Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Chris Roselle on March 12, 2018, 08:57:45 AM
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These are a few of the most significant adjustments to the Rules of Golf. I think the last one is probably the one that will garner most of the attention...If you'd like to see what the Rules will look like in 2019 you can go here: http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization.html (http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization.html)
Dropping procedure: When taking relief (from an abnormal course condition or penalty area, for example), golfers will now drop from knee height. This will ensure consistency and simplicity in the dropping process while also preserving the randomness of the drop. (Key change: the proposed Rules released in 2017 suggested dropping from any height).
- Measuring in taking relief: The golfer’s relief area will be measured by using the longest club in his/her bag (other than a putter) to measure one club-length or two club-lengths, depending on the situation, providing a consistent process for golfers to establish his/her relief area. (Key change: the proposed Rules released in 2017 suggested a 20-inch or 80-inch standard measurement).
- Removing the penalty for a double hit: The penalty stroke for accidentally striking the ball more than once in the course of a stroke has been removed. Golfers will simply count the one stroke they made to strike the ball. (Key change: the proposed Rules released in 2017 retained the existing one-stroke penalty).
- Balls Lost or Out of Bounds: Alternative to Stroke and Distance: A new Local Rule will now be available in January 2019, permitting committees to allow golfers the option to drop the ball in the vicinity of where the ball is lost or out of bounds (including the nearest fairway area), under a two-stroke penalty. It addresses concerns raised at the club level about the negative impact on pace of play when a player is required to go back under stroke and distance. The Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite level competitions. (Key change: this is a new addition to support pace of play)
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The Irish Drop is now official.
Interesting they didnt float that for consideration first.
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I like the changes and shows that some rules were not logical to begin with. The 2 stoke penalty for lost ball will help speed up play as will ready golf as the standard. I like the 2 stoke penalty out of a bunker on the same line. Some high cap players simply can't get out of bunkers.
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MARK IT ONCE on the green is the one I think that should be implemented. It will save 30 minutes on an amateur round of golf.
After your first putt you are not allowed to touch the ball, if its in the direct line of the other player he can ask you to putt out.
No penalty for striking an opponents ball or flagstick.
Saves the time of aligning the ball with hole a second time. Saves the time of remarking.
Much less compaction around the hole.
I like the new two stroke penalty option, will stop a lot of NO RETURNS as well.
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
The problem isn't with the rule, it's with your home course. Perhaps you should find a new one.
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
The problem isn't with the rule, it's with your home course. Perhaps you should find a new one.
So every course with 10 holes with OOB right is **** thats a lot of links golf courses gone then including the old lady. :O)
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
It's still essentially a stroke and distance penalty (as it's TWO shots, not one). It just doesn't require you to go back to rehit.
I don't understand the attention to shots that are double hit. How often do any of us actually see this? Once every couple of years?
A few rules may change but pace of play on television will remain glacial.
WW
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From what I understand the new OB stakes where you can take a drop instead of returning to the tee will be colored pink. Not that there is anything wrong with that. One thing I won't miss is the tired joke "Second team All-American" after the inevitable well struck provisional ball.
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I agree with you on the "mark it once" rule, Adrian.
MARK IT ONCE on the green is the one I think that should be implemented. It will save 30 minutes on an amateur round of golf.
After your first putt you are not allowed to touch the ball, if its in the direct line of the other player he can ask you to putt out.
No penalty for striking an opponents ball or flagstick.
Saves the time of aligning the ball with hole a second time. Saves the time of remarking.
Much less compaction around the hole.
I like the new two stroke penalty option, will stop a lot of NO RETURNS as well.
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I'm not convinced this will change the habits of 80% of the people. My guess is that most think the rule is to determine where it went out, drop, prefer and pound away.
The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
The problem isn't with the rule, it's with your home course. Perhaps you should find a new one.
So every course with 10 holes with OOB right is **** thats a lot of links golf courses gone then including the old lady. :O)
Plenty of room left there. I think the course in question doesn't have that.
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Wait a second....this can't be. That last bullet point is bifurcation. The USGA is suggesting bifurcating 'dem rules.
Lowrdy Lard, whats next...different balls? Say it ain't so man! ;D
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I don't think I've ever played a regular (i.e., non-tournament) round of golf with anyone anywhere where a player went back to the tee to hit a second if they found their ball OB. Seen plenty of provisional tee shots if they thought the ball was OB, but if it was unexpectedly OB they just drop and play (but are out of the hole for betting purposes). This seems like a common sense change.
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The proposed rules should help to improve pace of play. However, would someone be able to shed some light as to why dropping from knee height is better for the game than shoulder height is? I simply do not understand why changing the height of the drop is necessary when I have never seen any problem with it.
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The proposed rules should help to improve pace of play. However, would someone be able to shed some light as to why dropping from knee height is better for the game than shoulder height is? I simply do not understand why changing the height of the drop is necessary when I have never seen any problem with it.
Since most peoples' hands don't reach to their knees, how does this work? Will we all curtsey as we drop?
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Changed days from when we had to drop over our shoulder !
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I'm guessing the drop height change is to reduce roll always where you have to re-drop....drop from a lower height and the ball has a better chance to stay put.
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This is so unfair. I have really high knees.
Nice to see the double hit penalty go away. People who suffer the anguish of the double hit really shouldn't have additional penalties sprinkled on top of their embarrassment.
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I'm a little confused.....so If I double hit my ball, its one stroke? Or I count them both but its no penalty ON TOP OF THAT....
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I'm a little confused.....so If I double hit my ball, its one stroke? Or I count them both but its no penalty ON TOP OF THAT....
My understanding is that it's just the stroke that you intended. No penalty... as long as it is accidental.
Thank goodness they eliminated the loophole of the intentional double hit...
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I was looking around, and it looks like they "fixed" one of my pet peeves...not being able to fix scuff or spike marks and damage otherwise on the green.
P.S. Supposedly the original proposal for the drop was 2 inches, but was deemed too close to the ground.
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I have done the double hit on a putt a couple times and a chip shot once. Weird as you never think it is possible. I would have thought another rule that is odd and extra penal is if you hit yourself with the ball. Remember Jeff Mallert at ANGC in the mid 2000's when he didn't clear the lip of a bunker and it hit him. 2 strokes and IMO way too penal, if you just had the wording that no penalty so as the player didn't intentionally get hit with the ball. With the loosening of the dumb rules like double hits/pin in the hole when putting etc. this would have been another to get rid of.
