Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Peter Flory on March 01, 2018, 08:21:57 PM

Title: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 01, 2018, 08:21:57 PM

Well, after a lot of information gathering, I've finally started the Lido digital build.  So far, I've just traced out the aerial to scale.  Bunkers are placeholders until I do each one individually.  The roads are placeholders, but will expand them to their proper widths.  Need to dig out Reynold's Channel, etc.  Also, the 8th hole is a placeholder because the aerial that I used had the modified version.  I want to do the original biarritz on the edge of the beach later. 

This will take a while, but the end result will be that it will be available for play on Protee simulators (and gaming PCs, Xbox, PS4 through The Golf Club software). 

I'm hoping to tap the collective knowledge here to resolve areas of the course where the information is lacking.  I can make out a lot of the contours and will supplement that with information from written accounts and other CBM holes that he compares them to.  The hardest part of this will be to get the contours of the greens right on holes without good photos. 

Progress so far- looking toward the Atlantic
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ykdth0.jpg)


Here are a couple examples of the type of detail that will be in the final version (this is taken from a fictional course that I did):
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2djbdkm.jpg)


(http://i64.tinypic.com/2iiwsas.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Nigel Islam on March 01, 2018, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah that is super cool. I’m 46, but I’d buy an Xbox game for the chance to virtually play The Lido. Absolutely.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Brian Finn on March 01, 2018, 09:38:34 PM
This looks incredible. I don't think i can offer much help, but I'll certainly be following closely. I'm going to have to look into getting this game. Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 02, 2018, 01:21:24 AM
I don't know anything about Lido, is it software program that allows building of landscape architecture or is it golf specific?  Also is this what golf course designers are using today?  Looks very cool and would help with visualizing a project if in a bid situation for differentiation. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on March 02, 2018, 03:03:06 AM
I've been using the Perfect Parallel software to create courses for the Jack Nicklaus Perfect Golf game - this is the same software used to design the winning contest hole at Sand Valley, as well as for some flyover graphics used on some TV broadcasts. I've also seen guys on YouTube playing some of these in SkyTrak simulators, including a few of mine.
I'm not familiar with TGC1 or TGC2 design software; I'm curious to see if the same sources for elevation can be used - most of my re-creations are from LIDAR data.

One thing I have not tried doing yet is trying to recreate something that no longer exists, but I suppose it would be a fun way to keep something alive. I know there's a guy doing a bunch of recreations of NLE's for Links 2003.

I have versions of Pebble Beach, Spyglass Hill, Royal Melbourne, Plainfield CC, Cherry Hills and Blackwolf Run River. I'm just finishing up Kingston Heath this weekend, and then I'm gonna work on Prairie Dunes. Here's what Pebble looks like:


(https://i.imgur.com/g3tgTuj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4912TJZ.jpg)

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 02, 2018, 07:04:03 AM
Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:


1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?


2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?


3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Thomas Dai on March 02, 2018, 07:44:27 AM
The graphics above look terrific.
Is the intent that they be available on an indoor simulator system?
atb
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Drew Groeger on March 02, 2018, 10:54:37 AM
Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:

1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?
I do. It’s generally fun although the results can be mixed: sidehill lies from rough are difficult to simulate and short game shots sometimes end up in places you wouldn’t expect.

Quote
2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?
I can’t speak to this as I don’t use either of the packages mentioned above, I use other simulation software.

Quote
3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)
No. For myself and others I know it’s the love of real golf that brings them to a simulator.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 02, 2018, 11:24:40 AM
I don't know anything about Lido..

Jeff, Lido was a famous, short-lived golf course Charles B. MacDonald (kind of the father of US golf architecture) designed and built, I think during WWI (?).  Many back then called it the best course in the country, or at least one of the top few. 

CBM designed Lido like the National Golf Links (NGLA) and his other layouts, i.e. filled with templates of the best holes in GBI and Europe.  He built Lido up out of scratch from some low lying semi-links-type land just outside NYC on the ocean or at least the water.  Everything about Lido was manufactured: the dunes, the contours, the rolls and folds.  I think it had no trees, was tough as nails, cost a fortune to build, and at first was supported by some of the wealthiest men in the country. 

Things started falling apart, I believe in the 1920s, and the course became NLE by the early 1940s or so.  It's achieved kind of a mystical reputation, as one of CBM's finest courses: several have talked about recreating it in various spots, and that's why many of us are more than a little interested to see what Peter comes up with. 

 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 02, 2018, 11:57:05 AM
Thanks Jim.  Very interesting history, fascinating. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 02, 2018, 12:18:11 PM
Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/EDAE1B7D-245F-469F-B00F-57FF3C7B2A63_zpshrwsod2r.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Phil Carlucci on March 02, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931

You can see that LIDO sign pretty clearly in some of the old aerial photos.  I have a few but don't know how to post them directly.  You can see and enlarge the photo in the linked Lido article below.  The sign was actually located well off the course to the east, on the grounds where the current course sits.

http://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2017/04/street-names-the-ghosts-of-long-island-golfs-past-part-2.html
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Brian Hilko on March 02, 2018, 01:40:37 PM
Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:


1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?


If you have a gc2 launch monitor it is very accurate. Screen golf is different though. I swing much harder in the sim than in real life. I find myself hitting a club less or more into most holes because I play so aggressive. Short game will always be an issue on sim. The depth perception does not translate so you have to learn to play yardages and one dimensional with always playing higher lofted shots. The sim is great for those who can not get out to the course. You can play NGLA or Augusta at 11 pm when the family has gone to bed. I use perfect golf. You are able to transfer real terrain into the game so the course recreations are pretty amazing. I am currently working on a restoration of Spring Valley with the design software.


2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?


As stated above it is not perfect but most the course recreations have been spot on. The course selection list is a gcaers dream. It will never replace the real thing but it is a lot of fun when played on a good launch monitor that is accurate. Plus the courses always play firm and fast.


3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)


Winter and nighttime play are the biggest drivers of sim golf in my area. The players that love sim golf understand they are playing a video game and not real golf. The short game can be hard to get over if you are a feel player. Once you get comfortable with sim golf it becomes addictive because you can shoot 5 or 6 strokes lower than your outside handicap. Hitting off a flat mat with perfect alignment really makes the game easier. For me the chance to play the great courses we talk about is the biggest selling point. National, Shinny, sebonack, ANGC, fishers island, cypress, Somerset hills, shoreacres, ballyneal, all the Bandon courses, and many more are on there. The selection is amazing.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 02, 2018, 03:28:00 PM
Phil:


Thanks for the link.  I had never noticed the Lido sign in the aerial before and now that I see it, it's hard to miss.  I guess the sign was much bigger than I realized.


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on March 02, 2018, 04:43:13 PM
Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:

1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?

2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?

3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)

I've actually never played a round of simulator golf before. I've done it a few times when getting fitted for clubs.... I guess in the back of my mind, I wonder if I'm really getting accurate feedback. I'm also not particularly fond of hitting off Astroturf.

2. I play the game on my PC, and some courses I've done, with my PC, are being used in simulator units, so I would assume so.

3. I'd say almost everyone I know also plays real golf. I certainly do, and much prefer it. I'd say the reason I don't play more than I do is time and money; I have two kids under age 10 and I don't have much in the way of disposable income. When I do play it is usually muni or bust. I do encounter people in the communities for these games that only play computer or simulator golf, though, which I think is peculiar. But what is interesting is a lot of them tend to be older people.... when you think of video games you obviously think of it as a younger person's medium, but I find a lot of the people I encounter in online golf communities are 15, 20, 25 years older than me.... and I'm in my early 40s!

I think more than anything, designing courses on my computer is a compensatory outlet for my personal desire as a teenager to become a golf architect and my failure at following through on that desire.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 02, 2018, 05:25:32 PM
I play WGT - World Golf Tour - from time to time. They have Merion, Bethpage Black, Pebble, Congressional, etc.


The cool thing about it is, they use hundreds of pictures they took at each course so they can show you the next shot from almost anywhere you end up.  So I guess its a PC version of the Simulator game...


And its free to boot, with the beginner clubs and balls of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: James Brown on March 02, 2018, 06:45:39 PM
Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 02, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
The only time I've ever played simulator golf had to be one of the earliest versions of them, back in the mid-1970's when I was a kid.  We were in Missouri in the middle of summer, hot and humid as heck, and they had a simulator with Pebble Beach on it.  Having played the real thing once, it seemed like a very weak substitute for Pebble ... especially with a bunch of flat putts!!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 02, 2018, 07:05:48 PM
RTJ course is on different land than the original.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Brian Finn on March 02, 2018, 08:02:55 PM
Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?
The land on which the current Lido GC sits is right next to where The Lido once was. The location of the original course is now covered by grounds for three schools and some neighborhood on the north side of Lido Blvd, and a neighborhood (as well as parking lot for a public beach) on the south side of the road.  If you find the hotel in the bottom left of where the course once was, you will see a few golf-themed roads (redan, bunker, fairway) just above it.  The current course has a couple of holes that attempt to reproduce originals, including the channel hole. It does not reach the ocean, as the original did - the entire course is north from the road to Reynolds Channel. 



Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 02, 2018, 08:15:35 PM
Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?


James:


Probably everything you'd want to know about Lido, and more:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html


Sven
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: James Brown on March 02, 2018, 08:48:13 PM
Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?


James:


Probably everything you'd want to know about Lido, and more:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html)


Sven


Thank you!  I remember reading about Lido for the first time in Lost Links and seeking it out when I did an internship on Long Island 20 years ago.  Had no idea the lagoon hole was a replica.  Thought it was just in dispepair and the last relic of the original. 


Never saw the land comparison until now.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on March 02, 2018, 09:48:37 PM

Well, after a lot of information gathering, I've finally started the Lido digital build.  So far, I've just traced out the aerial to scale.  Bunkers are placeholders until I do each one individually.  The roads are placeholders, but will expand them to their proper widths.  Need to dig out Reynold's Channel, etc.  Also, the 8th hole is a placeholder because the aerial that I used had the modified version.  I want to do the original biarritz on the edge of the beach later. 


Here are a couple examples of the type of detail that will be in the final version (this is taken from a fictional course that I did):
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2djbdkm.jpg)



Great stuff.  Wouldn't this hole look better without the trees?


Is 3D coming soon?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Cal Seifert on March 03, 2018, 06:23:38 PM

Anyone interested in playing virtual golf on real courses should look into getting Links 2003 on their computer.  The graphics are a bit outdated but the game runs smooth and the website LinksCorner is loaded with real courses with free downloads.  I have played Shinnecock, Merion, PB, PV, Prairie Dunes, Oakmont, Bayonne, Banff, Troon, TOC, Dornoch, ETC.
(http://s26.postimg.org/f7oyemp6x/From_Tee.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jack Carney on March 03, 2018, 06:58:34 PM
Jeff - In addition to Jim's description of the Lido is the connection of CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Dr Alister Mackenzie. My understanding is that Mackenzie had been designing courses in the UK including Alwoodley, Darlington and Moortown and had worked some with HS Colt. In 1914 Mackenzie won a "design a hole contest" in Country Life magazine (Bernard Darwin). The contest was using the land where the 18th hole at the Lido was to be built and the prize was to have the hole considered for creation of what was going to be one of the best courses in the world at that time. I believe that while the design was changed a bit the hole was indeed created as the 18th at The Lido. This is a significant historical link between these four great classic period architects. Mackenzie went on to partner with Colt and Alison for a few years before going out on his own and doing much more work in the USA. The rest of course is history.

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 03, 2018, 11:25:33 PM
Jeff - In addition to Jim's description of the Lido is the connection of CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Dr Alister Mackenzie. My understanding is that Mackenzie had been designing courses in the UK including Alwoodley, Darlington and Moortown and had worked some with HS Colt. In 1914 Mackenzie won a "design a hole contest" in Country Life magazine (Bernard Darwin). The contest was using the land where the 18th hole at the Lido was to be built and the prize was to have the hole considered for creation of what was going to be one of the best courses in the world at that time. I believe that while the design was changed a bit the hole was indeed created as the 18th at The Lido. This is a significant historical link between these four great classic period architects. Mackenzie went on to partner with Colt and Alison for a few years before going out on his own and doing much more work in the USA. The rest of course is history.

Wonderful history Jack, thank you so much.  Also seems like many things during the War, this course couldn't be saved as it was used for the military.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Phil Carlucci on March 04, 2018, 06:57:56 AM
Wonderful history Jack, thank you so much.  Also seems like many things during the War, this course couldn't be saved as it was used for the military.

According to newspaper accounts into the early/mid 1950s, after the war, the property was turned over to the State Housing Authority and the barracks were used as housing for veterans and their families.  The Lido owners were able to buy back part of the course site, but there were lawsuits involved with the vet housing portion.  In addition, a chunk of it was given to the Long Beach School District by the government.  Any interest in reacquiring the site to rebuild the golf course was now tied up in governmental red tape.  By the mid 50s the vet housing was condemned and destroyed, though by then the Lido owners had already moved on with the new course next door.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 05, 2018, 11:14:13 AM
Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/EDAE1B7D-245F-469F-B00F-57FF3C7B2A63_zpshrwsod2r.jpg)


Bret, thanks for that pic.  Every image like this will help me to make it more accurate.  This one gives me perspective on the depth of the trap and the way that the grass face looked.  I hadn't ever noticed the LIDO sign in any other pics or aerials.  I think that I can replicate that with floating objects. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: JBovay on March 06, 2018, 06:43:53 AM
I've been using the Perfect Parallel software to create courses for the Jack Nicklaus Perfect Golf game - this is the same software used to design the winning contest hole at Sand Valley, as well as for some flyover graphics used on some TV broadcasts.


Anyone interested in playing virtual golf on real courses should look into getting Links 2003 on their computer.  The graphics are a bit outdated but the game runs smooth and the website LinksCorner is loaded with real courses with free downloads.  I have played Shinnecock, Merion, PB, PV, Prairie Dunes, Oakmont, Bayonne, Banff, Troon, TOC, Dornoch, ETC.


I'm fascinated to learn that you guys design these courses and play these games as hobbies. When I was very young, I spent a lot of time playing Links 386. I stopped playing computer golf after convincing my parents to drop me off at the course every day. I did buy a newer edition of Links around 2001 because I wanted to play around with designing courses, but couldn't figure out how to build bunkers and gave it up.


Moving away from the original topic of the thread: I've been wondering why NBC and CBS don't spend a little bit more on GCA-related graphics to accentuate the broadcast, since these software tools have been around for 20+ years and they're in wide use by the companies that broadcast events from other parts of the world. Granted, NBC and CBS are getting a little bit better at including them... but did anyone catch the laughable hole diagrams they used on Sunday in Mexico City?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 07, 2018, 04:13:35 AM
Have made a little more progress.  The setup phase is pretty slow and it doesn't get fun until I advance to the shaping and planting. 


Here is the basic 2-D layout that is almost done.  Just need to tweak a few trap shapes and add the original 8th hole:
(http://i66.tinypic.com/23hwyde.jpg)


This at least lets me explore the course from ground level.  Here is the view from the 4th tee box (famous lagoon hole) looking down the view of the safe fairway.  The shortcut is off to the right over more of the water:
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2lmqi4w.jpg)


View crossing the first bridge (note that I haven't shaped the banks of the lagoon yet, so they are blocky looking):
(http://i66.tinypic.com/n6ub9c.jpg)


Couldn't resist taking a very preliminary play through, even though it is dead flat:
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2nq4bib.jpg)


(http://i66.tinypic.com/o7n23d.jpg)


Also, I did a quick example green, where I threw in some mounding and sea grass to get a rough example of how the course will look later on:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/vcus8y.jpg)


It's starting to feel like a real place.  I thought that it would feel cramped since it's only on 120 acres, but each hole feels very roomy so far when you're on the ground. 

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: JC Jones on March 09, 2018, 09:34:18 AM

It's starting to feel like a real place.  I thought that it would feel cramped since it's only on 120 acres, but each hole feels very roomy so far when you're on the ground.


smh
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 09, 2018, 11:42:51 AM
One fortunate thing is that the best overhead aerial, the best angled aerial, and the plastacine model all have different sun directions and so that shadows are cast in different directions.  That makes it somewhat possible to decipher the undulations. 


The angled aerials are proving to be incredibly valuable. 

Here is an example.  This is a zoomed in look at the first hole.  The tee box is at the bottom of the screen where I put 2 blue dots (originally, there was no building to the right of it).  The green is at the top where I put one blue dot.  The sun angle is from the top of the photo to the bottom.  You can see the incredible undulations just across the road.  Then, you can see a ridge/ step that crosses the fairway at the first FW bunker on the right side.  Then there is another step up to get over the 2 angled cross bunkers that are short of the green.  To the left, there is a spine in the fairway that falls off to the left and it looks like it would have left a player with a more difficult angle and a fully blind shot.  Hard to believe that he built this from scratch, but you can tell he was thinking about giving it the Old Course dynamic.  Lots of room to bail out left, but you'll have to pay a price for that on the approach. 

What looked like a gentle handshake hole from the top view aerial suddenly looks like a pretty intimidating opener from this angle... especially with hickories.  Add on top of that there is OB right and it was usually windy. 

(http://i67.tinypic.com/262r0au.jpg)


One of the first decisions that I need to make is on the green.  The plastacine model shows a giant 18,000sf green with some really pronounced undulations on the front half (looks like 4 parallel pockets separated by vertical ridges).  By the time the aerials were taken, it appears that the front half of the green had turned to fairway and the green was reduced to about 8,000sf.  A bunker was also added.  Even though there is less information, I'm going to try to go with the original version of the course whenever possible.  CBM wrote that the first hole could be made easier or more difficult depending on the pin placement, so I think that I see what he meant. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on March 09, 2018, 06:38:11 PM
I haven't seen the graphics from last week's event, but I'm pretty sure the graphics being used at Innisbrook today is the same software I'm using.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 10, 2018, 01:39:20 AM
Just spent some time tonight working on the sculpting on the first hole and trying to incorporate all of the ripples from the pics and the plastacine model.  I used the original bunkering and the original green size and shape. 

It won't have the Lido feel until I make all the wild areas sandy and add the sea grass, but thought I'd share what one night's worth of progress looks like. 

Elevated view showing the undulations up the fairway.  You want to cheat that right bunker to get a nice view on the approach. Both of the right hand fairway bunkers were removed by the time the aerials were taken.  The entire course got softened up in numerous ways, so my guess is that the bunkers shown here captured many shots.  Most golfers sliced, even back then. 
(http://i65.tinypic.com/k13qfs.jpg)


View of an approach after a safe drive.  In almost all accounts of the course, the undulations in the fairways are mentioned.  I'm trying to scale them appropriately to give it the boldness that was often mentioned in accounts of it. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/vimys0.jpg)


The green is still a major work in progress, so no pics.  I'll slow down on the posting when I really get to work on the course, but I'm excited to flesh out the first hole.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on March 10, 2018, 05:10:12 AM
Really cool Peter.  Out of curiosity how many hours did it take you to shape the first hole, without the green?  You must be an expert at the software, but what is the name of the software?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 10, 2018, 04:48:46 PM
Really cool Peter.  Out of curiosity how many hours did it take you to shape the first hole, without the green?  You must be an expert at the software, but what is the name of the software?


It probably took about 2 hours to do the basic sculpting.  But then a few more to do all the tweaking to get it right (diminishing returns).  I'll PM you some details on the software and some other alternatives. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on March 10, 2018, 07:07:28 PM
That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.  Bravo!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 11, 2018, 10:25:07 PM
Here is my first question to tap the collective knowledge and deduction abilities of this forum.

Does anybody have any idea on what hole this photo is showing? 
(http://i65.tinypic.com/10yj968.jpg)

The caption doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  "Coming home.  at the end of eighteen brisk holes, one looks forward to the cool and invigorating plunge in the breakers of the blue Atlantic". 

In the photo, there is a group that appears to be a light gallery that may have been following a match and are now off to somewhere (guessing the resort).  The hole isn't the 18th, unless I'm completely disoriented.  You can't see the towers.  It looks like there is one more hole in the distance with at least one player either on a tee or hitting an approach.  Maybe the match finished early and they are bee lining back to the beach?  Or maybe the match went to extra holes and concluded and they are making a long walk back? 

