Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_malone on March 18, 2018, 05:18:18 PM
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It ain’t a five but I don’t care about par. What’s the point?
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It ain’t a five but I don’t care about par. What’s the point?
You're right Mike, and if tiger wins this after that OB, it would be another legendary feather in his cap.
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I was thinking, how hard would it be to fire up one of Arnie's tractors and push some dirt out into that pond for another tee 50 yards back? That would be a cool spot to both watch the action on 18 and for the fans to get a sneak preview of the guys coming home!!
Make Bay Hill Great Again!
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Build a tee on a pile of old automobiles #Cooperstown #Otesaga
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Well Ron,
If we've learned anything in the last month or so, there's no use limiting the ball flight or otherwise. The solution is to make Golf Great Again by continuing to disfigure courses Joan Rivers style!! :D
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It ain’t a five but I don’t care about par. What’s the point?
Mike I'm a bit confused. Your title calls the hole silly and then your post says you don't care about par?
Anyway, I have no problem with it exactly as it is. Why is it that we generally feel the need to define a hole based on what players (in this case the very best) score on the hole or how easily the hole is to reach in two?
I feel it's a fine par-5 at a critical point in the round which makes for a lot of interesting scenarios.
In the end, everyone plays the same hole, so....truly...who cares what "par" is stated on the card?
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Frank,
I think I’m saying this is a good example of the silliness of par since players are inside 150 yards for their second.
I just find it annoying that a hole is called the easiest based on the play to par. I would much rather hear that a hole has the least or most stroke dispersion. That might tell me more about how interesting it is.
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I was thinking, how hard would it be to fire up one of Arnie's tractors and push some dirt out into that pond for another tee 50 yards back? That would be a cool spot to both watch the action on 18 and for the fans to get a sneak preview of the guys coming home!!
Make Bay Hill Great Again!
so they can hit 9 iron in? ---Rory had 119 in
Random thoughts
Notice guys who can't hit their drivers don't have to? (Stenson, Woods)
Par 4 tees on tour are littered with divots.
An announcer called a 441 yard par 4 "short" today.
Do the yahoos who supposedly watch the PGA tour for long drives get excited when the pros hit irons off 1/2 the tees now?
Tiger just went 54 for 54 on putts inside 9 feet for the week-anyone still think super fast greens(and the corresponding green design and pins that go with them) are harder for elite players?
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Here is Tiger's quote regarding his OB shot.
"I wasn't committed to what I was going to do,'' Woods said. "If I hit a driver, I have to fit it with a cut. Back of my mind, I said, 'Why don't you just bomb it over the top?' It's only like 320 [yards] to carry, and as hot as it is, the ball's flying. Or just hit a 3-wood straight away, don't do anything. It's going to go 310, 315 as hot as it right now, and that's going to leave me an 8-iron.
only" like 320 yards to carry. And this is from a guy who couldn't get out of bed without help for 6 months. And he's thinking that a 3-wood will leave him an 8 iron.
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I agree, courses change par from 5 to 4 on tour, especially majors regularly. This should be one case in point IMO. Kind of embarrassing as the easiest hole: The par-5 16th hole, which played to a stroke average of 4.354. This will put it into the 5 easiest par 5's played all year. I have no problem with par 5's being scoring opportunities, but when guys have 150 or less into a par 5, that seems like just change the par as opposed to putting in new tees.
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I was thinking, how hard would it be to fire up one of Arnie's tractors and push some dirt out into that pond for another tee 50 yards back? That would be a cool spot to both watch the action on 18 and for the fans to get a sneak preview of the guys coming home!!
Make Bay Hill Great Again!
so they can hit 9 iron in? ---Rory had 119 in
His drive landed on a down slope, which gave him 50 yards or more of roll. If they move the tee back as Kalen suggests, I think he could not carry the trap, would land on a slight uphill, and might face a shot that is 100 yards longer than yesterday's.
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8)
You go Mike , par 4 or 5 who cares!
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So you want to change the one hole that cost Tiger the tournament? It he hole was 50 yards longer it probably would have been a more exciting finish. You guys are on to something. Nothing harder than a hole that you have to birdie, no matter how easy it is.
Did you see those old guys in black jackets congratulating the players at the end of the tournament. Now that Arnie's gone they are probably looking for someone to tell them what to do. Have at it.