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I was looking around, and it looks like they "fixed" one of my pet peeves...not being able to fix scuff or spike marks and damage otherwise on the green.
P.S. Supposedly the original proposal for the drop was 2 inches, but was deemed too close to the ground.
I wish they would've just gone ahead and made everything a PLACE situation...that would solve a number of issues...
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I have done the double hit on a putt a couple times and a chip shot once. Weird as you never think it is possible. I would have thought another rule that is odd and extra penal is if you hit yourself with the ball. Remember Jeff Mallert at ANGC in the mid 2000's when he didn't clear the lip of a bunker and it hit him. 2 strokes and IMO way too penal, if you just had the wording that no penalty so as the player didn't intentionally get hit with the ball. With the loosening of the dumb rules like double hits/pin in the hole when putting etc. this would have been another to get rid of.
They did.
(3) Ball in Motion Accidentally Deflected Your ball in motion accidentally hits you, your equipment, your caddie, someone attending the flagstick for you or a removed or attended flagstick: There is no longer a penalty (such as when your ball bounces off a bunker face and hits you).
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I'm a little confused.....so If I double hit my ball, its one stroke? Or I count them both but its no penalty ON TOP OF THAT....
My suspicion is this is eliminated as the sensitivity of sensing a double hit varies greatly from golfer to golfer.
Not to mention as Peter mentioned the intentional double strike only works well in old Nike commercials.
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I have done the double hit on a putt a couple times and a chip shot once. Weird as you never think it is possible. I would have thought another rule that is odd and extra penal is if you hit yourself with the ball. Remember Jeff Mallert at ANGC in the mid 2000's when he didn't clear the lip of a bunker and it hit him. 2 strokes and IMO way too penal, if you just had the wording that no penalty so as the player didn't intentionally get hit with the ball. With the loosening of the dumb rules like double hits/pin in the hole when putting etc. this would have been another to get rid of.
They did.
(3) Ball in Motion Accidentally Deflected Your ball in motion accidentally hits you, your equipment, your caddie, someone attending the flagstick for you or a removed or attended flagstick: There is no longer a penalty (such as when your ball bounces off a bunker face and hits you).
Good catch... then great minds think alike!
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The reduction in time allowed to look for a lost ball from five to three minutes could make a big difference in professional tournaments. It often seems that a ball is found just before the allotted five minutes are up. Could mean a lot more cart rides back to the tee.
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The stroke and distance penalty for out of bounds always bothered me. My home course has about 10 holes with OB right. Nice to see they changed it.
It's still essentially a stroke and distance penalty (as it's TWO shots, not one). It just doesn't require you to go back to rehit.
I don't understand the attention to shots that are double hit. How often do any of us actually see this? Once every couple of years?
A few rules may change but pace of play on television will remain glacial.
WW
I double-hit a chip shot within the last month. I suspect that the additional one stroke play was eliminated because the double-hit shot probably finished in a much worse position than the shot would have attained without the double hit. Eliminating the penalty stroke also speeds up play because there will be no discussion/huddle over the matter,
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The proposed rules should help to improve pace of play. However, would someone be able to shed some light as to why dropping from knee height is better for the game than shoulder height is? I simply do not understand why changing the height of the drop is necessary when I have never seen any problem with it.
Kevin,
You are taking relief from a lateral water hazard (red). You get two club lengths, no closer to the hole. Occasionally, because the edge of the hazard parallels the "no closer to the hole" line, this leaves a narrow sliver for the dropped ball to hit to be a proper drop. A drop from knee high is more likely to hit the sliver than a drop from shoulder high. I have supervised scenarios when the number of drops was in double figures.
As someone else mentioned, the shorter drop height will cause the ball to hit the ground with lesser velocity, reducing the amount of roll.
Unless I am told otherwise, I would accept a drop from a golfer standing erect with arm in normal hanging position. With arms hanging my fingers reach the top of knee, and I am not a freak of nature (maybe debatable).
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Pete,
How did it hit double figures? I thought it was two drops and then place? Or is that just a PGA Tour rule?
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The proposed rules should help to improve pace of play. However, would someone be able to shed some light as to why dropping from knee height is better for the game than shoulder height is? I simply do not understand why changing the height of the drop is necessary when I have never seen any problem with it.
Kevin,
You are taking relief from a lateral water hazard (red). You get two club lengths, no closer to the hole. Occasionally, because the edge of the hazard parallels the "no closer to the hole" line, this leaves a narrow sliver for the dropped ball to hit to be a proper drop. A drop from knee high is more likely to hit the sliver than a drop from shoulder high. I have supervised scenarios when the number of drops was in double figures.
As someone else mentioned, the shorter drop height will cause the ball to hit the ground with lesser velocity, reducing the amount of roll.
Unless I am told otherwise, I would accept a drop from a golfer standing erect with arm in normal hanging position. With arms hanging my fingers reach the top of knee, and I am not a freak of nature (maybe debatable).
Whatch the USGA videos as they demonstrate it several times.
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Pete,
How did it hit double figures? I thought it was two drops and then place? Or is that just a PGA Tour rule?
Two "legal" drops, then place. In incorrect drop (too low, spun, hitting the person, hitting outide the prescribed area) doesn't count toward the two drop maximum.
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The proposed rules should help to improve pace of play. However, would someone be able to shed some light as to why dropping from knee height is better for the game than shoulder height is? I simply do not understand why changing the height of the drop is necessary when I have never seen any problem with it.
Kevin,
You are taking relief from a lateral water hazard (red). You get two club lengths, no closer to the hole. Occasionally, because the edge of the hazard parallels the "no closer to the hole" line, this leaves a narrow sliver for the dropped ball to hit to be a proper drop. A drop from knee high is more likely to hit the sliver than a drop from shoulder high. I have supervised scenarios when the number of drops was in double figures.
As someone else mentioned, the shorter drop height will cause the ball to hit the ground with lesser velocity, reducing the amount of roll.
Unless I am told otherwise, I would accept a drop from a golfer standing erect with arm in normal hanging position. With arms hanging my fingers reach the top of knee, and I am not a freak of nature (maybe debatable).