It seems fairly easy to eliminate holes from contention.  Based on what I can tell, it definitely isn't: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, or 18. 

That leaves 2, 9, and 17 as candidates.  If it is 2, then the player in the distance is on 3 tee (Eden).  If it is 9, then the player in the distance doesn't make much sense (because the #1 and #10 tees were left of the green) and the area to the right of the fairway seems built up way too much- unless it was later removed to put the driveway through.  If it is 17, then I have no idea why the crowd of people would be walking further back onto the course. 

Let me know if you have any theories.  I'm very curious to identify it because it gives such good information on the contouring.  I didn't realize that the mounds off the fairway would be this big and broad as the one in the far right hand side of the photo.  It's such a soft hill, that it wouldn't make a dramatic shadow in the aerials. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 12, 2018, 10:31:24 AM
Peter,


I don't know what hole this is, but if I had to guess I would say it's a picture of spectators following the action down the 17th fairway.  The large hill on the right is most likely the Alps hill you needed to hit over on 10.  The man who looks like he may be teeing off would be on the 11th tee. To the right of the gentleman on the tee looks like it could be the mounding for the 10th green.  The large bunker in the fairway next to the gentleman on the tee is most likely the cross bunker running through the 17th fairway.  I feel like you can see water in the distance of the photo surrounded by more land, making me think I'm looking towards the channel hole in the distance.  This is all just a guess on my part.


It's important to note that the 18th hole did not really end at the Club House or the Hotel.  So anyone finishing 18 would have to walk across the 7th hole to get to the hotel or down the ninth hole to get back to the club house, but I don't think this is a picture of either the 7th or the 9th.


Hope this helps


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on March 12, 2018, 10:42:07 AM
That is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.  Bravo!


Peter, I’ve been on GCA from almost the beginning and I know Jeff has been as well. This is one of the best threads in years so please continue the great work.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 12, 2018, 12:50:04 PM
Peter,


I don't know what hole this is, but if I had to guess I would say it's a picture of spectators following the action down the 17th fairway.  The large hill on the right is most likely the Alps hill you needed to hit over on 10.  The man who looks like he may be teeing off would be on the 11th tee. To the right of the gentleman on the tee looks like it could be the mounding for the 10th green.  The large bunker in the fairway next to the gentleman on the tee is most likely the cross bunker running through the 17th fairway.  I feel like you can see water in the distance of the photo surrounded by more land, making me think I'm looking towards the channel hole in the distance.  This is all just a guess on my part.

It's important to note that the 18th hole did not really end at the Club House or the Hotel.  So anyone finishing 18 would have to walk across the 7th hole to get to the hotel or down the ninth hole to get back to the club house, but I don't think this is a picture of either the 7th or the 9th.


Hope this helps


Bret


Bret- I think you've done it!  You thought of something that I wouldn't have.  The green on the left side of the pic is a different hole than the one that they are walking on.  And I am very relieved to know that the big mound is the alps... because now I know how big it was, plus I know that most of the contouring wasn't on that scale.


Here is a screen snap that I took on google earth with the aerial overlayed upon it from the angle that the pic must have been taken from to match your theory.  I did some really crude sketching to show the golfer on the tee in the background (which is #2 tee), plus a couple gallery members walking to the right down 17 fairway, plus an arc to show where the mound would be for the alps.  After analyzing this, I'm almost sure that you are right and you just increased the accuracy of what I'm doing on a very important hole.  One of the the narratives called the Alps hole at Lido a very pale imitation of the original and chalked it up to the costs that it would have required to make the alps bigger, so I would have underestimated the size if this mystery wasn't solved.


The article with the photo was a total fluff piece where they were clearly trying to sell the benefits of the resort, so it shouldn't be surprising that they butchered the caption.  One interesting thing about it was how they were clearly trying to deal with the reputation of the course as being difficult.  That seemed to be something they had to mitigate while drumming up demand. 


(http://i64.tinypic.com/2ishb4h.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 12, 2018, 01:54:08 PM
One other thing about your theory- the caption actually does make a little sense if that is the final stretch of 17.

"Coming home.  At the end of eighteen brisk holes, one looks forward to the cool and invigorating plunge in the breakers of the blue Atlantic". 

I notice that in a lot of the old accounts, they seem way more focused on big picture navigation than we would today.  Maybe it's because of the out and back of St Andrews or the fact that they had to walk everything.  But they seemed to insert a lot of additional information about whether they were going away from the clubhouse or coming back toward it. 

So, at this point of the course, 17 and 18 were on a straight line home.  If you're on 17, you could say that you were "coming home".  Then the next sentence is just trying to sell the benefits of swimming in 50 degree water.  After reading "The Man Who Sold America" I'm wise to their slick sales pitches back then.   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
Here is my rough draft of the 8th hole.  I traced out the outlines from the plastacine map.  Plays 235 uphill.  Camera depth of field setting that I used makes it look shorter and wider, but allows you to see more detail.  This is a tough hole to sculpt and I need to refine it more.  Also, need to rough up the long grass on the line to the green where everyone walks- should just be a wide sandy trail through. 


(http://i66.tinypic.com/semvj8.jpg)


Here is a photo of the hole, but from a much shorter tee.  The original might have been washed away already, or they just weren't playing the tips. 


(http://i67.tinypic.com/qxrvv6.jpg)



Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 13, 2018, 08:52:59 AM
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Nuzzo on March 13, 2018, 09:47:33 AM
Very, very cool!
Thank you for sharing
Mike
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tim Liddy on March 13, 2018, 10:34:28 AM
Agree. Hook up the GPS and let's build it!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 13, 2018, 11:10:42 AM
Peter:


I'm curious where you've gotten the plasticine models for the course in a decent enough resolution to be of use.  Your first hole looks quite realistic, though I've never seen a photo from that fairway to know if it's accurate.


The one hole I do know regarding contour is the famous 4th.  That island fairway on the right was built up 8 or 10 feet, with steep banks to sandy wastes and deep rough all around it, so it was much more perilous to go for it than most of the "alternate route" holes you see today ... if you missed the island, your next shot [presuming you found the ball] was a wedge back to the island fairway, leaving yourself 200 yards over water to the green.


I'm not sure how much the green was built up, but I'd guess it was similar so you could see the flag from the tee.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 12:17:46 PM
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz.

You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 

The challenge on this one is that it is difficult to figure out exactly how steep the dip was.  There are some pretty good pics of this hole, but it's still hard to see.  I'm going to keep working on it.  I like this as a placeholder, but will get more attention for sure. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 12:45:24 PM
Peter:
I'm curious where you've gotten the plasticine models for the course in a decent enough resolution to be of use.  Your first hole looks quite realistic, though I've never seen a photo from that fairway to know if it's accurate.

The one hole I do know regarding contour is the famous 4th.  That island fairway on the right was built up 8 or 10 feet, with steep banks to sandy wastes and deep rough all around it, so it was much more perilous to go for it than most of the "alternate route" holes you see today ... if you missed the island, your next shot [presuming you found the ball] was a wedge back to the island fairway, leaving yourself 200 yards over water to the green.

I'm not sure how much the green was built up, but I'd guess it was similar so you could see the flag from the tee.

The images that I have of the plastacine models are good enough to see all of the contours.  And based on all of the comparing that I did to various photos and aerials, each contour on those models did correspond to what was built.  When I first saw them, I figured that they would be estimations and not correspond so precisely. 

Sean Tully sent me some great information and part of that was the Vanity Fair article, which had even more high resolution photos of the plastacine models for #4, #5, and #18.  I have no excuse on those holes and should be able to nail them.  That same article also had a great diagram of the entire course with hand drawn topographical lines for major contours like the alps and those greensites. 

You are correct on the greensite on 4 being raised.  It and the green on #12 were both significantly raised and are at the same level at the top of a mount.  Based on written account, I believe that a player could see the flagstick from the tee on #4.  There was also a water tower in the distance that was on the same line I believe. 

The problem with the 4th hole if the course would have survived is that the dynamic would have changed for the worse.  Going down the right hand route now wouldn't even be a driver for a great player because you'd run out of fairway.  It would probably be 3-wood + mid iron.  And there was zero room to move back the tee since there was the Channel and the corner of the property.  But back in the day, it was perfect.  It was a huge gamble going right and a payoff that was proportionate.  Would have made the ultimate match play hole if it fell later in the round.  Imagine if it were the 16th and all players losing their matches were tempted to break their strategy and gamble. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: SB on March 13, 2018, 02:05:03 PM
This is just plain awesome.  Amazing that you can get enough data to even guess at the contours.  Applaud all of your hard work.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 02:25:28 PM
For amusement purposes only.  Here is my virtual self time traveling to test out the hole (I left the ball trail on so that you can see where the shot was going).  Was lucky to just walk straight onto the 8th hole.  Place was a ghost town. 


(http://i64.tinypic.com/2vja1xx.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 13, 2018, 03:55:52 PM
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz.

You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 


Peter, how do you know the dip was before the putting surface?  I suspect that may not be the case.

Also, I'm not sure what chasm you're talking about, because the original hole in France did not have a chasm.  The Biarritz course did, for a while, but that was not the hole CBM based this template on. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 04:07:51 PM
Peter, I'm pretty sure #8 was the Biarritz.

You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 


Peter, how do you know the dip was before the putting surface?  I suspect that may not be the case.

Also, I'm not sure what chasm you're talking about, because the original hole in France did not have a chasm.  The Biarritz course did, for a while, but that was not the hole CBM based this template on.


here is a pic of the green (just imagine the griping of tour players with that sort of turf now):
(http://i64.tinypic.com/29bycki.jpg)


The plastacine seems to show it before the green and I believe that the narrative accounts described it that way as well.  I'll try to find that language and post it tonight along with a zoomed view of the plastacine. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Alex Miller on March 13, 2018, 05:27:47 PM
Hey Peter,


This is awesome and I'm loving this thread / the work so far. Just wanted to say that in the pic of the 8th the green seems to have a more substantial right to left tilt (or flare in the back right) than your rendering shows so far. You can see how the turf blocks some of the first story of the house behind, with more of the building being blocked on the right side than left. You may already have this captured, but it looks like it could be even more than in the first rendering.


Thanks!
Alex
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 13, 2018, 06:14:00 PM
This is just plain awesome.  Amazing that you can get enough data to even guess at the contours.  Applaud all of your hard work.

+1
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 13, 2018, 06:50:50 PM
Peter, I think you're right about the swale on #8.  Besides the photo you posted, I just saw this passage from a November 26, 1916 article about Lido:

"The (8th) hole is a perfect one-shotter and with a deep depression in front of the green a high tee-ball with stop must be used here to get best results." 

Maybe the writer was wrong, but he says the best shot there was not a low running shot, but a 230 yard carry that landed softly on the green.  Did such a shot exist in 1916? 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
Hey Peter,


This is awesome and I'm loving this thread / the work so far. Just wanted to say that in the pic of the 8th the green seems to have a more substantial right to left tilt (or flare in the back right) than your rendering shows so far. You can see how the turf blocks some of the first story of the house behind, with more of the building being blocked on the right side than left. You may already have this captured, but it looks like it could be even more than in the first rendering.


Thanks!
Alex


I agree with you.  There are other differences that I can see as well on the left side of the green.  It's fairly easy to get the basic gist of a hole, but takes a lot of time to polish it.  The image that I just posted with the mower on the green appears to be much less dramatic than it looks from the tee.  So it is that sort of contradictory info that I have to reconcile as well. 


Also, the plastacine verion has that portion of fairway that bulges out to the right.  That appears to have never been construction or washed away by the time of the photos.  I'll probably trim it in the final version because I'm sure that it would be wiped out in the first storm anyway. 


By the way, I did stumble upon the definitive narrative of them losing the hole.  The text discussed a storm at night in January that erased it.  Such a shame, but inevitable it would seem.  Just an unrealistic hole that happened to be spectacular while it lasted.


Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 13, 2018, 07:08:07 PM
Peter, I think you're right about the swale on #8.  Besides the photo you posted, I just saw this passage from a November 26, 1916 article about Lido:

"The (8th) hole is a perfect one-shotter and with a deep depression in front of the green a high tee-ball with stop must be used here to get best results." 

Maybe the writer was wrong, but he says the best shot there was not a low running shot, but a 230 yard carry that landed softly on the green.  Did such a shot exist in 1916?

Thanks for finding that.  That is the passage that I was going to look for. 

I got into hickory golf over the past couple years, mainly as a way to understand how these old courses play.  I do have a high 230 yard shot with vintage equipment, but I can't guarantee that I wouldn't put it in the Atlantic Ocean or 20 yards left on a hole like this.  It would have been a shot only for pros or top ams back then. 

One thing that I'm really getting an appreciation of after reading all these old accounts is that the mid level players and duffers really knew their limitations and were much happier playing par 4s at 3 shot holes and a hole like this one as a 2 shotter.  I bet 10% or less of the players on the Lido hit this green in regulation in its initial form. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 14, 2018, 01:35:14 PM
Peter,
Do you know the  date for your most recent photo? The green must have been sprayed with salt water whenever there was a strong breeze out of the south. I don't know how good turf could have been maintained under those conditions.

I've sent you an IM.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 14, 2018, 02:41:59 PM
Peter,
Do you know the  date for your most recent photo? The green must have been sprayed with salt water whenever there was a strong breeze out of the south. I don't know how good turf could have been maintained under those conditions.

I've sent you an IM.


I don't know the date, but I can try to research for you.  It's one of the best pics that I've seen from the course.  I started a folder where I have been saving every scrap of information that I could find.  That includes every pic and article posted in the previous Lido threads here as well as anything that I could find from magazine archives: Life, American Golfer, Golf Illustrated, etc.  I've organized everything so that when I work on a hole I can quickly review all known information about it.  I'm also keeping a word doc that assembles all written information about each hole (cut and pasted language from various articles) and pictures from holes that the authors listed as similar in nature- mostly from NGLA, Piping Rock, and the British holes that were the original inspiration. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Hendren on March 15, 2018, 10:29:59 AM
Peter, I'm enjoying this thread - keep it up.

Also, thanks to you I've been jamming out to Boz Scaggs with a closed door in my office this morning. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 15, 2018, 04:30:18 PM

I got into hickory golf over the past couple years, mainly as a way to understand how these old courses play.  I do have a high 230 yard shot with vintage equipment...


Including the golf ball of 1916? 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 15, 2018, 11:17:27 PM
You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 


Peter:

As you note, on the original version of the 8th at Lido there was a cross bunker to be carried, but there was a good bit of turf after the bunker and before the swale.  On many of the versions that we see today this turf would be considered the front portion of the green. 

Its tough to tell from your images if you have the swale starting right after the cross bunker or not. 

If I had to guess, the turf before the swale was probably pretty close to the same level as the green itself.  The topo below is the best evidence of the various levels of the land around the hole.  There aren't many photos of the original version that I've found, and none of them are really clear enough to provide much definition.  My guess is that when they built the new version of the hole they did it in the area of the land between the cross-bunker and the swale, which was already raised up and is what we see in the images of the second version of the hole.

I'd also guess that the author of the article Jim quoted had no idea as to how CBM believed the hole should be played.

Sven

Feb. 1915 Vanity Fair -

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NGLA/Lido%20Topo%20-%20Vanity%20Fair%20Feb.%201915_zpsvhbidexh.png)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 16, 2018, 12:45:01 AM

I got into hickory golf over the past couple years, mainly as a way to understand how these old courses play.  I do have a high 230 yard shot with vintage equipment...


Including the golf ball of 1916?


I have used the McIntyre Ouimet balls and they go pretty well.  But most of the time I just use a soft modern ball, like a Wilson Duo or a Chromesoft due to their availability. 


So, my answer is... maybe.  When we play this summer, I'll bring some replica balls with me. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 16, 2018, 01:18:52 AM
You are correct.  It was of the variety where the dip was before the putting surface in this case.  There is a bunker roughly where the chasm was on the original hole. 

Peter:

As you note, on the original version of the 8th at Lido there was a cross bunker to be carried, but there was a good bit of turf after the bunker and before the swale.  On many of the versions that we see today this turf would be considered the front portion of the green. 

Its tough to tell from your images if you have the swale starting right after the cross bunker or not. 

If I had to guess, the turf before the swale was probably pretty close to the same level as the green itself.  The topo below is the best evidence of the various levels of the land around the hole.  There aren't many photos of the original version that I've found, and none of them are really clear enough to provide much definition.  My guess is that when they built the new version of the hole they did it in the area of the land between the cross-bunker and the swale, which was already raised up and is what we see in the images of the second version of the hole.

I'd also guess that the author of the article Jim quoted had no idea as to how CBM believed the hole should be played.

Sven


Sven- that map is really good and when I first saw it, it cleared up some of the parts of the course that were mysterious to me.  #5 was the biggest revelation for me in terms of the shaping.  Also, it cleared up the way that the fairway was contoured for the drive on #12.  I read accounts of how there was a bit of a speed slot there, but I couldn't imagine because it was so close to the water. 

In terms of the rebuilt green with the boardwalk, I did briefly have them both on my plot and I think that they moved it further inland to make room for those tin huts. 

Here is a closeup of the 8th on that Vanity Fair diagram (the black box is the bunker):
(http://i64.tinypic.com/28s0wpf.jpg)

There is some kind of horseshoe shape in the ground after the bunker and in the valley before the green.  Also note that the topo lines indicate that the green is raised, but they don't show that the other areas would be.  So, in my current draft of the hole, I don't have as much as a dramatic biarritz type shape as I see at other version of the hole. I have the fairway and the bunker on roughly the same level as the tee (except the tee is a little elevated), and then I have a dip after the bunker and a rise up to the green, which I currently have as being something like 5 feet above the initial fairway section before the bunker. 


Sort of shaoed like this:



                                       ________
-----------------\________/

I'd actually like some help on this topic from the board.  Sven- if you can, post a side view elevation drawing of what you think that it was probably like.  I think this is one of those areas where there is a blindspot and we need to make our best call.  First of many. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on March 16, 2018, 02:52:44 AM
Looking at that Vanity Fair diagram, I’d say the area before the swale is the hogsback, raised at the same level (or as near to) as the green.


But I’ve never looked at anything to do with this hole before.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 16, 2018, 08:58:59 AM
Looking at that Vanity Fair diagram, I’d say the area before the swale is the hogsback, raised at the same level (or as near to) as the green.



I agree with this, and it fits CBM's own descriptions of what a Biarritz should look like.

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tommy Naccarato on March 16, 2018, 04:25:57 PM
Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!


I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)


One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.


On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.


Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.











Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on March 16, 2018, 05:46:28 PM
For what it's worth, I've worked on several versions of the Biarritz where the approach area was a bit lower than the green, but sort of ramped up toward it, because of the natural slopes.  [These would include the holes at Yeamans Hall and Mid Ocean, as I first saw them.]  On those, the leading or tee-side edge of the "front plateau" is maybe five feet lower than the front of the green, but the opposite edge [just before the swale] is only maybe a foot or two lower than the front of the green.


Lido, however, started from flat ground, so I don't know why Raynor would have made the approach significantly lower than the green in that location.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Garland Bayley on March 16, 2018, 06:37:59 PM
...
Lido, however, started from flat ground, so I don't know why Raynor would have made the approach significantly lower than the green in that location.
Wasn't the hole in question built on fill? Couldn't it have been simply a matter of not spending time and money on filling it all to the same level?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 16, 2018, 10:06:30 PM
Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!

I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)

One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.

On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.

Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.

Tommy- welcome back.  I'm glad to get your comments, especially since you've put so much thought into this. 

In one of those old articles, I did read where the author was going on about how difficult it was to find your ball in the near white sand and bents.  He suggested that a great invention would be the orange golf ball.  Tough place to caddie I can imagine. 

Regarding your commend on the natural grade and the built up fairways- that is what makes this project somewhat doable.  It would be much harder if there were more natural landforms.  For this build, I first set everything about 5 feet above the water table, which gives me a little wiggle room down if I need it- like on the 8th.  Then, I plan to built up each hole from there like I did on #1.  One other nice thing about the generally flat plot and the build up system is that I can do the holes out of order as most of the elevations don't carry over.  I'll probably hop around based on which holes I have the most information on first.  That way I will get a better feel for the place and practice that tricks that I'll apply to get the environment looking right.  Can hopefully apply those lessons to the holes with less info later. 