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When I say that is silly that is a par five I don’t mean it should be a four or lengthened. I mean we should stop talking about the par of the hole because it is the least important thing about the hole. As I said if they gave the dispersion of strokes instead we might know how interesting 16 is relative to other holes.
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I was looking at google maps yesterday while watching the tourney. The walk from 15 green to that back tee is already long, ~125 yards. Since that hole is already a joke, seems the perfect one to take a step further.
Forget earth moving....they could put in a floating island tee, take a boat ride out to it, while sipping a fully octaned Arnold Palmer!
Sure it'd be different, but the golfing world seems to have already accepted the madness of 16 at TPC Scottsdale, would you not be entertained?
P.S. And if they install one like at Couer D Alene, they could move it further out or closer depending on the day/conditions.
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so they can hit 9 iron in? ---Rory had 119 in
Random thoughts
Notice guys who can't hit their drivers don't have to? (Stenson, Woods)
Par 4 tees on tour are littered with divots.
An announcer called a 441 yard par 4 "short" today.
Do the yahoos who supposedly watch the PGA tour for long drives get excited when the pros hit irons off 1/2 the tees now?
Tiger just went 54 for 54 on putts inside 9 feet for the week-anyone still think super fast greens(and the corresponding green design and pins that go with them) are harder for elite players?
+1.000,000,000
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If you want to get stupid built the island tee in the image of an umbrella. The handle would make a perfect path.
In all seriousness, haven't any of you played holes where if you don't make birdie you feel like you failed. They are a different and very interesting category of architecture. Let's not try to make the game even dumber by taking any self induced psychological drama out of the game.
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Yes.
The 1st hole at Stanford University is an easy par 5 opening hole, and an opening birdie if you're ready to play. A par there was a bit of a disappointment.
For those who play Riviera regularly, I'm sure the same can be said of the 1st hole there.
During the broadcast, the announcers said the average score that day was 4.39. According to this blog post, only one par 4 (Augusta National #1) had a higher average score during the 2016-17 season. I'll suggest the argument that a 4.39 hole is generally a par 5 for the best players.
https://www.pga.com/news/golf-buzz/nightmare-18-hardest-holes-number-in-2016-17-pga-tour-regular-season
One more thing. I don't have a better place to say that I loved watching the tournament yesterday. Most of my favorite players were at the top of the leaderboard. I love Tiger and Rory because as much for their fallibility as human beings as I do for their great talent. McIlroy was incredible yesterday. Rose is the quiet genius of the game. I love DeChambeau, the wacky professor who plays the game different than anyone else. Stenson is another player to pick himself up after adversity. He has inimitable style, and a wry sense of humor when he lets his guard down.
Everybody was watching college basketball yesterday, but I was glued watching all my favorites battling it out on a course that rewarded great shotmaking.
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Eliminating birdies and eagles is just another way to make the 14 handicap feel better about themselves at the end of a round. It's right up there with doing away with the provisional on OB and lost balls. Every made putt no matter if for eagle or triple is a celebration because it was the very best they could do at that moment on that day. I've started rounds birdie, eagle, birdie and finished rounds 7, 7, 7. It's a great story either way. Why should only well played holes get pretty names. It's hack shaming.
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So you want to change the one hole that cost Tiger the tournament?
So, let's do...ummm...math:
Hitting his drive cost Tiger 2 strokes. He lost to Rory by 8.
Sure, without that drive, Tiger would have won!
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I might be mistaken, but wasn't 16 played as a par 4 for a few years?
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So you want to change the one hole that cost Tiger the tournament?
So, let's do...ummm...math:
Hitting his drive cost Tiger 2 strokes. He lost to Rory by 8.
Sure, without that drive, Tiger would have won!
Rory made his birdie run when Tiger folded. Tied for the lead with history ain't like playing on an island.
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So you want to change the one hole that cost Tiger the tournament?
So, let's do...ummm...math:
Hitting his drive cost Tiger 2 strokes. He lost to Rory by 8.
Sure, without that drive, Tiger would have won!
Rory made his birdie run when Tiger folded. Tied for the lead with history ain't like playing on an island.
Busted again John,
Rory's binge started all the way back on 6....hours before Tiger hit OB on 16.
https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.28237.rory-mcilroy.html/scorecards/r009
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Yes he birdied 5 out of the last 6 holes.
