Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on January 25, 2018, 02:31:26 PM
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What if the Rules stated, for every club you have in your bag, you must add one shot to your score?
Or two shots per club?
How many clubs would you want to carry? My guess is there's no way it's 14. Maybe ten. Maybe five, depending on the player.
P.S. Last month I Googled and found some YouTube excerpts for the one-club match at St. Andrews after The Open in 1984 ... which featured Ballesteros and Trevino vs. Aoki and Faldo. They all used 5-irons. They played the holes out at the far end of the course -- looked like maybe #6 through #13 -- and Seve made a bunch of pars with just his 5-iron. Watching them try to hit a 5-iron as far as they could off #13 tee was probably the highlight.
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Tom,
Another excellent bifurcation possibility.
14 clubs for weekend warriors.
11 for top notch Am events
8 for the Big boys.
I think this would be excellent!!
Phil would be
1- Driver
1 - 3 wood
1 - 5 iron
1 - 8 iron
3 - Wedges
1 - Putter
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My dad's club in Florida has an annual event in which the number of clubs you are permitted to carry is equal to 50% of your course handicap, rounded up to the nearest whole club. I believe that last year the tournament was one by a 6, who teed off and putted with his hybrid, while also carrying a wedge and a mid-iron.
Not exactly an answer to Tom's question, but it does go to show that you don't need 14 clubs to get around the course well.
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The most telling example of "regulatory capture" I've ever witnessed in golf was at the conference for architects in St. Andrews a few years ago, when we were spitballing ideas at the R&A's head of equipment testing. Someone [I think it was Tom Mackenzie] suggested the possibility of reducing the limit to seven clubs, and the fellow responded without missing a beat, "I don't think our friends in the manufacturing business would like if they only sold half as many clubs in a set." ::)
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It's a cool question Tom, and one very much worth exploring at the club level in a real event. Just as you've written it I think I would end up in the high single digits. 7 or 8 clubs.
But, that said...the more I see gnashing of teeth, about how good the top 100 guys are, from the key protagonists in golf architecture creativity/discussion/understanding the more I worry about the short term future of great architecture happening on the ground.
Yes, there is undoubtedly a very clear consciousness from the governing bodies of the manufacturer's agendas...but this one was clearly tounge in cheek with the term "friends".
The reality is, for 99% of golfers, the club limit could be raised to 30 or lowered to 8 with very little difference in their enjoyment or appreciation of great golf courses...so why in the world would it bother you?
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That’s a dreadful, but not surprising, reaction Tom mentions above. Tail wagging the dog?
The St Andrews 1-club event that’s on YouTube is one I recall seeing when it was made. Seve putting with the back of the club!
I believe Alister MacKenzie advocated a 6-Club limit. That would be fine by me even though it would be a reduction from the eight I usually carry.
I raised a thread a while back about how many clubs folks carry when playing. Can’t seem to find it now though.
Atb
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Watching them try to hit a 5-iron as far as they could off #13 tee was probably the highlight.
Didn't (Trevino?) get it up and in from Strath Bunker on 11?
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When I was a kid starting the game I used to have to rent clubs. Usually you'd get a bag with some odd lots...a 1 or 3 wood, something like 3, 5, 7, and 9 iron, and a putter.
We didn't know for quite some time that we needed more.
The last few times I played I had 15 clubs in the bag, because I finally broke down and got fitted and got a set of Titleist AP3 irons from 3 through Gap Wedge, to accompany my Taylor Made Driver, 3 wood, and 5 hybrid, as well as my TM 53 degree sand wedge, and 60 degree Cleveland wedge and Odyssey putter and I've been trying to do some test runs to see whether I keep the 3 iron or 5 hybrid in the bag as I approach age 60.
Confused yet?
Lord, I feel like such a sellout. ::)
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I'm confident I could play with 8 or 9 clubs and bet it wouldn't really affect my score. Heck, the enjoyment probably would go up!
Many who know me can attest I've been hoping (dreaming?!) the governing bodies would reduce the number of clubs available to a pro golfer to 10. I would enjoy watching the pros adjust!
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Joe, how do you think you/we would see their adjustments?
Do you think you'd be able to recognize hooks and slices from the fairway to fill in the yardage gaps? Maybe knockdowns?
I hate to say it but I think we would see them simply swing harder if they needed 10 yards more than their stock whatever iron would go.
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Well you only really need one club to technically play golf. However, in reality I could use about 20 clubs. A couple extra wedges, an extra putter, maybe a 7 wood would all help me out a lot!
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I could use 7-8 clubs. I’d prefer to have all 14. But nothing is stopping me from using as few as I want.
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I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now. Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs. Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots. I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.
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I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now. Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs. Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots. I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.
If you’ve been playing with only 8 clubs for a while, presumably exclusively, how do you know whether you would score the same with 14 clubs?
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I would go with 5,7,9,SW, Driver, 4 wood,22degree hybrid,putter. When I have tried it the score is basically the same. 8 total.
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I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now. Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs. Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots. I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.
If you’ve been playing with only 8 clubs for a while, presumably exclusively, how do you know whether you would score the same with 14 clubs?
I never saw a fluctuation in my scores when I first switched over. It sounds crazy, I was genuinely surprised. I believe I heard someone won the US Open with 7 clubs once before.
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When I started playing Hickory my club count went down.
I believe that no more than 10 clubs are needed, and even that could be reduced. Around the 8 or 9 club mark I think that with each club removed I'd probably cost myself a stroke around, so the stroke penalty would probably balance out until I got down to 3 or 4 clubs in which the difference would be magnified.
Chick Evans won the 1916 US Open with only 7 clubs, and that probably stand as a record for the fewest clubs used to win a US Open.
With so much talk about the ball and the length of the modern game, I've wondered for some time what if the club count for the pro's was reduced to 9 or 10? How would players choose to set up their bags, would they continue to carry a drive and a 3 wood? would the seeming more common 4 and 5 wedge setups be reduced to 2? how would the stagger their irons? I could easily see that by removing 4 or 5 clubs from a pro's bag that top end distance would come back to the pack and some more creativity would be returned to the game.
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I've seen a steady trend of customers buying partial sets over the past 1/2 decade. The last purchase of the season was a new set of Callaway clubs that consisted of a 13.5* driver and 21* hybrid, both adjustable, a 5, 7, and 9 iron, plus a gap and sand wedge. He also bought a small stand bag to replace the behemoth he was using.
The cost of equipment is having a positive influence on player's choices. Like it or not, the folks in the equipment business will be selling fewer clubs as more folks wise up to the fact that they don't need 14 of them.
I've been maintaining the handicaps for a 32 person league for about 15 years and once a season they have a 4 club event. Without fail a few come in w/a score over their normal range and a few come in w/a score under their normal range, with the remainder turning in their usual number.
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Didn't all of us over 55(?) start with a set comprised of driver, 3-wood, putter, 3,5,7,and 9 irons? Add a sand wedge and a hybrid and you're all set.
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Harry Vardon is supposed to have only had 7 clubs in his bag. I imagine others during earlier periods of the game did as well.
It would be interesting to see the pros we watch on TV these days play a tournament with only 6-7-8 clubs. Not just to see which clubs they carry but to watch their creativity and thinking processes as well. 7-8 degrees of loft difference between clubs instead of 3-4.
If you’ve never tried playing with less clubs in the bag give it a go sometime, just take with you your putter and every-other club. You might be surprised how you score.
And if you’re after new irons, well the days of buying ‘full sets’ of irons seem to have gone as most manufacturers will sell on a club-by-club ‘partial set’ type basis these days.
Atb
PS - when I first watched this short Wolf Point video it wasn’t just the terrific looking course that struck me but the size and number of clubs in MN’s golf bag - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktydEvIOehc (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktydEvIOehc) - :)
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Interesting article on The Walking Golfers Society website written by Joel Zuckerman that goes into more depth on the concept of minimalist golf.
http://thewalkinggolfer.com/minimalist_golfer.html (http://thewalkinggolfer.com/minimalist_golfer.html)
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Hundred Hole Hike days I go down to six clubs. Driver, 5, 7, 9, wedge, putter.
Last year I shot my low round of the year that day. I don't notice a bit of difference in score between using six clubs or my whole bag.
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In the book "The Complete Golfer" By Harry Vardon he describes the 9 club set he carried:
Driver
Brassie
Driving Cleek
Light Cleek
Driving Mashie
Iron
Mashie
Niblick
Putter
Francis Ouimet 1913 set was also 9 clubs:
Driver
Brassie
Cleek
Mid-Iron
Light Iron
Approach Cleek
Mashie
Mashie-Niblick
Putter
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On a question like this, I want to place my own experience (though I've also played with 8 modern clubs or 11 vintage ones and found no appreciable difference in my score) behind that of the greats who've played the game.
I think of Ben Hogan praising Jimmy Demaret as the best shot-maker he'd ever seen; saying something like "I ended up being able to hit all those same shots -- but it was Jimmy who was hitting them first, and that's who I learned them from". Or
Byron Nelson, on being asked as an 85 year old how much better his 18 win season and 68.3 scoring average would've been if he could've used today's equipment, answering: "Oh, probably not much better. The centre of the club face is the same now as it was back then". Or
Nick Faldo, emotional as he remembered how he marveled at the shots Seve could hit and the imagination he had, the 3 woods out of fairway bunkers, the laid-open 4 irons out of greenside bunkers -- and then getting teary-eyed with pride and affection at how Seve hugged him at the end of that Ryder Cup and said "You're a real pro!" Or
Trevino sharing how much it meant when, fairly early in his career, Jack Nicklaus told him "You're a lot better than you think you are -- and when you believe that you're going to be tough to beat"...and Lee's low spinning wedges from 100 yards out and those amazingly consistent 'blocked' tee shots to the centre of the fairway, time and time and time again, which made Jack realize, during their showdowns, that Lee was never going to back down or beat himself
And of course, Jack himself, with those three amazing (Macgregor) 1 irons!, soaring majestic shots when it counted most that left other pros - the Weiskopfs and Crenshaws etc - speechless: the 1 iron at Baltusrol, 240 yards, uphill, into the wind; the 1 iron at Pebble, the wind whipping off the ocean, the ball stopping inches from the cup; and the 1 iron to the 15th in the 75 Masters, way up in the air and landing on that green as softly as a butterfly with sore feet.
Excuse the ramble, but it's to say: it seems that for the longest time the golfers who played the game best and often truly loved to play it all valued great 'shot-making' as the essence of the game, and most appreciated and envied it their colleagues. And I think that for *this* generation of great golfers (Tiger Woods first among them), it would be the same, i.e. they'd be very happy to re-focus the game on what makes it so fun and challenging and rewarding and such a life-long pursuit, i.e. shot-making.
Jim S is probably right that most of today's tour golfers, if forced to using only 7 clubs, would just tend to hit 'less' club a lot harder. But maybe some of them wouldn't...
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I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now. Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs. Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots. I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.
If you’ve been playing with only 8 clubs for a while, presumably exclusively, how do you know whether you would score the same with 14 clubs?
I never saw a fluctuation in my scores when I first switched over. It sounds crazy, I was genuinely surprised. I believe I heard someone won the US Open with 7 clubs once before.
Cal,
Interestingly enough, my lowest score by 5 shots on my home course came with a half set of eight clubs. And I score just about the same, if not better. In my mind, it takes the decision of club selection out of the mind and instead I worry about controlling distance / height. I have toyed with the idea of using a half set for a medal round, but don't have the cojones to do it yet.
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For the past 4 years I have been playing with 8 or less. Makes carrying much easier.
Last Summer at my home course in MN played entire season with six. Rarely did I wish that I had a “missing” club (no more than once or twice a round).
Driver, 25* hybrid, 7i, 9i, 56*w, Putter. All irons are 7i length which enables a much wider range of distances I can hit each one.
For a two week period I kept track of every shot - 80-85% were with four clubs- driver, hybrid, 9i, Putter.
When I travel to other courses I sometime vary the clubs for the course. While in CA in the Winter I carry seven - adding a 4w. Shot my age (only once so far) with these seven.
Last Summer I competed in the MN Senior Am Grand Masters division for the first time (6 clubs).
The shotmaking challenges are enhanced - I love creating shots, it’s more fun.
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Hundred Hole Hike days I go down to six clubs. Driver, 5, 7, 9, wedge, putter.
Last year I shot my low round of the year that day. I don't notice a bit of difference in score between using six clubs or my whole bag.
This has been my experience as well, one reason I started the thread. For our day at St. Andrews I think I was down to five clubs ... I had 4-wood instead of 5-iron, and didn't carry both 9 and wedge. It's easier to do this on links courses, with their open green fronts. It was my lowest score ever on The Old Course and three of my lowest rounds of the year. Of course, we were also playing way faster, and I play better when I can play fast.
Since then, I've gradually gone back to eight clubs, putting back the 5-iron, 8-iron and one wedge. On American courses, it seems particularly important to have more graduated irons to deal with carrying bunkers at the fronts of greens. That's why, if I had to set a limit, I'd limit the pros to five or six clubs: that's the point where some shotmaking really comes into play. But I'd love to see how many they chose to use, if there were strokes on the line for every additional club, and it wasn't just a one-time thing.
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Didn't all of us over 55(?) start with a set comprised of driver, 3-wood, putter, 3,5,7,and 9 irons? Add a sand wedge and a hybrid and you're all set.
+1
The only things keeping me from going back to the beginning are (1) lighter bags so still easy to walk with 14 clubs and (2) the misplaced belief that 14 will enable me to play better.
Ok, really only number 2.
Ira
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My own personal goal, one which I have mentioned to several friends, is to one day reach such a state of enlightenment that I can “play” an entire round of golf without the need for clubs. I would be able to visualize all the shots needed to fully experience all that the course demands. That is true enlightenment! Some day...
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My own personal goal, one which I have mentioned to several friends, is to one day reach such a state of enlightenment that I can “play” an entire round of golf without the need for clubs. I would be able to visualize all the shots needed to fully experience all that the course demands. That is true enlightenment! Some day...
Brian,
Alan Shipnuck recently did a podcast on an South African pro named Wayne Western who took his own life last year. In the podcast he talks a lot about how Wayne was an eccentric guy with interesting ideas about the game. Wayne used to get a caddie and walk all 18 holes with his clubs, but never hitting a shot. He would just imagine where each shot went and walk to the that spot. Sounds like he had true enlightenment!
https://soundcloud.com/golf_podcast/wayne-westner-troubled-off-the-tee
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What if the Rules stated, for every club you have in your bag, you must add one shot to your score?
Or two shots per club?
How many clubs would you want to carry? My guess is there's no way it's 14. Maybe ten. Maybe five, depending on the player.
P.S. Last month I Googled and found some YouTube excerpts for the one-club match at St. Andrews after The Open in 1984 ... which featured Ballesteros and Trevino vs. Aoki and Faldo. They all used 5-irons. They played the holes out at the far end of the course -- looked like maybe #6 through #13 -- and Seve made a bunch of pars with just his 5-iron. Watching them try to hit a 5-iron as far as they could off #13 tee was probably the highlight.
Tom -
About 20 years ago, I read a golf book called "Five Iron". It was about a guy who learned to play golf in a prison yard using - you guessed it - only a 5 iron.
When he got out he competed on some sort on "one club tour" and, of course, triumphed wonderfully.
I swear I leant it to someone a few years ago and now realize they never returned it.
After a brief search on Amazon, I cant find it.
It was a fun read.
Cheers,
Ian
PS: Just found this write-up on it:https://www.amazon.in/Five-Iron-Roy-Orason/dp/096423923X
FIVE IRON is a suspense-filled mystery of murder on the golf course. Tim Ryan is accused of killing his father's assailant by crushing his head with a five iron. Tim Ryan, a young man of nineteen, is sentenced to twenty years in the state penitentiary for the crime. However, three of his friends believe there is more to the killing than is brought out in Tim's trial. They set out to get his sentence reduced or to have him exonerated by finding out who actually committed the crime. While Tim Ryan is in prison he is given a five iron with which he practices day & night under the direction of the warden's son. This earns him the name of Mr. Five Iron. One Club Golf Tournaments are introduced & soon Tim gains national notoriety. FIVE IRON keeps you in complete anticipation & suspense until the final chapter. FIVE IRON is a wonderful golf story that will attract the non-golfer as well as the golfer.