Whatch the USGA videos as they demonstrate it several times.
I watched the videos. That still doesn't change the fact that my fingertips barely touch they tippy top of the knee. I did notice in a number of videos the flexing of knees.
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Pete:
You are a total freak of nature just to understand the Rules that well.
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I assumed that the new out of bounds or lost ball rule would mean dropping within x club lengths of the point where the ball went OOB or was lost. In fact, having read the detail, you’ll be able to drop it on the fairway at the nearest point. Is it just me or does that feel like it’s going to significantly reduce the pressure of a tight OOB? I can also imagine there’ll be times when you’ll be disappointed to have found your ball and only have 2 club’s length to drop it. Will undoubtedly speed up play a lot though.
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I have done the double hit on a putt a couple times and a chip shot once. Weird as you never think it is possible. I would have thought another rule that is odd and extra penal is if you hit yourself with the ball. Remember Jeff Mallert at ANGC in the mid 2000's when he didn't clear the lip of a bunker and it hit him. 2 strokes and IMO way too penal, if you just had the wording that no penalty so as the player didn't intentionally get hit with the ball. With the loosening of the dumb rules like double hits/pin in the hole when putting etc. this would have been another to get rid of.
They did.
(3) Ball in Motion Accidentally Deflected Your ball in motion accidentally hits you, your equipment, your caddie, someone attending the flagstick for you or a removed or attended flagstick: There is no longer a penalty (such as when your ball bounces off a bunker face and hits you).
Good catch... then great minds think alike!
Is there any indication as to what is to stop a playing partner helpfully laying down the flagstick in a place behind the hole where it might be accidently struck? We already have a problem eith playing partners leaving their balls in a spot where it may be struck. Opening this tactic up to putting and flagsticks seems unwise on face value.
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The reduction in time allowed to look for a lost ball from five to three minutes could make a big difference in professional tournaments. It often seems that a ball is found just before the allotted five minutes are up. Could mean a lot more cart rides back to the tee.
This rule change to speed up play might slow it down.
I'm not sure that I'm in favor of this one. So many tournament rounds take close to 5 hrs. What is an extra 2 minutes of savings when it comes to the once a round happening when you actually need to look for your ball? I'm just thinking of amateur tournament play, where the spotters don't care, there are no galleries, and you're usually playing a somewhat unfamiliar course. It's fairly easy to lose your ball in the rough on occasion when you know that it is there if you search hard enough.
It's a problem that the pros rarely have to deal with.
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I don't understand the attention to shots that are double hit. How often do any of us actually see this? Once every couple of years?
We have a player who double-hits it every couple of rounds, never mind every couple of years. We nicknamed him "T.C.". :) He'll be very happy now, but the tag sticks.
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http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/an-overview-of-the-rules-modernization-initiative.html (http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/an-overview-of-the-rules-modernization-initiative.html)
This page has the whole set of rules changes under section #2.
Some rules that caught me a little off-guard are
-Elimination of opposite side relief option: You are no longer allowed to take relief from a red penalty area on the opposite side from where the ball last entered the penalty area (unless a Committee adopts a Local Rule allowing it).
-Elimination of need to announce intent to lift ball: When you have good reason to lift your ball to identify it, to see if it is cut or cracked or to see if you are entitled to relief (such as to see if the ball is embedded), you are no longer required first to announce to another player or your marker that you intend to do so or to give that person an opportunity to observe the process.
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I believe one of the proposed rules had been to allow to keep the flagstick in the cup when putting. Was that dropped?
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I believe one of the proposed rules had been to allow to keep the flagstick in the cup when putting. Was that dropped?
Nope. Still in there.
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The Irish Drop is now official.
Interesting they didnt float that for consideration first.
I always thought the Irish drop was only one penalty shot. At least this proposed local rule has you hitting 4 after tossing your ball back into the fairway.
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Is there any indication as to what is to stop a playing partner helpfully laying down the flagstick in a place behind the hole where it might be accidently struck? We already have a problem eith playing partners leaving their balls in a spot where it may be struck. Opening this tactic up to putting and flagsticks seems unwise on face value.
Yeah, that's not accidental. If it's intentional, it's a violation.
I believe one of the proposed rules had been to allow to keep the flagstick in the cup when putting. Was that dropped?
Dumb. Totally stupid to have left that in there. The USGA/R&A appear to have done no research.
Just imagine how much Scott Hoch at Augusta or Doug Sanders at St. Andrews would pay to have putted with the flagstick in. It'll help on testy three- and four-footers, and it'll help on downhill putts that might slide well past the hole, and it will help with putts outside of 20 or 25' where you can't guarantee you're going to stop the ball within about 3' past the hole.
It may actually slow things down. Someone with an 11' uphill putt may take it out, and then his opponent with a 10' downhill putt may put it back in. Then they may take it out or put it back depending on their next putt.
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I don't like putting with the stick in. In the unlikely event my ball goes in, it's hard(er) to get out.
My favorite change? Caddies can no longer stand behind the player to get them lined up.
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My favorite change? Caddies can no longer stand behind the player to get them lined up.
I love that one.
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My favorite change? Caddies can no longer stand behind the player to get them lined up.
I love that one.
Yeah this was so prevalent in the LPGA, I mean have you ever seen the caddie pull off the player from the shot? It was meaningless.
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Deleted old dumb joke.
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Yeah this was so prevalent in the LPGA, I mean have you ever seen the caddie pull off the player from the shot? It was meaningless.
Twice. Once with Paula Creamer, once with some player who hasn't really had a name before or since (I saw this one live at the Jamie Farr tournament). I know it's twice because they both stood out to me as so surprising, so shocking, so unusual.
I watch a decent amount of LPGA Tour golf, too. When Tiger wasn't playing, I watched much more of it than the men. Now it's almost equal. (My 15yo daughter plays golf.)
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So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.
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Jerry,
Here are some more detailed explanations from the USGA site.
http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html (http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html)
P.S. Thats from a year ago darn, looks like its just talking points, but still informative I suppose
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This one appears to explain it.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/usga-and-randa-officials-reveal-final-draft-of-modernized-rules-of-golf-to-debut-in-2019
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So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.
I think you can hit it from the edge of the fairway near where you think it was lost.