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Yes he birdied 5 out of the last 6 holes.
Rory was already at -13 before he set foot on the back 9 on Sunday....Tiger never got past -12.
Myth Busted! ;D
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So you actually believe that if Tiger eagles 16 and takes the lead nothing changes? You are only adding to the myth that high handicappers not only smooth 7 irons 170yds, putt so well that pros ask aspiring young champions to emulate their methods and have balls of Tariff hardened Chinese steel. Me, I can feel momentum from the parking lot.
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This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.
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This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.
What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.
One ball, one world.
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This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.
What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.
One ball, one world.
I really do not like watching the typical tour event, but I watched Bay Hill because Tiger had a chance to win. After his tee shot on 16, I turned the tube off.
For the elite of the pro's, the game has become way too one dimensional. I have advocated a big technological roll back .... ball, club head, shaft type, shaft length, reduce club number, etc
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This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.
What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.
One ball, one world.
I really do not like watching the typical tour event, but I watched Bay Hill because Tiger had a chance to win. After his tee shot on 16, I turned the tube off.
For the elite of the pro's, the game has become way too one dimensional. I have advocated a big technological roll back .... ball, club head, shaft type, shaft length, reduce club number, etc
Did exactly the same thing. Tiger OB. Click.
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I sadly invested myself into the tournament but clicked over to the Syracuse - Mich St. game during a commercial. I came back to see Tiger hitting his fourth shot to the green. I missed the best shot of the day. Except for the last shot Mich St. missed that is.
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It is a par 5 for viewership. We keep score over TV relative to par, and seeing a hole where a player can pick up two shots in one hole makes it exciting. For the players it is about picking up or defending their positions against the course,the field, the leaders and those within their own competitive sphere within the tournament.
Entertainment pure and simple.
Apologies as I have not read the rest of the responses.
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I might be mistaken, but wasn't 16 played as a par 4 for a few years?
It was for the first 30 years it was open. Was originally designed that way. I don't believe it was ever a par-five until around 1990 or so. They've added 60 or 70 yards to it over time and that's why the tees now protrude into the lake.
At one time the 1st hole was a par five and the 4th was a par four. Arnie's made the thing over quite a few times. I think the nines might have even been flipped very early on in its history.
I also remember when the pond on #18 was bulkheaded instead of having the rocks.
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How can such a great golfer like Palmer have such a subpar architectural sense?
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I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.
My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.
And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.
Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.
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I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.
My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.
And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.
Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.
Accept my apology.
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I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.
My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.
And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.
Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.
you had me at bellied putter....the hooded chunck was just gravy...
glad to be of help.
Evidently more people read(1) than listen....
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Jason once again proves that we are the one sport where we hit shots as good as or better than the very best players in the game on a day to day basis. Watching the superior athlete hit a driver or even a wedge further than you is a small price to pay.
I told my wife last night that my buddies on this site want Tiger to hit a softer ball so he can't hit it so much better than them. She just shook her head and said "Don't they understand that every dog has his day?". I then ask if she wanted to go outside and watch me dunk on a 8 foot goal. She asked if I was insane.
I wonder if Jason went home with his burger breath and told his wife about his eagle...
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A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"
I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.
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A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"
I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.
Absolutely not. The sixth grader is not being defended by a NBA'er. I guarantee you that of the 80 or so golf shots I hit each time I play that I will hit at least one that you could give any pro in the world 5 balls and he could not either replicate or improve on. It's the only sport where that is true. If the game is bifurcated we lose the right to doze off at night in the solitary solace of our greatness. Even if it is only one shot.
Ok, maybe not 5 balls. The number of balls would be a wagerable proposition.
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A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"
I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.
Absolutely not. The sixth grader is not being defended by a NBA'er. I guarantee you that of the 80 or so golf shots I hit each time I play that I will hit at least one that you could give any pro in the world 5 balls and he could not either replicate or improve on. It's the only sport where that is true. If the game is bifurcated we lose the right to doze off at night in the solitary solace of our greatness. Even if it is only one shot.
Ok, maybe not 5 balls. The number of balls would be a wagerable proposition.
did you just use the word defense and NBA in the same sentence?
do you not think that "out of 80" possessions there is not a situation where a 6th grader could not get his off the hip slinger off?