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Wayne used to get a caddie and walk all 18 holes with his clubs, but never hitting a shot. He would just imagine where each shot went and walk to the that spot. Sounds like he had true enlightenment!
https://soundcloud.com/golf_podcast/wayne-westner-troubled-off-the-tee (https://soundcloud.com/golf_podcast/wayne-westner-troubled-off-the-tee)
Peter Jacobsen told me he used to do something similar when preparing for a tournament on a course he'd never played before. He said he didn't want a bad shot the first time around to stay planted in his head, so before he played he would walk the course once and visualize good outcomes all the way around.
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I have been playing with 10ish clubs tops for at least 10 years. If I wasn't so cheap and lazy, I would buy more clubs regardless of how many I carried because I would interchange clubs depending on the course and conditions if I had them. I think most golfers are this way so companies would still sell just as many clubs...maybe more if the concept of a permanent set was chucked.
I reckon in summer on a dry links I could probably play with 7 clubs no problem...driver, 7 wood, 6 iron, 8 iron, wedge, sand wedge and putter...I often play with this set and sometimes 6 clubs depending on sand (I use 6 at my club a lot)...anything less than 6 feels wrong to me.
I think pros and top ams should play with 6 clubs. I really don't think scoring would be worse, just more entertaining watching them earn the scores.
Ciao
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Realistically, I could go to 7.
Driver/ 5 hybrid/ 7i/ 9i/ AW/ 56*/ putter
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I have done a lot of thinking about this and when I recover from hip surgeries by this summer, I will play with 10 clubs. Age, loss of clubhead speed and my desire to carry and walk led me to re-think this problem. And finally, I go by more the loft of the actual club than by what is a "7 iron".
Putter
Driver
22 deg 7 fwy metal
25 deg hybrid
30 deg hybrid
35 deg iron
40 deg iron
45 deg iron
52 deg wedge (have debated going with a 50 deg)
58 deg wedge
...........have also thought about going to 6 deg difference between clubs
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As so many have said, it does indeed 'work'. For me it's:
3 Wood
5 Wood or 18 degree hybrid
4-6-8-PW
Sand Wedge
Putter
Maybe the main benefit (scoring wise) is that my tee shots rarely have enough distance to get into/reach the trouble the architect had planned for me
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I think i could do this:
3 wood
Hybrid
6 iron
Wedge
Putter if I had to, but could putt with the 3 wood
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No badge of honor for doing so, but I have played with 7 clubs in the bag for the past 4 years. The main reason was to lighten the load, but have found a lot more enjoyment due to the creativity required. I carry:
Titleist 975J Driver, which I can also hit off the deck
4, 6, 8, w, sw, p
I don’t carry an official hdcp, but I truly believe I give away less than two strokes per round with half the number of clubs allowed, and maybe even less because I have to weigh my options and play a bit more conservative. Maybe I’m better with half the clubs!
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I think about dropping clubs every time I prepare to play. I'm obsessed with shedding bag weight.
I rarely use my 3-wood or 4-iron on my home course. But I only play once a week, and each time I'm getting my bag ready I think about the few shots where those clubs were hugely important, that I couldn't have pulled off with anything else. It makes it very hard to leave them at home in case those shots arise again during this round I've been looking forward to all week. That's what burdens me.
I'm down to 13 right now, and really want to get to 10-11, even though I know I'd be fine with 8.
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PS: Just found this write-up on it:https://www.amazon.in/Five-Iron-Roy-Orason/dp/096423923X
FIVE IRON is a suspense-filled mystery of murder on the golf course. Tim Ryan is accused of killing his father's assailant by crushing his head with a five iron. Tim Ryan, a young man of nineteen, is sentenced to twenty years in the state penitentiary for the crime. However, three of his friends believe there is more to the killing than is brought out in Tim's trial. They set out to get his sentence reduced or to have him exonerated by finding out who actually committed the crime. While Tim Ryan is in prison he is given a five iron with which he practices day & night under the direction of the warden's son. This earns him the name of Mr. Five Iron. One Club Golf Tournaments are introduced & soon Tim gains national notoriety. FIVE IRON keeps you in complete anticipation & suspense until the final chapter. FIVE IRON is a wonderful golf story that will attract the non-golfer as well as the golfer.
FWIW, abebooks.com is my go to place to find stuff like this, they list books from booksellers all over the place, and sure enough there's a few of his books available.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=roy+orason&tn=&kn=&isbn=
K
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That's why, if I had to set a limit, I'd limit the pros to five or six clubs: that's the point where some shotmaking really comes into play. But I'd love to see how many they chose to use, if there were strokes on the line for every additional club, and it wasn't just a one-time thing.
They'd probably all get together in the locker room and agree that everyone carries 14 = everyone starts the round w/the same number of penalty strokes. ;) [size=78%] [/size]
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Six?
1. Driver
2. Hybrid
3. 5I
4. 7I
5. PW
6. Putter
I could probably shift down to a 4I and lose the hybrid and get to 5 if necessary. I've shot E with a 5-iron from 6400 yards. I was REALLY familiar with the course, though.
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My starter set was 3W,3,5,7,9 & putter. Seems close to what I'd select today if granted 7 clubs.
1W,3W,hyb,6,9,SW,Putter
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To repeat a post I made here on another thread barely 1 month ago:
In one of the pieces ("Europe in the Fall") in Herbert Warren Wind's anthology Following Through, he reports on the Braemar Professional 7-club tournament that was held at Turnberry in 1964.
You can find the actual New Yorker piece here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1964/11/07/europe-in-the-fall (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1964/11/07/europe-in-the-fall)
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Love this topic, as I have played in numerous 3 club tournaments where I use 5 iron, wedge, putter. I know many use their fairway metals or equator a wedge in their putting form, although I can do neither.)))
My putter right now isn't that good, so why should I save it? I'd probably want two, hybrid and a wedge. I can figure out how to play bad golf with 2 clubs from average golf with all.)
One thing this does it cause you to experiment with moving the ball back or up in your stance and closing or opening your clubface. It will surprise you what that club is capable of doing when manipulated.
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Interesting how this thread has developed and what I read as general support.
Taking TD's initial idea a bit further how about a pre-determined set number of clubs, say 6 or 7, and penalty shots if you carry more and 'bonus'/reduction shots if you carry less.
atb
PS - If you've carried the same clubs for a while 14 check the grips. The clubs you use most often will most likely have the most worn grips. Should give you a hint as to which clubs you really need.
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When I was a member down at Silloth, the lowest score I had in competition off the medal tees was a 78 scored in the annual 5-club comp, when I was playing off 10. IIRC I was only 1 over after 10 before "blowing up" in the last few holes with a string of bogeys. I was only beaten by one of my playing partners, also off 10, who beat me with a better inward half.
From memory my 5 clubs were putter, sand-wedge, 7 iron, 5 iron and 5 wood with versatility in club the key, hence no driver. I also remember being very mindful of what the next shot would/might be and playing accordingly. It's amazing how strategic you become when you won't necessarily have the club in the bag to get you out of trouble.
Niall
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It is an interesting exercise.
Most golfers would actually score bettter, especially newer players.
I usually only allow them to buy 6-7 clubs, despite their insistence on a full set.
Lofted Driver(for women as much as 14 degrees-men 11-13), 7 wood 7 iron, 9 iron, SW, putter and one other are plenty.
Saves a lot of time also as there are less questions about what club to use where and endless caddy/pro discussion.
As they improve you add a few to fill in gaps-meanwhile , it's a lot easier to get proficient with 2-4 clubs rather than trying to learn 12-13 different lie angles, lengths and lofts
Usually I'm undermined by a spouse or parent who buys them a set of 16 clubs for a birthday surprise. :(
It's also a very liberating way to play as an advanced player-having to invent and create shots-especially on a course that allows it.
It gives one an appreciation for what a low clubhead speed player faces when tring to hit a 2/3 7 iron to a front pin when not enough spin can be creaetd to stop it.
Of course a better player can hit a high open face cut to stop it by using more speed, but a lower clubhead speed player doesn't have that option and the ball will run over.
Not really a solution for the elite as they really only need driver a hybrid and a sw wedge anyway.
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Erik - man, that's some impressive golf! It must be very satisfying to play the game so well. I keep hoping that such proficiency lies out there in the future for me, but with each passing year my doubts grow...
Jim - OMG, I never even considered that possibility, but I think you might be spot on.
Ira - thanks for the laugh. I was there too once, and if you don't mind some unsolicited advice: I think our worry is that we might sometimes be caught 'between clubs'; you know, the shot requires a 6 iron, but we only have a 5 iron and a 7 iron in our bag. But by a little trial and error, I found the solution -- i.e. take the 5 iron, every time!
'Take more club' is a good general principle; but also, in my case at least, the truth is that the shot actually "required" a 5 iron all along!
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It's amazing how strategic you become when you won't necessarily have the club in the bag to get you out of trouble.
Niall
Nicely put Niall. Plus not having a club with you that's likely to put you in (as much) trouble in the first place.
atb
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If the penalty was one stroke per club, I'd probably go with:
1 wood
5 or 7 wood
4 iron
6 iron
8 iron
pitching wedge (46 degree)
gap wedge (50 degree)
sand wedge (56 degree)
putter
If the penalty was two strokes per club, I might try:
1 wood
5 or 7 wood
6 iron
8 iron
gap wedge (50 degree)
sand wedge (56 degree)
putter
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Interesting how this thread has developed and what I read as general support.
Thomas,
Of course the thread reads as "general support"; it self-selects for guys who either play fewer than 14 clubs, or like the idea. Those of us (other than, I think, PCraig) that would carry MORE than 14 if allowed aren't likely to post. It's the same reason that opinion polling in which the sample self-selects have no validity.
This is yet another GCA.com "Grumpy Old Men Seek Return to the Flat Earth Days" thread. So I'll be the Reverse Grumpy Old Man for purposes of this intellectual exercise.
In the Canadian Skins game years ago, Mickelson, Weir, Love, and Couples all traded clubs and hit from the opposite side on a par three; all four hit 7 irons onto the green. That was REALLY cool, and REALLY revealing to watch, especially when Couples hit last and said before the shot, "If I miss this, I'm quitting!" before hitting it on the green. But I don't take the message of THAT to be that I should play lefthanded; thus with stories about Ballesteros, a genetic hand-eye freak if ever there was one, playing with one club. That means nothing to me.
So for the record: I always walk, and I carry, or rather push, 14 clubs. Were the Rules to allow it, I'd add a really high lofted wedge, say 62*, I'd carry both a 3W and a 5W instead of just a 4W, and I'd carry either a 5 or a 6 iron in addition to those two hybrids. 17 clubs would get me thru just fine, thank you very much.
And two additional thoughts on this:
1. I play yearly in a 4 club tournament at my course; I don't find it especially enjoyable beyond the fact that I'd rather compete than eat. The requirements of course management are fun, but hitting the same clubs over and over and over just doesn't do much for me.
2. Stories about Vardon, Ballesteros, and Trevino playing with one club or whatever are no more instructive to me than Nolan Ryan throwing 100 mph fastballs at age 45, or Tom Brady being the best QB in pro football at age 40, or Vince Carter putting up the occasional double-double in the NBA at age 40. Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; that's why they played professionally in the first place.
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I play around 10% of my golf with one club. It limits the amount of times I have to bend over to on the tee and at the green. As in life, bending over is the most difficult move in golf.
Played a 36 hole charity event a couple of years ago at Sweetens Cove. One ball, one birdie, one ball. Finished in 4:20.
I'd play all my golf with one club if it ever became socially acceptable.
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Joe, how do you think you/we would see their adjustments?
Do you think you'd be able to recognize hooks and slices from the fairway to fill in the yardage gaps? Maybe knockdowns?
I hate to say it but I think we would see them simply swing harder if they needed 10 yards more than their stock whatever iron would go.
I really don't know how they would adjust, but I sure would like to find out. And maybe 10 clubs is too many. Maybe a lucky seven would really show the best shotmakers!
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And two additional thoughts on this:
1. I play yearly in a 4 club tournament at my course; I don't find it especially enjoyable beyond the fact that I'd rather compete than eat. The requirements of course management are fun, but hitting the same clubs over and over and over just doesn't do much for me.
2. Stories about Vardon, Ballesteros, and Trevino playing with one club or whatever are no more instructive to me than Nolan Ryan throwing 100 mph fastballs at age 45, or Tom Brady being the best QB in pro football at age 40, or Vince Carter putting up the occasional double-double in the NBA at age 40. Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; that's why they played professionally in the first place.
1. Making the same full swing over and over just doesn't do much for me.
2. Of course those guys can do crazy stuff; and that's precisely when they're the most fun to watch.
You are right that the thread is somewhat self-selecting ... though there is no law against others sharing their opinions. Walter Hagen carried something like 20 clubs when it was legal to do so, and it didn't cost him anything. But I would wager quite a bit that if you have an event at your home club with rules like this, there is no way the winner will have carried 14 clubs.
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It gives one an appreciation for what a low clubhead speed player faces when tring to hit a 2/3 7 iron to a front pin when not enough spin can be creaetd to stop it.
Of course a better player can hit a high open face cut to stop it by using more speed, but a lower clubhead speed player doesn't have that option and the ball will run over.
Not really a solution for the elite as they really only need driver a hybrid and a sw wedge anyway.
It's been a while since I did it, but I used to occasionally go out and play one of my courses from the forward tees with just a 6-iron, never making more than a 3/4 swing, to see how well they worked for the average woman golfer. But eventually I decided it would be better to invite a woman to play and just watch her. ;)
Do you really think the Tour players would be okay just using four clubs [including putter] ? And that driver would be one of them? I think the difficulty of dialing in distances would cost them 2-3 birdies a round, so they'd be likely to add the irons they were most likely to use on that course.
If we actually designed golf courses for this rule, I would be much more conscious of mixing up the yardages, too. You wouldn't see a lot of par-3's where you could hit a full wedge or a hybrid.
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Just out of interest, I played 36 evening holes at Crail a couple of years ago with one club. I chose:
A wedge for Balcomie
A 3-iron for Craighead
I scored pretty well round Balcomie. Length of course clearly plays a part.
Reason I did it was I just wanted a walk and needed a walking stick.
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I think we would see almost every tour player using one of those "phrankenwood" clubs off the tee for versatility much like Mickelson has been doing on and off for a while now.
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If we actually designed golf courses for this rule, I would be much more conscious of mixing up the yardages, too. You wouldn't see a lot of par-3's where you could hit a full wedge or a hybrid.
I'm not sure the design would be as important as the maintenance. The firmer the golf course, the more options/distances available for hitting each club.
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AG -
as is often the case, I hear what you're saying here and you make yourself exceedingly clear! :)
But I think in this case, you might be missing the trees for the forest, i.e. the specificity of the very many individual and differing skill sets for the general, grumpy old men collective.
And example of what I mean: I played with Joe H once, and though he was barely trying I could see that he was a very good golfer. Now, a golfer like Joe will be playing with 7 clubs because he long ago stopped caring about his score and instead likes to maximize his fun by creating shots -- and is good enough to create them!
A golfer like me, on the other hand, still does care very much about shooting his best score, and would gladly give up "fun" to be able to grind out par after par, and doesn't have skill enough to *create* almost anything save for a decently struck stock iron shot or fairly accurate tee shot. And for a golfer like me, it has proven itself to be true that I don't score any worse and never have my *worst* scores playing with 8 clubs, and that I sometimes score even better.
Why? 1) Because a 3 wood off the tee almost never gets me in trouble, or at least in as much trouble as a driver does 2) Because this old Ping 5 wood I have should be made illegal, so easy is it to hit high and straight. 3) Because having only every other iron in the bag means that I'm forced to take "more club" (a 6 instead of the missing 7 iron), and it's always the case that "more" iron is in fact the "right" iron for me 4) Because I don't practice hardly at all with short clubs, so having -- and trying to use during a round -- an almost untouched 53 degree gap or 60 degree lob wedge is just a recipe for dashed hopes and disastrous results, and 5) Because the limited number of clubs acts as/replaces the will power I don't possess, i.e. the will power to keep my ego in check, and to play within myself.