There are definitely going to be some challenging holes when there are more dramatic features.  I'll need some advice on the alps hole in terms of how to handle the little fairway section over the alps and bunker.  The knoll hole will be tricky too without a direct photo.  I can see it in the background in some others, but not well. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 16, 2018, 10:52:46 PM
For what it's worth, I've worked on several versions of the Biarritz where the approach area was a bit lower than the green, but sort of ramped up toward it, because of the natural slopes.  [These would include the holes at Yeamans Hall and Mid Ocean, as I first saw them.]  On those, the leading or tee-side edge of the "front plateau" is maybe five feet lower than the front of the green, but the opposite edge [just before the swale] is only maybe a foot or two lower than the front of the green.

Lido, however, started from flat ground, so I don't know why Raynor would have made the approach significantly lower than the green in that location.

Here is a photo of Mid Ocean. 
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5662fbfce4b03851361678d4/t/59585f83f7e0ab5022c67ba0/1498963863147/?format=1000w)
That is sort of the general idea of what I was thinking Lido's was like, except that the distance between the end of the crossing bunker and the front of the green at Lido appears to be 50 yards based on my measurements after locking it into scale using the aerials + drawings and plastacine.  The drawings appears to show the dip starting almost immediately after the bunker, so that is still about a 40 yard gully.  It also seems a little different because of that horseshoe shape to the way that it begins. 

I'll put more work into this and will post updated versions from better angles when I can for more feedback.

Just for others to consider, here are what I think are the 2 best views of the hole (in addition to the one where they are mowing the green):
(http://i63.tinypic.com/ndluo0.jpg)
The camera is from a fairly elevated position.  I drew a line where it looks like the green would start based on the slopes for the false front and another over the horizon of the shelf.  Note that the cross bunker isn't really visible.  It looks like a sliver of it might be peeking through.  The long grasses might be blocking it, or it may have been washed away by this point.  Similarly, this tee isn't the original tips.  It might be a forward tee or the back tee might have been lost. 

And here is the pic with Ray putting.  Note that in this pic, the right side of the green (the side toward the water) appears pretty flat, while in the pic above, it is highly built up.  It seems logical to think that the Ray version is more original and the pic above might be after fortifications were added to protect the green from the surf.  This would reconcile with Tommy's comment, which is that the green was basically on the beach when it was originally built.  The green above and the one that I have built so far really both have that buffer between the target and the beach.  I'm strongly reconsidering that now. 
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2exxbx1.jpg)


One other thing that was bothering me was that I couldn't see that big right to left tilt in the pic with the mower, but it was so prominent from the pics from the tee.  I think the answer was that it was no illusion.  It just changed.  This poor hole was getting battered right out of the gate. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 16, 2018, 11:32:40 PM
This poor hole was getting battered right out of the gate.

It makes me wonder why they built it so exposed to the ocean in the first place. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 17, 2018, 12:04:07 AM
This poor hole was getting battered right out of the gate.

It makes me wonder why they built it so exposed to the ocean in the first place.

I think they might have been trying to compete with the British links.  Maybe a little inferiority complex.  A lot of the hype that looks like it came out when this was being built and shortly after mentioned that it had British qualities. 

Even the caption for the Ray photo read "Ray putting on the eight green at Lido with the seas waves lapping the edge of the green.  All of the atmosphere of Britain's seaside links to be had here."

In another account that I read, it declared that the 8th at Lido may be the most expensive golf hole in the World and estimated it's value at something like $250K.  Their rationale was that it was the opportunity cost of the hole because the land would be worth that if sold off. 

So, if the elements didn't get the hole, it seems like economics may have anyway, especially when the club started to struggle financially. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 17, 2018, 12:34:03 AM
That is sort of the general idea of what I was thinking Lido's was like, except that the distance between the end of the crossing bunker and the front of the green at Lido appears to be 50 yards based on my measurements after locking it into scale using the aerials + drawings and plastacine.  The drawings appears to show the dip starting almost immediately after the bunker, so that is still about a 40 yard gully.  It also seems a little different because of that horseshoe shape to the way that it begins. 



Take another look at the topo map of the hole.  Everything that is white is turf with the bunker being black, everything else is the sandy waste. 

From the tee there was sandy waste, a bit of turf, the cross bunker, more turf (which from the topo is elevated just like the green), the swale (the collection of tightly mapped topo lines), and then the green proper.

What you are calling a forty yard gully after the bunker was a raised area (the hogsback feature), or what on a fully green-turfed version would be the front portion in front of the swale.

This is probably the best photo I have that shows all of this.  The foreshortening makes it difficult to differentiate the different pieces, but you can make out the bunker and the dark line where the swale was.

If you haven't read them, I'd recommend finding the CBM and Whigham articles on the templates they were planning to build at NGLA.  There are a ton of clues built into the descriptions of the various holes that will help you in figuring out what they were trying to do with each one. 

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NGLA/Screen%20Shot%202018-03-16%20at%209.28.15%20PM_zpsxiqp2wlm.png)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 17, 2018, 12:52:43 AM
Realized we posted the same photo.


Where you have the green lines marking the start of the green you have actually marked the start of the hogsback.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 17, 2018, 12:08:01 PM
That is sort of the general idea of what I was thinking Lido's was like, except that the distance between the end of the crossing bunker and the front of the green at Lido appears to be 50 yards based on my measurements after locking it into scale using the aerials + drawings and plastacine.  The drawings appears to show the dip starting almost immediately after the bunker, so that is still about a 40 yard gully.  It also seems a little different because of that horseshoe shape to the way that it begins. 

Take another look at the topo map of the hole.  Everything that is white is turf with the bunker being black, everything else is the sandy waste. 

From the tee there was sandy waste, a bit of turf, the cross bunker, more turf (which from the topo is elevated just like the green), the swale (the collection of tightly mapped topo lines), and then the green proper.

What you are calling a forty yard gully after the bunker was a raised area (the hogsback feature), or what on a fully green-turfed version would be the front portion in front of the swale.

This is probably the best photo I have that shows all of this.  The foreshortening makes it difficult to differentiate the different pieces, but you can make out the bunker and the dark line where the swale was.

If you haven't read them, I'd recommend finding the CBM and Whigham articles on the templates they were planning to build at NGLA.  There are a ton of clues built into the descriptions of the various holes that will help you in figuring out what they were trying to do with each one. 

Thanks for posting that.  I understand what you're saying.  I was just interpreting some of the topo lines incorrectly and I'm glad that I explained it.  Your explanation makes way more sense to me and does put the hole more in line with what I expected it to be.  It's good that I didn't work on it last night with my prior misunderstanding. 

I'm looking at that Mid Ocean hole and trying to relate that to the horseshoe ring that is drawn on the diagram of the Lido hole.  If you imagine the arc of those front bunkers at Mid Ocean wrapping all the way around and connecting, that is pretty much the shape and size of the horseshoe ring on the Lido drawing (the arc that starts the hogsback).  Do you think that is a dry trench with rough or more of a sandy wasteland trench?  I'm thinking about making the depth of that be approximately the same as the depth of the Mid Ocean bunkers and the valley be about twice as deep.

I will eventually get this right.  I like the way that this sounding board process is going.  You guys are some fine scholars!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 18, 2018, 01:27:00 AM
OK, taking a mulligan on #8.  Did a lot of remeasuring.  Overlaid the Vanity Fair drawing and the plastacine with eachother and over the map of the hole in the designer.  I traced guidelines exactly over the cross bunker, the horseshoe indentation, the valley before the green, the fairway edges, and everything else that was contained.  Then did a lot of shaping to try to get different views to look like the pics (note that the angles are different with the true back tee though, compared to the tee in most pics right by the #7 green.  I also tried harder to generate the feel of the waste areas.  That is time consuming work, but will tie everything together eventually.  Also, I scrapped the big build up on the right side of the green, because I'm now assuming that it wasn't the original hole and was a futile attempt to block the sea. 

* I forgot to remove the beach grass behind the green before I took the pics.  I don't think that was there once the building went in. 

Here is the #8, v2.
From the tee, the cross bunker is barely visible the way that I have it.  From this elevated view, you can see it. 
(http://i68.tinypic.com/10hsgnl.jpg)

View from just short of the cross bunker.  You can see my attempt at building in the horseshoe swale just over the trap. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2e6a8sj.jpg)

The valley
(http://i64.tinypic.com/21nih4i.jpg)

This one shows what I was trying to do with the horseshoe.  Very geometric from the air, but not the ground view. 
(http://i68.tinypic.com/jv6tk8.jpg)

And finally a view from the beach after a very weak slice.  Threw a beached rowboat in for fun to see what it would look like.  Inspired by the pic of the guy hitting off the boat wreckage in the annual tourney they played there. 
(http://i68.tinypic.com/bi30bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 18, 2018, 09:42:23 AM
Peter,
This is superb work. What you've created captures what I think the Lido must have felt like - on a bright, sunny day.

What "big building on the right side of the green" are you referring to?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Cal Seifert on March 18, 2018, 10:04:33 AM
This is amazing.  What games will this be playable on?  I've been thinking about getting Perfect Golf.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Kalen Braley on March 18, 2018, 02:53:57 PM
Agree with the others here, this is the best simulated stuff I've ever seen.  Seems to give an actual feel for what it could have been as opposed to cartoonish landscapes...
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 18, 2018, 05:12:19 PM
Peter,
This is superb work. What you've created captures what I think the Lido must have felt like - on a bright, sunny day.

What "big building on the right side of the green" are you referring to?

I was just referring to the building behind the 8th green.  What was that anyway?  I'm a little confused with the buildings/ clubhouses because it seems like new things popped up throughout the years. 

- There is the resort/ towers.  Was this ever called the clubhouse?
- Then there is what I see as the clubhouse on the vanity fair diagram, which is near the 18-hole putting course (not sure if that putting course actually existed)
- There is the building behind the 8th green. 
- then there is a building that went up behind the 9th green.
- and then there was the whole complex that went up along the beach- cabanas, boardwalk, etc. 

If someone has bothered to learn about all of that and the timing, please educate me.  I'd like to go with a certain date and only have the appropriate structures.  Please give me an excuse to delete the building behind the 8th hole!  It's not the most beautiful structure and it's blocking a great view. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 18, 2018, 05:13:49 PM
This is amazing.  What games will this be playable on?  I've been thinking about getting Perfect Golf.

I'll PM you and give you information on the software and alternatives. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 18, 2018, 08:57:37 PM
Peter, my response to #8, v.2:

WOW
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 18, 2018, 09:41:14 PM
Peter,
I don't have an accurate timeline for the structures on the course but I'll take a stab at it.

The building you've designed behind the old 8th was the original clubhouse, probably built near the time the course was opened. Its demise probably had nothing to do with the loss of the 8th green which was frequently damaged and finally washed out by a storm in the 20s. One article said that the green was there one day and gone the next. Another green was built that created a shorter hole (140 yards) but that one eventually was replaced by the one that's nestled behind the beach house and cabanas.

There's no evidence that the building shown on the Vanity Fair plan was built. It could have been but would have been replaced by the one behind the 8th which looks much larger. Photos show that additional building was done behind it and a tennis court added in front. That complex must have become obsolete or in the way due to the construction of the beach buildings. There is an undated photo in Bahto's book that shows the original clubhouse, what appears to be the second iteration of the 8th green and the multi-story clubhouse. That suggests that after 1928 the beach buildings were constructed, the original clubhouse razed, and the 8th was again moved. A small clubhouse was built behind the 9th green at some point, probably after the larger one behind the 8th was removed. I assume it was needed for players starting the round. It looks large enough to house locker rooms.

Added 3/19:
This photo shows the time of transition from the old to new clubhouse. Note the comment on the location of the 8th green. This location must be the 2nd iteration. It's no longer hanging on the edge of the dune.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/1928clubhouses_zpso1xxbyx6.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/1928clubhouses_zpso1xxbyx6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tommy Naccarato on March 19, 2018, 01:20:43 PM
Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!

I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)

One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.

On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.

Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.

Tommy- welcome back.  I'm glad to get your comments, especially since you've put so much thought into this. 

In one of those old articles, I did read where the author was going on about how difficult it was to find your ball in the near white sand and bents.  He suggested that a great invention would be the orange golf ball.  Tough place to caddie I can imagine. 

Regarding your commend on the natural grade and the built up fairways- that is what makes this project somewhat doable.  It would be much harder if there were more natural landforms.  For this build, I first set everything about 5 feet above the water table, which gives me a little wiggle room down if I need it- like on the 8th.  Then, I plan to built up each hole from there like I did on #1.  One other nice thing about the generally flat plot and the build up system is that I can do the holes out of order as most of the elevations don't carry over.  I'll probably hop around based on which holes I have the most information on first.  That way I will get a better feel for the place and practice that tricks that I'll apply to get the environment looking right.  Can hopefully apply those lessons to the holes with less info later. 

There are definitely going to be some challenging holes when there are more dramatic features.  I'll need some advice on the alps hole in terms of how to handle the little fairway section over the alps and bunker.  The knoll hole will be tricky too without a direct photo.  I can see it in the background in some others, but not well.

Peter,


I’ve always felt that the entire strategy of the Biarritz was the disguising distance with the front, compared to the back, creating an illusion of it being closer then it really is. (That it’s further back). The swale is strategic depending on the shot you hit and I think you’ve accurately captured it!


Honestly, you get this done, I’m going to want to play it! Lol!







Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 19, 2018, 04:14:54 PM
Peter, is the tee we see in the revised #8 the back tee? 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 20, 2018, 08:04:37 AM
Peter,
I don't have an accurate timeline for the structures on the course but I'll take a stab at it.

The building you've designed behind the old 8th was the original clubhouse, probably built near the time the course was opened. Its demise probably had nothing to do with the loss of the 8th green which was frequently damaged and finally washed out by a storm in the 20s. One article said that the green was there one day and gone the next. Another green was built that created a shorter hole (140 yards) but that one eventually was replaced by the one that's nestled behind the beach house and cabanas.

There's no evidence that the building shown on the Vanity Fair plan was built. It could have been but would have been replaced by the one behind the 8th which looks much larger. Photos show that additional building was done behind it and a tennis court added in front. That complex must have become obsolete or in the way due to the construction of the beach buildings. There is an undated photo in Bahto's book that shows the original clubhouse, what appears to be the second iteration of the 8th green and the multi-story clubhouse. That suggests that after 1928 the beach buildings were constructed, the original clubhouse razed, and the 8th was again moved. A small clubhouse was built behind the 9th green at some point, probably after the larger one behind the 8th was removed. I assume it was needed for players starting the round. It looks large enough to house locker rooms.

Added 3/19:
This photo shows the time of transition from the old to new clubhouse. Note the comment on the location of the 8th green. This location must be the 2nd iteration. It's no longer hanging on the edge of the dune.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/cadcaddo/gca/1928clubhouses_zpso1xxbyx6.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/cadcaddo/media/gca/1928clubhouses_zpso1xxbyx6.jpg.html)


Craig,


I think there was a club house that preceded the two club houses shown above:  This advertisement is from March 1926 Golf Illustrated:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/51676DB2-3ECC-40A6-BE6C-687E79EECA0A_zps4xo0rsuf.jpg)


If you scroll back to the close-up photo of the 8th green you can see this building in the background of the photo.


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 20, 2018, 09:54:46 AM

Craig,


I think there was a club house that preceded the two club houses shown above:  This advertisement is from March 1926 Golf Illustrated:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/51676DB2-3ECC-40A6-BE6C-687E79EECA0A_zps4xo0rsuf.jpg)


If you scroll back to the close-up photo of the 8th green you can see this building in the background of the photo.


Bret

Bret,
A great find. However, I think Bossert is taking some liberties here. I think his building could have served as club storage or a caddie shack. The larger building near the ocean was consistently referred to as the old clubhouse. It also looks the part.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ted Sturges on March 20, 2018, 03:05:20 PM
Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!


I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)


One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.


On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.


Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.


Tommy,


My good man...so glad to see you are still showing your face around these parts.  I haven't seen you on this site since Dr. Katz was "doling out prescriptions".  And...this will probably sound like "get off my lawn" guy, but I think it is humorous that you are listed as a "Junior Member" of GCA.  Ha!  You (and me) were posting here when this site had less than ten participants.  When I came back from my first hiatus, I too was labeled with the scarlet letter of a "Junior Member".  Ran has now promoted me to a "full member".  Good grief.  I think those of us in the first 10 posters should get some sort of badge identifying us as "GCA pioneers".  And...you and I may be in the minority of those first ten to have not been kicked off.  Just sayin'...   Hope you are well my friend.


TS
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 20, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
Peter, is the tee we see in the revised #8 the back tee?


Yes, I'm using the back tee from 230+ yards.  I aligned the plastacine map over the course and everything locked in with the aerials, except the 8th- because the aerial had the modified 8th that was moved inland. 


So, I traced over the plastacine into my plot to get it exactly where it should be relative to the other holes and the beach. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 20, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
Thanks, Peter, and is that green space on the left side, slightly more than half way up, the 7th green or the 18th green? 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 20, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
Thanks, Peter, and is that green space on the left side, slightly more than half way up, the 7th green or the 18th green?

that is the 9th tee box.  When the 8th hole got moved inland, it crowded out that tee box and they shifted it to the back edge of the 18th green.  So, I put the 9th tee in its proper spot here. 

I'm at Streamsong right now and have to head to the bar, but I'll post an update tonight on #8.  Bret L has pointed out a major error in my interpretation of the plastacine.  I was viewing it as if the light source was coming from the top of the image, but it is really coming from the bottom.  As you can imagine, that makes everything the opposite.  It doesn't matter on 1 since I was working off of actual photos.  But on #8, it makes a major difference in how I interpreted the horseshoe over the cross bunker.  It should really be a big rise/ hogsback and not an indentation as I built it.  There are a couple other changes that I'll explain later. 

But to see the issue, take the plastacine image and turn it upside down.  I think it is just human nature to assume a light source is coming from the top of the image.  Once you view it this way, it is obvious that I built the hole incorrectly. 

While I'm disappointed that some of my work was in vain, I'm excited to get a more accurate version going.  And I'm REALLY glad that Bret pointed this out to me before I got any further and started more holes.  The whole plastacine map makes so much more sense to me now that I'm seeing it correctly. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on March 20, 2018, 05:26:00 PM
Peter,


Do you have the plasticine close-up of 8? I thought you were working from the Vanity Fair diagram alone...
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 20, 2018, 05:26:35 PM

Just for others to consider, here are what I think are the 2 best views of the hole (in addition to the one where they are mowing the green):
(http://i63.tinypic.com/ndluo0.jpg)

Similarly, this tee isn't the original tips.  It might be a forward tee or the back tee might have been lost. 


Hope I'm not nitpicking, just trying to get straight in my mind the various greens and tees in these photos, and where they lie in relation to each other. 

I agree with you, the tee in the photo above is not the original back tee.  For one thing, the guy on the left is standing on much lower-cut grass, with a very well-defined border.  Looks pretty big -- the upper right portion of the 7th green perhaps?  If so, the back tee is quite a bit further back, and closer to the ocean. 

If this is accurate, I think golfers playing the tips could see the forward tee.  It would be about half way to the 9th tee, and almost directly in line with it.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 20, 2018, 09:07:00 PM
This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration. The original 8th tee was directly off the back of the 7th green. The photo in Evangelist - taken no earlier than 1927 - shows the beach nearly up to the edge of the 7th green. The photo isn't very clear but there looks to be a tee box between the 7th and 18th greens with the green just short of where the original 8th would have been.

The photo above is so foreshortened that the clubhouse seems to be right behind the green. I think there is a lot of space between it and the green.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 20, 2018, 09:54:37 PM
This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration.
Before that did the hole have a closer tee, along with the 234-yard tee? 

