Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Morgan Clawson on January 30, 2017, 09:56:02 PM
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Photo from Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg
**Updated October 16, 2017**
David McLay Kidd is currently building Mammoth Dunes, the second course at Sand Valley. Construction started in 2016. Six holes were available for preview play in June, 2017. 9 holes were available on August 1, 2017. The official grand opening is planned for 2018.
I visited Sand Valley in late October 2016, August 2017, and October 2017 and have walked the entire course.
Kidd's course has some of the same great characteristics as the 1st Sand Valley course that was designed by Coore and Crenshaw. Both have a wide open Bandon Dunes-like feeling on most of the holes. There are no formal tee boxes on either course, which gives it a terrific clean look. The tee areas are flat portions of the fairways. The turf is fescue and is cut at either green or fairway heights. The absence of rough on both courses is very refreshing.
The land on Mammoth Dunes is hillier, but still very walkable. It will likely be more forgiving as there will be 120 acres of turf vs. 75 on the C&C.
THE ROUTING
The course is routed around a large “V” shaped sand ridge. Kidd used this land form, which rises 80 feet high in places, to create an interesting variety of holes that play uphill, downhill and along the sides of the ridge. It’s easy to see how the ridge impacts many holes on this routing and topo map (North is at top).
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THE HOLES
The 9 holes that are open for preview play are 1-5 and 15-18. All of the remaining nine holes have been seeded and are growing-in nicely. The superintendents have described the 2016-17 grow-in weather as nearly ideal.
Following are photos from all 3 of my visits.
Hole 1 – Par 4
The view from the elevated tee gives the player a good idea of what to expect over the next 18 holes: Wide fairways offering different routes to the green, expansive views, large greens, elevation changes, and lots of sand.
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The fairway has two tiers. The lower left side and the higher right side. Many architects would be tempted to fit some centerline bunkers into the ridge that separates the two tiers. The lack of them here is telling. DMK’s emphasis on this course is to make it more forgiving and playable than what he may have done in the past. In a recent Fried Egg podcast he offered a contrast to the concept of “protecting par”, saying his goal here was to “protect birdie.”
Hitting to the left side of the fairway can yield a longer drive, but the approach is obscured by bunkers. I like the steepness of the hill that separates the 2 sides of the fairway.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4437/36368213086_356a239000_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJAGE)
Going right may result in a shorter drive, but the view of the green is a clearer.
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The approximately 40 yard wide green fits naturally into a hollow and is surrounded by lots of short grass. This green site is another “tell” of Kidd’s philosophy. Missing the green is not overly penalized, and players can putt, chip, or pitch their ball on the green. Options = fun in my book.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4403/36368212926_ac823f55ab_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJADU)
Looking back up the fairway toward the new clubhouse.
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Hole 2 – Par 4
This par 4 offers the player several interesting lines of play. Driving right of the center bunker gives the cleanest look at the green for the second shot. But, this line requires the longest carry over the bunker. Playing left of the center bunker affords an easier carry and a more direct line to the green. But, the green is partially obscured by the fronting dune here.
David McLay Kidd said this was one of the most difficult holes to design because there wasn't an obvious place to site the green. This is the only hole on the course with a total forced carry off the tee. After watching players hit into the bunker, he said he decided to provide a safe route around the sand on the other holes.
From the tee.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4367/36306206412_e6c5234e3f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XjfNh5)
The green is still hidden from this spot in the fairway…
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4418/36016744490_73a09e5058_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WSFekh). (https://flic.kr/p/WSFekh)
…but it begins to appear as we get closer.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4378/36368212636_a1eed39fda_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJAyU). (https://flic.kr/p/XpJAyU)
The green from the side and behind.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4414/35605553793_9ef145dc3c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WfkLEv)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4417/35605553643_2a68171ec7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WfkLBV). (https://flic.kr/p/WfkLBV)
Hole 3 – Par 5
The third hole has a different feel than the first two as it plays through a corridor of trees. But, that corridor must be 250+ yards wide!
From the tee. The most direct line to the green requires a longer carry over the sand. But a safe route exists on the left side.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4332/36192316210_2c4b31e2f6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c5FU)
The sand pinches in on the left to add interest to the second shot.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4358/36192316450_55c45b5a6e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c5L3)
Approach to the large green that has quite a bit of movement.
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Green from the side.
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Hole 4 – Par 3
The first par 3 plays up the “V” ridge. The green sits behind a solo bunker. Tee shots hit short and right will come back down the hill.
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The green has a significant back to front slope.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4388/36456140181_f88d0452b0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Xxvfn4)
Neat front left pin location on this clover shaped green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4372/36192316070_45f232c141_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c5Du)
Hole 5 – Par 4
The 5th hole marks the start of a 9 hole stretch that is routed on the outside of the “V” ridge.
This hole is visually stunning and these shots don't do it justice.
The tee shot plays from the top of the “V” ridge downhill to an expansive fairway.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4348/36192312760_62087bc7be_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c4Eq)
The left to right slope of the green is evident from these front and behind views of the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4344/36192315540_377c71a0e5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c5um)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4338/36456140041_385a15859d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XxvfjD)
Here's a great look from Evan Schiller on Twitter. 5th hole is on the left and the 6th and 7th holes are on the right.
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Hole 6 – Short par 4
Short par 4s are often the most unique, creative, memorable, and fun holes on a course. The 6th hole at Mammoth Dunes has those characteristics in spades!
Beautiful tee shot to a wide and rolling fairway. Long hitters will have a chance to drive the green, which is behind the bunker on the right.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4367/36192312240_1d90ee5337_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c4vs)
The boomerang shaped green is nestled between 2 small dunes. It's 75 paces from front to back along the outside of the green!
The green is so big that I couldn't capture it in a single frame. Here's the entrance to the green, which wraps around the dune to the right. Note the position of the sprinkler.
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From the back of the green. The same sprinkler is running.
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Great overhead shot of this remarkable green and hole taken by Evan Schiller.
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Hole 7 – Par 5
The quirk continues! Uphill tee shot over sand.
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A huge cross bunker forces a 2nd shot decision: lay-up, carry, or tack around.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4454/37669428216_6a4e3bbc35_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHECh)
Short right of the green is a mysterious dark spot!?
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That dark spot is a soon-to-be-famous bunker that is crafted from the foundation of an old building. DMK’s Casey Krahenbuhl found the foundation and built the bunker. Here’s his Twitter photo from 2016.
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The green is closer to this bunker than what was planned at one point.
October, 2016. The green site is well behind the bunker here.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4387/35578018844_c49080cde1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUDu1). (https://flic.kr/p/WcUDu1)
August, 2017. The front of the green is fairly close to the bunker now.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4360/36192311850_602bdafd69_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/X9c4oJ)
Looking back at the deep green and expansive fairway on this unique hole.
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Hole 8 – Par 3
This slightly downhill hole plays from the base of the "V" ridge to a flat area.
October, 2016. Early construction.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4346/36016742880_8ff704668d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WSFdRw)
August, 2017. Kidd has created an island green; Sand Valley style!
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Hole 9 - Par 4
Very charming and scenic hole that runs along the base of the oak covered "V" ridge.
Tee shot.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4334/36542848716_7831d3299c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDMN)
Neat little scar bunker on the edge of a ridge about 70 yards from the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4331/36542848886_5d3c56c97f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDQJ)
Nice green sited at the base of the "V" ridge.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/36542848826_17fae23b18_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDPG)
A look at the routing map reveals that the green location was shifted much closer to the "V" ridge than originally planned. I think this was a good decision as this green has an intimate feeling to it, which is a nice contrast to the wide-open areas found on much of the course.