I can understand why someone like you scores better with the full 14 clubs; you're a good and long time golfer who knows how to use (and finds use for) each of those clubs. For someone like me, less clubs actually keeps the game simpler -- which is very good mentally and thus helps me physically.
And yet, all that said: if you asked me to come out and play a round tomorrow, I'd still have to make myself, *force* myself, not to bring along 14 clubs; such is the power and appeal of playing with a 'full set' of clubs, a 'proper' set of clubs, especially for a 'traditionalist' like me. And for that reason alone, if for none of those listed above, I think it useful to sometimes play with a half set, i.e. simply to shake off the automatic and habitual response in seeking for something fresh.
Well, that's it. I know I will not have changed your mind :)
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I can shoot the same crappy score with 5 clubs. Driver, 4-wood or rescue, 7-iron, sand wedge and putter. As it stands I only have 13 in the bag. 14 is frankly too many. It might be interesting and provoke more shotmaking to limit it to 8 or 10, not to mention promoting carrying.
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Jud
I think you are right, the fewer clubs you have the more proficient you become in knock down shots or three quarter shots etc but more than that, I think you really think your way round more, or at least I found I did.
Thinking back to my Silloth days that I mentioned in a previous post, I'm pretty sure none of my regular cronies that I played with normally had as many as 14 clubs or anything like it.
Niall
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Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
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We had a golfer at Balboa park who, when it was legal, had a 54" driver! He small in stature and probably hit a regulation length driver about 220 Yards. But he could hit that 54" driver over 300 yards; I swear you thought you would be sucked in to the vortex when he swung that thing down at the ball! When the USGA banned it he decided to "protest" by "simplifying the game". He carried only a driver, 8 iron and sand wedge and putted with either the SW or driver. The Club was afraid that he would establish a handicap with just those 3 clubs and then enter a tournament with a full set and clean up. They contacted the SCGA to see how they should proceed. The SCGA said he should be banned from the Men's Club thus eliminating our potential problem!
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
Kalen-Do you mean how would the player interact with the existing architecture or how would it affect yet to be built courses?
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
Kalen-Do you mean how would the player interact with the existing architecture or how would it affect yet to be built courses?
I was thinking more of the latter, the former is what we've been discussing up until now...
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Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.
Society has changed, drastically. Are your kids as driven as you are? Or were? I'd say they have other priorities entirely. But that's a topic much bigger than golf.
But to this topic, you can still try to do your best with 7 clubs or however many. You said yourself you'd just like to use one, and I imagine you are still competing with just one. It's a way of making the game harder, really ... quite the opposite of those who think I'm trying to make it easier.
I'm just exploring this topic as another way to bifurcate without really changing anything.
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I am surprised how many people would still carry multiple wedges.
One could hit an 8 iron for all shots up to about 130 yds and only use a wedge for where you have to fly an obstacle.
My "Required" clubs would only be:
Driver
#4 Hybrid
6 iron
8 iron
Sand Wedge
Putter
Anything else would just be frosting on the cake.
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
None
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Has society changed or is it just romantic of me to think that not so long ago everyone tried to do their best at everything they did.
Society has changed, drastically. Are your kids as driven as you are? Or were? I'd say they have other priorities entirely. But that's a topic much bigger than golf.
But to this topic, you can still try to do your best with 7 clubs or however many. You said yourself you'd just like to use one, and I imagine you are still competing with just one. It's a way of making the game harder, really ... quite the opposite of those who think I'm trying to make it easier.
I'm just exploring this topic as another way to bifurcate without really changing anything.
No one has addressed how this would affect tour players financially if the manufacturers reduce the stipends paid for using their equipment.
And the collateral damage that will produce.
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I play with weird sets all the time, and rarely on purpose. Often just depends on what I have in the trunk, which can be weird. I'm like the anti JK, which isn't surprising to me or him. He plays to win, I play for fun. He wins, I have fun, so it sounds like we're both happy. Though JK would probably be unhappy with me, if he cared at all.
Driver, 4 iron, 7 iron, wedge, putter would likely serve me as well as the full set. Maybe it's me, maybe it's Maybelline...
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Sounds like the next GCA event should implement something like this.....
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Erik - man, that's some impressive golf! It must be very satisfying to play the game so well. I keep hoping that such proficiency lies out there in the future for me, but with each passing year my doubts grow...
Two tricks, really:
- An incredibly thin soled club helps with hitting some higher lofted flops and pitches.
- A LOT of course knowledge.
I've always had a good sense of feel for short shots. I'll hit 8-irons from 115 if the shot suits it, and I never practice those shots. Just always been good at them.
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Erik - man, that's some impressive golf! It must be very satisfying to play the game so well. I keep hoping that such proficiency lies out there in the future for me, but with each passing year my doubts grow...
Two tricks, really:
- An incredibly thin soled club helps with hitting some higher lofted flops and pitches.
- A LOT of course knowledge.
I've always had a good sense of feel for short shots. I'll hit 8-irons from 115 if the shot suits it, and I never practice those shots. Just always been good at them.
You are more talented than most for sure. Maybe it was when we were growing up you didn't even have a full set to play with and had to make it work with what you had? I remember my dad had a hand me down hodge podge of clubs with a driver, 5,7,9, putter only. I played with those until I was maybe 10 or 11 I think. I remember I learned to hit my 5 iron like a stinger, or so I thought, for more distance.
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
Wondering, in the first instance - ??? ??? ?? - if course lengths would over time morph into being shorter if less folks were carrying a low lofted Driver (ie carrying instead say a 12-14* club for both tee and fairway play)? Not entirely sure of this myself, just openingly wondering. :)
To move on a bit further, it should have a GCA effect if a max club loft were introduced at the same time.
atb
PS - how about incorporating a 9-hole evening 7 clubs only event at Buda?
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I've been playing with 8 clubs in a small carry bag for a while now. Shoot the same score as I would with 14 clubs. Make less club selection mistakes and forces me to try different shots. I laugh now when I see these 11 handicaps with staff bags.
If you’ve been playing with only 8 clubs for a while, presumably exclusively, how do you know whether you would score the same with 14 clubs?
I never saw a fluctuation in my scores when I first switched over. It sounds crazy, I was genuinely surprised. I believe I heard someone won the US Open with 7 clubs once before.
When I have gone from 14 to 8, and then back to 14 (my push cart was broken down), I saw no more that usual fluctuations in my score, and handicap.
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It is an interesting exercise.
Most golfers would actually score bettter, especially newer players.
I usually only allow them to buy 6-7 clubs, despite their insistence on a full set.
Lofted Driver(for women as much as 14 degrees-men 11-13), 7 wood 7 iron, 9 iron, SW, putter and one other are plenty.
Saves a lot of time also as there are less questions about what club to use where and endless caddy/pro discussion.
As they improve you add a few to fill in gaps-meanwhile , it's a lot easier to get proficient with 2-4 clubs rather than trying to learn 12-13 different lie angles, lengths and lofts
Usually I'm undermined by a spouse or parent who buys them a set of 16 clubs for a birthday surprise. :(
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Of course the golf club manufacturers and retailers are pushing them for the full set plus extra wedges and hybrids to the benefit of the business, and IMO this is a detriment to bringing new players to the game. Why is a new player going to stick with a game that has all these implements that he cannot use effectively?
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I really think that the 1 stroke per club is an interesting concept for tournament golf. Then there would be no limit to the number of clubs that players are allowed to carry. The optimization point would changed based on the golf courses and setups, so it would provide ongoing intrigue.
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So to bring this thing full circle and relevant to GCA.
What would the effect be, if any, on architecture, if the number of clubs allowed were officially changed to a Max 7?
Absolutely none.
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When I first started playing golf often again after becoming an empty nester, I played with a single digit friend who found my aging blades from my youth to be quite odd, and he suggested I get newer clubs. After a few years I had 3 and 4 hybrids, and a lob wedge to go with my new "game improvement" irons. As I was nearing 60, I could no longer get a three wood up in the air that well. Since we have a no posting season, I decided I should use that season to work on the clubs I couldn't hit well. I put together a set of
60 degree lob
PW (I had to have one club I thought I could hit well, and after all it really was a 9 iron given vanishing loft disease)
5 iron
3 wood
putter
I played my usual nassau with my friends, asking for one extra stroke. After regularly taking their money, they refused to give me the extra stroke.
Toughest shot for that set was the 130 yard par 3 to green fronted by water. I played a restricted swing with a 5 iron opened up wide to gain loft and hold the green.
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At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.
An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.
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At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.
An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.
What is your handicap?
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At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.
An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.
What is your handicap?
19
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At last Buda, I played SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
This year I am renting SW, PW, 8, 6, 4, 3 hybrid, 3 wood, putter, which is what I played at my first Buda.
An alternative that I have played at home is
SW, GW, 8, 7, 4, 3 hybrid, 5 wood, driver, putter.
I find that a back swing to parallel to the ground with a 7 iron goes as far as a full swing 9 iron, parallel 8 = PW, parallel 4 = 6, parallel 3 = 5 .
So, you see I can play a full sets worth of full swings, with this half set.
What is your handicap?
19
That's incredible control for a 19. I occasionally play with a short set as well, and while i certainly try to hit half and 3/4 shots, distance control is not easy to master. I figured the short set works best for players at opposite ends of the spectrum, but for different reasons. Better players are good ball strikers and have better command of their shots, while for lesser players, there isn't much difference between a 4/5 iron, 7/8 iron, etc because they don't consistently hit their clubs precise distances (i.e. It doesn't matter). I'm closer to the latter, personally.
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Brian,
I don't see many high handicappers not knowing how far they hit clubs. A well struck 7 will always go a specific distance farther than a well struck 8. When I was young, it was probably 15 yards farther. Now it is about 10 yards depending on weather, etc. The high handicappers I play with have more problem getting their handicap down due to a failure to square the club face, rather than a failure to know how far they hit their clubs.
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When I was a kid starting the game I used to have to rent clubs. Usually you'd get a bag with some odd lots...a 1 or 3 wood, something like 3, 5, 7, and 9 iron, and a putter.
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Now that is 4, 6, 8, PW, or in the case of your new set. 5, 7, 9, GW. ;D
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The choice of clubs for me would depend on the course. Those who know me know I play my home club Lehigh every so often with just a few clubs (usually four) - Driver, 5I, PW and Putter are often my choices but I vary them depending on what I want to work on. No better way to work on hitting "shots" then playing with only a few clubs.
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One pro I read said you should be able to hit every club in your bag to a pin 100 yards away.
Other stories are of pros demonstrating that it does no good to know what club they used, because they can demonstrate that they can hit many different clubs to the pin from the same location.
So what we really are talking about is the need to hit it high or not. I would suggest you need a PW to hit it high. a 6 to hit it mid high, and a 2 to hit it low. A sand iron, a club to hit it as far as possible from a tee, and a club to hit it as far as possible from the ground, plus putter of course. That's 7 clubs. That's what we should require the pros to use.
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To Tom's original thought experiment, as it applies to me and with an architectural slant:
On a 6600 yard course, with few forced carries, firm rolling turf, open-fronted but contoured greens, sandy bunkers, little rough, and a variety of recovery options, I would try to push the issue by taking the very fewest penalty strokes (ie the fewest clubs) possible. A 3 Wood, a 2 Hybrid, a 6 iron, a PW and a Putter. 5 clubs in all, with the hope that I might be able to shoot a decent gross score and an even better net one.
But if you put me on a 7100 yard course, with little roll in the fairways and with easy to putt but 'well protected' greens with rough as a primary defence both there and along the fairways, I'd have to do the opposite, ie accept more penalty strokes (ie because of the number of clubs) with the hope that my gross score at least would stay south of 95. So: Driver, 5 Wood, 3-5-6-8-9 irons, PW, SW, and Putter. 10 clubs in all
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Just personal experience....I didn't play much at all from 2001 thru 2011.
When I attempted Champions q school the first time, I played with a friend's irons and wedges, mine were to old, illegal grooves.
My second attempt, a couple years later, I prepared for, and worked on my equipment.
The balls and clubs had changed so much, that when I found the clubs to fit my yardage gaps, I had twelve clubs. I was hitting my driver about 260 in the air,m7 iron about 163. I didn't really have enough speed/height on the ball to need the other clubs. A 3 and 4 hybrid basically only flew 6-7 yards different, so I made my gap 12 yards through my set and found I only needed 12 clubs....made things simple!!! As I loose clubhead speed, I can see using 10-11 clubs tbh
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8) Pat, What's your classic driver and 5-iron speeds now. You make a very important point about distance gaps...
Tom D, you'll be amused that I've played your Black Forest, High Pointe, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Dismal, Loop, and most recently Streamsong courses with my basic set of P, 52 deg wedge, PW, 8I, 6I, 5 hybrid, 7W & 2W (12 deg)... 3-4 balls, its all I need. So is your formula proposal also for match play?
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If playing with only 8 clubs, that seems to me more reason to need to rely on the use of a laser or rangefinder.
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Brian,
I don't see many high handicappers not knowing how far they hit clubs. A well struck 7 will always go a specific distance farther than a well struck 8. When I was young, it was probably 15 yards farther. Now it is about 10 yards depending on weather, etc. The high handicappers I play with have more problem getting their handicap down due to a failure to square the club face, rather than a failure to know how far they hit their clubs.
You aren't really siting the issue...the issue is about expectations. I see high cappers expect to hit their max distance with clubs all the time without regard to the consequences should they not pull the shot off...and they rarely pull it off. Generally speaking, most high cappers in most instances should use more club than they believe to be accurate for their well struck shot. It doesn't make a lot of difference if a high capper knows how far his well hit shot goes when he pulls it off so rarely. If the mantra of golf is not about the best shots, but the misses has any truth to it, it is especially so for high cappers. I am ecstatic if I hit 10 full shots in a round as I planned...more or less.
Ciao
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In a way I agree with you, Sean. But I think any good golf shot (by any level of golfer) depends a lot of self-confidence and a positive attitude, and on the free bold swing that comes with that.
And few things can so wreck confidence and impede a bold swing as the typical advice given by better golfers to worse ones to 'use more club'.
It sounds like good advice, and most of the time the mid to high capper probably *should* use more club; but on the other hand, psychologically it is an absolute shot-wrecker to stand there and calmly think 'Well, a good solid swing with this club should give me the 160 yards that I need' ...only to seconds later get a more timid and timorous thought like 'Yeah, but knowing me I'll probably hit it a bit fat or too high up on the face, so I better go back to my bag and get one more club, just like they say I should".
After that kind of negative self-talk even Jack Nicklaus isn't likely to put a smooth sweet positive swing on the ball and hit a good golf shot, regardless of whether he took more club or less.
Which, ironically, is why I think mid-high cappers can score even better with a half set, ie they're *forced* to take one more club, and so the choice is engendered by necessity instead of negative self talk.
And that, I believe, makes a big difference in the typical outcome.
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Herb Graffis' take on the subject.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1936feb38.pdf
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I'd start with driver, wedge, putter. In between the driver and wedge would select clubs at 20 yard intervals. You should be able to hit a full swing shot to most greens at that interval. For me driver =200, wedge =90. I'd select for 110 (8i), 130(6i), 150 (9w), 170(4w). My 17 hdcp would jump to 23, and I think I'd net pretty much what I do now.
Now I play at 6000. If I had to go to 7000 I'd use 3 clubs Driver, 3 wood wedge, but depends on par 3 yardages and hazards thereon. Wouldn't enjoy it. Years ago I played PGA West. If I remember correctly blues on the front in something around 50, went back to the tips on the back and was in the low 40s because I could drive it to the fairway and couldn't reach the trouble with the 2s;tjk o ISomeeh , played
I think about $1000 should cover all your clubs, assigning $50/hr for club-fitting.
