Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kirk on October 03, 2015, 10:05:28 PM
-
The purpose of this question is to highlight the importance of a course being a reasonable, enjoyable walk through the park.
Every golf course can be walked in theory, so an arbitrary line must be drawn between "walkable" and "unwalkable". Once again, I'll use Stone Eagle Golf Club as an example. I typically walk it once a year to prove I can do it. It has relatively short green to tee walks, but the terrain is steep, and requires a few walks through deep ravines. If I walk and play with purpose, it takes me three hours to play the course by myself. That gives me time to think about every shot, measure distances, and pull the flag out for putts. For the sake of argument, we will define Stone Eagle "unwalkable", as is any course that takes more than three hours to play alone (quickly).
Another good yardstick is The Walking Golfers Society "Walkability Ratings" chart. Anything that is rated RED is unwalkable. Rob Rigg's ratings aren't refined at this point, but they do a good job of identifying the unwalkable courses. Help him out if you have opinions.
http://thewalkinggolfer.com/twg_walkability_ratings
I shot my career lowest round at Stone Eagle on a day I walked the course with Peter Ferlicca six or eight years ago. It's a fantastic feeling to play golf when you're really sweating to get around the course. There's little or no tension to deal with, but you have to hit shots while breathing hard, a unique challenge. Last year, during my yearly walk, I also shot my best or second best round of the year.
What do you think is the greatest unwalkable golf course? For many players the question is moot, as they regularly play the game in golf carts. For a cart player, the transitions between holes, and the severity of the terrain, is less relevant to one's evaluation of enjoyment. However, I would still argue that no unwalkable course exists that earns a consensus rating of greater than 7 on the typical Doak scale.
Doak 7 - "An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf."
Doak 8 - "One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout."
In my opinion, all unwalkable designs should be downgraded at least one category. For the best of these designs, the limit so far is 7. If you disagree, please cite an unwalkable course where the quality of golf holes and general ambience deserve a rating higher than 7. Ultimately, the limiting factor may actually be quality of golf shots limited by severe terrain, rather than the fact the course is too hard to reasonably walk.
-
For me, the first one that comes to mind is Ballyhack - I'm a big fan of the course and I think it straddles the line between a Doak 7 and a Doak 8. Call it a Doak 7.5.
-
Thanks, Jon. I visited and toured Ballyhack while it was under construction, but I never came back to play it. An imaginative and complex design by Lester George.
-
John:
Having had my memory refreshed by the Michigan Rankings thread, another candidate for me would be Greywalls in northern Michigan. I loved that place, and I can't imagine anyone being crazy enough to walk that course.
I'm very much a dedicated walker, but one thing that Ballyhack and Greywalls both prove is that without carts, we'd be missing out on some damn fine courses.
-
Probably not the greatest, but certainly the most unwalkable......1,365 km!
http://www.kalgoorlie.com/nullarborlinks/
-
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.
WW
-
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.
WW
Wade:
I've also walked Ballyhack, and it is doable. But I think you'd agree that the significant majority of people who play there don't (and frankly, probably can't) walk those hills.
Anyway, my intent was more to point out the merits of the golf course than ding it for its walking difficulty. I think it's an outstanding course, whether on foot or in a cart. I raved about the place from the first time I played it: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html
-
Isn't Stone Eagle unwalkable?
-
Although it's not great course we decided to walk The Eisenhower course at Industry Hills back in the 80's. This Doak 4 was literally built on a mountain of trash. It was in the spring and we were not really expecting what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. We made it through the front nine only to find out that the funicular designed to ferry carts up the steep hill between nines was out of order! We had to climb the goat trail literally a 60 degree ascent to the halfway house. That was a climb I'll never forget. We spent the next half hour recovering in the halfway house, which incidentally was the railway car which carried Churchhills coffin to its final resting place.
Surely a day I'll never forget. As you may remember we were going to walk Stone Eagle the day we played together but your knee was not cooperating that day. Hopefully we'll get the chance to try it again some day!
I wish we had attempted to walk Sagebrush during the King's Putter, that would be my nomination for greatest unwalkable.
-
Isn't Stone Eagle unwalkable?
I was trying to say Stone Eagle is an example of an unwalkable course. Although I walk it once a year, it is very difficult, and I am typically very tired afterwards.
