With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring? What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other. I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list. Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.
For what it is worth, I think the top 11 is pretty good....and in a pretty decent order.Thank you for your input, Michael. You make some very good points.
I have a very difficult time differentiating between many of the courses in that top 11, but Brookside, Kirtland, CCPP, Canterbury and Pepper Pike Club each definitely deserve inclusion in that top 11 and I am glad that they received it. As many who know me are aware, I love Canton Brookside and think it is a truly great golf course (certainly one of the best Ross courses in the country) and I really think it deserves to be that high. Obviously, some will have MVGC much higher (if you can accept the houses) and others will have Inverness and Scioto higher (I am very excited to play Inverness post changes as many of the original holes are really special), but it is also very reasonable and justified to have them where they fall. I would rely upon this list if visiting the state for golf and think Brian Finn did a good job.
However, I have no clue how you rank most of the courses after maybe the top 18. I don't think it is top 11, but Sand Ridge should be on the list somewhere, same with Coldstream,and there are many other courses that are better than some on the bottom of this list. For that reason, I would have probably stopped the list at 20 and replaced Sugarbush with one of many courses, like Sand Ridge, Coldstream, Shaker Heights, Congress Lake or Wedgewood.
For disclosure, while having played most everything in Ohio, I didn't participate...........for no good reason other than I didn't get to it.
Interesting that a sleepy little town like Dayton can muster two of the top twenty, and both being right next to each other. I'm a little surprised how low Inverness is on the list. Thought it would be top 5, especially given the work being done there.
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Glenview would be a Cincinnati public that I think would be worthy of a spot on the list if more people saw it. They've held USGA qualifiers there for decades.
I know several good players who prefer Coldstream over Camargo as a better test of their games. That's not what your list is trying to rank, but I do think Coldstream belongs somewhere on the list.
Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.Find us enough people that have played it and are willing to submit a rating, and it will be added.
Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.
Stunned with this 'Revisionist Retro' list.Moraine is now better than Scioto, Muirfield Village,Inverness[size=78%]?[/size]
[size=78%]Columbus CC ,an unfinished [/size]Reno,is better than the completed New Albany CC renovation or Sand Ridge?
[/size]Hickory Hills mention is a lower end Columbus club, at best.Never have seen a list this skewed.
[/size]Played Camargo a few years ago with a TGC member and New Albany Pro,which we both remarked we would never again drive (4) hours for this experience.
How many ballots do you have so far? Just curious how stat-significant the numbers are.
I've only played a few while passing through several times.
TCC (wow), Canterbury (wow again), Brookside (wow!), Inverness (the 2010 or so version, very good), Denison (hidden gemmy with a couple clunkers), Stonelick Hills (pretty good when I expected very little), Sleepy Hollow (scruffy but good bones).
Edit: Not making fun with my stat question, just curious...this will be a useful list come next visit to OH!
With all due respect....how is Springfield ahead of NCR?Which holes at Springfield do you find uninspiring? What about NCR do you feel makes it superior?
While both great tracks Springfield has 5 or 6 uninspiring holes.
Personally, I have NCR ahead of Springfield, but not by much. NCR had quite a wide distribution of ratings. Seems to be a polarizing course.
NCR just does not have any real weak holes with the exception of 5 and 14. 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 12, 15, and 16 are all strong holes.
I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9. I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there. Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors. It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.
I do think Camargo is rated quite a bit high at close to a 9. I think there are much better examples of MacRaynor out there. Camargo wouldn't make my top 5 MacRaynors. It's a course Ive always felt was over rated though I wouldn't turn down an invite there.
Ari,
I loved my time on the course, as I had the chance to photograph it for 2 consecutive days (did not play.) I wonder which holes you think are the weak ones, or is it a weakness that can not be ascribed to individual holes?
Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio. In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts. You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem.Saving original post #1 & revising list in opening post to reflect several more ballots.