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.... I didn't really have enough speed/height on the ball to need the other clubs. A 3 and 4 hybrid basically only flew 6-7 yards different, so I made my gap 12 yards through my set and found I only needed 12 clubs....made things simple!!! As I loose clubhead speed, I can see using 10-11 clubs tbh
Nicely described Pat. As one gets older and/or become a slower swinger, the yardage gaps decrease, so the 'need' to carry 14 clubs declines.
Another reason for the guys and gals we see on TV to be limited to carrying less clubs in the bag. More partial/half/finesse shots. Let's see more skill and course management on TV.
atb
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If playing with only 8 clubs, that seems to me more reason to need to rely on the use of a laser or rangefinder.
The opposite, I’ve found.
As feel and creativity become more important, the exact distance to the hole becomes far less important.
Windy conditions and firm turf helps. Can’t imagine it being as easy playing with 10-11 clubs on a soft inland course with little to no wind.
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I find that I need an extra wood and an extra wedge on US courses because generally more carries are required...especially around greens due more snad and rough.
Pietro
I don't think of it as negative talk...more realistic talk for two reasons
1) It makes golfers look at the trouble spots...generally...most of the trouble is in front of greens...not behind...except, generally on Ross courses 8)
2) Handicap golfers rarely hit their max yardage. It will pay more often than not to take a club which you know will carry trouble...just as it is conversely true that it will pay more often than not to make sure you take a club which will be short of trouble...if you are going to lay-up then damn it...lay up. So sure, for the lay-up shots definitely take ino account max yardages for clubs and then do the opposite of what I wrote above :D
At the moment I don't have a clue how far my clubs go because of a dicky wrist and I am finding myself going long much more than previously. It reminds me of when I first started playing in the UK back when they used shorter flag sticks...it took me some while to re-learn the visuals of a shot...I was long a ton.
Ciao
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I find that I need an extra wood and an extra wedge on US courses because generally more carries are required...especially around greens due more snad and rough.
Pietro
I don't think of it as negative talk...more realistic talk for two reasons
1) It makes golfers look at the trouble spots...generally...most of the trouble is in front of greens...not behind...except, generally on Ross courses 8)
2) Handicap golfers rarely hit their max yardage. It will pay more often than not to take a club which you know will carry trouble...just as it is conversely true that it will pay more often than not to make sure you take a club which will be short of trouble...if you are going to lay-up then damn it...lay up. So sure, for the lay-up shots definitely take ino account max yardages for clubs and then do the opposite of what I wrote above :D
At the moment I don't have a clue how far my clubs go because of a dicky wrist and I am finding myself going long much more than previously. It reminds me of when I first started playing in the UK back when they used shorter flag sticks...it took me some while to re-learn the visuals of a shot...I was long a ton.
Ciao
This is really interesting to me. My experiences suggest the exact opposite: it's usually death to be past a green, but far less so to be short, the obvious exception being holes fronted by water. Plus, most greens slope from high in back to low in front, so if you're short, you're putting uphill, but long means you're putting downhill, and I'd rather putt up than down, or even across, which brings in bigger breaks.
Maybe it's because I live in a hilly area.
I can see high handicappers being generally overly optimistic about yardages, which would argue for taking more club, but if you're at all realistic, I think it's usually safer to underclub than overclub.
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George
I am not really advocating going over greens, just making sure one gets beyond the water and sand short of greens...this is what I meant by most trouble is by far short of greens. That said, lots of times going a bit long (say 5 yards) isn't a big deal. I rarely see 20 cappers wind up 5 yards long compared to 5 yards short in sand etc....and I watch a lot of 20 cappers put a load of Xs on their cards because they can't cope well with sand.
Ciao
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My experiences suggest the exact opposite: it's usually death to be past a green, but far less so to be short, the obvious exception being holes fronted by water. Plus, most greens slope from high in back to low in front, so if you're short, you're putting uphill, but long means you're putting downhill, and I'd rather putt up than down, or even across, which brings in bigger breaks.
Different perspectives. Many U.S. parkland courses have greens built up substantially at the back to provide a back to front slope; few U.K. courses do, plus the greens are slower over there. Sean would be the first to agree that "over" at Grosse Ile is dead.
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You aren't really siting the issue...the issue is about expectations. I see high cappers expect to hit their max distance with clubs all the time without regard to the consequences should they not pull the shot off...and they rarely pull it off. Generally speaking, most high cappers in most instances should use more club than they believe to be accurate for their well struck shot. It doesn't make a lot of difference if a high capper knows how far his well hit shot goes when he pulls it off so rarely. If the mantra of golf is not about the best shots, but the misses has any truth to it, it is especially so for high cappers. I am ecstatic if I hit 10 full shots in a round as I planned...more or less.
Ciao
Obviously, you play with different types of players than I do. The single digit I play with never takes enough club. The consequences are that he is short in the fairway. He would claim that I and the other high handicappers in the group take too much club, because we generally hit the expected distance, and are in trouble left and right of the green.
It seems to me that there are at least two kinds of high handicappers. Those that have a consistant swing that rarely screw up royally, so there variation is in the quality of the strike, and those who hit the ball well, but tend to screw up royally with a hitch in the swing that produces big slices, hooks, tops, and chunks a few random times through the round.
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I've tried off and on to play with short sets and always went back to 14, but only because I have had sooo many golf clubs to try. (Like 1,000 or 1,500).
The idea of shorter gaps as you age is absolutely true in my case, I long ago gave up on three woods off the turf, and carry a 20* five wood and a 26* nine wood.
Those probably make for good gaps with a driver. Something like 200, 180, 160.
I have a 28* six hybrid that's maxed out a 150 these days, but more realisically 140-45
The next logical club would be 8 iron at ~120
Then a PW at 95 or so.
I don't carry a normal SW and I'd hate to give up my 52* "long" SW. but probably could get by nicely with just the 60* (which I am NOT giving up)
With a putter, that's eight clubs and I bet I don't score any worse with them.
Next time I play, that's going to be my lineup.
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I took four clubs out my bag today for a 9 hole break on a nice winter day in DC area. Had zero impact on my game except for one shot where I would have appreciated having my 3 wood into a quick breeze. Made walking up the hills so much easier. I will take five clubs out of bag next time. Really did bring back fond memories of my starter set from 45+ years ago.
Ira
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Need!?
As in bare-minimum-absolutely-necessary-to-play the game?
By definition, one.
Anything less and you can no longer play golf. Any more and you are choosing based out of want.
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My experiences suggest the exact opposite: it's usually death to be past a green, but far less so to be short, the obvious exception being holes fronted by water. Plus, most greens slope from high in back to low in front, so if you're short, you're putting uphill, but long means you're putting downhill, and I'd rather putt up than down, or even across, which brings in bigger breaks.
Different perspectives. Many U.S. parkland courses have greens built up substantially at the back to provide a back to front slope; few U.K. courses do, plus the greens are slower over there. Sean would be the first to agree that "over" at Grosse Ile is dead.
Makes sense. My experience is virtually all parkland, with a small sprinkling of desert courses thrown in. Desert tend to be fairly brutal past the green as well, in my limited experience.
I tend to be more the second type of player Garland describes. My game is superficially not bad, but my misses tend to be catastrophic... I'm a pretty good scramble choice, as no one need play my disasters, and I hit some pretty nice shots and long putts in any given round.
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My experiences suggest the exact opposite: it's usually death to be past a green, but far less so to be short, the obvious exception being holes fronted by water. Plus, most greens slope from high in back to low in front, so if you're short, you're putting uphill, but long means you're putting downhill, and I'd rather putt up than down, or even across, which brings in bigger breaks.
Different perspectives. Many U.S. parkland courses have greens built up substantially at the back to provide a back to front slope; few U.K. courses do, plus the greens are slower over there. Sean would be the first to agree that "over" at Grosse Ile is dead.
As I say, generally speaking, over on a Ross course is trouble unless the hole is cut near the front of the green. Long at Grosse Ile is generally grassy, but usually deadly...even with greens running at 9. There are maybe 5 greens where it isn't too bad. The best broad advice anyone could offer a high capper or any capper really) when playing a Ross course is to keep the ball between the player and the hole.
The difference in the UK is often the grass is shortish long so one can do a bump into the hill. The main reason in the US for death behind greens is one must carry rough to the green...there is little option bounce shots up the slope. It is so much design as presentation.
In any case...I reiterate that I wasn't advocating flying over greens, just making sure players could reach the middle of the green without hitting their best shot. I believe the odds are with the long capper who errs on the side of more club raher than hoping to hit the perfect shot with the "right" club...that is assuming the player even has a realistic idea of how far his clubs go in all conditions...something I seriously doubt. I see many more players, probably in the multiple of 100, who are short compared to long.
Ciao
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What if the Rules stated, for every club you have in your bag, you must add one shot to your score?
Or two shots per club?
How many clubs would you want to carry? My guess is there's no way it's 14. Maybe ten. Maybe five, depending on the player.
P.S. Last month I Googled and found some YouTube excerpts for the one-club match at St. Andrews after The Open in 1984 ... which featured Ballesteros and Trevino vs. Aoki and Faldo. They all used 5-irons. They played the holes out at the far end of the course -- looked like maybe #6 through #13 -- and Seve made a bunch of pars with just his 5-iron. Watching them try to hit a 5-iron as far as they could off #13 tee was probably the highlight.
Tom,
Isn't golf a better game when there are decisions to be made and a mental element to the game? If you play with one club, or limited clubs, golf become more a game of execution and less a game of decisions and strategy. Ideally, if golf is to be an interesting game then not only should we be advocating for strategically designed golf courses but also an increase in the number of clubs allowed to be played.
Framing the golf club debate in terms of score is no more enilghtened than framing US Open set up in terms of score.
I want interesting golf. That means playing interesting golf courses with 20-30 golf clubs.
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I want interesting golf. That means playing interesting golf courses with 20-30 golf clubs.
As was written above, how is executing the same swing over and over again interesting?
The fact that you don't have the perfect club to decide on, makes the decision interesting.
Determining the distance needed, and choosing the appropriate club sounds more like table lookup than thought.
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As was written above, how is executing the same swing over and over again interesting?
How would you know?
But to answer the question seriously, but perhaps not literally, the higher handicap player needs relatively few clubs, maybe six or seven. The low handicap player doesn't need any more, but would enjoy the game more and score better with 12-14 clubs, perhaps more or less depending on his mental make-up.
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If you play with ...... limited clubs, golf become more a game of execution and less a game of decisions and strategy.
With the greatest respect I reckon it’s the other way around.
Each to their own though.
Atb
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Lorne Rubenstein column on a 10-club limit:
https://scoregolf.com/blog/lorne-rubenstein/lighten-the-load-please/
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If you play with ...... limited clubs, golf become more a game of execution and less a game of decisions and strategy.
With the greatest respect I reckon it’s the other way around.
Each to their own though.
Atb
I think on soft courses with bad architecture you might be right.
But you saw on the video at St Andrews where they only played with 5 irons that there were all types of interesting shots that could not be played with that club.
Due to the 14 club limit I do not carry a 60, 64 or 68 degree wedge. Carrying those clubs would probably not improve my score but I guarantee it would make the game a lot more interesting for me and my playing partners.
I would also greatly enjoy golf more if I could carry a 1 iron, a magic chipper, a left handed niblick, a rock iron, and a cut down 38 inch driver.
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Lorne Rubenstein column on a 10-club limit:
https://scoregolf.com/blog/lorne-rubenstein/lighten-the-load-please/ (https://scoregolf.com/blog/lorne-rubenstein/lighten-the-load-please/)
Lorne's article suggests limiting Masters competitors to ten clubs. IMO, Augusta would be the hardest course for the players to adjust to this. There are tons of holes where you have to carry the ball a precise distance to clear a hazard but stay below the hole.
Meanwhile, David E: How would the game be more interesting if you and your playing partners had a wedge handy for every conceivable distance?
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Meanwhile, David E: How would the game be more interesting if you and your playing partners had a wedge handy for every conceivable distance?
Tom,
Because on a great course that plays firm, there are multiple trajectories and distances one can use to get to the hole. If you have one club, many of those possibilities are eliminated and the default play becomes conservative. Carrying 7 or 8 wedges creates many more possible shot trajectories and landing zones.
It is contradictory, IMO to celebrate the risk and reward in architecture and not celebrate the risk and reward of pulling out the 68 degree wedge.
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The last time I played in a limited club tournament, it happened to be 4 clubs. After a ton of thought and scribbling, I took a 5 wood, 7 iron, 54* wedge, and putter.
I hit the 5 wood TWENTY-ONE times; 14 tee shots, 4 second shots on par 5s', and three second shots on par 4's. No decisions about laying up off the tee. No decisions about trying to cut a corner off a dogleg. No decisions about going for the green in two on a par five. And my goal on approach shots wasn't related to much of anything other than playing AWAY from bunkers; risk-reward was out the window. I couldn't reach many, if any, of the fairway bunkers off the tee, and from the rough I just had to get the ball back in play as best I could. Literally, my goal going to the first tee was to try to have a par putt on every hole, regardless of distance, and to avoid double bogey.
If that is your idea of enhanced decision-making and strategy, then I think I see the game differently than you. At my course, when I stand in the fairway on 18 and the pin is on the front just over a really tough bunker, I have a decision to make, and the decision centers around hitting a 7 iron at the pin, or taking an 8 or 9 and playing away from the hole and then trying to get up and down. Wind factors in, my lie factors in, how well I'm hitting it factors in, and what's at stake on the various bets factors in. But if I don't have all three of those clubs, and therefore choices, available strategies are REDUCED, not enhanced. Same with the fairway bunker on the inside of the dogleg on 9 and 11. Same with playing a cut off the tee on 10. If you limit the clubs, you limit the choices for those shots. You just play away from trouble; you don't take it on.
Look, I get it that you have to play golf differently with fewer clubs, and that you have to think your way around the golf course in a different fashion. That can be a cool exercise, and coaches of HS and college teams sometimes do that with their players, making them play without a driver, or without a lob wedge so they see the course a bit differently instead of just playing "bomb and gouge".
But the idea that somehow strategy INCREASES when there are fewer choices is just silly to me. Where else is THAT true, in ANY sport, much less golf? Is a hole with FEWER architectural features MORE strategic? Is a green with LESS contour MORE strategic? The number of available choices increases decision making; it doesn't decrease it.
(And one final note: Those of you that are talking about executing the same swing over and over, except with a different club, can stop writing that; you aren't that good. You WISH you could make a good swing over and over, except with a different club; this is NOT the way you are playing! You can insert either a smiley OR a frowny face emoticon here.)
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If you have one club, many of those possibilities are eliminated and the default play becomes conservative. Carrying 7 or 8 wedges creates many more possible shot trajectories and landing zones.
It is contradictory, IMO to celebrate the risk and reward in architecture and not celebrate the risk and reward of pulling out the 68 degree wedge.
Then I'm contradictory, I guess, because I just don't see it that way at all. To me - a guy with nothing more lofted than a pitching wedge in his bag - a 68-degree wedge is a crutch that allows a player without half-shots to make a full swing for a very short shot. It doesn't make any more shot trajectories possible ... it just makes them automatic, instead of requiring you to do some old-fashioned shotmaking.
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(And one final note: Those of you that are talking about executing the same swing over and over, except with a different club, can stop writing that; you aren't that good. You WISH you could make a good swing over and over, except with a different club; this is NOT the way you are playing! You can insert either a smiley OR a frowny face emoticon here.)
Nice post. You are a different animal, A.G., you play a game where you try to get the ball into the hole in the least amount of strokes. Playing Pine Valley, you would be doing everything you can to avoid the Devil's Asshole (my apologies to Dick Durbin) instead of purposely hitting into it. I am not sure that the DG is much different than the population at most good golf clubs. One thing to think and write about strategy, a completely different thing to execute the swing. If we are really honest, we are often just trying to elevate the ball and avoid disaster.
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If you have one club, many of those possibilities are eliminated and the default play becomes conservative. Carrying 7 or 8 wedges creates many more possible shot trajectories and landing zones.
It is contradictory, IMO to celebrate the risk and reward in architecture and not celebrate the risk and reward of pulling out the 68 degree wedge.