I was also trying to say that Stone Eagle satisfies the requirement of a Doak 7 golf course, though there is significant disagreement as its merits. I'm biased, but I think it's a contender for "greatest unwalkable golf course."
-
Just to be clear John, are you talking unwalkable while carrying your own bag, or unwalkable period (even with a trolley or caddie)?
The best course that I have played recently that was borderline unwalkable was Black Forest. The property is expansive and hilly, with a few legit hikes between holes. What put it over the top for me though was the mile+ hike back to my car after the 18th hole.
-
Although it's not great course we decided to walk The Eisenhower course at Industry Hills back in the 80's. This Doak 4 was literally built on a mountain of trash. It was in the spring and we were not really expecting what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. We made it through the front nine only to find out that the funicular designed to ferry carts up the steep hill between nines was out of order! We had to climb the goat trail literally a 60 degree ascent to the halfway house. That was a climb I'll never forget. We spent the next half hour recovering in the halfway house, which incidentally was the railway car which carried Churchhills coffin to its final resting place.
Surely a day I'll never forget. As you may remember we were going to walk Stone Eagle the day we played together but your knee was not cooperating that day. Hopefully we'll get the chance to try it again some day!
I wish we had attempted to walk Sagebrush during the King's Putter, that would be my nomination for greatest unwalkable.
Pete,
Played the Eisenhauer course many times. No way that would be an enjoyable course to walk.
-
Just to be clear John, are you talking unwalkable while carrying your own bag, or unwalkable period (even with a trolley or caddie)?
The best course that I have played recently that was borderline unwalkable was Black Forest. The property is expansive and hilly, with a few legit hikes between holes. What put it over the top for me though was the mile+ hike back to my car after the 18th hole.
Hey Jason,
I would say you must walk and manage your own clubs, so either pack a bag or push/pull a trolley.
Kingsley Club is a course where carrying a bag is significantly easier than using a trolley. Kingsley pushes the limits of the "walkable" definition. Rob Rigg probably has it as a YELLOW course, but I'd rate it AMBER.
Pete,
I think I walked Sagebrush when we were up there. I can't remember. Nice course, with the best yurt in golf.
-
John:
Having had my memory refreshed by the Michigan Rankings thread, another candidate for me would be Greywalls in northern Michigan. I loved that place, and I can't imagine anyone being crazy enough to walk that course.
I'm very much a dedicated walker, but one thing that Ballyhack and Greywalls both prove is that without carts, we'd be missing out on some damn fine courses.
I walked and played Greywalls a couple of years ago [and carried my own bag!], playing with Brian Schneider and their superintendent. It was a hike to get up to #5 fairway and #6 tee, and then again to get up to #8 green, but after we got past there it wasn't difficult at all. I was not exhausted after the round.
For that matter, I played Stone Eagle in February with my client from Tara Iti [who is a member there] and two of his partners ... all of them age 65+ but in good shape, and all three of them walked the course. It is not so hard to do with a caddie.
I do agree with the premise of John's thread; I don't like to design courses that aren't walkable, as I think it detracts greatly from the overall experience. Stone Eagle was the best we could do for walkability with the site we had. The only really long walk is from #6 to #7 ... we just needed #6 to be a short par-4 for the overall length of the course, and once we found the hole we decided we had to build it there even if it made the walk harder, since not many members were actually going to walk anyway.
-
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?
-
I used to work at a golf course owned and run by the Maryland national capital park and planning commission in High School. It gave me access to all the courses they owned in the public parks in Montgomery County. The most interesting and hardest golf course was Little Bennett. It was built into the side of a Mountain and a near impossible walk. I loved that course though.
-
How is any course unwalkable? There are undoubtedly difficult walks, but unwalkable?
-
Nothing is unwalkable
It's whether the walks between are worth the golf. There's a point where I'd rather play something less dramatic than something spectacular and disjointed
The entire journey is part of the experience.
-
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?
Yes, without question. A walkable course means you should never need transportation.
-
the first that spring to mind for me would be some of the Nz courses I've played ( although I walked them all) Kauri cliffs is an utter brute to get round. it certainly must be one of the best courses in the region but probably doesn't get unanimous 8s. jacks point and kinloch are also great hikes that take well over 3 hours on my own.. I would score them at least 8 but maybe I get too influenced by the scenery!
