Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Benjamin Litman on January 27, 2016, 04:58:56 PM
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My first golf trip abroad, in 2009, began in Wales with a wonderful pas de deux at Royal Porthcawl and Pennard. So memorable was my experience that my Pennard ball marker--with the white-and-green Welsh flag and its red dragon on one side, and a silhouette of the Pennard castle ruins against a black background on the other--has been with me for every single round of golf I have played in the years since.
So, when I see the course mentioned, I perk up. Several minutes ago, Ron Whitten tweeted the news that Tom "has been retained to rework" both Pennard and England's Woodhall Spa, which I unfortunately did not get to on that trip. Congratulations are certainly in order, as both are among the most beloved courses in the United Kingdom.
Perhaps this is "old" news, as I see that our own Adam Lawrence already wrote and posted an article about Tom's Pennard appointment on the Golf Course Architecture website in late November: http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/pennard-appoints-tom-doak-to-consult-on-bunker-rebuilding-work. But I do not recall it having previously been mentioned here, at least officially (Tom did allude in a January 18 post to having "spent the day consulting at Pennard").
Two days ago, Golf Course Architecture posted a separate article about Tom's appointment at Woodhall Spa: http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/tom-doak-to-advise-on-national-golf-centre-development-plan. The England Golf website also has an article from the weekend: http://www.englandgolf.org/news.aspx?itemid=8727&itemTitle=Top+golf+architect+Tom+Doak+appointed+by+National+Golf+Centre&sitesectionid=38&sitesectiontitle=News
Hopefully Tom or others will provide additional details soon.
P.S. For those unfamiliar with Pennard, see Sean Arble's excellent "In My Opinion" piece on the course here: http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/pennard-golf-club/.
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Benjamin:
Yes, I just returned from a week in the U.K., making my first visits to Pennard and Woodhall Spa and also interviewing at another course.
I decided last year that since I was planning to spend a lot of time in Europe the next two years for The Confidential Guide, and since I now have two young associates based in Europe -- Clyde Johnson in the UK, and Angela Moser in Germany -- that I ought to take up a few consulting assignments there instead of passing on them. And it just so happened that two of my favorite courses in the UK were looking for a consultant!
Pennard is embarking on the reconstruction of all its revetted bunkers with a synthetic material, and we will try to help them get the artwork right. Eventually, there are a couple of greens that will need some work [they're so steep there are barely any hole locations], and some safety issues to sort out with all the walking paths that traverse the course.
Woodhall Spa is trying to re-establish more of the heathland feel it's always had, and to sort out how to reconstruct and maintain some of those very steep bunker faces they've got. We also identified that they've lost good hole locations on many of the greens through years of shrinkage, so they will start this winter to mow the greens back out to the edges of slopes, and closer to the green side bunkers.
I found out last week that it is not very convenient to get from one course to the other so maybe we can find a couple of other clients in between. Clyde and I did stop in at Cleeve Cloud briefly before dark on our way across England, and though it was mostly covered by frost, it was certainly an eye-opener! I'll leave more time to play my next trip through.
P.S. We've also signed up one other new consulting client, in the other direction from home: Bel Air, in Los Angeles.
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How many people are torn in their feelings about work being done at places like Pennard? When mention of safety I immediately wonder if holes 3/4 are on the chopping block. I understand why safety concerns need to be addressed if there is increased play, which is a good thing for revenue but a bad thing for the feel of the course.
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How many people are torn in their feelings about work being done at places like Pennard? When mention of safety I immediately wonder if holes 3/4 are on the chopping block. I understand why safety concerns need to be addressed if there is increased play, which is a good thing for revenue but a bad thing for the feel of the course.
Joe:
Holes 3 and 4 are not "on the chopping block" although they just did a bit of work on #4 before I got involved, to make the walkers more visible.
Every course does some "work" at some point, whether it's just rebuilding existing features or making changes. Between when I first saw Pennard in 1982 and today, they've rebuilt both the 4th and 5th greens away from the property boundary, changed the 16th green, and taken out a dune in front of the 13th green and the two greenside bunkers there.
A lot of times, I'm involved in advising clubs NOT to do that sort of work before they've thought it all through. If we do change things around, it will be on us to keep the work in the same rugged spirit as the rest of the course, of which I am very fond.
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Ciao
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Pennard #4 is a very confusing hole to me even after three rounds there. Never did get a handle on the best line for either of the first two shots on that par 5. I thought #3 was a pretty straight forward, very solid par 4.
If I understand correctly, there's a new green on 2. Could someone describe it? It was one of the smallest greens I've seen.
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P.S. We've also signed up one other new consulting client, in the other direction from home: Bel Air, in Los Angeles.
I don't want to high-jack this thread and didn't want to start a new one until I knew the Bel Air news was out in the open. Can you comment on what work you will be doing and specifically the 7th green and cement ponds on 8?
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Pennard #4 is a very confusing hole to me even after three rounds there. Never did get a handle on the best line for either of the first two shots on that par 5. I thought #3 was a pretty straight forward, very solid par 4.
If I understand correctly, there's a new green on 2. Could someone describe it? It was one of the smallest greens I've seen.
Ace
Sounds like user error....there is an aiming pole in the middle of the 4th fairway :o...and the shot isn't even blind :-* You aren't long enough to reach trouble on that line so your play should have been obvious...no? I can understand the confusion for the second...its blind most of the time.