Out of all the arguments against bifurcation (and there are several that will probably be deemed insurmountable) , the idea that an amateur "now plays the same game" is the most ridiculous.
starting with the option of 7 sets of tees....mulligans, gimmes, handicaps, no galleries, rules
.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep (over his "game comparison") if a touring pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.
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John,
I think you're delusion is... if we're using the NBA analogy...
Is that you think playing a friendly 4 ball with your buddies is the same as playing in a top notch pro tourney with spectators, distractions, yahoo's coughing in your backswing and shouting "You Da man"... and pressure otherwise.
Cause unless your a proper sandbagger like Larry F, (who is also accustomed to performing under intense pressure), you'll be puking all over yourself...
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.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep if a pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.
Those guys are not serious golfers. I think the people who take the game seriously and have contributed so, some for 50 years, are the ones who deserve to be protected from bifurcation.
Kalen,
The only reason I ever hit a bad shot it is because of pressure. Based on the people who can't take their range game to the course I don't think I am alone. Some people play better under pressure, they are usually called pros.
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.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep if a pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.
Those guys are not serious golfers. I think the people who take the game seriously and have contributed so, some for 50 years, are the ones who deserve to be protected from bifurcation.
talk about a .01% group.....
it's been made quite clear that the number one reason we can't bifurcate or rollback because we "don't care about the .01%"
but now we're going to cater to the tiny, tiny group that isn't delusional about how far they hit it?
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Yes we are not going to change how far we hit it to protect those who know how far they hit it. I think it is a much larger group than you think. It is most likely the guys who pay the bills.
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Of the two high profile courses where I am a member I can promise you that 50% of the membership can tell you + or - 3yds exactly how far they carry each club. Let's stop this nonsense that the golfers who support the game day after day are a bunch of blithering idiots that can't hit a decent shot to save their name.
It may take a few holes to adjust to barometric pressure and temperature but a guy just knows these things. This story line that only .01% can hit a shot is just another attempt to make the casual golfer feel better about their game. Truth is, most casual golfers are not in the 99.99%. They are in the bottom 50%. But that just doesn't sound as pretty, does it?
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Of the two high profile courses where I am a member I can promise you that 50% of the membership can tell you + or - 3yds exactly how far they carry each club.
I'm confident that anyone who plays (successfully) in money games at VN is in the .01% and is correct about their carry distance.
which leaves 17000 other courses, and 24,999,750 other golfers, plus me.
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I think JK makes a reasonable argument--assuming I'm understanding it correctly.
Basically since inception, golf has tried to appeal to the highest common denominator of players. Sometime in the last 20(?) years, that pendulum has swung all the way to the other side. Keeping each group happy is an impossibility.
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I think JK makes a reasonable argument--assuming I'm understanding it correctly.
Basically since inception, golf has tried to appeal to the highest common denominator of players. Sometime in the last 20(?) years, that pendulum has swung all the way to the other side. Keeping each group happy is an impossibility.
JM,
I agree with the 2nd part of that statement....all the more reason bifurcation is needed.
Which also directly conflicts with JKs One Ball, One World mantra....which isn't even true anyways. There are already dozens of different balls on the market...
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Obviously since we play the same game as the pros, then we should demand that every golf course is maintained to PGA Tour quality standards.....because otherwise, that would be bifurcation if the golfing masses had to play on anything less.
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Obviously since we play the same game as the pros, then we should demand that every golf course is maintained to PGA Tour quality standards.....because otherwise, that would be bifurcation if the golfing masses had to play on anything less.
That alone would give most of us another 10% distance on roll thus negating this perceived distance problem. The problem with great conditioning is that it increases play to the point that conditioning deteriorates. It is all these unintended consequences that puts me in favor of sticking with what has worked for 400 years. Or at least the last 50 I have been playing.
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Sunday I noticed that Bryson DeChambeau (https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.47959.bryson-dechambeau.html) was playing a Bridgestone ball. Given that he is the smartest guy on tour I was thinking of giving it a try. Does anyone really believe it will perform differently than any other premium ball?
One ball, one world.
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Forget earth moving....they could put in a floating island tee, take a boat ride out to it, while sipping a fully octaned Arnold Palmer!
What is the correct way to "octane" an AP? Gin? Rum? Vodka? Cachaca? Tequila?
