Post by: JMEvensky on May 23, 2022, 10:16:39 AM
Same request as Peter--I'd rather hear how a golf course plays to a good player than see a lot of random photos.