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Hole 10 - Par 4
This lovely hole moves uphill to a green situated between 2 dunes.
Tee shot in August, 2017.
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Tee shot in October, 2017.
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Green from behind in August, 2017.
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Hole 11 - Par 5
Terrific dog leg that that travels down and then up to a green that is obscured until the very end.
Tee shot to a wide fairway with offering several lines of play.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4491/37669427626_6792635836_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEs7)
Approach shots should avoid the large bunkers.
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4467/37669427756_e04f2d70cd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEum)
The green is still largely hidden from 100 or so yards away.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4443/37669427866_8289b9e02a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEwf)
The very wide green.
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Hole 12 - Par 4
A strategic par 4 where hitting it down the middle is not the best choice.
From the tee, a center line bunker forces the golfer to try to play down the left or right side. This terrific drone shot by Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg shows how massive the center bunker is. I've marked the green locations in red numbers.
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Side view of the hole taken from the top of the "V" ridge. Center bunker is in the middle with the green on the right.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4503/37669427486_7aa0175188_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEpG)
A knob in front of the green is another reminder that playing down the middle is not the best line on this hole.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4453/37669427556_f08a0da911_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEqU)
The green has a significant slope from left to right (photo taken from right of green).
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1778/42892654432_2842a437ca_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28mh4NG) (https://flic.kr/p/28mh4NG) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157469528@N06/)
Hole 13 - Par 3
Picturesque par 3 that travels from ridge to ridge over a small bowl.
It is interesting to see how the shaping on this hole has changed.
October, 2016.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4425/36368211026_4072cda56f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJA69)
August, 2017. Note how the bunker line in front of the green changed significantly from 2016. Also, the sand was exposed on the hill behind the green to give the hole more depth.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4372/36542848506_e8387e111d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDJb)
October, 2017.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4478/37669427156_0446e0f60e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEj1)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4443/37669427216_7be57c7835_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEk3)
The unique shape of the green as seen from the top of the ridge.
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Hole 14 – Par 4
This exhilarating downhill par 4 was featured in last year’s Golf Digest Armchair Architect contest. It will surely be one of the favorite holes on the course. The tee is located at the top of the "V" ridge. Long hitters will have a chance to use the side and downhill slopes to reach the green with their drive.
Computer generated image of the planned hole that I found on the Sand Valley website.
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View of the roughed-in hole from the tee in October, 2016.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4363/36368210636_0b8210075c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJzYq). (https://flic.kr/p/XpJzYq)
View of the mostly completed hole from the tee in October 2017. David McLay Kidd said he decided to remove the 3 sisters bunkers because their style was inconsistent with other bunkering on the course.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38703971221_95b9cdb20c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8YdD) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8YdD) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157469528@N06/)
Photo courtesy of Dan Moore
Now there is just 1 fairway bunker that is closer to the green. The bunker seems to draw shorter tee shots toward it, thus adding a few moments of drama.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4492/37669427076_6e7b6a97d4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEhC)
View from behind the green. Check out the steep feeder slope!
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Hole 15 – Par 5
A long centerline bunker splits the fairway at the beginning of the hole. The fairway on the right side slopes slightly downhill toward the green, allowing the long hitter to try to get home in 2 shots.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4395/36368210396_4579fe71de_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJzUh)
From the left side, the green is just barely visible (center of photo) for the second shot.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4392/36368210546_8772ae0b5e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJzWS)
Approach shot to the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4436/35578017194_3cd29a2c1d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUCZy)
From behind the green. The small valley will produce many twitchy shots, particularly when the pin is located on the left side of the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4409/35578016854_fc33498648_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUCTG)
Hole 16 – Par 3
This stunning and fun par 3 plays downhill over a large dune that obscures much of the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4428/35578016354_259fb0a2ef_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUCK5)
Looking down to the green from just past the dune.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4437/36368210096_0b556beba8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XpJzP7)
This look from behind the green shows how the grassed backside of the dune can be used to accelerate the ball onto the putting surface. While not evident here, this green may be the most rambunctious on the course! There are lots of slopes and bowls that must be navigated.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4414/35578016604_d040cb3255_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUCPo)
Hole 17 – Par 4
The last 2 holes are on flattish terrain. The 17th has an interesting hollow in front of this terrific green that has plenty of slope.
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Hole 18 – Par 5
The 18th is fittingly a BIG par 5 that is both long and wide.
Tee shot.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4339/36542848356_9946727f02_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDFA)
The final green is huge. It’s approximately 60 yards wide and reportedly has 2 sprinkler heads located within the green itself due to its massive size.
An expansive bunker guards the front of the green.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4384/35578016104_e977924d6b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WcUCEL)
From behind the green. The pitch and putt course is in the background.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4489/37669426836_2468368a0c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEdu)
Club House
The first phase of the 2 story club house was completed in 2017. The design is perfect for a course like this: casual but nice. There is a terrific patio off the back that sits next to the putting green, 1st tee and 18th green. Photo from sandvalleyresort.com.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/36592167755_ee8566b84f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XKwqC4)
The view from behind the club house. The tent will be removed after the 2017 season and construction of a new dining room and kitchen will commence.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4475/37669426716_6f992eba72_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHEbq)
Ground level rooms at the club house have charming patios.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4470/37669426626_644fac1637_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoHE9S)
Part of me will miss the ironic starting trailer that served Sand Valley well during its successful 2016 intro year.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4343/36016739790_99e3d55c18_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WSFcWf)
Summary
Mammoth Dunes provides another unique journey through the Sand Valley dunes in a region dominated by parkland golf courses. David McLay Kidd and team have developed a great and memorable course that will deliver many fun and surprising moments. It shares many of the best attributes of the C&C course: an efficient routing, playability, tremendous variety of holes, tight fescue turf, and stunning terrain. But, the Mammoth Dunes holes are unique. They have different strategies and looks than the C&C holes. Sand Valley will be a terrific 36 hole playground.
Thanks to the following for their great information, photos, podcasts, tweets and websites:
Casey Krahenbuhl - Twitter: @KrahenbuhlCasey
Dan Moore - Photography
David McLay-Kidd - Twitter: @DavidMcLayKidd
Evan Schiller - Twitter: @Evan_Schiller
Fried Egg - Twitter: @the_fried_egg > Podcast: Episode 10 with David McLay-Kidd, Episode 95 with Casey Krahenbuhl
Golf Getaways - Podcast: Epidode 11 with Michael Keiser Jr.
Jason Way - Website: geekedongolf.com
Sand Valley - Website: sandvalleygolfresort.com
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Thanks Morgan! What is the height of the ridge?
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Thanks for putting this together Morgan. Really exciting to see some of the holes pre-grassing.
Can't wait for May 2nd...
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Terrific. Thanks for the effort in compiling this post, Morgan. Enjoyed it very much.
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Jason Topp - 80 feet high in places.
Jason Way - Thanks! First time I've ever seen a course in mid construction. It was fun trying to piece the holes together.
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Terrific. Thanks for the effort in compiling this post, Morgan. Enjoyed it very much.
Jon - Thanks. Looking forward to some Links Gems drone shots some day.
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Terrific. Thanks for the effort in compiling this post, Morgan. Enjoyed it very much.
+1
That's the product of much effort, I appreciate the spirit of generosity behind it.