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Assume you’re kidding, but since you gave several possibilities, maybe not. Vodka.
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Vodka. Why am I debating with people who don't know these things. https://www.ketelone.com/arniesarmy/
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Because you’re a masterdebater
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Forget earth moving....they could put in a floating island tee, take a boat ride out to it, while sipping a fully octaned Arnold Palmer!
What is the correct way to "octane" an AP? Gin? Rum? Vodka? Cachaca? Tequila?
If I know anything about booze....its why limit yourself! I guess whatever works! ;)
But I'm guessing Vodka probably provides the best flavor combination...
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If everyone in the world wants to buy you a drink keep it simple.
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The only reason I ever hit a bad shot it is because of pressure. Based on the people who can't take their range game to the course I don't think I am alone. Some people play better under pressure, they are usually called pros.
So in a casual round, with no special stakes on the line, you could match shot for shot with the top elite players in the world? That would make your casual golf handicap, what, about +6 or so, playing the tips of the world's hardest courses?
Or on a driving range you could put on as impressive a display as, say, top players on the PGA Champions Tour?
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Yes, if I could play with no pressure I could be a plus 6. Sadly though the pressure of posting 10 scores that low negates the possibility. Yesterday playing alone with my wife is a perfect example. I hit every green but wanted to make a birdie. The pressure of wanting to make a birdie and openly declaring so deteriorated my stroke with each passing green. By the time I reached the ninth I couldn't even get the ball to the hole.
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Yes, if I could play with no pressure I could be a plus 6. Sadly though the pressure of posting 10 scores that low negates the possibility. Yesterday playing alone with my wife is a perfect example. I hit every green but wanted to make a birdie. The pressure of wanting to make a birdie and openly declaring so deteriorated my stroke with each passing green. By the time I reached the ninth I couldn't even get the ball to the hole.
And you disparage High Cappers for being delusional. You've outdone yourself on this one. ;D
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Assume you’re kidding, but since you gave several possibilities, maybe not. Vodka.
I believe thats called a John Daly.....
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So as not to sullie the King’s branding...
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A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"
I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.
A perfect example of how we will celebrate a great shot if the ball is bifurcated.
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh4UuI4a7h8D479kGZ
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A perfect example of how we will celebrate a great shot if the ball is bifurcated.
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh4UuI4a7h8D479kGZ (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh4UuI4a7h8D479kGZ)
That's actually a perfect example...
of how today's Touring pro (or D-1 college player) should feel when putting for eagle on the 13 at ANGC or 16 at Bay Hill...or pretty much any par 5 under 575 yards.
and is an excellent example of why dad and kids, and every other credible sport, use bifurcation effectively.(except for this dad)
Incidentally,basketball has gotten unwatchable as there is zero strategy in shooting a 23 footer.
It's as easy as a 10- 20 footer-maybe easier(like a full wedge) and you get 50% more points for the 23 footer so why not shoot it every time? There is no art in the unassisted 23 footer, and it is increasingly common, thoiugh not quite as sickening as 7 footers kicking it out from 4 feet to open shooters at 23 feet.
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It's amazing the lengths some will go to to complain. Is extended-winter cabin fever to blame?
Wasn't the finish at Bay Hill one of the most interesting on Tour this season?
Players made scores from 3 to 6 on 16, and en route to his win, the greatest driver of the golf ball in this current generation hit a perfect drive that fit into the fairway just so, rewarding him with an easier shot than most of his competitors had.
What a drag... ::)
(Meanwhile, that same great golfer, for whom the game is surely so easy as to be no challenge at all anymore, got beaten in his first match in Austin yesterday.)
What limits would you guys impose on UConn's women's basketball team to make lesser players and teams feel better about themselves?
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That's easy, you lower the goal at the half where the other team is on offense. Even that probably wouldn't work. The best thing would be to have a draft out of high school thus denying the best players the right to choose where the get an education. Kinda like bifurcation, a governing body deciding who plays how and where. What could possibly go wrong with mandated intervention?
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It's amazing the lengths some will go to to complain. Is extended-winter cabin fever to blame?
Wasn't the finish at Bay Hill one of the most interesting on Tour this season?