1. Camargo 8.93
2. Brookside (Canton) 8.13
3. The Golf Club 8.11
4. Moraine 8.01
5. Kirtland 7.87
6. The Country Club 7.60
7. Muirfield Village 7.41
8. Canterbury 7.28
9. Inverness 7.21
10. Pepper Pike Club 7.18
11. Scioto 7.03
12. Springfield 6.82
13. Double Eagle 6.67
14. Fowlers Mill 6.59
15. Hyde Park 6.54
16. NCR S 6.53
17. Sleepy Hollow 6.50
18. Firestone S 6.49
19. Elyria 6.45
20. Sugarbush 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.23
22. Westbrook 6.17
23. Urbana 6.13
24. Brookside (Columbus) 6.12
25. Mayfield CC 6.04
26. Maketewah 5.98
27. Shaker Heights 5.97
28. Sylvania CC 5.94
29. Denison (Granville) 5.91
30. Firestone N 5.83
31. Congress Lake 5.83
32. Pinnacle 5.82
33. Manakiki 5.80
34. Stonelick Hills 5.80
35. Columbus CC 5.78
36. Wedgewood 5.72
37. Hickory Hills 5.70
38. Clovernook 5.68
39. Lakewood 5.65
40. Miami Valley 5.60
Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best.
I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list. Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented? Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view? Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.
How is Cincinnati CC not on the list? 1895 Robert White design.
Pete,is this course similar to Hyde Park CC,short .tight and sporty?
Agree that Coldstream should be somewhere on the list. It is certainly challenging, but it is also pretty good.Find us enough people that have played it and are willing to submit a rating, and it will be added.
How is Cincinnati CC not on the list? 1895 Robert White design.
Probably due to lack of play by those of us who contributed to the list.
How is Cincinnati CC not on the list? 1895 Robert White design.
Probably due to lack of play by those of us who contributed to the list.
Cincinnati CC wasn't on the list before I got to it. However, that was true of a number of courses in town. It's a fun, quirky old course, and I certainly wouldn't pass down an invitation to play it again. That being said, there at least a handful of courses in town I'd rather play, and I don't think it's quite top 40 in Ohio status.
I will say I think it has a great set of par 3's, and could be the best set in town outside Camargo's. I do prefer the old 8th, before they flipped that hole 90 degrees.
I couldn't agree more about the Par 3's and old 8 was better!
Following the lead of the Michigan contingent, a group of Ohio-based contributors (past & present) submitted their ratings for the best courses in Ohio. In this golf-rich state, perhaps best known for the "Big 4" of Columbus, the Northeast proves to have the deepest bench of courses that appeal to gca enthusiasts. You have to go to the opposite end of the state to find top-rated Camargo, but the list shows that you need not go far from any point in Ohio to find an architectural gem.
Notes:
a. Below list revised (December 12th) to include additional voters
b. Original list (December 7th) saved in reply #36
c. Added: Portage CC (#20), Sand Ridge (#36)
d. Dropped: Wedgewood, Miami Valley
1. Camargo 8.76
2. The Golf Club 8.25
3. Brookside (Canton) 8.15
4. Moraine 8.03
5. Kirtland 7.96
6. The Country Club 7.64
7. Muirfield Village 7.59
8. Inverness 7.34
9. Canterbury 7.29
10. Scioto 7.19
11. Pepper Pike Club 7.14
12. Springfield 6.86
13. Double Eagle 6.80
14. NCR S 6.67
15. Fowlers Mill 6.55
16. Sleepy Hollow 6.48
17. Hyde Park 6.45
18. Elyria 6.43
19. Firestone S 6.40
20. Portage CC 6.27
21. OSU Scarlet 6.17
22. Brookside (Columbus) 6.16
23. Mayfield CC 6.13
24. Westbrook 6.10
25. Sugarbush 6.08
26. Sylvania CC 5.98
27. Urbana 5.98
28. Maketewah 5.98
29. Congress Lake 5.91
30. Denison (Granville) 5.88
31. Firestone N 5.81
32. Manakiki 5.79
33. Shaker Heights 5.79
34. Columbus CC 5.78
35. Pinnacle 5.76
36. Sand Ridge 5.73
37. Lakewood 5.72
38. Hickory Hills 5.70
39. Clovernook 5.68
40. Stonelick Hills 5.65
Thank you to the many contributors who participated in building out this list. We'll soon be sharing write-ups of many of the courses on the list, drafted by those that know and love them best.