Ciao
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Bel-Air verrrrry interesting. I thought Fazio was entrenched there. Sounds like more than consulting - Tom what have they asked you to do?
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Bel-Air verrrrry interesting. I thought Fazio was entrenched there. Sounds like more than consulting - Tom what have they asked you to do?
When Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide was released, I did an interview [perhaps the very one on this forum, I'm not sure] where someone asked me what course I'd most like to restore, and I volunteered Bel Air.
As it turned out, there are several members of Bel Air whom I know, who saw that, and so I was asked to come and explain myself.
We are just starting the process, so it's too early to say exactly what we will and won't do there. Not much will happen until after they host the U.S. Amateur stroke play rounds alongside Riviera, in the summer of 2017. However, I've told them that my basic philosophy about the course will be to restore every feature back to the way it was in Thomas' day, unless there is a specific reason not to do something in particular.
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Sean: Yes, the 16th is one of them. The 11th is the other ... it would have to be pretty slow to use the back half of it, although I guess not many people hit past the hole off the tee.
I don't know when you were last there, but last year the club tried to mow out a nine-hole par-3 course on the land beyond #1 and #2, and working out around #3 also. It's beautiful land. But so far they haven't put any work into trying to get the kids in the neighborhood to use it, so when I was there it was being used as a lovely dog park.
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Pennard #4 is a very confusing hole to me even after three rounds there. Never did get a handle on the best line for either of the first two shots on that par 5. I thought #3 was a pretty straight forward, very solid par 4.
If I understand correctly, there's a new green on 2. Could someone describe it? It was one of the smallest greens I've seen.
Ace
Sounds like user error....there is an aiming pole in the middle of the 4th fairway :o ...and the shot isn't even blind :-* You aren't long enough to reach trouble on that line so your play should have been obvious...no? I can understand the confusion for the second...its blind most of the time.
Ciao
"User error" is not usual for me as you know! Now that I think about it, doesn't the pole start one off pretty far right? It's been a few years...
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Clyde and I did stop in at Cleeve Cloud briefly before dark on our way across England, and though it was mostly covered by frost, it was certainly an eye-opener!
Tom,
You guys did well to even find Cleeve Cloud given the fog!
I'd be interested to hear more about the synthetic bunker revetting material. I believe it's being promoted by a South Wales company and that Southerndown have already used it. What are your initial thoughts?
atb
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Sean: Yes, the 16th is one of them. The 11th is the other ... it would have to be pretty slow to use the back half of it, although I guess not many people hit past the hole off the tee.
I don't know when you were last there, but last year the club tried to mow out a nine-hole par-3 course on the land beyond #1 and #2, and working out around #3 also. It's beautiful land. But so far they haven't put any work into trying to get the kids in the neighborhood to use it, so when I was there it was being used as a lovely dog park.
Tom
I always thought it a good idea to lessen the grade behind the 11th green as the green was carved out of the bank somewhat crudely...this would help make the rear of the green more usable for hole locations. Its very narrow green and balls do get hung up on the rear bank a little too often. The 11th is one of the few longer par 3s I hope to play into the wind simply to get the ball to hold. That said I would be very hesitant to alter the green surface because now it is the toughest green to read...befuddling at times.
Ace
Yes, the pole on 4th is right...right in the middle of the fairway. The dangerous aspect of the hole is the path hard on the OOB line down the middle of the fairway. So many people hit out to the left rough (especially if the hole is downwind) toward the 9th tee and the same footpath that hugs the OOB line. I suspect the club would like to do something more because of aspect of having to wait for pedestrians than safety...in summer it can be maddening when walkers don't pay any attention to golfers, but walkers have right of way.
I think the path down th left of 9 is more dangerous than on 4. The visibility on 4 is better so its easy to know when not to hit. On 9 people are walking uphill and seem to appear from nowhere. There are bunkers on that side to help with safety, but as the fairway lunges right, many people aim up the left side and go a little too far left, thus endangering the path. I think the best way to solve the problem is to widen the fairway a ton on the right. There is plenty of space. Sure, it lessens the quality of the hole some, but in truth now it is a little harsh in the summer because holding the fairway is near impossible...creating a situation where people play further left than they want to. Besides, its still a very challenging shot from the far right even if one has a good lie :D
Ciao
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Thomas on the subject of the synthetic bunker revetting They've done one bunker on the 9th at St Enodoch and I'm undecided whether I like it or not. I can see the benefits of not having to redo it after several years.
And although it has a build up of algae it still stands out
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Clyde and I did stop in at Cleeve Cloud briefly before dark on our way across England, and though it was mostly covered by frost, it was certainly an eye-opener!
Tom,
You guys did well to even find Cleeve Cloud given the fog!
I'd be interested to hear more about the synthetic bunker revetting material. I believe it's being promoted by a South Wales company and that Southerndown have already used it. What are your initial thoughts?
atb
I've seen Ecobunker in a number of locations and Rich Allen, the founder and inventor I count as a friend. It uses old astroturf instead of real turf for revetting. Very simple in concept, quite clever. It looks good, but obviously _very_ clean edged. If you're the sort of greenkeeper who likes absolutely perfect revet you will probably like it. If you like your courses a bit rougher round the edges, it might not suit quite so well.