Players made scores from 3 to 6 on 16, and en route to his win, the greatest driver of the golf ball in this current generation hit a perfect drive that fit into the fairway just so, rewarding him with an easier shot than most of his competitors had.
What a drag... ::)
(Meanwhile, that same great golfer, for whom the game is surely so easy as to be no challenge at all anymore, got beaten in his first match in Austin yesterday.)
What limits would you guys impose on UConn's women's basketball team to make lesser players and teams feel better about themselves?
It's a discussion board Tim...
and the topic is whether 16 at Bay Hil should be a par 4 or par 5...
so I'd say my interjection and John's humor are relevant...
It's not a complaint.
and you are 100% correct that the 16th exposed Tiger's weakness and rewarded Rory's superiority.
It was also a great finish by Rory.
I would argue that Tiger's 2nd place finish a couple of weeks ago was made possible by technolgy rendering Innsbruck no longer a relevant test of driver skill(still a really hard course), and one that can be tiptoed around selectively by a high speed nonelite driver such as Tiger.
When Uconn's women's rivals come out in ProV1 shoes that add 6 inces to their vertical overnight, and then sock optimization gives them another 3 plus another 1/2 inch a year...., and then every competitive b-ball player on the planet has to buy a $1000 pair of shoes and have access to a shoe launch monitor every season to stay relevant, then I'll lead the charge against that...
Rory has a superior skill.Similar in fact to Greg Norman's driving superiority.
IMHO opinion it is diluted on a weekly basis by others using equipmemt to stay near his realm.
Additionally, if they had a ball that went shorter, Tiger would still be wild with his driver, and would be forced to navigate courses he fears driver on with his 245(rather than 275) yard 2 iron while Rory still hit it 300 plus(rather than 330 plus) with his driver.
Tiger's pefectly of accepting 2 iron-8 iron, but not so sure he'd fare as well with 2 iron-5 or 4 iron.(or he'd adapt)
This is not about penalizing DJ or Rory-it's about rewarding their superior skill and athleticism.(well that and containing the scale of our courses)
The long(especially the confident long) will always be long and should be rewarded-but also separated.
a little like my rant about superfast slopeless greens where everybody makes their 6 footers-no separation by a good putter.
and yes, it's the 4th noreaster in 3 weeks.......
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Jeff,
Given we've beat the hell out of the convo on Bay Hill, may as well continue discussing the NBA 3 point line. While I agree in principle, I don't think its apples and oranges.
Prior to 5 or so years ago, you maybe had 1-2 good 3 point shooters on your team. But given what you said in your prior post....teams at the college and pro level are stocking thier teams with 5-7 guys who can all shot the three....including big guys like Kevin Durant. So yes there are far more shots being both attempted and made, but its not without a game plan. The NBA 5 position has been almost entirely obsoleted, as the successful big men in the league can do far far more than just dunk and get boards..
I wouldn't be opposed to lengthening the NBA three if it means restoring balance with more interior play. The 3 point line was initially introduced to achieve balance in the other direction, discourage teams from clogging the short stuff and letting em chuck lower % 2s.
P.S. The art of the 10-15 footer is pretty much all but gone now, unless the guy is wide open. Its either high percentage dunks, layups, short shots....or 3 balls.
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Jeff,
Given we've beat the hell out of the convo on Bay Hill, may as well continue discussing the NBA 3 point line. While I agree in principle, I don't think its apples and oranges.
Prior to 5 or so years ago, you maybe had 1-2 good 3 point shooters on your team. But given what you said in your prior post....teams at the college and pro level are stocking thier teams with 5-7 guys who can all shot the three....including big guys like Kevin Durant. So yes there are far more shots being both attempted and made, but its not without a game plan. The NBA 5 position has been almost entirely obsoleted, as the successful big men in the league can do far far more than just dunk and get boards..
I wouldn't be opposed to lengthening the NBA three if it means restoring balance with more interior play. The 3 point line was initially introduced to achieve balance in the other direction, discourage teams from clogging the short stuff and letting em chuck lower % 2s.
P.S. The art of the 10-15 footer is pretty much all but gone now, unless the guy is wide open. Its either high percentage dunks, layups, short shots....or 3 balls.
Kalen,
I really can't comment on the NBA as that to me has been unwatchable for 20 years-with rare exceptions such as San Antonio.
I thnk the 3 point rules makers never thought 3 pointers would become so commonplace.