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Here is a forum thread on the Perfect Golf forums about the design of the 14th hole and the winner of the contest that produced it:
http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/7121-feature-interview-with-brian-silvernail-golf-digest-aa-winner/ (http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/7121-feature-interview-with-brian-silvernail-golf-digest-aa-winner/)
The Golf Digest winner was a fellow named Brian Silvernail, who I have crossed paths with a few times in computer golf design circles going back to the days of Jack Nicklaus' Golden Bear Challenge. There are some more images of the planned 14th hole in this thread as well as a short interview with Brian.
The software used in designing this hole is called Course Forge, which is an add-on to the Unity program and is the tool used to design courses for the computer game Perfect Golf. I have been using this program to design fictional courses (as well as re-creations of some real courses) for a couple of years; it is a lot of fun and pretty much the closest some of us amateur hacks will ever get to pursuing this passion.
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Looks like a great property and will be an enjoyable course. What I like most is that it seems to have its own character and doesn't remind me of any other course.
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Here is a forum thread on the Perfect Golf forums about the design of the 14th hole and the winner of the contest that produced it:
http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/7121-feature-interview-with-brian-silvernail-golf-digest-aa-winner/ (http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/7121-feature-interview-with-brian-silvernail-golf-digest-aa-winner/)
The Golf Digest winner was a fellow named Brian Silvernail, who I have crossed paths with a few times in computer golf design circles going back to the days of Jack Nicklaus' Golden Bear Challenge. There are some more images of the planned 14th hole in this thread as well as a short interview with Brian.
The software used in designing this hole is called Course Forge, which is an add-on to the Unity program and is the tool used to design courses for the computer game Perfect Golf. I have been using this program to design fictional courses (as well as re-creations of some real courses) for a couple of years; it is a lot of fun and pretty much the closest some of us amateur hacks will ever get to pursuing this passion.
Matthew - Thanks for attaching that link. Fun to see Brian Silvernail's design. That software is pretty amazing.
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Great stuff Morgan!!
I already have this right next to Forest Dunes as "obvious future visits!"
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Hole 15 photos fixed.
Great stuff Morgan!!
I already have this right next to Forest Dunes as "obvious future visits!"
Brad - thanks! Forest Dunes is on my to-do list too.
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Thank you Morgan. To Tim's point, seeing the DMK course in person will confirm the perception that the course has a unique look and feel; it is big, bold, and brawny and I'm expecting a lot of thrills and peals of laughter. Importantly, in my opinion, it is very distinct from the C&C layout.
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Wow. Some property.
Could someone please post on a satmap where it actually is.
atb
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Wow. Some property.
Could someone please post on a satmap where it actually is.
atb
Its in the USA Thomas. ;)
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Here's the location on a map:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4377/36429385795_6da681679a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Xv98dx)
Wow. Some property.
Could someone please post on a satmap where it actually is.
atb
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This is an impressive thread and cheers for pulling together all of the information into a concise and readable format. (photos, twitter, websites, etc.)
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Here are a couple new angles from my visit in late September:
Looking back at #1 from #17/18 - lots of sand!
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/IMG_3210.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/IMG_3210.jpg.html)
Somewhere near the tee shot on #18
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/IMG_3214.jpg) (http://s383.photobucket.com/user/freem109/media/IMG_3214.jpg.html)
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I'm digging the look of that 13th hole. I hope they shave the edges tight and allow for ball to back up off of the green and tumble downwards.
Looks like a great location and design for a small little teaser a la 7th at Pebble, 10th at PV & the lil' Taz Devil at Barnbougle.
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You mean to tell me they are ruining a perfectly good dune buggy site fire golf! ;D
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Well done and just what the doctor ordered on a Minnesota winter night. Great post.
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Thought I would post this original routing that was presented on TV in 2014. This routing had returning 9s. The club house location was at the opposite end of the course from where it is being built now. The location of the club house was changed so that it could serve both courses.
While some of the holes look the same, there are quite a few differences. I think this is interesting as the original plan was the winner of the “bake-off” between architects. But, the realities of building the infrastructure necessitated some significant changes.
I’m glad the course is being built a 18 continuous holes as it feels like you are a long journey that is very isolated in places.
Original routing.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4341/36429379955_b584588ac0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Xv96tR)
Current routing.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4418/36016740260_50e5a1604d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WSFd5m)
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Here's a rendering of the new club house. I like it!
Past the club house is the 18th fairway of the C+C.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4379/36429219945_04b5a4c9de_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Xv8gV4)
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From the opening post: "The land on the Kidd is a little hillier, but still very walkable. The Kidd will likely be more forgiving as there will be 120 acres of turf vs. 75 on the C&C."
120 acres is a lot of turf! Anybody know the turf acreage on Bandon Dunes? I think it's a little less than 120.
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Here's a rendering of the new club house. I like it!
Past the club house is the 18th fairway of the C+C.
(http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/morganclawson/SV%20Club%20H_zpsgzb5brrb.jpg) (http://s967.photobucket.com/user/morganclawson/media/SV%20Club%20H_zpsgzb5brrb.jpg.html)
Morgan, I wouldn't take that photo too literally, that is the 5th green on the C&C course in the foreground. The clubhouse does have a nice view into holes 1 & 18 on David's course.
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Hole 14 – Par 4
This exhilarating downhill par 4 was featured in last year’s Golf Digest Armchair Architect contest. It will surely be one of the favorite holes on the course. Long hitters will have a chance to use the side and downhill slopes to reach the green with their drive.
The hole plays all downhill from the top of the “V” ridge. But, it’s the significant side hill slope and the 3 Sisters bunkers that must be managed.
From Golf Digest...
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/armchair-architect-2016-update-construction-and-kismet (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/armchair-architect-2016-update-construction-and-kismet)
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Just reposted my photos using Flickr. Much better website than Photo Bucket.
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Just reposted my photos using Flickr. Much better website than Photo Bucket.
Thanks, Morgan.
As of August 1, nine holes on Mammoth Dunes are open for preview play: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 15, 16, 17, 18
http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/golf (http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/golf)
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/576025fa22482e70f0278a4d/t/5977550d1e5b6c546cf6155b/1500992784962/Mammoth+Dunes+Scorecard+-+July+2017.png?format=500w)
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Just reposted my photos using Flickr. Much better website than Photo Bucket.
Thanks, Morgan.
As of August 1, nine holes on Mammoth Dunes are open for preview play: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 15, 16, 17, 18
http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/golf (http://www.sandvalleygolfresort.com/golf)
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/576025fa22482e70f0278a4d/t/5977550d1e5b6c546cf6155b/1500992784962/Mammoth+Dunes+Scorecard+-+July+2017.png?format=500w)
Great visual on why courses should only have one or two tees near the previous green, and vary the par by player ability.
Where is Tom and his Olympic course design when you need him?
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Where is Tom and his Olympic course design when you need him?
Unfortunately, still not working at Sand Valley!
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Here are a few shots of my go around Mammoth Dunes last weekend.
#5
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4404/35642513273_6df861b12c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcqV)MD #5 (1) (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcqV) by George Freeman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153502704@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4402/35615150714_a1edcaa579_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WgbXuE)MD #5 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/WgbXuE) by George Freeman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153502704@N07/), on Flickr
#16
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4397/35642513133_a8a6d66f55_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcov)MD #16 (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcov) by George Freeman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153502704@N07/), on Flickr
#18
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4405/35615150504_4782170121_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WgbXr3)MD #18' (https://flic.kr/p/WgbXr3) by George Freeman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153502704@N07/), on Flickr
Bonus of Sand Valley from Craig's Porch (#18 shown)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4335/35642513043_d9482bdefc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcmX)SV #18 (https://flic.kr/p/WiBcmX) by George Freeman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153502704@N07/), on Flickr
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Where is Tom and his Olympic course design when you need him?