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Some photos of the bunker work being mentioned at Pennard, via the PGC Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/PennardGolfClub/?fref=photo&ref=stream):
Hole 5:
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/12493946_720147798122063_5338150432289358085_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/12605319_720161031454073_8711831828858956484_o.jpg)
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Hmmm.
My first impression of this new bunker is too big and modern looking and not an improvement visually of the original traditional two.
Is there an explanation??
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I think the synthetic revetting just looks too thin. You kinda need the turf to 2" thick and the astro turf is 3/4". But I suppose that's not really a sensible reason why not to like it.
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John
No doubt Tom will speak for himself if this is his handy work but I like the fact that the new single bunker may or may not offer the opportunity to play more than just a splash out type of shot, even if it is with the loss of some nice contouring around existing bunkers.
Niall
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How long does the ecobunker last for and is it completely maintenance free ?
Niall
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.......[size=78%]_very_ clean edged. If you're the sort of greenkeeper who likes absolutely perfect revet you will probably like it. If you like your courses a bit rougher round the edges, it might not suit quite so well.[/size]
Be interesting to see how things develop given that some folk expect, even like, courses such as Pennard to be a bit rough around the edges and that the essential 'roughness' of the course, 'character' some might call it, is one of the reasons for visiting.
Atb
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The suggestion for altering the 5th bunker was mine. Even though Tom hadn’t had the opportunity to visit until last week, Pennard have been keen to push-on with things. Those two pots were very penal – both walking into them, and playing out. It seemed that extending the rear bunker a touch closer towards the tee, while also tapering it out slightly, with the remainder filled as a shallow hollow would help. That the green complex wasn’t original made the recommendation easier.
Apart from two days that I spent trying to get to grips with the ‘ecobunker’ at the start of the process back in October, neither of us have been on site to guide the details. These bunkers have lifespan of 20 years plus (no one really knows yet, of course)...bringing the cost savings, but locks things in from an artistic perspective! They plan on spreading the bunker work out of three years, tackling the most problematic ones this winter.
If the anticipated economics ring true, I wouldn’t be surprised to see quite a few more courses in the UK follow suit!
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I love those two courses and I hope the trend is not away from the pot/gathering style bunkers :(
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Ecobunker video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtaNac_yyXI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtaNac_yyXI)
Ecobunker at Southerdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYWT6UWJZU
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The construction of revetted bunkers is a slow process, and with the Eco Bunker it's even slower, because there are 3x as many layers of material to install. The up side is that once you've finished, it should last for a decade or more, and that's a significant budget savings for a club like Pennard. [They told me that they haven't had much $ left over to do any other "projects" in recent years because all the spare income for the year was spent rebuilding the bunkers.]
The down side of the Eco Bunker is that the slow pace makes it very expensive to bring in an experienced crew to do the work. There aren't many architects or shapers who have much experience with building these bunkers. By far the best guys for the work are the crew members who have been rebuilding a % of the bunkers at St. Andrews and Muirfield every winter. At The Renaissance Club, we had a great crew made up of guys from the other local clubs ... but we couldn't be around to supervise them, and sometimes we didn't leave them the right land form for them to translate into a cool bunker shape, because we are just guessing trying to visualize what they'll do.
As someone who has always tried to bring in my own shapers to make sure the finished product looks just how I want, this is a new and less than perfect process. I believe the quality of the work will continue to improve as the crew gains more experience with the materials ... and as we gain more experience in how to direct them.
In the meantime, I'm sure that Pennard will be happy to take volunteer construction help from anyone who wants to pitch in!
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Lovely to hear about both. Pennard is one of those magical experiences that we had only because of the original Confidential Guide.
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Tom,
At any point did Pennard consider abandoning the revetted bunkers in favor of a more natural look, like the old bunkers at St. Andrews, or even a combination of revetted and non-revetted bunkers similar to what you did at The Renaissance Club? If economics is the reasoning for the rework that would seem like a sensible long-term solution.
Also, has Woodhall Spa considered doing anything to the Bracken course? Admittedly, I didn't see it when I was there visiting and know very little about it. Is the land comparable to the Hotchkin?
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Tom and Clyde,
Thanks for the updates. I hope everything works out well and look forwarding to visiting. Very nice area the Gower Peninsula, can be a bit windy at times though!
Tom, are you indicating that St A, Muirfield and Renaissance are using eco-bunkering or just that the crews doing general revetting work at these courses are the best you've seen doing revetting work?
Atb
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The construction of revetted bunkers is a slow process, and with the Eco Bunker it's even slower, because there are 3x as many layers of material to install. The up side is that once you've finished, it should last for a decade or more, and that's a significant budget savings for a club like Pennard. [They told me that they haven't had much $ left over to do any other "projects" in recent years because all the spare income for the year was spent rebuilding the bunkers.]
The down side of the Eco Bunker is that the slow pace makes it very expensive to bring in an experienced crew to do the work. There aren't many architects or shapers who have much experience with building these bunkers. By far the best guys for the work are the crew members who have been rebuilding a % of the bunkers at St. Andrews and Muirfield every winter. At The Renaissance Club, we had a great crew made up of guys from the other local clubs ... but we couldn't be around to supervise them, and sometimes we didn't leave them the right land form for them to translate into a cool bunker shape, because we are just guessing trying to visualize what they'll do.
