Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jason Way on January 01, 2017, 10:53:19 AM
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Since it is the season in the Northlands for GCA thought experiments, here is another one.
Jon Cavalier, Peter Korbakes, and I got to chatting about our favorite holes on our favorite courses. We decided to create a Great course out of our favorite holes. That seemed a little bit too easy though, so we added in a few layers. The course would be comprised of the favorite 18 that at least one of us has played, by number.
Here was the process:
We each pitched our favorite holes en masse into a bucket. I sorted them by number. It quickly became clear that we had too many, so we split them into Classic and Modern. We then picked a favorite for each hole number.
It seemed a little boring to have 5 or 6 holes from the same course. Not enough variety. Therefore, we decided that each course could only have one hole. We went back through the buckets and did a little shuffling. It was kind of like trying to fit a jigsaw puzzle together.
At that point the courses felt Great to us. I started down the road of trying to consider the actual flow of holes by par and yardage, but quickly lost my mind, so we called it a day.
I will be posting a hole a day on here for the next 36 days, as well as on Instagram (@jwizay1493) and Twitter (@JasonWay1493). Of course, we welcome reasoned debate - tell us we picked the wrong hole, but also tell us why you think another hole is better, keeping in mind our rules.
For those of you who aren't fans of suspense, our Great 18s are now up on my blog: https://geekedongolf.com/2017/01/01/americas-great-18s/. Do me a favor though, please wait until the holes get posted here to share your thoughts/arguments. One exception to that request would be that if you are bored and crazy enough to put your own course together according to our rules, feel free to post your Great 18 any time.
First up, the moderns...
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/great18modernlogos-e1483285727410.jpg)
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Might want to check the photo you are using for the 4th hole in the modern group.
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Might want to check the photo you are using for the 4th hole in the modern group.
Thanks for the catch Sven. Fixed.
First indication of how mind-scrambling this process was.
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The opener on the Modern course is Sand Hills #1. I like a gentle handshake as an opener, but not a lay down. A solid par-5 fits that bill for me and the dogleg left at SH is just right. The first also serves a preview of what is to come throughout Sand Hills, with an angled tee shot, the blowout bunkers, an approach with elevation change, and an outstanding green set in the saddle of the hill.
This is a great #1.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m1-sandhills2-jw-e1483291484398.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/sandhills1-fairwaybunkerleft-e1483291496126.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m1-sandhills1-jw-e1483291472312.jpeg)
Our Runners-up - Boston Golf Club, Apache Stronghold, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald
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I'm going to play devil's advocate here.
There can be an extreme penalty for coming up short on your 3rd shot at Sand Hills #1. I have seen an approach shot come up just short, that rolled back leaving a 90-100 yard shot to the center of the green.
I've only seen two other holes with balls rolling back off the front that rival the 1st at Sand Hills (Crystal Downs #8, Chambers Bay #7), but neither roll back as far. The old version of Chambers Bay #7 used to roll back further.
I might challenge the characterization of "gentle opener". The green is tilted significantly from back to front, and with the lightning fast greens, downhill putts are treacherous and played defensively.
With that said, I agree it is an excellent hole. I especially like how the first and second shots require thought and execution.
Anybody else have an opinion here?
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The opener on the Modern course is Sand Hills #1. I like a gentle handshake as an opener, but not a lay down. A solid par-5 fits that bill for me and the dogleg left at SH is just right. The first also serves a preview of what is to come throughout Sand Hills, with an angled tee shot, the blowout bunkers, an approach with elevation change, and an outstanding green set in the saddle of the hill.
This is a great #1.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m1-sandhills2-jw-e1483291484398.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/sandhills1-fairwaybunkerleft-e1483291496126.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m1-sandhills1-jw-e1483291472312.jpeg)
Our Runners-up - Boston Golf Club, Apache Stronghold, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald
A "gentle handshake"!!! This hole has played more like a prostate exam for me on more than a few occasions. It is a fantastic opener, but that third shot can be extremely difficult. What a great hole to start a round of golf.
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That's a nice visual Scott. Moooooooon river! You using the whole fist Doc?
John and Scott, your comments confirm what I like about this hole (and good par-5s in general) as openers, and by no means am I calling it gentle. I don't care for throwaway holes as openers, even if they satisfy the "gentle handshake" standard. Given that it usually takes about 6 holes for my back to lube up, I also prefer to not have to come up with an A+ drive or a mid-iron approach before I have settled into the round a bit.
#1 at Sand Hills does indeed make great demands in the approach and on the green, but those are demands that I am more prepared to answer right out of the gate.
Thanks for jumping in fellas. Still interested to hear if there are other Modern #1s that anyone thinks are better.
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French Creek #8 was a runner-up? Maybe #9?
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I'm not sure there's a better 1st hole among the moderns, but now you've used your Sand Hills hole and you can't use another.
My memories are a bit fuzzy, but Old Sandwich has a nice par 5 1st hole.
Mentally paging through the choices, the 1st hole at the great moderns I've seen tends not to be among the best holes on the course. I think the choice for the 1st hole is a tough one.
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I'm not sure there's a better 1st hole among the moderns, but now you've used your Sand Hills hole and you can't use another.
My memories are a bit fuzzy, but Old Sandwich has a nice par 5 1st hole.
Mentally paging through the choices, the 1st hole at the great moderns I've seen tends not to be among the best holes on the course. I think the choice for the 1st hole is a tough one.
Good observation John. That is one of the fun aspects (to a geek like me) of trying to put the course together according to our rules. Courses like Sand Hills, that have so many wonderful holes, might not end up with their best hole, or even our favorite hole from that course, on our Great 18.
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The 2nd on our Moderns course is Sebonack #2, a par-4. This is one of Jon's picks and I have not played Sebonack, so I will let him chime in on the debate if need be. I can tell you from discussing the course with Jon that we are both fascinated by the Mr. Nicklaus and Mr. Doak collaboration, and Jon feels that one of the results is that Sebonack is a course where the strong holes are very strong.
Here is his commentary from the blog post:
Beginning with a tee shot between two old growth trees to a rumpled fairway split by massive blowout bunkers, the 2nd is one of Sebonack’s toughest holes. But what makes this hole great is its greensite, sliced diagonally into the dunes, protected by a sharp false front and a dune that obscures its right side.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m2-sebonack1-jc-e1483366074294.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m2-sebonack-jc-e1483366039772.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m2-sebonack2-jc-e1483366060845.jpeg)
Our Runners-up – Talking Stick North, Kingsley Club, Lost Dunes, Sand Valley, Apache Stronghold, Old MacDonald, Streamsong Blue, Erin Hills
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Your choice of Sebonack #2 is, IMO, horrendous. It is indeed an aesthetically beautiful hole, and undeniably a "strong," if not brutal hole.
The problem lies not with the tee shot, although the angular fairway bunker complex narrowing the preferred left side angle (from tee) further increases the degree of difficulty as it pushed the drive toward the middle and right side. Any of these latter positions narrows the ability of all but sub-scratch golfers to find enough realistic distance and height to safely land a ball onto too small and shallow a green that also throws in a hard-sloped back-to-front and wicked false-front, all surrounded by nasty little bunkers and wire grass...all combining to create one of golf's better S&M par fours.
This is hardly excused as just another par 4.5 either. When the green speeds are up (usually) and the wind is up (down, or cross, usually) it renders this hole stupidly difficult iMO and instantly recognizable for the dichotomy inherent to the design tension between it's two architects. Mind you, I don't dislike tough, or strong, per se, but do dislike borderline (or over) unfair and immediate.
On the classic side, so many great venues give you testing, but fair par 4's (i.e Oakmont, PVGC, Merion, WFW & WFE, Riviera, LACC N, etc....). The modern side has plenty better than this one as well, i.e...Pac Dunes, Desert Forest, Spyglass, Rock Creek, Boston GC, Old Sandwich, Hidden Creek and Rustic Canyon. Sorry to differ so vociferously, but you asked for it!
;)
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There can be an extreme penalty for coming up short on your 3rd shot at Sand Hills #1. I have seen an approach shot come up just short, that rolled back leaving a 90-100 yard shot to the center of the green.
Anybody else have an opinion here?
No question that knowing about the extreme false-front at No. 1 beforehand played heavily on my mind when playing my short third shot into the green.
TK
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In regards to the 2nd hole choice. I'd go with Kingsley. I think its the strongest hole on the course and some of my friends that don't care for the course think highly of the hole. It gets in your head on the 1st hole. This is all achieved with NO water hazards. It's one of the few par 3's I can think off the top of my head that has an element of strategic options.
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Jason - thanks, this is going to be a pleasure to follow. I can't add a single thing, but already the complexity/multi-faceted nature of the puzzle you put together is clear. Besides everything else, how one hole flows into/balances out the one that comes before it and after it has already come to the fore, i.e. in your 18, the happy golfer who has managed a solid par on a solid opening Par 5 better have gotten warmed up and ready to play because, bam, the 2nd hole is a hard one!
P
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The first at Sand Hills is a an exciting and fun way to open your round. I agree the third shot is very dangerous with little margin for error. If the hole is cut on the front portion of the green, is is very possible to putt off the green. This is especially true for the first time visitor. I was shocked at how fast the greens were.
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So far I have nothing to add, but like Peter P I am looking forward to the discussion as this unfolds.
Additionally, one of the upsides to the weather getting colder here in the Midwest is that Jason Way can't play golf. With that distraction out of the way, his brain starts turning and great threads tumble forth. Looking forward to this (hopefully with plentiful photographic evidence provided by Jon Cavalier) and others to come. I am also hopeful that Jason will post a recap at the end after he has had a chance to sort through how well the course is balanced (mix of par, length, use of different swing types) when all the holes are revealed.
Not having played Sebonac, I'll suggest that Erin Hills has a terrific #2. After a pretty still first hole, the blind tee shot on number two lets you know that this round will be different than most tracks in the Midwest.
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Your choice of Sebonack #2 is, IMO, horrendous. It is indeed an ascetically beautiful hole, and undeniably a "strong," if not brutal hole.
The problem lies not with the tee shot, although the angular fairway bunker complex narrowing the preferred left side angle (from tee) further increases the degree of difficulty as it pushed the drive toward the middle and right side. Any of these latter positions narrows the ability of all but sub-scratch golfers to find enough realistic distance and height to safely land a ball onto too small and shallow a green that also throws in a hard-sloped back-to-front and wicked false-front, all surrounded by nasty little bunkers and wire grass...all combining to create one of golf's better S&M par fours.
This is hardly excused as just another par 4.5 either. When the green speeds are up (usually) and the wind is up (down, or cross, usually) it renders this hole stupidly difficult iMO and instantly recognizable for the dichotomy inherent to the design tension between it's two architects. Mind you, I don't dislike tough, or strong, per se, but do dislike borderline (or over) unfair and immediate.
On the classic side, so many great venues give you testing, but fair par 4's (i.e Oakmont, PVGC, Merion, WFW & WFE, Riviera, LACC N, etc....). The modern side has plenty better than this one as well, i.e...Pac Dunes, Desert Forest, Spyglass, Rock Creek, Boston GC, Old Sandwich, Hidden Creek and Rustic Canyon. Sorry to differ so vociferously, but you asked for it!
;)
Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for chiming in Steve. I have not played Sebonack, so I cannot defend the choice. I'll leave that to Jon.
I don't believe that any of the three of us have played Rustic Canyon or Rock Creek, so we couldn't consider those #2s. We chose other holes from PD and BGC so those were out. I am surprised that you put #2 at Old Sandwich as a toughness counterpoint to our choice. I found that hole to be extremely difficult, especially with the wind quartering in as it did the day I played it.
So, to call the question, if you could only pick one Modern #2 from your personal list, which would it be and why?
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I'd go with the 1st at Bayside in Ogalalla. It checks all the boxes you mentioned, and does more with less than the 1st at Sand Hills.
For the 2nd, I'm assuming we're doing US only. Otherwise the 2nd at St. Andrews Beach might get a nod.
For the honorable mentions, I don't think the Old Mac hole is the best 2nd hole at the resort (with the 2nd at the Preserve maybe taking the title). I like the Talking Stick North nomination.
Hoping to see some representation from courses like Wild Horse, Wine Valley, Gamble Sands, Angel's Crossing, Blackstone, Engh's litany of Colorado courses and at least one nomination from one of the North Dakota courses. With a panel of three and what appears to be a decided focus on bedpost notching courses, I'm not going to hold my breath.
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I knew when I saw it that the 2nd hole at Sebonack would be a controversial selection. It's one of the most uncompromising holes around the green that I've ever worked on. That they used it as the first hole for the Women's Open was almost comical.
That said, the first three holes nominated as counterpoints could be described in almost exactly the same terms. You could easily go back and forth across the green on the 2nd at Kingsley multiple times ... I watched Mike DeVries do that the only time we played together there. I haven't seen the 2nd at Erin Hills since they enlarged it, but the original green was surely one you could miss and miss again. And I love the simplicity of the 2nd hole at Talking Stick North -- I diagrammed it in my book and might well have nominated it here -- but it does have o.b. right up against one side of the green, which is pretty severe.
For that matter, if you don't like the wicked false front on the 2nd at Sebonack, you shouldn't be too big a fan of the one on the 1st at Sand Hills, either.
The main problem with most proposed "Great 18" courses is that they are 90-100% comprised of difficult holes that you'd probably never want to play one after another. Is that a factor in the decision-making, or are you just picking the "best" 1st hole, 2nd hole, etc., within the parameters of no more than one per course?
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Hoping to see ... at least one nomination from one of the North Dakota courses.
Maybe you should be so bold as to nominate one yourself. FWIW, I played the North Dakota Golf Trail a few years back and there aren't any candidates that jump to mind ... the one little par-3 at the top of Bully Pulpit is more severe than the holes being argued about above, and it's the one that renders the course impossible to walk, for bonus points.
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Steve Lapper says:
"On the classic side, so many great venues give you testing, but fair par 4's (i.e Oakmont, PVGC, Merion, WFW & WFE, Riviera, LACC N, etc....). The modern side has plenty better than this one as well, i.e...Pac Dunes, Desert Forest, Spyglass, Rock Creek, Boston GC, Old Sandwich, Hidden Creek and Rustic Canyon. Sorry to differ so vociferously, but you asked for it!"
Hi Steve,
A chance to reciprocate your greetings from the Foxy thread. Happy New Year, old chap! And now for the all-Doak analysis:
Sebonack's 2nd hole is brutal. A good argument against this choice is the limitations on hole locations. It's a pretty small green, and the front third has no pin positions. Overall, I enjoyed Sebonack immensely, but this is a very difficult hole.
Rock Creek has a sensational 2nd hole.
Pacific Dunes has a rather famous 2nd hole, but I'm holding out for one of the bigger stars on that course.
Ballyneal's 2nd hole happens to be one of my favorites on the course, but you're probably saving a spot for one of the funkier designs.
Another one of Tom's great 2nd holes is found at Dismal River - Red. Another long par 4 with a partially blind tee shot over a dune, followed by a long uphill approach to a perched green surrounded by a sea of short grass. Really good.
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Rock Creek has a sensational 2nd hole.
Pacific Dunes has a rather famous 2nd hole, but I'm holding out for one of the bigger stars on that course.
Ballyneal's 2nd hole happens to be one of my favorites on the course, but you're probably saving a spot for one of the funkier designs.
Another one of Tom's great 2nd holes is found at Dismal River - Red. Another long par 4 with a partially blind tee shot over a dune, followed by a long uphill approach to a perched green surrounded by a sea of short grass. Really good.
Personally I would take our second hole at Stone Eagle over any of the above; I am really fond of that one. I'm surprised you didn't mention it since you were once a member there. But this exercise seems to be focused on great holes from top-100 courses, and I've got more than my share of holes in the list anyway.
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Hoping to see ... at least one nomination from one of the North Dakota courses.
Maybe you should be so bold as to nominate one yourself. FWIW, I played the North Dakota Golf Trail a few years back and there aren't any candidates that jump to mind ... the one little par-3 at the top of Bully Pulpit is more severe than the holes being argued about above, and it's the one that renders the course impossible to walk, for bonus points.
Be happy to when we get to those holes. It might be the par 3 with the thumbprint green at Links of ND.
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Even though I mentioned Ballyneal in the last post, I may be shying away from mentioning the holes I knew as a former or current member.
The 2nd hole at Kinloch is a Bottle hole, and among the more distinctive holes there. However, it is quite an easy hole, too. Once again, if you're going to use one hole from Kinloch, there are better choices.
I also like the 2nd hole at Bandon Trails, especially played as a 210 yard par 3. A lot of people hate the penalty for a pushed or sliced shot (a large, unkempt dune), but the bailout area short and left (and blind from the tee) is ample.
Lots of great 2nd holes. I'm wondering whether the modern design philosophy is one of delayed gratification, where you put the clubhouse on a less dramatic location, and work your way out to the good golfing land. I feel like I can make an argument that the 1st holes on modern golf courses, on average, are among the weakest set.
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Please be careful with that whole breath-holding thing, Sven. I read on the interwebs that it can result in dain bramage. None of us have played any of those courses you mentioned, although I believe JCavs has plans to hit some of them in 2017.
With regard to your question Tom, difficulty is not a conscious consideration for me, nor was it something I thought much about while putting the holes into the courses. I suspect that that is true for Peter and Jon too. I'm usually not concerned with my score, so I value holes that are cool to look at and interesting to play repeatedly, and I suppose that means that sometimes tough ones are my favorites (although that's not the case most of the time).
As a group, we also tend to play more of the classics than moderns, so a fair case can be made that this first 18 sticks to our favorite archies, which also means quite a few Top 100ish holes. That is more a function of our current pool though, and is why I am interested to hear other favorites from the crowd, especially those that are off the beaten path.
When we use the word "Great" in the context of our 18s, we mean our favorites. We realize that this is not an objective-ish evaluation standard such as that used in the Confidential Guide, but we can live with that, and Great 18s has a better ring to it than Favoritest 18s.
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Please be careful with that whole breath-holding thing, Sven. I read on the interwebs that it can result in dain bramage. None of us have played any of those courses you mentioned, although I believe JCavs has plans to hit some of them in 2017.
Jason:
Its amazing what you can find on the Interwebs.
Sven
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Jason,
Do you have a time in mind that separates classic from modern?
Mark
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Do you have a time in mind that separates classic from modern?
To keep things simple, if I recall correctly, we used 1960 as the cutoff between the two categories.
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I hope you guys branch out from the usual suspects:
For hole #1 I'd nominate:
Kingsley - hard to beat in my opinion, everything you want in an opening hole. Perhaps the best hole on the course too
Wolf Run - again, maybe the best hole on the course. Such an inviting, yet difficult hole
Sweetens Cove - I know all 3 of you love this course, plus a really good opening hole. Super fun
For hole #2:
Talking Stick North - as Tom mentioned. In my opinion it's one of the finest holes ever designed. Overuse of the concept would get old, but the use of OB is brilliant and terrifying.
Harbor Town - close to your cut off date for modern, but such a fun hole, sets the tone for the round and is completely unique (as is Harbor Town - although would probably pick #13 from the course as best hole)
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Jason, I did a similar exercise a few years back and like your list thus far and would agree with Jon's selection of Sebonack at #2 as it also held that spot in the list I did. I didn't distinguish between Modern and Classic on my former list so I'll go through and make a list of each. I would also be curious to see a Great 18 from people's home states; I could do one for Idaho.
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Hi Jason,
Try not to be discouraged by the peanut gallery chiming in. This is fun.
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Try not to be discouraged by the peanut gallery chiming in. This is fun.
No discouragement here, my friend. I don't take myself seriously enough to get worked up. And I was being honest when I said that I looked forward to counterarguments of the sort you (and Tom, Ben, Steve, and Josh) are making. The more specific, the better.
Tim F. hit it on the head - this is the time of the year when I sit around and think about golf holes and courses in all sorts of trivial ways. Can't nobody take the fun out of that.
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For those of you hoping we would depart from the chalk at this point, no such luck.
The 3rd on our Moderns course is Bandon Trails #3, a par-5. There are many things we love about this hole.
First, its position in the routing. The transition from the dunes to the inland portion of the property is special. I am a fan of reveals, and this hole is unique at Bandon in that it provides a killer reveal without using the ocean. Second, all three of us are fans of centerline hazards and the way they create opportunities to create different paths down the hole. An argument could be made that two smallish bunkers (the one in the landing area and the short of the green) dictate play enough all by themselves. And finally, on my one play of this hole, I lucked out and knocked my approach stiff and so I had time to stand around and take in the contours of the approach, the green, and the surrounds, and I recall being taken by how beautiful they were. When I think about heading back to Bandon, this is one of the holes that I am motivated to see again.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m3-bandontrails-jc-e1483486771534.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m3-bandontrails2-jc-e1483486795341.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m3-bandontrails1-jc-e1483486783689.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Old Macdonald, Colorado GC, CommonGround, Ballyneal, Arcadia Bluffs, Boston Golf Club, Black Forest, Sand Valley, Wade Hampton, Spyglass Hill, Pacific Dunes, Erin Hills
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I haven't played SH but have played Sebonac. Seems like that is a very difficult hole to follow up what people have said about SH's 1st!
Love your pick of BT for the 3rd hole.
Agree that Rustic has a great 2nd hole and too bad none of you have played it. Wolf Point's 2nd hole is also a great one.