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Is there any indication as to what is to stop a playing partner helpfully laying down the flagstick in a place behind the hole where it might be accidently struck? We already have a problem eith playing partners leaving their balls in a spot where it may be struck. Opening this tactic up to putting and flagsticks seems unwise on face value.
Yeah, that's not accidental. If it's intentional, it's a violation.
If we are playing together in a stroke event and you lie down the flag in a place where I may hit it if I miss the hole, I am under no obligation to move the flag stick or ask for it to be moved. I can get a free hit at the putt and replay the shot if it hits the flag stick. The only possible penalty would be against you if it was determined that you placed the flag there as a backstop for me on purpose and I have no idea how you would go about determining that.
It is the stupidest rule ever, takes the onus away from the player to take responsibility for his actions and relies on some magical determination of intent.
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David, This whole movement to appease the lazy participant that cries "unfair", is just a reflection on society's loss of the concept of Onus of responsibility. It smacks of desperate dollar driven influences, that don't respect the one that brung'em.
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So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.
First of all, the primary reason people lose balls, especially in rough, is they do not START looking until they are long PAST where their ball actually is....(usually because they assume it's in the vicinity of other people's drives-- which may have rolled out nicely because they didn't snag in the rough)
so you can almost always assume they will be dropping 20-50 yards ahead of where their ball actually was lost....
Secondly, if I do actually look where my awful drive went....why would I want to drop there with 2 strokes, when I could retee and drive to a much better position=laying the same.
Again, a player generally will have incentive to hit a provisional-which tales some time-and he has equal incentive to look for his original-which tales some time.
and since he can't use the rule IF he plays a provisional-he has a decision to make which certainly calls for a several minute caddie conference
and since when did we need the USGA's permission to INVOKE a local rule?
That's why it's called a local rule....
doddering old fools and pandora's box..
Ironically, those of us who knew the rules, no longer do...(since the DJ rule no one knows exactly what to do if a ball moves on the green and therefore calls an official)
and those who didn't before(you know the ones we're now pandering to)-certainly aren't going to bother learning them-hence the pandering.
at least they did get the caddy lineup thing right.....
love the knee height decision-do these guys have real jobs?
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These changes will only make the fast players play even faster. I wouldn't bet against the slow players being even slower. The only sure thing...Everyone will be more miserable.
Every time a slow player puts his hand on his ball the game slows down. It's quicker to hit a provisional than to argue about where to take a drop.
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So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.
My guess is the USGA only thinks about this from a handicapping perspective. If you lose a ball or hit one o.b., and drop and play four, you are most likely going to make a net double bogey, which is where their scoring stops. They just don't care about how it might affect a match between two higher handicappers; they can't relate.
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No ones handicap is going to go down because of ESC, but the 18 handicap is going to make fewer X's. This is going to leave more poor golfers not being asked to join in gambling games. It may take a while but guys giving strokes are going to get sick of watching guys taking drops were the rarely hit the ball. By a while I mean until they can find someone else to play with. Bye, bye!!!
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To my knowledge I've never performed a double hit nor have I managed to hit myself with my own ball, but now that there's no penalty for these actions I intend to take full advantage of them!!!!
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So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.
Pretty much, but add the idea that there's an "area" and you can even drop anywhere in that area, which goes over to the fairway, too.
(https://cl.ly/10031o260640/RulesModernization_Stroke-And-Distance-(FINAL).jpg)
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I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"
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I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"
Yes, and oddly, they don't define it in the released 2019 Rules. It's noted as a part of the "General Area" in 2.2 "Defined Areas of the Course" and in two other places: in 16.3 about the embedded ball, and in the definition of Advice regarding the "location" of the stated items.
Kind of odd that it's used three times but not defined. I mean, even "the hole" is defined, as is "animal" and other basic words that "everyone understands." It isn't defined in the current rules, either, despite the embedded ball rule using it.
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So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.
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So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.
How do you figure? It's a two-stroke penalty, they'll be hitting four, and a lot of those golfers are probably already just dropping up there and taking their ESC already (or adding only one penalty stroke).
Plus you honestly think that those 18 handicappers are losing 4 to 8 balls per round?
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So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.
Pardon my ignorance, but I do not understand how this works. While I'm not really a fan of the rule, as I think it is far easier to hit a provisional tee ball, how can someone shoot eight shots less than normal, and retain their handicap?
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Currently with ESC an 18 handicap can post a maximum 7 on any hole. Given this rule they will still make at least the same 7 but fewer X's. Besides not hitting a second ball out of bounds they have eliminated all other poorly hit provisional shots. This sadly will also decrease the quickness of having an 18 handicap with his "ball in pocket" after hitting his provisional OB or lost. At any uber difficult course this happens at least three times per round. Thus the 4 to 8 strokes.
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John will forever be the resident troll.
As a 18 capper myself, I can count the times on one hand I lost that many balls in one round, and 3 of em came on one particular difficult course the Idaho Club
P.S. 18 cappers have fewer Xs than you think. Our difficulty in general is not with posting massive scores, its making loads of single bogeys instead of pars that makes up 18 cappers. I may have one X per round....
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Kalen,
I am referring to uber difficult courses like Victoria National. The over/under for any double digit handicap is 6 balls. Most 18's stop counting.
The funny thing about this rule is that every 18 that I play with hits the ball further than me. They are going to be taking drops in the fairway 20 yds in front of my drive. How am I supposed to be giving them strokes and retain my sanity?
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As a 18 capper myself, I can count the times on one hand I lost that many balls in one round, and 3 of em came on one particular difficult course the Idaho Club
P.S. 18 cappers have fewer Xs than you think. Our difficulty in general is not with posting massive scores, its making loads of single bogeys instead of pars that makes up 18 cappers. I may have one X per round....
I'm a 15 at the moment and this is exactly it. I have no distance problem, nor do I make a lot of triples. I just make tons and tons of bogeys and some doubles. Every once in a while I'll make more pars than usual and end up shooting in the mid-high 80s, but then I'll also have rounds where I make more doubles than normal and am in the high 90s.
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Kalen,
I am referring to uber difficult courses like Victoria National. The over/under for any double digit handicap is 6 balls. Most 18's stop counting.
The funny thing about this rule is that every 18 that I play with hits the ball further than me. They are going to be taking drops in the fairway 20 yds in front of my drive. How am I supposed to be giving them strokes and retain my sanity?