Unfortunately, still not working at Sand Valley!
Does that mean Sand Valley #3 is not in the cards for Renaissance? Say it isn't so!
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Where is Tom and his Olympic course design when you need him?
Unfortunately, still not working at Sand Valley!
Does that mean Sand Valley #3 is not in the cards for Renaissance? Say it isn't so!
It's still possible, but there has been no decision made about a third course.
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Where is Tom and his Olympic course design when you need him?
Unfortunately, still not working at Sand Valley!
Does that mean Sand Valley #3 is not in the cards for Renaissance? Say it isn't so!
It's still possible, but there has been no decision made about a third course.
Fingers crossed. ;)
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I made it up to Sand Valley this past weekend for a couple of nights.
The resort itself is very nice. We stayed in the clubhouse rooms and it was terrific. I thought the rooms, food, service was a little more upscale generally than Bandon (which is the obvious comparison). It's clear the business model is to attract the higher net worth crowds from Chicago and the East Coast. (While we were there a foursome from NY who were staying at Kohler took a helicopter over for an afternoon round at Sand Valley, and returned after the round).
The golf is very good.
I thought Sand Valley was really terrific, especially the back nine. The par-3's are the strength of the golf course, for me, and I thought the 1st and 9th holes were a little weak/awkward.
Mammoth Dunes is really a sight to see. The scale of the course is very impressive and right from the opening tee shot you get a feel for the unbelievably wide fairways. There are some neat holes, like the semi blind par-3, the 16th the par-5 15th, and the par-5 18th with a crazy bunker to carry if you want to go for the green in two.
Tough to judge as only nine holes are open but Sand Valley certainly feels more strategic than Mammoth Dunes. I don't think you can really begin to "figure out" Sand Valley until you've played it a few times. There are many features that aren't clear on the first play and many lines of attack that become more clear after a bogey ;)
Mammoth Dunes has a much more forgiving feeling where you can tend to just blast away with a driver (or on your second shot) with far fewer consequences for a poor shot. There are a few elements of danger but a lot less than the original course. The slopes on the putting surfaces are really benign...certainly not consistent with some of Kidd's other recent work such as Huntsman Springs. Not a bad thing just different than what you might expect.
One part of the experience that they need to figure out will be the pace of play. We were playing 4:45-5:00 hour rounds all weekend and it really takes away from the overall experience. That might work on a place like Whistling Straights but at a resort that is built on the Bandon model of "golf from sunrise to sunset" it really detracts. At one point on Saturday morning we were stuck behind 10 groups of golfers from the Outpost Club. We were on #16 green and we could see two groups on #17 and three on #18. We played again that afternoon in front of the Outpost Club and we caught a slow group on the 7th hole. While we were waiting on our second shots (the group ahead was 150 yards in front of us hitting their 3rd shot), the OC guys behind us started hitting their tee shots into us. When we yelled back that we were still in range and to hold up we had a lovely string of expletives yelled at us in return. No apologies, either. Classy.
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I made it back to Mammoth Dunes last week. I played the 9 holes that are open now (1-5, 15-18) and walked the holes that are still being completed.
I updated the photos in the initial thread on page 1. There are photos for 16 of the holes now. The design of the upcoming holes that are mostly completed are fantastic. Enjoy!
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While I only saw Mammoth Dunes in the distance and didn't walk/play it, from the visuals it suited my eye better than Sand Valley. I wasn't expecting Sand Valley to be so sparse, and dare I say, sandy. Mammoth Dunes looks like there is more turf with more pine trees left in play. In my mind I expected a Pine Valley look, when in reality it was more Streamsong. The cool thing is the courses should offer a unique experience between the two.
To echo Pat's comments, play was slow but I attributed it to being a hard walk and not easy. I played with a guy who wasn't a bad player but didn't have a really good short game - he had trouble chipping off the tight lies and chunked or skulled numerous chips. I loved the playing surface personally but if you can't play around a bunker and have pinch a wedge high and get it to stop - but can't - its tough. Can't believe the slope is that low.
Facilities were phenomenal. Congrats to the GCA members who are on the Founders list
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4372/36542848506_e8387e111d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XFaDJb)
This picture reminds me quite a bit of the 8th hole at St Georges Hill in England. It's hard to tell the elevation changes from the picture, but here's a picture of the St Georges Hill hole I found on Google:
(http://golf.turkishairlines.com/turkish-airlines-world-golf-cup/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/golf-course-4.jpg)
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I made it up to Sand Valley this past weekend for a couple of nights.
The resort itself is very nice. We stayed in the clubhouse rooms and it was terrific. I thought the rooms, food, service was a little more upscale generally than Bandon (which is the obvious comparison). It's clear the business model is to attract the higher net worth crowds from Chicago and the East Coast. (While we were there a foursome from NY who were staying at Kohler took a helicopter over for an afternoon round at Sand Valley, and returned after the round).
The golf is very good.
I thought Sand Valley was really terrific, especially the back nine. The par-3's are the strength of the golf course, for me, and I thought the 1st and 9th holes were a little weak/awkward.
Mammoth Dunes is really a sight to see. The scale of the course is very impressive and right from the opening tee shot you get a feel for the unbelievably wide fairways. There are some neat holes, like the semi blind par-3, the 16th the par-5 15th, and the par-5 18th with a crazy bunker to carry if you want to go for the green in two.
Tough to judge as only nine holes are open but Sand Valley certainly feels more strategic than Mammoth Dunes. I don't think you can really begin to "figure out" Sand Valley until you've played it a few times. There are many features that aren't clear on the first play and many lines of attack that become more clear after a bogey ;)
Mammoth Dunes has a much more forgiving feeling where you can tend to just blast away with a driver (or on your second shot) with far fewer consequences for a poor shot. There are a few elements of danger but a lot less than the original course. The slopes on the putting surfaces are really benign...certainly not consistent with some of Kidd's other recent work such as Huntsman Springs. Not a bad thing just different than what you might expect.
One part of the experience that they need to figure out will be the pace of play. We were playing 4:45-5:00 hour rounds all weekend and it really takes away from the overall experience. That might work on a place like Whistling Straights but at a resort that is built on the Bandon model of "golf from sunrise to sunset" it really detracts. At one point on Saturday morning we were stuck behind 10 groups of golfers from the Outpost Club. We were on #16 green and we could see two groups on #17 and three on #18. We played again that afternoon in front of the Outpost Club and we caught a slow group on the 7th hole. While we were waiting on our second shots (the group ahead was 150 yards in front of us hitting their 3rd shot), the OC guys behind us started hitting their tee shots into us. When we yelled back that we were still in range and to hold up we had a lovely string of expletives yelled at us in return. No apologies, either. Classy.
Do they have any marshals out there? At Bandon, there was one every three holes to speed up play.
Do they groom and smooth out all those bunkers? Or are they more like waste areas?
What about carts? Did you see anyone taking a cart? High end golfers often don't like to walk.
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PC Craig,
Thanks for the write up.
Do you have any insight on the Par 3 course being completed in 2017?
Thanks.
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PC Craig,
Thanks for the write up.
Do you have any insight on the Par 3 course being completed in 2017?
Thanks.
Hi Steve,
I am sure others here will have a lot more insight than myself with regards to the par-3. I just received an e-mail yesterday saying 6 holes of the par-3 will be open on September 1st. They had (yellow) pins on all of the greens last weekend, and from a distance it certainly looked playable. I only took a peek at it and it looks like a lot of fun.