As someone who has always tried to bring in my own shapers to make sure the finished product looks just how I want, this is a new and less than perfect process. I believe the quality of the work will continue to improve as the crew gains more experience with the materials ... and as we gain more experience in how to direct them.
In the meantime, I'm sure that Pennard will be happy to take volunteer construction help from anyone who wants to pitch in!
Tom - Do you like the look of the eco-bunker?
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Tom,
At any point did Pennard consider abandoning the revetted bunkers in favor of a more natural look, like the old bunkers at St. Andrews, or even a combination of revetted and non-revetted bunkers similar to what you did at The Renaissance Club? If economics is the reasoning for the rework that would seem like a sensible long-term solution.
Also, has Woodhall Spa considered doing anything to the Bracken course? Admittedly, I didn't see it when I was there visiting and know very little about it. Is the land comparable to the Hotchkin?
Josh:
Pennard's additional concern regarding bunkers is that the property is a commons and there is a farmer grazing cows on it in the summer months. The cows can do enormous damage around the bunkers and they are hoping that the eco bunker will hold up better than anything else. This summer will be the first real test of that theory.
The Bracken course at Woodhall Spa is not part of my scope of work at present, so I did not even go and look around it on this trip. I was told it's built on much heavier soil than the Hotchkin, and that they have had trouble with the green contours changing over the years because the soil underneath is prone to heaving!
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Tom, are you indicating that St A, Muirfield and Renaissance are using eco-bunkering or just that the crews doing general revetting work at these courses are the best you've seen doing revetting work?
Only the latter. Sorry for any confusion.
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Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone? Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.
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I went to the Ballet again recently. I hardly ever go and I'm definitely not a connoisseur but it bugged the hell out of me that the music was pre-recorded. It was loud and perfect but it lacked the element of chance that things might go wrong. It had lost it's charm. No doubt its cheaper that way and as far as I could tell, I was the only one who even noticed.
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How many people are torn in their feelings about work being done at places like Pennard? When mention of safety I immediately wonder if holes 3/4 are on the chopping block. I understand why safety concerns need to be addressed if there is increased play, which is a good thing for revenue but a bad thing for the feel of the course.
I would have no problem if he were to get rid off those ridiculous artificial turf paths (cart?) at Pennard.
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Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone? Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.
The left side of #17 at Pennard [the last 100-150 yards going into the green] is completely overrun with gorse, that we will clear out. That will make a huge difference to that hole. It was a very cool second shot over the shoulder of the hill the first time I played it.
I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway. That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.
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Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone? Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.
The left side of #17 at Pennard [the last 100-150 yards going into the green] is completely overrun with gorse, that we will clear out. That will make a huge difference to that hole. It was a very cool second shot over the shoulder of the hill the first time I played it.
I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway. That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.
Knowing how to hit a fade off the tee is a big help on 18. Sounds like a good plan for 17, there has really been nowhere to hit your second in the past.
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I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway. That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.
Tom - whatever happens at Pennard...please try to convince the powers that be that the defined fairways the club has been going for in recent years is a disaster. The course looks far more natural in the pix below and more importantly...the course is far more forgiving. All the defined look did was introduce strangling rough.
Pennard's greens are much better than people realize..they are a very good set.
A look at the 18th green from the rear.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/Pennard2018th_zpsz3x8dywg.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/Pennard2018th_zpsz3x8dywg.jpg)
Glad to hear the crap on 17 will go, it was done before to great effect...about the same time they widened the tee shot out right by clearing a load of crap. Do you think sticking a bunker or two on that ridge would help send a message to keep the area clear? Below is a look at how narrow the approach is...plus one is playing to this area diagonally...more or less between two lost ball zones.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/28June2009140.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/28June2009140.jpg)
The bunkers that always bothered me are these two ::)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/28June2009074.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/28June2009074.jpg)
The bunkers on the left for 6 are dire as well...totally unnecessary and ugly.
Ciao
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Tom/Clyde,
Perhaps you could answer me this, how often did the club revett their bunkers ? I appreciate that the cows might make a difference but I wonder if these days clubs do it too often as they see new revetting every year at the Open and think that is the standard. If you like, the UK's version of the Augusta effect. Perhaps the thing to do is to persuade the R&A to purposely not do it to encourage clubs to let their bunkers go a few years longer. Just an idea.
Niall
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moved to other thread
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What are the advantages of revetted bunkers?
I've no idea about cost of maintenance, but I'd think that they leave a tough recovery if you end up near the face. An otherwise shallow bunker can prove more difficult with revets (sic.?)
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moved
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It's only a blast out with a SW if you end up at the face. If you have the good fortune to end up in the center you've a shot to the green. I suppose it penalizes the player who takes on a carry over a bunker and fails narrowly to pull off the shot more than it does the player who misjudges distances and allows a shot to run in. The latter (I've found, at least) will have a shot. This may depend on the firmness of the sand, but I think that links courses tend to have fluffier sand. (If that's a thing.)
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Jeff & JJ,
Personally I like the look of revetted faces generally however simple round pots become tedious fairly quickly. As with most things variety is the key. As for whether they are tougher to get out of than any other type of bunker, I'm not sure why the type of bunker face should matter that much. Surely it would be down to the angle of the face to the line of play, the steepness of the face, the height of the face and how much room there is in the bunker, which is why I liked the look of the changes in the photograph. Mind you I had assumed they were fairway bunkers but that might not be the case.