Then I'm contradictory, I guess, because I just don't see it that way at all. To me - a guy with nothing more lofted than a pitching wedge in his bag - a 68-degree wedge is a crutch that allows a player without half-shots to make a full swing for a very short shot. It doesn't make any more shot trajectories possible ... it just makes them automatic, instead of requiring you to do some old-fashioned shotmaking.
Tom,
I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic". Even a 60* is a club for guys that can REALLY play; it doesn't make a chop into a player.
And in any case, I don't think anybody (including David Elvins) is really advocating going beyond 14 clubs. I just think that the contention that fewer clubs somehow creates more decision-making and strategy are in play is just 100% wrong. It's just a different kind of decision-making and a different kind of strategy, a not at all superior version, and really sort of dull other than for the occasional practice round or funky tournament event, IMO.
Fewer clubs, fewer choices. Fewer choices, less strategy. Playing away from any and all trouble simply because you are limited in the shots you can execute just isn't a very interesting way to play golf, at least on a regular basis.
You put bunkers on golf courses to, among other things, test a player's ability. You put contour into greens for the same reason. You do LOTS of things in your designs to test the player's ability to overcome a challenging shot, and yet would like to see players play your courses with LESS ability to accept the challenges that you've designed? I just don't get it. At all...
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I could easily play with 8 or 9 clubs; the difference in score would be minimal.
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I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic".
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Fewer clubs, fewer choices. Fewer choices, less strategy.
You obviously play a very different game than I do. (And that's ok.) The one summer I got to play a good amount, 1998 when I was still relatively new to the game, I played a lot with limited sets. I didn't even carry any woods, I was trying to simplify to learn how to play (foolish approach and goal, in retrospect). I did carry a 64 degree wedge that I could hit about 45 yards on the button with a simple repeatable swing.
And lest you scoff at the notion that any of us have repeatable swings, I once read an article about how golf is mathematically impossible - 2 or 4 degree differences in clubface angle and/or loft become huge when magnified to a certain degree. Yet many of us still manage to play and enjoy the game, so our swings are at least repeatable enough, if not repeatable to a degree you desire. :)
Regarding fewer clubs, fewer choices, well, I think many would say, fewer clubs, more shot variety required. Learning how to hit low running shots, high lofted shots, all from the same club - why, no less a certifiable great than Seve learned in such a manner. From what I've read about Penick and Kit and Crenshaw, they did similar things. If you're simply defining a shot by its length, then indeed; fewer clubs = fewer options. But I suspect there are some out there who don't simply view as an implement that hits the ball XXX number of yards.
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, someone (and I do remember his name) once posted on here that for him, the 10th at Riviera was just a simple driver 2 putt birdie. Yet, somehow it manages to provide a challenging test, even a vexing text, for about 150 guys each year during a tourney formerly known as the LA Open...
That's the beauty of our game. It's unique to each of us.
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Excellent post, Bruce!
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George:
When I learned to play I didn't have a full set of clubs (I had real blade irons and wood woods) so we all had to learn to play different shots with the limited tools available and the balls that would wobble when out of round.
It was (and is) still fun to play when most of the time the balls goes where you aim.
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And yet, somehow, some posters on here would argue that because you had fewer clubs, you had fewer choices. If you only knew how simple the could was back then! What's really odd to me is I'd guess that's how many or even most of us learned to play the game.
We each find our own reasons to play, and play in our own way. In a weird way, I think that must be the single most difficult part of being an architect!
Except they can always drop back to USGA formulas: 20 handicappers hit the ball this far, 15s this far, 10s this far, seniors this far, women this far.... :(
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I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.
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I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.
You need to get with the times. By playing with 14 clubs, you are depriving yourself of full enjoyment of the game. Truly enjoying the game means playing with fewer than 10 clubs, with 5-6 being ideal.
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Tom,
I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic". Even a 60* is a club for guys that can REALLY play; it doesn't make a chop into a player.
And in any case, I don't think anybody (including David Elvins) is really advocating going beyond 14 clubs. I just think that the contention that fewer clubs somehow creates more decision-making and strategy are in play is just 100% wrong. It's just a different kind of decision-making and a different kind of strategy, a not at all superior version, and really sort of dull other than for the occasional practice round or funky tournament event, IMO.
Fewer clubs, fewer choices. Fewer choices, less strategy. Playing away from any and all trouble simply because you are limited in the shots you can execute just isn't a very interesting way to play golf, at least on a regular basis.
You put bunkers on golf courses to, among other things, test a player's ability. You put contour into greens for the same reason. You do LOTS of things in your designs to test the player's ability to overcome a challenging shot, and yet would like to see players play your courses with LESS ability to accept the challenges that you've designed? I just don't get it. At all...
A.G.:
We put in bunkers and contour greens to make the game more challenging.
Having fewer clubs would also make the game more challenging, in my opinion. It would counter some of the erosion of challenge caused by longer-hitting players and clubs ... because as they hit it longer, the gaps between their clubs grow bigger, so having fewer clubs means they are less likely to be able to make a "normal" full swing and get to where they want.
I wasn't suggesting it for everybody, all the time. I was suggesting it for better players and for the professionals in particular, for whom I think ten clubs is still too many.
Do you really think deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy" ? To me, strategy is deciding where you want to go, and then it's a matter of execution to get there.
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Tom,
I don't know that I've ever even SEEN at 68* wedge live and in person, but I can guarantee you that anything with more loft than about 58* is hardly "automatic". Even a 60* is a club for guys that can REALLY play; it doesn't make a chop into a player.
And in any case, I don't think anybody (including David Elvins) is really advocating going beyond 14 clubs. I just think that the contention that fewer clubs somehow creates more decision-making and strategy are in play is just 100% wrong. It's just a different kind of decision-making and a different kind of strategy, a not at all superior version, and really sort of dull other than for the occasional practice round or funky tournament event, IMO.
Fewer clubs, fewer choices. Fewer choices, less strategy. Playing away from any and all trouble simply because you are limited in the shots you can execute just isn't a very interesting way to play golf, at least on a regular basis.
You put bunkers on golf courses to, among other things, test a player's ability. You put contour into greens for the same reason. You do LOTS of things in your designs to test the player's ability to overcome a challenging shot, and yet would like to see players play your courses with LESS ability to accept the challenges that you've designed? I just don't get it. At all...
A.G.:
We put in bunkers and contour greens to make the game more challenging.
Having fewer clubs would also make the game more challenging, in my opinion. It would counter some of the erosion of challenge caused by longer-hitting players and clubs ... because as they hit it longer, the gaps between their clubs grow bigger, so having fewer clubs means they are less likely to be able to make a "normal" full swing and get to where they want.
I wasn't suggesting it for everybody, all the time. I was suggesting it for better players and for the professionals in particular, for whom I think ten clubs is still too many.
Do you really think deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy" ? To me, strategy is deciding where you want to go, and then it's a matter of execution to get there.
Tom,
I don't think "deciding which iron to pull out constitutes "strategy"". I think THAT decision is an RESULT of strategy IF there are multiple options available, or doubt in the player's mind about which option to take.
With all due respect, I believe that you are thinking simplistically about the choices a golfer makes, as if golf is about a yardage and a club for that yardage, with nothing else in play. If I'm faced with a shot of 145 yds. on perfectly flat terrain, with a perfect lie, on a windless day, to a target with no hazards impinging, and with no preferred angle for the next shot, then there isn't much strategy involved at all.
But how many times on one of YOUR courses would I face such a shot? And so on one 145 yd. shot, I might have to hit anything from a 5 iron to a 9 iron for that shot, depending on what I want to risk and what the conditions are. If I have each of those clubs, I have to decide which one to hit to give myself the best opportunity to overcome the set of circumstances that you have provided me. If I do NOT have all of those clubs, my choices become fewer.
For instance, suppose because of uphill terrain, wind in my face, and a penal front bunker, I'd like to hit two extra clubs on that 145 shot. But what if, instead of a bag with not only my "perfect conditions" 145 club (7 iron now days; I'm old) but also a 5 and a 6, I ONLY have the 7. Now there is only one way to play the hole, and since I can't hit the 7 iron uphill into the wind and carry the bunker even if I hit it perfectly, I just have to lay up. That's not MORE strategy, it's less; a LOT less.
And I feel the same way about the pros, fwiw. If Day and Noren hadn't carried full 14 club bags, and had to lay up on 18 instead of hitting the heroic second shot or the great recovery second shot, would that tournament and playoff have been as exciting? If limited clubs force a particular choice, and a full set allow for multiple choices, that again is MORE strategy, not less.
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AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.
As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.
Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?
This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...
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I have read this thread multiple times from trackman to compare my averages to the professionals.
Professionals from the trackman site
Driver 275
3 Wood 243
5 Wood 230
Hybrid 225
3 212
4 203
5 194
6 183
7 172
8 160
9 148
pw 136
Gaps 9-12 yards between most clubs
Possible pro bag
Driver 275
3 wood 243
3 iron 213
6 183
9 150
wedge 120
Putter
Gaps 30 yards with 7 clubs total
Me personally
Driver 260
4 wood 245
3 hybrid 230
4 hybrid 215
5 200
6 185
7 170
8 155
9 140
pw 125
52 110
56 95
60 80
Gaps 15 yards
If I were to carry more this would be one option
4 wood 245
4 hybrid 215
6 185
8 155
PW 125
56 95
putter
Gaps 30 yards with 7 clubs total
Example player
Driver 200
3 wood 185
Hybrid 170
5 155
6 140
7 125
8 110
9 95
pw 80
They may keep the following
3 wood 185
5 155
7 125
9 95
putter
Gaps 30 yards with 5 clubs total
Bottom line: The longer player you are off the tee the more clubs you may hope to take even with 30 yard gaps
Example 275 driver - 136 wedge = 139 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 5/6 with putter
Example 200 driver - 80 wedge = 120 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 4/5 with putter
Example 150 driver - 60 wedge = 90 yards divided by 30 yard gap = 3/4 with putter
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AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.
As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.
Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?
This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...
George,
Read it again, slowly and carefully, and with some imagination. Perhaps you can get it.
I never wrote anything in ANY post on this thread about simply having a club for every distance, so I guess I am, in fact, calling you crazy. Didn't mean to, but you've painted me into a corner. Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear. I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
I'm sure you've faced a shot that plays longer (or shorter) than the distance; that's golf. Slope, wind, hazards, lies, even temperature; all of these and more play into the decision of what club to hit besides just the distance of the shot. If I have a full complement of clubs, I can play MORE shots, not less. There is MORE strategy in deciding which shot to play, not less.
All I've said, and I've said it all along, is that fewer clubs mean fewer options; there's just no way around it. I get that fewer clubs require one to "strategize" their way around the course in a different way, but the presumption in this thread that it's somehow more skillful to play golf that way just isn't supportable. Is it easier to learn to hit 5 clubs, or 10? 10, or 14?
Surely that's not too complicated.
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... Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear. I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
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Well, with 14 driving holes, and 4 unreachable par 5s, you could be hitting 18 drivers, even with 30 clubs in your bag. That must be unspeakably dull. Then there are those 36 putts with the putter. It's amazing you don't quit the game out of complete boredom.
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If I'm playing alone 3w, 4i, 6i, 8i, PW, Putter for ease of carrying. Also I'll avoid walking in the wrong direction to back tees to save time and effort. If the course favours the odd irons I'll swop them. Playing with partners I'll add Driver and SW which is fine for me and gives me an excuse if I get crushed!!!
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Interesting how some folks are building their limited ‘set’ bottom up and are leaving out a SW.
I look at building a limited ‘set’ a different way (obviously always including a putter).
Given how many shots are played around the greens and how many greens are missed a SW or close equivalent is pretty much essential. Not just a loft matter either, flange/sole shape/bounce etc as important.
And modern drivers are more hitable off the deck than persimmons of yesterday-year.
Atb
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Thomas, it depends a bit on the type of courses you are playing. I play ground game courses so all my irons will come into play round the green. PW is good enough for exiting bunkers,
and if a short aerial is required over a bunker I'll just accept the best answer with what I have, including slinging a chip on the side curve of a bunker.
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J C-S,
Yes it does depend a bit on the type of course and I usually vary my ‘limited set’ accordingly. I also vary it depending on the wind!
Atb
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I am not sure what we are trying to accomplish here other than to have to fun speculating? The game would change how it is played if there were less clubs used probably much more so than if there were more. Take this to an extreme, you only have one club? It would be a very different game. If someone had 20 clubs, it probably wouldn't matter that much.
The reason I sometimes play with only a few clubs is because it forces you to play all kinds of different shots and also teaches you feel. Try hitting a 5I 40-50 yards shorter than your "normal" shot. Or try hitting a wedge an extra 15 or 20. Both can be done successfully with practice. Same goes for hitting a driver varied yardages and/or with a fade or a draw to adjust distance and control.
Pick four or five clubs and play a full round. It is great for your golf game and will make you appreciate your full set or for some, make you realize you might not need every club in the bag and that there is no such thing as "a gap in your yardages" because you can adjust to hit your clubs almost any yardage you want :)
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... Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear. I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
...
Well, with 14 driving holes, and 4 unreachable par 5s, you could be hitting 18 drivers, even with 30 clubs in your bag. That must be unspeakably dull. Then there are those 36 putts with the putter. It's amazing you don't quit the game out of complete boredom.
Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm. That always elevates a discussion.
For the record, I can't hit my driver off the deck, so my decisions on unreachable par 5's (which most are now) are about angles and distances. Most of the time, I use a 2 hybrid as the layup club, but with a bad lie, or a particular bunker in play, or water, that might change, of course, usually to the 4 hybrid. I carry a 3 wood, but rarely hit a fairway wood anymore, except on par 4's where driver is too much; much more control and just as much distance with the 2 hybrid off the deck, and I just don't have the swing speed to elevate even a 16.5* 3 wood anymore.
As to putting, I average 32.4 putts per round, not 36; statistically, it's the best thing I do. I putt face-on and my putter has only 1 degree of loft, so even just into the fringe, I'll almost always chip. I've been using the Paul Runyan "Rule of 12" method for chipping for about 20 years now, and I chip with anything from a 4 hybrid to a 54* wedge; I like to get the ball rolling as quickly as possible. My most lofted club is a 58* wedge, which I use mostly from the sand, and never to chip. (FWIW, it was the Rule of 11 when Runyan devised it a zillion years ago, but clubs have been delofted, so it's now 12.)
And, no, I never get bored on a golf course, except when I'm swinging really poorly and can't get it fixed. Golf is what I do for refuge from things that have happened in my life that aren't very pleasant; I get lost in the process of the game, and feel better when I finish. And I love to compete; I'd rather play and lose a couple of dollars than not play for anything. I play every local senior tournament and club event that I possibly can; probably played about 20 last year, and hope to play more this year. I had some hip trouble last year, along with family illness situations, that kept me out of a few that I wanted to play. First ones this year are on back-to-back days the first week of March. I started work with the teaching pro I work with last fall as soon as the last tournament of the year was over, and have spent the winter trying to get better; time will tell. The weather here in NC has been the worst I've ever seen, so I'm not sure how far along I am in the process.
Several posts back, Lou Duran suggested that I might not been like most others here; that is almost certainly true. And I wouldn't either urge others to be more like me OR wish my life on anybody else.
But I'll tell you this; if you want to get just absolutely roasted, go on GCA.com and suggest that it isn't good for the game to bifurcate, or to roll back the ball, or to use 14 clubs. The tolerance level here for opinions contrary to the "conventional wisdom" is unlike anything I've experienced among civilized, educated people. It gets discouraging.
Hope that helps.
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AG. that is flat out bizarre. Much like reading Sean's post about taking more club, I just can't relate to that at all.
As I read your earlier posts - and I realize this is not at all what you may have intended - I couldn't help but think you are simply viewing each club as, this club hits it this far. Period. Call me crazy, that's how your posts read to me.
Then you come back with a 5 iron versus a 9 iron on one of Tom's courses, and what happens if you don't have either. Do you not have a 4 or 8? Again, I read your post as saying, you don't have the club for the job and there is nothing left to decide. I'd read it as, I have a 4 or 8, how can I make that work?