John
Fair enough. At Vic National, I will stipulate I would probably lose 5 balls or more. From what I've seen in pics and aerials, it looks to be very demanding for a player like me.
But this is why if you make broad sweeping generalizations based on how high cappers would do on one specific course, you might look a little silly. ;)
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This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?
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We've lost the art of looking for where your ball likely is as opposed to where you'd like it to be.
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John,
I don't know about you, but on a 390 yard par 4, I'd much rather be:
lying 1 facing a 190 yard approach after a short drive,
Over
Lying 3 with a 140 yard approach after trying to nuke one..
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
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We've lost the art of looking for where your ball likely is as opposed to where you'd like it to be.
That is going to cost friendships.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
john,
I'm conservative by nature on the golf course, perhaps to a fault. I rarely take the risky route and in many cases after a poor tee shot, I often play to take double bogey out of the picture, even if it means a hard par.
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A couple of months ago I learned that high handicaps carry 7 irons 170 yds with little effort. Today I find out that they rarely make X's. If I could bottle the dudes I play against I could make a fortune.
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A couple of months ago I learned that high handicaps carry 7 irons 170 yds with little effort. Today I find out that they rarely make X's. If I could bottle the dudes I play against I could make a fortune.
John,
Not sure where you got that first bit of info from. I've only played with one HH who could hit his is 7 iron that far, and certainly not with ease.
P.S. Don't confuse 18s with 36s.... 36s certainly take a lot more Xs and I think some of the better players in this forum equate the two, which is just as absurd as equating a 0 to an 18.
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This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?
Again, the guy's hitting FOUR from his drop. The short straight hitter is hitting two.
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This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?
Again, the guy's hitting FOUR from his drop. The short straight hitter is hitting two.
Erik,
Yes but I will be giving them a stroke on the hole and they will drop the ball in front of my drive that may not even be in the fairway itself. So, If I miss the green in regulation we will both be making approaches laying the same, net that is.
Typically in match play when your opponent hits a ball OB you can coast to victory with bogey even when giving a stroke. This takes that advantage away from the short straight hitter.
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Yes but I will be giving them a stroke on the hole and they will drop the ball in front of my drive that may not even be in the fairway itself. So, If I miss the green in regulation we will both be making approaches laying the same, net that is.
Typically in match play when your opponent hits a ball OB you can coast to victory with bogey even when giving a stroke. This takes that advantage away from the short straight hitter.
I don't know what you're talking about.
They're hitting four. You're hitting two. You hit your approach shot, and they hit their approach shot. Even if they hit the green and you miss, they're putting for bogey, and you're chipping for birdie. Even if you give them a stroke, they're hitting their par putt, and you'll have a par putt after a chip, which you should still get closer than their approach shot.
Under the old rules, or the absence of this Local Rule in 2019+, they could hit their next shot and be hitting four… Yes, they could just OB that shot as well, and pick up, but they could also hit it even further down the fairway since they've got nothing to lose at that point. They're hitting 3 from the tee, or 4 from the pie shape area. Your logic isn't working here: if they're effectively hitting two from the fairway under the current rules (after the stroke you give them), you're not going to win a bunch of holes with a bogey.
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Erik,
Let's use one of the most famous great holes in the country as an example. The 8th at Prairie Dunes.
The most common miss is right into the gunch which results in a lost ball. My opponent hits his drive 270 yds but it drifts right and he suffers a lost ball. Because of the dog leg nature of the hole he takes his penalty and lays out next to the gunch leaving himself 140 yds to the hole. He now lays three hitting four.
I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway 240 yds leaving me 190 yds to the hole. If I am lucky I avoid the short green side right cluster of bunkers, which are death, and have a twenty yard chip to a blind hole. I now lay 2 hitting three.
Because I am giving him a stroke we basically lay the same and I have lost 90% of my advantage. If I do not avoid the bunkers short right I have no advantage at all.
The dogleg nature of the hole exacerbates this issue. It is a fools errand to hug the inside of that dogleg given the penal nature of the gunch. The player is receiving undo reward on his drop that he could have never received under the current rules.
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So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.
How do you figure? It's a two-stroke penalty, they'll be hitting four, and a lot of those golfers are probably already just dropping up there and taking their ESC already (or adding only one penalty stroke).
Plus you honestly think that those 18 handicappers are losing 4 to 8 balls per round?
I know at least one that lost 18 in a round. Right Dick? ;D
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers? I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.
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The most common miss is right into the gunch which results in a lost ball. My opponent hits his drive 270 yds but it drifts right and he suffers a lost ball. Because of the dog leg nature of the hole he takes his penalty and lays out next to the gunch leaving himself 140 yds to the hole. He now lays three hitting four.
I hit my drive down the middle of the fairway 240 yds leaving me 190 yds to the hole. If I am lucky I avoid the short green side right cluster of bunkers, which are death, and have a twenty yard chip to a blind hole. I now lay 2 hitting three.
Because I am giving him a stroke we basically lay the same and I have lost 90% of my advantage.
You don't lay the same. You're 20 yards away from the hole, he's 140.
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I said I lost 90% of my advantage. After he takes his knee high drop our shots a equally as difficult. And if I'm in those bunkers mine is more difficult. Have you played the hole?
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I said I lost 90% of my advantage. After he takes his knee high drop our shots a equally as difficult. And if I'm in those bunkers mine is more difficult. Have you played the hole?
You haven't lost 90% of your advantage. You're 20 yards, he's 140.
And the point was in comparison to the "old" (or for now, current) way: It's no different than this scenario: 1) you both hit the same first shot. 2) instead of dropping, he hits the tee shot to the same place as he dropped, or to a better place.
In that case, everything else is the same. You've not gained or lost anything, and if he hits a better tee shot, you've gained under the "new" rule if he chooses to do that.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers? I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.
Brian,
When did I ever say the first two? My driver distance is medium short and my vector control is spotty. Its by far and away the worst part of my game. My iron play is the next worst part of my game, which due to my lack of distance means more often than not, I'm approaching with 7 thru 3 iron, not 8 thru wedge. And the majority of the time those approach shots are coming out of the rough, which further reduces my chances at a GIR
So when you combine inconsistent driving, with so so iron play, it adds up to very few greens in reg, ergo very few pars, but also lots of single bogeys. But what it does not mean is that my drives are 50+ yards off line very often, and I'm not topping shots left and right or laying sod over the ball. It means i'm missing my intended spots most of the time, but not getting into big trouble very often like OB or Hazards, because I aim away from it.