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The best part of the 3rd at Bandon Trails is that when you shy away from the right green side bunker, as most people would, you learn that the left side of the green drains out to the back, and that's why your approach shot wound up over and out.
However I would say that the quality of this hole is more dependent than most on playing firm and fast. Luckily, between the way Bandon is maintained and the fact it plays downwind all summer, it is unlikely to lose its luster.
P.S. The third at Black Forest? Are you sure you've got the right hole, there? Of all the holes I have ever built, that's in my top three of greens I would like to do over. [And no, I'm not going to name the other two, but at the rate you are going you may nominate them all ... ]
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P.S. The third at Black Forest? Are you sure you've got the right hole, there? Of all the holes I have ever built, that's in my top three of greens I would like to do over. [And no, I'm not going to name the other two, but at the rate you are going you may nominate them all ... ]
Yes, that was one of the handful of holes I really enjoyed out there, although my positive impression was based more on the tee-to-green portion and the bunkering than the green itself. What about the green do you regret?
I am not going to be beg you to disclose the other two holes, but I am now secretly hoping that we have picked them all.
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OK Jason, I accepted your challenge and came up with Classic and Modern Great 18 courses. I followed the guidelines you set out and am taking on one additional criteria for my lists; none of the holes I use can be ones you selected for your courses or be listed on your website as Honorable Mentions. It pains me to accept that criteria since there are many holes you listed that I love and would include on my Great 18 without the additional criteria, but alas it is all for fun anyway. I'll play catch up and post the opening three holes of my Modern Great 18 which came in at a Par 72 tipping out at 7451 yards, although it plays shorter due to some downhill holes being included as well as some holes located in high elevation areas. There are five par 3s, eight par 4s, and five par 5s with about half of the holes coming from private courses and half from public access tracks. From the tips, the par 3s range from 153 - 273 yards, the par 4s span 322 - 501 yards, and the par 5s stretch 558 - 669 yards.
HOLE #1 - TOBACCO ROAD - 558 YARD PAR 5 - You either love Tobacco Road or you hate it, and you can place me firmly in the former category. Above all else, golf should be fun for all of us that aren't trying to make a living on tour. In terms of pure fun, Tobacco Road has few rivals and gobs of creativity. The opening hole sets the tone quickly with an elevated tee shot played to a fairway that gets pinched down by a pair of looming dunes. Getting through the narrows once is simply practice for the approach shot where the entrance to the green is again collapsed by two bunkered dunes which can create a blind third shot to the green hiding beyond. Players getting here in two need to display skillful accuracy parting the dunes or raw power going over the top of them.
(http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/photos/northcarolina/tobaccoroad/large/Tobacco-Road-1st.jpg)
The opening tee shot at Tobacco Road should generate some exhilaration in the golfer as they consider the adventure they are about to embark on.
(http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/photos/northcarolina/tobaccoroad/large/Tobacco-Road-1st-fairway.jpg)
The view from the right fairway dune down towards the green shows the trouble still lurking ahead.
HOLE #2 - SNAKE RIVER SPORTING CLUB - 322 YARD PAR 4 - I love a driveable par four and on a course with as much length as this Great 18, fitting a reachable hole like this one was a must. Tom Weiskopf has said that Snake River Sporting Club is his best design in the United States and plenty of that can be contributed to an inspiring setting. Located south of Jackson Hole, the course is carved between the mountains and the majestic Snake River. The front nine enjoys elevation changes and tree lined holes while the back features flatter, open property along the river. The 2nd hole plays downhill to the most undulated green at SRSC where laying up is no guarantee for par due to some pin locations that result in more 3-putts than 2-putts. The fairway slopes left to right off the mountain where players can make the mistake of not hitting their approach shot with enough velocity and are then repelled by the front right corner of the green.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/wyoming/snakeriver/large/Snake-River-2nd.jpg)
If you play Weiskopf courses then you know you will get a driveable par four along the way and this is his offering at Snake River Sporting Club.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/wyoming/snakeriver/large/Snake-River-2nd-fairway-2014.jpg)
The firm green makes sticking an aerial approach shot close on this hole a difficult proposition. The back right pin location in this photo at least leaves you an uphill putt after getting to the back tier.
HOLE #3 - MAUNA KEA - 273 YARD PAR 3 - The new tee box stretched this beauty out from 210 yards to a whopping 273 yards from the tips! With a driver or 3 wood in hand, players are presented with one of the most inspiring, and intimidating, views from a tee box they'll ever encounter. With waves crashing into the lava rock in front of you, lush tropical foliage surrounding the green, and distant views of the mountains and a sprawling ocean going out further than the eye can see, this is simply one of my favorite holes in the world. Admittedly, I'm a huge fan of the Hawaiian Islands. I love going to a place where year round I can enjoy golfing in the morning before taking my wife snorkeling, body surfing, or boogie boarding in the afternoon. The feelings I get while in paradise help contribute to my enjoyment of golf in Hawaii, but even still, no one can argue against the former Sandwich Islands' impressive collection of coastal holes. Hitting this green delivers immense satisfaction which can only be heightened by the occasional spinner dolphin breaching in the cove separating the golfer from the putting surface.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/hawaii/maunakea/large/Mauna-Kea-3rd-tips.jpg)
Aloha from the tips at Mauna Kea's 3rd hole; one of the most dynamic one-shotters in the world!
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/hawaii/maunakea/large/Mauna-Kea-3rd-lava.jpg)
A zoomed in look at what you'll be facing at Hawaii's signature hole.
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Awesome stuff Billy. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your piggybacks. As we get to the end of each course, I will compile the by-hole mentions. Perhaps the broadest and truest of Great 18s will emerge.
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The 4th on our Modern Great 18 is Bandon Dunes #4, a par-4.
This was a tough one. We love the 4-6 stretch at BD, and we could have included any of the three (as evidenced by the fact that I originally posted the wrong photo on my blog). In the end, we went with #4, which I do believe is an awesome hole, because of our love of another #5 and #6.
The drive to the fairway pinched by general nastiness, forces the decision to either a) play aggressively toward the fairway bunker with a better view for the approach, bringing the greenside bunkers into play or b) lay back a bit down the right for a better angle that might have a partially obscured view. The bunkers short left can mess with depth perception on the approach, as does the infinity green with the edge of Earth drop-off behind. Throw into the mix the wind and the option of playing a running approach in through the open right side of the green and this one can be a real head scrambler.
And oh yes, let's not forget that this is the first hole to interact so closely with the ocean on a game-changing American seaside links course. That is impactful at multiple levels.
For those reasons, I stand by the decision and await your alternatives.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m4-bandondunes-jc-e1483583596332.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m4-bandondunes1-jc-e1483583606353.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m4-bandondunes2-jc-e1483583615149.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Dunes Club, Old Sandwich, Sand Hills, Spyglass Hill, Streamsong Red, Streamsong Blue, Pacific Dunes, Sweetens Cove
All of the above being said I do have a special place in my heart for #4 on The Dunes Club and Sweetens Cove, and it was tough not to pick them as a nod to their greatness as 9-holers and courses, period. So I therefore humbly submit bonus photos of those two.
#4 at Sweetens Cove - Par-3
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/sweetenscove4-teezoom-e1483583627851.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/sweetenscove4-alpsbunker-e1483583638292.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/sweetenscove4-greenright-e1483583649950.jpeg)
#4 at The Dunes Club - Par-4
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/dunesclub4-tee-sv-e1483583660986.png)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/dunesclub4-approach-sv-e1483583675794.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/dunesclub4-shortright-sv-e1483583690536.jpg)
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The 5th on our Modern Great 18 is Boston Golf Club #5, a par-4.
This hole is polarizing, and Jon and I are firmly in the camp of those who love it. The blind, uphill drive can be played out wide left or in tight to the nasty bunkers right. The safe left route leaves a testy approach that can be played high, low, or even putted, but the raised green is extremely shallow from that angle. From the right, the green is plenty deep, but the approach must be made over the bunker mound, which can partially obscure the view. The hole is extreme and unique, and a thrill to play.
As a side note, Ran and Tom discussed the hole with Jay Flemma on his recent radio show (worth a listen if you haven't checked it out). Ran expressed his dislike for the hole because the green is so small and elevated that it is nearly impossible to drive. Therefore, from Ran's perspective, the hole does not provide a reasonable enough reward to attempt to drive the green. Tom's perspective was that short does not necessarily equate to drivable vis a vis par-4s, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. It is a strange byproduct of the modern game that we have conflated short par-4s with drivable par-4s. The reality for the average golfer is that one is a smallish subset of the other. I have not spoken to anyone involved directly with the creation of the 5th at BGC, but I would be shocked if they gave much thought to the probability of a hole that is 300+ yards uphill ever being driven by the club's membership and typical guests. To me, this is a hole that was clearly intended to be played with two shots.
That is a broader debate for another thread, but suffice it to say for us, Boston Golf Club #5 is great.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc1-jc-e1483678619778.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc2-jc-e1483678637402.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc3-jc-e1483678657117.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc-jc-e1483678589518.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc4-jw-e1483678608642.jpg)
Our runners-up – Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue, Bandon Dunes, Sweetens Cove
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#4 - DISMAL RIVER (WHITE) - 578 YARD PAR 5 - This attractive three-shotter meanders through the low land below the surrounding sand hills with a large windmill giving character to the hole and homage to the property's roots. The fairway navigates through a series of bunkers before turning left and finishing at a slightly raised green site resting in a natural sand dune amphitheater. The way this hole drapes naturally across the landscape is flat out beautiful and shows off what makes golf in Nebraska's sand hills so special.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/dismalriver(white)/large/Dismal-River-(White)-4th.jpg)
View from the tee
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/dismalriver(white)/large/Dismal-River-(White)-4th-elevated.jpg)
The view of the 4th hole from the 3rd fairway
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/dismalriver(white)/large/Dismal-River-(White)-4th-green.jpg)
The green
#5 - ARCADIA BLUFFS - 583 YARD PAR 5 - Perhaps my favorite at Arcardia Bluffs, the expansive 5th hole offers a fantastic combination of beautiful visuals and an excellent risk/reward opportunity. The tee shot plays well downhill with unobstructed views of Lake Michigan encompassing the background while an undulated fairway and series of bunker complexes create the foreground. The driving zone is generous with 60 yards of width and 350 yards of length to play with before the fairway tightens up and things get interesting. The second shot is where players have to decide whether to go for the green in two or whether to lay up and hit a wedge in on their third shot. Players going for the green will be faced with a forced carry over an intimidating and gnarly bunker complex with creates a virtual island green. A narrow strip of fairway is offered to the left of the green that can help catch wayward approaches from finding the deep bunkers. The 55 yard deep green is perfect for being receptive to long approaches. This is just a flat out fun hole.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/michigan/arcadiabluffs/large/Arcadia-Bluffs-5th.jpg)
The tee
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/michigan/arcadiabluffs/large/Arcadia-Bluffs-5th-view.jpg)
Another view
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/michigan/arcadiabluffs/large/Arcadia-Bluffs-5th-bunker.jpg)
Side view of the green
#6 - KINLOCH GOLF CLUB - 410 YARD PAR 4 - Kinloch is full of memorable holes and great variety. One of the most scenic holes is this downhill par four that is also a good scoring opportunity. A creek meanders through the short grass and creates two fairways. Bold players can take aim down the right side and carry the short end of the creek and leave themselves with an inviting angle into the green.
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(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/virginia/kinloch/large/Kinloch-6th.jpg)
View from the tee on Kinloch's 6th.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/virginia/kinloch/large/Kinloch-6th-approach.jpg)
The view from the lower fairway with an uphill approach over the creek.
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Here is my entire Modern course utilizing holes that aren't on Jason's final list or among honorable mentions. I'll add photos as well.
| Hole | Course | Yards | Par |
| 1 | Tobacco Road | 558 | 5 |
| 2 | Snake River SC | 322 | 4 |
| 3 | Mauna Kea | 273 | 3 |
| 4 | Dismal River | 578 | 5 |
| 5 | Arcadia Bluffs | 583 | 5 |
| 6 | Kinloch | 410 | 4 |
| 7 | Sand Hills | 283 | 4 |
| 8 | Pronghorn (Fazio) | 187 | 3 |
| 9 | Boston GC | 466 | 4 |
| 10 | Rock Creek Cattle Co. | 632 | 5 |
| 11 | MPCC | 181 | 3 |
| 12 | Royal Isabella | 435 | 4 |
| 13 | Atlanta CC | 153 | 3 |
| 14 | Chambers Bay | 546 | 4 |
| 15 | Sand Hollow | 230 | 3 |
| 16 | Poipu Bay | 501 | 4 |
| 17 | Manele | 444 | 4 |
| 18 | Kapalua (Plantation) | 669 | 5 |
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Curious of the Great 18's put forward here, would you say they generally play uphill or downhill overall?
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I have more downhill holes than uphill.
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Curious of the Great 18's put forward here, would you say they generally play uphill or downhill overall?
Off the top of my head, I think more of our Moderns play uphill.
Why do you ask?
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Thanks for sharing your course Billy. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your hole-by-hole.
Who else is going to take a stab at doing better than both of us?
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The 6th on our Modern Great 18 is Greywalls #6, a par-3. This one was a Jon Cavalier pick, and since I am a DeVries homer, I had no argument.
I have not played up at MGC yet (looking forward to photos and reports from the Summer Ball), so I will just share Jon's description and photos.
This is adventure golf at its finest – a clifftop to clifftop par-3 playing to a green set in a bowl of rock, with views for miles. While this kind of golf risks being overdone, perhaps Mike DeVries greatest achievement at Greywalls was in making holes fitting of the rugged setting, while still being quite playable and fun.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m6-greywalls1-jc-e1483750200379.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m6-greywalls-jc-e1483750210433.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m6-greywalls2-jc-e1483750178279.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits, Old Sandwich, Apache Stronghold, Pikewood National, Wade Hampton, Streamsong Blue, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald
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The 5th on our Modern Great 18 is Boston Golf Club #5, a par-4.
This hole is polarizing, and Jon and I are firmly in the camp of those who love it. The blind, uphill drive can be played out wide left or in tight to the nasty bunkers right. The safe left route leaves a testy approach that can be played high, low, or even putted, but the raised green is extremely shallow from that angle. From the right, the green is plenty deep, but the approach must be made over the bunker mound, which can partially obscure the view. The hole is extreme and unique, and a thrill to play.
As a side note, Ran and Tom discussed the hole with Jay Flemma on his recent radio show (worth a listen if you haven't checked it out). Ran expressed his dislike for the hole because the green is so small and elevated that it is nearly impossible to drive. Therefore, from Ran's perspective, the hole does not provide a reasonable enough reward to attempt to drive the green. Tom's perspective was that short does not necessarily equate to drivable vis a vis par-4s, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. It is a strange byproduct of the modern game that we have conflated short par-4s with drivable par-4s. The reality for the average golfer is that one is a smallish subset of the other. I have not spoken to anyone involved directly with the creation of the 5th at BGC, but I would be shocked if they gave much thought to the probability of a hole that is 300+ yards uphill ever being driven by the club's membership and typical guests. To me, this is a hole that was clearly intended to be played with two shots.
That is a broader debate for another thread, but suffice it to say for us, Boston Golf Club #5 is great.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc1-jc-e1483678619778.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc2-jc-e1483678637402.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc3-jc-e1483678657117.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc-jc-e1483678589518.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m5-bostongc4-jw-e1483678608642.jpg)
Our runners-up – Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue, Bandon Dunes, Sweetens Cove
Jason, Thanks for the great post. I also really liked the 5th at BGC, although I think I fall somewhere between Ran & Tom's opinion on the issue of drivability. I agree with Ran in the sense that the best short 4's are ones that create a genuine push & pull in the mind on whether or not to go for it. On the other hand, Tom's point that you can have a great short four that isn't drivable for 99%+ of the golfing is certainly very true & is an accurate summation of the interesting dynamic in play on this hole. As a side note, a good friend of mine and a poster on GCA absolutely hates this hole. While I do not share his opinion, I think the fact that the hole elicits such strong opinions is indicative of its inherent greatness.
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Curious of the Great 18's put forward here, would you say they generally play uphill or downhill overall?
Off the top of my head, I think more of our Moderns play uphill.
Why do you ask?t
I think there is a natural bias towards downhill holes and they are more photogenic too. I have a bias to uphill holes maybe because there are rarely water hazards near the green.
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While I really liked Greywalls [see The Confidential Guide], there's no way on earth I would have thought to nominate #6 as one of its best holes. It's dramatic, but forbidding and hit-or-miss; and when you miss, the variety on offer for recovery shots is heavily curtailed by the rocky terrain and the woods. It's a very good solution for getting from A to B over difficult ground, as is the par-4 before it, but that's a lot different than picking it as one of the best par-3's in America.
If your cut-off is really 1960, then the 6th at Crooked Stick and the 6th at The Golf Club, two of Mr. Dye's best holes, are clear omissions. Also, the best hole at Harvester in Iowa is the par-5 6th.
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Maybe you didn't want to go back-to-back par 5's but the 2nd hole at Ballyhack is one of the best holes I've seen (modern/classic). A fantastic risk/reward par 5 that plays differently depending on wind, tee shot placement and pin position and has played differently for me each time I've played it. A truly spectacular hole.
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Ahh shucks Tom. That hole ain't rocky....here is rocky!! ;D
(http://www.northidahoinfo.com/golf_properties/11th%20hole.jpg)
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While I really liked Greywalls [see The Confidential Guide], there's no way on earth I would have thought to nominate #6 as one of its best holes. It's dramatic, but forbidding and hit-or-miss; and when you miss, the variety on offer for recovery shots is heavily curtailed by the rocky terrain and the woods. It's a very good solution for getting from A to B over difficult ground, as is the par-4 before it, but that's a lot different than picking it as one of the best par-3's in America.
If your cut-off is really 1960, then the 6th at Crooked Stick and the 6th at The Golf Club, two of Mr. Dye's best holes, are clear omissions. Also, the best hole at Harvester in Iowa is the par-5 6th.
Tom,
Where is all the miss on Crooked #6? I've played it twice. Especially for the weaker golfer?
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6734/Y2xQpz.jpg)
I'll take my chances at Greywalls, rather hit off rocks then in the bottom of a pond. Plus I think i can score better at GW with a putter then CS with a putter. Haven't played GW, but it looks slightly easier from a weaker golfers perspective
(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/1416/gl7KW4.jpg)
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While I really liked Greywalls [see The Confidential Guide], there's no way on earth I would have thought to nominate #6 as one of its best holes. It's dramatic, but forbidding and hit-or-miss; and when you miss, the variety on offer for recovery shots is heavily curtailed by the rocky terrain and the woods. It's a very good solution for getting from A to B over difficult ground, as is the par-4 before it, but that's a lot different than picking it as one of the best par-3's in America.
If your cut-off is really 1960, then the 6th at Crooked Stick and the 6th at The Golf Club, two of Mr. Dye's best holes, are clear omissions. Also, the best hole at Harvester in Iowa is the par-5 6th.
I haven't played any of those courses. Not sure about Jason or Peter.
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Ben:
The hole at Greywalls is maybe 20 feet uphill, if memory serves me correctly. Maybe not if you climb all the way up to the back tee [but then you'll be out of breath]. I'll stand by my opinion of which is harder, and I've actually played both ;)
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I have not played those courses you mention either, Tom. Peter has played Crooked Stick (I think), but I don't think that the Dye aesthetic is his cup of tea. We'll see if he chimes in on the matter. Anyway, thanks for throwing those holes into the mix. Same to you on the Ballyhack #2 nomination JC. That is one I very much want to see, and I know that it is a course that Jon loves.
With regard to the 6th at Greywalls, I can't speak to it specifically, as I have not played it. But I can say that I do like a dose of adventure golf. Not 18 holes of it, but a dose. If you recall an old thread that I started on Sand Hollow and Wolf Creek, I said that I enjoyed the Wolf Creek experience, but I loved Sand Hollow. If splitting 10 rounds, it would be 10-0 in favor of Sand Hollow for me. One of the primary reasons for that is that Sand Hollow gives a few doses of adventure golf, while most of the course is strategic. Without the majority of the course being high quality strategic, the adventure would be overload for me. Without the dose of adventure, it wouldn't be among my favorites.
That is the essential reasoning behind my going with Jon's pick with this hole. I like being asked to hit a do-or-die shot once or twice during a round, and I find that ask to be relatively reasonable from 155 yards (which is the yardage from the middle tee on this hole). I especially like being asked to hit that shot in a setting where the "die" result includes the possibility of my ball doing something more interesting than splashing in a man-made pond. Do I want that demand made of me 18 times in a row? No. The choice of this hole however, satisfies my desire for that pulse-quickening wow.
Thanks all, for continuing to share your perspectives. You are adding courses to my to-do list and turning my gears, which is the whole point.
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There are 2 holes at The Honors course that I like a lot. The par 5 2nd hole is fantastic IMO. Pete often replicates this too often in his designs. He gives you a rope to hang yourself. He does a great job of rewarding the conservative play at the 2nd hole, while punishing one for missing on what they think is the side to miss. That is the golfer going for this short par 5 in 2.
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The 7th on our Modern Great 18 is Old Macdonald #7, a par-4.
Everything about this hole is cool. From the story of its collaborative creation, to its rippled fairway, to its awkward angles, to the thrilling ascent to its wonderful green site. This might be my favorite hole on the entire Bandon property.