-
I do walk Ballyhack sometimes. The front nine isn't so bad. I will take a cart and park it at nine green and walk from there. The back nine is a tad harder to walk. As for places I wouldn't walk: Black Rock and Sanctuary come to mind.
-
Would courses such as Stone Eagle and Ballyhack (I have not yet played either) become significantly more walkable with the construction of a few walking bridges?
-
Are their high altitude courses that are great but difficult walks? Banff??
I might add in this category comfortable and reasonable walks for people of a variety of ages. Also, do you carry & walk or push a cart?
-
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.
WW
Wade, Tommy et al,
For me to walk & carry, Ballyhack would be ok (I think), until the 11th hole ... after that, I would be a whipped puppy. The climbs on the back nine to up to the tees for 14, 15, 16, 17 (and then the walk around, down and up to the 17th green would be exceedingly rough for me after all that).
I am in camp that believes that walking is the best way to experience the course which is why I am:
-going to the gym 3 times a week at age almost 62, getting on treadmill w/ 20 pounds on my back, cranking up the difficulty and doing that for 15 minutes
-reducing the number of clubs in my bag to 11
-reducing the number of all other items in the bag to the bare minimum even down to tees and ball markers
..... will see how this works out in a few months
at the Dixie Cup, I was dragging on hole 7, steepest hole on the course, (16th hole as we started at 10) at Lookout Mountain.
-
Would courses such as Stone Eagle and Ballyhack (I have not yet played either) become significantly more walkable with the construction of a few walking bridges?
Two issues prevent the construction of such bridges at Ballyhack (and other places): permitting and cost.
Bridges on eleven and seventeen would help a lot, but I can't imagine how much they would cost. I'm sure Lester knows.
That doesn't mitigate the walk from eight green to nine tee, from nine green to ten tee, or from thirteen green to fourteen tee.
Recall that Lester has said, many times, that he had a choice on Ballyhack's terrain: Build a walking golf course or build the best golf course he could.
WW
-
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?
Yes, without question. A walkable course means you should never need transportation.
GCA - The only place in the world where people will travel thousands of miles by air and automobile to reach places like the Sandhills, the Oregon coast, or King Island, and then bitch about taking a 200 yard shuttle to the first tee.
-
Two issues prevent the construction of such bridges at Ballyhack (and other places): permitting and cost.
Bridges on eleven and seventeen would help a lot, but I can't imagine how much they would cost. I'm sure Lester knows. .....
WW
Wade & et al,
Cart capable bridges would be at a minimum of $200k each. The real difficulty would be getting a crane to the locations.
-
If Jud Tigerman could walk and carry at Kingsley it sure as heck isn't amber.
I love Ballyhack and Greywalls and think both are in that 7.5-8 range and would agree they both meet John Kirk's definition. Both can be walked and certainly are walked but it would be a stretch to do it with regularity unless one is quite fit. (I.e. Sweet T)
-
Rock Creek is a tough walk...
-
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?
Yes, without question. A walkable course means you should never need transportation.
Well, to be totally badass you should walk from your home to the course.
Totally agree with BHack as a nominee. I'd also suggest Royal New Kent (orig course prior to back nine desecration) as a contender. Tobacco Rd would qualify in some books but I'm not sure that's really unwalkable.
-
Kingsley has a couple of tough climbs. The walk up the first half of the 1st fairway, and between the 12th green to 13th tee. In particular, it's best not to walk directly from the south 9th tee to the green. The climb to the 9th green is a heartbreaker. Best to stay on the high ground and walk around.
I don't think it's fair to discredit courses that require a shuttle/cart to the golf course. A long distance between nine hole loops is perhaps more significant violation of the walkabilty. On the other hand, a course like Kinloch in Virginia regularly shuttles players and their caddies between nine hole loops (estimate 500-600 yards, a scenic journey along the lake), but otherwise a very high percentage of players walk.
Perhaps a better indication is the percentage of players who walk the course.
When I've posed this question to friends, Kapalua Plantation course has been mentioned more than once as a great course that is very difficult to walk.
At Stone Eagle, a bridge over the ravine on the 14th hole would eliminate 200-300 yards of walking. Similarly, a bridge over the 13th fairway would save a couple hundred yards of down and up. It's not worth the expense, though. So few people walk the course.
-
John,
I agree with Kapalua.