Over 18 holes, this typically means 2-3 pars, 11-12 bogeys, 2-3 double bogeys, occasional triple, and 1 X...which more or less means shooting 90 thru 95.
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That is not true. He drops his ball at the ultimate garden spot on the inside of the dogleg. A spot impossible to hit in regulation because of the wind and slope of the ground. He also gets the benefit of the knee high drop which will be better than one randomly found on a regulation tee shot.
Look, I still prefer for my opponent to hit a ball OB. It's just not the penalty it use to be which takes away some of the advantage of being a short straight hitter. For example: I currently fully expect to win three holes per round due to forfeit. Under this new rule structure I may be lucky to win one and none at the tee. In a high limit game this is enough to turn a winner into a loser.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers? I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.
Brian,
When did I ever say the first two? My driver distance is medium short and my vector control is spotty. Its by far and away the worst part of my game. My iron play is the next worst part of my game, which due to my lack of distance means more often than not, I'm approaching with 7 thru 3 iron, not 8 thru wedge. And the majority of the time those approach shots are coming out of the rough, which further reduces my chances at a GIR
So when you combine inconsistent driving, with so so iron play, it adds up to very few greens in reg, ergo very few pars, but also lots of single bogeys. But what it does not mean is that my drives are 50+ yards off line very often, and I'm not topping shots left and right or laying sod over the ball. It means i'm missing my intended spots most of the time, but not getting into big trouble very often like OB or Hazards, because I aim away from it.
Over 18 holes, this typically means 2-3 pars, 11-12 bogeys, 2-3 double bogeys, occasional triple, and 1 X...which more or less means shooting 90 thru 95.
Helpful perspective, thanks...and I apologize, as it has been mostly Garland making the claims - some of them just happen to be about you, so you get lumped in. Garland is the one that can execute all of Tiger's 9 shots on demand. ;D
(https://e21f.https.cdn.softlayer.net/80E21F/www.rotaryswing.com/legacy_files/images/article-images/348pic1.jpg)
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That is not true. He drops his ball at the ultimate gardens spot on the inside of the dogleg.
And if he hits it OB or loses it toward the outside edge of the dogleg, he is in a worse spot.
You've found one hole where you lose SOME of your advantage (20 yards vs. 140 is not 90% of your advantage). There are holes where you'll gain more of an advantage. The Local Rule has him hitting four, while you're hitting two.
Don't like the Local Rule? You're the committee of your own little match, if you're just playing for a bet, so don't put the Local Rule into effect during your match. Otherwise, abide by the rules of the actual competition.
You're wrong that you're giving up much, and if the opponent has nothing to lose with the second tee shot, will actually end up benefitting sometimes, too, as their drop will be further back and possibly more off to the side than their second "free" tee shot.
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When Greg Norman lost his ball behind the 12th hole at Augusta would he have been able to drop his ball on the fringe and putt for par under this new rule? Yes I know real golfers will not be under this rule.
Because of pace of play issues no one will be allowed to hit provisionals from the tee. We are all members of the same club and prefer to remain civil.
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He would be putting for bogey. Never mind.
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Let's say this new rule helps the high handicapper one hole out of twenty. That is 5%. A very fair estimation. Doesn't seem like much.
Now lets say you play 50 rounds during the course of the year risking $500 per round. That equals $25,000.
5% of $25,000 equals $1250 for the year. $1250 is the cost for unlimited cart usage provided by the club. So here is my dilemma. Do I pay for a free cart for the year for an 18 handicap in our group or do I find someone who can play straight up to join us instead. It's not a difficult decision.
In the long run who really gets hurt? I'd say the guy who can no longer find a game and is only playing exactly by the rules.
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Perhaps an explanation of "Good Course Management", thru the eyes of an 18-20 capper is in order, because i suspect it differs a a fair bit from a good player. Here are a few examples:
1) First and foremost, my rule of thumb... play for the easy bogey/hard par and put double or worse into a far lower % category...unless its a wide open course with little trouble, then fire away at will.
2) You get on a medium length par 4, but maybe its tight with some trees or water. The average high capper just automatically reaches for the driver and bangs away, whereas i'll reach for the 3w and give up some distance in hopes of finding the fairway.
3) You hit a bad tee shot that goes into the rough with 190 in and a poor lie. The average joe gets the 5w and gives it a go, but that's low %, so i'll take out the 9 iron and get it back in play instead.
4) You play a dogleg, where you can get 20-25 extra yards by challenging the deep bunker on the corner where you have to hit one of your best drives to clear it. Do you take it on or aim away from it?
5) You're on a hole with OB down the entire right side, perhaps even with a 20 yard buffer between the fairway and fence. Do you aim down the middle or go up the left hand side to hedge your bets knowing that its rare you'll hit one that far off line to bring it into play?
6) You stripe one down the middle and only got 140 in, but the pin is tucked just over a bunker on the front. Do you play right at it, or to the middle of the green with 1 extra club?
7) You short side an approach where it'll take an amazing chip to leave it close. Do you go for the low % chip to hit it close at the risk of leaving another short side chip, or go 15 feet past and hope to make the come backer.
8) You play a short par 5 and you've got 210 to the middle with thick trees up one side of the hole. Do you go for the 1 in 10 shot with a good result, or layup for a relatively easy par.
9) You have a 100 yard approach, to a somewhat tucked pin on the side of the green with sand short and rough long. You know you're much better out of rough than sand, so which side do you error on?
10) You miss a fairway and there's a smallish gap between trees to have a line to the green, but its wide open if you chip out 45 degrees to the left of there.
11) You hit a good drive on a par 5, with only 220 in, but there's a centerline bunker right in the way for going in the green. Do you layup or risk the 60 yard bunker shot and fire away?
12) You're playing a shortish par 3 into a stiff 2 club wind with a nasty hazard in front. Do you take the 2 extra or go three extra and make a short miss low %?