This hole is also great in that it falls into the first-time-easiest-time category. Certain shots on certain holes get easier to execute with familiarity. They are like puzzles to be unlocked. Other holes, like this one, have shots that I think get harder when the player is fully aware of all of the ways that they can go wrong. The 2nd hole at Kingsley is like this. As Ben mentioned in a pervious post, that tee shot is in your head on the first tee. I have only played OM #7 once. I had no idea what was on top of that hill. The caddie pointed, gave me a yardage, and I hit the ball. When I got up to the green and found my ball on it, I felt a wave of good fortune wash over me as the realization hit that my approach could have bounced or rolled into numerous nasty spots. Now I know. When I go back, the information will be noisy in my head as I attempt that approach, making it a much greater challenge. To me, that is the great fun that some great holes deliver play after play.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m7-oldmacdonald1-jc-e1483832356861.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m7-oldmacdonald2-jc-e1483832368431.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m7-oldmacdonald3-jc-e1483832379855.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m7-oldmacdonald-jc-e1483832398689.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m7-oldmacdonald4-jc-e1483832389225.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Sand Valley, Ballyneal, Desert Forest, Dunes Club, Streamsong Red, Harbor Shores, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue, Bandon Dunes
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With regard to the 6th at Greywalls, I can't speak to it specifically, as I have not played it. But I can say that I do like a dose of adventure golf. Not 18 holes of it, but a dose. If you recall an old thread that I started on Sand Hollow and Wolf Creek, I said that I enjoyed the Wolf Creek experience, but I loved Sand Hollow. If splitting 10 rounds, it would be 10-0 in favor of Sand Hollow for me. One of the primary reasons for that is that Sand Hollow gives a few doses of adventure golf, while most of the course is strategic. Without the majority of the course being high quality strategic, the adventure would be overload for me. Without the dose of adventure, it wouldn't be among my favorites.
That is the essential reasoning behind my going with Jon's pick with this hole. I like being asked to hit a do-or-die shot once or twice during a round, and I find that ask to be relatively reasonable from 155 yards (which is the yardage from the middle tee on this hole). I especially like being asked to hit that shot in a setting where the "die" result includes the possibility of my ball doing something more interesting than splashing in a man-made pond. Do I want that demand made of me 18 times in a row? No. The choice of this hole however, satisfies my desire for that pulse-quickening wow.
Thanks all, for continuing to share your perspectives. You are adding courses to my to-do list and turning my gears, which is the whole point.
That is exactly why I think the 6th at Greywalls is great, and why I believe the course is much more akin to Sand Hollow (which I also love) and not Wolf Creek (which I enjoyed seeing but wouldn't rush back to) - it's a do or die hole, but the course isn't filled with them, making this hole all the more reasonable and exceptional (in my humble opinion). It's also quite beautiful and memorable, of course.
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OK you kids...two guys from Ft Worth TX by the names of Ben Hogan and Dan Jenkins did a "coffee table" book in the mid 1960's which was summarized in Sports Illustrated in 1965 based on the same question (obviously no modern/classic split). The result was as follows:
1 Merion 360yds
2 Scioto 436
3 Olympic-Lake 220
4 Baltusrol-Lower 183
5 Colonial (TX) 459
6 Seminole 388
7 Pine Valley 570
8 Prairie Dunes 424
9 Champions-Jackrabbit 538
10 Winged Foot-West 191
11 Merion 378
12 Augusta National 155
13 The Dunes (SC) 560
14 Cherry Hills (CO) 460
15 Oakmont 458
16 Oakland Hills 405
17 Quail Creek (OK) 459
18 Pebble Beach 530
Out 3578 (par 36); In 3596 (par 36); Total 7174 (par 72)
Pretty strong with balata and persimmon. I am certainly not saying this would be my best 18, but to my knowledge it was the first. And given it was by Hogan, we might excuse him for violating the "no more than one hole per course" rule invented almost 52 years later. ;)
The SI editions are Feb 15 and 22, 1965 and the write ups from SI can be found by searching the SI archive vault on the web.
BTW, the first time I played one of these 18 was in 1969 (PB--18), I got to 17 of 18 with Scioto #2, and completed these 18 with Quail Creek's 17th hole on November 6, 2016. :) :)
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BTW, the first time I played one of these 18 was in 1969 (PB--18), I got to 17 of 18 with Scioto #2, and completed these 18 with Quail Creek's 17th hole on November 6, 2016. :) :)
What did you shoot for the 18, and how did that compare with your handicap?
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BTW, the first time I played one of these 18 was in 1969 (PB--18), I got to 17 of 18 with Scioto #2, and completed these 18 with Quail Creek's 17th hole on November 6, 2016. :) :)
Paul:
I hope you realized when you got to Quail Creek that they have reversed the nines!
I was pretty underwhelmed with that hole, and tried to find out a bit of backstory about how it got selected. And one version I heard was that the hole Jenkins liked was the present 17th, but when he was ready to go to press they had reversed the nines, and he was kind of stuck with today's 8th because he had to use a 17th hole.
Of those 18 holes on Jenkins' list, there are only eleven that I would even put as potential candidates today. The stretch from 2-5 is particularly uninspiring.
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Tom,
I think the 2nd at Scioto is strong, maybe not top 18. One of my favorite driving holes. The 16th at Oakland is one of the weakest holes IMO. The 6th, 9th, or especially the 11th would have been the more logical selection.
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BTW, the first time I played one of these 18 was in 1969 (PB--18), I got to 17 of 18 with Scioto #2, and completed these 18 with Quail Creek's 17th hole on November 6, 2016. :) :)
What did you shoot for the 18, and how did that compare with your handicap?
Jim--Have absolutely no idea what I had the first time I played each of the holes (most of the 17 courses I have played more than once...have played Colonial, Scioto, Prairie Dunes, Champions and Quail Ck 1x...most want to play Prairie Dunes again). And of course between 1969 and 2016 my handicap has varied. I do remember very clearly the first time i played #13 at The Dunes it was April 1979...it had never been hit in 2 before. The trick was you has to hit a 3 wood off the tee and lay it up along the lake. If you hit a long drive (over say 235), the angle of the lakeshore meant you were further from the green than hitting a 3 wood 235. Put my second in right green side bunker, close but no cigar...did get a par there.
Paul
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BTW, the first time I played one of these 18 was in 1969 (PB--18), I got to 17 of 18 with Scioto #2, and completed these 18 with Quail Creek's 17th hole on November 6, 2016. :) :)
Paul:
I hope you realized when you got to Quail Creek that they have reversed the nines!
I was pretty underwhelmed with that hole, and tried to find out a bit of backstory about how it got selected. And one version I heard was that the hole Jenkins liked was the present 17th, but when he was ready to go to press they had reversed the nines, and he was kind of stuck with today's 8th because he had to use a 17th hole.
Of those 18 holes on Jenkins' list, there are only eleven that I would even put as potential candidates today. The stretch from 2-5 is particularly uninspiring.
Tom-- Very much agree with your overall assessment. Would point out that first efforts at anything are a tough slog. And with no internet, much less media (not all bad) doing a top 18 was not an easy task back then.
Regarding Quail (and agree, this hole did not strike me as an inspired choice) was not aware of the switch of the nines, but there is no question today's 17th was the hole in the book/article. #17 today is a 454 par 4 with a creek across the fairway about 70-90 yards from the green. #8 today is a 510 yard par 5 with a creek in the right and left rough (may have crossed the fairway in 1965) that is easily 245-255 from the green. The Jenkins hole was 459 yards with a creek about 80 yards from the green. The links below are to the SI write up of the back nine (2/22/65 issue) and the course tour from the QC website. In any case, I played all 18 last October so have finished Jenkins' 18 (for whatever that is worth :) )
Paul
http://www.si.com/vault/issue/42851/46/2
http://www.quailcreekgcc.com/Default.aspx?p=dynamicmodule&pageid=395258&ssid=317693&vnf=1
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Regarding Quail (and agree, this hole did not strike me as an inspired choice) was not aware of the switch of the nines, but there is no question today's 17th was the hole in the book/article. #17 today is a 454 par 4 with a creek across the fairway about 70-90 yards from the green. #8 today is a 510 yard par 5 with a creek in the right and left rough (may have crossed the fairway in 1965) that is easily 245-255 from the green.
Paul:
Sorry, I screwed up in how I told that. I know the hole they used ... there was a board game based on the Great 18 I had when I was maybe 13 or 14. [My brother and I started designing more interesting holes for it.] But what I was told was that Jenkins had really liked the other hole, and had to switch to the 17th at the last minute because they reversed the nines. [Though it does not seem likely that his course would have ended with back to back par-5's.]
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The 8th on our Modern Great 18 is Ballyneal #8, a par-5.
A rumpled fairway that winds past a fairway bunker complex right and another short of the green left runs right into a green that I would put on the wild end of the spectrum that I have seen from Mr. Doak's crew. The length of the hole goads the player into going for the green in two. Nasty bunkers, uneven lies, and the green itself amount to the rope with which one can hang oneself.
I arrived at Ballyneal in the evening and went out to play the whiskey loop. The green back view that I captured in the photo below was my first look at this beautiful hole. Looking at the photo now, having played the whole course, it strikes me as a visual microcosm of Ballyneal. This wonderful course is my favorite of the Renaissance portfolio to date.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m8-ballyneal2-jw-e1483917504725.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m8-ballyneal1-jw-e1483917494408.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m8-ballyneal-jw-e1483917483547.jpg)
Our runners-up – Bandon Trails, Sand Hills, CommonGround, The Rawls Course, French Creek, Sweetens Cove
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While I know this all subjective...
I woulda included #7 at Ballyneal and went with a different #8. BN 7 is such a unique hole...
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While I know this all subjective...
I woulda included #7 at Ballyneal and went with a different #8. BN 7 is such a unique hole...
Good call. That was definitely considered.
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That 8th green IS one of the most severe we've ever built. We tried perhaps too hard to include the upper right hole location, because it looks so awesome up there from the tee and the approach shot -- it fits right under the peak of the big dune in the background. When it's on the rest of the green, the flag tends to get lost in the back bunker and the dune grasses.
It is really too severe if you hit your approach shot back right and then have to putt down to the rest of the green ... although, you would be pretty stupid to hit it up there under those circumstances, or else you were being way too cute trying to use the slope in the green to funnel back to the hole, and missed long.
I would've gone with Ballyneal #12 myself; I think that's what we did in The Confidential Guide. But the fairway on #8 is truly stunning and 98% natural, and I love how it narrows down like an hourglass right where the long hitter wants to go ... unless he is an animal like their former pro, who could carry the cross bunkers from the tee if the hole was not into the wind!
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While I can't fault any of the stretch for 3-8, I'll offer up a few suggestions that I would have included for each of them:
3rd Hole:
Kiawah Ocean Course. Maybe my favorite hole on the course, I really like it because while it's a short 4, it's not necessarily drivable short
4th Hole:
Streamsong Blue. A lot to pick from for SS Blue in my opinion, but this is one of the more unique holes out there
World Woods Pine Barren. The best hole on the course and one that gets mentioned in any conversation of Fazio's best
5th Hole:
Cuscowilla. Another short 4, this time drivable. Definitely dictated by the pin position too, even though the green is tiny!
6th Hole:
Whistling Straits. My favorite hole on the course and the green is really fun/difficult with the cavernous bunker
7th Hole:
Crooked Stick. This hole gets overlooked a bit, but I love the blind green (the line is much farther left than it appears, but right is a shorter shot) and then green is awesome
Desert Forest. I love this alternate fairway par 5. Really interesting options here.
Streamsong Red. Absolutely one of the best par 5s I've played. I love the inverted bunker and how it influences play.
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8th Hole:
Streamsong Red. Absolutely one of the best par 5s I've played. I love the inverted bunker and how it influences play.
That's the 7th. The 8th is the little par-3.
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Taking the uncoveted 74th reply position...
Regarding the 8th hole at Ballyneal, when I see that the pin is located back right, I recommend laying up to a comfortable wedge distance. When the back bowl is working properly (meaning when the grasses are dry, tight and cooperative), it's easy to land somewhere in the bowl or on the backstops, and leave yourself a short birdie putt. So the odd pin position does have strategic consequences.
It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see a woman's head and breasts "buried" under the green. The hole location between the three mounds is used less often these days, but it is a doozy, so difficult in fact that I sometimes try to play for the front left of the green from under 100 yards.
I just showed my wife a picture of the green, and asked her if this looks like a head and two breasts. She replied with a smirk. "No."
A little color commentary from a longtime club member.
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8th Hole:
Streamsong Red. Absolutely one of the best par 5s I've played. I love the inverted bunker and how it influences play.
That's the 7th. The 8th is the little par-3.
Correct, thanks. I always get those mixed up.
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Thanks all for continuing to share your thoughts and nominations. Getting some others on Twitter and Instagram. I'll compile them at the end.
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The 9th on our Modern Great 18 is Erin Hills #9, a par-3.
I'm not sure if it is possible for a hole to look windy, but if so, this one-shotter does. The green is beautifully set, floating in a sea of fescue, and is surrounded by artful bunkers. The putting surface is big, but it plays smaller because it is divided into two sections by a trough. Playing safely to the center of the green leaves the player with the potential for a real putting adventure.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m9-erinhills2-jc-e1484014329522.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m9-erinhills3-jw-e1484014317729.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m9-erinhills-jc-e1484014347185.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m9-erinhills4-jw-e1484014357170.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m9-erinhills1-jw-e1484014338320.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Friars Head, Crooked Stick, Honors Course, Streamsong Red, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald
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No.
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The ninth at Old Macdonald? Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?
The ninth at Friars Head and the ninth at Streamsong (Red) are two of the most severe greens Bill Coore has ever done. I love both of them, and would hate to have to choose between them. But I keep wondering why Bill can build greens like those, and nobody labels him as one who builds crazy greens? My crew all thought the one at Streamsong was more severe than anything we built there.
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Some terrific looking holes here. Thanks for posting and debating. Most interesting.
I can't help thinking though about how difficult the greens (green complexes) seem.
Makes me think of the discussion on these two recent threads -
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64005.0.html - "Difficult greens are the key to building a great golf course"
&
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64007.0.html - "Don't design from a position of fear"
Atb
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No.
Post of the year so far :D
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Interesting choice. The 9th hole at Erin Hills is very short, only 143 yards when the course is played at 6700 yards (165 when played at 7800). It is a very convex green complex; everything not in the center of the green goes downhill somewhere. It will only be a 8-iron or 9-iron for the pros this year, but I'm guessing it will have a relatively high scoring average for its size (3.1 - 3.2). I'll guess I withhold judgment until we see the pros play it this June.
I'll put my two cents in for Stone Eagle's 9th hole, when played from the original back tee, from which you tee off over the 8th green (418 yards, way downhill), or from the short alternate tee box next to the 8th green (about 310 yards, still downhill). The other commonly used tee boxes are aligned further right, a different angle which I consider a significant downgrade.
The cant of the 9th green fools the first time visitor more than any other I've seen. The green looks pretty flat, tucked into one of the course's natural rock piles, but it slopes hard from front right to back left. The prevailing slope of the land is well hidden here, and short shots around the green sometimes yield embarrassing misjudgements.
I include Stone Eagle #9 for its beauty and as an example of a mountainside green that baffles the first time player. It's a medium difficult hole.
This photo was taken by ace photographer Larry Lambrecht.
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/b7263035-8c15-4f16-b7f4-0f5e2bc9a2b6_zps1psm68nr.jpg) (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/johnmkirk/media/b7263035-8c15-4f16-b7f4-0f5e2bc9a2b6_zps1psm68nr.jpg.html)
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The ninth at Old Macdonald? Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?
Can't remember whether it was Peter or Jon, but knowing Jon's love of a good Cape hole, my guess would be that that was a Jon nomination.
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No.
Are you sure?
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That is a beautiful photo, and hole, John. Thank you for pitching it in to the pot.
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No.
Are you sure?
Jason:
Yes.
The 9th at Erin Hills was originally a throw away bye hole, not even part of the 18 hole course. Its a fairly one-dimensional par 3, a hit the green or else shot. Its no where close to being the best hole on the course, which I would think would have to be the case for any hole on your list. The setting is nice, but certainly nothing worthy of promoting it over the many, many other viable options.
There are too many other "great" 9th holes out there. That the 9th at Bandon Trails hasn't entered the conversation is a miss. If you were looking specifically for a par 3 in this slot, the 9th at Chambers Bay presents much more interest than the hole you selected. I'm also a fan of the 9th at Blackstone in Phoenix, but there's a hole later in the course which would be my preferred nomination for that course.
I like the idea of this thread, but it seems like the frame of reference you started with is too small to be convincing. Perhaps my issue is with how you've titled the list, as "America's Great 18's." "18 Holes from Courses in America that Three Guys Liked" would have been a bit more accurate. Or in turn, you could have thrown out the nomination process to the whole group to see what might have resulted from expanding the panel beyond the three guys who haven't even seen every modern course out there worthy of inclusion.
Just my thoughts,
Sven
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I will second Sven's nomination of the 9th hole at Bandon Trails, which is one of my favorites on the course. It's the only hole on the course that feels like you are in the tall Douglas firs, so its appearance is somewhat unique for the course. In addition to possessing great beauty, it has a wonderful second shot. The landing area gradually narrows from 100-160 yards away. Also, long drives tempt a second shot to the green, and there's a big bailout area left of the green, which allows some nifty short grass, short shots.
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Alrighty, here is where we stand thus far...
We have determined that Sven does not want to be the fourth in a group with Jon, Peter and me. Pity. We are good company.
Beyond that, I have compiled the nominations from commenters here, Twitter, and Instagram. The front nine is below - our pick, and then the alternatives (our runners-up are *ed). I invite and encourage you to create a Modern outward nine that is greater than ours from the choices below, or add other holes from your playing experience. Remember the 2 rules (if you care to follow them): 1) you have to have played the course, and 2) only one hole per course.
If you really want to be a superstar, take into account balance of difficulty and the flow of the holes vis a vis par, uphill/downhill, direction, etc. and share the thinking behind each of your selections.
Looking back on the front nine that we did, I can see that we tended to pick difficult holes, although that was not conscious on our part. What was conscious was avoiding holes that were boring in favor of those that were memorable and thrilling to play. Especially given that we have only played some of these courses once, Tom's observation that the holes that stand out tend toward the extreme of design was astute.
Anywho, without further ado, the front nine compilation:
#1 - Sand Hills
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyneal, Bayside, Boston Golf Club*, Dunes Club, Kingsley, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Sweetens Cove, Tobacco Road, Wolf Run
#2 - Sebonack
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyhack, Ballyneal, Bandon Preserve, Boston GC, Desert Forest, Dismal Red, Erin Hills*, Harbour Town, Hidden Creek, Kingsley Club*, Kinloch, Lost Dunes*, Old MacDonald*, Old Sandwich, Pacific Dunes, Rock Creek, Rustic Canyon, Sand Valley*, Snake River Sporting Club, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Stone Eagle, Talking Stick North*, Wolf Point
#3 - Bandon Trails
Alternatives - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal*, Black Forest*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, CommonGround*, Erin Hills*, Kiawah Ocean, Mauna Kea, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Valley*, Spyglass Hill*, Wade Hampton*
#4 - Bandon Dunes
Alternatives - Dismal White, Dunes Club*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Hills*, Spyglass Hill*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Sweetens Cove, World Woods Pine Barrens
#5 - Boston Golf Club
Alternatives - Arcadia Bluffs, Bandon Dunes*, Cuscowilla, Old Sandwich*, Streamsong Blue*, Sweetens Cove*
#6 - Marquette Greywalls
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Kinloch, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Pikewood National*, Streamsong Blue*, The Golf Club, Wade Hampton*, Whistling Straits*
#7 - Old Macdonald
Alternatives - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Desert Forest*, Dunes Club*, Harbor Shores*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hills, Sand Valley*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*
#8 - Ballyneal
Alternatives - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, French Creek*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*
#9 - Erin Hills
Alternatives - Bandon Trails, Blackstone, Boston GC, Chambers Bay, Crooked Stick*, Friars Head*, Honors Course*, Old Macdonald*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Stone Eagle
Modern Back Nine, coming soon...
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We have determined that Sven does not want to be the fourth in a group with Jon, Peter and me. Pity. We are good company.
Jason:
I think you're taking my criticism a bit too personally.
Sven
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Regarding the 6th--
Tom, I've played Crooked Stick before and completely agree that it's an awesome hole, it just did not pop into my mind because I was so enthused over Pacific and Old Mac. The 6th at Crooked Stick I don't think is any better than the runner ups that Jason mentioned. Visually, sure, it's incredible. It's a solid hole in my opinion but I don't think it's one that is clearly more discussed than others in gca in general. And I realize the same of Greywalls, but I had not played it so I had no objections really. Personally my favorite modern 6th that I have played I would say has to be Pacific. I don't think there is anything cooler than a hole with a short approach that deathly intimidates the golfer. In my opinion, it's the only way a scratch player is as scared as the 18 handicap. I like to see these holes as they are immune from technological advances. Example, I think the 3rd at Fishers is a near perfect golf hole. It will never be overrun by technology given the known death you will face if you miss the green on the 2nd shot. Pretty much the same with the 10th
I think it's important to realize these lists were comprised of simply the courses that Jason, Jon, and myself have played.