Would like to know the year this photo was taken. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 20, 2018, 09:57:05 PM
Just so everyone knows what we're talking about, here's the plasticine model:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NGLA/Lido%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20July%201915%202_zpsyq2p49de.png)(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NGLA/Lido%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20July%201915%203_zpsrdpkjmfl.png)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 20, 2018, 10:29:57 PM
This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration.
Before that did the hole have a closer tee, along with the 234-yard tee? 

Would like to know the year this photo was taken.

I shouldn't make definitive statements - I don't think what I said was correct. I believe the photo is actually the original hole. I also think the tee is the original. The close cut area on the left of the tee must be the back of the 7th green, I can't explain what else it could be. The photo was take no earlier than 1922.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 20, 2018, 10:49:23 PM
Craig, if the various maps and plasticine models are accurate, the back tee of the 8th hole should not be right next to the 7th green.  That's why I wonder if there was a second, closer tee on the 8th, and that's what we might see in the photo. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 20, 2018, 10:52:41 PM
And here is the 8th hole with the model flipped upside down.  So, now the light really is coming from the top to the bottom of the image.  For me at least, this helps me see it more accurately. 


(http://i64.tinypic.com/10nwe2d.jpg)


When viewing it in inverse, I originally thought that the upslope to the green was the black shade and that the front of the green must have crested over and sloped temporarily to the back. 


Now, with the correct perspective, the valley goes down in the black shade and rises back up in the white.  So, the green really starts much further back than my draft. 

When I overlaid the Vanity Fair diagram and the plastacine, I noticed that the VF diagram had a shallower green and I couldn't figure out why.  Well, this is why.  It was correct and I was just assigning too much green to the plastacine because I was going all the way down to the trough of the valley my mistake (thinking it was the peak).  Now, they are in agreement. 

Also, the VF diagram unmistakably shows a square green.  And that is not stylized because it is the only one shown like that.  I believe that the vertical dark line on the plastacine above does show the line of the green on the inland side (to the right of the 8 on the image above).  You can also see a horizontal line that seems to show a very slight rise that could mark the start of the green.  These seem to agree with the shape and size of the VF diagram.  I'll try to overlay them and post if I can get it so that it isn't too muddled. 

Re the plastacine- can anyone clear up questions that I have about it?  I've been making assumptions that may not be true:
- Was it done as a blueprint for the course or was it done after the course was built to reflect the course (i.e. what was the purpose of it)? 
- Was the model actually shaded or was it put in a room with an angled light source and photographed? 
- Who built it?
- What happened to it?  Seems like the type of thing that would be tough to throw away... but also a pain to store. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 20, 2018, 10:55:53 PM
Craig, if the various maps and plasticine models are accurate, the back tee of the 8th hole should not be right next to the 7th green.  That's why I wonder if there was a second, closer tee on the 8th, and that's what we might see in the photo.

I have been assuming that it sas either a replacement tee or a shorter tee that was added later.  I have seen mention where they were marketing Lido as 3 courses- a Championship course, a course for the average player, and a very short course for the novice.  While I think that language came way later as they were trying to shake off the reputation of it being a "he-man" course, it seems possible that they could have added shorter sets of tees pretty early on to provide relief. 

By the way, here is the merge/ overlay of the plastacine with the VF over the top of it.  They are in perfect agreement now.  Because I thought the plastacine had a depression for the horseshoe, I read the topo lines of the VF as also being a depression.  But now I know they were signaling a rise.  I'll be doing this for each hole going forward. 

(http://i63.tinypic.com/jgtj6r.jpg)


And one last thing to address Craig's comment about the building being further behind the green that it appears.  That is correct.  Based on the 1926 aerial, I show that the back edge of the green was 87 yards from the closest point on that building/ clubhouse.  I didn't know that when I did my draft of the hole and I have the building much closer to the green.  I'll adjust accordingly and it won't look so crowded with normal focal length. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/1zvu2z4.jpg)



That's it for tonight for me.  36 more holes tomorrow.  Just played Streamsong black for the first time in pre storm/ tornado warning winds.  Was a lot of fun, but also draining. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on March 20, 2018, 11:42:22 PM
Jim:


The scorecard for the course had tees at 234, 175 and 168 yards.


Sven
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Drew Groeger on March 20, 2018, 11:45:36 PM
Peter,
I was going to ask the same thing: what ever happened to the plasticine model? Or models? The reason I say models is it appears there are differences between the model shown in the Vanity Fair article and the one shown in the Golf Illustrated article, particularly in the rough around the island fairway to 4 and the rough on 5 (as well as the placement of the 6th tee shown in both).

I would assume they pre-date the construction of the course since the VF article is from February 1915 (cannot recall the date of the GI article). Or perhaps the images are of the same model that had been re-worked over time. That is why they used plasticine in the first place, because of its not-drying capabilities. As a humorous aside, maybe at some point someone picked up the model in a dubious matter and added a thumbprint to a green. Instant punchbowl!

So I would be wary of relying too much on the plasticine model images for specific mounding/undulations, more so for intent I guess. And at the same time, I realize for many of the holes the plasticine model and a few aerial pics are all you have to go on .
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 21, 2018, 07:37:43 AM
Another small detail: it looks to me like the building behind the 8th green does not line up squarely with the hole.  i.e. I think it angles away at about a 45 degree angle or so, from the line between the tee and the green. 

Thanks, Sven, I bet the tee we see in several of these photos is one of the up tees, which you could probably see from the tips. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on March 21, 2018, 08:29:37 AM
On the overlay it will be possible to see where 234 yards puts the back tee. It's possible that the 1922 photo was taken from the 234 tee and the golfers are standing on the one at 175.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 21, 2018, 09:09:19 AM
It's possible that the 1922 photo was taken from the 234 tee and the golfers are standing on the one at 175.

The angle doesn't look right to me for that: you'd have to hit your tee shot on #8 over the 7th green, which I don't think they did.  Based on the maps, the back tee should be further back, and closer to the ocean.  Draw a line from the right half of the building to the golfer who just hit his shot on #8, and extend it back another 50 yards or so.  IMO that's about where the back tee was. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 21, 2018, 01:04:47 PM
I have the tee at 235 yards and in the location that the plastacine and VF show it.  In most of the screen shots that I take, I mess with the depth of field a bit so that you can see details all the way to the flag. 


Re: the clubhouse, I'm very tempted to just delete it since it wasn't originally there.  I'll first try putting it in the correct location and angled the right way and will show what it looks like with and without it. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 22, 2018, 12:19:47 AM

Just a quick post for the night-

Here is a particularly good and detailed musing on the 8th hole from a newspaper article by George Trever (titled "Lido Starts Golf Season").  The version that I have is very difficult to read, but here is my translation of the parts relating to the 8th:

Quote
The salty tang of the seas lends savor to Lido's short eight, a fascinating one shotter which parallels the Atlantic.  Only a few years ago this use to be one of the world's classic short holes.  It called for a sharply hit iron of 180 yards to a green that sat astride the low dunes bordering the beach.  The tee was also perched on the dune crest, the entire line of play following the coast.  A slice off this tee meant a sloshy tramp out onto the beach, with the odds in favor of finding your ball buried in the fine, white sand.  The green sloped from right to left, the "down kick" acting as an incentive to the bold chap who oblivious of the yawning expanse of beach, dared aim his shot well out to the ocean side. 

That eight hole was too good to last.  Winter tides steadily undermined the exposed green.  Churned to a frothy meringue by January winds, the waves enveloped this green one night as neatly as Von Moltke encircled MacMahon's ill-fated army at Sedan.  When the waters receded, Lido members discovered they were minus an eight hole.  So much real estate had been dredged away by the tides that the green committee decided to reduce the eight to a mashie niblick pitch of 140 yards.  In its modified form the eight is only a pale ghost of the old layout.  The green itself never has been successfully reconstructed.  A salty film of spray, flung duneward by the Atlantic, kills the type of grass that makes velvety putting surfaces.  Winter blasts raise havoc with bulkheads and breakwaters.  it would cost a Pittsburgh fortune to recreate the old eight and preserve it intact against a churlish sea and a cantankerous breeze. 

We almost forgot the wind!  It was the blustery off sea gales that made the short eight such a tantalizing problem.  Club values would change with every shifting breeze.  Now a mashie iron would get you home, now a lusty spoon which would be essential.  When alarm signals were set along the coast the wind-borne particles of sand stung your face like needles.  A refreshing, exuberant breath-catching hole that short-lived (shifty?) old eight!"

Here is one more very interesting excerpt from the article:

Quote
"During the construction quick sand devoured a team of horses attached to a dump cart, the driver barely escaping.  No attempt was ever made to excavate the horses- their skeletons still lie beneath the sixth fairway.  After struggling that far, many a tortured dub has wished himself down there with them."
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on March 22, 2018, 09:45:10 AM
Here is a clip from 1930 noting the golf house was now located in the south wing of the building behind the 8th green. The building was called the Ventian Pavillion at this point.  If you look closely, the building is actually the same building you see in the early photos of the Biarritz.  However, two towers have been added to the sides of the building and it has been detailed to fit in with the Spanish mission style architecture surrounding it.


New York Times-June 22, 1930:

(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/F0A69360-FA9D-4519-9F41-C677880A92AB_zpso2wgioxn.png)


Notice how you can see the tower in the background that sits on the Boardwalk


In 1933, you can still make out the original building behind the green, but the angle is different and there is a lot more construction surrounding the building.  Notice the original roof line broken up by a stone arch above the doorway and you can still see the broad chimney that sat in the middle of the triangular roof.


Golf Illustrated-March 1933:


(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/1CBC787B-E3F6-4710-A222-A75E834B51AE_zpsngl8yqjq.png)

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on March 22, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
Man, I wish I could mainline this thread directly into my veins. Loving it so much. Great work to Peter and to everyone else who is contributing. Reminds me a bit of the terrific Biarritz thread from a few years back that Sven was a big part of. Much conventional wisdom was dispelled.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on March 22, 2018, 04:55:05 PM
Man, I wish I could mainline this thread directly into my veins. Loving it so much. Great work to Peter and to everyone else who is contributing. Reminds me a bit of the terrific Biarritz thread from a few years back that Sven was a big part of. Much conventional wisdom was dispelled.


That was my favourite thread ever on this website.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on March 22, 2018, 07:48:01 PM
Man, I wish I could mainline this thread directly into my veins. Loving it so much. Great work to Peter and to everyone else who is contributing. Reminds me a bit of the terrific Biarritz thread from a few years back that Sven was a big part of. Much conventional wisdom was dispelled.


That was my favourite thread ever on this website.


Same! I think this means Peter should recreate the original Biarritz course when he’s done with Lido.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 22, 2018, 08:29:50 PM
Man, I wish I could mainline this thread directly into my veins. Loving it so much. Great work to Peter and to everyone else who is contributing. Reminds me a bit of the terrific Biarritz thread from a few years back that Sven was a big part of. Much conventional wisdom was dispelled.


That was my favourite thread ever on this website.


Same! I think this means Peter should recreate the original Biarritz course when he’s done with Lido.

The problem there is choosing which version.  They constantly changed the course, more than once erasing some fascinating holes. 

Maybe a time-composite version, that used the best holes, even if they never all existed at the same time.  e.g. I'd love to see the Cliff hole, the Chasm hole, and all the beach holes (including the one the template is based on).  IIRC, several holes crossed each other -- that could be interesting as well.

Like you guys, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.  Hope Peter is willing to share some of the other Lido holes too.   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on March 23, 2018, 11:13:57 AM
The photobucket issue has robbed it of some of its impact, but here's the Biarritz thread for those who are curious or missed it the first time around: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html


The whole thing is worth a read from start to finish. A lot of truly compelling drama in there. And if you're like me, it might cause you to spend a few hours on Google Maps Street View exploring the location of the Cliff Hole.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 23, 2018, 01:30:15 PM
Like you guys, I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.  Hope Peter is willing to share some of the other Lido holes too.

Jim- I'll post everything that I do when I make some progress.  This may be a 1 hole every few weeks kind of project since I'll take as much time as it takes to try to get them right. 

My next step is #8 v3, which I hope to get to this weekend.  I know what to do, but just need a solid block of time to carefully re-do it.  I've already moved the clubhouse to the correct footprint, but that was an easy tweak. 

The Biarritz course does look like it would be a lot of fun to do.  But I have a few on my hit list before I could get to that.  I am about a third of the way through Mill Road Farm (which is looking really good) and have barely started Olympia Fields #2 and #3 courses.  Without considering the Biarritz course, my future plans were to tackle Ocean Links and possibly Boca Raton- South.  Not set in stone though.   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 23, 2018, 02:20:50 PM
Peter, where are you getting the info for Mill Road Farm?  Like Lido, I think this one will interest lots of GCAers. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 23, 2018, 04:43:44 PM
Peter, where are you getting the info for Mill Road Farm?  Like Lido, I think this one will interest lots of GCAers.

The Nature Faker was the big source.  I also did a lot of elevation study off of Google Earth and going to the property (some of the contours are still there and the general elevations are the same).  So far, I've only made progress on 5 holes.  It's on ice until Lido gets done.  When I get back to it, I'll open up a thread. 

(http://i67.tinypic.com/6okewp.jpg)


(http://i68.tinypic.com/2uyg3t5.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 31, 2018, 02:06:57 AM
Sorry for the delay.  Got extremely busy with work projects.  I finally had time tonight to deconstruct #8 v2 and produce the real version with the hogsback in all of it's glory.  To summarize, I was viewing the plastacine lighting direction incorrectly and oppositely and that caused all sorts of confusion- mainly I thought there was a horseshoe shaped depression in front of the green when there was really a pronounced elevated hogsback.  With my blinders on, I also misinterpreted the photos to see what I wanted to see. 

Here are some photos of the new build.  I'm experimenting with atmosphere/ weather a bit too and am showing low sun angles to make the shaping more discernible.  From the line of the tee, the new shaping really adds that deceptiveness to the depth of the green.  The Biarritz valley is invisible until you are almost upon in. 

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2rwriaq.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/o5xt9j.jpg)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/10d5kt3.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/29p6poj.jpg)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/r9gyrn.jpg)


(http://i67.tinypic.com/30c6qmd.jpg)

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 31, 2018, 02:23:10 AM
Also, here are couple of snap shots that I took of #1 with similar lighting.

I did a one click alps to the left for fun, just to see how visible that it will be when it is done.  I'm also in process of toning down the undulations on #1 based on additional angles that I have seen.  I think that I got a little too carried away based on the image that I used and the extreme shadows.  In particular, the ridge just over the road and the initial section of the hole needs to be lowered.  The 2nd hole will have a heroic tee shot over a blind ridge with facing bunkers, but the first hole shouldn't have the same dynamic. 

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ywwm4y.jpg)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/x1lmat.jpg)

I'll probably be moving on to the 10th hole next since it connects to #1... and since it should be a really fun one. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on March 31, 2018, 10:18:33 AM
Better and better, at least to my eye.  Seems like you're making it less groomed and symmetrical, more wild, which looks more realistic to me based on the photos. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 01, 2018, 07:38:48 PM
Quick update- I knocked out a decent first draft of #9, which I think will end up being the easiest hole on the course to do because of the flatness.  The only to-dos are to lower the green and the tee a bit more.  I also built out the clubhouse area with the driveway in, the circle drive, and some other touches.  Put dunes along the Atlantic shore to mimic how they are now and how they probably have always been. 

For #9, I thought that the hole would be a bit boring from the player's perspective, but it actually looks like a delightful little hole with the nice backdrop of the yet-to-be developed waste area to the East. 

From the elevated vantage point, you can see that the easier drive is to the left side of the fairway.  Going right required a slightly longer carry to get past the last trap.  In this pic, you can also see the sand dunes up the coast line to the right of the clubhouse. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/5d6xox.jpg)

From the player's vantage point. 
(http://i67.tinypic.com/w019pd.jpg)

If you take the safer drive to the left, you're left with an approach over the greenside bunker and the green pitch won't help you stop the ball.  Over is more sand.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/15mcoyx.jpg)

Say it's down wind and you hit a big drive, you'll have a down wind half shot that's you'd have to perfectly execute. 
(http://i67.tinypic.com/opmctl.jpg)

If you drive it out to the right, you can bounce the ball on, which could be a really nice option when it's windy.  In this photo, it shows that angle, but for a drive that doesn't clear the 2nd fairway bunker.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/207alms.jpg)

Will take a pause for a few days and then start another connecting hole when I get back to it- probably #10. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 03, 2018, 11:45:57 PM
I have done a lot of inspecting, measuring, and comparing to see exactly what changed when they built the cabanas/ boardwalk along the South end of the course. 

We all know that the 8th was moved inland and that the 9th tee was also moved. 

But I wasn't giving enough thought to what else shifted.  It looks like 5-10 yards was lost on the back end of the 7th green.  It is hard to tell exactly, but based on the plastacine model, the back of that green originally extended a few yards into what became that cabana structure.  The modified green did still have some space after it with that structure in, so the total reduction in the back of that green is what I've been measuring.  I am putting a lot of credibility in the plastacine model, because it aligns so perfectly with the rest of the course.  Every visible ripple in the fairways seem to be represented in the model identically.

But the most interesting change that appears to have happened when they crammed the holes inland was on the 18th green.  That picture that we were marveling at with the big humps toward the back left side was a very modified version of that green.  I believe that the original version of the green was as it was on the Plastacine model and drawings of the course. 

Version 1: 1916.  with my overlay into Google Earth, the green was 21,084 sq feet! (if it ever existed per the model and diagrams)

Version 2: 1926.  The aerial from this year is fantastic and it is clear that the green is about 11,400 sq feet.  The 9th tee has been moved off the back of the green to make room for a middle iteration of the 8th hole.  The boardwalk had not yet been built. 

Version 3: 1940 aerial.  It appears as though they added a barrier to the back of the green to protect the players on the 9th tee, which had been crammed even closer to the 18th green to make room for the final version of the 8th hole.  The 18th green in its final form was only about 7,000 sq feet.  So, that cool feature in the green that we see in the photo was definitely not CBM/Raynor, but was sort of the equivalent of what tight courses do when they install a net to protect players on a tee. 

But here is the part that I'm not sure of.  I'm posting an image below that shows the original diagram for the hole vs the final version of the hole.  Note that the cluster of 3 traps to the left of the green (from the perspective of a player hitting their approach) migrated.  So, either 1 of 2 things happened: 1) the hole was not built to the plastacine and diagrams only at the green (the rest is identical), or 2) when they crammed in the 9th tee box and borrowed from the back of the green, they moved in those bunkers to keep the same dynamic as the original version, just on a smaller scale.  As you can see, if they left them in the original location, they wouldn't serve much purpose and they would lie just at the end of the 9th tee, which would be awkward. 

Supporting that theory is one other anomaly.  That is that the middle bnker on the front right hand side of the green (from the perspective of a player hitting their approach) also ended up in a different spot than the diagram.  It looks like when they shrunk the corridor on the approach, they also moved that trap to allow an approach to bounce in... again to preserve the dynamic of the original hole, but on a smaller scale.

So, unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I'm going to assume that the original hole was built to spec and that they moved the bunkers when they shrunk the green.  If I'm wrong, then at least I am preserving MacKenzie's concept. 

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2uz4ghk.jpg)

You can see the manufactured ridge from left to right cut through the original version of the green.  That ridge separated the final usable portion of the 18th green from the 9th teeing ground. 

I am not showing the entire image of the hole diagram with the aerial, but it really does match up to the foot going all the way back to the tee.  Every single detail of the hole matches the diagram except for the ones that I point out above. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on April 04, 2018, 03:26:55 PM
Peter, my guess is that the plasticine model is not 100% accurate.  Mainly because it was made in 1915, before they finished building the course. So while it captures the major elements, it likely could not foresee exactly what ended up on the ground. 

I suspect the map produced below is more accurate.  It was made after the course opened.  So they didn't have to estimate what Lido should look like, after they finished their massive sculpting, ground moving and molding.  They could reproduce what actually was on the ground.  The differences are not much, but may be significant, in terms of actual size and precise locations...
 
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Lido%20Plan_zpse9vfjq9z.gif)
Next is an aerial of Lido, taken in 1940.  Both the photo and the map, btw, come from Sven's excellent Lido thread of a few years ago...