One thing I found is that both the courses at Sand Valley are pretty tough walks...both are more equivalent to Bandon Trails than Bandon Dunes/Pacific Dunes. I walk nearly every round I play and after 36 I was feeling it a bit. A 17-hole par-3 course looks a lot more inviting at the end of the day than going back out on one of the two "big" courses.
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Do they have any marshals out there? At Bandon, there was one every three holes to speed up play.
Do they groom and smooth out all those bunkers? Or are they more like waste areas?
What about carts? Did you see anyone taking a cart? High end golfers often don't like to walk.
They had a few marshals, but when we asked about slow play we received a few shrugs and "all you can do is keep up with the group ahead of you." We got done with the third hole at Sand Valley on Saturday morning and I asked the ranger if it was going to be this slow all day and she responded "you're right on pace!" She wasn't aware that we teed off 20 minutes early...
There were some marshals that were more helpful. One in particular was nice enough to call over to Mammoth Dunes to see if we could play our "back" nine over there after our front nine was slow going.
All the bunkers on Sand Valley that are reasonably in play have rakes. So I played them as hazards all weekend and not "waste" areas. The sand itself is interesting...it seemed a lot heavier than at Bandon (for example). I received some nasty plugged lies in that heavy sand and routine greenside shots can be pretty tough to judge. They are a hazard, for sure, and one buddy said as much when he said "the bunkers are actually hazards here." Would be curious to hear if others thought the same thing about the natural sand there.
I didn't see any carts. Saw lots of caddies. I believe you need a note from a Dr. to get a cart (like Bandon?).
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I was there in June and pace of play was an issue, as well. The first day, a Thursday, was fine. We played 36 and while it wasn't face paced, it was smooth. We played 18 on Friday morning (our getaway day) and got stuck behind 4 older gentlemen that were seeing the course for the first time. They didn't have caddies or a forecaddie and walked with rickshas. We smelled trouble right then and there These guys weren't good and lacked some etiquette. I'm not knocking their skill level...I play with high handicaps that can get around quickly...but these guys just needed some caddie assistance. SV is a tough walk, as mentioned prior, and there is a ton of sand as you can imagine. These guys were hitting into the sand from the fairway and instead of coming back into the fairway sideways they continued to try and carry the long bunkers over and over. Hit, rake, hit, rake, go back for the riskha. Again, for a group like that, one forecaddie would have made a world of difference. Plus, if one hasn't seen the course, it is very tricky to figure out where to go and what lines to take.
I sent a follow up message to some of the upper management I've gotten to know and they are aware of the issue. I suggested they at least have mandatory forecaddies before noon on busy days. If you are making the hike and spending the dough what's an extra $30/man?
Oh, and they had rangers w/clipboards scattered throughout the course checking times but I'm not sure how much power they have/what they could do.
Lastly, with five par 5s and five par 3s pace might always be an issue, esp given the tough walk and massive amounts of sand.
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To echo Pat's comments, play was slow but I attributed it to being a hard walk and not easy. I played with a guy who wasn't a bad player but didn't have a really good short game - he had trouble chipping off the tight lies and chunked or skulled numerous chips. I loved the playing surface personally but if you can't play around a bunker and have pinch a wedge high and get it to stop - but can't - its tough. Can't believe the slope is that low.
Ryan,
I thought the playing surfaces were terrific but you are correct they are tough if you are used to a more traditional Midwest (green) fairway. The greens are also very undulating and you would have to imagine 3-putts are common among 15+ handicappers.
To be fair, we were playing on a weekend and behind a large group playing a tournament. Hopefully the pace of play gets better when all 18 on Mammoth Dunes opens up letting the groups spread out a bit.
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I don't feel that the walk on the Sand Valley course is that difficult from a terrain perspective. I think the walk at Mammoth Dunes will be slightly more difficult. However, you are exposed to full sunlight for 4-5 hours, and that takes a toll. Eating correctly and being hydrated is important.
Regarding the sand - I agree that it's heavier than sand found in many traditional traps. You have to take a good whack at it!
The Sand Valley Resort website says the 17 hole short course will be open in Spring, 2018. People staying at Sand Valley lodging in September and October, 2017 can play complimentary 6 holes loops.
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I was fortunate to play a few additional holes beyond the 9 holes open for preview play at Mammoth Dunes. Here are a few pictures from that round:
Hole 6, short Par 4:
Tee shot
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/UiGsY1.jpg)
Approach:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/923/Co3YsL.jpg)
Green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/G6Pvmq.jpg)
Hole 7, par 5:
Tee:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/WgjuzE.jpg)
Fairway:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/kVE9O3.jpg)
Approach:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/I0k326.jpg)
Greenside:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/923/Rtt3Yi.jpg)
Looking back from the green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/KNioRA.jpg)
8th hole, downhill par 3:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/8LjYXG.jpg)
Looking back from the green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/hnLlWV.jpg)
Hole 9, par 4:
Tee area:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/yBJiT6.jpg)
Fairway:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/X41els.jpg)
Green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/wXB6Uh.jpg)
Panoramic view of the green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/E188sA.jpg)
Hole 10: short par 4
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/923/5ME624.jpg)
Fairway:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/B5uNVA.jpg)
Green:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/4UqTxX.jpg)
A few holes were still not open for play:
11 hasn't fully grown in:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/923/PtChzx.jpg)
12 looks almost ready:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/922/SmJrJs.jpg)
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I just updated the first 3 posts on page 1 to include photos of all of the holes.
All 18 holes are now grassed and growing-in nicely. The last 3 holes to be completed - 11,12,13 - turned out great, and are some of the strongest on the course.
Sand Valley will likely close for the season on November 5. Get thee to 'Sconny in the next few weeks to sample this fun golf course.
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Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs? I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.
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Great tour Morgan!
I had to laugh at the change to the Armchair Architect hole. Obviously DMK and Mr. Keiser's prerogative, but after all the marketing and publicity with the contest, the guy visiting to "approve" the rough construction, etc...it's hilarious that the hole's main feature is gone and it has nothing to do with him any more!
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Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs? I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.
No. Not in any way. Green and hole are completely different.
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Great tour Morgan!
I had to laugh at the change to the Armchair Architect hole. Obviously DMK and Mr. Keiser's prerogative, but after all the marketing and publicity with the contest, the guy visiting to "approve" the rough construction, etc...it's hilarious that the hole's main feature is gone and it has nothing to do with him any more!
Thanks Brad!
The general lay-out of the hole and green location have remained the same based on what I've seen over the last couple of years. Taking-out the 3 bunkers definitely alters the tee shot considerations. But, long hitters would have just flown them anyway.
And to be fair, DMK has made changes to bunkers that his own guys roughed-in (see 13th hole for an example). I think they will keep tinkering with the bunkers next year, particularly on the fairway margins.
The 14th tee is one of the really special spots on the course. It's riveting to watch what happens with the tee shots. And the view from up there is terrific.
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Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs? I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.
You'll find out Sunday!!
I drove 6 last Monday with pin far right. Green is currently too slow to use slopes to sling a putt around from front or middle left to back right but that will change as it gets up to same speed as Sand Valley.
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Is the 6th hole similar to 7 at Crystal Downs? I see some resemblance although the scale seems completely different.
You'll find out Sunday!! I drove 6 last Monday with pin far right. Green is currently too slow to use slopes to sling a putt around from front or middle left to back right but that will change as it gets up to same speed as Sand Valley.
Dan, you just have to hit it a little harder!
I love #6. Lots of options and fun.