ON and on these scenarios go with HH'ers and almost always they go for the "pro/good player" shot....completely ignoring the percentages and bringing double or worse into the equation time and time again. This isn't to say I don't have some abysmal holes where everything goes wrong. But when you look at holes thru the eyes of a high capper, nearly every hole is a fairly easy bogey... if you're willing to play it that way and concede it will be a hard par.
P.S. I've played more rounds than I can count with my Spokane buddy. Hes 30-40 yards longer than me from the tee, hits his irons longer and higher, chips way better that me, better bunker player, but putting wise I have the edge. I beat him most of the time though because he always goes for the "good player" shot and recovery, instead of understanding the basics of percentages as a High Capper....
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I wonder what a Golf Digest rater would think if he showed up to a course and saw posted in the locker room. "Out of respect to our founding members and outstanding architecture we here at club XXX have not instituted the new OB and lost ball drop it where you iike it local rules. Here at club XXX angles matter. BSOBD."
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I believe John is right to note that at certain very penal courses, certain players that have a propensity for high scores on a single hole, caused by missing a certain shot twice OB or into an area where it is likely lost, will probably gain some advantage. But such advantage will really only be in medal play.
I dont see it affects match play that much, and the rule might actually reduce this players handicap somewhat, as it might result in a slighly lower score than otherwise, and therefore eventually compensating some of that additional advantage.
I believe the new rules, plus new world handicap system will benefit me initially, but I am like to eventually lower my handicap (our current handicap system has no cap per hole).
John is right that some 10-12 handicapers can score 12-15 pars in a round, and have a couple of quads and a triple bogey resulting from multiple OBs or lost balls. I can see them putting the new rule in effect on certain holes. But I would argue John is in trouble against these kind of players in match play anyway.
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I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"
Whaaaaaaaaat?
That was one of the fundamentals to me, that you were no more entitled to "fairness" in the fairway than anywhere else.
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Whaaaaaaaaat?
That was one of the fundamentals to me, that you were no more entitled to "fairness" in the fairway than anywhere else.
The only place that rule is currently really applied is for an embedded ball. The R&A doesn't like to allow relief for an embedded ball elsewhere, the USGA finally got their way and the local rule and the standard rule flipped: in 2019 you'll get relief for an embedded ball anywhere in the General Area (so long as it is not embedded in sand).
John, your math still leaves a lot to be desired. You're still only 20 yards out while your opponent is still 140 yards out. And the 5% "advantage" that you made up only applies on holes where you seem to be forgetting that they get a TWO-STROKE penalty.
Were I playing you and getting a stroke as an 18 handicapper on that hole, I'd play three safe shots and leave myself a par putt for a net birdie putt.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers? I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.
In the grudge match, Anthony Gray lost patience with us, and expressed his disgust when we were both way right in a hay field. One of many visits to the hay that day. As I have written many times, a main problem is squaring the club face.
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And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.
btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.
Obviously, you haven't seen Kalen play. ;D Anthony Gray was disgusted by the shots we hit in the GRUDGE MATCH.
If you and Kalen can control the distance and trajectory of your iron shots, are excellent putters, have strong course management skills, don't lose many balls, and seldom take an X (all things I've seen you two claim over the past few weeks), how on earth are you both high handicappers? I'm genuinely interested in what a typical round (shot for shot) looks like for you.
Brian,
When did I ever say the first two? My driver distance is medium short and my vector control is spotty. Its by far and away the worst part of my game. My iron play is the next worst part of my game, which due to my lack of distance means more often than not, I'm approaching with 7 thru 3 iron, not 8 thru wedge. And the majority of the time those approach shots are coming out of the rough, which further reduces my chances at a GIR
So when you combine inconsistent driving, with so so iron play, it adds up to very few greens in reg, ergo very few pars, but also lots of single bogeys. But what it does not mean is that my drives are 50+ yards off line very often, and I'm not topping shots left and right or laying sod over the ball. It means i'm missing my intended spots most of the time, but not getting into big trouble very often like OB or Hazards, because I aim away from it.
Over 18 holes, this typically means 2-3 pars, 11-12 bogeys, 2-3 double bogeys, occasional triple, and 1 X...which more or less means shooting 90 thru 95.
Helpful perspective, thanks...and I apologize, as it has been mostly Garland making the claims - some of them just happen to be about you, so you get lumped in. Garland is the one that can execute all of Tiger's 9 shots on demand. ;D
(https://e21f.https.cdn.softlayer.net/80E21F/www.rotaryswing.com/legacy_files/images/article-images/348pic1.jpg)
Au contraire. I try the high fade, I am as likely to get the low dead pull right as the high fade left.
Don't let Kalen deceive you about not being offline significantly. He depended on off course walkers to find his ball at Chambers Bay.
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I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"
Just looked up the language of the proposed specimen local rule. If defines "fairway" as any grass in the general area cut to fairway height or less.. My reading on this- any golfer should know what a fairway looks like, just like we've always done.
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Just looked up the language of the proposed specimen local rule. If defines "fairway" as any grass in the general area cut to fairway height or less.. My reading on this- any golfer should know what a fairway looks like, just like we've always done.
Yes, we "know" what it is, but you'd think for the sake of completeness they'd define it. Some people will ask, for example, if there's LCP in your own fairway if the fringe around the green counts (this matters on some par threes where there's no "fairway").
So, does the fringe count as a fairway? What about for a drop with this Local Rule?
Anyway, one would think they'd define it when they define so many other things.
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Pretty sure the fringe is cut to "fairway height or less".
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Just looked up the language of the proposed specimen local rule. If defines "fairway" as any grass in the general area cut to fairway height or less.. My reading on this- any golfer should know what a fairway looks like, just like we've always done.
What is a "specimen" local rule? I.e. what does "specimen" mean or refer to?
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I can't believe anyone thought the game needed more interpretations on where to drop. Absolutely anytime you lose a ball on a par three you can drop somewhere puttable no closer to the hole. This will of course extend to the approach to any green. Your beloved gorse be damned. The provisional is effectively dead.
In all seriousness. Will there ever be a need to hit a provisional again? Provisionals replaced by arguments. The best drop artist wins.
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So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.
Nothing better than giving a shot a hole AND giving drops where a ball isn't...
I will say one thing, by allowing the fairway "cone" option, at least a player doesn't have to convince you his ball was lost in area that would've producued a an unobstructed shot from a perfect lie.(but somehow is unfindable)
Now he just has to convice me his half topped skank went 275 yards....