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Lido%201940%20Aerial_zpsqksjnpg3.jpg)

Looking at both these graphics, I think #8 originally went almost exactly where the row of cabanas sits in the aerial.  #8 green, I believe, was just to the right of the green in the aerial, again right smack in the middle of the cabanas. 

i.e. they shifted #8 over to the left, shortened it some 70 yards or so, and built cabanas where the original used to rest.  Those cabanas probably protected the entire hole against erosion and ocean damage. 

They may have moved the ninth tee a bit, but I doubt by much.  For one, the next photo, from 1933, says the 9th tee is below the photo.  It was so much in play that someone drove off it and hit another golfer on the 8th green. 

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Lido%208th%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20March%201933_zpsowquz4f6.png)

I also don't believe they moved the 7th or 18th greens.  They may have shrunk them a bit.  But again comparing the map with the aerial, they look pretty close to the same size to me, and in the same locations, too. 

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 06, 2018, 02:46:04 PM
Jim,  I'm not saying that they ever moved the 7th or 18th greens- just that they both shrunk.  I think the back of the 7th was probably damaged with the same events that took out the 8th green.  And then I think that went they put in the cabanas, they couldn't have the green go right to the edge of the buildings, so they shrunk the back and put in some rough to provide an area to chip from.  The aerials show shrinkage. 

On 18, it is extremely clear that they borrowed the back half and made it the tee for #9 and added a buffer ridge.  The 1926 aerial shows one version and the 1940 aerial shows the other.  I just can't tell if the 18th green was originally much bigger in 1916 (I'm having the same issue with the green on #1).  And I'm wondering if they shifted the bunkers inward.  The 1926 aerial seems to show that it is possible that they shifted the traps in and then let the old ones grow over (notice how the shapes parallel each other).  Also, in the 1926 version, I am viewing the grass behind the green as a sort of temporary tee for #8 and then the rest makes room for the tee shot to the interim version of the 8th hole.   
(http://i67.tinypic.com/30wurs5.jpg)


(http://i65.tinypic.com/34tbwop.jpg)
The hand drawn routing wasn't perfectly to scale and the artist behind it didn't attempt to get the shape of the tees or the greens very accurate- I've overlaid it with all of the different aerials, the plastacine map, etc.  It doesn't line up in every case with parts of the course and other landmarks that couldn't have changed (i.e. it is a drawing, not a survey).  Also, its diagrams of the greens look like they are all smaller than the actual greens, based on all sources.  However, even the drawing seems to show the relative spacing between holes and it is fairly close to the plastacine version. 

here is the southern portion of the course with plastacine vs drawing (both are fit into google Earth as overlays and unskewed to align to various landmarks).  I also show the 1940 layer a bit so that you can see where the cabana line was in relation.  You are correct in that the old 8th was right where the cabanas were.  You can also see that the 7th green would have extended all the way into the cabanas. 

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6nxfl.jpg)

I can tell that the drawing doesn't come close to capturing the magnitude of the 18th green because you can see the bunker that wraps around the back of it.  In 1926, the green hugged that bunker.  On the drawing, it does show the initial position of the trap left of the green on the approach, not the later version where they are much closer. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tommy Naccarato on April 09, 2018, 05:45:55 PM
Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!


I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)


One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.


On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.


Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.


Tommy,


My good man...so glad to see you are still showing your face around these parts.  I haven't seen you on this site since Dr. Katz was "doling out prescriptions".  And...this will probably sound like "get off my lawn" guy, but I think it is humorous that you are listed as a "Junior Member" of GCA.  Ha!  You (and me) were posting here when this site had less than ten participants.  When I came back from my first hiatus, I too was labeled with the scarlet letter of a "Junior Member".  Ran has now promoted me to a "full member".  Good grief.  I think those of us in the first 10 posters should get some sort of badge identifying us as "GCA pioneers".  And...you and I may be in the minority of those first ten to have not been kicked off.  Just sayin'...   Hope you are well my friend.


TS


Ted, Honestly, I feel old and retired from these ranks nowadays! Lol!  Hard to believe it’s been 20+ years!  But, Peter has me blown away with this build.  I wish there was more time and energy to contribute to it but I’d get nothing done!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 10, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
Before I could get myself to move on to other holes, I have been refining #8 and the areas around the clubhouse(s) to match the photos.  It's really hard to get everything perfect and I have to try to match focal length on the cameras, etc.  The final mismatches area happening because it is hard to pin down exactly where the original #8 was.  I have used the positioning off of the plastacine layout, but it is possible that the realities on the ground caused it to be a few yards either direction.  I do have the clubhouses in their exact footprints and locked in with the rest of the course.  So, you'll see a slight mismatch, but within the standard of error that I have to accept to ever get this done.  After doing this exercise, I think that the original 8th hole was probably at least 5 yards more inland than where I built it.  I could just slide the clubhouse a little more toward the shore to adjust for that. 

Here are some comparison shots.  I really like how when I tried to get the same view angle, the swale in front of the green disappeared, just like in the photos.  The 9th tee looks more elevated in my version only because I haven't built up the areas yet between the camera and that tee. 

Because of the focal length, the building on the left appears closer or even with the one on the right.  But it is really much further back.  I used a similar camera setting, so the illusion shows on my screenshot as well. 
(http://i67.tinypic.com/r1n0om.jpg)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/1ymp.jpg)

Here is a link for a video that shows the entire hole as I circle around it with a drone- it is a dropbox direct download link, which I hope is OK to do here.  It starts and ends with a camera angle similar to the photo above.  You can see how the swale becomes visible if you just elevate a little bit.  (Sorry for the choppiness). 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahgx1yc6z2xjyjd/Hole%2008_zoom%20around_trimmed.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahgx1yc6z2xjyjd/Hole%2008_zoom%20around_trimmed.mp4?dl=0)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Pallotta on April 10, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
Peter -
let me add my appreciation as well for this fascinating thread. I admire very much both your artistry and your technical know-how. And I can't stop wondering whether, 100+ years ago, CBM didn't have in his mind's eye the very 'image' that 100+ years later you're now managing to bring to life. In other words, your work suggests an 'idealized' Lido -- but perhaps it is the very ideal that CBM aimed for but that (life/the real world being what it is) he could never quite make manifest in time.
Thanks, a pleasure to follow your work
Peter
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 10, 2018, 05:30:18 PM
Well, it's tough to say.  Almost all of the images that we see of the real thing were after he was already disgusted with what it had become... "love's labor lost."  I'm attempting to replicate the 1916+ version, but the program that I use won't let me scruff it up any more than I'm doing.  i.e. the fairways and greens are going to make it look like a modern day NGLA as far as turf conditions.  So, my philosophy here is to try to build the course as if it has survived all these years and as if they didn't move any dirt, just got control of the grasses. 

One really easy part about this is the lack of trees.  With most NLE revivals, that would be a tough decision- trying to figure out how wide the architect wanted the corridors to be when they planted some saplings.

In one respect though, I'm sure that I'm not going to be as daring on the greens as they really were.  I'm teasing out various contours on certain greens by comparing all sources with different sun angles.  And even on #9, I noticed that the contours are still there.  When I align the aerial over google earth, I can see the #1 elevated and the general gist of the breaks on the green.  But in many cases, I won't have much to go on, so I'll have to use judgment based on what the template was all about and what they did at other versions of it.  But there will be quirks on these greens that are lost in time forever.  I don't want to just make them up, so I'll err toward playing it safe when in doubt. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 12, 2018, 12:58:50 PM
A little bit more progress... it's coming to life a bit:
- refined the 9th hole and the 1st hole for accuracy to 1926 aerials.  Worked a lot on the contouring and waste areas. 
- Filled in the sand in the hundreds of acres to the East of the course.  Tried to replicate the way that it looked in 1926 as you could see the circular waves in which the sand was pumped out and settled. 
- And most importantly- added the LIDO sign.  It originally said LIDO BEACH, but it's taking a lot of resources to use the little wood pieces that I used to build it and I'll run out of memory if I waste too much on this.  Just the LIDO section was 70 yards long.  And each letter was about 60 feet high.  In the 1940 aerials, the LIDO was still there and the BEACH was gone, so I feel OK about this sacrifice. 

View from the channel.  This was the purpose of the sign since it was facing that direction.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2cnfc6d.jpg)

(http://i67.tinypic.com/15znsdc.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/xdrner.jpg)

View from the approach to #1 after a big (250 yrds) drive to the left side of the fairway. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/vsdqtx.jpg)

(ignore the water to the right hand side over the clubhouse.  My plot cuts off and that would really be land there.  Can only see it from an elevated camera angle). 
(http://i67.tinypic.com/dlgdae.jpg)

I think that I should have time to actually get in a new hole before the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jimmy Muratt on April 12, 2018, 01:08:18 PM
Peter,

Stunning work, it is really fascinating watching this long lost treasure come back to life.  It's obvious how much time and effort you're putting into the course, I look forward to playing it once completed.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on April 12, 2018, 02:09:48 PM
Peter,

Stunning work, it is really fascinating watching this long lost treasure come back to life.  It's obvious how much time and effort you're putting into the course, I look forward to playing it once completed.

Peter's creating such a fascinating picture of Lido, I wish I had the resources to buy land, along a suitable stretch of water, and (re)build the course.   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 17, 2018, 03:37:29 PM
1st draft of #10 is done (Alps). 


(http://i65.tinypic.com/atpzqv.jpg)


CBM wanted the hole to play as two full wood shots.  What an intimidating approach with only a partial view of the green.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/29pulb6.jpg)


The mounding in back was described as a "circus ring".  This is the likely view after a layup or punch out. 
(http://i68.tinypic.com/149uywj.jpg)


(http://i65.tinypic.com/2n1aruc.jpg)


Looking down from the alps.  Not sure anybody would end up here, but it's a good perspective. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/260zwiu.jpg)


Looking back on the hole
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2hnxqoh.jpg)


This was a tough hole to do.  Luckily there was a very nice picture of the 10th green, otherwise I would not have guessed that the mounding was so severe or what the green looked like.  I have some more refining to do on the green, but this gets the basic shaping. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Thomas Dai on April 17, 2018, 04:01:04 PM
This is quite remarkable. The more I see the more fascinated I am. Not just with the specific course and historic research details either, which are extremely impressive in their own right, but also with other essentially visual aspects like the shadows and the sky and the clouds.
Well done Peter and many thanks for keeping us updated with progress.
Atb
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 17, 2018, 04:33:36 PM

I think that I probably made the alps too big after reviewing some alternate angles.  Lowering the mound is a very easy change.  The version that I have drafted is probably more what CBM wanted rather than what he was able to do. 


For the green, here is the real deal vs the render.  It's close, but not perfect.  The big square mound that you see on the horizon is the tee box to the Redan (16th).  And the rise to the left of that is the Knoll (13th) green complex.  The angle of the 16th tee box on mine is off, but will be corrected when I get to that hole. 




(http://i67.tinypic.com/5lscph.jpg)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/jb3ibk.jpg)



Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Rob Rigg on April 17, 2018, 07:01:09 PM
Peter - Thank you - Your Lido efforts have been amazing to follow. It looks stunning.

Even the Emperor was compelled to come out of retirement - That's saying something!

Chapeau!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on April 27, 2018, 09:28:11 AM
Great job Peter.  I like the 360 degree view of the Biarritz.  I think the third version is very realistic compared to the photos.  Looking forward to the rest of the course.


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 29, 2018, 01:52:45 PM
Had a little bit of time last night and decided to try to knock out the first draft of an easier hole.  Went with #3 since it's a par 3 and since there are several pictures of it.  This is rough draft stage.  I haven't really worked on the green yet, except for a basic pass.  I also haven't done anything with #4 or the far side of the channel, so the peripheral isn't great. 

But it is good enough to get the gist of why it was a nice hole.  The accounts of it talk about the great illusion where it would appear as though the water was directly off the back of the green, even though there is a buffer to catch shots that go over the green.  Also, this hole often played into the wind, so with the clubs of the day, the carry over the water and the water to the left added some extra spice to the Eden.  I don't think that I have read an account yet where there wasn't deemed to be one of the better holes on the course.  What strikes me about it so far is how dangerous it looks off the tee, but how much room there really is on the hole.  From the aerial, it just doesn't look nearly as menacing as from the golfer's perspective. 

(http://i65.tinypic.com/dnkhe9.jpg)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/6f741c.jpg)

Some other views:

Filtered a bit to highlight the water looming over the green
(http://i68.tinypic.com/n50th4.jpg)

(http://i67.tinypic.com/sfvw1z.jpg)

Glancing back while crossing the bridge to the 4th fairway:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/9b9o43.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 12, 2018, 11:43:20 PM
I've been pretty busy lately with actual work and that may be the case for a while. 

But I did have time over the past week off and on to get a good rough draft of #4 done.  This was surely one of the most famous holes in America at one point in time. 

So inviting to the left and so intimidating to the right.  It's tough to see here, but there is a "hankerchief" of fairway to the right that you can see between the dunes when you stand on the tee.  The fairway over there is decently broad, but you only get a little glimpse of it.  Then factor in the hickory driver and the whipping wind.  But with those caveats, even left is no sure thing. I can imagine a lot of players ended up missing the left fairway to the right in the sand and grass.  (ignored the warped teeing ground in this one).

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2s13lmc.jpg)

View of the shortcut (camera settings shortens the view here)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/98biw5.jpg)

View from the left fairway after a long drive.  Note that I haven't added the 2nd bridge yet.  It is the same style as the other. 
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2hi03fk.jpg)

3rd shot after laying up over hazard.  I have the green about 15 feet above fairway level.  Over the cross bunker, it continues to climb to the plateau green.  Missing over to the left is slightly better than over to the right (due to a bit of a drop off). 
(http://i68.tinypic.com/357pvlc.jpg)

Looking backwards from the green.  The view from up here would have been really nice.  There is a photo from the #12 green and the view looks very similar, so I'm hoping that I guess right on the amount of elevation.  There is also one photo of the #4 approach shot and I took that data into account. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/w4kcm.jpg)

Bird's eye view to give perspective.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/35085e8.jpg)

Comments are always welcome.  For this first draft, I couldn't get bogged down with perfection.  But now that it is at this stage, it is easy to make changes.


With #4, #8, and #10 drafted, I've gotten some of the hardest holes out of the way.  #12 will be the toughest one left.  So, I'm hoping that the holes don't take me quite as long going forward.  Also, the more holes that I do, the more the land gets built up and there isn't as much peripheral work to do.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on October 06, 2018, 06:32:59 PM
It's been quite a few months since the last post. I thought I would bump to see if anything is new?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 11, 2018, 11:50:36 AM
It's been quite a few months since the last post. I thought I would bump to see if anything is new?


Joel- I had to take a break due to work.  I run a consulting company and things got extremely busy over the summer.  I plan on getting back to this in another month or so. 


Whenever I complete a hole or run into questions where I want to tap into the group knowledge, I'll post again. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on October 11, 2018, 02:02:58 PM
Thanks for bringing this back up on the radar Joel.   This is the single coolest thing I have ever seen associated with golf course architecture by a LOT.   Thanks so much for sharing, Peter, and keep up the good work,.   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Hissey on October 11, 2018, 10:23:36 PM
Peter:


I'd be really interested in meeting with you to chat. Whereabouts are you located?


MH
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 16, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
I haven't done anything new, but I did have time to take some screenshots with the opposite sun angle.  It really changes the look of certain holes.  Note that these pics are larger size, so you have to scroll left to right to see them fully.  I did this to provide better resolution (they make really good screen backgrounds).

The 4th is really growing on me the more that I see of it.  I was initially a little turned off by the gimmicky premise, but it really does look very epic from ground level, especially with some backlighting. 

Some may be redundant, but here are some bonus views of the 4th with a setting sun instead of a morning sun. 

I can't wait to work on the 12th hole.  You can see the sketch of the elevated punchbowl green to the left of the 4th green complex.  They are both set up a bit on a mount/ plateau. 

(http://i68.tinypic.com/5etus0.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/a0x6h5.jpg)

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2hxnfgz.jpg)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/5f2dz4.jpg)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/2v01v7n.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 17, 2018, 01:59:33 AM
Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Phil Carlucci on October 17, 2018, 10:16:39 AM
Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0)

That is fantastic.  Can't wait to see more!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Marty Bonnar on October 18, 2018, 11:18:43 AM
Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0)


Absolutely marvellous, Peter.
Even down to the lens flaring in the sunset.
Awesome!
Cheers,
F.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 21, 2018, 03:41:55 AM
I have finally made a little more progress.  Started to build out the waste area between the #2 tee and the fairway.  It was a blind shot over ridge with a waste area in the shallow valley that bled over from the pumped sand dunes from the area east of the course.

Here is an artful description of the tee shot on the 2nd hole:

"Standing on the tee the golfer sees before him a stretch of tufted sand which will require a carry of 160 yards to clear. 

The far side of this sandy wilderness is above the level of the tee, so that he seems to be driving up hill.  With a head wind to face, this carry becomes a fearsome thing, but is only a foretaste of what the player is to find threatening him as he stands on subsequent tees. 

If there is one consolatory feature about this hazard, it is that it breaks the player gradually into the terrors awaiting him.  Perhaps he won't think so at the time and may believe that there is nothing mitigating in the stark horror of that carry, but as he proceeds over the course he may come to look back upon it as a place of peace, almost of joy."

Here is draft one of that scene from the 2nd tee:

(http://i68.tinypic.com/29fduut.jpg)

View over 1st green.  On the 2nd, the fairway slopes downhill after the waste area is cleared. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2vinu5w.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 23, 2018, 06:09:20 PM
I'm looking for some help for the 2nd hole.  This is the Plateau hole, which had a double plateau green. 

But the question is, what permutation of double plateau did it have?  There are references that they modeled the green after one of the contest entries, but I'm not sure if that entry was ever published.  If it was, please bring it to my attention. 

Here is how the plastacine looks.  Keep in mind that on the holes with photos, they seem to match the plastacine, so I'm going to default to it if that is the only info available.  The light source is coming from the top of the image. 

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2mdpdae.jpg)

Here is the best aerial of it:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/24bvwuq.jpg)

Notice how the basic structures can be seen in both, although not exactly the same.

Based on this, it looks to me like the left side of the green was one plateau and had some very minor punchbowl like rimming near the bunker and the left side of the green.  It also looks like the other plateau was front right and then there was a triangular knob that acted as a helper to hold shots on that level.  It appears as though there is a valley between the plateaus that leads to a lower back section. 

If this is true, then the closest comparison that I can think of is Fisher's Island (but imagine the back plateau in the photo shifted to the left side of the green instead.  Another similarity is the water beyond the green.) 
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7kuNQJW0AEmFcB.jpg)

In the writings about the hole, there are numerous mentions of the double plateau, but none describe the geography of it enough for me to deduce anything about it. 

I believe that the way that I'm interpreting it would make it an unusual double plateau configuration.  Maybe so unusual that I'm making a mistake? 

I'll post again separately to show my first draft of it based on this information. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on October 23, 2018, 06:36:14 PM
Here is draft #1 of the 2nd green and principal's nose bunker cluster (also unusual because of the 3rd bunker in the complex).


(http://i66.tinypic.com/2i8dmr9.jpg)


Pin in back middle (valley)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2uf3apz.jpg)


Updated aerial screenshot that shows the waste areas that I put in throughout the course to get that late teens sandy look before they let the grass take hold and crowd it out. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/33zelaq.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on October 23, 2018, 11:01:24 PM
Peter, I sure hope it’s close to what you’ve got. That back-middle hole location through the center valley looks like a ton of fun to play to.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on November 15, 2018, 04:33:44 AM
5th hole is pretty much complete. 


(http://i64.tinypic.com/bzby1.jpg)



From the tee, you want to keep you tee shot at that right edge of the fairway and knock it over the hill to get the best angle in.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/27zc2rm.jpg)


Side view of approach (I was able to get the main contours of the green off of certain aerials)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/142hi8o.jpg)


(http://i64.tinypic.com/jq6bra.jpg)


(http://i68.tinypic.com/2rw2rm8.jpg)


Will try to do the 6th hole next.