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Enjoyed a lovely visit to Sand Valley this weekend. Here are a few shots taken on the par 3 course. I was sufficiently confused that I have no idea what holes these pictures show. Then again, I am not sure anyone knows the exact sequence of holes. We basically determined them by committee.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4450/37835823766_ee58601c5a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZDque5)106 (https://flic.kr/p/ZDque5) by Jason Topp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151882124@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4498/37884428581_ef83ccb4ab_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHAK8)109 (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHAK8) by Jason Topp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151882124@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/37835823916_9a3656dc11_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZDqugE)108 (https://flic.kr/p/ZDqugE) by Jason Topp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151882124@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/37884428801_30e2160a11_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHANV)107 (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHANV) by Jason Topp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151882124@N03/), on Flickr
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Thanks for posting, I haven't seen many photos of the course since I left in July. Photos are great and happy to see another great grow-in by Rob, Lucas and company. I labeled the photos for you below.
#13
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4450/37835823766_ee58601c5a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZDque5)
#8
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4498/37884428581_ef83ccb4ab_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHAK8)
#6 From 5 green
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/37835823916_9a3656dc11_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZDqugE)
#3 Green and some trees from behind
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/37884428801_30e2160a11_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZHHANV)
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I can provide some insight into the contest for the 14th hole. I was fortunate enough to be present when Brian Silvernail (the contest winner) was brought up here. Brian is a friend of mine and I actually told him about the contest, otherwise he probably wouldn't have known about it. We are both interested in golf course architecture and have created courses for computer games and simulators for many years. I'm particularly interested in the strategy of golf holes and routings and prefer to use real pieces of land when creating fictional courses for games. I'm local to Sand Valley and it's been a dream come true to see the process of courses like these being built not far from my hometown.
Brian's thinking behind his original design for the hole was a risk/reward where you could challenge the right bunkers with the driver or choose a layup shot down the left side. From the layup you could either hit an uphill wedge shot over sand into the green or play a lower shot to the right using the same contour that you would with driver from the tee.
The concern we were told was that bringing the fairway all the way back to the layup area down the left side would be a problem for drainage. This is the low spot surrounded by 60+ feet hillsides on the right and left and gentle slopes coming in from front and beyond. As you can imagine, he would defer to the experts on this as it is something us computer/simulator course designers don't usually think about. So this area has been left as a sandy waste area.
Another concern was that the right bunkers would discourage players who couldn't consistently carry them from taking on the line required to go for the green, thus causing the hole to favor longer ball hitters too much. With the left layup area gone, a plateau area a little left of where the bunkers used to be became the layup spot. It leaves a clear view and a fairly level lie for a full wedge shot. You may consider playing to this spot because there is still a risk to a mishit when going for the green. Instead of ending up in a bunker about 120 yards out, balls coming up short of reaching the green roll down into a lower section of fairway in front of the green leaving an awkward 50 yard pitch shot uphill over a bunker. But with a carry not required to go for the green it is less intimidating (maybe even enticing? ;D ) for the average golfer to go for it now.
The tee positioning changed by collective agreement. It was further left, down the slope originally. I don't remember who suggested it but as soon as it was suggested I had a pretty good idea it was going to be better and when we walked up there it was confirmed. Everyone agreed the view was more stunning and the angle encouraged the ball to roll down the side of the hill more.
They also added an aiming bunker on the top right side of the hill approximately in line with the front of the green that was to be flared up so balls couldn't roll into it. They had Brian flag out the shape of this bunker. They also let him run the bulldozer and excavator to get a sense of what shaping holes is like in the real world. All of that was decided upon Brian's visit to the site and he agreed with the changes. The fairway bunkers were already gone when he visited. I don't know if they would have put the fairway bunkers back in if he wanted them back but it didn't come to that.
David also flagged out the grass line around the aiming bunker while we were there, leaving only a narrow strip of grass around its right side. I thought there should be more grass around the right side so the player could play the slope as high as they wanted and a miss back behind the bunker to the right would roll into a collection area of fairway or sand behind the green. I didn't see how balls could ever get to this area without that. I mentioned it but since I was neither the contest winner nor the architect I figured it wasn't my place to push for it. :) That aiming bunker now has no grass around the right side of it. It is a finger of sand coming out of the rest of the waste area sand on the right.
Another change since Brian was up here was that a bunker was added on a direct line to the green from the tee to prevent bombers from taking this line and instead forcing them to play the slope. At least for them this may bring that fairway/sandy area back right of the green back into play if they overpower the slope. It could require more of finesse shot for them to catch the green. This pic illustrates it pretty well because you can see the shading of where the fairway starts to fall away in a diagonal line from the finger of sand to the back of the green.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLy-OPSU8AAQ_zw.jpg)
Image from Twitter @the_fried_egg (https://twitter.com/the_fried_egg/status/917817826815172608)
One of the biggest surprises for me is how often and late the plans change to the point that I don't see how a contest entry could look the same by the time the course is finished. In computer games/simulators we have the benefit of being able to play the hole and tweak it and play it again until it plays the way we want it to. Since real architects don't simulate their holes, a plan on paper is difficult to get a sense of how it will play. From topo plan to walking the property to shaping to growing in to preview play to a year after opening day, new information is continuously gained and appropriate changes are applied so we get a great hole and a great course. :)
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Thanks for posting, I haven't seen many photos of the course since I left in July. Photos are great and happy to see another great grow-in by Rob, Lucas and company. I labeled the photos for you below.
Thanks Ryan. Congratulations on the project!
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Morgan, or anyone, would you happen to have any more pictures or higher resolution pictures of 14 before the 3 sister bunkers were removed? I told Brian Silvernail about this thread and he asked me to ask about it since he didn't get to see it when the bunkers were still shaped in. Thanks.
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Morgen, thanks for all the effort here. This is great tour you have put together.
Out of curiosity for those of you that have seen and played what's open and also been to Bandon Dunes Resort and Streamsong.
Where would Sand Valley as a resort stand for you in comparison with the others?
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Out of curiosity for those of you that have seen and played what's open and also been to Bandon Dunes Resort and Streamsong.
Where would Sand Valley as a resort stand for you in comparison with the others?
To compare it to Bandon at this stage is silly. Bandon has FOUR of the top 100 courses in America. It will be a few years before Sand Valley can even try to match up with them.
Streamsong Red stands out for me because it has a couple of holes (7, 9) that are unique; I'm not sure Sand Valley has any in that category. But if I had to compare them hole by hole I'm guessing it would be a close call. As for Streamsong Blue v Mammoth Dunes, I'm a bit biased ;)
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Sand Valley could end up surpassing Streamsong IMO. It will be hard to beat the quality at Bandon and the ocean views everyone fawns over (or the 3 club wind!). Sand Valley is more fun than Streamsong Red for the average 15 HDCP IMO. It's on fescue (duh). And if what a little birdie told me recently about course #3 pans out, it will be very intriguing. They're not really competitors though. Streamsong is a winter getaway destination, and a very good one at that. Sand Valley may end up taking some visitors away from Bandon. It's within a 4 hour drive of metro Chicago, Minneapolis and Milwaukee, not to mention much easier to get to for anyone east of the Mississippi. When you throw in Lawsonia, Erin Hills & Whistling Straights, you can make a hell of a trip out of it.
Sand Valley vs. Streamsong:
SV > Red
Blue > Mammoth
#3 vs. Black ? TBD
Also Sand Valley may end up with #4, 5 & 6!
Sand Valley vs. Bandon
SV v. BT ? Trails will be tough to beat here but SV is very good. Trails may be a hair better, but it's closer than many think. SV may be a bit more user friendly for the retail golfer.