Niall
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With revetted bunkers (and otherwise constructed small size bunkers too) there is also the stance issue.
Unless you're pretty much in the middle of the bunker you're probably going to have to manufacture a shot using some kind of uneven one-foot-up, one-foot-down stance. A reasonable challenge IMO as bunker play generally has become too easy over the decades. They're supposed to be hazards after all so in relation to the Pennard bunker photgraphs posted by Eric above I'd rather see the two bunkers re-done with eco-bunker than one bigger bunker constructed.
Interesting comparison with Aberdovey's blow-out style Jeff. I like revetted but also happen to like the current Aberdovey style, but Aberdovey's bunkers are not large in size so they do present a proper challenge.
Question - players (idiots) have been known to scramble or climb up the face of a revetted bunker. What would happen to the eco-turfs in such a scenario? Would they hold up to such abuse? Should steps be installed?
Atb
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Question - players (idiots) have been known to scramble or climb up the face of a revetted bunker. What would happen to the eco-turfs in such a scenario? Would they hold up to such abuse? Should steps be installed?
Make them deep enough that they have to exit at the back.
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I think guys are confusing issues.
Revetted bunkers don't dictate size, depth and to some degree shape. Muirfield's bunkers vary.
1. Revetted bunkers serve to stabilize faces of deepish bunkers.
2. Large exposed areas make it easier for sand to be displaced (even for revetted bunkers) and often times this can be harmful to the turf. The depth of the bunker works to retain sand.
3. If built in more natural depressions, the smaller pot style bunkers (though the shape can alter dramatically) can actually be more gathering and thus less sand can be used to create hazards which effect greater acerage. In effect, this style, if done right and judicously, can save money without sacrificing hazard interest.
All that said, the Aberdovey bunkering is by far the most visually attractive of any new bunker job I have seen. They are quite low lying with tons of fingering going through them. BUT, if you go in one there is a good chance of terrible lie.
Ciao
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My experience at Pennard is that play is excessively slow with a full course. The reason was that on probably a majority of holes (at least it seemed so) you could not hit your drive, because there were players in front of you that were out of view. You had to wait until they walked up to the green, and came into view again before you could safely hit.
Can anything reasonable be done about that?
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I'm starting a new thread to hopefully move the discussion of bunker styles off this page and on to its own heading. I appreciate the interest in the topic, but it's too difficult to discuss these issues for my two new clients this early in the process.
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Tom,
Nice to see you on board. I absolutely love Pennard and it seems the kind of property that fits your eye and style.
If you desire any very lo cost consulting regarding restoration/stabilization of golf course follies I would like to apply after 40 years in the building business.
Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.
Ward
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Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.
Ward
Ward,
I'd have a tough time coming up with a more charming spot in my golf travels than at Pennard. I mean seriously with THIS as your first shot of the day how can anything else compare?! ;D
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/GCA/78DBB336-79D6-49E9-8566-8FCC642E03C5_zpsrvjfbcw7.jpg)
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Eric
The front of the 1st tee used to be a favourite grazing ground.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/30September2009221.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/30September2009221.jpg)
Ciao
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Tom,
Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.
Ward
Ward,
why would you even contemplate fertilising the fairways and rough?
Jon
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Jon
I think Wardo is really just thinking of getting decent fairways, however that is achieved. Pennard has long had issues with sparse growth on greens and fairways. I am not sure the site ever grew in properly once the rabbits were dealt with some 60 years ago. Prior to the 50s, Pennard was a sandy waste of a course much like we see in a few of the above pix. As Tom notes, expectations have changed and loose sand strewn about the place is no longer considered reasonable.
Ciao
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(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/30September2009221.jpg) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PENNARD/30September2009221.jpg)
No slur intended on the club where this photo was taken, but well fertilised grazing land is often found near clubhouses......I suspect it's due to the vast amount of bull$hit emanating from committee rooms and the like (sic!).
Atb
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When Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide was released, I did an interview [perhaps the very one on this forum, I'm not sure] where someone asked me what course I'd most like to restore, and I volunteered Bel Air.
As it turned out, there are several members of Bel Air whom I know, who saw that, and so I was asked to come and explain myself.
I would most like to restore Sunningdale New, Pine Valley and/or Commonwealth.
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Jon
I think Wardo is really just thinking of getting decent fairways, however that is achieved. Pennard has long had issues with sparse growth on greens and fairways. I am not sure the site ever grew in properly once the rabbits were dealt with some 60 years ago. Prior to the 50s, Pennard was a sandy waste of a course much like we see in a few of the above pix. As Tom notes, expectations have changed and loose sand strewn about the place is no longer considered reasonable.
Ciao
Sean,
in the UK in established fairways the solution to sparse cover is nearly always solved through insuring the soil is aerated and drained. Throwing fertiliser at it is always a bad practice in the long run. The greens are a matter of correct aeration and an appropriate feeding program. I suspect the loose sand has more to do with the grazing than sparse growth.
Jon
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Jon
As I wrote earlier, I think Wardo meant to get grass growing...not really fertilizing. Believe me, Pennard has no problem with drainage. The problem is retaining a sufficient amount of water to grow healthy grass. Its not really an issue for me because I have no problem moving the ball when times are very bad. The greens could be better. They nearly always roll better than they look, but are never remotely fast.