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jimmy Muratt on November 15, 2018, 08:12:31 AM
Peter,

Looking fantastic, can't wait to play the finished product.   Is this going to be available to play on The Golf Club 2019?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on November 15, 2018, 02:09:50 PM
Peter,

Looking fantastic, can't wait to play the finished product.   Is this going to be available to play on The Golf Club 2019?


It will be available to play on TGC2, TGC 2019, and the upcoming release of TGC 2019 Protee sim edition (they haven't specified their release date, but it will be out before I'm done with this).  Just a warning though for anyone interesting in playing this, the GPU requirements to play the game at reasonable settings are very high.  GTX 970 or higher I would suggest- basically a gaming computer.  I have a custom made PC connected to my sim, but I also run it off of an MSI laptop with a beefed up GPU.  If you do have a computer like that, you can also play Jim Colton's creations on Perfect Golf, which are amazing. 


For anyone in the midwest, we can arrange some live games on the sim when I'm done.  It would be really fun to play a four ball match and get to know the course from the ground level.  I'll even have a set of hickories available for those who want to get the full monty.  The cost for a round is only 1 bottle of whiskey, which is for the grounds crew. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: ChipRoyce on November 16, 2018, 06:07:51 AM
Peter - what's your TGC username? (if searching for courses you've done)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Pallotta on November 16, 2018, 06:08:13 PM
Peter - I know I've posted before, but I simply can't get over how really special this work of yours is.
Since I'm too old and/or too old fashioned to even know what TGC or sim editions refer to, let alone play them, my appreciation is purely artistic and historical (and a little bit 'metaphysical'): with great taste and talent you've brought the past into the present, and have, ex nihilo, made manifest Lido's 'spirit' once again.
Wonderful work, and work well worth doing.
Peter   
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on November 16, 2018, 06:18:22 PM
I've been strictly a Perfect Golf guy up to this point but have been thinking about checking out TGC as well. These photos have convinced me to give it a serious thought.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on November 17, 2018, 12:55:06 AM
Peter this is truly talent unfolding for all of us who are not so technologically adept.  I appreciate your passion by putting in hundreds of hours I'm sure thus far, with more on the way.  We almost should crowd fund some reward for you as GCA can appreciate this like few others could.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on November 18, 2018, 01:40:54 AM
Peter this is truly talent unfolding for all of us who are not so technologically adept.  I appreciate your passion by putting in hundreds of hours I'm sure thus far, with more on the way.  We almost should crowd fund some reward for you as GCA can appreciate this like few others could.


I only do this in my free time and I really enjoy the process of it, so it's all good.  If it weren't for this forum, I wouldn't have ever thought to do it in the first place.  And I've met some really great people so far due to this.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on December 02, 2018, 11:18:20 PM
Peter--


Do you know if the original Lido occupied any of the land used by RTJ's new (1950-ish) Lido GC that sits just east of the original?  It looks to me like the western boundary of the RTJ Lido sits alongside of where the eastern boundary of CBM's Lido was. 


Any thoughts?


Paul
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on December 03, 2018, 02:02:28 AM
Peter--


Do you know if the original Lido occupied any of the land used by RTJ's new (1950-ish) Lido GC that sits just east of the original?  It looks to me like the western boundary of the RTJ Lido sits alongside of where the eastern boundary of CBM's Lido was. 


Any thoughts?


Paul


There was no overlap between the sites. 


Here is a comparison of the old site and the RTJ course.   
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2nao8ed.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Sweeney on December 30, 2018, 04:23:14 PM
I was out at the RTJ Lido today playing the "new Lido", and I thought I would pull this back up. Here is the new clubhouse with the green awning. The old beachfront of the course is roughly where the pink condos are located in the distance:


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LDALl0t8GpI/XCk0tGJ4I5I/AAAAAAAAYgM/Snl9jXIHOt8DcSoDoO6RLBkuynRUp2YcACL0BGAs/w1060-d-h796-n/q5mm%252B2ULR%252BiLLztx%2525Y2HWA.jpg)

They use the original date of "1914" in the RTJ Lido signage:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KteD4w4vlPY/XCk026DhjgI/AAAAAAAAYgg/aumac_t1e1wvBku-id10tAbiEiaJSQawgCL0BGAs/w1060-d-h1414-n/3uUwxca6TimpKGiiseMAXw.jpg)

RTJ did use the channels on the bay side in a few spots:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hTLF_H5OUOA/XCk2fVj399I/AAAAAAAAYhw/TkxuM_84SRQIp7oVJ2LjzXMIwdfZVOEgACL0BGAs/w1060-d-h796-n/tevTsIZ%2525Rq6hSL%252Bm1%2525JK5w.jpg)

Surfers out on the water in front of the original Lido GC:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-im3HIVFyWiU/XCk09I3PCpI/AAAAAAAAYg4/yCSrUfXHMfM97OqZHVyNJ5oJ0WsKo5xeQCL0BGAs/w1060-d-h796-n/Jl4D2N3oRVm1mdaKoJonVw.jpg)

Great thread.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Paul Rudovsky on December 30, 2018, 05:00:15 PM
Mike--


I am virtually sure that the "pink condos" building is structurally from the clubhouse/hotel that was finished about 10-12 years after the course.  The club took out a mortgage to build it and after The Depression hit, the club deflated on the mortgage and was insolvent.  If you go to google maps and look, the "footprint" of the condo building is in the same location as the clubhouse/hotel an d has the same shape/footprint...4 wings extending out for a central lobby


Best
Paul
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sean_A on December 30, 2018, 06:30:06 PM
It is my understanding that huge building was the "clubhouse", though it is very obvious it was more than a clubhouse. Nevermind the house...look at the green!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4251/34871133112_3c66b61e6f_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4251/34871133112_3c66b61e6f_b.jpg)

Happy New Year
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 05, 2019, 02:30:55 AM
Peter how is it going?  Are you done with the 6th hole? I have developed a real love for this project as I never knew of Lido until this thread started so recreating what was once the best in spectacular VR is really special to many of us.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on January 06, 2019, 01:10:00 AM
Peter how is it going?  Are you done with the 6th hole? I have developed a real love for this project as I never knew of Lido until this thread started so recreating what was once the best in spectacular VR is really special to many of us.


Jeff- I haven't done the 6th hole yet.  One of my young sons sustained a really serious eye injury that required 4 operations to repair over a short period of time.  So, all attention was diverted.  But he's in the last phase of his recovery (and doing amazingly well), so I'll be back at it relatively soon. 


Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 06, 2019, 01:51:59 AM
Peter how is it going?  Are you done with the 6th hole? I have developed a real love for this project as I never knew of Lido until this thread started so recreating what was once the best in spectacular VR is really special to many of us.


Jeff- I haven't done the 6th hole yet.  One of my young sons sustained a really serious eye injury that required 4 operations to repair over a short period of time.  So, all attention was diverted.  But he's in the last phase of his recovery (and doing amazingly well), so I'll be back at it relatively soon.

Peter you have your priorities right.  Lido has been gone since WWII so we can wait a while longer.  I hope your son recovers well.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ira Fishman on January 06, 2019, 08:44:18 AM
+1000%
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Phil Carlucci on January 06, 2019, 09:32:04 PM
Mike--


I am virtually sure that the "pink condos" building is structurally from the clubhouse/hotel that was finished about 10-12 years after the course.  The club took out a mortgage to build it and after The Depression hit, the club deflated on the mortgage and was insolvent.  If you go to google maps and look, the "footprint" of the condo building is in the same location as the clubhouse/hotel an d has the same shape/footprint...4 wings extending out for a central lobby


Best
Paul
It is the same building.
Peter, all the best to your son.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on January 09, 2019, 06:22:21 PM
Home sick today.  Killed some time by knocking out the 6th hole (Raynor's Prize Dogleg).  I had one really decent photo from just short of the fairway that shows the fairway bunkers on the right, which are elevated and tilted.  There is a ridge in the fairway past those traps that either kicks the ball safely left and probably made it a 3 shot hole or it could kick the ball to the right for a bit of a short cut.  However, there are some nice green side bunkers that make it difficult to easily put the 2nd shot on the green from this shortcut angle. 


Also, based on some overhead zoom ins, it looks like there was actually some bush clusters in the wasteland that cuts across the fairway short of the green and also a wall of some sort behind the green (I'm assuming to protect the road).  So, I tried to add these quirks.  Here are some pics.


This is a foreshortened view from in front of the tee and elevated so that you can see the tee shot options.  Hit over the traps to the right to get a go at the green in 2.  I accidently connected the right 2 traps and need to touch it up later. 


(http://i66.tinypic.com/b5nm83.jpg)


View from where a safe tee shot would land.  This player would probably aim at the alps in the distance and leave it short of the cross waste area.  The line to the green is right at the right edge of the clubhouse. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/qzqko8.jpg)


Here is the view from that same player's perspective on the 3rd shot.  Green is slightly elevated and there is a gentle fall off to the left. 
(http://i66.tinypic.com/dy3s40.jpg)


And a better view of the green and the surrounding areas
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2utkcuq.jpg)







Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on January 11, 2019, 01:42:50 AM
7th hole is now complete, so that makes 1-10 done.  I have 18 about 50% done because I had to contour most of it in parallel with 7.


For 7, this is the Hog's back.  The drive is over the road, then the waste area and finally a perpendicular set of 4 deep bunkers, which are mainly for intimidation it seems.  After that, there is a long hogs back that runs down the fairway and pushes short tee shots to the right towards the sandy dunes that border the fairway and longer ones to the left toward a bunker.  It has an uphil feel to it like the 5th at NGLA.  After that, the ravine has to be cleared on the 2nd shot and then it is slightly uphill again to the green, which has a deep bunker to the left with a lot of gravity. 


Here are some pics:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/20f3yhu.jpg)


From the hotel:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/121r40n.jpg)


(http://i68.tinypic.com/x3h3px.jpg)


(http://i68.tinypic.com/30lgxte.jpg)


(http://i68.tinypic.com/p2des.jpg)

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on January 11, 2019, 03:57:06 AM
Love this software.  It kind of reminds me of Saadiyat Beach Club in Abu Dhabi, a Gary Player design. 

BTW is the prevailing wind from the northwest? 

I found this info from weather.com  https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/USNY1899:1:US
This will help imagine how difficult some shots are.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on January 11, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
I'm not from the area, but my impression from all the reading about this was that the wind really made the course infinitely interesting and that it could come from all directions.  There are accounts of having to play the ball over the Atlantic ocean on the 8th hole because of the wind. 


And yes, this course was extremely difficult with the equipment at the time.  Ted Ray reportedly played well and shot an 82- and then declared it to be his favorite American course.  There is a writing about the 6th hole.  The author thought that it would be a better hole if it were shortened by 30 yards and if the 2nd shot were cleared out so that the player could have a view to the green.  The way that the hole was built, you only could see the top of the flag on the 2nd shot and it appeared as if you were just hitting your ball into a see of sandy hills and rushes.  And then layer a whipping wind on that and consider that you'd be trying to pick a brassie or spoon off of a sandy lie. 


I'll post a 10-hole digital play through later to give you a feel for the struggles of an actual round. 


There are lots of things that I'll want to tweak once I get all the holes built to this current level.  There are certain details that I'm unsure about and will want to get opinions. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jim Nugent on May 14, 2019, 07:52:52 PM
I just caught the tail end of special on the Golf Channel, about Lido.  Two guys were walking the site, explaining a bit of the history, pointing out where various holes were located.  Also, they showed computer graphic representations of the holes -- graphics that looked an awful lot like the ones Peter did.  Peter, if you see this, do you know anything about it, and if so, i wonder if they got the idea for the show from your work and this thread?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 14, 2019, 11:55:32 PM
I just caught the tail end of special on the Golf Channel, about Lido.  Two guys were walking the site, explaining a bit of the history, pointing out where various holes were located.  Also, they showed computer graphic representations of the holes -- graphics that looked an awful lot like the ones Peter did.  Peter, if you see this, do you know anything about it, and if so, i wonder if they got the idea for the show from your work and this thread?


Yeah, I shared the images and flyovers to help give the piece some color.  Connor was the one that worked with them and he suggested that they incorporate some of these renderings.  I hustled up and completed a lot of the peripheral areas and the 18th hole so that it could be shown. 


Now that it has been aired, I'll post more of the progress... maybe tomorrow if I have time.  I think that the 18th hole turned out really good and I have a much better perspective of why it was considered to be such a great hole after seeing it from all angles. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Pat Burke on May 15, 2019, 03:03:32 AM
I just caught the tail end of special on the Golf Channel, about Lido.  Two guys were walking the site, explaining a bit of the history, pointing out where various holes were located.  Also, they showed computer graphic representations of the holes -- graphics that looked an awful lot like the ones Peter did.  Peter, if you see this, do you know anything about it, and if so, i wonder if they got the idea for the show from your work and this thread?


Yeah, I shared the images and flyovers to help give the piece some color.  Connor was the one that worked with them and he suggested that they incorporate some of these renderings.  I hustled up and completed a lot of the peripheral areas and the 18th hole so that it could be shown. 


Now that it has been aired, I'll post more of the progress... maybe tomorrow if I have time.  I think that the 18th hole turned out really good and I have a much better perspective of why it was considered to be such a great hole after seeing it from all angles.


Peter, this is really pretty amazing.  Was catching up on this thread.
I hope your son is doing well!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 15, 2019, 07:00:36 AM
Peter,


Just adding this to the original thread: https://www.golfchannel.com/video/2019-pga-championship-lido-golf-club-lost-golf-treasure


That was a cool piece to watch and if nothing else, your work is inspiring others to think differently.


45 degrees, sunny and drying out for Bethpage 2019...
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on May 15, 2019, 07:07:42 AM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Marty Bonnar on May 15, 2019, 02:08:58 PM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work.


They might at least have given him a Credit!
‘Artist Rendition’...


F.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Cal Seifert on May 15, 2019, 02:24:58 PM
What game is this playable on? The golf club? This was the most interesting thing I've seen on golf channel in quite some time.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Dean DiBerardino on May 15, 2019, 04:24:19 PM
This thread as well as the segment on Golf Channel are great and Peter’s 3D digital models are fantastic.

It would be great if Golf Channel would continue do similar segments. Imagine a segment this August during the U.S. Amateur at Pinehurst No. 2 about Overhills featuring Peter’s work as well as Chris Buie’s!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on May 15, 2019, 04:38:40 PM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work.


They might at least have given him a Credit!
‘Artist Rendition’...



I was thinking the same thing but hopefully he was paid and then it's not required?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 15, 2019, 11:35:14 PM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work.


They might at least have given him a Credit!
‘Artist Rendition’...



I was thinking the same thing but hopefully he was paid and then it's not required?


I didn't want to get paid and I preferred that they didn't use my name.  I just think that it is really cool that they packaged the story in a way that was interesting for their audience.  We are biased here I'm sure, but I also think that they should regularly do much more historical and architectural pieces. 


I would love to watch replays of past championships with narrations and interviews to give it context.  Also, there are so many interesting stories about lost courses, course evolution, and the golden age architects.  They could just pick a character from the past and do a 30 minute history lesson on them and I think that a lot of people would be interested. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on May 16, 2019, 02:38:19 PM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work.


They might at least have given him a Credit!
‘Artist Rendition’...



I was thinking the same thing but hopefully he was paid and then it's not required?


I didn't want to get paid and I preferred that they didn't use my name.  I just think that it is really cool that they packaged the story in a way that was interesting for their audience.  We are biased here I'm sure, but I also think that they should regularly do much more historical and architectural pieces. 


I would love to watch replays of past championships with narrations and interviews to give it context.  Also, there are so many interesting stories about lost courses, course evolution, and the golden age architects.  They could just pick a character from the past and do a 30 minute history lesson on them and I think that a lot of people would be interested.


I'm always surprised with these niche cable networks that evolve fully toward the lowest common denominator. I understand that with the current TV landscape they need to go in that direction, but you'd think it'd be even better business to have one or two shows dedicated to more nuanced topics, if only to keep the other end of the audience spectrum checking back in on occasion. When your most sophisticated regularly-scheduled show is Feherty, you're in trouble.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Marty Bonnar on May 16, 2019, 03:47:13 PM
As always, can't thank Peter enough for doing this amazing work.


They might at least have given him a Credit!
‘Artist Rendition’...



I was thinking the same thing but hopefully he was paid and then it's not required?


I didn't want to get paid and I preferred that they didn't use my name.  I just think that it is really cool that they packaged the story in a way that was interesting for their audience.  We are biased here I'm sure, but I also think that they should regularly do much more historical and architectural pieces. 


I would love to watch replays of past championships with narrations and interviews to give it context.  Also, there are so many interesting stories about lost courses, course evolution, and the golden age architects.  They could just pick a character from the past and do a 30 minute history lesson on them and I think that a lot of people would be interested.


Cool, Peter,
Your work on it is just bloody marvellous. Lido must have been an incredible experience and short of any colour images, your visualisations are the next best thing.
Thanks again for the work.
Now I'd like to talk to you about Ferryhills..........
 ;)
F.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on May 16, 2019, 10:42:51 PM
Peter.


Are you able to work on any new holes from Lido?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 17, 2019, 12:49:40 AM
Here are some photos to catch up with my progress.

First of all, the 18th hole.  The great photo of the 18th hole shows it after a big part of the green was removed to make room for the 9th tee after the cabanas were put in and the 8th hole was squeezed over. 

I'm trying to recreate the original green.  However, I don't have great data on the actual contours.  For right now, I modeled it after Mackenzie's entry and the plastacine models.  My version is still extreme, but doesn't have the 7 foot+ tiers like in the contest entry.  I just think that CBM must have dampened them down to fit in with the rest of the course's style.   

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2lnygqp.jpg)
This is from the teeing ground.  The left fairway is very welcoming.  The right one is barely visable to the golfer's eye level.  The middle fairway is blind and would have been a daring carry because of the way that it is narrow if you barely carry and then expanded from there.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2a8rayd.jpg)
From this elevated angle over the road, it is much easier to see the propositions.  If you go left, it pretty much turns it into a par 5.  If you go right, you have a really difficult angle to the green, which I'll show.  And if you pull off the big carry over the middle, your approach is still difficult, but it is right up the gut and would allow you to bounce a shot on.  The prevailing breeze would have been right into your face.  In addition to the basic strategy that I just outlined, even strong players would have to shift their strategy depending on the wind and I would suppose the pin placement too. 

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2lkdxn5.jpg)
This is your reward for pulling off the hero shot to the middle fairway.  Probably a driving iron, mid iron, or some sort of spoon/ bulldog left.  You can bounce it on, but missing left, right, or long is trouble. 

(http://i67.tinypic.com/2e5ihbd.jpg)
Here is the problem with going to the right hand fairway off the tee.  This image is zoomed way closer to the hole than you'd actually be- just doing it so that you can see the detail.  Also, this pin is the most friendly pin from the right.  If the pin were back or right, you couldn't get at it.  I would think that most people who went right would have had to try to position their next shot short of the green and then tried to get up and down for par.  This is a true 4/5 half par hole with significant risk of disaster.  CBM discussed what a good closer this would be in match play and said something like- there is no better hole in the world to give the man who is one down a chance to tie it up. 

(http://i63.tinypic.com/3167ls6.jpg)
Here is a decent look at how I shaped the green as a placeholder- using the Mackenzie entry and the plastacine models as my main sources.  This view is from behind the green with the 9th tee in the foreground.   If I can get better info, I can adapt it. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 17, 2019, 01:04:48 AM
Here are the latest 2 aerials from the north and the south to show the current state of progress:

I have the housing development mid progress as it was in 1926.  I'm also starting to put in paths in the waste areas and that is increasing the level of realism from the ground level perspective. 

(http://i65.tinypic.com/t687dv.jpg)


(http://i67.tinypic.com/znx6pf.jpg)


This is such a beautiful jigsaw puzzle that CBM put together.  The way that bunkers act as double hazards and the way that the contours from one green complex affects the views from other teeing grounds is pretty amazing.  I really like the way that the Redan 16th and the Short 14th green complexes provide big shoulders for the 12th hole (Lagoon) on the outside of the dogleg.  We'll get to the 12th and I'll show the work in progress, but based on what I'm seeing, that would have to be the number one handicap hole.  The carry over water is incredibly daunting and the approach is one of the most difficult on the course.  The articles talk about players have driving irons for their approaches (basically a 1 iron).  In the lower aerial, it is the hole across the lagoon from the 4th hole (which runs along the bottom).  The back tee for it is pinched between the water and the 11th green and the 12th green is the one just above the 4th green. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 17, 2019, 01:21:25 AM
12th hole (sneak preview):

The only think that I've done on this hole so far is to do a basic sculpting of the green complex and the punchbowl green.  This isn't as extreme as the punchbowl at Streamsong Black, but it is still very dramatic. 