BD v. Mammoth? Fans of DMK (I'm not one of 'em) will love both courses. BD probably wins on scenery alone, but again not a slam dunk as Mammoth is about as pretty of a course as you could ask for without an ocean.
PD v. #3? TBD, but it will be a tall order to beat one of the consensus modern classics.
OM v. #4? Could we possibly see another really top notch tribute course at SV? Not out of the question with the crafty Keisers, although OM may be my favorite course at Bandon; so again, it will be very tough to beat.
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Morgan, or anyone, would you happen to have any more pictures or higher resolution pictures of 14 before the 3 sister bunkers were removed? I told Brian Silvernail about this thread and he asked me to ask about it since he didn't get to see it when the bunkers were still shaped in. Thanks.
Brian, the best photo I have of the 3 bunkers on 14 is posted in the 2nd reply on the first page of this thread.
Love the aerial photo you posted as well as the back story.
If you size the photo to a width of 800 it will fit into this website without having to use the scroll bar.
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Brian, the best photo I have of the 3 bunkers on 14 is posted in the 2nd reply on the first page of this thread.
Love the aerial photo you posted as well as the back story.
If you size the photo to a width of 800 it will fit into this website without having to use the scroll bar.
OK, thanks anyway. I unfortunately was never over there when they were shaped in so I have no pictures of it to give him either.
I linked to that image from the Sand Valley twitter account so I don't have control over the size and it wasn't my picture. I will keep that in mind when I post my own pics though, thanks. I'll look through my pics from the ground and see if I have anything to add, you did a really good job of covering everything though, thanks for creating this thread.
Update: I found I could resize how the image displays in the post without resizing the original and I added a link to it on @the_fried_egg as Sand Valley actually just retweeted it.
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Per Sand Valley, preview play on all 18 holes will begin on May 15, 2018.
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Brian -
GCAer Dan Moore sent me some great photos he shot, which shows the construction progression of #14.
September, 2016
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4565/38703971331_91a90e3d89_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8Yfx) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8Yfx) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157469528@N06/)
July, 2017
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4570/38671651622_e5c31cdff7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21VhjJb) (https://flic.kr/p/21VhjJb) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157469528@N06/)
October, 2017
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38703971221_95b9cdb20c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8YdD) (https://flic.kr/p/21Y8YdD) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157469528@N06/)
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I find the photographs of the short course more appealing than those of either big course. Admittedly, it's a small sample and I've only played the first course.
I believe it was the legendary Joe Hancock who stated that there's no money in doing less.
Mike
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Jason Way's Geeked on Golf website has photos of all the holes on The Sandbox (short course):
https://geekedongolf.com/2017/12/14/the-sandbox-closing-day-at-sand-valley/
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Brian -
GCAer Dan Moore sent me some great photos he shot, which shows the construction progression of #14.
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. I should have marked this thread to notify me on future replies. Thanks for posting the additional photos.
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Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread (esp Morgan)
I'm sitting back here in Australia thinking - I think I might need another visit to America ...
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I recently made a return visit and got to play 13 holes rather than the 9 preview holes I saw last fall. The course is really impressive. So much fun to play and the fescue turf is outstanding. Can't wait to play 10-14!
I also got to play the Sandbox and it too is wonderful! All you need is a nine iron, wedge and putter. The Devil's a**hole bunker on 17 is legit!
The Sand Valley course by Coore and Crenshaw is as good as any I've played. I love the finish especially.
What a place.
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I agree with the early comments on the design and potential of both Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. However, I was there this past weekend and a majority of the holes on Sand Valley were still being played with temporary greens due to significant trouble after the tough April weather. Much more sand than fescue in spots. SV emailed ahead of time to warn of their issues, and beers and sliders were $1.50 (not sure if they always are?). I would avoid SV for at least a few more weeks.
Erin Hills also had significant issues in several fairways, but the greens were mostly healthy aside from some patching they had just finished. (Erin postponed opening until last week).
The Kohler courses were in good shape from what I saw.
And Lawsonia was already close to summer form, shots rolling out almost everywhere. What a gem.
MW
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I agree with the early comments on the design and potential of both Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes. However, I was there this past weekend and a majority of the holes on Sand Valley were still being played with temporary greens due to significant trouble after the tough April weather. Much more sand than fescue in spots. SV emailed ahead of time to warn of their issues, and beers and sliders were $1.50 (not sure if they always are?). I would avoid SV for at least a few more weeks.
Erin Hills also had significant issues in several fairways, but the greens were mostly healthy aside from some patching they had just finished. (Erin postponed opening until last week).
The Kohler courses were in good shape from what I saw.
And Lawsonia was already close to summer form, shots rolling out almost everywhere. What a gem.
MW
Thanks for sharing about the conditions Michael. I plan on getting back to SV in July and again in the fall. I look forward to seeing Mammoth and the Sandbox. I'm a little concerned with the pace of play comments I've seen in this thread. I understand why Erin Hills takes 5 hours to play, but SV should never be over 4 hours. The walk is somewhat challenging but certainly not that grueling.
I personally really enjoyed the Sand Valley course. It's pretty hard to lose a ball, yet scoring well isn't that easy. I thought the par 3s were bright spots, and really liked the closing 3 holes.
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Regarding pace of play. In a couple dozen rounds, I've yet to take more than 4.5 hours to play and most of the time its closer to 4.
I thought the temp greens last weekend were actually kinda fun-channeling the 19th century closely mown fescue fairway greens with divots to avoid. Looking forward to the grand opening of all 18 on Mammoth a week from today. Sandbox is just great fun.
Greens should be fine in 2-3 weeks. Temps in 80's this weekend to get soil temps up and wake up the roots should really help. Just a brutal late winter up there. Twenty inches in mid-April that didn't melt to a week before opening. All things considered grounds staff has done a great job getting the courses in shape and dealing with the difficulties. And kudos to management for reducing prices and offering $1 Spotted Cows, burgers and brats at the turn on Mammoth while things sort out.
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Had the privilege to play all 18 at mammoth yesterday. no pins in 10-14, but holes were cut.
14 is very fun. one in our group drove the front edge of the green. the grass is a little furry and the sprinklers were going non stop so expect to have a lot more run out once it is firm and fast like the rest of the course.
10 is a very good short four as well. running right to left up a hill to a green site nestled at the top of two dunes. fun hole.
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I played Erin Hills first off the tee with Rich Tock last Saturday, and it was very bit of 4:45, 5 if you count the 10minutes back to the clubhouse. They'd cut it by 15 minutes simply by moving the turn house to the other side of the 9th green. Drove from Erin to Sand Valley in 2:11, and walked Sand Valley solo with a push cart in 3:15.
Re: the Sand Valley $1 beer and sliders (pretty sure they were $1.50) - in the pro shop the Spotted Cows are FREE while you shop. Beer tap set up over by window.
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The pics of the course looks lovely - What an amazing site.
How much wind, especially variable wind, does SV get?
Mammoth looks like it has a TON of grass and very little demand for any type of accuracy off the tee?
Sure, there are preferred angles, but there is a training wheels element that makes me think about Gamble Sands, which trusted GCA'ers are pretty "meh" on, and Ogilvy's recent comments about the rub of the green influencing the enjoyment of a round. This may not be true, but having read comments about being able to hit the ball all over the place without significant consequence, I wonder how great the desire will be for repeat play? Especially for a decent stick?
Maybe with course #3 they will introduce something more intimate and challenging to Mammoth with SV in the middle?
Disclaimer: Haven't been there and hope to go one day. All observations based on the pics and commentary.
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The pics of the course looks lovely - What an amazing site.
How much wind, especially variable wind, does SV get?