This is perhaps the sort of discussion that would make more sense over a beer at the 19th, as opposed to on here...
George,
Read it again, slowly and carefully, and with some imagination. Perhaps you can get it.
I never wrote anything in ANY post on this thread about simply having a club for every distance, so I guess I am, in fact, calling you crazy. Didn't mean to, but you've painted me into a corner. Go back and read my post about playing in a four club tournament and hitting my 5 wood 21 times; I think that will be fairly clear. I find that unspeakably dull, rather than some sort of exciting strategy.
I'm sure you've faced a shot that plays longer (or shorter) than the distance; that's golf. Slope, wind, hazards, lies, even temperature; all of these and more play into the decision of what club to hit besides just the distance of the shot. If I have a full complement of clubs, I can play MORE shots, not less. There is MORE strategy in deciding which shot to play, not less.
All I've said, and I've said it all along, is that fewer clubs mean fewer options; there's just no way around it. I get that fewer clubs require one to "strategize" their way around the course in a different way, but the presumption in this thread that it's somehow more skillful to play golf that way just isn't supportable. Is it easier to learn to hit 5 clubs, or 10? 10, or 14?
Surely that's not too complicated.
My apologies, my post apparently did not come across as intended. I just find it fascinating that two thoughtful people (feel free to add "somewhat" before that in my case, if you prefer :) ), can have such different experiences and insights into the same question.
In a literal sense, you are correct - if you can hit any club high, low, draw, fade, all out, 3/4, etc - then the more clubs you have, certainly the more options you have. I guess it's just my experience that many of these overlap and having just the right club for every situation means the decision making is limited. But I can certainly see your side.
My feeling is simply that, with fewer clubs, the golfer is forced to be more creative with those clubs. I played 9 holes with my 6 iron last year and was continually confronted with difficult situations - having to open the face waaaaaaay up (MattWardSpeak, for those who remember) to play out of a bunker, for instance. I didn't view my options as limited, but rather different and varied. I know I didn't have to make a decision as to which club I was hitting, but if I wanted to minimize my score, I had to map out the hole in ways I hadn't previously, with a full bag.
Just different perspectives, I guess.
Feel free to call me crazy, you won't hurt my feelings, as you're likely not even the first person today to make such an observation. I've often wondered if I'm the smartest dumb person around or the dumbest smart person, so being called crazy doesn't much faze me...
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I like my clubs and would love to be able to play with more. Now I do not want to carry more, but I would love to be able to use more.
You need to get with the times. By playing with 14 clubs, you are depriving yourself of full enjoyment of the game. Truly enjoying the game means playing with fewer than 10 clubs, with 5-6 being ideal.
I know you are being snarky, but I don't play with less clubs for any other reasons than to lighten my bag and make the game simpler.
I can see both sides of the George/AG debate. Less clubs can limit options...naturally because there are fewer tools in the bag. However, less clubs can also make one more creative with shots. It might even be argued that laying up for angles to pitch and putt is more creative than whipping out the perfect tool for the job and going for it.
George
You still confuse the hell out of me. Any statistics I have seen and experience tells me, that high cappers are short of the target far more often than not. Hence the logic of saying why not take an extra club instead of relying on the near mythical "I can hit this club X yards". I don't believe most high cappers have a realistic idea of how far their clubs go unless its on the flat on a windless day :D
Ciao
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AG -
Think about it this way, if you can indulge me:
I once played a round with a guy about twice my age (30 versus 60+). He hit 3 wood off of every tee and quite often in the fairway (sometimes a 5 wood) just to reach the greens. He also chipped and putted the lights out. I played with a full set of irons (I don't know why, but I personally struggle with woods, regardless of if they're actually wood, or metal, or whatever). He was constantly intrigued that we'd walk out and by almost side by side off the tee, with me hitting mostly 4 irons off the tee. And I'd be hitting 7 and 8 irons into the greens, while he'd be hitting his 3 and 5 woods. And he trounced me.
I don't think either of us felt limited by our options, we were just having fun.
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Sean -
I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.
So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.
There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...
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Missed this debate but play all winter with half a set every winter.
Driver
3 wood
Rescue
5 iron
7 iron
9 iron
56 deg
putter
I do it because of pain in my si joints and hip when the weather gets cold and nasty so need the bag to be light.
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I can see both sides of the George/AG debate. Less clubs can limit options...naturally because there are fewer tools in the bag. However, less clubs can also make one more creative with shots. It might even be argued that laying up for angles to pitch and putt is more creative than whipping out the perfect tool for the job and going for it.
I can also see both points of view. I probably side with George by a hair that having fewer clubs requires more creativity. But I also think a lot of the creativity is a function of the condition of the golf course. You can make a 7 iron do a lot more things on a firm golf course.
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I too see both sides.
But it's apples and oranges.
AG, who is playing the game (and entering tournaments) with the wholly legitimate goal of shooting his lowest possible score, quite understandably finds all the challenge and fun and mental/emotional/creative engagement he seeks from the game in pursuit of that goal -- and, because he is a good golfer, is able to effectively utilize in that pursuit the full number of clubs that he's allowed.
The differences between *that* golfer and goal and *this* one (ie me) are many and stark -- hence our different approches (to the game) and responses (here).
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I too see both sides.
But it's apples and oranges.
It is indeed apples and oranges. I just find it interesting when two people can look at the same "fact(s)" and come to dramatically different conclusions. And I've always respected the way AG thinks and posts, which magnifies things even greater.
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My hickory club rounds usually take place with 9 clubs which is arguably one or two clubs too many. Reducing the maximum number of clubs is no answer to the distance issue but it will make the game faster, more affordable, and likely accentuate the skill gap enjoyed by superior players.
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Jordan Speith has had a tough time on the 12th at Augusta, a hole that is known to favour left handers because for them, the common short left amd long right miss stay in play.
Now imagine him standing on the tee next year , leading the Masters by one and having to decide between playing a right handed 9 iron or a left handed 8 iron. I cant think of a more intriguing test of the mental game than that. Unfortunately the 14 club rule completely disincentivises Jordan from playing left handed golf clubs.
The game would be more interesting and more skilful if it encouraged dual sides play. There is no doubt the 14 club limit has worked against this.
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... Any statistics I have seen and experience tells me, that high cappers are short of the target far more often than not.
A caddy we had at Sherwood CC must have read the same statistics. I would figure it was 125 or so from the sprinkler heads, and he would laser the flag and tell me 135. I would figure it was 150 or so from the sprinkler heads,
and he would laser the flag and tell me 165. After air-mailing 3 or four greens, I began to ignore his measurements entirely. Since I started hitting it the right distance, he probably figured he was right to tell me extra yards.
Hence the logic of saying why not take an extra club instead of relying on the near mythical "I can hit this club X yards". I don't believe most high cappers have a realistic idea of how far their clubs go unless its on the flat on a windless day :D
You may be talking about high cappers that don't play very often. At one point I had determined that my 8 iron went 150 yards (pre vanishing loft times), and I had full confidence in it, so I hit tee shots to leave me 150 to the green. Shot better scores that way.
Ciao
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Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm. That always elevates a discussion.
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I could tell how much you enjoyed sarcasm from how much you used on George.
:P
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Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm. That always elevates a discussion.
...
I could tell how much you enjoyed sarcasm from how much you used on George.
:P
Garland,
I doubt that George needs defending, but perhaps you could go back and read post 129. My post was a response to those comments; in any case, I don't know how that involves or concerns you. But I'm sure you will tell me in unflattering terms asap.
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Sean -
I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.
So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.
There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...
George
You have a 20 yard gap between irons? If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole? I never advovcated that in the least.
Garland
Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go. Why are you a high capper with such precision?
Ciao
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Great question Tom. There are certain courses I need the full 14. That being said, I could certainly play Ballyneal with a driver, 4 hybrid, 6 iron, 8 iron, PW, 58 and putter. 7 clubs. Your course gives players options. Torrey South?No options. Bay Hill? No options.Just about every Nicklaus course I have ever seen? No options.
In fact, when I go back in May, I might have to try that and carry my own bag.
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Turning up for a game yesterday I realised that I'd forgotten to charge my battery for my trolley, so instead - with this thread in mind - I loaded up a pencil bag with 7 clubs;
Driver
19 deg Hybrid
5 Iron
7 Iron
9 Iron
SW
Putter
I found that I actually preferred having fewer clubs to choose from, and certainly enjoyed carrying a feather-light bag instead of guiding round an unwieldy trolley on muddy paths. I'm converted!
The only issue I found I had was from around 100 yards. Next time I shall add a club to close the gap between 9I and SW. When the ground dries out a little in the spring this may be less of a problem.
So for me at least, the answer to Tom's question is 7 or 8.
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Duncan
Yes, there are certainly times where I don't have the right club and I have to manufacture a shot...I usually fail (as if golf should be so black and white)....but I usually fail with the right club as well ;)
Ciao
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For curiosity's sake, I counted up the clubs my partner and I used on Sunday in a foursomes match. I am guessing some of my partner's clubbing as I was not looking closely.
Me: driver x 7; 3 wood x 2; 7 iron x 1; 8 iron x 2 (once was the wrong club, should have been a 6); wedge x 5; putter x 13
Partner: Driver x 5; 3 wood x 3; Wedge x 7; 3/4 iron x 3; 6/7 iron x 5; putter x 5
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Like Sean, I often fail whether with the wrong club in my hand or the right one. I like to think it's good for my character -- since in other areas of life it happens so rarely and so helps keep my humble :)
Like Duncan, I sometimes use a pencil bag with a half set, and it's so light and easy to carry that I feel 20 years younger (and stronger) -- also good for my character.
One time, when I *didn't* fail, with a pencil bag and a half set, still stands out as one of the most pleasant and satisfying of all my golf experiences: a windy day, a longish par 3, pin up front and tucked behind a right side bunker -- it was probably a 5 iron, but I only had a 4 or a 6, so I took the 4 iron, channeled Lee Trevino, imagined a fade, opened my stance (the club face still square to the target) swung smoothly but crisply along my stance-line, heard the gun-shot-like-crack of a well struck blade, watched the ball rise up majestically and hold its line and then, as if I'd drawn it (or Lee or Ben Hogan had hit it), it started to gently fade and landed softly, middle-right and pin high and rolled towards the pin to about 10 feet....to the ooohhs and aaahhs of my fellow mid-handicap companions.
My first time breaking 80 (the card and pencil Peter) was satisfying indeed; but for pure pleasure and exhilaration (the experiential Peter), that 4 iron takes the cake.
Which is to say: golf is so great a game because it will (or at least sometimes can) give you back precisely what you ask of it.
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Sean -
I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.
So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.
There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...
George
You have a 20 yard gap between irons? If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole? I never advovcated that in the least.
You keep saying that as a hh he shouldn't be using it from 170. How far should he use it from?
Garland
Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go. Why are you a high capper with such precision?
Aren't You forgetting George?
Ciao
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Sean -
I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.
So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.
There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...
George
You have a 20 yard gap between irons? If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole? I never advovcated that in the least.
Garland
Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go. Why are you a high capper with such precision?
Ciao
No, as it happens, I have about a 15 yard gap between irons. Gap gets smaller as the lofts increase (ie 10 yards between 8-9-pw, closer to 15 with 5-6-7).
When I hit my 7 iron solidly, which I do maybe 80% of the time, it flies about 170. But if you were to look at an average, the number might be way less, as 1 or 2 times out of 10 I will flat out chunk it 20-40 yards. I just don't play or practice enough to be more consistent. So, my "average" 7 iron might be 150, but that certainly isn't what I plan for.
I just did a quick spreadsheet of 10 mythical shots by yours truly. The mean came out to 137, but the mode is 170. That's the number I plan for. Averages are less meaningful for HHers, imho.
That's why I say golf is a non-discrete game of discretes... :) Since Brent Hutto doesn't seem to post anymore, only Garland will probably get that. And I'm ok with that.
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George,
I'm a lousy golfer too so I get it. ;D
But I typically don't have those kind of length issues with my shorter irons. Its when I get to my 3 thru 5 iron that distance may vary wildly....
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George,
If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?
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George,
I'm a lousy golfer too so I get it. ;D
But I typically don't have those kind of length issues with my shorter irons. Its when I get to my 3 thru 5 iron that distance may vary wildly....
And, if you "play it forward", you don't need the 8 thru 3. ;)
Unless of course, you chunk one 20 to 40 yards. :(
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8
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8
I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.
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George,
If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?
Because he hits it 170 with a relatively easy swing. It goes 190 when he really goes for it.
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Sean -
I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.
So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.
There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...
George
You have a 20 yard gap between irons? If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole? I never advovcated that in the least.
Garland
Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go. Why are you a high capper with such precision?
Ciao
No, as it happens, I have about a 15 yard gap between irons. Gap gets smaller as the lofts increase (ie 10 yards between 8-9-pw, closer to 15 with 5-6-7).
When I hit my 7 iron solidly, which I do maybe 80% of the time, it flies about 170. But if you were to look at an average, the number might be way less, as 1 or 2 times out of 10 I will flat out chunk it 20-40 yards. I just don't play or practice enough to be more consistent. So, my "average" 7 iron might be 150, but that certainly isn't what I plan for.
I just did a quick spreadsheet of 10 mythical shots by yours truly. The mean came out to 137, but the mode is 170. That's the number I plan for. Averages are less meaningful for HHers, imho.
That's why I say golf is a non-discrete game of discretes... :) Since Brent Hutto doesn't seem to post anymore, only Garland will probably get that. And I'm ok with that.
After all that, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time I have to question you handicap. I am astounded at the distance control you and Garland seem to have.
After all that II, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time and missing miles left or right, hit less club and get into less trouble because pin high miles off the green is often a terrible spot.
In the end, taking enough club to make sure you get to the middle of green on most holes may be terrible advice for you, but I contend that it is generally very good advice for most high cappers. Hell, its good advice for me, but I am willing to take the chance of going long 2-3 times a round by playing the odds of experience in knowing that most misses for most handicap players is short of the green. They may also miss wide left or right, but short of the green is a very high probability.
Ciao
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8
I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.
Not joking at all. 8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons. I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration. For example:
1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter
Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring.
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After all that, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time I have to question you handicap.
And this is precisely what I mean when I often argue people don't understand how anyone other than himself plays golf.
Most people, on here and otherwise, seem to think the difference between a 5 and a 25 is the difference between putting for birdie and carding a bunch of Xs. It's actually slightly more than the difference between putting for par and putting for bogey.
When I played the actual round against the older guy in his 60s I mentioned before, the difference in our scores was, he chipped and putted for par, I chipped and putted for bogey and occasionally double. It didn't matter how far each of us hit the ball, it mattered what we did around the green. He had a scratch short game, I had the short game of a HHer.
Too many people on here conflate HHers who can actually play a little and absolute beginners. If you're breaking 100 regularly, as many HHers do, you're not a beginner in any sense of the word. Unless you're my friend Matt, who shot in the 90s from the start, and shoots much better now.
I hope we get to tee it up someday, but if we ever do, that likely means I actually made something of my life, in which case I'll be playing a whole lot more and you won't get to enjoy the me that I am now. :)
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George,
If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?
Honestly, I don't know how to make that change. I swing the way I swing. I don't know how to trade distance for control. When I shorten up, nothing really changes. I don't really ever hit it 190 with my 7, unless the course is baked out completely. My mythical numbers for my 10 shots were 170, 167, 172, 160, 173, 170, 166, 160, 40, 50, 110. That's about my guess for how I'd disperse 10 shots with my 7. Mean 137.8, mode 170. I don't feel like I'm going all out, though my playing partners may disagree. I'm trying to make controlled solid contact.
I don't know how to control trajectory either. My shots go high. Really high. I have a friend with a simulator like the one on Golf Channel Morning Drive and the first pitching wedge I hit, I hit the ceiling. He was shocked. He said he needs to use a lob wedge to do that. He's about a 3 handicap.
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I agree George.
I think there is a misunderstanding of high cappers' games. 12 years ago, I was playing semi-regular (5-6 times/month) and breaking 85 most times I went out, and even broke 80 a few times.