Ciao
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When Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide was released, I did an interview [perhaps the very one on this forum, I'm not sure] where someone asked me what course I'd most like to restore, and I volunteered Bel Air.
As it turned out, there are several members of Bel Air whom I know, who saw that, and so I was asked to come and explain myself.
I would most like to restore Sunningdale New, Pine Valley and/or Commonwealth.
I stuck to courses in Volume 2 with my answer. Who knows where I'll get hired once the next volume comes out? ;)
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I'm struck by the beauty (and finality) of simplicity.
On Pennard: 2 threads and a half-dozen pages of posts on a variety of related topics/issues/questions. On Bel Air: 2 posts. That's it. And why? I'd say because of this: "I've told them that my basic philosophy about the course will be to restore every feature back to the way it was in Thomas' day, unless there is a specific reason not to do something in particular." What's there more to say, or to ask?
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Jon
As I wrote earlier, I think Wardo meant to get grass growing...not really fertilizing. Believe me, Pennard has no problem with drainage. The problem is retaining a sufficient amount of water to grow healthy grass. Its not really an issue for me because I have no problem moving the ball when times are very bad. The greens could be better. They nearly always roll better than they look, but are never remotely fast.
Ciao
Sean,
I thought that 'Wardo' meant fertiliser because he said fertiliser however you might be correct. As for the greens, a big problem these days is players often do not look at how putting surfaces actually play but rather more on the colour. This is a problem that golf will have to address in the future. As for the speed, fast or slow is less important than if the speed is appropriate for the contours of the green.
Jon
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Thomas on the subject of the synthetic bunker revetting They've done one bunker on the 9th at St Enodoch and I'm undecided whether I like it or not. I can see the benefits of not having to redo it after several years.
And although it has a build up of algae it still stands out
Ben
My first post on Golf Club Atlas. The bunker on 9 at St Enodoc is indeed a synthetic revetment. This was built by the green staff at St Enodoc following a project carried out by 'DURAbunker' to renovate 3 bunkers on the practice area. I personally built the initial 3 bunkers with colleagues from the company I founded in 2014 'DURAbunker'. The club is now working with us to renovate bunkers on 'The Hollywell' course which contains some of the original holes that Braid designed. There is on going-discussion regarding the Church Course.
I think your comment regarding it standing out is absolutely right, however I think a newly built and prestine natural sod revetment would also stand out given that the majority of bunkers on The Church are a number of years past their last re-build date (or at least were the last time we visited). We have carried out synthetic revetment on a number of courses wall to wall, one thing is for sure, using this approach bunkers will be very consistent in look. The debate is whether this is a good thing or not and the answer I believe lies in the personal flavour of the individual and more importantly the natural surrounding landscape of the course.
The practical and economical reality though for courses such as St Enodoc and Royal North Devon just up the road, who we are also working with on a full course bunker renovation, sits under an entirely different light and has, certainly in more recent times, had to be taken into account when debating any change or renovation work.
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Ciao
I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.
The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!
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www.durabunker.com
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I think the synthetic revetting just looks too thin. You kinda need the turf to 2" thick and the astro turf is 3/4". But I suppose that's not really a sensible reason why not to like it.
Adrian
The question of thickness (or more accurately thinness) of the synthetic look is a really interesting one, some guys prefer thick others thin, Royal North Devon for example, who we are currently working with on a full course renovation prefer the thinner look, it's really a personal flavour.
I've tried attaching photo's but keep getting error message (will try again later) s of synthetic bunkers at Tennessee National (Greg Norman Design) some of which I built personally, using what we call the 'Double Stack' method which we used for the first time anywhere at St Enodoc a few weeks prior. The double stack look is probably more in line with the thickness of a traditional natural revetment.
The choice of materials to build traditional sod wall bunkers was very limited. So thick sod would have been harvested to carry out this task. As you rightly say there is no hard and fast rule about thickness of revetment and with the advent of newer construction materials the question of how we make bunker construction more sustainable is a 'natural' evolution. I'm a traditionalist and I love the look of a natural turf revetment, love it!! But for many courses it just isn't viable or sustainable, some are filling bunkers in, some are converting from revetted to roll in or sand splashed, in some cases I think that's a real shame.
As a footnote I believe we've spoken in the past when the original company I co-founded 'Envirosports' brought the product to market as 'Envirobunker'. Lots has happened since then with 2 new successor companies being formed 'DURAbunker' and 'Ecobunker' and this thread is proving very interesting reading for me personally!!
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Rhydian,
First off, welcome to the site. Good to see another member of the profession on here to keep us wannabees in check.
From a market point of view, do you see your product catching on in a big way on inland courses that wouldn't traditionally have used revetted bunkers too much if at all, or do you see it mainly see your business on traditional links ?
Niall
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The suggestion for altering the 5th bunker was mine. Even though Tom hadn’t had the opportunity to visit until last week, Pennard have been keen to push-on with things. Those two pots were very penal – both walking into them, and playing out. It seemed that extending the rear bunker a touch closer towards the tee, while also tapering it out slightly, with the remainder filled as a shallow hollow would help. That the green complex wasn’t original made the recommendation easier.
Apart from two days that I spent trying to get to grips with the ‘ecobunker’ at the start of the process back in October, neither of us have been on site to guide the details. These bunkers have lifespan of 20 years plus (no one really knows yet, of course)...bringing the cost savings, but locks things in from an artistic perspective! They plan on spreading the bunker work out of three years, tackling the most problematic ones this winter.