Regarding the 9th, I think it's fascinating watching a golfer have to step up and hit a 140 yard shot. It's a do-don't. What is so different about this hole than the 6th at Roaring Gap which more or less is the same concept and gets a bunch of love from the likes of Ran? I also think that it is very cool that the 9th at EH is the only untouched hole since inception on property. Am I an Erin Hills lover? No. But I had always wanted to despise the place given its modernism and the fact I heard it was unbearable to walk. But after playing 36 out there, I liked it. The line I used was, "it's a course i really didnt want to like but walked away saying this is a place i don't mind in small doses." Not to mention, for a U.S. Open, I think it;s going to be awesome to watch given how many options they have.
As for other options for the 9th, I loved all the runner ups. I haven't played FH although I think SS-R SS-B OM crooked stick and honors are all really architectural stimulating holes.
Maybe it should've been branded more as "18 holes from cool courses which 3 guys have played". It's 22 degrees outside here, Jason had a cool idea, just trying to spark up some conversation.
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I think you're taking my criticism a bit too personally.
Not at all. Looking forward to more of your nominations.
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Honestly, the more "definitive" you try to get with concepts like this, the less interesting the threads become. Sure, if someone wanted to find the 18 best holes on modern courses, you'd get a more representative sampling by expanding beyond a group of three guys who "haven't seen every modern course worthy of inclusion," whatever that means. But then we'd also just end up talking about the same damn holes and courses that we always talk about, and that thread would be boring as hell right up until the point at which it devolved into a shouting match because some doofus is actually convinced that he's objectively correct about what the best 9th hole on a modern course in the world is. And yeah, Twitter Club Atlas would get a kick out of it and I'd get a kick out of that, but I get a much bigger kick out of threads that make me facepalm for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones.
The 9th at Erin Hills? Yeah, I facepalmed when I read it. But for the right reasons, which is to say "Because it made me want to discuss architecture rather than bitch and catfight."
Because as much as I love Erin Hills, and as much as I even love the 9th hole and think it's a legitimately excellent if somewhat overly diabolical par 3, for all the reasons that Jason's post mentioned, I just can't believe that the 9th would be the right answer from Erin Hills if we're limited to one hole from each course in this exercise. The 12th and 15th are two of the coolest par 4s in the world - after several visits to the property I still don't know the "right way" to play either one, and I think that's reflective of great design. I also think they both feature some of the coolest glaciated terrain on a course whose calling card is awesome glaciated terrain. The 9th, as good a hole as it is, could have been replicated in concept on any property that had a 150-ish yard downhill shot waiting to be incorporated into the routing at some point. But the 12th/15th really sum up the Erin Hills experience in a nutshell, aside from their lack of length. And even that tells us something about the Erin Hills experience, as does the inclusion of the 2nd hole as an also-ran and the 9th hole in the Great 18 list. Four of the best holes on an impossibly long and tough course happen to be holes that are more sporty and confounding than legitimately brutal. And that says something about what Erin Hills does right, and also what Erin Hills does wrong. The balance between the good and bad has always been the most fascinating part of Erin Hills for me even if I didn't realize it, and this little exercise made that revelation clear in a way that it hadn't been before. And revelations like that don't happen when we're discussing the same old holes on the same old courses that we always discuss when we get into the same old threads that ask us to pretend personal preferences, biases, and experiences don't exist and to instead focus on the most objectively "correct" answers we can come up with.
Even though Erin Hills' 9th is a really good hole, I'm not sure that it's the best 9th hole on a modern course in Wisconsin. I'd give that nod to Blackwolf Run River. Like the 9th at Erin Hills, it's a really cool short hole. The similarities stop there though. Blackwolf's 9th is cool because it presents so many options without just presenting an open canvas for any old braindead duffer to whack his Kirkland ball across without thinking. The 9th at Erin Hills doesn't really present an option - you pretty much know what you need to do even if you may not be fully aware of the consequences for different degrees of failure to execute. The 9th at Blackwolf presents between 3 and 5 legitimate options to a fairly competent player, but it forces him to think them through and commit to one in a way that most option-laden holes don't. And in that way, it sums up the Blackwolf Run River experience. It's a sporty hole that has some clear risk/reward implications and gives you all the rope you need to reach the pinnacle, whether you choose to do it by scaling a cliff or walking up a gentle incline, but it also gives you enough to hang yourself on the way up.
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Jason,
Did you all give consideration to some of the holes on the Red Course at Dismal? It's very strong out of the gate, in my opinion.
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Fantastic post, Jason. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Good to finally hear from you PGKorbs.
Rob, none of us have played Dismal Red (I'm almost positive about that). Are any of the holes our there better than the front nine we selected? And if so, why? Very interested to hear your perspective.
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The ninth at Old Macdonald? Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?
The ninth at Friars Head and the ninth at Streamsong (Red) are two of the most severe greens Bill Coore has ever done. I love both of them, and would hate to have to choose between them. But I keep wondering why Bill can build greens like those, and nobody labels him as one who builds crazy greens? My crew all thought the one at Streamsong was more severe than anything we built there.
I think the 9th at SS Red is not that severe compared to several others, Number 1 on Red is tougher. And Bandon Trails has several greens that are more severe.
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After a quick stop for modern golf's best halfway house snack (Streamsong BBQ), we are back with the 10th on our Modern Great 18, Chambers Bay #10, a par-4.
There several things about this hole that we think are great. First, the view from this tee is magnificent. It is a feast for the eyes with the large, flanking dunes and Puget Sound beyond. Amidst all of the earthmoving that went into creating Chambers Bay, the fact that this beautiful hole was basically found adds to its mystique.
For those of you more inclined toward the left brain, the 10th provides plenty of strategic options to turn the gears. Send the drive down the right to get closer, and sacrifice the best angle of approach into the diagonally set green? Or lay back down the left for a better angle, but a longer approach? To add further interest, the green can be approached on the ground by using the front-left slope that will feed well-judged balls all the way to back-right pin positions.
And finally, we are suckers for detail and this green, with cool contours, bunkers, stairs, and paths is right up our alley. I don't love every hole at Chambers Bay, but this one is the total package.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m10-chambersbay-jc-e1484181209533.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m10-chambersbay2-jc-e1484181221386.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m10-chambersbay3-jc-e1484181230233.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Colorado GC, Boston Golf Club, Harbor Shores, WeKoPa Saguaro, Pacific Dunes, Ballyhack
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Fantastic post, Jason. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Good to finally hear from you PGKorbs.
Rob, none of us have played Dismal Red (I'm almost positive about that). Are any of the holes our there better than the front nine we selected? And if so, why? Very interested to hear your perspective.
I really like the fourth on the Red. I think its one of the best holes in the Sand Hills. There are multiple options off of the tee, and each route has its positives & negatives. When you add the shifting winds, it amounts to a hole that rarely plays the same from one round to the next. On the tee, you'll find yourself working your way through the various scenarios in your mind as you weigh the best option. Being a sucker for trying to gain an advantage off the tee, I found that it was an irresistible temptation to try to get it close to the green when it was playing downwind. Of course, you bring a big number into play by trying to squeeze it into the neck in front of the green, but that is a big part of the fun of the hole. Overall, it has everything to like in a golf hole: options, width, strategy, a great green setting, and an ability to change complexion from round to round.
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Interesting little nugget re: Chambers Bay that Jay Blasi just tweeted to me:
"For clarification, 10 was entirely created, not found. The fairway is a giant (20-40') cut through a "sand" stockpile. Hit clay layer in cut."
The lore surrounding the creation of the hole debunked by the man who had a hand in creating it.
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I love the 10th hole at chambers Bay.
Manufactured or found, doesn't matter much to me. The hole is thrilling both visually and to play! And the walk off the back of the green to have everything open up again works well to boot. It just might be might favorite hole at CB.
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The 11th on our Modern Great 18 is Lost Dunes #11, a par-4.
The hole is challenging throughout, playing uphill between flanking bunkers left and right. The right bunker that separates the 11th from the 12th is terrific, and not a place to be.
The true greatness of this hole is at the green - a wonderfully undulating putting surface set amongst the trees up in the saddle of the massive dune that separates Lost Dunes from I94. After holing out, the player gets a stellar view back out across this section of property where one of my favorite stretches of holes in all of golf begins.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m11-lostdunes2-jc-e1484282131111.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m11-lostdunes3-jc-e1484282144946.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m11-lostdunes1-jw.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m11-lostdunes-jc-e1484282107704.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m11-lostdunes4-jc-e1484282157429.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Sebonack, Boston Golf Club, Sand Hollow, Ballyneal, Desert Forest, Bayonne, Old Macdonald
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Eleven at Lost Dunes is one of my personal favorites of holes that we've built. I just loved the green setting and the half-bowl-within-a-bowl top right hole location. Hitting a long approach over that deep bunker and using the hill at the back to contain it on the upper level is a real thrill.
During the construction project, that deep bunker acquired a name, which I don't believe is well known. After one of my visits, the client Jeff Shearer was giving me a ride back to Chicago to go to the airport, and I mentioned to him that my wife and I had decided to divorce, so I said, "If I dig any really deep bunkers, maybe that's why." We had always planned to make the bunker on #11 deep, but Jeff didn't know that, and when he went back out on his next visit and saw the bunker, he asked my lead associate Tom Mead what my wife's name was?
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The 12th on our Modern Great 18 is Kingsley Club #12, a par-4.
A whole without bunkers is a joy to behold, especially one that is laid as elegantly on the land as the twelfth. Playing downhill into a valley with a fairway flowing off the hill right to a narrow, deep green set off another hill left, it rewards the player who is creative enough to use the slopes to their advantage.
The green itself is packed with subtle and confounding breaks and has a runoff right that provides options for tricky little recoveries. Coming off the green, the player is treated to one of the best views on a course where natural beauty abounds.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m12-kingsley3-jc-e1484363866528.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m12-kingsley2-jc-e1484363855716.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m12-kingsleyclub1-jw-e1484363876706.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m12-kingsley-jc-e1484363842548.jpg)
Our runners-up – Talking Stick North, Arcadia Bluffs, The Rawls Course, Wolf Creek, Black Forest, Erin Hills, Honors Course, Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes
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Regarding the 6th--
Tom, I've played Crooked Stick before and completely agree that it's an awesome hole, it just did not pop into my mind because I was so enthused over Pacific and Old Mac. The 6th at Crooked Stick I don't think is any better than the runner ups that Jason mentioned.
Maybe it should've been branded more as "18 holes from cool courses which 3 guys have played". It's 22 degrees outside here, Jason had a cool idea, just trying to spark up some conversation.
Peter:
The main reason I mentioned the 6th holes at Crooked Stick and The Golf Club was that I thought having a list of great modern holes with several of mine and none of Pete Dye's [few of which are even mentioned in the runners-up so far] was highly biased toward the courses of the last 15 years. My tastes in par-3 holes are different than most people's so I didn't expect everyone would agree with me on the specific point, but hopefully the general point will make some think twice.
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That's a fair point, Tom. I have not played many Pete Dye courses, and with the exception of Whistling Straits, the ones I have played (ASU, Paiute Wolf, Irish Course, Radrick Farms) are not among his best. I think that Peter and Jon have played more of his courses than I have, but I don't think they are big fans of his aesthetic.
Given how well traveled the crew around here is, I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes. Same thing with Jack Nicklaus, Tom Fazio, the Jones Family, even Mike Strantz.
Anyone brave enough? Bueller?
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#8 - Ballyneal
Alternatives - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, French Creek*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*
I am very surprised by your inclusion of French Creek's 8th hole. I really like French Creek but that may be one of the least good holes on that course in my opinion. A nice connector hoe at best.
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That's a fair point, Tom. I have not played many Pete Dye courses, and with the exception of Whistling Straits, the ones I have played (ASU, Paiute Wolf, Irish Course, Radrick Farms) are not among his best. I think that Peter and Jon have played more of his courses than I have, but I don't think they are big fans of his aesthetic.
Given how well traveled the crew around here is, I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes. Same thing with Jack Nicklaus, Tom Fazio, the Jones Family, even Mike Strantz.
Anyone brave enough? Bueller?
Jason,
Radrick Farms are not among his best
I am assuming that you are going by the rankings of Pete's best courses? What I have learned through age, being on GCA.com, and also Doak's book AOGC that many times the rankings are way off and people let a Clubs power, history, and tournament hosting roster influence their opinion. I have played The Honors, Crooked, and Radrick. When Doak says Crooked #6 is one of Pete's best par 3 IHO, I question the point of myself playing more Pete Dye courses. The hole is average at best and the red barn bridge definitely helps the hole. The point I am trying to make more the less is that some courses have 1 or maybe 2 great holes with some okay and weak holes. It seems like in order to get considered as a great hole in this exercise, the hole has to be on a great course. Maybe B sides is in order....
I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes
I nominated too late Honors #2, should have Radrick #2. I'll nominate Honors #13. I'll nominate Radrick #14 as my favorite Pete Dye hole (I'll post photos later). I wish I'd of played the original 17th at Crooked, I feel I would of liked it a lot. I think 13 is the best par 3 at Crooked now.
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I nominated too late Honors #2, should have Radrick #2. I'll nominate Honors #13. I'll nominate Radrick #14 as my favorite Pete Dye hole (I'll post photos later). I wish I'd of played the original 17th at Crooked, I feel I would of liked it a lot. I think 13 is the best par 3 at Crooked now.
There are plenty of other threads debating course rankings right now, so I don't want to go down that road. However, I agree about #14 at Radrick, and I thought #8 on that course was great too - oversights on my part. There were some holes that I really liked on the other Pete Dye courses that I played, but none that popped to mind specifically as I was making my nominations with Jon and Peter.
As this thread continues to unfold, I would love to see more of the advocates of Messrs Dye, Fazio, Nicklaus, Palmer, Jones, etc step up and nominate holes by number to broaden our mix. Peter, Jon and I obviously have similar taste, which results in a certain degree of style homogeneity in our picks.
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I am very surprised by your inclusion of French Creek's 8th hole. I really like French Creek but that may be one of the least good holes on that course in my opinion. A nice connector hoe at best.
I haven't played French Creek, so I can't speak to that one Mike. I believe that it was a Jon Cavalier pick. What other holes at French Creek, if any, do you think belong in the conversation? Do you think that there is a better #8 than the one we picked, or the others we nominated? I got thoroughly roasted on Twitter by Shelman for not picking #8 at Sand Hills. Your thoughts?
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Ok, I will just start with my favorite holes at French Creek on the front nine.
#1 - A great very uphill opener where the tee blends into the fairway.
#2 - A rolicking good 4.5 hole with width and a real challenge at the green pad.
#6 - An uphill par 5 that while reachable with two shots is very well protected from 200 yards to the hole
#9 - plays like an Alps hole.
That is just the front nine, back nine is just as good if not better (lows are higher highs are lower).
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Wow, a 5.5 on the Doak scale for The Honors and Crooked Stick!?! Harsh!! I guess you just really don't like Dye courses, because those are in his top 10 by most accounts.
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The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one. It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.
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I have only played a couple Dye courses, but the 5th at Blackwolf Run River is beautiful, strategic, and difficult but fair.
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The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one. It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.
I may have screwed up the numbering of the holes at French Creek. The hole that I meant to nominate is the Bottle-like hole with the duel fairways split by bunkers. This one:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/336/31474708934_9e92a28cf8_c.jpg)
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's the 9th
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I'd also nominate the 9th at Monterey Peninsula Dunes (if we're counting substantial restorations as moderns) and the 10th at Monterey Peninsula Shore, both of which which I thought were excellent par-5s:
No. 9 Dunes:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/777/32197377451_8e83f1a41b_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/32277954736_3bd99f7630_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/260/32277956456_e9f1065c5c_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/542/32277957776_8d23a1350d_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/682/31506131353_bd4cfbff88_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/682/32316739585_fd78609d00_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/635/32316740685_817310bfdd_c.jpg)
No. 10 Shore:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/622/32316928075_d81234e88f_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/682/31940163560_78204005db_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/458/31475222404_844960ac21_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/617/31506329633_b4cbb9a08c_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/636/32316933605_ccd9fc56ab_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5606/31475226564_1f49b3f626_c.jpg)
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I suspected that your visit to CA might yield new nominations, Jon. Thanks for sharing those photos. Both holes look gorgeous, fun, and plenty tough.
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Jon:
I have not been to MPCC in a long time, so I haven't seen the new Dunes course, but it looks like the hole pictured is what used to be #9 -- the par-5 down into a low pocket, just before the par-3 playing to 17-Mile-Drive. So did they somehow change the routing to have this one hole earlier, or is it the 9th?
PS Yes, your picture is the 9th at French Creek, and that's the hole I would have nominated.
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The 13th on our Modern Great 18 is Pacific Dunes #13, a par-4. This terrific hole is a favorite of Jon's on what might be his favorite modern course (Peter and I are fans of the 13th as well).
Running north along the cliff, the fairway is quite generous, but looks anything but. Such is the power of the ocean to intimidate. The best angle into the elevated green is gained by taking a line as close to the cliff as possible. It is a real "hike up your knickers" moment in a round at PD. There is plenty of room to bail out right, but that position brings bunkers, and the enormous dune right of the green into play.
The green itself is no pushover either, with its false front and ample internal contours. Add to that mix the whipping wind that can affect even short putts, and the 13th is more than able to provide a flatstick adventure.
In terms of rugged, natural, and awe-inspiring beauty, the Pacific Ocean and that massive dune conspire to put the 13th in a category of greatness all its own.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m13-pacificdunes1-jc-e1484494932543.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m13-pacificdunes2-jc-e1484494940952.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m13-pacificdunes4-jc-e1484494911686.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m13-pacificdunes3-jc-e1484494950109.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m13-pacificdunes-jc-e1484494922479.jpg)
Our runners-up – Sand Hollow, Wade Hampton, Whistling Straits, Kingsley Club, WeKoPa Saguaro, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald
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The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one. It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.
I may have screwed up the numbering of the holes at French Creek. The hole that I meant to nominate is the Bottle-like hole with the duel fairways split by bunkers. This one:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/336/31474708934_9e92a28cf8_c.jpg)
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's the 9th
Yes I agree. That is #9.
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Jon:
I have not been to MPCC in a long time, so I haven't seen the new Dunes course, but it looks like the hole pictured is what used to be #9 -- the par-5 down into a low pocket, just before the par-3 playing to 17-Mile-Drive. So did they somehow change the routing to have this one hole earlier, or is it the 9th?
PS Yes, your picture is the 9th at French Creek, and that's the hole I would have nominated.
Geez, Tom. You're right - that's the 9th at MPCC Dunes. I had it correct at first, then second guessed myself and changed it to the 8th.
Too much golf, I suppose.
Jon Cavalier
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I was going to save my comment about the 13th at Pacific until anyone else had posted about it ... but no one did! Does that mean there's no argument about its place in the Pantheon, or that no one has much to say about it?
From my perspective, it may be the most beautiful hole we've ever built, and I'm fond of it because it is almost 100% natural from the property we started with. Yet I don't think it's one of the most interesting holes we've built, or even one of the most interesting holes at Pacific Dunes. I'd pick #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 16 as holes with more strategic interest.
And that seems like a microcosm of the rankings of golf courses, generally. The most dramatic oceanfront property always comes first, as long as the golf is reasonably interesting, regardless of the strategic merits of the competition.
On the other hand, I can't think of a better modern 13th hole right away. Perhaps I'm biased in favor of holes where I feel like I had more to do with creating them, I don't know.
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I was going to save my comment about the 13th at Pacific until anyone else had posted about it ... but no one did! Does that mean there's no argument about its place in the Pantheon, or that no one has much to say about it?
From my perspective, it may be the most beautiful hole we've ever built, and I'm fond of it because it is almost 100% natural from the property we started with. Yet I don't think it's one of the most interesting holes we've built, or even one of the most interesting holes at Pacific Dunes. I'd pick #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 16 as holes with more strategic interest.
And that seems like a microcosm of the rankings of golf courses, generally. The most dramatic oceanfront property always comes first, as long as the golf is reasonably interesting, regardless of the strategic merits of the competition.
On the other hand, I can't think of a better modern 13th hole right away. Perhaps I'm biased in favor of holes where I feel like I had more to do with creating them, I don't know.
Perhaps the fact that you were wise enough to leave nature alone is what makes this hole great.
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My passing thought about Pacific Dunes #13 today was that it comes close to being a consensus choice for best 13th hole in America. A strong argument can be made for Augusta National #13, if we include both modern and classic courses. But my guess is that this choice is the least disputable of the 18 holes offered in this thread.
I consider the "shot values" at Pacific Dunes #13 to be excellent. It works well both into the wind and downwind. Driving the ball to the left side is riskier but gives a better angle to approach the green. I've also had the pleasure of pushing my second shot way right, only to watch the ball hit the sand 20-30 feet above the green, and roll down the dune into the greenside sand. And the walk up to the 13th green is glorious.
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On its own, the last line of Tom's post #120 is one of the most interesting I've read on here for a very long while. But then it is made more interesting by the responses that follow, from two experienced and insightful members.
Could it be that the land/nature, left alone and as it is, yields more good golf/strategy than can be imagined even by an architect who understands maybe better than anyone what an undisturbed site can and does yield in terms of strategic golf?
Tom himself seems to suggest this in that last line of his, i.e. "where I feel like I had more to do with creating them" [emphasis mine]. He didn't say "where I know" I had more to do with it, or even "where I thought" I had more to do with it. To me, the stress on the word "feeling" reminds me of that line from Pascal: the heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing about.