Today, I still have all the shots in the bag, I just don't have the consistency anymore....so instead of 82-83, I mess up a few shots here and there, add a couple of penalty strokes and i'm at 95....
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8
I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.
Not joking at all. 8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons. I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration. For example:
1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter
Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring.
That might be true, but Tom's question asked how many you'd carry if you had to add a stroke (or two) for each club you carry. So the real question, on this thread at least, is whether you'd save more than 2 strokes by carrying 8 clubs instead of 6. I'm not sure I would. I think that after 5 or 6 clubs, the marginal benefit of each additional club is worth less than a stroke to me.
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8
I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.
Not joking at all. 8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons. I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration. For example:
1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter
Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring.
That might be true, but Tom's question asked how many you'd carry if you had to add a stroke (or two) for each club you carry. So the real question, on this thread at least, is whether you'd save more than 2 strokes by carrying 8 clubs instead of 6. I don't think I would. I think that after 5 or 6 clubs, the marginal benefit of each additional club is worth less than a stroke to me.
I think I would save more than 2 strokes having 8 clubs vs. 6. I believe 8 is the point at which there would be less than a stroke per club difference for me.
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Carl and Brian, what the heck are you doing answering the actual question posed by the thread originator? :)
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Kalen, thanks for the agreement, that's again my point. Are you hitting the ball substantially different than you did when you were shooting 80-85? By the silly charts, you should be X yards shorter on every club (and Y on the driver!). No, you're just not quite as consistent, and not quite as efficient.
I really think most people forget how they played when they shoot 95. In their own minds, once you're breaking 80 on a regular basis, you have to be hitting grounders to shoot 95... even though they may occasionally go out and play poorly and post an adjusted 92!
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I apologize for taking this further off topic, but I'm just going to be the jerk here, because some of what is being said in this thread is laughable. The idea that an 18 handicapper can predictably hit their irons within a +/- 5 yard range (or even +/- 10 yards) is silly. To then take that a step further and say an 18 handicap player can not only hit their full iron shots within a tight range, BUT ALSO adjust their swing to reliably hit 50% - 90% shots is ridiculous!
An 18 handicap means the player's ten best scores (out of the last 20) are somewhere in the low 90s, perhaps with a high 80s score on occasion. The ten rounds not counted toward their handicap are in the mid 90s or higher. So, 18 handicappers don't shoot an average score of 90-92, they shoot somewhere closer to 95 on average.
Of course high handicappers have terrible short games. They are generally happy to have a chip or sand shot simply reach the putting surface, and routinely 3 putt. They could probably lower their handicap most by practicing their short game. However, this does not imply that their game from 75 to 200+ yards is no problem. 18 handicappers pretty much suck at everything.
Let's say we take ten 18 handicap players to a driving range and (after as much warm up as they prefer) ask them to state their average/target distance with a 7 iron. Given ten swings, how many of the ten players could hit 7 out of 10 shots within +/- 5 yards of their chosen distance? I would say 1 or 2, maximum. Many on this thread seem to contend it would be 8 to 10 of them.
Bringing it back around to the topic of this thread, the reason high handicap players can use fewer clubs (say 6 to 8) and still shoot approximately the same as with 14 clubs is because they aren't good enough for the precision offered by additional clubs to matter. Frankly, the same pretty much goes for all but the very best players. I include myself in this group of lesser players (90% or more of folks that play golf), which is why I think I could shoot about the same score with 8 clubs as with 14...but not because I have incredible control of half and 3/4 shots when I am in between clubs (I do love to try to hit these shots, and they are thrilling when executed well). It's because I am not good enough for it to matter.
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Carl and Brian, what the heck are you doing answering the actual question posed by the thread originator? :)
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Kalen, thanks for the agreement, that's again my point. Are you hitting the ball substantially different than you did when you were shooting 80-85? By the silly charts, you should be X yards shorter on every club (and Y on the driver!). No, you're just not quite as consistent, and not quite as efficient.
I really think most people forget how they played when they shoot 95. In their own minds, once you're breaking 80 on a regular basis, you have to be hitting grounders to shoot 95... even though they may occasionally go out and play poorly and post an adjusted 92!f
George
Nope, I haven't forgotten how I played as beginner or as a young adult. Sure, shots are lost around greens for me because I don't practice. But what I really notice is how poorly I hit the ball now compared to when I was a 2. I am often in shit positions these days which puts serious stress on the short game. My short iron play and long wood play is shockingly bad. I reckon if I hit the ball as well as when I was 18 my scores would be close to that period. A shot a hole lost to a 5 capper due to poor shots is a huge problem with a lesser short game.
Ciao
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...
After all that II, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time and missing miles left or right, hit less club and get into less trouble because pin high miles off the green is often a terrible spot.
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As I have stated, I play with a single digit who is always short. He has recommended playing less club. I have tried playing to his recommendations. Whereas he is short in the center, I am short wide left, and right. My scores are higher, because I am always farther away than when I play my game.
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Brian,
Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.
To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper, and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.
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I apologize for taking this further off topic, but I'm just going to be the jerk here, because some of what is being said in this thread is laughable. The idea that an 18 handicapper can predictably hit their irons within a +/- 5 yard range (or even +/- 10 yards) is silly. To then take that a step further and say an 18 handicap player can not only hit their full iron shots within a tight range, BUT ALSO adjust their swing to reliably hit 50% - 90% shots is ridiculous!
An 18 handicap means the player's ten best scores (out of the last 20) are somewhere in the low 90s, perhaps with a high 80s score on occasion. The ten rounds not counted toward their handicap are in the mid 90s or higher. So, 18 handicappers don't shoot an average score of 90-92, they shoot somewhere closer to 95 on average.
Of course high handicappers have terrible short games. They are generally happy to have a chip or sand shot simply reach the putting surface, and routinely 3 putt. They could probably lower their handicap most by practicing their short game. However, this does not imply that their game from 75 to 200+ yards is no problem. 18 handicappers pretty much suck at everything.
Let's say we take ten 18 handicap players to a driving range and (after as much warm up as they prefer) ask them to state their average/target distance with a 7 iron. Given ten swings, how many of the ten players could hit 7 out of 10 shots within +/- 5 yards of their chosen distance? I would say 1 or 2, maximum. Many on this thread seem to contend it would be 8 to 10 of them.
Bringing it back around to the topic of this thread, the reason high handicap players can use fewer clubs (say 6 to 8) and still shoot approximately the same as with 14 clubs is because they aren't good enough for the precision offered by additional clubs to matter. Frankly, the same pretty much goes for all but the very best players. I include myself in this group of lesser players (90% or more of folks that play golf), which is why I think I could shoot about the same score with 8 clubs as with 14...but not because I have incredible control of half and 3/4 shots when I am in between clubs (I do love to try to hit these shots, and they are thrilling when executed well). It's because I am not good enough for it to matter.
Ok, an interesting post.
I'll agree with you that most HHers can't give an accurate distance for their clubs down to +/- 5 yards. The thing is, I read the golf magazines and see the Shot Tracker stats and the pros (and by a streeeeeeeetched extension, the scratches and single digits and otherwise) can't do so either, not with the regularity presumed on here and in the various tables. The average misses are NOWHERE NEAR what most, on here and otherwise, presume.
I'll likewise agree backing off to reach a controlled standard is far beyond the realm of most HHers. I'd ever throw in a far or maybe even a far far to that. :)
I don't know that most HHers routinely 3 putt, but simply adding in 1 (ONE!) additional putt on each hole, going from up and down to up up and down, adds 18 strokes in a round. My chips certainly aren't to the "dead" range that Pelz desires (less than 6 feet, IIRC), they are probably more like 10-15 feet. Even most Tour Pros aren't routinely burying 10-15 footers. Again, hole after hole, it adds up.
But, it doesn't mean we're routinely 3 putting. It means we're occasionally 3 putting on a hole we're on in regulation, and usually 2 putting most holes for bogey, and occasionally 3 putting for double. Occasional is not routine, not in my book, anyway. I'm not defending, just trying to tighten up the language.
I'm happy to do your driving range test, any day you choose. I'd guess we might both be surprised with the results. Name the time and the place, and I'll be there if it's reasonable, and if not, you better be coming to me. Keep in mind, I'm basically a single mom, so I'm kinda tied down. :)
I don't play often, but when I do, I have a good idea of the length I hit my clubs. The direction, far less so, but the length, that's not the problem. Neither the distance nor really even the consistency, other than the fact that my misses are dramatically different, whereas the better golfers are less so.
And that's really my main point.
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Sean, with all due respect, and I mean that, as I greatly respect your thoughts and opinions, I don't think you really do remember what it was like to shoot a 95. It's really easy to turn a 4 into a 6 with one errant shot. Trust me, I do that all the time. And it's not because I don't know how far I hit my irons.
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I hear you, George.
Take 1 parkland/tree-lined course.
Add 1 slightly over-the-top move on an otherwise powerful drive.
Count on 1 pitch out from the woods or lost ball drop.
Assume 1 honourable man who plays by the rules.
Mix together, and a 4 becomes a 6 or a 7 in a heartbeat.
Rinse and repeat because we took up the game late and don't get out to practice.
And you have someone who often scores like a 20 'capper but who often looks/hits it like an 8.
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Brian,
Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.
To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper, and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.
Both of your responses are merely anecdotal.
Hop on the old google machine and read about golf statistics by handicap. I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average. I've also spent most of my 20 year career using statistics daily, so I have a pretty good handle on the numbers and how they work.
As for the 3 putts statement, my semantics were not nearly precise enough for you, and for that I most heartily apologize. "Occasionally" is a more apt description than "routinely." Most high handicappers are not good putters. You can cite examples to the contrary, but I am speaking again to larger populations of players.
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Brian,
Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.
To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper, and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.
Garland. Thanks my man! ;)
I think this is where better players just don't understand how much variance there is with HH'ers. There are so many ways to go sideways on the golf course....finding even general patterns can be an act in futility.
For me in general its off the tee I suck bad...and the closer I get to the hole the better...
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I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average.
That's what you're hanging your hat on? Closer to 95 than 90, on average?
That's just sad, and misses the whole point of the discussion.
Which is kinda also my point in these threads....
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I'm happy to do your driving range test, any day you choose. I'd guess we might both be surprised with the results. Name the time and the place, and I'll be there if it's reasonable, and if not, you better be coming to me. Keep in mind, I'm basically a single mom, so I'm kinda tied down. :)
I don't play often, but when I do, I have a good idea of the length I hit my clubs. The direction, far less so, but the length, that's not the problem. Neither the distance nor really even the consistency, other than the fact that my misses are dramatically different, whereas the better golfers are less so.
Perhaps you are among the 1-2 out of 10 that I cited (that would be able to accurately predict their 7 iron distances). If so, that is terrific! Feel free to video yourself accomplishing this feat and send it to me. That way we don't need to be in the same place at the same time. The real task will be finding 9 others of similar skill and showing me that another 1 or 2 out of those 9 can also accomplish it. That's MY point. MOST high handicappers can't do it. Not NONE.
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I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average.
That's what you're hanging your hat on? Closer to 95 than 90, on average?
That's just sad, and misses the whole point of the discussion.
Which is kinda also my point in these threads....
I'm not hanging my hat on any one thing. Try going back and reading everything I wrote in this thread. My view is well thought out and complete, despite your attempt to cut one sentence of mine and try to say that is EVERYTHING I am saying, when in fact it was a specific response to a specific statement that someone else made. You seem to have very poor reading comprehension and attention to detail. That's just sad!
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
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Sounds like a trip to TopGolf is in order. ;D I believe the targets have a radius of about 7-8 yards from each center pole....
So Brian you're saying I couldn't get it into one of those at least half the time at 150 yards? That would certainly fall into the +/-10 range...
And that's with crap TopGolf balls, not better ones I would actually use on the course...
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
Please stop before i agree with you.
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
BHoover,
This is the same logic I'm sure countless owners used to convince themselves that a top pro like Jack or Arnie should build their course. That a hack like Doak couldn't possibly understand or know.
There is a difference between knowing the path and having the ability to execute it on a regular basis....
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First of all, Brian, lighten up. A lot.
Did I read and dissect every post you made on this thread? No. I did read and dissect your recent one, which I called interesting, and addressed most of the points. Did you read or address any of that? No. So practice what you preach.
And lighten up. We are talking about hypotheticals. We are discussing the game we both love. We're not talking life or death here. Take a deep breath, have a beer and lighten up. I think your ideas are pretty solid, just not quite perfect. If that somehow offends you, just ignore this and have a nice day.
I nitpicked your one sentence because your response to Garland seemed to call for it. You dismissed his thoughts and used your 95 to 90 comparison to back it up. Pardon me for calling that out.
Relax.
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
Please stop before i agree with you.
My new golf goal for 2018...make a Hoover-Kavanaugh 36 hole match happen.
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Kalen,
Have you played with Doak? He broke 70 at one of the finest courses in the world. No matter what anyone may think of him, he kicks some serious ass out on the course. His poor me act is nothing more than a marketing tool.
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
You could not be more wrong in this assessment. The few of us who admit to being HHers ask questions that the better golfers dismiss or never address. We don't ever seek to push our ideas on anyone else, unlike many others on here. We don't look down on any other golfers, unlike many on here. I've played many rounds with gcaers on here, and the difference between the various levels is much much less than they would have you believe.
Did you happen to notice JK asked me a specific question on here and I answered it? Did you happen to read his response? Neither did I...
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Kalen,
Have you played with Doak? He broke 70 at one of the finest courses in the world. No matter what anyone may think of him, he kicks some serious ass out on the course. His poor me act is nothing more than a marketing tool.
I don't doubt that JK....but I'm sure its safe to say the number of owners who hired him for his golfing abilities is zero.
I mean c'mon, if you bumped into him without knowing him, you'd more think he was on his way to the local comic can or trekkie event, than build you a world class golf course.
No disrespect Tom... ;)
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What HHers do understand is how we play the game, and it's not like the rest of you seem to think, in spite of the fact that you were once HHers yourselves. You prefer to blot that out. The "better" golfers love to wax philosophic about how to grow the game (JK excepted, he relishes the extra tee times), but we understand that the game is not about your games, or our games, but everyone's games.
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George,
I didn't answer your because I respect you as a person. I had typed out a reply and decided the world had enough negative energy without my opinion. In other words, you can't troll the guy whose picture is in the dictionary.
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The reality is, the game really is more about our games. Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.
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The reality is, the game really is more about our games. Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.
No, the game is about aging baby boomers like me who spend real money joining and playing courses all over the world. Nobody gives a shit about cheap ass hacks.
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The reality is, the game really is more about our games. Last I checked the average weekend warrior is somewhere between a 15 and a 18....if they have a handicap at all.
No, the game is about aging baby boomers like me who spend real money joining and playing courses all over the world. Nobody gives a shit about cheap ass hacks.
John,
Thank you for that...you didn't disappoint! ::)
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So what do you think the median handicap is for the guys who spend $3,000 a year at a Mike Keiser property. Maybe 9-12 at worst. If it is any higher they are spending their winnings from a member/guest.
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So what do you think the median handicap is for the guys who spend $3,000 a year at a Mike Keiser property. Maybe 9-12 at worst. If it is any higher they are spending their winnings from a member/guest.
I love what he does, but how much does the total spent at Mike Keiser courses add to the bottom line of golf globally?
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You either give to the game or take from it. Once there are more takers than givers the game will die. Who do you think the people who need golf to put food on the table are going to cater to? It's sad I know but it is also a simple fact of life.
I'm really proud how modern technology has made it easier to weed out the sandbagging wealthy 15-18 handicapper. They soon give up playing golf alone when there are so many other reindeer games where they can pay for a partner. Maybe we need a new Twitter hashtag. (#me18) I'd love to read some sandbagging nightmare stories. Cause if your are an 18 and you ain't bagging, you ain't playing.
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George,
I didn't answer your because I respect you as a person. I had typed out a reply and decided the world had enough negative energy without my opinion. In other words, you can't troll the guy whose picture is in the dictionary.