If the anticipated economics ring true, I wouldn’t be surprised to see quite a few more courses in the UK follow suit!
Clyde
There are a number of courses in the UK, Europe and US following suit either with 'Ecobunker' or 'DURAbunker', both are successor companies of the original company that brought the product to market as 'Envirobunker'. There are a variety of reasons these courses are making the move to synthetic but without a doubt the primary driver is cost and maintenance savings over the lifetime of the product.
Tom is absolutely right, we don't really know how long our synthetic bunkers will last but we do know that the research carried out on the material used suggests it will be 200 (two hundred years) before it begins to break down when buried. What's really obvious though is that the shaping and design work becomes even more important and crucial (if that were possible) and I write from a course just outside London where I am currently advising on the shaping work at the outset of a full course bunker renovation using synthetic bunkers edge (on an inland course). There are huge time savings to me made on edging work alone.
The difficulty as has been suggested, is that many clubs want to save on costs by getting their own staff to construct the bunkers (far more popular option here in UK than in rest of Europe and certainly the US). This means that we have a tough balancing act between supporting courses in this key aspect of the project (as well as others) and keeping costs within budget. Not easy!!
Even the most traditional of British Links such as Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!!) are now renovating all their bunkers using the synthetic method and whereas Pennard is working with Ecobunker, RNDGC is working with DURAbunker. Tiburon GC, Naples, Tennessee National GC, Medalist etc have all used synthetic bunkers working with one company or the other and there are now probably more inland courses than links working with synthetic edges so I hope for both companies sakes that the trend continues!! In the meantime I'll keep myself in check as I am accutely aware as a newbee on the forum that is exactly that a 'forum' though I will probably try to balance out some posts regarding the product and it's origins for the sake of clarity and balance.
Hope the work at Pennard goes well for you and Ecobunker.Rhydian,
First off, welcome to the site. Good to see another member of the profession on here to keep us wannabees in check.
From a market point of view, do you see your product catching on in a big way on inland courses that wouldn't traditionally have used revetted bunkers too much if at all, or do you see it mainly see your business on traditional links ?
Niall
Thanks for the welcome Niall - I love the site and have been following for some time so great to be part of it!!
I'm really aware of not abusing the forum in any way so I will tread carefully and answer questions as impartially as possible. The truth is when we first established the original company back in 2010 (Envirosports Ltd) we were aiming at Links courses, but as the product developed and we came up with a few different construction methods / designs and as we learnt more about some of the issues all courses were facing, it became apparent to us that inland courses could also benefit from the product. It was unfortunate that the original company split into two in 2014 but both successor companies have had success since that time and continue to grow.
I am currently writing from Winter Hill GC just outside London, a classic 'Inland / Parkland' course with gentle rolling landscape typical of many inland courses in the UK. We are using the product to edge bunkers along with our synthetic liner. The combination of liner (whichever type - we have worked with Capillary Concrete, Blinder Bunker Liner. BunkerMat etc) and synthetic edge forms what we call a 'Fully Sealed Bunker' with both base and edge taken care of and no points of weakness. As I just posted the savings on edging work alone are huge, our clients have done some analaysis on this facet alone and the numbers are really good reading for us. Added to that the fact that the bunkers on this course have excessive amounts of stone means sealing the edges as well as taking care of the base is critical. The argument from a design point of view is that revetment doesn't belong on a parkland course, Heathland yes, Parkland, maybe not so much. My own opionion is that by shaping and sizing bunkers appropriately and building a synthetic revetted 'edge' that seals the bunker rather than giving it a look of a links style revetment is perfectly acceptable on the majority of inland courses. At the risk of re-itteration, the reality for many of these courses dictates that they have to explore better and more sustainable methods of building bunkers and maybe a slight change of style is a very small price to pay, one that most average club members wouldn't even bat an eyelid at. Deep pot bunkers on an Parkland course, that's a little more debateable.
Clyde has made the point that there is maybe a limiting factor in terms of artistry which I understand but we are continually pushing the product and have built all styles and shapes of bunker with it and of course if you get it right another benefit is that the integrity of the design will not be compromised over time by natural erosion, animal damage, edging, general wear and tear etc. Some architects are really picking up on this, we work with Pierre Fulke in Sweden (former Ryder Cup Player) and have a project in the pipeline that will use the product on a style of bunker not yet tried, again on an inland course so it's continually evolving. Statistically I believe more inland courses than links courses have used the product (though of course the ratio is heavily in favour of inland courses). In fact we are in the process of renovating bunkers at a course called Frosaker Country Club in Sweden with Pierre where there are a number of pot bunkers. We are demolishing the pots and creat much bigger bunkers with sweeping sand faces and a revetted edge. Given the revetment is more than an 'Edge' in places but it is more of a hybrid between a links style and traditional parkland style which the owner loves.
I'm wary of posting photo's of our work on a forum and when I did try I got an error message anyway, maybe there was a message there!! Happy to try answering any questions though as subjectively as possible.
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An interesting trend that may have an impact here is that a number of architects have been constructing bunkers on inland courses with two or three layers of revet to form the edge in recent years. I know a couple of people who are quite pleased with this technique and look, and it would make perfect sense to use synthetic here.