Kiawah Ocean has a shuttle that takes you from 9th green to 10th tee.
-
I live in the DC area and Little Bennett is walkable, but no fun to walk. That's how I'd define "unwalkable" anyway. Anything is technically walkable, but if the walk detracts from your ability to enjoy the course....
-
John,
I agree with Kapalua.
Kiawah Ocean has a shuttle that takes you from 9th green to 10th tee.
The Kiawah shuttle is for pace of play given that they are a resort course. That walk is quite flat and easy to do.
-
To me, its not a question of unwalkable, but enhanced enjoyment of the game and course for a good walk. Three of the best courses I have played where I think the walk negatively impacts the design and detracts from the enjoyment are
Tobacco Road
Dormie Club
Trump Aberdeen
I still think Trump Aberdeen is great, just not my bag...new tees without so much regard for views and championship play would help out the enjoyability of the game.
Dormie Club's issues are solvable at least to the point where the walk isn't a negative...if they did so I think the course would be great.
Tobacco Road is just screwed and will never be great unless they go for a bit of a routing change.
Ciao
-
I struggle to come up with any that i consider unwalkable. But using John's explanation in post #1, Highland Links comes to mind. We walked it without issue. It felt more like a subtle backpacking day with some golf shots in between. But the place is so beautiful, Im not sure we thought much about getting tired or not.
-
I struggle to come up with any that i consider unwalkable. But using John's explanation in post #1, Highland Links comes to mind. We walked it without issue. It felt more like a subtle backpacking day with some golf shots in between. But the place is so beautiful, Im not sure we thought much about getting tired or not.
Noooooooo! I think Highlands may be the greatest walk in golf!
-
I've always thought of "unwalkable" courses as being of two types - those that are are tough walk due to climbing and descending and those that have such long distances between greens and tees that if I'm playing with someone in a cart, I become a drag on the game. Ballyhack is in the first camp but it's walkable for someone who's reasonably fit. RNK is in the second, along with so many courses sited in residential communities.
Sean - I agree that TR has a problem but it's only on the back 9 and could be helped by at least one fix that's been suggested but ultimately rejected by the owner. And early in its history, Dormie Club was much more walkable with maintained paths created as shortcuts - e.g. on the right of the wetlands on #2 and through the wetlands via a path and stone pavers on #15. The increased use of carts led to their demise and they're no longer maintained. Otherwise, I think the course is very walkable
-
I struggle to come up with any that i consider unwalkable. But using John's explanation in post #1, Highland Links comes to mind. We walked it without issue. It felt more like a subtle backpacking day with some golf shots in between. But the place is so beautiful, Im not sure we thought much about getting tired or not.
Noooooooo! I think Highlands may be the greatest walk in golf!
I agree Adam, but some would consider it borderline unwalkable.
-
I struggle to come up with any that i consider unwalkable. But using John's explanation in post #1, Highland Links comes to mind. We walked it without issue. It felt more like a subtle backpacking day with some golf shots in between. But the place is so beautiful, Im not sure we thought much about getting tired or not.
Noooooooo! I think Highlands may be the greatest walk in golf!
I agree Adam, but some would consider it borderline unwalkable.
I really don't think so. It's a _long_ walk, and I couldn't see too many doing a 36 hole day there, but there isn't anything especially difficult about it.
-
Sean - I agree that TR has a problem but it's only on the back 9 and could be helped by at least one fix that's been suggested but ultimately rejected by the owner. And early in its history, Dormie Club was much more walkable with maintained paths created as shortcuts - e.g. on the right of the wetlands on #2 and through the wetlands via a path and stone pavers on #15. The increased use of carts led to their demise and they're no longer maintained. Otherwise, I think the course is very walkable
Craig
Yes, if a new par 3 came in after 12 to replace the 17th, The Road would be far better. That said, there is still a long walk between 9s...and several tees are an uncomfortable distance from greens. Think of 2 to 3, 3 to 4, 5 to 6. Throw in the roads etc on the back 9 and it all up makes for a very disjointed game of golf. For me, the holes are good enough to be great, the routing/walk is not.
I also agree that paths/boardwalks and perhaps a bridge would make Dormie a far better experience.