Ironically, it gives me an out from giving in to a request that we make our native(real native as in bushes) areas lateral-which really opens up a kettle of fish when players "negotiate" where the ball crossed the margin of the "hazard"--a very different thing from where the ball is "likely to be lost" (I just love that phrase)
"your ball is lost right here sir"
"You found it?"
"No sir but right here is where it would be if we had found it"
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Kalen,
The funny thing about this rule is that every 18 that I play with hits the ball further than me. They are going to be taking drops in the fairway 20 yds in front of my drive. How am I supposed to be giving them strokes and retain my sanity?
Are you allowed to go over the three minute limit to prove to someone that the area they've "likely lost" their ball, in fact does NOT contain their ball?
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Just looked up the language of the proposed specimen local rule. If defines "fairway" as any grass in the general area cut to fairway height or less.. My reading on this- any golfer should know what a fairway looks like, just like we've always done.
What is a "specimen" local rule? I.e. what does "specimen" mean or refer to?
Lou,
am a bit out of date. The specimen, sample, model local rule is what is in the current rule book in appendix 1. There the USGA/R&A provide their preferred text for most local rules, to encourage conformity of language.
Didn't see an appendix in the rules rolled out this week.
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I don’t think the par 3 comment works. If I read it right you still can’t drop it nearer the hole; so hitting OOB right and dropping on the fringe of the green is unlikely to be an option, except for some very unusual cases. Seems to me it would have made the old Dowie hole at Hoylake a lot less intimidating for example!
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It definitely affects matches where shots are given.
Many a hole is won when BOTH players pump it out of bounds, then the player giving the shot rights the ship and hits a good provisional and the guy getting doesn't.
In this case they both drop further down the fairway, making it a par 3 where the shot is still in play.
It won't affect handicaps because an X is an X...
I laugh every time of think of this....but I can't wait to see the "cone" in action in a member event :)
the book's going to need another volume....
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I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"
Just looked up the language of the proposed specimen local rule. If defines "fairway" as any grass in the general area cut to fairway height or less.. My reading on this- any golfer should know what a fairway looks like, just like we've always done.
My interpretation is that any uniformly cut area of turf is fairway. So that 3" cut bordering the 0.5" cut applies. Uniformity is fair since it applies across the board and you can see it from the tee.
This is a bad, bad slipperly slope. What's next? Standards for height of cut? The Putting Green definition has a similar problem. Based on it, you should be able to mark the ball on the collar, as well. As most are now maintained with the specific purpose of putting as the primary stroke.
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A great example of rule change starting next year was Rory McIlroy's play on the 13th hole and his pull hook into the azaleas left of the green. If that had happened next year if he decided not to look for the ball, the drop would be by the green and the shrubbery and any decision making on how to hit the shot, or the trudge back up to the area of the previous spot would never happen.
Oops, As I woke up I realized that after the drop he would be laying four, and it was the 13th, not the 15th.
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But if It was next year and Rory dropped, he would be laying 4, and likely makes bogey. Way better outcome was finding the ball, hacking out in 3, and making par. I think the two stroke penalty is the major difference maker....
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And here is where architecture will be destroyed under the new rule. The flowers and everything else around the course will be marked out of bounds. Don't forget, when you are OB you are not allowed to hit your ball from where you found it. Invest in white paint boys if you got it because we are going to see OB as the answer to every problem.
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A great example of rule change starting next year was Rory McIlroy's play on the 15th hole and his pull hook into the azaleas left of the green. If that had happened next year if he decided not to look for the ball, the drop would be by the green and the shrubbery and any decision making on how to hit the shot, or the trudge back up to the area of the previous spot would never happen.
That is presuming this area is marked as a penalty area or The Masters Committee would use the proposed local rule.
I don't think either are very likely.
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As Pete said above, he could decide not to look for it. Doesn’t have to be a penalty area.
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As Pete said above, he could decide not to look for it. Doesn’t have to be a penalty area.
Only if that local rule were selected by The Committee. As it stands right now he didn't have to look for it. In fact, he could have played a provisional ball and abandoned it right then and there based on the outcome of the provisional.
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We all know that the Masters will not invoke this idiotic new rule that is designed to get bad golfers around the course, but…
Remember when Phil hit the tree on nine and took the option of going back to his original spot? Under the new rule I think he could have gone out into the fairway and dropped. That would have saved him a shot.
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I modified my recent post, admitting that I slipped a shot. After the drop Rory's ball would be lying four, not three. As he was proceeding under lost ball rule, it would not be necessary to mark the shrubbery as a penalty area.
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John,
I know you like to bag on this one, but the USGA has been very clear from day one! From thier site:
"This Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite amateur level competitions."
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John,
I know you like to bag on this one, but the USGA has been very clear from day one! From thier site:
"This Local Rule is not intended for higher levels of play, such as professional or elite amateur level competitions."
Now we have to decide who is an elite amateur ;D A lot of 4 cappers act like they are elite ::)
I spose we could take the cut off point for applying to the Opens. The US is 1.4 I think and The Open is scratch...call it .7.
Ciao
Ciao
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You can now order online at USGA Publications
The "Players Edition" is pocket-sized, but does not have all the rules. Free to USGA members
The Rules of Golf is about 5x7x1, cost $5 -
The "Official Guide" replaces the Decisions book $15.95
Expect $15+ for shipping.
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The "Official Guide" replaces the Decisions book $15.95
It may be awhile for those to ship, though. My pre-order from… September still hasn't shipped (though I got a copy for my USGA/PGA seminar in March a few weeks ago).
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They are supposed to be available in November. I went to a one-day workshop last weekend and both teachers had one (1 scored 100 on the test for the 5th straight year. Signed up for USGA Publications that day, checked to see if I could order each day, and today was the first day I could purchase anything.
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The "Official Guide" replaces the Decisions book $15.95
It may be awhile for those to ship, though. My pre-order from… September still hasn't shipped (though I got a copy for my USGA/PGA seminar in March a few weeks ago).
Got a notice that shipment was today.
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Got a notice that shipment was today.
Enjoy. Mine shipped on the 26th but never arrived, so I wrote and they're sending a replacement. I have my Official Guide for my rules seminar in March, though, already.