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Peter:
I've always said I had two kinds of favorite holes -- the ones that were mostly there and I just found, and the ones where we had to do something creative in order to make them cool. [At Pacific Dunes, a hole from the latter category would be the 8th, or the 9th.]
And I did have a fair amount to do with the strategy of the 13th hole, too. It was easy to see what was laying there ... the only real decision to make was where to make the fairway end on the right side of the hole and transition to bunkers and native sand. By letting the fairway be very wide in the landing area and then pinching in the approach a bit -- which was narrower naturally, anyway -- we made the approach from the "safe" right side of the fairway much tougher than if you can drive it left.
Also, leaving the heavily crowned nature of the landing area fairly much alone was something that not every other architect would have done.
But there are lots and lots of holes that offer that same sort of strategy, aren't there? I don't believe this hole has much more nuance than a lot of those other holes. It's just more dramatic, because of the huge dune to the right of the green, and its 440 yards of Pacific Ocean frontage, which is more than all but three holes in America ... the 18th and 9th at Pebble Beach, and the 4th at Pacific Dunes, all of which show up on these lists fairly frequently.
So, it's the same question I ask about my courses as a whole: am I always inspired to do my very best work when I'm right next to the ocean, and I'm just not as inspired when I'm inland? Or is the oceanfront just worth ten points on a 100-point scale?
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It seems to me, the 13th at PD is just flat out high on almost any measure. Drama, beauty, interest, exhilarating, etc. Tom would have been crazy to change much there...
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So, it's the same question I ask about my courses as a whole: am I always inspired to do my very best work when I'm right next to the ocean, and I'm just not as inspired when I'm inland? Or is the oceanfront just worth ten points on a 100-point scale?
I don't know. I've played a lot of shitty holes that happened to be near an ocean.
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John puts back of hand on forehead, a la Karnak The Magnificent: "New thread idea — Shitty Oceanside Holes."
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But there are lots and lots of holes that offer that same sort of strategy, aren't there? I don't believe this hole has much more nuance than a lot of those other holes.
This is an interesting observation and brought my mind back to the 2nd hole at Talking Stick North. Although that hole is a par-5, those of us who love it, love it for essentially the same reason. It is a straight shot down the left that gains advantage, with plenty of room out to the right that leaves a MUCH harder approach. This is simple and sound strategy, but these holes stick out for us perhaps because the elements are memorable. In the case of TSN, the barbed wire fence and OB beyond replace the Pacific Ocean, and an excellent set of bunkers short right on the testy little green replace your giant dune. Without those unique and memorable features, great holes become good holes.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/talkingsticknorth2-greenback_101415.jpg)
This is part of what I was hoping we would start to tease out in this thread. As much as I like making lists, the exercise is much more about contemplating why we think or feel certain holes are great. That's why I am truly interested not just to know which holes you think are better than the ones we chose, but why.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts fellas.
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Such is the power of the ocean to intimidate. The best angle into the elevated green is gained by taking a line as close to the cliff as possible. It is a real "hike up your knickers" moment in a round at PD. There is plenty of room to bail out right, but that position brings bunkers, and the enormous dune right of the green into play.
No beef with the pick here, but I don't agree with the method of play you've prescribed. The best angle of play is from the middle of the fairway or straight at the flag, not near the cliff (you can get away with a shot over there, but there really isn't any reward for being that far left). Part of the visual deception here is that off of the tee the middle of the fairway looks like its out to the right, and when you throw in people's tendency to take trouble out of play, they steer themselves even further right.
In the summer, you want to be taking the wind dead on, both off of the tee and on the approach (anything too far left will keep going left, same on the right). Occasionally you'll take the shorter hitters out to the right, but that pretty much turns it into a three shot hole for them with the layup being back to the left. And if you think about the angles, you're actually playing away from the dune if you're out on the right side.
In the winter, you want the runway off the back of the green in your line of play for anything that runs out too far. Too far to either side and you're looking at running into the back right bunker or running over the cliff edge off the back left.
I agree with Tom that there are more strategic holes on the course. The play here is pretty much always two shots straight at the flag, and hope you get a little luck if you get a bit of sidespin on the ball. But whether you are with or against the wind, those are not easy shots.
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John puts back of hand on forehead, a la Karnak The Magnificent: "New thread idea — Shitty Oceanside Holes."
And the envelope contains...
The 18th at Trump National LA.
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Tom wondered if there aren't a lot of holes that offer similar strategies. I wonder if, from the golfer's perspective, that's at all important, or if it's even a relevant question. The in-the-moment *experience* at PD is clearly exhilarating for all who play it; could it be experienced that way if 'strategic similarities' were actually a strength/weakness or postive/negative in gca? Tom's is indeed a legitimate question for a committed craftsman to ask, but I think it points to a fact that many craftsman/writers/artists come to discover, ie the better the work the more room there is for the audience to have its own experience of the work and so the less control that craftsman has on that multitude of personal/subjective reactions. It is only mediocre work that tries to anticipate/create a uniform experience and then manages to achieve it. A Big Mac, remarkably, tastes exactly the same in every corner of the world, and to every one who has ever satisfied their craving for one.
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The 14th on our Modern Great 18 is Friar's Head #14, a par-5.
The fourteenth subtly snakes, switches back, and rolls uphill to a green that is set in perhaps the coolest natural amphitheater on planet golf - a giant dune ridge. The green itself is large and its triangular shape allows for several testy pin positions that demand consideration all the way back to the tee.
And although it is entirely irrelevant to the strategy and play of the hole, FH #14 is capped off with GCA's coolest staircase for the triumphant players to proudly ascend and the defeated players to crawl up on hands and knees.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m14-friarshead1-jc-e1484618646327.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m14-friarshead3-jc-e1484618578929.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m14-friarshead2-jc-e1484618637850.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m14-friarshead4-jc-e1484618565854.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Lost Dunes, Talking Stick South, Kingsley Club, CommonGround, Streamsong Blue, Desert Forest, Sand Hills, Dormie Club, Kiawah Ocean, Streamsong Red, Old Macdonald
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Jay,
I'm going with the 14th from Radrick. FH too much sand for my liking...
The tee shot on 14 is fantastic. The player doesn't realize how much fairway to the right there it to bail out on. The drive kept closest to the bunker on the left will receive the kick plate forward. Taking a lot of yardage off this ball buster par 4! All photos are courtesy of the Gold Standard Joe Bausch.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/5532/fXuOHE.jpg)
The long approach has one looking at a long green front to back with it bending to the left at the end. Hitting a soft butter cut into the front will help hot long irons from sliding left into a beautiful Dye bunker. I've been on the grass island many times.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/8018/DIgNMP.jpg)
The green also will challenge ones lag putting skills... I'd like to see the mow line cut closer to the bunker
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/4884/JnBdeA.jpg)
Looking back at the topography and scale of the hole. The photo doesn't show the width the hole has.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/6631/UlXTn8.jpg)
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Solid nomination Ben. Thanks for chipping in. I loved that hole too.
Still waiting for additional nominations from other Dye fans. There have to be others...
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With Friar's Head, I think you have to take either the 14th or the 15th hole. I actually like the 15th hole better, but that's a matter of taste. Both are wonderful. I think the choice depends on what the other best 14th and 15th hole choices are. Now if you could find a great 1st hole, you could use Sand Hills #14 and go with Friar's Head #15. Finding great 1st holes is difficult.
Perhaps one of these days I will take the time to build an eclectic 18 that features a more gentle set of holes that reflect my current and evolving preferences.
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The 15th on our Modern Great 18 is Black Diamond Ranch Quarry #15, a par-4.
If memory serves, this is a Jon Cavalier nomination that both Jon and Peter have played. I have not played it yet, although I intend to at some point. Here is the description they shared:
"While elevated on the tee, the player observes the advances in modern technology which allows for shots to be in and through the quarry. Fazio’s brilliant imagination shines as you turn homeward bound while passing through the depths of the dynamite shaped rocks."
I fit this hole into the 15 slot in part because I think that it is a very cool looking representation of the "hand of man" style of architecture, and in part because it seemed like a course of Modern holes ought to have some representation from this camp of GCAs. Perhaps there is an even better hole from Fazio's portfolio - Shadow Creek, Wade Hampton, Gozzer Ranch, Butler? I'm interested to hear from those of you more familiar with his work.
For now, BDR #15 it is.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m15-bdquarry-jc-e1484708513717.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m15-bdquarry1-jc-e1484708523703.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m15-bdquarry2-jc-e1484708532335.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m15-bdquarry3-jc-e1484708542472.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Lost Dunes, The Rawls Course, WeKoPa Saguaro, Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, Friars Head, Streamsong Red, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald, Sand Hollow
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The 15th at Bandon Trails and at Bandon Dunes are worthy of Honorable Mention.
My pick would be the 15th at Keith Foster's Shepherds Crook, right in Jason's backyard. If we're making room for courses that moved a ton of earth, perhaps we should make room as well for the low green fee municipal courses that worked wonders on a small budget.
The hole is medium length par 4 that plays uphill to a skyline green, which seems to deflect all shots slightly offline. Playing to one of the highest points on the course, the winds that sweep across the open fields of the back nine can cause a bit of second guessing.
Shepherds Crook was built by Foster's crew after he had them tour the nearby Shoreacres. There are some old world contours built into the course, and the normally fast and firm conditions bring you back to the days before courses were over-watered. The 4th (a Biarritz inspired par 3), 5th (a long par 4 to a green without bunkers), 6th (a par 4 with a wonderful punchbowl green), 7th (a risk reward short par 4 with options to create angles of attack based on the pin placement on the wide green), 12th (a drive and pitch hole to a right to left slanted green), 13th (a thrilling downhill approach to a multi tiered green) and 16th (a devilish short par 3) being standouts.
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My pick would be the 15th at Keith Foster's Shepherds Crook, right in Jason's backyard. If we're making room for courses that moved a ton of earth, perhaps we should make room as well for the low green fee municipal courses that worked wonders on a small budget.
The hole is medium length par 4 that plays uphill to a skyline green, which seems to deflect all shots slightly offline. Playing to one of the highest points on the course, the winds that sweep across the open fields of the back nine can cause a bit of second guessing.
Love it Sven. Thanks for sharing this one. I have only played the front nine at SC and have been meaning to get back there. This was just the kick in the pants I needed. Going this season for sure.
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SC is most definitely a place I'd like to see.
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15 at Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry isn't even the best hole played around the quarry...
15 at World Woods Pine Barrens is a better nomination if you're looking in the Fazio portfolio.
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15 at Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry isn't even the best hole played around the quarry...
I was going to say the same thing. It's just the most photogenic hole because you are playing down into the quarry from an elevated tee. The par-5 14th is a much cooler hole, you have to hit two daring shots to go for it but it is within range for lots of golfers.
Interestingly, some of Fazio's best holes fall at #15. I think the 15th at Shadow Creek is the best hole on that course -- well, either 15 or 18, but I wouldn't choose a Fazio hole to finish my eclectic with.
Thirty years ago I was working on a piece for GOLF Magazine on the 100 Best Holes in America, and I happened to spend a day at Tom Fazio's office. I asked everyone in the office that day [Jan Beljan, Dennis Wise, Andy Banfield and Mike Strantz] to nominate holes they thought should be considered for the list, to get on their good side. But then Strantz asked me what I thought were the best FAZIO holes, and I was pretty well stumped ... the only one I could think of quickly was the 9th at Jupiter Hills. In general, I think his style does not lead to many awesome individual holes, because he rarely creates a hole that's difficult enough to require painful choices.
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Add the 15th at Wildhorse in Gothenburg to the list. One of a number of holes from the course that should be in the conversation.
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For what it's worth, I agree with both of Tom's points about the 14th at BDR Quarry being a superior hole and about Fazio's style not leading to many awesome holes (with the obvious caveat that I haven't played all of his courses).
To your point Sven, I haven't played Wildhorse, so I can't speak to that one (not sure if Jason or PK have). That said, I wasn't much impressed at all with World Woods - I thought it was really overrated, and did not "love" any of the holes there. That said, I've only played it once, so maybe I missed something.
There were several other holes that I liked for this spot, but unfortunately, most were from courses that we'd already selected from, thus triggering the one-hole-per-course exclusion.
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In general, I think his style does not lead to many awesome individual holes, because he rarely creates a hole that's difficult enough to require painful choices.
Tom,
I'd love for you to expound on this, either here or, perhaps better, in a new thread. Especially interesting is your choice of the words "difficult" and "painful"...neither terms usually involved in a fun game!
Thanks.
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Jason,
I think every hole at Friars Head could be put on your America's Great 18s. Such a nice variety of golf shots.
Every time I visit there I am amazed what Bill , Ben and Dave Axland pulled off on that piece of land.
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Jason,
I think every hole at Friars Head could be put on your America's Great 18s. Such a nice variety of golf shots.
Every time I visit there I am amazed what Bill , Ben and Dave Axland pulled off on that piece of land.
I totally agree, even if the club doesn't like being talked about. Great golf course, awesome routing, phenomenal diversity of holes with just a smidge of quirk.
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Thanks for all of the nominations fellas. Good stuff. I was wondering when World Woods and Wildhorse would enter the conversation. I have not played either, but I know that Peter is a big fan of WW.
Since we are making additional nominations, one that I forgot to add to my list was #15 at Diamond Springs, a funky little par-4 by Mike DeVries. Surprised that Ben didn't throw this one into the mix.
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Just catching up here. I have no problem with your choices for 10, 13 or 14. I haven't played any of those so can't really nitpick. However I am going to definitely call you out on 11, 12 and 15! ;D While 11 isn't bad, I don't think it's is even close to the best hole at Lost Dunes. I would have gone with the obvious of 14 or 15 there.
I would also put 12 in the bottom third of my favorite holes at Kingsley...especially with 13, 14, 15 and 16 coming up!
I also guess I can't be too critical of 15 at Black Diamond as I haven't played it but I know I can think of many better 15th holes. Crooked Stick is an awesome par 5 as is the par 5 at Harbor Town.
Here are my thoughts for alternates for holes 10 thru 15
10:
Kiawah Ocean Course
Wolf Run
11:
Blackwolf Run River!
Cuscowilla
Woodland Country Club - Indianapolis
Whistling Straits
12:
Chechessee Creek
Arcadia Bluffs
Old Memorial
French Lick Dye Course
13:
Kingsley Club
Butler National
Arcadia Bluffs
14:
Erin Hills
Butler National
Secession
Brickyard Crossing
15:
Lost Dunes
Kingsley Club
Crooked Stick
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Scottsdale
Harbor Town
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Good stuff JTarbs. Thanks for pitching in, especially adding some new courses into the mix. I have never heard of Woodland Country Club. Care to share the scoop?
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The 16th on our Modern Great 18 is Streamsong Red #16, a par-3.
Bold. That's the word. At a resort that is jam-packed with bold architecture in an otherworldly setting, this hole stands out. The lore is that the swale for this biarritz green was found, and refined into a new take on the template with blowout bunkers in front and a steep runoff left. If you like great, big contours (and we do), then this one-shotter is for you.
As an added bonus, the setting of Red's #16 alongside the Blue course's #7 makes for one of the coolest spots in golf. For me, it is one of those places that is so damn good that my geeky heart overflows into a joyful perma-grin.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m16-streamsongred-jc-e1484797289461.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m16-streamsongred1-jw.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m16-streamsongred3-jc-e1484797306236.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m16-streamsongred2-jw.jpg)
Our runners-up – Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Colorado Golf Club, Erin Hills, Kingsley Club, Desert Forest, Hudson National, Bayonne, Pacific Dunes
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Add the 15th at Wildhorse in Gothenburg to the list. One of a number of holes from the course that should be in the conversation.
Agreed - great hole on a great course.
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I also guess I can't be too critical of 15 at Black Diamond as I haven't played it but I know I can think of many better 15th holes. Crooked Stick is an awesome par 5 as is the par 5 at Harbor Town.
Here are my thoughts for alternates for holes 10 thru 15
15:
Lost Dunes
Kingsley Club
Crooked Stick
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Scottsdale
Harbor Town
Damn! I forgot about the 15th at Harbor Town.
Great suggestions, Josh (I haven't played Crooked Stick, so I can't opine on that one, but I really like all of your other choices for 15), and thanks for chiming in.
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Good stuff JTarbs. Thanks for pitching in, especially adding some new courses into the mix. I have never heard of Woodland Country Club. Care to share the scoop?
Woodland CC is here in Indianapolis, was an old Diddel course but they sold some land and had Dye basically re-do the entire thing. Pretty much a Dye except the routing for some of the holes I believe.
The 11th is a great short par 5. The fairway has a distinct shelf on the left side and balls played even slightly right roll into a bowl on the right side of the fairway.
That's great because it doglegs right around some trees, so you need to be on the left side to have a look into the green. Did I mention it was only about 490 or so downhill, so a good drive should leave around 200 yards into the green. It's a great hole that's pretty easy to have a look at eagle, it's also incredible easy to take an X.
Great suggestions, Josh (I haven't played Crooked Stick, so I can't opine on that one, but I really like all of your other choices for 15), and thanks for chiming in.
Take the green at #7 on Crystal Downs and put it at the end of a reachable par 5. :o
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The 17th on our Modern Great 18 is Whistling Straits #17, a par-3.
For visual beauty and drama, it is tough to beat the set of par-3s at Whistling Straits, and the 17th is our favorite. It plays south along the lake exposing it to the oft-stiff wind. Multiple tee boxes allow for play from 165 yards, all the way back to 249 yards. Named "Pinched Nerve", the seventeenth is capable of delivering acute pain to those whose tee shots are uncommitted.
The green is contoured just enough that lag putting can be a real adventure. After surviving the Straits to this point, a player who musters a par on this stout three-par feels victorious. Our Modern course would not have felt complete without a hole from Pete Dye, and for us, this was a worthy choice.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m17-whistlingstraights2-jc-e1484954173354.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m17-whistlingstraights-jw.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m17-whistlingstraights-jc-e1484954185485.jpg)
Our runners-up – Friars Head, Sand Valley, Boston Golf Club, Sand Hills, Forest Dunes, Erin Hills, TPC Sawgrass, Bayonne, Ballyhack
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The closer for our Modern Great 18 is Stonewall CC Old #18, a par-4.
This one is a Jon Cavalier pick on a course that he enjoys very much. I have not played it before, so I will just share his comments:
"Credit Tom Doak and crew for changing Tom Fazio’s original routing for this hole and creating one of the best finishers in golf. The pretty tee shot plays to a wide but well defended fairway, but this hole is all about the greensite. The green is fronted by deep bunkers but open to a ground shot from the left, and sitting mere feet from the old farmhouse and barn."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m18-stonewall2-jc-e1485040706425.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m18-stonewall1-jc-e1485040682231.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m18-stonewall3-jc-e1485040715142.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m18-stonewall-jc-e1485040694884.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/m18-stonewall4-jc-e1485040724576.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Sand Hills, WeKoPa Saguaro, Black Forest, Sand Valley, Sebonack, Shadow Creek, Bayonne, Harbour Town, Old Macdonald
I am compiling all nominations for all Modern holes and will post that pool shortly.
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I have never played Stonewall, but having seen it many times in photos I always thought it looked like the perfect 18th hole.
Since no one said anything about the 17th I guess I will chime-in. The 17th at WS has to be considered one of the great long par 3's of the world. Such a cool and creative hole built from nothing.
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The 17th holes at Pac, Bandon and Trails are world class, yet not one makes the honorable mentions list.
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Alrighty, compilation of all mentioned holes here and on social media is below (our original runners-up have *). Quite the pool of winner, methinks.
A challenge and a question for you:
Challenge - Using the holes below (and any others you have played), and adhering to our one-hole-per-course rule, create a course that is better than ours. If you're really feeling saucy, puff out your chest and tell us why it is better.
Question - Is it possible to create a course that is actually better to play than the best Moderns? Returning for a moment to Jim Urbina's earlier post, would any course that we could conceive be more enjoyable to play than Sand Hills, Friar's Head, or Pacific Dunes? Or would our Great 18s most likely fall prey to the tendency to pick too many memorable (and therefore difficult) holes?
Interested to get your perspectives.