After a huge heroic water carry where you bite off as much as you dare, you're still left with a very long approach.  You have to carry a mean set of cross bunkers well short of the green and then let your ball run over the front slope and into the punchbowl. 

Even thought I haven't sculpted the fairway at all, here is sort of what it looks like on the approach... except back up about 100 more yards and imagine the view from ground level:  Notice that only a fraction of the flagstick is visible, even from this elevated camera angle. 
(http://i63.tinypic.com/sypbgg.jpg)


This punchbowl also had a bit of the circus rink embankment like the 10th hole.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/nxies.jpg)


Here is the actual view from behind the green.  That water in the left side of the picture is what has to be carried off of the tee.  Just an extremely difficult golf hole in every respect.  Built for adventurous and sporting fellows!
(http://i64.tinypic.com/ztj4nb.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on May 17, 2019, 01:36:24 AM
Sneak preview of the 13th (Knoll):

Relatively short hole with an extremely elevated green.  I'm not happy with the bunkers just yet.  They are the right shape, but they need to be more elevated into the face of the knoll and not so much at ground level.  CBM made the fairway very bumpy to make the short and blind pitch more difficult. 
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2vv8ej8.jpg)


There was some sort of pronounced walkway or ramp from the green to the elevated 14th tee.  For now, I have steps.  This middle part of the back nine is a bit of a blind spot from a historical photo standpoint.  And the angled aerials are better around the perimeter.  To get this more accurate, I believe that I need to have a softer plateau (not quite so Pete Dye like) and adjust the bunkers to a higher level in the face. 
(http://i67.tinypic.com/24y8q42.jpg)


That's it for now.  The holes that I haven't finished are sort of in this state with rough elevation outlines.  I need to refine them a lot, which takes time.  But getting closer. 


I'm really looking forward to #17 because there are some nice photos of it. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Thomas Dai on May 17, 2019, 03:04:13 AM
Peter,
What you have produced so far is quite remarkable. A big "well done".
I imagine that one day this work will find its way into indoor golf simulator mode and I look forward to 'playing it' when it does.[size=78%] [/size]
atb
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Churchill on May 17, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Congratulations for your artistry being featured on the Golf Channel review of the history of the Lido.
I look forward to each rendering of Charles Blair Macdonald's legendary masterpiece presented here.
Many a cold winter's night was spent imagining my feeble attempts to play this Atlantis of golf's fabled past.

I sorely wish some very rich 1 percenter would find a seaside enclave and restore the vision of perfection that was once the Lido.

Thanks Peter
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Sweeney on May 18, 2019, 05:10:20 AM
I imagine that one day this work will find its way into indoor golf simulator mode and I look forward to 'playing it' when it does.


I have never had any interest in "playing" golf on any simulated course, just would rather play real golf. With Peter's work here on Lido, I would absolutely love to play Lido!! Thanks Peter.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 04, 2019, 08:17:40 PM

Sorry, this isn't an update on the course, but just something interesting.  I got 2 clubs that someone on Long Island had in their basement. 

I'm assuming that these were actually used to play the course at one point in time. 

It is a mashie (this one has about a 7 iron loft) and a putter with a nice flange.  Both are completely playable and will be in the bag for the first 18 hole sim play through after construction has completed.   

(https://i.imgur.com/GzWzH8y.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Joel_Stewart on September 16, 2019, 11:11:21 PM
Is there a reason why all the photos have been deleted?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 17, 2019, 06:59:43 PM
Yeah.  TinyPic shut down.  I picked the wrong one I guess. 


Fortunately, I have all of them locally.  At some point, I'll do a front nine tour in an organized way. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 18, 2020, 01:57:23 AM
Deleted due to technical issues with photo sharing... reposted subsequently.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on April 18, 2020, 03:19:07 AM
Great work Peter, however I'm unable to view the photos on my desktop or mobile.  May want to look into that.
Thanks again for the work.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Bodo on April 18, 2020, 11:12:27 AM
Great work Peter, however I'm unable to view the photos on my desktop or mobile.  May want to look into that.
Thanks again for the work.
Yep. Not only are your recent photos not rendering, but all of your old images are gone as well. You need to find a different photo hosting service and relink the images. I dropped Photobucket recently due to this same problem and switched to a free account on Flickr and now I'm back in business.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Cal Seifert on April 18, 2020, 11:15:04 AM
Will this course be playable on the Golf Club 2019 when its finished?  If so, can't wait.  Great work.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 18, 2020, 02:48:16 PM
Taking a mulligan.  It's very strange because I can see the last set of images that I posted here.  The old ones were all tinypic and got nuked when they went from free to charging.

I'll post smaller images here for those viewing with a phone and to eliminate scrolling issues

15th- Strategy
(https://i.imgur.com/XsZH38t.jpg)

Looking down the 17th- Long.
(https://i.imgur.com/oVHT0nv.jpg)

Some angled aerial views from different angles: Low sun angle so that the contours show up better with shadowing

In this one, you can see the 7th and 8th with the 18th green in between them
(https://i.imgur.com/XBqq7JK.jpg)

5th hole on the right side playing away from you- Knoll to the left of that
(https://i.imgur.com/faPu49r.jpg)

Eden in the foreground. Half baked 11th can be seen over the bridge and to the right.  That is the last hole that I need to complete.  That green is flat in this pic, but it looks like it might be one of the coolest greens on the course. 
(https://i.imgur.com/nCk0Av7.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 18, 2020, 03:00:36 PM
Will this course be playable on the Golf Club 2019 when its finished?  If so, can't wait.  Great work.

Yes- playable on PS4, Xbox, gaming PC, and any simulator that can run TheGolfClub 2019 (through Protee).  I have played it many times on my PC already to test the holes, but I'm holding off playing on my simulator until it is 100% finished.  When I do that, I can record it and share.  It's a very strange phenomenon to get to know a lost course through virtual play.  This one is especially easy to get a feel for because of the templates and because of how the holes interlock with each other.  Also, you can always see other holes in the distance without any trees. 

And the way that the routing works, you do a big counter clockwise circle around the outside of the course on the first loop, so you're just going around a race track.  The 2nd nine also does that for a while, but one notch inland until you finally switch back on the 14th.  This parallel action is neat how the front nine holes interact with their counterparts on the back nine. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: MCirba on April 18, 2020, 03:05:44 PM
Peter,
 
This is astounding work.  Thanks for your time and for sharing with us.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Nick Ackland on April 18, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
This is incredible, what a massive achievement!


I cannot wait to play a round on TGC2019!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Alex Miller on April 18, 2020, 10:40:41 PM
What is the name of the course? Excited as well - this thread is paying off more than I ever thought it would thanks to lack of actual golf in our lives.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 19, 2020, 12:04:34 AM
What is the name of the course? Excited as well - this thread is paying off more than I ever thought it would thanks to lack of actual golf in our lives.

I haven't published it yet.  Will complete the 11th and then will publish a test version so that anyone here can do a play through and give feedback.  I have never really been in a hurry to finish it because it is so fun working on it and there is always more refinement than can be done. 

One other thing that I find really interesting is how wild the course looked in the early days and how it became less so over time.  It didn't actually look anything like what I think of as a CBM/ Raynor due to the fuzziness.  By 1940, it looked more like what we're used to their courses looking like.  You obviously see the same thing with Augusta, Pebble, Pine Valley, and most other courses too.  But this was really a beast when it was constructed.  It was long and brutally difficult.  It was hard to find your ball in the sand, the long grass was punishing, and the sand was soft so that the ball would sit down in it.  In the version that I've built, I've tried to tie it to the shape that it was in by the 1920s.  That was the earliest point in time in which the good aerials started to be taken. 

Here are a few images that I de-oldified to give a feel for it. 

This was in a tournament on the 8th hole and he supposedly played this shot off of a piece of a shipwreck (had to have been staged though- looks like a pose and he is hitting parallel with the water)
(https://i.imgur.com/ljOd9Zx.jpg)

On a windy day, even the best players were likely to have to execute the recovery blast from time to time.  From what I've read, you were lucky to even get back to the fairway on these and there was really no hope of going for the green. 
(https://i.imgur.com/Fgitrsz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bJ9RHgl.jpg)

Not that it matters, but my best guess is that this is on the 6th hole, judging by the telephone poles that ran along the road.  And it was a par 5, so this guy probably sliced his driver.
(https://i.imgur.com/CkVO6z4.jpg)

In case you can't read the caption:  It's Gene Sarazen in the Metropolitan Open teeing off on the 11th.
(https://i.imgur.com/xhZZ40p.jpg)


Here is a passage from an American Golfer article in 1920 regarding the waste areas there:
"In addition to the water hazards, there is the loose sand of the fairway and the countless bents.  These latter push their roots deep into the sand and are as tenacious as a bulldog in their holding power.  when your ball nestles among them, it requires all your skill and a very tight grip of your niblick to enable you to get clear of them.  They are however, a splendid form of hazard.  These bents or rushes grow a few inches apart, and when your ball stops in the light colored sand, in which they flourish, it is a matter of considerable difficulty to locate the ball.  An eagle eyed caddie will prove an asset of great value to you.  it would be a strange innovation to paint the golf balls a bright orange color, but they would show up splendidly in the whitish sand." 


And here is the counterpoint from a British perspective (J.S. Worthington).  After he lauds it, he adds this:
"Really I have only one criticism and I will get it over at once-- I do think that the rough is in a good many places too thick.  Not only is it tiresome to have to hunt for a ball but it is a little monotonous to play always niblick shots when you fin it.  In England, where we are, I suppose, a softer run of golfers, we have generally a kind of purgatory for the moderately sinful player while the genuinely infernal regions are reserved for the outrageous hook or slice.  Out of the purgatory a player who has skill and some fortune may be able to play a forcing mashie or iron shot and so lose something indeed but not a whole stroke.  In Lido rough, an error of but a few feet, nay inches generally mean digging the ball out with a niblick and then my best can do no more.  This is, I think, too severe for pleasure and perhaps for justice as well."



Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mike Bodo on April 19, 2020, 09:30:43 AM


Peter, thanks for all the work you've put into to recreating Lido for the TGC 2019 game. I've been following this thread since the beginning and have loved it! I am disappointed we no longer have images of the work done on holes 1 - 14 to provide a comprehensive view of the course. I would, however, ask that if you could repost those images and combine them with holes 15 - 18 and the overhead views in a single post in this thread so that the course can be viewed in its entirety, that would greatly appreciated - especially for us non-gamers who likely will never play this on any of the aforementioned gaming platforms.


On a separate note, I found this excerpt from the 1920's American Golfer article of particular interest given the debate we are having in a separate discussion group topic regarding the presence of rough, rough length and uniformity.

"Really I have only one criticism and I will get it over at once-- I do think that the rough is in a good many places too thick.  Not only is it tiresome to have to hunt for a ball but it is a little monotonous to play always niblick shots when you find it. In England, where we are, I suppose, a softer run of golfers, we have generally a kind of purgatory for the moderately sinful player while the genuinely infernal regions are reserved for the outrageous hook or slice.  Out of the purgatory a player who has skill and some fortune may be able to play a forcing mashie or iron shot and so lose something indeed but not a whole stroke.  In Lido rough, an error of but a few feet, nay inches generally mean digging the ball out with a niblick and then my best can do no more.  This is, I think, too severe for pleasure and perhaps for justice as well."
Granted, they were operating with a completely different set of tools in 1920 vs. the clubs of today, however the design principals referenced are just as applicable today as they were then.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tal Oz on April 19, 2020, 02:46:55 PM
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.


@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on April 19, 2020, 08:13:31 PM
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.

@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.

That is what has made it take so long to do.  If I could have used lidar, this would have taken me a couple of weeks.

With the contours and elevations on this, the easiest way to explain it is that I'm triangulating all available information.  It's amazing how much can be figured out by keeping a good database of information and constantly crosschecking.  But there are still blind spots, especially when it comes down to subtle contours on greens. 

On the 3rd green for example, it's extremely useful to have this.  I probably would have pitched it more back to front if this photo didn't exist (the back of the green is to the right in the pic).  Imagine seeing this and then having to make a replica out of clay.  That is basically what I'm doing.  It'll be close, but never perfect. 
(https://i.imgur.com/rdPASHa.jpg)

On the 8th, I think that I would have built this green very close even without this pic based on more macro info (check out how much the salt water spray was killing that green):
(https://i.imgur.com/F80eyYS.jpg)

For the 10th, there is this one.  That's a puddle in the bunker by the way.  The green contours aren't easy to make out, but you get the idea of it.  However, the key is that it tells me the height of the circus ring and the bunker depths.  Once I know that, I can compare relative lengths of shadows in other aerials and so on.  This is partly how I got the right basic height for the LIDO sign. 
(https://i.imgur.com/xkPSQfE.jpg)

On the 12th, you get this fantastic image that shows how dramatic the punchbowl was:
(https://i.imgur.com/6jXtKGi.jpg)

I'm doing the course without this hole, the 3rd version of the 8th.  However, if I did have to build this hole and didn't have this photo, there is no way in hell that I would have made it right.  It would be hard enough even having that pic.  In the future I'll put out a version with this as the 8th and will try to construct the boardwalk.  This is actually the first image that I ever saw of Lido and it is part of what attracted me to it.  What a great bye hole this would be to settle bets- sort of like the bye hole at Erin Hills, now the 9th. 
(https://i.imgur.com/g1GqQ1s.jpg)

In areas where I have a total absence of photographic info, I have to rely on zoomed in details of aerials, what the plastacine models were saying, what the Vanity Fair topo sketch looked like, and written accounts.  The green of the 11th is the perfect example of a blindspot of this nature. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tal Oz on April 20, 2020, 12:30:20 AM
Incredible work Peter and I can't wait to 'play a round' on it once it's complete. What a truly daunting course this would have been to play back in the day.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bill Seitz on April 20, 2020, 12:50:40 PM
@Mike, that quote perked up for me as well.


@Peter, I was thinking of bumping this thread since just two weeks ago I installed a copy of TGC2019 and have been exploring numerous courses that have been published. Quite a few are incredibly accurate thanks in part to Lidar data: Chicago, Deal, LACC, Cypress, St Georges (NY). I'm eagerly awaiting a finished Lido. A question for you as obviously the elevation data everywhere and particularly the greens doesn't exist anymore, how did you build all of that out? Was it by aerials, old photos, and articles? Apologies if this has been fully covered in the thread before, I didn't find it.


There is a very accurate rendition of Kingsley available for play.  Having played the real thing about a hundred times, the most recent update is very faithful.  It's so good that when I play a shot on a given hole, I set up to play it how I would in real life based on the green contours that I know from actual real life plays, like certain shots into the first green for example.  It's also nice to never lose a ball left of #2.  I don't think it's Lidar, though.  Can't recall.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: SB on April 20, 2020, 05:57:37 PM
Please get it up on TGC!!! ;D
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Neil_Crafter on April 27, 2020, 02:40:29 AM
Hi Peter
Great job. I'm especially interested in the 18th given it was built as a version of Dr MacKenzie's Country Life prizewinning hole. Do you have any views of the 18th that you can generate as I'd love to share them on my Dr Mackenzie Facebook page (with appropriate credit) and as an accompaniment to my entry on the Lido hole in my Courses of Dr MacKenzie book that I'm working on. If you want to email me you can at neil@golfstrategies.com.au
cheers Neil
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: V_Halyard on April 27, 2020, 01:23:16 PM
Fantastic. Looking forward to your TGC 2019.  Please flag when you load it up!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff_Lewis on May 01, 2020, 04:41:59 PM
I am going to repeat myself.  This is the coolest thing I have ever seen. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on June 05, 2020, 01:53:49 AM
I have a long shot theory/ hopeful hunch and want to see if anyone can help me out with it. 

Background:
- We know that Charles Mayo extensively photographed the course before it was scraped.
- According to G Bahto previously in the 'did Lido jump the shark' thread, "I've also spoken at length with a person whose father actually owned Lido at two different times- once during its major demise and then again when he purchased from the Government after the war.  This persons father actually was the one who hired RTJ to build the present Lido course."
- RTJ incorporated some attributes of the original course into his version of it, although very poorly. 

So... is it possible that the Mayo photos of Lido were passed on to RTJ as reference materials?  I believe that RTJ would have only been 17 or so when the original course closed and he was around 30 when he got the commission for his version.  So it seems likely that he wouldn't have had a great memory of the original and would have needed some background information. 

I see that the Robert Trent Jones papers (1924-2003) are kept in the Cornell University library. 

Collection #6855

Here are all of the specific places in the collection that appear relevant-

Box/ Folders/ Topic
150/ 15-17/ Lido Beach
108/ 6/ Lido Golf Course
30/ 84/ Lido Golf Club, NY
175/ 48/ Lido
Tube 333/ Lido Beach Long Island- Lido Golf Club
Tube 511/ Long Beach, New York- Lido Golf Course

Has anyone here ever accessed the RTJ papers? 
If not, do we have anyone near Cornell who could make an appointment and inspect this information?  Assuming they open back up at some point from the Covid closure. 

Best case would be that we hit the jackpot.  But if not, there might still be some interesting information there that would give us a glimpse of what RTJ's mandate was and what his thought process was in the 2nd Lido course's design.  There also could be other information on the original Lido that isn't in circulation. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Sven Nilsen on June 06, 2020, 12:14:51 AM
Those ages for RTJ don't seem quite right.  Are you thinking about RTJ Jr.?
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on June 06, 2020, 12:24:44 AM
I'll test it too Peter.

There's so much on TGC that looks amazing but isn't very good golf design. I think this could be one of the top five in the game.

I find the designer somewhat clumsy and unwieldy, at least compared to Perfect Golf, and I also find it very hard to produce something unique with the very limited amount of textures and backdrops available. So I'm already impressed as hell without seeing it in game because you've managed to pull both of those things off pretty well based on these pictures.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on June 06, 2020, 12:39:58 AM
Those ages for RTJ don't seem quite right.  Are you thinking about RTJ Jr.?

I wasn't, but you're right about the ages.  The Cornell library just labeled his papers those dates and I was thinking that was his lifespan.  But that span must just refer to the earliest dated to the latest dated papers.  His life was 1906 to 2000, so he very well could have had extensive knowledge of the original Lido. 

Since he was a great player and in the area, he probably even played it multiple times.  I wonder if he ever played in the Metropolitan Am. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on June 15, 2020, 12:49:49 AM
I'm working to try to finish the final hole of the rendering, which is the 11th.  After that, I will go back over the entire course to double check all of the contours again, especially the greens.  Getting close!

For the 11th green, it is unlike anything that I've ever seen.  First of all, it is massive.  The front half of it looks like it is flat, but slightly sunken in like a 'punch tray' and there is round knob right in the middle of it that would feed shots left or right.  That would make for a very interesting green in itself.  But then there is a spine that separates the front half from the back half, like an inverse biarritz.  The back is probably banked to hold shots, but there is no back bowl and it falls rather steeply off if you roll it through (I can clearly see the drop off in other aerials). 

I want to try to get it right, but one problem is that in the 1926 aerial, the green isn't this big.  It appears as though they either deviated from the plans when they built it or they may have narrowed it later to protect the 2nd green and the 12th tee box from approach shots.  Also, the features in the aerial are very faint, so it isn't clear whether it ended up being this bold.  If they didn't build this, they should have. 
(https://i.imgur.com/LrXXMgyh.jpg)

Also, take a hard look at the #2 green in the above.  It is the double plateau hole, but unlike any other one that I've seen.  The left plateau has a bowl happening, and the right one is very small and looks insanely difficult to hit with an approach.  Between them there is sort of a connecting ramp and then it appears as though there is a back middle pocket and even a blind lower level in the back right.  If anyone has a better interpretation of this or can think of another double plateau like this, let me know.  It is unclear how far forward the green was intended to be mowed. 