I look forward to hearing from the broader group concerning the (de)merits of the list. Any courses you expected to see that aren't represented? Any rankings unusually high or low, in your view? Hopefully this list spurs some discussion, especially about courses that don't necessarily come up often on the site.
A friend of mine played both Firestone courses last year and he said it wasn't anything special. I guess you look at the rankings here and I guess I can see why. For a course that has regularly been used for the PGA tour I think his expectation maybe was Augusta National I don't know. I like the course on TV as I have never played. By contrast he said he would rather play Urbana which I know is a Dye design. They don't seem to be even close to the same type of courses.
From Ohioan Chris Hunt on courses he has played, whose GCA account has long since been retired, acknowledging that good Ohio golf dwarfs great Ohio golf:
1. Brookside
1a. Camargo
2. Golf Club
3 Inverness (new)
4. Kirtland
5. Country
6. Moraine
7. Canterbury
8. Mayfield
9. Pepper Pike
10. Chagrin Valley (a top forty without this Stanley Thompson would be a travesty)
11. Elyria (classic Flynn with Kye Goalby bunkers)
12. Scioto
13. Beechmont
14. Muirfield Village
15. Sleepy Hollow
16. Manakiki (with cart path removal)
17. Fowler's Mill
Just one guy's opinion.
A friend of mine played both Firestone courses last year and he said it wasn't anything special. I guess you look at the rankings here and I guess I can see why. For a course that has regularly been used for the PGA tour I think his expectation maybe was Augusta National I don't know. I like the course on TV as I have never played. By contrast he said he would rather play Urbana which I know is a Dye design. They don't seem to be even close to the same type of courses.
I love playing Firestone.
A friend of mine played both Firestone courses last year and he said it wasn't anything special. I guess you look at the rankings here and I guess I can see why. For a course that has regularly been used for the PGA tour I think his expectation maybe was Augusta National I don't know. I like the course on TV as I have never played. By contrast he said he would rather play Urbana which I know is a Dye design. They don't seem to be even close to the same type of courses.
I love playing Firestone.
I think a Hoover Firestone write up is in order!
So have been away from Ohio for 4 years....a couple of observations.
1) Has Urbana made improvements in the past 10 years? If not can't see how its on the list.
2)Canterbury is the most under rated course on the list
3) Disappointed with the view on Congress, Elyria and Firestone, they are much better than that
4)Portage?
5)Ashland Golf Club is better than at least 12 of those courses on the list, it features a Willie Park Jr. front 9.
Bravo on placing Double Eagle where it fell, maybe the most disappointing Top 100 course I have ever played.
Just my $.02
I didn't know you lived in Ohio too.
2. I'd have it at 7, overrated imo, but the changes look better
3. Why don't you post your list, so we can see what you have played, why are they underrated?
4. It's a Langford in Akron, it's 1 of 3 courses I hadn't heard of prior to doing the list. It's one of the main reason in doing this list
5. I have been meaning to play Ashland, being a WPJ fan. I thought he did all 18, who did the other 9?
- Agree, also others in Cbus that are overrated.
Born and raised in Southfield, went to college in Ohio and lived there until my move to sunny California,
Here's my top 25 in Ohio in order.....
1. Scioto
2. Brookside
3. Camargo
4. Muirfield Village
5. Inverness
6. Canterbury
7. The Country Club
8. Shaker Heights
9. The Golf Club
10. Firestone South
11. Moraine
12. Kirtland
13. NCR South
14. Double Eagle
15. Congress Lake
16. Elyria
17. Mayfield CC
18. Sharon GC
19. Pepper Pike Club
20. Springfield
21. Westbrook
22. Sleepy Hollow
23. OSU Scarlet
24. Firestone North
25. Ashland Golf Club
Posting here as I was looking for a place to play in Cleveland this week.Hyde Park was number 17 on the list, and second in Cincinnati behind Camargo. Top 20 in Ohio is pretty impressive company to keep.
Not nearly enough mention of Hyde Park (Ross). I've played just about everything worth talking about it Cincinnati multiple times. Hyde Park is my second favorite course. Great set of greens with tons of movement and variety. The restoration really recaptured the corners of the greens. It is by no means short. Almost 6,700 from the tips and par 71, but it played to a par 70 for U.S. Mid-Am qualifying. Plus, the fairways are zoysia so you don't get the roll you get at other places.