Go to any High school game now and they fill it up from 3 land also.
teamwork is lost-I mean why waste a pass or do a beautiful pick and roll when you get three for pulling up and letting it fly.
and a mid range jumper is simply bad strategy....
Given that so many can shoot well now (no doubt encouraged by the three point reward)is there really a need to reward it when the shot is really no harder than a 12 footer?
Pistol Pete and the rare guy that could shoot from downtown were devastating to ooponents because nobody did that and there was real risk of missing. Come out on him and he went by you-now even if he does he dishes and the ball comes right back out.
Now 1/3 from 22 feet is the same as 1/2 from 17 feet.
I'm not saying teams don't have strategy-it's just that the strategy sucks to watch-especially at the lower levels where the combustible combination of selfishness and new era strategy collide.
If all shots were 2, you'd see a variety of different scoring plays-though I will agree the three pointer made the shooting skillls possible.
But they shouldn't change on my account as even college bores me now...
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That's actually a perfect example...
of how today's Touring pro (or D-1 college player) should feel when putting for eagle on the 13 at ANGC or 16 at Bay Hill...or pretty much any par 5 under 575 yards.
And yet in its LOWEST scoring year (2015), it averaged above 4.5 (4.546). Every other year it's been higher.
Par is just a number, but since we view leaderboards by score relative to par, it's more exciting to see bigger moves made (eagles) than smaller moves (birdies) or no moves (pars).
The 13th, by the scoring average, is a near-perfect tweener hole. A half-par hole.
Tim, man, keep it up.
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Jeff,
The reason they do it is simple....it produces better results vs teams with traditional 1-5 role players.
The new paradigm is you have small guys, medium guys, and bigs....and they all more or less can do the same things. Shoot, Pass, set screens, rebounding, etc
But I would very much disagree on the teamwork component. While 10 years ago, it was all about isolation 1 on 1s, if you watch all the best teams now like the Warriors and Rockets, they are very much team oriented with great ball movement where its all about finding the open guy, not isolation plays...which really only happens now at the end of the quarter or late in the game when teams want the ball in their best players hands.
IMO the game is funner than ever to watch because more and more teams play like the run and gun Lakers of the 80s and far less Thug and Slug ball of the 90s.
P.S. My biggest beef with the NBA game is all the traveling....and Lebron is the worst offender. He rarely drives to the basket without traveling (and he's already difficult to defend without giving him an extra step). But its not just him, its most players and they all get away with it. I really wish they would fix this, but I guess fans like watching players take off from the 3 point line, take 3 steps, and jamming one home in traffic.
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P.S. My biggest beef with the NBA game is all the traveling....and Lebron is the worst offender. He rarely drives to the basket without traveling (and he's already difficult to defend without giving him an extra step). But its not just him, its most players and they all get away with it. I really wish they would fix this, but I guess fans like watching players take off from the 3 point line, take 3 steps, and jamming one home in traffic.
Kalen,
You're probably right about the NBA-I don't watch enough to comment.
I'm speaking more about I see at The high school and college level.
The traveling is where they lost me years ago in the NBA.
Now when a high schooler takes 3 steps it's a "euro step" and anyone who questions it is ignorant (or old or both).
Yes impossible to defend someone who carries when he dribbles AND is allowed three steps.
Love watching the same kid get called for traveling 10-15 times in one game, then with different refs not get called at all.
What amazes me most is when a star takes 3-4 steps and no call is made and a nervous sub drags his pivot foot one inch 50 feet from the basket the whistles blow like he robbed a bank.
I really can't watch it anymore and used to love it.
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Jeff,
I admittedly watch less college ball than I do pros....(present circumstances excluded as I love watching the Big dance)
But I see a TOONNN less travelling in the college game, and I appreciate that. The "Euro Step" as they call it now is always tricky because it usually looks bad, but is technically legal when done right. Back when I ref'd and did countless hours of training, they taught us as best as possible to tell the difference, but its still tough at full speed without the benefit of instant replay. The other tough one is what they called the jump step back in the day, where a guy jumps during the act of dribbling, catches the ball with two hands while in the air, lands for his two steps and then leaps again. Looks ugly as hell, but legal if you do it right.