Mammoth looks like it has a TON of grass and very little demand for any type of accuracy off the tee?
Sure, there are preferred angles, but there is a training wheels element that makes me think about Gamble Sands, which trusted GCA'ers are pretty "meh" on, and Ogilvy's recent comments about the rub of the green influencing the enjoyment of a round. This may not be true, but having read comments about being able to hit the ball all over the place without significant consequence, I wonder how great the desire will be for repeat play? Especially for a decent stick?
Maybe with course #3 they will introduce something more intimate and challenging to Mammoth with SV in the middle?
Disclaimer: Haven't been there and hope to go one day. All observations based on the pics and commentary.
There are several holes that don't require accuracy off the tee, but not the majority. 1 has a massive fairway with little trouble, 2 requires accuracy to have an opportunity to see the pin on a dog log, 3 requires a tee shot that challenges the longest carry over the waste area to have a clear second shot into the green, five has a wide fairway but anything left of center will leave a blind shot to the green, six is a driveable par 4 with a precise tee shot required to hit the green or be close; seven has a big fairway but there's a blind angled drive over the hill and the natural inclination is to play safe left which leaves a much longer shot from a worse angle into the green; nine has a menacing center bunker and waste area right that is basically dead; 10 has a tiny landing area; 11 has lots of fairway to the right but several challenging bunkers down the center and left which is the most direct line of play; 12 has the most penal fairway bunker on the course -- the back wall is huge and advancing to the green is impossible; 14 requires a very precise tee shot to have a chance of driving the green; 15 is very wide and a long hitter can blast away; 17 is also wide open; and 18 requires a shot between two large waste areas.
in my opinion only 1, 15 and 17 lets you bomb away without worrying about consequences.
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Thanks Jon - Appreciate the insight! Sounds a lot more challenging off the tee than Gamble - at least if you want to find the right angles / views into the green.
It'll be interesting to get a feel for the "How would you split 10 rounds" SV vs Mammoth debate after a bunch of peeps have played them both back to back.
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Thanks Jon - Appreciate the insight! Sounds a lot more challenging off the tee than Gamble - at least if you want to find the right angles / views into the green.
Quite true. While the fairways at both courses are incredibly wide, the greens at Mammoth are far more interesting than Gamble Sands and require some thought as to angle. Not much decision making in that regard at Gamble due to the many back and side boards that reroute errant shots to the middle.
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I was out there yesterday and happened to run into both Jeffrey Bertch (a fellow GCAer) and David McLay Kidd, certainly an added bonus to the trip I made out to see it. I didn't play 10-13 but did hit tee shots on 14 to see how the hole would play.
As it exists now it's playing a bit soft for any of the hazards to really threaten play on the front 9. Most of the strategy presents itself in visuals: one side of the fairway is partially blind while the other has a better view in, but playing from one side or the other doesn't necessarily have a huge difference, so those frequently playing it may lose some interest over time, but most players are only playing a couple times at best, so I like the variety it presents. As it played yesterday, it was a bit disheartening how little role the hazards played on the front, but if it gets firmer and faster that will change.
The back 9 however, specifically that 10-15 stretch which hasn't opened yet, is fantastic. The 10th is probably my favorite of the bunch, I'd say it has a bigger landing area than Jon indicates, but it reminded me a lot of the 10th at Royal Melbourne West, with the only difference being that those laying up still have to play up to the saddle in the ridge line. 14 is a lot of fun, although I wonder how difficult it really will be for players to drive the green, or if there's any other play that really makes any sense there. If you're long enough you can bomb it off the 15th tee with no fear, but the approach into that green is heavily guarded by short grass and bunkers where up and down is hardly a guarantee.
I don't think it'll crack top 100 lists but I'd happily go back there to play it again. Hopefully it firms up as the fall rolls around.
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Apologies, I was unclear regarding the 10th. The landing area is decent sized if you are laying up. Target is small if going for the green.
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Good early reviews...
Golf Advisor
https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/klein-on-mammoth-dunes-17778.htm (https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/klein-on-mammoth-dunes-17778.htm)
Golf.com
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/2018/05/31/mammoth-dunes-sand-valley-midwest-golf-courses (http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/2018/05/31/mammoth-dunes-sand-valley-midwest-golf-courses)
http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/2018/05/30/sand-valleys-mammoth-dunes-course-wows-early-and-often (http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/2018/05/30/sand-valleys-mammoth-dunes-course-wows-early-and-often)
Golf Digest
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mammoth-dunes-at-sand-valley-how-david-mclay-kidd-used-bandon-dunes-as-inspiration-to-bring-fun-back-to-golf (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mammoth-dunes-at-sand-valley-how-david-mclay-kidd-used-bandon-dunes-as-inspiration-to-bring-fun-back-to-golf)
Golfweek
https://golfweek.com/2018/05/30/golf-architect-david-mclay-kidd-balances-challenging-with-playable-in-new-wisconsin-course/ (https://golfweek.com/2018/05/30/golf-architect-david-mclay-kidd-balances-challenging-with-playable-in-new-wisconsin-course/)
Forbes.com
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2018/05/31/a-first-look-at-mammoth-dunes-20-years-after-bandon-mclay-kidd-delivers-fun-golf-to-wisconsin/#42c2f0ca17f7 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikmatuszewski/2018/05/31/a-first-look-at-mammoth-dunes-20-years-after-bandon-mclay-kidd-delivers-fun-golf-to-wisconsin/#42c2f0ca17f7)
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I have been at Sand Valley and Mammoth for the past week filming and suggest that those visit the site and make their own evaluation rather than armchair guessing that it is too easy or too slow. Having played it in all conditions including stripped pure sand, it accomplishes its mission to deliver a big dose of fun.
It is a wide bold dramatic piece of golf that can be enjoyed by low, mid and high handicaps. It is also configurable to be placid or brutal based on the cut, water management, tee box and pin placement.
The grass is still healing from 2 feet of snow a scant 18 or 20 days ago and the cut of the greens is Sottish winter long.
Note that DMK has been open and transparent that this is not a course designed to necessarily inflict pain. He accomplished his mission quite impressively as it is designed to deliver fun and make people want to take laps. Tee times and rooms are sold out for much of the summer so those that think it is "too easy" or "Toothless" are welcome and their opinions are respected but realistically...
From the proper tee, this is not designed to be a penal track, it is an invitation to play sand dune/barren golf with big dramatic approaches and greens. Trust me, there are secret and alternate tee and pin combination locations that can deliver the appropriate challenge.
When the grass and fairways heal and begin to run, the story will likely change and holding greens will become a fescue festival.
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Regarding pace of play. In a couple dozen rounds, I've yet to take more than 4.5 hours to play and most of the time its closer to 4.
I thought the temp greens last weekend were actually kinda fun-channeling the 19th century closely mown fescue fairway greens with divots to avoid. Looking forward to the grand opening of all 18 on Mammoth a week from today. Sandbox is just great fun.
Greens should be fine in 2-3 weeks. Temps in 80's this weekend to get soil temps up and wake up the roots should really help. Just a brutal late winter up there. Twenty inches in mid-April that didn't melt to a week before opening. All things considered grounds staff has done a great job getting the courses in shape and dealing with the difficulties. And kudos to management for reducing prices and offering $1 Spotted Cows, burgers and brats at the turn on Mammoth while things sort out.
Agree, the greens were actually the same speed as its Scottish cousins about this time of year.
I expect some savvy locals to attempt to ATV to the Mammoth 1/2 Hut for some of the best tasting food deals in town. Alas the old road is quite closed. ha