Coldstream is overrated in my opinion. Yes, it's long and can be hard. But, there aren't any really stand out holes. Nothing very inspiring or unique.
Cincinnati Country Club is probably not even top 5 in the city. Clovernook is fun with a decent set of greens. Not sure it's worthy of top 40 state status though. I always thought Maketewah was overrated but I haven't played it post renovation work. None of the publics in Cincinnati are very good. If Hyde Park doesn't make the list neither should Stonelick. I do like it, but a more walkable course should have been able to be achieved on that property.
Posting here as I was looking for a place to play in Cleveland this week.Hyde Park was number 17 on the list, and second in Cincinnati behind Camargo. Top 20 in Ohio is pretty impressive company to keep.
Not nearly enough mention of Hyde Park (Ross). I've played just about everything worth talking about it Cincinnati multiple times. Hyde Park is my second favorite course. Great set of greens with tons of movement and variety. The restoration really recaptured the corners of the greens. It is by no means short. Almost 6,700 from the tips and par 71, but it played to a par 70 for U.S. Mid-Am qualifying. Plus, the fairways are zoysia so you don't get the roll you get at other places.
Coldstream is overrated in my opinion. Yes, it's long and can be hard. But, there aren't any really stand out holes. Nothing very inspiring or unique.
Cincinnati Country Club is probably not even top 5 in the city. Clovernook is fun with a decent set of greens. Not sure it's worthy of top 40 state status though. I always thought Maketewah was overrated but I haven't played it post renovation work. None of the publics in Cincinnati are very good. If Hyde Park doesn't make the list neither should Stonelick. I do like it, but a more walkable course should have been able to be achieved on that property.
Yes, Miami Valley was on our original list, but got bumped off after several more people submitted their lists and other courses rose above it. I would have to look back at the numbers, but if I recall correctly, the courses ranked in the high 20's to low 40's were pretty tightly bunched (as tends to happen in these rating processes), even with our small dataset. When you look at the average ratings, you can see that the top 5 or 10 have noticeable gaps, and after number 20 or so, everything is within 0.5.
Brian,
Great list. Did Miami Valley ever make the list?
Thanks,
Paul
First off, thanks to Ben for putting this together and everyone else who contributed. As a longtime Buckeye State resident, it's always fun to read everyone's thoughts about the tracks in my home state.
A few of my random observations on some of the lesser-discussed tracks on this list:
1. I had Denison (Granville) in my top 10; an absolutely fantastic old Ross course save for a bizarre stretch on the back 9. I've heard murmurs that there are plans to bring it back to its original routing or at least get rid of the clunkers.
2. I'm probably biased because it's in my hometown, but Westbrook CC is another one to see if you ever find yourself driving between Cleveland and Columbus. It maxes out at about 6500 yards which will deter some, but the course is a another Ross clinic in routing 18 solid holes on a tiny piece of land.
3. Ashland Golf Club another relatively short track (6400) that is rarely mentioned but also worth a play. Designed by Willie Park Jr. (front nine only I think), it's a great example of a former country club that went public and appears to be doing well. The par 5 9th features a downhill tee shot followed by a massively uphill approach to a postage stamp of a green. AGC was also popular because back in the day because they featured a beer vending machine out on the course. As you might imagine, this was a major selling point with junior golfers. ;)
4. I know there are issues with the cart paths and it could stand to lose quite a few trees, but I'm also a huge fan of Manakiki. It's just a blast of a golf course on a great piece of land, not to mention it's one of the better values I've ever played. It can be had for $20 walking during the week which is borderline criminal.
5. Keeping with the theme of short tracks (I swear it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm typically the Jim Furyk of my foursome), Portage CC in Akron needs more love IMO. If you like short, quirky Langford designs you will like Portage. I actually fall into the pro-Firestone CC camp and I'd go 8-2 Portage if given 10 rounds.
6. I had Columbus CC as a 5.5 on my original list but I'm optimistic it's going to make a Moraine-esque leap once it reopens in May. The early reports that I've heard from a buddy who is a member there sound very promising.