I'm also really trying to get the 9th green to match what I see that is still in the ground under the weeds (reposting this image).  Hopefully this green has been untouched and this isn't a dampened version of the original.  In the image below, it is the aerial of the course overlaid with the google contours.  1st tee is the green rectangle.  You can see how approaching this green from the left (hitting over that bunker) would be to a green that slope away from you.  It's the Leven hole, but I have never found any evidence of a mound, but there were references to how difficult the green was to hold from a bad angle. 
(https://i.imgur.com/2Ee5l9eh.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on June 15, 2020, 11:47:55 AM
I have a long shot theory/ hopeful hunch and want to see if anyone can help me out with it. 

Background:
- We know that Charles Mayo extensively photographed the course before it was scraped.


I see that the Robert Trent Jones papers (1924-2003) are kept in the Cornell University library. 

Collection #6855

Here are all of the specific places in the collection that appear relevant-

Box/ Folders/ Topic
150/ 15-17/ Lido Beach
108/ 6/ Lido Golf Course
30/ 84/ Lido Golf Club, NY
175/ 48/ Lido
Tube 333/ Lido Beach Long Island- Lido Golf Club
Tube 511/ Long Beach, New York- Lido Golf Course

Has anyone here ever accessed the RTJ papers? 
If not, do we have anyone near Cornell who could make an appointment and inspect this information?  Assuming they open back up at some point from the Covid closure. 

Peter,I think the most likely folder containing Mayo's photos of the Lido is Box 175, folder 48. The others - although it'd be worthwhile to check - most likely contain only information on his work at the new course. Box 175 contains miscellaneous information on golf courses that apparently he collected over the years but weren't his projects. I looked at the indexes of the RTJ material a while ago and was hoping to find a reference to Mayo.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on June 16, 2020, 08:55:55 AM
I'm working to try to finish the final hole of the rendering, which is the 11th.  After that, I will go back over the entire course to double check all of the contours again, especially the greens.  Getting close!

For the 11th green, it is unlike anything that I've ever seen.  First of all, it is massive.  The front half of it looks like it is flat, but slightly sunken in like a 'punch tray' and there is round knob right in the middle of it that would feed shots left or right.  That would make for a very interesting green in itself.  But then there is a spine that separates the front half from the back half, like an inverse biarritz.  The back is probably banked to hold shots, but there is no back bowl and it falls rather steeply off if you roll it through (I can clearly see the drop off in other aerials). 

I want to try to get it right, but one problem is that in the 1926 aerial, the green isn't this big.  It appears as though they either deviated from the plans when they built it or they may have narrowed it later to protect the 2nd green and the 12th tee box from approach shots.  Also, the features in the aerial are very faint, so it isn't clear whether it ended up being this bold.  If they didn't build this, they should have. 
(https://i.imgur.com/LrXXMgyh.jpg)

Also, take a hard look at the #2 green in the above.  It is the double plateau hole, but unlike any other one that I've seen.  The left plateau has a bowl happening, and the right one is very small and looks insanely difficult to hit with an approach.  Between them there is sort of a connecting ramp and then it appears as though there is a back middle pocket and even a blind lower level in the back right.  If anyone has a better interpretation of this or can think of another double plateau like this, let me know.  It is unclear how far forward the green was intended to be mowed. 

I'm also really trying to get the 9th green to match what I see that is still in the ground under the weeds (reposting this image).  Hopefully this green has been untouched and this isn't a dampened version of the original.  In the image below, it is the aerial of the course overlaid with the google contours.  1st tee is the green rectangle.  You can see how approaching this green from the left (hitting over that bunker) would be to a green that slope away from you.  It's the Leven hole, but I have never found any evidence of a mound, but there were references to how difficult the green was to hold from a bad angle. 
(https://i.imgur.com/2Ee5l9eh.jpg)


Peter,


I see the same thing as you on the 2nd green.  The plateaux seem to be on the entire left side of the green and in the front right quadrant.  The left side of the green looks very much like 17 at Yale or similar to the 11th at NGLA.  The right side is reversed from those two examples where the second plateau is in the front right quadrant and the back is the low area of the green. The picture you have of Fishers Island shows a good example of what that front plateau may have looked like.  I see a combination of the left side of Yales 17th green with the front ride side plateau similar to Fishers Island.


11 is hard to determine from the aerials what was going on there.  In the plasticine model I almost interpret the back half as a Maiden, if the location of the "11" is in a low spot.  The front almost looks like an inverted Maiden where the right and left front quadrant may be hollows with a raised hump in the middle.  I'm not sure that's what they had in mind, but it would be interesting.  I view the back as raised compared to the front like a second tier at least in the plasticine model.  This is total speculation on 11 and may be totally off base.  The way you describe the 11th reminds me of the 6th at Hotchkiss which has very pronounced spines running through the green creating almost a wishbone shape.  The wishbone spine breaks the green into three distinct sections and the pin location determines which side of the fairway you want to approach from.


The Vanity Fair diagram shows a proposed mound on 9 very close to the 1st and 10th tees. It almost appears to protect the tees on this layout.  It's hard to tell if this was built to the specs, but it was certainly planned for.  If you look on Historicaerials.com you can still see the 9th green being maintained in 1966.  It appears to be the last green standing.  I have found references to Lido Springs Par 3 course on Lido Boulevard in the 1970's.  Has anyone ever heard of Lido Springs Par 3 course?  Was it on the site of the original Lido?


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Craig Disher on June 16, 2020, 12:21:08 PM
This photo of the 9th taken in 1964 shows a mound on the right front of the green. It's surprising that the ground contours would have remained for all those years. I think it's possible that the par-3 course could have been on this ground.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50013388787_03b37d5ccb.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jcvG3F)
Peter - the 3D image from the 40s shows that the bunker face to the rear of the green was lower than the bunker next to it. Certainly the green had a tilt from front left to back right.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on June 16, 2020, 03:39:26 PM
This photo of the 9th taken in 1964 shows a mound on the right front of the green. It's surprising that the ground contours would have remained for all those years. I think it's possible that the par-3 course could have been on this ground.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50013388787_03b37d5ccb.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jcvG3F)
Peter - the 3D image from the 40s shows that the bunker face to the rear of the green was lower than the bunker next to it. Certainly the green had a tilt from front left to back right.

Thanks for that pic.

Based on that google earth screen grab that I posted, the green is still there and matches what you're describing in terms of the tilt and that front of the green elevated from the fairway. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on June 16, 2020, 03:43:30 PM
I see the same thing as you on the 2nd green.  The plateaux seem to be on the entire left side of the green and in the front right quadrant.  The left side of the green looks very much like 17 at Yale or similar to the 11th at NGLA.  The right side is reversed from those two examples where the second plateau is in the front right quadrant and the back is the low area of the green. The picture you have of Fishers Island shows a good example of what that front plateau may have looked like.  I see a combination of the left side of Yales 17th green with the front ride side plateau similar to Fishers Island.

11 is hard to determine from the aerials what was going on there.  In the plasticine model I almost interpret the back half as a Maiden, if the location of the "11" is in a low spot.  The front almost looks like an inverted Maiden where the right and left front quadrant may be hollows with a raised hump in the middle.  I'm not sure that's what they had in mind, but it would be interesting.  I view the back as raised compared to the front like a second tier at least in the plasticine model.  This is total speculation on 11 and may be totally off base.  The way you describe the 11th reminds me of the 6th at Hotchkiss which has very pronounced spines running through the green creating almost a wishbone shape.  The wishbone spine breaks the green into three distinct sections and the pin location determines which side of the fairway you want to approach from.


I find it fascinating that with a blank canvass, he came up with such abstraction on the 2nd green.  It is really quirky.  It is definitely the hardest one on the course to recreate.  I have a version done, but not totally happy with it and I'll revisit it after I finish 11.

Thanks for the other examples.  I will look at them to try to get a better feel for what he may have been going for. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on June 17, 2020, 09:48:07 AM
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/389A9CE4-41A6-456D-81FA-B3514FC85B57_zpszfm737my.jpg)


Is it possible the 2nd green at Lido was based on an adaptation of Mackenzie's 18th green?  Macdonald mentioned that the 2nd green at Lido was based on a prize green.  Considering there were only three prizes and the 2nd and 3rd entries showed little detail in regards to the green, maybe he was referring to Mackenzie's green?  If you flip Mackenzie's green and substitute one of the hollows for a second plateau and make a few adjustments you could turn this double hollow green into a double plateau green rather easily. Even the runner-up designs that were published showed very little detail in their greens.



Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Alex Miller on June 17, 2020, 12:19:11 PM
For what it's worth (perhaps very little), I like Brett's interpretation quite a bit. It matches what my eyes are seeing in the model and could make for a compelling green complex. It would also help explain the stark ridge in the green in addition to the triangular knob back right - these could be used as backboards / feeder slopes for demanding plateau/hollow areas.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 01, 2020, 03:12:31 AM
Well, I'm finally done enough that it is test playable on 2K21. I still have a laundry list of little areas that I want to refine, like the 2nd green.  Bret, I didn't notice your post until now.  Where did CBM say that he patterned the green off of a contest entry?  Your theory makes a lot of sense. 

Here are some screen shots to show how it is looking.  For these, I went with a late 1920s aesthetic.  Still wild, but with the rough grown in a bit.  Early in its history, it was extremely wild and late in its history it was really grassed in. 

I'll just grab some random pics that I think represents it well- not in order.  Sorry, you'll have to scroll to see the full images.

3rd (ignore that mound to the right of the green- that is a secret tee box for the 4th for video game play only):
(https://i.imgur.com/pQZV5UUh.jpg)


7th: approach:
(https://i.imgur.com/LWTs3Ath.jpg)

9th hole- morning sun.  Shows what a difficult approach it would be from the left angle. 
(https://i.imgur.com/4pjDrUth.jpg)

10th- view of green from angle of approach around the alps
(https://i.imgur.com/me43cx3h.jpg)

No caption necessary:
(https://i.imgur.com/bZDrKTAh.jpg)

View of the Redan after walking down from the high tee box:
(https://i.imgur.com/9erBqf3h.jpg)


Looking down the barrel of Long.  I feel like it has a little Prestwick in it here, the way that everything ties together:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZvfTkilh.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Jeff Schley on September 01, 2020, 07:30:58 AM
Peter what a great effort and I know you did this voluntarily and I learned a tremendous amount. I didn't know the name Lido when I joined the site, only that CBM had created a course on LI that isn't there anymore. I am curious on three points.


1. How many hours do you estimate you devoted to this labor of love?
2. If you had to estimate how close your creation is to what was actually on the ground as you are limited by photos and information you were able to find.
3. Are you being utilized by Tom Doak or Gil Hanse for their Lido creations currently?


Well done and I'd love to host you in the Chicago area to play a round when I get back next.

Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bret Lawrence on September 01, 2020, 09:18:24 AM
Peter,


Great work!  Thanks for helping us visualize Lido.


C. B. Macdonald mentioned the second green was designed after a prize green in his July 1915 Golf Illustrated article.


“The second hole resembles in some measure the eleventh at the National.  The shot from the tee is a blind one, but on the fall there is considerable slope which gives particularly to the long driver who carries the bunkers to the right, a run which leaves him a driving iron or cleek to the green.  The green is a double plateau and is built after one of the prize greens selected by a committee consisting of Mr. Hutchinson, Mr. Darwin and Mr. Fowler out of eighty designs submitted to them in Great Britain for the best two-shot hole.”


Bret
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 01, 2020, 01:45:15 PM
Peter what a great effort and I know you did this voluntarily and I learned a tremendous amount. I didn't know the name Lido when I joined the site, only that CBM had created a course on LI that isn't there anymore.

Lots of hours, but very spread out.  It never felt like a grind because I was learning more and more about the course as I was doing it.  Felt more like reading a really good book. 

In terms of the accuracy, it is really getting close thanks to all the triangulation.  One nice thing is that there weren't overall slopes to the property.  So, each feature is sort of its own thing and I just needed to get each one proportional to the rest and matching the ground level photos.  In that respect, it's not a chain reaction where one misstep could throw the rest off.  The biggest blind spots are the greens on 2 and 11 I would say.  But I have lots of really good aerials that show them and some features can be seen. 

Consider this a living model though.  I'll continuously refine it and will incorporate any new information or analysis. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 01, 2020, 01:53:08 PM

3. Are you being utilized by Tom Doak or Gil Hanse for their Lido creations currently?



I would not have signed on to an attempt to recreate the Lido unless I was convinced we had enough information to get it right.  Peter's work convinced me that we can do it, and he will certainly be involved.  As of now we are trying to sort out how to translate all his data points into a grading plan, instead of a video presentation.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Thomas Dai on September 01, 2020, 02:02:02 PM
Splendid. Well done Peter.
Atb
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bill Seitz on September 01, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
It's a lot of fun to play and looks absolutely great. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 08, 2020, 02:43:09 PM
Getting down to some of the detail work, like power/ phone poles, etc.  Also going over the entire course again to try to get all of the micro contours and green contours as accurate as possible.

Here are some screenshots with some background blur to try to capture the atmosphere.

Looking over the cross bunkers on 7
(https://i.imgur.com/kADO7Gqh.jpg)

From short of the 18th green
(https://i.imgur.com/P8uB2Tih.jpg)

Looking at the approach on the 5th.  Knoll in the background.
(https://i.imgur.com/MP7aymKh.jpg)

Short of the green on the 6th
(https://i.imgur.com/oKNRzUUh.jpg)

9th green looking back toward the fairway.  Wind whipping off of the Atlantic.
(https://i.imgur.com/3yRFHOQh.jpg)

3rd shot on the 4th.  Added civilization to the background. 
(https://i.imgur.com/gl50myoh.jpg)
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ira Fishman on September 08, 2020, 03:51:34 PM
Peter,


This may have been asked and answered earlier, but do you maintain a website with all of the wonderful work in one place?


Thanks,


Ira
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ben Stephens on September 08, 2020, 04:51:16 PM

3. Are you being utilized by Tom Doak or Gil Hanse for their Lido creations currently?



I would not have signed on to an attempt to recreate the Lido unless I was convinced we had enough information to get it right.  Peter's work convinced me that we can do it, and he will certainly be involved.  As of now we are trying to sort out how to translate all his data points into a grading plan, instead of a video presentation.


Tom - Hmm I thought you weren't convinced by or anti golf courses designed in 3D computer modelling in another thread yet you are intending to proceed with this particular form of information have you turned a corner??  ;D ;D

Peter - the work you have done for one course is astonishing - well done.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on September 08, 2020, 05:57:58 PM
Peter,

This may have been asked and answered earlier, but do you maintain a website with all of the wonderful work in one place?

Thanks,

Ira

No, I'm just posting periodic updates here because I know that there are people interested in the progress.  Also, I have received some really helpful information from others here, so want to share back.  I never would have been interested enough to tackle this project if it wasn't for all of the prior threads and research that others contributed.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on September 08, 2020, 11:06:50 PM
Looks amazing in 2k21.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Michael Dugger on September 09, 2020, 07:58:56 PM
Hey Peter, what are you calling the course on 2k21?  I searched Lido last night and nothing came up.


I'm on the new version too, to be clear.


Looks good!!! 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Pat Burke on September 10, 2020, 03:29:03 AM
I don’t understand enough about the work you have done and the research applied,
But holy cow that is just an unreal looking presentation


Thank you for sharing this
I am looking at simulators for a facility and looking at your work is just thrilling to me
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Brian Finn on September 28, 2020, 08:40:38 PM
Hey Peter, what are you calling the course on 2k21?  I searched Lido last night and nothing came up.
Can anyone answer this question?  I’m hoping to play it. Thanks!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Tom_Doak on September 28, 2020, 10:36:00 PM

Tom - Hmm I thought you weren't convinced by or anti golf courses designed in 3D computer modelling in another thread yet you are intending to proceed with this particular form of information have you turned a corner??  ;D ;D



Ben:


In this case we are attempting to recreate a course which once existed, and the important part to me is all of the research and photo triangulation that Peter has done to get the elevations of the course as accurate as possible.  After that, someone else designed a program to grid his 3-D model and spit out a grading plan . . . and I am convinced that that grading plan is a better start than anything I could draw up.


But I still have no interest in designing a golf course from scratch on the computer.  If you and others enjoy playing the computer game, that's fine, but I'll wait for the full scale version!
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Michael Dugger on September 29, 2020, 06:51:13 PM
Hey Peter, what are you calling the course on 2k21?  I searched Lido last night and nothing came up.
Can anyone answer this question?  I’m hoping to play it. Thanks!


Search for NLE and he's got a couple of versions up.  Select the higher number for the latest version.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on November 21, 2020, 06:59:19 PM
Hey Peter, what are you calling the course on 2k21?  I searched Lido last night and nothing came up.
Can anyone answer this question?  I’m hoping to play it. Thanks!


Search for NLE and he's got a couple of versions up.  Select the higher number for the latest version.


Someone just gave me a Nintendo Switch Lite as a gift. I've been out of video games for quite a while. If I buy 2k21 will I be able to download the Lido and other similar user-generated courses? Thanks.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on November 21, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
I believe 2k21 is available for Switch.

If you have it, you should be able to play any publicly released course.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Mark Fedeli on November 22, 2020, 03:22:55 PM
I believe 2k21 is available for Switch.

If you have it, you should be able to play any publicly released course.


The game is available for Switch, but I see that “course designer” isn’t available for Switch. So I’m wondering if that means I also won’t be able to download custom courses like Lido. I probably wouldn’t buy it if I was stuck only playing the 6 pre-loaded Tour courses.


EDIT: Found my answer. Looks like the standard edition of the game has access to the user courses. Excellent.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Bill Seitz on November 25, 2020, 12:51:36 AM
To be honest, a lot of the user based courses are better than the courses that come standard with the game.  I got hooked into a "Tour" set up by guys from the No Laying Up message board (NLU Refuge Tour), and they play a bunch of user courses.  There's a Bandon Style "resort" (complete with short course) that was a big project for a bunch of designers.  These are all courses I never would have found on my own.  The user created recreations are surprisingly faithful.  Our next event is the playoffs, and they've chosen Pete's final version of Lido for the venue.


Note as well that you don't need to download courses.  You just access them through the game. 
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ronald Montesano on November 25, 2020, 09:02:36 AM
I'm tempted to purchase PGATour2K21 for my PC. I've never played it. Does anyone here play it on PC? Is that a one-time purchase?


https://pgatour.2k.com/
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Matthew Rose on November 25, 2020, 09:39:22 AM
I have the PC version - had to go through Steam, which is an online store similar to iTunes or Apple Music, but for video games - I had an account already from the previous version as well as when I bought Perfect Golf. I have maybe 10 courses out or so, a few which were ported over from 2019. There are two or three that are 90% done but I haven't got around to finishing them off.

I work for Trackman now so it's pretty much become my job... unfortunately I don't get much time to design for pleasure, but I still try to once in awhile just to get me out of re-creation mode.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Ronald Montesano on November 27, 2020, 12:07:23 AM
I dove in and made the purchase. Digital versions on sale for 50% off through December 1st. I bought it the Matthew Rose way and play it on the PC. Seriously fun. The depth of precision is really inspiring. Really nice work, Peter.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Cal Carlisle on March 17, 2022, 08:36:21 PM
I have a SkyTrak that I have set up at my shop. For the most part I use it mainly to work on my swing using the driving range feature. I also bought the TGC2019 package to play golf courses, too. The chipping and putting are a joke but for the most part the tee shots and approaches add some spice to the routine during the winter.


Of all the courses, though, I keep going back to Peter Flory’s rendition of the The Lido. What a cool golf course. As far as new golf course construction goes, I don’t think there’s anything I’m excited more about seeing than what they are building up in Wisconsin. Played from the tips, it’s a pretty substantial round of golf.
Title: Re: Lido- Virtual Build
Post by: Peter Flory on March 18, 2022, 04:08:36 AM

Cal, I'm glad that you're getting to know the course virtually.  You'll experience a sense of awe when you step onto the Sand Valley site and see the vast treeless expanse in real life.