Thankfully college refs are pretty good at it, but most high school refs are just part time weekend warriors... ;)
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Yes, if I could play with no pressure I could be a plus 6. Sadly though the pressure of posting 10 scores that low negates the possibility. Yesterday playing alone with my wife is a perfect example. I hit every green but wanted to make a birdie. The pressure of wanting to make a birdie and openly declaring so deteriorated my stroke with each passing green. By the time I reached the ninth I couldn't even get the ball to the hole.
John,
Looks like Romo is your golfing version Doppleganger...
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/tony-romos-pga-tour-debut-goes-off-rails-late-175545837.html (https://www.yahoo.com/sports/tony-romos-pga-tour-debut-goes-off-rails-late-175545837.html)
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Kalen,
no doubt if I were to play(well that's out), coach or ref again I'd have to relearn the new rules.
Way back in the day there was a reference to a "step and a half" (I'm sure that was pretty confusing so it morphed to two and now another half (at least)
When a 6 foot kid goes from outside the 3 point line to a layup with no dribble-seems like he might be travelling.
You've obviously only stopped reffing in the past 10-15 years or less if you think they don't travel more now in college and high school than they ever did 30-40 years ago- foot creep-it happens-I'd argue MJ began it.
I've seen all the arguments and videos as to why it's legal, but I'd say it's another example of how something just changed and no one wants to go back-and slick interpretation of the rules has made old schoolers feel dumb so they just climb onboard.
No different than telling a 25 year old that the scale of the game would be better if the hit it 280 rather than 310-seems bonkers to them.
Get off my lawn!!
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Jeff,
It'd be same with me. Its been 20 years or so since I was actively reffing city ball and college intramural games. Its always been two steps allowed from when I first learned the game as a kid, so I don't know any different from that.
I should also clarify that college ball only seems so much better when you're used to watching NBA ball almost exclusively, but I suspect you are right.
I guess the biggest difference between then and now is.....traveling was still regularly enforced when I ref'd and with the exception of a few grumblers, people accepted the call and moved on....they knew they was busted. As opposed to now where it seems like players feel entitled to that extra step....or even 4 that I once saw Lebron do in a game without a whistle! ;)
My Dad was old school, he played high school and college ball back in the 50s and he certainly had his complaints about what the game had evolved to by the 80s. I know nothing ever stays the same, and to a large part I even accept how much more physical the game has become....but its that darn travelling that I cannot abide!! ;D
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Jeff,
Interesting article, that just happens to use Lebron as cannon fodder too! ;D But this writer claims the rule has always been two steps. Also explains why as a defender its so brutal trying to guard someone when they're allowed that 3rd step.
http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154 (http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154)
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Jeff,
Interesting article, that just happens to use Lebron as cannon fodder too! ;D But this writer claims the rule has always been two steps. Also explains why as a defender its so brutal trying to guard someone when they're allowed that 3rd step.
http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154 (http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154)
Kalen, it's not just the extra step-it's dribbling too.
When the person you're defending appears to pick up his dribble (has his hand under the ball) and you committ, and then he dribbles again.
They used to call 98 % of the dribbling you see now carrying .
as if basketball needs MORE offense.
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Jeff,
Interesting article, that just happens to use Lebron as cannon fodder too! ;D But this writer claims the rule has always been two steps. Also explains why as a defender its so brutal trying to guard someone when they're allowed that 3rd step.
http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154 (http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154)
Kalen, it's not just the extra step-it's dribbling too.
When the person you're defending appears to pick up his dribble (has his hand under the ball) and you committ, and then he dribbles again.
They used to call 98 % of the dribbling you see now carrying .
as if basketball needs MORE offense.
Agreed Jeff,
No way they was getting away with that stuff back in the day, and Kevin Durant probably exploits this the most. We would whistle a guy for doing that just once coming up the floor....now its pretty much every dribble they hesitate and carry.
While we're at it, we can't forget:
3 in the key - Almost never call this now.
Lane Violations on free throw shots - We were always very strict on this.
5 second rule - Where if you were settled in the half court, you only had 5 seconds to do something with the ball.
Giving the defender space on the throw in.
Not to mention all the massive amounts of contact allowed in pretty much every offensive and defensive set, with or without the ball.
Even Over the back aka Push from Behind rarely gets called anymore unless you take the guy out.
Its all going to hell in a handbasket!! ;D