#1 - Sand Hills
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyneal, Bayside, Boston Golf Club*, Dunes Club, French Creek, Kingsley, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Sweetens Cove, Tobacco Road, Wolf Run
#2 - Sebonack
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyhack, Ballyneal, Bandon Preserve, Boston GC, Desert Forest, Dismal Red, Erin Hills*, French Creek, Harbour Town, Hidden Creek, Honors Course, Kingsley Club*, Kinloch, Lost Dunes*, Old MacDonald*, Old Sandwich, Pacific Dunes, Radrick Farms, Rock Creek, Rustic Canyon, Sand Valley*, Snake River Sporting Club, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Stone Eagle, Talking Stick North*, Wolf Point
#3 - Bandon Trails
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal*, Black Forest*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, CommonGround*, Erin Hills*, Kiawah Ocean, Mauna Kea, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Valley*, Spyglass Hill*, Wade Hampton*
#4 - Bandon Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Dismal River Red, Dismal River White, Dunes Club*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Hills*, Spyglass Hill*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Sweetens Cove, World Woods Pine Barrens
#5 - Boston Golf Club
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs, Bandon Dunes*, Blackwolf Run River, Cuscowilla, Old Sandwich*, Streamsong Blue*, Sweetens Cove*
#6 - Marquette Greywalls
Honorable Mentions - Apache Stronghold*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, French Creek, Kinloch, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Pikewood National*, Streamsong Blue*, The Golf Club, Wade Hampton*, Whistling Straits*
#7 - Old Macdonald
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Desert Forest*, Dunes Club*, Harbor Shores*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hills, Sand Valley*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*
#8 - Ballyneal
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*
#9 - Erin Hills
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Trails, Blackstone, Boston GC, Chambers Bay, Crooked Stick*, Friars Head*, French Creek*, Honors Course*, Monterey Peninsula Dunes, Old Macdonald*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Stone Eagle
#10 - Chambers Bay
Honorable Mentions - Ballyhack*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, Harbor Shores*, Kiawah Ocean, Monterey Peninsula Shore, Pacific Dunes*, Rock Creek Cattle, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Wolf Run
#11 - Lost Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bayonne*, Blackwolf River Run, Boston Golf Club*, Cuscowilla, Desert Forest*, Monterey Peninsula, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hollow*, Sebonack*, Whistling Straits, Woodlands CC
#12 - Kingsley Club
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal, Bandon Dunes*, Black Forest*, Chechessee Creek, Erin Hills*, French Lick Dye, Honors Course*, Old Memorial, Pacific Dunes*, Royal Isabella, Talking Stick North*, The Rawls Course*, Wolf Creek*
#13 - Pacific Dunes
Honorable Mentions - Arcadia Bluffs, Atlanta CC, Butler National, Honors Course, Kingsley Club*, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hollow*, Streamsong Blue*, Wade Hampton*, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Whistling Straits*
#14 - Friar’s Head
Honorable Mentions - Black Diamond Ranch, Brickyard Crossing, Butler National, Chambers Bay, CommonGround*, Desert Forest*, Dormie Club*, Erin Hills, Kiawah Ocean*, Kingsley Club*, Lost Dunes*, Old Macdonald*, Radrick Farms, Sand Hills*, Secession, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Talking Stick South*
#15 - Black Diamond Ranch
Honorable Mentions - Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Chambers Bay*, Crooked Stick, Diamond Springs, Erin Hills*, Friars Head*, Harbor Town, Kingsley Club, Lost Dunes*, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hollow*, Shadow Creek, Shepherds Crook, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, The Rawls Course*, TPC Scottsdale, WeKoPa Saguaro*, Wildhorse, World Woods Pine Barrens
#16 - Streamsong Red
Honorable Mentions - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Bayonne*, Colorado Golf Club*, Desert Forest*, Erin Hills*, Hudson National*, Kingsley Club*, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Poipu Bay, Sand Hills*
#17 - Whistling Straits
Honorable Mentions - Ballyhack*, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Bayonne*, Boston Golf Club*, Dormie Club, Erin Hills*, Forest Dunes*, Friar’s Head*, Manele, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills*, Sand Valley*, TPC Sawgrass*
#18 - Stonewall CC Old
Honorable Mentions - Bayonne*, Black Forest*, Harbour Town*, Kapalua Plantation, Old Macdonald*, Sand Hills*, Sand Valley*, Sebonack*, Shadow Creek*, WeKoPa Saguaro*
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The 17th holes at Pac, Bandon and Trails are world class, yet not one makes the honorable mentions list.
All great holes with a decided bias for minimalist designs, particularly with reflect to the Bandon courses. At least one of the four courses is mentioned as a winner or runner up for EVERY HOLE 1-18.
Now, Bandon is my favorite place I've played and I think there is only one stupid hole on the property, but this list is a little too Bandoncentric. Having said that, my buddy Sven chimes in by noting that 17 at Trails and Pac are world class but didn't get an honorable mention. Sorry, President Trump, they're both honorable mentions.
😆
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Terry:
They are now.
I might beg to differ on the Bandon focus. The list doesn't have Trails #2, Pac #2, Trails #4, Trails #5, Old Mac #5, Trails #7, Pac #7, Pac #8, Trails #11, Bandon #11, Pac #11, Trails #13, Pac #14 or Pac #18, which are all worthy of at least being included in the conversation.
Sven
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Eleven at Lost Dunes is one of my personal favorites of holes that we've built. I just loved the green setting and the half-bowl-within-a-bowl top right hole location. Hitting a long approach over that deep bunker and using the hill at the back to contain it on the upper level is a real thrill.
During the construction project, that deep bunker acquired a name, which I don't believe is well known. After one of my visits, the client Jeff Shearer was giving me a ride back to Chicago to go to the airport, and I mentioned to him that my wife and I had decided to divorce, so I said, "If I dig any really deep bunkers, maybe that's why." We had always planned to make the bunker on #11 deep, but Jeff didn't know that, and when he went back out on his next visit and saw the bunker, he asked my lead associate Tom Mead what my wife's name was?
Tom, the 11th hole at Lost Dunes is an incredible hole. I've played the course two times and on both occasions (since there wasn't anyone behind us) once we got done with the 11th hole we went back and played it again. It is framed so well and the second shot is so much fun. I am curious about something. I think I read that when Donald Ross was designing Oakland Hills, it was the 11th hole that he plotted first and then designed the rest of the course around that. I'd like to know if you've done anything like that with your designs. Have you ever found a piece of land where in one area you envisioned a spectacular hole and then designed the rest of the course around that? Maybe that happens more than I would think, but would be interested in getting your take.
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Doesn't Pine Valley have close to 18 memorable and interesting holes? It is difficult but does it really "suffer" because of that?
As for Jim Urbina's thoughts on Friar's Head (I know they don't like the course talked about) is the genius of the place the totality rather than the individual parts (holes) as there are only four nominees in your list? Ballyneal which I think may be "rated" lower has eight?
Bias?
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From viewing the photos all these holes would seem to have interesting, challenging, thought provoking greensites. Guess there's a message there.
atb
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Sven--
While I agree with you that there are many holes from the property that could be representations of their respective number, like Terry said-- a hole was represented as a winner or a runner up on every hole. I believe that says quite a bit.
My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.
I think it's one of the better C&C holes out there.
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My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.
+1, couldn't agree more. #17 at Dormie is world class IMO. Probably the best par 5 i've played since 3rd at UofM has tree issues due to safety concerns.
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My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.
Wasn't this at least partially your list?
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I am curious about something. I think I read that when Donald Ross was designing Oakland Hills, it was the 11th hole that he plotted first and then designed the rest of the course around that. I'd like to know if you've done anything like that with your designs. Have you ever found a piece of land where in one area you envisioned a spectacular hole and then designed the rest of the course around that? Maybe that happens more than I would think, but would be interested in getting your take.
Scott:
I am starting to work on a book about routing, but it may take a while.
I'm skeptical of the Ross story, although it is often the case that a particular hole stands out from early in the routing process and is central to every subsequent iteration.
There are four holes at Pacific Dunes that were part of my first routing attempt [before I'd walked the property]: the 6th, 10th [though it was a short par-4 to the same green site], 11th, and 16th. You could say that the routing revolved around the 16th and its neighbors in that little bowl of dunes, and you wouldn't be entirely wrong, but I didn't think of it in those terms. I just knew that the bowl was central to the routing, and the 16th, jammed up against one side of the bowl, was a keeper.
On the other hand, at Rock Creek in Montana, we had thousands of acres to choose from and it was hard to know where to begin. The very first hole I "saw" on the topo maps was the par-5 10th, and when we went out to see it we thought it was a winner ... so it is true that the rest of the course evolved from there.
Sometimes we have to give up the hole we fell in love with in order to make the rest of the routing work out, but if we are really attached to a hole, we are usually pretty resourceful in finding a way to keep it -- even if some of the surrounding holes are compromised as a result.
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My quarrel was with 17. I think the 17th at Dormie is akin to the 7th at Pine Valley. I don't understand why the 17th isn't discussed more as a great hole in modern day architecture. From tee to green, each shot is worth high value for a birdie to be earned given the hole is a touch under 500. If you hit it in the fairway, you're faced with a tough decision whether to take on the carry or not.
After playing Dormie for the first time last week, I concur with the love for the 17th. In fact, every hole in the stretch from 14-18 was a winner for me. All very cool visually, and all of the risk-reward sort that make birdies and doubles real possibilities. The 17th has been added to the HMs.
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The course with the most honorable mentions is... not Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal...
... it's Old Mac. If I counted right, Old Mac got 13 hm's, plus one hole among the great 18s. Pacific Dunes looks like it might be second, with 8 hm's and one great 18. I think Sand Hills has one great 18 and 6 hm's, i.e. half as many honorable mentions as Old Mac.
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The course with the most honorable mentions is... not Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal...
... it's Old Mac. If I counted right, Old Mac got 13 hm's, plus one hole among the great 18s. Pacific Dunes looks like it might be second, with 8 hm's and one great 18. I think Sand Hills has one great 18 and 6 hm's, i.e. half as many honorable mentions as Old Mac.
I've been working on an eclectic of my own courses, in response to Jason's call for other attempts.
In my own quick version, Old Macdonald had seven candidates for the eclectic: 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11 and 16. I'm guessing it got more support in Jason's poll because it's the only modern course with all of the template holes that everyone here is conditioned to respond to.
Numbers of candidate holes from my other courses [in my own internal poll of one]:
9: Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle Dunes and Tara Iti
8: Cape Kidnappers, Dismal River and St. Andrews Beach
7: Ballyneal, Old Macdonald and Streamsong
I'm surprised that Ballyneal [and Rock Creek, with only six holes] didn't finish quite as high, but sometimes it's just the case that certain holes dominate the conversation because they are clear standouts. Old Macdonald is the opposite; there is no agreement on one hole being the best.
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16: I don't like the 16th at Streamsong Red at all. I just don't think it works. It's visually spectacular but I don't think it plays great. I'll be honest though, I think the biarritz is the dumbest of all the template style holes in that it doesn't work for modern golf.
My nominations:
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Sawgrass
RiverMont
Scottsdale National
Whistling Straights
17: I like the 17th at Whistling Straits a lot. I'm just not sure I'd call it the best hole there. I think I like a few of the par 4s better, and I know I like the 12th better as a par 3.
My nominations:
TPC Scottsdale
TPC Sawgrass
Streamsong Blue
18: Looks like a good hole. I think we all know John loves it ;D I haven't played it so can't comment. When I compile my course, mine will be Harbour Town
My nominations:
Harbour Town
TPC Sawgrass
I'm going to start compliling mine, not sure I have played enough moderns to be really good but I think I can put together an interesting list.
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Sven- partially, yes. Jason asked of a list of my favorites. pretty sure i included a hole from the bandon property myself, with my additional favorite moderns. Although when it came down to final selection time, I wasn't making the final decision. I think Jason was selecting holes based on flow and so on and so forth. Regardless, in the dead of winter i loved the practice.
I'd love to hear what your favorite hole, representing that number is from the bandon property. Interesting enough, a few years ago i tried that and i believe Trails/OM led the way while if you asked me my preferences for courses, I'd probably say Pacific-Trails-OM. Funny how that worked out.
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Peter:
If you search the back pages there are a number of threads that do exactly what you described. You'll get more than my opinion on it (which probably has changed a bit since then) if you find them.
I will note that the 8th at Pacific is one of my favorite holes to be a caddie for on the resort. Starting with the sneak peak at the day's pin from the 7th tee, you start thinking about how you're going to try to play it. Its a hole that can change dramatically depending on the wind direction, not only off of the tee but also on the type and angle of approach shot. The back portion of the green is a great bail out option, and a ton of fun when the pin is set there.
One of the reasons it gets overlooked is that most people's experiences with the hole are fairly one dimensional, limited to one or two tries into the same wind. There was a thread a little while back that touched on the 11th at Bandon in the same light. To really appreciate the design here, you need to experience a variety of the pin locations with both the wind coming at you and at your back, and even with no wind (which does happen on occasion). As an aside, this is part of the inherent flaw in these types of conversations. No one has played all of the great modern holes in all of the conditions that highlight their brilliance. And because of this the default is to rely on the wow factor, which is why we remember holes like the 4th and 13th more than we do the 8th.
I've described it as the hole that does the most with the least. Its a hole you have to think your way through on every shot, and even though it looks pretty benign compared to the rest of the eye candy out there, it can sneak up on you pretty quickly.
Sven
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Sven,
You have the gift of caddying there all year. That alters the perspective. Probably skews it. But what you describe is a combination of design, routing and variable wind and weather. That's the very root of golf but most of us retail guys experience it on only an episodic basis.
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Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos. Actually, build *three* replica courses, one for the best 18 and two more based on the honourable mentions. Move as much dirt as necessary to get it done. Put all three courses at the same resort --the finest, truly the best golfing complex the world has ever known! Would anyone mind that? Would anyone have any issues with the *maximalist* approach and the costs involved if it resulted in not one or ten or even 18 signature holes, but 54 of them?!
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Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos.
Of those that are mine, I think it will be hardest to replicate the 13th at Pacific Dunes, unless you've got a pretty good oceanfront site in mind for this project. And if you do, I'd rather try to build something new on it! ;)
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Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos.
Of those that are mine, I think it will be hardest to replicate the 13th at Pacific Dunes, unless you've got a pretty good oceanfront site in mind for this project. And if you do, I'd rather try to build something new on it! ;)
In a word its inimitable, in the best possible meaning of the word.
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Jason,
Thanks for putting this thread together. I enjoyed it very much.
Off the top of my head, the first choices for holes 16-18 would be:
16 - Rock Creek Cattle Company
17 - Tara Iti
18 - Ballyneal
All Tom Doak courses, but I have to go with what I know.
I've always loved Ballyneal's 18th hole. The correct way to play the hole is to drive the ball down the left side if the pin is on the left third of the green. Otherwise, play the center or right side if the wide fairway. I consider the 18th green to have an ideal level of challenge and variety, ranging from easier hole locations with gentle contours on the left and center of the green, to the more difficult pins on the right and rear of the green. You can run the ball into the right side of the green, whereas the approach shot must be flown onto the left or center of the green. Finally, it is a hole where par usually requires three or four good shots, but a score of double bogey or worse is unlikely, unless the player duck hooks his/her tee shot into the native left of the golf course. I don't like the idea of a brutal, "round wrecking" last hole, leaving the player demoralized. It appears that Stonewall's 18th hole is similarly a tough par, but manageable bogey hole.
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Thanks for sharing your nominations and insights, fellas. Really enjoying catching up on the discussion, and still looking forward to seeing full Modern courses that the enterprising among you create.
Classic Great 18 will be starting soonly...
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/great18classiclogos-e1485398814755.jpg)
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It's weird doing an eclectic of my own work and not including the overseas courses -- we've built a lot of holes in Australia and New Zealand that would find a good home on an all-world eclectic -- but I've tried to do one for my own U.S. courses, just because it illustrates how different my own favorite holes are from those chosen by Jason's group. Here goes:
1st at Old Macdonald [r-up: Ballyneal]
2nd at Stone Eagle [r-up: Sebonack and Pacific Dunes]
3rd at The Rawls Course [r-up: Stonewall North]
4th at Medinah #1 [r-up: Tumble Creek, Streamsong, The Loop Black]
5th at Streamsong Blue [r-up: Rock Creek]
6th at Pacific Dunes [r-up: Stonewall Old, Old Macdonald]
7th at CommonGround [r-up: Rock Creek, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald]
8th at Aetna Springs [r-up: Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes]
9th at Tumble Creek [r-up: Stonewall North]
10th at Rock Creek [r-up: Black Forest]
11th at Sebonack [r-up: Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, Pacific Dunes]
12th at The Loop Black [r-up: Ballyneal, The Loop Red, Quail Crossing]
13th at Lost Dunes [r-up: Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Black Forest]
14th at Dismal River [r-up: The Loop Black]
15th at Stonewall North [r-up: Rock Creek, Lost Dunes]
16th at Ballyneal [r-up: Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, CommonGround]
17th at The Loop Red [r-up: Streamsong, Dismal River, Ballyneal]
18th at Stonewall Old [r-up: Stone Eagle, Dismal River, Sebonack]
I had to leave out my favorite holes at Tumble Creek (4th), Ballyneal (7th), and Lost Dunes (11th) to make them all fit together, but I think this would make a pretty good overall course, and wouldn't be a complete backbreaker. I noticed that the one type of hole I don't have a good representative for is a 220+ yard par 3. The best ones I've done are overseas, but there aren't that many I'm really fond of. Maybe the 5th or 7th on the Mulligan course will make it next time I do this list.
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It's weird doing an eclectic of my own work and not including the overseas courses -- we've built a lot of holes in Australia and New Zealand that would find a good home on an all-world eclectic -- but I've tried to do one for my own U.S. courses, just because it illustrates how different my own favorite holes are from those chosen by Jason's group. Here goes:
1st at Old Macdonald [r-up: Ballyneal]
2nd at Stone Eagle [r-up: Sebonack and Pacific Dunes]
3rd at The Rawls Course [r-up: Stonewall North]
4th at Medinah #1 [r-up: Tumble Creek, Streamsong, The Loop Black]
5th at Streamsong Blue [r-up: Rock Creek]
6th at Pacific Dunes [r-up: Stonewall Old, Old Macdonald]
7th at CommonGround [r-up: Rock Creek, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald]
8th at Aetna Springs [r-up: Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes]
9th at Tumble Creek [r-up: Stonewall North]
10th at Rock Creek [r-up: Black Forest]
11th at Sebonack [r-up: Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, Pacific Dunes]
12th at The Loop Black [r-up: Ballyneal, The Loop Red, Quail Crossing]
13th at Lost Dunes [r-up: Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Black Forest]
14th at Dismal River [r-up: The Loop Black]
15th at Stonewall North [r-up: Rock Creek, Lost Dunes]
16th at Ballyneal [r-up: Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, CommonGround]
17th at The Loop Red [r-up: Streamsong, Dismal River, Ballyneal]
18th at Stonewall Old [r-up: Stone Eagle, Dismal River, Sebonack]
I had to leave out my favorite holes at Tumble Creek (4th), Ballyneal (7th), and Lost Dunes (11th) to make them all fit together, but I think this would make a pretty good overall course, and wouldn't be a complete backbreaker. I noticed that the one type of hole I don't have a good representative for is a 220+ yard par 3. The best ones I've done are overseas, but there aren't that many I'm really fond of. Maybe the 5th or 7th on the Mulligan course will make it next time I do this list.
This is a course I'd most definitely play.
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Thanks for sharing your nominations and insights, fellas. Really enjoying catching up on the discussion, and still looking forward to seeing full Modern courses that the enterprising among you create.
Classic Great 18 will be starting soonly...
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/90/90c12df3645aee61e4a548013189b230fa8a7cf062a939fb05d74925addbbe44.jpg)
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Very cool, Tom. Thank you for taking the time to put that together. Still very much interested in other submissions, as well as arguments as to why they blow our original Modern 18 out of the water.
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Never a good idea to blow off Judge Smails. He's sentenced boys younger than me to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it, felt he owed it to them.
Let's do this.
The 1st on our Classic Great 18 is National Golf Links of America #1, a par-4.
This is a hole that Jon loves, and I concur. Jon's comment from our original post on my blog:
"Step on to the first tee box at National and feast your eyes: to your left, the 18th green and Peconic Bay; straight ahead, the beautiful clubhouse and your target fairway; slightly to your right, the iconic windmill. Macdonald’s Valley template isn’t often seen in true form any longer, but this gem of a hole, with its intricate bunkering and its wild, undulating green sets a perfect tone for a round on one of the best courses in all of golf."
Back to our previous discussion about what makes a great opener. It immediately engages the mind with a tee shot to an angled fairway, but doesn't require a bomb with the first swing. It requires precision with the approach, but that approach is made with a short club. It provides challenge on and around the green, but recovery is possible for the player who possesses a savvy short game.
There may be other holes at NGLA that we love more than the first, but there is no classic #1 that we love more than this hole.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c1-ngla1-jc-e1485482472645.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c1-ngla-jc-e1485482460733.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c1-ngla3-jc-e1485482491903.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c1-ngla2-jc-e1485482481686.jpeg)
Our runners-up – Crystal Downs, Whitinsville, Oakmont, Inverness, Mountain Lake, Skokie CC
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You can't go wrong with any hole at NGLA, so no arguments from me.
My personal favorite first hole (in the US) is Plainfield. It's a somewhat demanding par 4 with a large, phenomenal green.
I know Jon has played Plainfield, but I don't think he's as enamored with it as I am.
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My favorite opening hole discovery of the past few years is the very short par-5 1st at Hooper, New Hampshire.
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Old White #1. Not best hole on course but terrific opening hole. Picture does not even do full justice--tee elevated well above fairway.
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I birdied that little bastard. If the putt hadn't hit the hole, I'd've had a 6 footer for par.
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You can't go wrong with any hole at NGLA, so no arguments from me.
My personal favorite first hole (in the US) is Plainfield. It's a somewhat demanding par 4 with a large, phenomenal green.
I know Jon has played Plainfield, but I don't think he's as enamored with it as I am.
Good choice Brian. I like the first hole at Plainfield, but not as much as the 4th hole and 17th hole. The 4th is an incredibly strategic short par 4. A lot of people don't like the 17th hole but I absolutely love it.
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The 2nd on our Classic Great 18 is Old Elm Club #2, a par-4.
A spirited case for this hole was made by Peter, and I sided with him because my OE homerism has been greatly enhanced by the ongoing changes spearheaded by Drew Rogers, Dave Zinkand, Curtis James, and Kevin Marion. Peter's comments:
"Quite simply, the 2nd at Old Elm is timeless architectural design. While short in length, the necessity of accuracy looms large. As technology has rendered helpless many holes designed in the golden age, the 2nd cannot be overpowered merely by 300 yard pops. The knoll green is small and plays smaller, exacting a price on even near misses – the pressure of the approach puts the golfer in a stressful position back in the fairway."