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An interesting trend that may have an impact here is that a number of architects have been constructing bunkers on inland courses with two or three layers of revet to form the edge in recent years. I know a couple of people who are quite pleased with this technique and look, and it would make perfect sense to use synthetic here.
Do you like that look, Adam?
I think it a fine way of using less sod whilst creating an edge and allowing short grass with gathering contours to surround green side or centre line bunkering.
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Ciao
I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.
The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!
So...your partner putted above the hole chasing an eagle? If the result bothers you, avoid Ross courses at all costs 8)
Sure, there aren't many hole locations on 16, but does every green need more than 4?
Ciao
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I fear for Pennard's 16th green :'( I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.
Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2.
Ciao
I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.
The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!
So...your partner putted above the hole chasing an eagle? If the result bothers you, avoid Ross courses at all costs 8)
Sure, there aren't many hole locations on 16, but does every green need more than 4?
Ciao
The world needs more par 5's(and greens) like 16 at Pennard.
That green is very severe-agreed-I admit I was a bit confounded, but I also had a 5 iron for my second shot.Sounds easy, but unless shaped properly, it's not staying on the green.
But it is indeed the slope on the green that inspired the creativity of the shot Rhydian played in.
As Sean says, the poorly planned putt by your partner shouldn't invalidate the hole-Obviously the other team found a way to handle it ;)
If green speeds need to be kept down to create a reasonable challenge, all the better.
never understand why we want to dumb down the architecture (cost) to smart up the maintenance (more cost) to make greens easier/more homogonized.
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An article with Tom Doak on the current work taking place at Woodhall Spa:
http://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/2016/12/15/tom-doak-woodhall-spa-restoration/
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Great stuff,
I need to have another look soon and rethink my opinion.
Opening the course up should help a lot with what I felt was a lot of sameness on the back.
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Great stuff,
I need to have another look soon and rethink my opinion.
Opening the course up should help a lot with what I felt was a lot of sameness on the back.
Jeff
I was at Woodhall Spa last Sunday and was fortunate to have a discussion/tour with Tom about the changes on the whole course and also had a chat with the director of golf as well
There will be quite a lot of tree clearance work over the next few years and what I saw in the difference on hole 7 is astounding it is now a heathland paradise with the trees and gorse on the right being cleared out.
11,12 and 13 are in the process of being 'opened up' and returning to heathland character.
The current bunkers are hard to maintain and to get in. Toms crew are doing subtle changes with view of making it easier to maintain and get in by foot without losing a huge impact of the severity or deepness of the bunkers.
I am excited to see further changes in which I know will vastly improve Woodhall Spa and really bring back the heathland character of the original course and updating it to the modern game.
This is a classic example where you need a vastly experienced golf course architect to enhance, restore and renovate classic courses such as this.
Cheers
Ben
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Wow, it's not often one does a long interview like that and they print every word!
A quick shout-out to my crew: Eric Iverson and Brian Schneider and Angela Moser and Clyde Johnson tinkered with the shapes and faces of 35 bunkers on six holes in 8 1/2 days and made every one of them a bit better looking and/or easier to maintain. They were also pretty excited to spend time at such a great course; I'm sure it will give them some ideas for whatever new course we build next.
It's the first time any of us have worked on real heathland and we hope it's not the last.
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Wow, it's not often one does a long interview like that and they print every word!
A quick shout-out to my crew: Eric Iverson and Brian Schneider and Angela Moser and Clyde Johnson tinkered with the shapes and faces of 35 bunkers on six holes in 8 1/2 days and made every one of them a bit better looking and/or easier to maintain. They were also pretty excited to spend time at such a great course; I'm sure it will give them some ideas for whatever new course we build next.
It's the first time any of us have worked on real heathland and we hope it's not the last.
Great interview and write up by Dan Murphy who I would read his reports any day. Your guys are doing a great job and hope you can resolve the issue re holes 14 and 15 (which has a safety issue as Viking way runs across in the current landing area for most players plus the 14th green and 15th tee suffer being a wet clayish area which is different to the drier heathland area.
The 6th and 9th green seem to be old fashioned greens which tilt away to get water on the surface off naturally. Could Vardon or Colt been involved in those greens.
The long putts have been easy at Woodhall Spa but the short putts need more extra care as there are hidden subtle breaks
Look forward to seeing more of the work being carried out in the next few years and playing it when it is all done.
By the way you need to call Mike Clayton to bring his chainsaw out :)
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Woodhall Spa.
WS is somewhere I've not played but would like to. I've heard it has an extremely extensive short game practice area as well. Now with the work highlighted herein there's another reason to visit.
Seems like a very comprehensive interview/article. Fine photos as well. Any chance someone directly involved could post or link to some additional photos.
Pennard.
Any feedback yet on the revised approach to the revetted bunkering?
Atb
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Woodhall Spa.
WS is somewhere I've not played but would like to. I've heard it has an extremely extensive short game practice area as well. Now with the work highlighted herein there's another reason to visit.
Seems like a very comprehensive interview/article. Fine photos as well. Any chance someone directly involved could post or link to some additional photos.
Pennard.
Any feedback yet on the revised approach to the revetted bunkering?
Atb
The practice area is out of bounds for most of us - it is only used by academy players who pay and England National players.
I would recommend the 9 hole pitch and putt course by the clubhouse longest hole is around 60 yards its great fun though!