Feel free to message it to me. I'm a big boy, can handle it. I'd honestly be interested in your response.
I do like your thought that the game is not set up to respond to us cheap ass hacks. I'm a businessman myself, I get that. But if that's the case, id at least like to see more honesty about it on here, if nowhere else. I really don't think the difference between us cheap ass hacks and you privileged players is all that much, in a golf sense anyway (not kidding myself on the other stuff).
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George,
Remember when you sent $5,000 to get some course built that you would hardly ever see. I'm not wasting my anger on you.
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Ok. I wish I had a clue as to how to understand or respond to that, but I don't, so have a nice day, John.
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GCA is the one place where HHers seem to be convinced they know more and/or are somehow inherently better than those who actually play the game well.
They know more about strategy, more about architecture, more about the rules, more about how many clubs should be used, more about how far the golf ball should fly, etc. It’s uncanny how much they (think they) know.
And Alister MacKenzie would tell you that playing well has nothing to do with architecting well. Probably most architects on this site would agree.
You seem to mixing up knowing with doing. I don't care how well you play (can do), it says nothing about knowing rules, knowing architecture, knowing how far golf balls can and should fly, etc. And you clearly demonstrate you don't know how many high handicappers play the game.
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That's not like you, John - tooting your own horn so obliquely. I've complimented you before on putting your money where your mouth is in support of the game/courses. Do you really mean to criticize GP just because, in a golf context, he wasn't born on third base and so can't claim to have hit a triple?
And for what? Because he's been suggesting that he knows his own game (as one individual example of one unique kind of HH) better than someone else does?
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Sean, with all due respect, and I mean that, as I greatly respect your thoughts and opinions, I don't think you really do remember what it was like to shoot a 95. It's really easy to turn a 4 into a 6 with one errant shot. Trust me, I do that all the time. And it's not because I don't know how far I hit my irons.
George
You know not what you say. My last comp I had 23 points! Believe me, I know what its like to shoot a terrible score. My re-occuring wrist injury over the past several years has made this all too much a common reality and a real frustration. Its to the point where I am now laying up to avoid the terrible miss. It ain't pretty, but it can work.
But my point is you guys seem to be dismissing the one awful shot per hole causing grief as no big deal. I think it is a huge deal as you can't score if you aren't in the park. Putting for par compared to putting for bogey is more than the difference between short games...its 18 shots! That is massive..then you tack on the putting.
Ciao
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That's not like you, John - tooting your own horn so obliquely. I've complimented you before on putting your money where your mouth is in support of the game/courses. Do you really mean to criticize GP just because, in a golf context, he wasn't born on third base and so can't claim to have hit a triple?
And for what? Because he's been suggesting that he knows his own game (as one individual example of one unique kind of HH) better than someone else does?
Peter,
I think you missed where I complimented George for sending $5,000 oversees to start a club that was little benefit to him. George is not a taker.
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Brian,
Since you are so good at statistics, and handicap calculations, answer this.
If a golfer were allowed to maintain two handicap records, would it be possible for him to alternate playing the forward tees and posting those scores to one record, and playing the back tees and posting those scores to the other record, and end up with a lower handicap index from playing the back tees than from playing the forward tees?
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That's not like you, John - tooting your own horn so obliquely. I've complimented you before on putting your money where your mouth is in support of the game/courses. Do you really mean to criticize GP just because, in a golf context, he wasn't born on third base and so can't claim to have hit a triple?
And for what? Because he's been suggesting that he knows his own game (as one individual example of one unique kind of HH) better than someone else does?
John and I are ok, we understand our places in the game.
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... At my course, when I stand in the fairway on 18 and the pin is on the front just over a really tough bunker, I have a decision to make, and the decision centers around hitting a 7 iron at the pin, or taking an 8 or 9 and playing away from the hole and then trying to get up and down. Wind factors in, my lie factors in, how well I'm hitting it factors in, and what's at stake on the various bets factors in. But if I don't have all three of those clubs, and therefore choices, available strategies are REDUCED, not enhanced. ...
Your examples like this cause mathematician George Pazin to conclude you are just determining club based on distance. You don't seem to infer what he does. He sees that you don't need an 8 or 9 iron to lay up, so you saying you will use them to lay up leads him to infer that you are simply choosing clubs based on distance. What you write seems to indicate that you don't even have an option of going for the green without the 7 causes him to further infer that you are simply choosing clubs based on distance, since he would be pulling his 6 or longer and hitting a high cut.
Also, the example doesn't seem to support your argument that strategy is reduced, as George can play with his 6 iron all the options presented as requiring you to have the 7, 8, and 9.
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Brian,
Your handicap calculations are significantly off, at least for typical USGA figures. Averaging 90 at my course will get you at least to 20.
To say a high handicapper routinely 3 putts is totally ignorant. Kalen is a high handicapper, and an excellent putter. He is certainly better than my single digit friend.
Both of your responses are merely anecdotal.
Hop on the old google machine and read about golf statistics by handicap. I've read everything I could find over the past 15-20 years on the topic, and I can assure you that over a large sample, 18 handicap players shoot much closer to 95 than 90 on average. I've also spent most of my 20 year career using statistics daily, so I have a pretty good handle on the numbers and how they work.
The problem with your little dissertation here is that it has nothing to do with what I wrote.
As for the 3 putts statement, my semantics were not nearly precise enough for you, and for that I most heartily apologize. "Occasionally" is a more apt description than "routinely." Most high handicappers are not good putters. You can cite examples to the contrary, but I am speaking again to larger populations of players.
Tour pros occasionally three putt. Low handicappers occasionally three putt. So good to see HH are on the level of those people. ;) However, I am wondering whether your use of high handicappers is a reference to those who shoot relatively high scores, or those who maintain a handicap > 18. It seems to me that anyone that goes to the trouble of maintaining a handicap is not going to three putt that often. Many with handicaps > 18 have putting as the best part of their game. After all, it is the easiest part of the game to master.
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This discussion about HHers reminds me of something a friend of mine once told me, and it rings true:
ESC was invented so that guys who played golf for 20 years could start saying they broke 100.
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Edit: taking my own advice about lightening up and removed my ahole comment...have a nice day.
Also, sorry I turned this into a HHer hate fest, Tom. Fwiw, I liked the debate between Carl Nichols and Brian Finn about 6 clubs versus 8...
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Edit: taking my own advice about lightening up and removed my ahole comment...have a nice day.
Also, sorry I turned this into a HHer hate fest, Tom. Fwiw, I liked the debate between Carl Nichols and Brian Finn about 6 clubs versus 8...
I didn't think your comments were out of line--you're usually a much bigger asshole ;D . All you've done is highlight a huge problem--most lower and higher handicaps have little idea how each actually tries to get the ball in the hole. Each group frequently talks right past the other--and golf courses/clubs suffer.
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Well maybe we have all learned why despite the advances of equipment and the ball some people are just never going to get better. Obviously a roll back of the ball will do nothing to hurt their scores and may even result in the game being more fun as they stay inside the corridors of play more often. I look forward to the day where we all can compete equally from the same set of tees and put our petty differences behind us.
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That day is already here, John.
George is probably not nearly as poor a golfer as he pretends, and, given that I've yet to be paired up with even one mid-handicapper who managed to play even close to his (apparent) standard on that day, I tend to think most are not nearly as good as they'd like to believe.
If I played an 8 tomorrow, straight up, from whatever tees he wanted, and either in stroke or match play, I'd put my money on me -- 'cause he's just as likely to shoot an 85 as I am.
In short, friendship and bonhomie are bursting out all over, as we speak -- like flowers in the spring.
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I now play with a cross between a driver and a brassy, which, like all the best play clubs nowadays, is made with a slight bulge. I have a driving iron, a light iron, a mashie, a niblick, and a putter - six clubs, only one of them wooden. If you carry more clubs, you are always in doubt which to take, and while you are musing and trying to determine the right club, you have begun to lose your confidence as well as your concentration.
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Of my 14 clubs 5 are wedges. 44, 50, 56, 60 and 64 degs. I feel like I need them all to assure myself a good chance at getting up and down from 115 yds in.
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Of my 14 clubs 5 are wedges. 44, 50, 56, 60 and 64 degs. I feel like I need them all to assure myself a good chance at getting up and down from 115 yds in.
John,
I stole that quote above from an unlikely source in this discussion, C.B. Macdonald, who was in his 70s at the time he wrote it.
I've since embraced the dark side, as well, and my bag currently holds 43, 48, 54, and 60 degree wedges and I still can't hit a damn one of them consistently. In fact, my plan is to spend much more time practicing short game this year because it's still by far where I throw away the most strokes.
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Years ago I dumped the 3 and 5 woods for a 17 degree 4 wood and have carried 13 clubs since. Although I don’t think my level of play has been noticeable as a result my bouts of indecision sure have which has been liberating if nothing else.
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Well maybe we have all learned why despite the advances of equipment and the ball some people are just never going to get better.
You were correct all those years ago when you said it's a choice.
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Well maybe we have all learned why despite the advances of equipment and the ball some people are just never going to get better. ...
Seriously, did you ever think that a person could buy a game through equipment? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. ;D
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Garland,
You can buy equipment that makes it easier to control your trajectory and thus lower your score. However you can not improve a golfer who has zero interest in getting better.
Five years ago I took a lesson I went out and shot consecutive rounds of -8 and -6. Scared the shit out of me so I never took a lesson again. I simply am not interested in changing how and why I enjoy the game. Much like you, I suck on my own terms.
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Tim's post reminded me of how, let's say, multi-faceted this discussion is. One example: as with my fairly modern set of 14 clubs, why wouldn't I drop -- without missing a single thing/scoring opportunity -- the 3 wood and the 5 woods, and replace them with a "4" wood? My Ping G2 so-called "5" wood is 17 degrees (!) and has a stock shaft that's actually longer than my older-model 15 degree 3 wood and a degree stronger than my 18 degree 2 hybrid/5 wood. Now, sure, it would be nice to have the 2 hybrid for the occasional long Par 3, but if I want I can now have a 3 iron (see chart below) that's 20 degrees, or, if I've got issues with 3 irons, a 4 iron with 23 degrees. Heck, I could play with nothing more than a modern, 30 degree 6 iron and (because of the longer shafts) basically have my traditional 4 iron thrown in there for free. Manufacturers have obviously squeezed several long irons into one tiny window/gap precisely because it leads to a 46 (or 45 or 43 degree) PW, and thus 'necessitates' a gap wedge and another and another. So if someone suggests that in their half-set they go driver, 4 wood, 4-6-8-PW-SW-putter, they may not actually be crazy (or just effing around not caring about score).
Ah, alas the chart didn't show up as I cut and pasted it, but all scrambled instead. I hope you trust me...
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However you can not improve a golfer who has zero interest in getting better.
I doubt there are many who have zero interest in getting better. But there are quite a few who aren't willing to pay the cost to make it a priority in their lives.
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However you can not improve a golfer who has zero interest in getting better.
I doubt there are many who have zero interest in getting better. But there are quite a few who aren't willing to pay the cost to make it a priority in their lives.
I would say that people who switch to hickories and zero interest in playing better. I played them for a while myself. It takes all the pressure off not caring.
The same might be said for anyone who plays less than 14 clubs.
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However you can not improve a golfer who has zero interest in getting better.
I doubt there are many who have zero interest in getting better. But there are quite a few who aren't willing to pay the cost to make it a priority in their lives.
I would say that people who switch to hickories and zero interest in playing better. I played them for a while myself. It takes all the pressure off not caring.
The same might be said for anyone who plays less than 14 clubs.
JK-I first tried to go back to 14 with the addition of a 52 wedge which really didn't help me at all and again created more indecision as I already had three wedges. Nothing has helped my scoring quite as much as a 59 degree Ping L that I use exclusively from green side bunkers and almost feels like cheating compared to what I had been using. I have never been a practicer with the exception of chipping and putting which I have always enjoyed but still only do rarely except for 10 minutes before a round. I can't tell you how liberating it is not to be a range guy and for that reason I am sure I have limited my potential. A dozen swings on the range before a round is about the limit of my practice. That said I must be an outlier according to your previous post as I do care about playing better. My son must have inherited this through osmosis who you couldn't pay to hit a range ball while he worked at the municipal course through high school when they were free. He only became interested after he stopped working there and actually had(rather I had to) to pay for balls. ;D
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Garland,
You can buy equipment that makes it easier to control your trajectory and thus lower your score. However you can not improve a golfer who has zero interest in getting better.
Five years ago I took a lesson I went out and shot consecutive rounds of -8 and -6. Scared the shit out of me so I never took a lesson again. I simply am not interested in changing how and why I enjoy the game. Much like you, I suck on my own terms.
I control trajectory by ball position. Why do I need special equipment for that?
Going beyond a standard swing, which I assume you were referring to, I sometimes control trajectory by face angle.
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Given its Super Bowl weekend, perhaps another example of a high handicapper is in order.
- He graduated high school in 1970 and went unrecruited...by any school.
- As his grades were poor, he attended Phillips Academy to raise them up.
- He was eventually accepted into a tiny liberal arts college in Connecticut where he played lacrosse, football, and squash before earning a degree in Economics.
He then took an assistant job with the Baltimore Colts for $25/week and eventually became one of the greatest coaches to ever walk the sidelines...
A "High Handicapper" by nearly every measure with slightly above average athletic ability at best...
Bill Belichick
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Kalen,
You could also mention US Open champs that turned into high handicappers once they stopped practicing, Billy Casper and Jack Fleck.
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I honestly had no idea Billy Casper was this good. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/7-numbers-billy-casper-great-golfer
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Give me a driver, putter, PW, 7i and 3i and I'd probably only score a shot or two worse than I otherwise would. I never use fairway woods as it is, and I can vary the output of a 7i and 3i enough to fill in the missing irons. On a course with thick rough I'd probably go with SW, 8i, 4i instead.
If they changed the rules to allow only 7 clubs tomorrow I don't think it would make any difference to my game. I carry 14 because that's what the rules say you can have, and I have a full set of irons so why not carry them so I have more options? Maybe when I get older and carrying a full bag becomes difficult I might consider tossing some clubs.
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"I honestly had no idea Billy Casper was this good."
And don't forget Billy Casper was competing against the likes of Palmer, Nicklaus & Player when all 4 of them were pretty much in their prime.
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8) ... and don't forget Billy Casper raised 11 children, 6 were adopted
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I am by no means a very good golfer but have typically played better when getting in a 3 club challenge. My guess is I think less and keep it simple.
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I would say that people who switch to hickories and zero interest in playing better. I played them for a while myself. It takes all the pressure off not caring.
John,
I wholeheartedly disagree and frankly find your statement rather ignorant.
My switch to hickory had nothing to do with a concession to progress but rather a return to a desired period of time and style of play. In my pursuit to play the best hickory possible I've invested more time and focus on improving and playing the best I possibly can. Attending one of the large hickory tournaments around the world you'll find quite a number of players in the same mind set.
In your eyes playing hickory may mean providing an excuse for poor play under the umbrella of using historic equipment, but my experience has been rather the exact opposite. By playing hickory I have to be a better player to score well, I have to perform because my equipment can't cover for me.
Ben
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8) ... and don't forget Billy Casper raised 11 children, 6 were adopted
And I didn't know he was THIS good!
As to the issue, there was a great thread some months ago that ranged to how different the game and GCA might be if the club number was standardized at many fewer than 14.
When I played 20x+ a year, I really liked playing with 6-7 clubs at the kooky, beguiling 2500 yard 9-holers that thankfully pepper the area...it was a great contest to break 40, and a real zest to get close to 36.
Another thing - personal improvement-wise - that occurred is that my longer iron game got better...a 3-iron became standard in any abridged set, because I got so much function out of it...using it for 200 yard drives...long fairway approaches....low recovery and intermediate running shots...using it 6-8x in 9-holes....all of this reduced the "fright" of calling it on a standard 6300+ course, with all 14.
cheers vk
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Here is a cool video of Ballesteros & Trevino vs. Aoki & Faldo (weird combination) in a One Club Challenge tourney.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlh5E9SVxiE