When I was a kid, this hole was one dimensional. The left side was lined with trees, there was a tree, bunker, and rough left of the green, and the conditions were somewhat lush. A player who hit a drive down the middle could try to get their approach pin high. Missing the center line meant hedging toward the front left, which was a relatively easy up and down, even from the bunker. Now, with the trees gone, the conditions fast and firm, and the crowned green surrounded by closely mown runoffs, the player has more choices to position for the approach, but much less margin for error on that approach. This hole was never what I would call easy, but now it is terrifying.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c2-oldelm-jc-e1485648875446.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c2-oldelm3-pk-e1485648865351.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c2-oldelm3-jc-e1485648856937.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c2-oldelm1-jc-e1485648836275.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c2-oldelm2-jw-e1485648847597.jpg)
Our runners-up – Myopia, Garden City, Shoreacres, Somerset Hills, Pine Valley, Old Town Club
In fairness to Jon and his strong case for Tilly's Redan at Somerset Hills, here a few bonus photos.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/somersethills2-tee-jc-e1485648973554.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/somersethills2-teezoom-jc-e1485648965921.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/somersethills2-short-jc-e1485648956731.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/somersethills2-greenback-jc-e1485648949793.jpeg)
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Jason/Peter,
Nice selection, the hole has a lot of width to it off the tee and the short iron approach is treacherous. I hate the irrigation pond on the right, which i deduct a whole Doak point for OE. I'd go with the 2nd at Scioto. The tee shot is exciting and the bunkers on the right just fit perfectly on the side hill. The tee shot calls for a fade to reduce the right to left fairway slope. The green may have been raised by DW, but the strategic value in the tee shot makes up for it.
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It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.
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I can't comment on old elm, but it must be a helluva hole to beat out Somerset Hills.
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It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.
Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?
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It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.
Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?
Heck, just in the same suburb, 2 at the renovated Bob O'Link is a better hole. 2 at Shoreacres is way more interesting and unique. 2 at Chicago Golf has potential peril in both the tee shot and the approach. Then you have to putt that green! On the other side of town 2 at OFCC South is much more naturally appealing and more of a challenge. 2 at Old Elm has a terrific green, with the great runoffs that are mentioned but it's a second shot hole. The tee shot is mundane and the retention pond on the right detracts from the visual appeal. I love what Drew and Dave et al have done at Old Elm but there are better holes out there than 2.
As for my personal favorite I am not really sure as I don't have such a great hole by hole memory like you guys but to play Sven for a minute the second hole at all four courses are superior to OE. 2 at Cypress comes to mind, same with Friar's Head,
Sorry to quibble but this just seems like a forced selection, to get OE some comparison to the other, vastly superior courses that are in your sample.
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Shoreacres and Piping Rock, I don't understand as candidates for the 2nd hole, and I've worked on both.
The 2nd at Somerset Hills is a fine hole, but it's a Redan, and [I sure hope] you are only going to have one of those at most in your 18-hole course ... and there are certainly better Redans in America, although you've given up on the best one [NGLA] already.
I guess you wanted to pick a different hole at Pine Valley, because #2 at PV is way better than any of these. I usually go with their 2nd hole for an eclectic; the 13th is my favorite hole at Pine Valley, but it always loses out to the 13th at Augusta in these exercises.
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Jason/Peter,
Nice selection, the hole has a lot of width to it off the tee and the short iron approach is treacherous. I hate the irrigation pond on the right, which i deduct a whole Doak point for OE. I'd go with the 2nd at Scioto. The tee shot is exciting and the bunkers on the right just fit perfectly on the side hill. The tee shot calls for a fade to reduce the right to left fairway slope. The green may have been raised by DW, but the strategic value in the tee shot makes up for it.
Opps, I will select the 2nd at Franklin hills. Tee shot is strategic with a centerline bunker and an awesome green.
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Jason - thanks for all this; I live my golfing life vicariously, through photos and the experiences of posters like you.
Just to take a step back, re the No 1 hole. While if I had to choose there'd probably be a few courses I'd play first, before NGLA, I am continually startled and amazed by it. The first hole is a great example: the strange feeling/sense it gives me -- i.e. that there is so much going on and yet not much going on at all; that is manifests simplicity and complexity at one and the same time, and in equal measures -- is so unique.
The only great course I've played is Crystal Downs, and I liked the 1st there very much, for many reasons. But while that golf hole says "Welcome, and good luck" the first at NGLA seems to say "Welcome, glad you could make it, hope you had a good night's sleep, how are you feeling this morning, how's the wife and kids, well, you're away, if you're ready to go and have everything you need, take some time though first and pick your line, you may want to check with the caddie, Jim's one of the best..."
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Fantastic Peter. Absolutely agree with your assessment and love the way you put it.
Thanks for the other nominations gents. Tom, you are right about Piping Rock #2. That hole was apparently forgettable enough for me to mentally skip right over it and think that the Redan 3rd was #2 (fixed in my previous post).
None of us have played Augusta or Bob'O'Link, so you won't see any selections from those courses. Jon played Cypress after we picked our 18. We might make a late substitution for one CPC hole, but it is not the 2nd. I played Philadelphia Cricket Club after we made our selections, so I would also add PCC #2 to my list of Runners-up.
More to come...
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It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.
Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?
Heck, just in the same suburb, 2 at the renovated Bob O'Link is a better hole. 2 at Shoreacres is way more interesting and unique. 2 at Chicago Golf has potential peril in both the tee shot and the approach. Then you have to putt that green! On the other side of town 2 at OFCC South is much more naturally appealing and more of a challenge. 2 at Old Elm has a terrific green, with the great runoffs that are mentioned but it's a second shot hole. The tee shot is mundane and the retention pond on the right detracts from the visual appeal. I love what Drew and Dave et al have done at Old Elm but there are better holes out there than 2.
As for my personal favorite I am not really sure as I don't have such a great hole by hole memory like you guys but to play Sven for a minute the second hole at all four courses are superior to OE. 2 at Cypress comes to mind, same with Friar's Head,
Sorry to quibble but this just seems like a forced selection, to get OE some comparison to the other, vastly superior courses that are in your sample.
I am sure that it is just a failure of my ability to use the search function on this website, but I can't seem to find a "Great 18" or "Eclectic 18" of Chicago courses. Between the Hon. T. Lavin's comments above and the number of Chicago folks hanging out in these parts, I imagine we could have a pretty spirited debate about the best 18 holes in Chicago using Jason's rules. Since I assume this has been covered, can anyone that is better at searching than me point me to that posting. If it doesn't yet exist, perhaps we can start that discussion in a separate thread.
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I am sure that it is just a failure of my ability to use the search function on this website, but I can't seem to find a "Great 18" or "Eclectic 18" of Chicago courses. Between the Hon. T. Lavin's comments above and the number of Chicago folks hanging out in these parts, I imagine we could have a pretty spirited debate about the best 18 holes in Chicago using Jason's rules. Since I assume this has been covered, can anyone that is better at searching than me point me to that posting. If it doesn't yet exist, perhaps we can start that discussion in a separate thread.
Looking through our selections, we have at least one Chicagoland hole nominated for every number except #8 and #18. By the time I have compiled all of the additional nominations from the peanut gallery, I suspect that we will have every hole covered with multiple selections. Might have all numbers covered for Philly too, especially if that contingent starts chiming in.
It would be fun if this thread lived on after Peter, Jon and I have shared our selections to continue crowdsourcing sub-courses by city, state, architect, whatever direction you want to take it. That was one of the reasons why I gave it the title America's Great 18s (as opposed to America's Best 18 or America's Greatest 18). Happy to manage it for as long as it holds everyone's interest.
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It's a lot of work by you guys and my comments are just my personal opinions and all collegially intended.
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If the 2nd at Pine Valley still looked like this there wouldn't be a debate.....
(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=d471b68fba&view=fimg&th=159ec573951e43c3&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&attbid=ANGjdJ_yTKDBzRtjDhTR59j2bLugf6bGuK5Jeb_H4EGjzxGVo1NyfNPy2hiOAEFNaTiOl7QDqi7HFX3FlUbdJsXqzI0IpMI2pFU4EWZrW08J2racfBpqsOjv9OPTZbU&ats=1485783392155&rm=159ec573951e43c3&zw&sz=w1280-h913)
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It's a lot of work by you guys and my comments are just my personal opinions and all collegially intended.
All taken as such sir - no worries. I appreciate you sharing your nominations, especially #2 at Shoreacres. That's my favorite hole on the front nine. Keep 'em coming.
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The 3rd on our Classic Great 18 is Oakmont #3, a par-4.
Given that we have started our course with three straight four pars under 400 yards, I guess that we have made a statement about our perspective on the link between length-based difficulty and greatness. Not an intentional statement, but there it is.
With regard to Oakmont's third, it is iconic because of the church pews, and they are really neat. But they are not what I think makes this hole great. The way that the hole lays upon the hillside is the first part of its greatness. The slope of the hill from high right to low left is subtly disorienting. It looks cool, but it does not look quite right, and that creates an awkwardness that must be overcome to hit a good drive.
The blind approach to the top of the hill makes the kind of demand that we love. And the green itself, which has a false front AND runs away from back to front is no lay down to hit and hold. Approaches that come up short leave a tricky recovery, but it is hard to muster up the guts to err on the side of going long when looking up the hill.
Once on the green, the third is gentle by comparison to others at Oakmont which means that the player who rises to the tee-to-green challenge is rewarded with a legit opportunity to hole a putt.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c3-oakmont-jc-e1485735825560.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c3-oakmont1-jc-e1485735800842.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c3-oakmontcc2-jw-e1485735814310.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Olympia Fields CC North, LACC North, Kittansett, Wannamoisett, Camargo, Chicago GC, NGLA, The Country Club, Pine Valley, Pasatiempo, Piping Rock
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The 4th on our Classic Great 18 is Fishers Island Club #4, a par-4.
I have not played FI, but Peter and Jon have and I know that this Alps/Punchbowl combo hole is an all-time favorite of Jon's. His comments:
"If any one hole captures the greatness of Fishers Island, it’s this one. Before teeing off, players note the day’s pin position on a pegboard. Options abound off the tee, and players hit anything from driver to mid-iron, depending on their chosen line and the wind, aiming at the alps hill at the end of the fairway. That hill makes the approach shot blind. The hole culminates in the best punchbowl green in all of golf, one that must be seen to be believed. The walk over the alps hill, when this green first comes into view, is one that no golfer will ever forget."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c4-fishersisland1-jc-e1485830971284.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c4-fishersisland-jc-e1485831010437.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c4-fishersisland2-jc-e1485831001316.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c4-fishersisland3-jc-e1485831447559.jpg)
Our runners-up - Chicago GC, Bethpage Black, Inverness, Myopia, Seminole, Pinehurst #2
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Wow, what a 3-4 combination, they even flow together because of the shared uphill nature. The easiest no-brainer in golf/gca: 18 downhillers or 18 uphillers, the latter is always going to be better golf!
Thanks again, gents.
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Other nominations for Fourth Hole:
Yale (Ben Crenshaw: "a perfect use of water as a driving hazard")
The subject of "The Great Debate" thread: Mid-Pines.
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Fisher's Island is world class golf porn. Simply breathtaking. Gotta get there. I've played Oakmont three times and I can honestly say that it's the most fun penal course I've ever played.
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If forced to choose a single golf hole to play for the rest of my life, I would choose #4 at Fishers Island.
Perhaps it is the setting (with the waves of Long Island Sound lapping the coast gently to the right); perhaps it is the pure fun of the Alps/Punchbowl combo; perhaps it is the firm conditions at FI. Whatever it is, it all adds up to a fun hole on which to play golf. Great choice.
I have played a few of the honorable mentions and while they are great holes, this one isn't close for me.
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The 5th on our Classic Great 18 is Merion East #5, a par-4.
Another one that I have not played, but Peter and Jon have. Their comments:
"A simple yet extremely difficult hole, Merion’s fifth begins with a tee shot to a canted fairway sweeping left toward a small creek that runs the length. Aggressive tee shots challenging the creek will have the better approach. The green is a masterwork of simplicity and terror, with a steep slope toward the creek. Any approach with right to left movement into this green risks winding up in the hazard, and putts from above a left pin often meet the same watery fate."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c5-merion-jc-e1485918536899.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/c5-merion1-jc-e1485918547762.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Crystal Downs, Chicago GC, Fishers Island, Pinehurst #2, Riviera, Old Town Club, Mountain Lake, Philadelphia Cricket Club
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Jason,
Sorry to interrupt your classic 18 with my modern 18. But finally got around to putting together my Modern 18 list. I'll get around to commenting on the classic list too.
Plays to a par 72 of 6610 yards. Par 36 front, 3385. Par 36 back, 3225.
1. Wolf Run | Par 4 | 420 | Best opener apart from Kingsley and Crystal Downs I've played
2. Erin Hills | Par 4 | 330 | Such a fun hole with the blind tee shot and tiny green. Will be fun to see it in the US Open
3. Secession | Par 4 | 450 | Kind of a brutal hole, but I love the ambiance of Secession and this hole really sums up the place.
4. World Woods | Par 5 | 560 | One of the best par 5s I've played. So many options
5. Streamsong Blue | Par 3 | 115 | Options galore, very stressful par 3 for being so short
6. Whislting Straits | Par 4 | 350 | My favorite hole on one of my favorite courses. I love the tee shot and the green.
7. Streamsong Red | Par 5 | 580 | One of my favorite par 5s. I love the inverted bunker. Dictates every shot.
8. Desert Forest | Par 3 | 230 | Spectacular downhill par 3. Great hole at a great place.
9. Blackwolf Run | Par 4 | 350 | Talk about options. Classic Dye. Tempts you into playing the dumb shot, but should be an easy hole
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10. Kiawah Ocean | Par 4 | 430 | Probably my favorite tee ball on the course. Tee shot and approach call for different shot shapes
11. Old Memorial | Par 5 | 510 | Another split fairway par 5 and I think it really works. Greensite may be a little severe
12. Chechessee Creek | Par 4 | 330 | C&C template Lions Mouth green, but the tee shot is spectacular
13. Crooked Stick | Par 3 | 185 | Fairly polarizing hole, but I think it's very unique. Semi-blind tee shot into a short-ish par 3
14. Brickyard Crossing | Par 4 | 290 | One of Dye's best short par 4s. Eagle and Double in play equally
15. Porto Cima | Par 5 | 550 | More of a personal favorite, but I love the downhill tee shot and approach into the penisula green
16. We-Ko-Pa Saguaro | Par 4 | 330 | One of the better uphill holes I've played. I love everything about this hole
17. TPC Sawgrass | Par 3 | 150 | This one is probably cliche, but why mess with what works
18. Harbor Town | Par 4 | 450 | Maybe the best 18th hole I've ever played. Really feels like the entire round builds to that tee shot
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Jason, I've been busy with other things and just getting caught up on your thread again. Using your criteria along with the extra criteria of not using any holes you selected or honorable mentions, here is my classic list. It kills me not being able to use the 4th from Fishers, the 8th from Pebble Beach, the 15th from Sleepy Hollow, and some of my favorites from Pine Valley, but alas here is what I came up with:
| Hole | Course/Hole | Yards | Par |
| 1 | Oak Hill (East) | 460 | 4 |
| 2 | Peachtree | 584 | 5 |
| 3 | Sleepy Hollow C.C. | 167 | 3 |
| 4 | The Country Club | 335 | 4 |
| 5 | Bethpage (Black) | 478 | 4 |
| 6 | Blue Lakes CC | 200 | 3 |
| 7 | Plainfield | 471 | 4 |
| 8 | Piping Rock | 445 | 4 |
| 9 | Interlachen CC | 530 | 5 |
| 10 | Omaha CC | 506 | 5 |
| 11 | Oakland Hills (South) | 455 | 4 |
| 12 | Congressional (Gold) | 434 | 4 |
| 13 | Crystal Downs | 442 | 4 |
| 14 | Shinnecock Hills | 449 | 4 |
| 15 | Pine Valley | 615 | 5 |
| 16 | Cypress Point | 222 | 3 |
| 17 | Merion | 220 | 3 |
| 18 | Riviera | 451 | 4 |
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A lot of those are probably familiar offerings. Here are a few comments on the ones that may not be:
#6 Blue Lakes CC - Twin Falls, ID - This course is a unknown gem for a lot of the world with three incredibly scenic par 3s that utilize the Snake River or a tributary of it. The course is pinched between towering lava rock walls and Idaho's life blood; the Snake River. The drive down to the club is an entertaining experience by itself as the road switchbacks several times before narrowing down to a single lane as you descend down the canyon to the property. The views of the naturally blue lake on the back nine and the unique setting are impressive to say the least. The 6th hole is a 200 yard poke for every tee box and drops over 100 feet on the way to the green that sits out in the Snake River with a grove of trees being the lone barrier between the green and the moving water. It's an unforgettable hole that probably couldn't be built today given the proximity to the river.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/idaho/bluelakes/large/Blue-Lakes-6th-2012.jpg)
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10th - Omaha County Club - I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed Omaha CC. The terrain is very hilly which creates a ton of fun holes to play. The 10th is a short par five that plays 80 feet downhill off the tee to the bottom of a valley that features a creek coming in from the right side before it tunnels under the fairway. The approach shot(s) play 30 feet back uphill to a left-to-right sloping green with bunkering ready to catch shots that leak to the gravity driven right side of the hole.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/omahacc/large/Omaha-CC-10th.jpg)
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/omahacc/large/Omaha-CC-10th-hole.jpg)
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12th - Congressional CC (Gold) - While the Blue course gets all the hype, and deserves it considering it is the better of the two tracks, the 12th green on the Gold course was the most engaging and challenging putting surface of Congressional's 36 holes. The tee shot plays over a pond to a fairway that doglegs hard left through a forest of trees. Upon emerging from the dogleg players are presented with a downhill sloping fairway that is pinched on the right by a pond before finishing at a green site protected by a pot bunker in the front and water on the right. The back-to-front and left-to-right slope in the green is much more severe than any first time visitor could ever imagine. In fact, I spent at least ten minutes hitting various putts from different parts of the green and I kept being amazed at the results. This hole requires precision off the tee, wisdom on the approach, and meticulous touch on the green for any chance of walking away with a par.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/maryland/congressional(gold)/large/Congressional-(Gold)-12th.jpg)
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/maryland/congressional(gold)/large/Congressional-(Gold)-12th-approach.jpg)
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10th - Omaha County Club - I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed Omaha CC. The terrain is very hilly which creates a ton of fun holes to play. The 10th is a short par five that plays 80 feet downhill off the tee to the bottom of a valley that features a creek coming in from the right side before it tunnels under the fairway. The approach shot(s) play 30 feet back uphill to a left-to-right sloping green with bunkering ready to catch shots that leak to the gravity driven right side of the hole.
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/omahacc/large/Omaha-CC-10th.jpg)
(http://golfcoursegurus.com/photos/nebraska/omahacc/large/Omaha-CC-10th-hole.jpg)
Wow, if that doesn't scream Perry Maxwell, I don't know what does! That's a beautiful looking golf hole.
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Thanks for sharing your courses, comments and photos Billy and Josh. Omaha CC and Blue Lakes CC look special.
Keep those nominations coming all!
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Thread jack. Not nice.
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The 6th on our Classic Great 18 is Eastward Ho! #6, a par-4.
The great par-4s just keep on coming. I promise that this is not a course of 18 par-4s, although now that the thought has arisen...later perhaps.
EH #6 is a favorite of Jon's, and he is the only one of our trio who has played it. His comments:
"The 6th hole at Eastward Ho! is one of the most spectacular par 4s in American golf. Plunging sharply downhill through a valley created by some of the most severely sloping fairways you’ll ever see, the 6th plays shorter than its yardage but is far from easy. The elevated green sits hard on the water’s edge, providing panoramic views of the bay and the small islands in the distance."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c6-eastwardho2-jc-e1486002083409.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c6-eastwardho3-jc-e1486002092254.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c6-eastwardho-jc-e1486002101543.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c6-eastwardho1-jc-e1486002075299.jpeg)
Our runners-up - The Creek Club, Shoreacres, Olympia Fields CC South, Seminole, Riviera, Lawsonia, Roaring Gap Club, Pebble Beach
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The 7th on our Classic Great 18 is Lawsonia Links #7, a par-3.
Any hole that was built by burying a large piece of machinery is great in our book, but the 7th at Lawsonia is more than just an epic construction story. It embodies the combination of enormous scale of greens and hazards with subtle genius green contours that Langford & Moreau designed into nearly every hole on the course.
There is plenty of green to work with from the tee, but it doesn't look that way relative to the massive drop-off right. That causes a tendency to bail out left. Balls that find the bunker left are no picnic either, with overzealous explosions risk running across the green and right down to the spot the player was attempting to avoid in the first place.
This a great hole, and it isn't even our favorite on the course. Count us among Lawsonia's devotees.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c7-lawsonia2-pk-e1486089508915.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c7-lawsonia1-pk-e1486089517716.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c7-lawsonialinks-jw-e1486089532663.jpg)
Our runners-up - Chicago GC, Ekwanok, Kittansett, Maidstone, Crystal Downs, Pebble Beach, Inverness
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Jason & Co. Thank you for doing this. Very entertaining and nice to get some looks at some of the highest regarded holes at great courses both modern and classic. It is also 2 PM on a Friday and it was great to kill 20 minutes going through this. Feedback so far would be the following:
Modern #6: Hands down The Golf Club. Top 10 or so hole I have ever played.
Classic #6: This may not be architecturally popular since modern technology has rendered it a little too short but Shinnecock #6 is my favorite hole on that course. I caddied there for 5 years and while there are numerous other great holes on that course I found that one to be very demanding and fun especially when played in wind.
Classic #7; Redan at Chicago is great.
Pulling for Yale at #9.
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Thanks for chiming in with your nominations Declan. Glad that you're enjoying our little adventure thus far.
What other #1-#7 favorites have we missed y'all?
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The 8th on our Classic Great 18 is Pebble Beach #8, a par-4.
Peter and Jon have played Pebble, and I have not. It is one of Peter's favorites - here are his comments:
"Words on their own cannot properly describe the majesty of the 8th at Pebble. Hitting blind, the hole kicks off with a flare for links golf. Upon reaching the crest, the player is met with a jaw-dropping vista that few, if any, holes in the game can replicate. With winds whipping, and a thrilling approach looming, the iconic eighth defines timelessness for its players."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c8-pebblebeach2-jc-e1486169289233.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c8-pebblebeach3-jc-e1486169297753.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c8-pebblebeach-jc-e1486169315270.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c8-pebblebeach4-jc-e1486169306891.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c8-pebblebeach1-jc-e1486169278419.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Crystal Downs, Orchard Lake, Essex County Club, Blue Mound, Prairie Dunes, Maidstone, Wykagyl, Pine Valley, Riviera, Old Town Club, Yale
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Allllrighty, after a brief break for my day job, we are back with the 9th on our Classic Great 18 - Myopia Hunt Club #9, a par-3.
I had seen Jon's pictures of the 9th many times before playing it, and this hole still blew me away when I finally saw it in person. Much of the rest of Myopia has a very simple and elegant style to it. This one-shotter, with its wild bunkering, is an explosion of artistic flair.
The green too is unique in my experience. Oriented slightly on an angle to the tee and extremely narrow, it is one of those greens (like the 2nd at Kingsley and 17th at Sand Hills) that is easiest to hit the first time, when the player isn't fully aware of just how small the target is.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c9-myopia1-jc-e1486769613730.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c9-myopia2-jw-e1486769625412.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c9-myopia-jc-e1486769635440.jpg)
Our runners-up - Oakmont, Milwaukee CC, Yale, Maidstone, Shinnecock, Pebble Beach, Onwentsia, Fishers Island, Pinehurst #2
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The 10th on our Classic Great 18 is Shoreacres #10, a Road Hole par-4.
With the tree clearing and fairway widening undertaken by Brian Palmer and crew, an argument can be made (and we would probably make it) that this is the best Road Hole template in America.
The depression down the right, with its beautiful contours, plays the role of the hotel. Misjudged tee shots that find this low area of rough can recover, but have almost no chance of holding the green, which is elevated and kept firm.
The right must be challenged though in order to get an angle into the green that provides any hope of holding. A long bunker playing the role of the road awaits unsuccessful attempts at the frontal assault.
The road hole bunker fronting the green is not as difficult as other MacRaynor versions, but it still dictates strategy, and provides ample challenge for those unfortunate enough to find it. Like the original, a long left bailout option exists at SA #10 in the form of a closely mown runoff, but taking this route leaves the player with a testy bump, chip, or putt up to a green that is typically lightning quick.
This hole at Shoreacres, perhaps more than any other, cannot be overpowered and rewards the player who combines strategic thinking with savvy execution.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c10-shoreacres-jc-e1486950000223.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c10-shoreacres1-jc-e1486950010252.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c10-shoreacres2-jc-e1486950019790.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Shinnecock, Milwaukee CC, Prairie Dunes, Riviera, Winged Foot West, Chicago GC, Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, Yale, Kirtland CC
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The 11th on our Classic Great 18 is The Country Club at Brookline #11, a par-5.
Just like the TCC, our Great 18 does not reach its first three-shotter until the 11th, and this one is wonderful.
Snaking downhill between rock outcroppings, over a creek, and then back up to a green set above a series of staggered bunkers, the 11th encapsulates the timeless beauty and depth of character of The Country Club. It also provides the player a chance to decide between conservative and aggressive plays on the tee, and on the second shot. Thoughtful aggressiveness is rewarded with a legitimate chance at birdie. Recklessness is punished - as it should be.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c11-tcc1-jc-e1487029476213.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c11-tcc2-jc-e1487029487274.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c11-tcc-jc-e1487029499321.jpg)
Our runners-up - Merion, Essex County Club, Kittansett, Camargo, Shinnecock, Plainfield CC, Fishers Island, Seminole, Mountain Lake, Olympia Fields CC South, Brookside Canton
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Very nice. Oakland Hills South #11 should be on there.
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Very nice. Oakland Hills South #11 should be on there.
Good point. I agree.
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The 12th on our Classic Great 18 is Old Town Club #12, a par-4.
I haven't played OTC, but Peter and Jon have - Jon's comments:
"Options abound at Old Town. At the twelfth, the player must decide whether to play up the high left side of the fairway, leaving a sidehill approach that is shorter but blind to the green, or to play right to a lower, flatter part of the fairway further back from which the green is visible. The variety of the landforms and terrain at Old Town is staggering, and they are on full display on this great hole."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c12-oldtownclub-jc-e1487123769413.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c12-oldtown1-jc-e1487123778962.jpeg)
Our runners-up - Oakmont, Essex County Club, Prairie Dunes, Wannamoisett, Shoreacres, Skokie CC
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The 13th on our Classic Great 18 is Pine Valley #13, a par-4.
Peter is the only one of us who has played this beauty, and it is one of his all-time favorites. Comments and pictures are his:
"Likely the purest hole at the Valley. It is said Crump did not move any land to find the 13th – he simply took out a few trees, spread some seed, and put a tee in the ground. Demands are plentiful from the choice of a strategic line off the tee, to the heart pounding approach, to the extreme caution necessary while on the dance floor. When it comes to natural holes, few exceed the 13th."
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c13-pinevalley2-pk-e1487212749994.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c13-pinevalley-pk-e1487212728516.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c13-pinevalley3-pk-e1487212758363.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c13-pinevalley1-pk-e1487212738570.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c13-pinevalley4-pk-e1487212769504.jpg)
Our runners-up - Orchard Lake, Essex County Club, Onwentsia, Kirtland CC, Seminole
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Thanks again, Jason.
There are so many, and so many kinds, of wonderful looking and strategically engaging/challenging golf holes in the world, but from the perspective of craftsmanship alone nothing impresses me more than an architect who manages, on a flattish site and with obviously man-made features/contours, to create a golf hole that is as appealing to the eye and as appropriate to the game as is a natural/found golf hole on a undulating and much more dramatic site. Which is to say: to me, Shoreacres' 10th and Myopia's 9th are marvelous examples of the great magic trick that some (rare) architects are able to pull off i.e. the trick of making the wholly man-made look as 'right' and fitting as a C&C hole at Sand Hills.
Peter
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A note to your description of the 13th at Pine Valley - technically correct, but the technicality of it was that George Crump had killed himself before his planned 13th hole was built. Holes 12-15 were completed by the committee of his friends tasked with finishing the project.
I've always believed this is the best hole at Pine Valley, but it usually gets left out of these Eclectics because of 13 at Augusta, and because Pine Valley has so many other capable candidates. It's a great driving hole that plays different from the two angles, and a sublime falling-away approach.
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I am lucky enough to say I know from personal experience how great 13 at Pine Valley is. I played it twice, hit the green in regulation twice, and three-putted twice. It's a massive green with a lot of undulation. I was so happy I hit the green in regulation that I blew my chances for par.
In my opinion, there is only one line you really can play off the tee. The fairway falls off on the left side and you will be blocked out form the trees if you miss the fairway left. If you look at the first picture, you really need to hit it over the path. If you pull it a little left over those shrubs, your ball will kick left and you will be blocked out. The left side of the fairway runs out faster than you think. There is a lot of room right so if you get a little too cautious, you will likely still be in the fairway but have a very long shot in.
The second shot and the green are everything you hoped they would be.
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Since 13 at Pine Valley was picked instead of 13 at Augusta, I'm surprised the 12th at Augusta didn't get the nod.
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Since 13 at Pine Valley was picked instead of 13 at Augusta, I'm surprised the 12th at Augusta didn't get the nod.
Courses we've played....
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Since 13 at Pine Valley was picked instead of 13 at Augusta, I'm surprised the 12th at Augusta didn't get the nod.
Courses we've played....
Is Augusta the only obvious candidate that wasn't cons under this rule?
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Courses we've played....
Is Augusta the only obvious candidate that wasn't cons under this rule?
I can't think of any other biggies that one of haven't hit, although there were many many holes and courses we forgot in the process.
Cypress Point wasn't originally in the discussion, but Jon played it between when we made the list and publicized the Classic 18, so we snuck one surprise into the mix.
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The 14th on our Classic Great 18 is Crystal Downs #14, a par-3.
What makes this one-shotter great is the green. It is packed with subtle contour and canted, a combination that can provide just as much misery as its more overtly severe back-nine sibling, the 11th.
What makes this hole one of our all-time favorite short threes is the much improved setting. The green sits on a perch behind and among wonderful MacKenzie/Maxwell bunkers, and appears slightly crowned from the tee. Tree clearing on the ridge behind the green has created an infinity effect, and a gorgeous view from this back corner of the property. Put it all together, and it is as once breathtakingly beautiful, and terrifying.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c14-crystaldowns2-jw-e1487430824244.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c14-crystaldowns-jw-e1487430853474.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c14-crystaldowns3-pk-e1487430834762.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c14-crystaldowns1-jc-e1487430813343.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c14-crystaldowns4-pk-e1487430844851.jpg)
Our-runners up - Maidstone, Seminole, Olympia Fields CC North, Brookside Canton, Skokie CC
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An unusual choice, and one that I enjoyed. A nice little par 3 on a course where the front nine gets most of the attention. The view of the Sleeping Bear Dunes in the distance is great.
On the west coast, Pasatiempo has an excellent 14th hole, with a large swale on the left side and then crossing the fairway at a strategic distance off the tee. The green is very gentle, and rests comfortably on flattish land. A very nice mid-length par 4 of 400-430 yards or so.
Of course, Pebble Beach has a famous 14th hole, with a very small green and a steeply uphill approach. Apparently, the renovation of the green made it possible to use the right half for hole locations. I'm not sure I regard this as a great hole.
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Thanks for chiming in John. Pasatiempo #14 definitely makes the cut for me. Just plain forgot that one. It starts one of the better stretches of holes on the planet too.
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Ah, the 14th at CD...I have bithered that hole nearly every time I've played it.
I have, however, made one of the most surprising agronomic discoveries in my career here; I was walking to the green with my head down(as always), looking at the ground beneath my feet. As I neared the end of the walk path to the green, I noticed something unusual, so I stopped and turned back...still looking at the ground. The grass was not a normal type for the area, and I was sure of what it was, but didn't say much because it would have sounded wrong. So I plucked a runner of the grass and put it in my bag, and gave it to Mike Morris, the superintendent, and asked him to indentfy it. He sent it to the lab, and confirmed my suspicion.....common bermudagrass! In Northern Michigan.....I'd seen it down at Lost Dunes so I know it can survive here, but this far north, it took me by surprise.
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Thank you, Jason, for picking a Par 3 (and that one in particular) from Crystal Downs.
I've only played the course once; and I think that when I've mentioned this before on here most have probably chalked me up as a country bumpkin -- but aside for the Par 5 8th, the day after I played the golf holes that I most remembered were the Par 3s. JK has a ton more experience and insight than I have, so maybe he's right that it's a "nice little Par 3'; but for me, the 14th is everything a Par 3 should be; no less, but also -- and this I think is the key to its wonderfulness -- no more, either.
Peter
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Without the rule limiting every course to one hole, I wonder how different both the modern and classic 18s would look?
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Without the rule limiting every course to one hole, I wonder how different both the modern and classic 18s would look?
Without that rule, I am not sure that we would have ever finished the course Jim. Especially on the Classic side, we each have some pretty strong attachments to a short list of courses, and we might have gotten into a fist fight.
That being said, I am interested to see any Great 18s that y'all want to put together that break that rule. The question that sticks in my head from this exercise is, is it possible to make an eclectic that is greater than a single architect's greatest hits, or the greatest course by a single architect?
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The 15th on our Classic Great 18 is Sleepy Hollow #15, a par-4.
Jon is the only one of us who has played SH and it is one of his favorite courses. His comments:
"An Alps/Punchbowl amalgamation, the combination of features found on this hole are unique. The fairway is generous but canted rather substantially from high left to low right, and the long approach shot is entirely blind with the green sitting some 20-30 feet below. As the player crests the fairway, he is rewarded with the breathtaking view of the punchbowl green, with the sixteenth green behind and the Hudson river valley far below."
In retrospect, perhaps I should have edited out either this hole or the 4th at Fisher's Island in favor of more variety, but both holes are so cool and I didn't want to make Jon's little heart sad.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c15-sleepyhollow2-jc-e1487519075395.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c15-sleepyhollow1-jc-e1487519058146.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c15-sleepyhollow-jc-e1487519112266.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c15-sleepyhollow3-jc-e1487519104910.jpeg)
Our Runners-up - NGLA, Canterbury, Brookside Canton, Skokie CC, Roaring Gap Club
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I will fight you if you try to take away the 4th at Fishers or the 15th at Sleepy. You can never have too many Alps/Punchbowls.
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I will fight you if you try to take away the 4th at Fishers or the 15th at Sleepy. You can never have too many Alps/Punchbowls.
Kind of like the cowbell. Always gotta have more...
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This is where our Classic Great 18 got a little interesting. We made a selection and put the content together, and then Jon played Cypress Point.
Soooo, let's start with CPC's par-3 #16, and then circle back to our original choice. Jon's comments:
“It is the most spectacular hole in the world and the most thrilling … 200 yards of wild sea and rocky coast.” – Robert Hunter
The most famous Par-3 in the world, the 16th hole at Cypress Point Club is so captivating, that upon seeing it for the first time, a golfer reimagines what is possible, as fantasy becomes reality before his very eyes. In fact, this hole is so staggeringly gorgeous that its considerable strategic merits are often overlooked.
The hole offers not one, not two, but three valid lines of play from the tee – a 200+ yard carry straight at the green, a 100 yard carry on a line up the fairway between a grove of cypress trees and the green, and farther left still, to the left of those trees, an even shorter carry. In match play, the significance of these options cannot be overstated. The green itself is huge and receptive to well-struck shots, and the fairway will direct good shots on a more conservative line closer to the green.
Alister Mackenzie rightfully gets credit for the gem that is Cypress Point, but the 16th also owes its brilliance to Seth Raynor, who originally routed the hole, and visionary Marion Hollins, who insisted over Mackenzie’s objections that the hole remain a par-3.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint2-jc-e1487630831247.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint-jc-e1487630811584.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint3-jc-e1487630841471.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint4-jc-e1487630851162.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint1-jc-e1487630821280.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-cypresspoint5-jc-e1487630859837.jpeg)
Our Runners-Up - Old Elm, Shinnecock, Myopia, NGLA, Sleepy Hollow, Merion, Canterbury, Kirtland CC, Skokie CC, Roaring Gap Club, Philadelphia Cricket Club, Pasatiempo
And our original selection, Pasatiempo #16, a par-4. Dr. Mackenzie will forgive us for swapping out one of his holes for another. Our original comments:
It is said that Pasatiempo’s sixth is one of the good Doctor’s all-time favorite holes. It’s hard to argue with the creator. Cresting the hill to discover where one’s tee shot came to rest, the player is met with a view of this all-world tiered green that seems to be melting into the recently restored barranca. It is obvious from the fairway that the approach must be placed both on the correct tier and below the hole – exhilarating and terrifying!
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-pasatiempo1-jw.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-pasatiempo-jc-e1487631413980.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c16-pasatiempo2-jc-e1487631403594.jpeg)
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The 17th on our Classic Great 18 is Prairie Dunes #17, a par-5.
This lay of the land five-par plays beautifully uphill over rumpled ground, bringing to mind thoughts of the 8th at Crystal Downs.
Maxwell's genius is evident in both his restraint tee to green, and the green setting itself. With a nasty bunker left and a steep drop-off right, the player finds himself between Scylla and Charybdis trying to judge the wind and distance properly to land safely on the green.
The adventure doesn't end when the approach finds the green, which is brilliantly contoured and separated into distinct sections. The wind quickly blows away any relief as the player attempts to navigate his ball safely into the hole.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c17-prairiedunes1-jc-e1487722916726.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c17-prairiedunes3-jw-e1487722935747.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c17-prairiedunes2-jc-e1487722926953.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c17-prairiedunes-jw-e1487722905945.jpg)
Our Runners-up - NGLA, Essex County Club, St. George, Seminole, Old Town Club, Yale, Olympia Fields CC North, Roaring Gap Club
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This is a terrific choice. PD has a bunch of amazing holes and this just might be the best. On another note, I can't see 17 at Olympia North being a runner up here. In my judgment, it's the second best 17th hole on that property.
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Haven't played PD, but I will nominate the #17 at Orchard Lake.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img673/9999/OEP3R7.png)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img745/5568/xatMva.jpg)
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Haven't played PD, but I will nominate the #17 at Orchard Lake.
Great pick Ben. Can't believe that I forgot that one. I absolutely loved that hole.
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We conclude this adventure with my favorite of all classic courses played to date. The 18th on our Classic Great 18 is Essex County Club #18, a par-4.
Home holes that return to the clubhouse have a special place in our hearts, and none do so more dramatically than the great finisher at Essex County. Recent tree removal and restoration work here by Superintendent Eric Richardson and his staff have revealed the beauty of the topography, as well as the view of the outstanding clubhouse.
The boldness of Donald Ross’s vision manifested in the twists and turns of the fairway, and the sublime creekside green setting are unparalleled. The green provides one last taste of The Donald as well - canted, subtly crowned and contoured, it is the kind of putting surface that takes a lifetime to master.
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c18-essexcounty-jc-e1487808798215.jpg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c18-essexcounty2-jc-e1487808819165.jpeg)
(https://geekedongolf.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c18-essexcounty1-jc-e1487808809462.jpeg)
Our Runners-up - Pebble Beach, Yale, Oakmont, Milwaukee CC, Inverness, Garden City
We hope you enjoyed our little cold-weather escape, and this walk through greatness. Think you can do better? Bring it on.
PGKorbs, JCavs, and Wizay out.
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Jason and gang,
Thanks for this thread. It's been fun to follow along and see what fellow afficianado's holds up as "great". I like where you all went with this. Thanks to everyone who chimed in with opinions as well.
Joe
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Can the person that nominated #3 at Sweetens Cove please tell me what made the hole worthy in your opinion. It was my least favorite hole of the layout. Unforgettable, for all the wrong reasons. Please don't take this as me detracting from the genius of the 9 in total. I could play that 9 every day for the rest of my life and never get bored or complain...except when I played #3 every lap. I just saw a bowling lane with o.b. Down the whole left, a huge bunker right, and a tree in front of the green. It was a cool green with an elephant buried under it; but, the hole was not really fun or interesting.
1,4,5,6,7,8,& 9 were glorious
Let me add that I only went around once so I could have been lost or not paying attention for those few minutes.
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This is a terrific choice. PD has a bunch of amazing holes and this just might be the best. On another note, I can't see 17 at Olympia North being a runner up here. In my judgment, it's the second best 17th hole on that property.
Judge--
I love the 17th on North. So much so I believe it is one of the more underrated architectural holes on the property. It has two aspects of architecture I absolutely love: 1. a green that slopes front to back 2. A partially blind approach shot (in that you cannot see the bottom third/half of the flag stick.
You have options off the tee which face risk. The farther you hit up, the more you have to challenge the left fw bunker. The green I believe is the most subtle on the property. By that I mean you'd be pressed to find a hole where golfers will miss more putts inside 10' than on 17. Most importantly, I think the 2nd shot is so hard to judge. Typically you have the wind off your back, uphill shot, somewhat blind, green sloping away. I don't know, I love it.
Also, compared to 17 South, ehhh. I thikn 17S is pretty solid for a bunkerless hole with a simple, timeless protected green.... but it's too over treed. If you hit it too far down the left you have tree problems coming in, and if you bite off too much of the corner with a well struck shot, you'll rattle in the garbage right. IMO the hole would be vastly improved from some tree removal. At the same time we can say that about quite a few places across Chicago and the country.
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Jason, Peter and Jon:
Those are both definitely great 18's. Any chance you'll do an international version?
Couldn't post without one quibble, which is to ask if Skokie is really deserving of five honorable mentions? And if it is, why isn't 8 on the list? I'd take 8 over any of the ones you noted from the 14-16 stretch, and could buy an argument that it is a better hole than 1 and 12.
Sven
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Nice ending! That's a great example of golf porn at its apogee. Thanks for the work, it was an enjoyable ride.
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Thanks fellas. Appreciate you all following along and kicking in your nominations.
I compiled all the photos and our commentary here -> https://bit.ly/AmericasGreat18s for those who would like to see a presentation that is a bit more concise.
Sven, we aren't well travelled enough to do an International version. Hopefully, some day...