Ciao
-
I actually did several lists in the back of Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide listing the best and worst courses with various degrees of unwalkability. Can't remember exactly how I broke it down now, and I don't have the book handy as I'm traveling today. I'll come back to it in a day or two.
-
Nothing is unwalkable
...
I guess you would be correct if you allow multiple days to walk the course with death by heat stroke one of the acceptable dangers.
Nullarbor Links certainly is not walkable in daylight hours of a single day. ;)
-
I recall that at some point in the past Dormie had a plan for wetland development right transfer/buyout to provide suitable walking paths across the environmentally sensitive areas. But it required funds. Perhaps in the future.
I enjoy the walk there even with the roundabouts as there is seldom anyone there that I might hold up.
-
My break point for walkable vs unwalkable is likely more severe than most. I consider any course where the walk itself makes me want to take a cart more than 50% of my rounds as a poor walk. And that would likely garner it an unwalkable rating in my book. For that reason, Kingsley and Stone Eagle tie as the best unwalkable golf courses I've ever played.
That's personal preference of course. And it's also why any course where I'd take a cart more than 50% of my rounds could be no higher than a Doak 7.
-
My break point for walkable vs unwalkable is likely more severe than most. I consider any course where the walk itself makes me want to take a cart more than 50% of my rounds as a poor walk. And that would likely garner it an unwalkable rating in my book. For that reason, Kingsley and Stone Eagle tie as the best unwalkable golf courses I've ever played.
That's personal preference of course. And it's also why any course where I'd take a cart more than 50% of my rounds could be no higher than a Doak 7.
Hi Ben,
I must say I am a little surprised that you would prefer a cart at Kingsley upwards of 50% of the time. It certainly isn't a cupcake walk, but I've found many courses much more severe. I'm not trying to be critical, just a little surprised.
Maybe I just need to get out more, but I haven't played many courses that I consider great that are essentially unwalkable. Old Silo in KY is a very tough walk, but I think that "great" is a bit of a stretch. I think it is very good, and frankly there are only a couple of spots that are extreme. However, they are very extreme and they can't be ignored.
-
The east course at Kau Sai Chau in Hong Kong would be an extremely tough walk. Even the golf carts found some of the climbs tough going
-
Are their high altitude courses that are great but difficult walks? Banff??
I might add in this category comfortable and reasonable walks for people of a variety of ages. Also, do you carry & walk or push a cart?
Sir,
Contrary to popular belief, Banff is only ~3,000 ft ASL. The courses on I-64 in Colorado near Vail though are a different story. I have played in Palm Springs in summer and would argue that temperatures in excess of 115 degrees not only make a course unwalkable, but also extremely hazardous (even if you can carry around a gallon water).
-
Blackwolf Run - River is a highly rated course and I wouldn't want to walk it and lug my clubs around; the course itself is fine but there some massive distances between a few holes, with serious inclines.
Tot Hill Farm is another, though it's not Great.
-
Nothing is unwalkable
...
I guess you would be correct if you allow multiple days to walk the course with death by heat stroke one of the acceptable dangers.
Nullarbor Links certainly is not walkable in daylight hours of a single day. ;)
Nullabor Links is not a real golf course
-
Sagebrush would be in the competition...
it is a polarizing course (the "fairway / green / 2-putt" player might not like) ... but I think the open-minded player loves it.. it's a very fun and unique course where you play shots you'll never play anywhere else... it's a very severe walk, mainly because of 2 or 3 climbs between holes but there are a lot of close green and tees
-
I know lots of bad cart-only courses but there are few great "long walk" courses.
Here are some from the Golfweek list:
Royal New Kent- best new course back in 1996. Long distances between greens and tees.
Pelican Hill, Fazio in Newport Beach, CA.
The Prince, Princeville (not sure if this one is still open)
Wolf Creek, Mesquite, NV
-
I second Kapalua. I walked most of it while the Mrs. was driving the cart. There were a few places on jumped on as the distances between holes ( and the downhill on 18) weas pretty severe from tee to landing area.
-
To throw out another course in the West....Sanctuary.
As one of Jim Engh's original courses it has some fantastic holes, but the course itself would be an absolute brute to walk!!
-
Kalen, I'll agree with you on Sanctuary, and the same can be said of Engh's Pradera. Many people do walk at Pradera, but it's a bit of a hoof. This is an issue with a lot of mountain/front range courses, though certainly not all. Just depends on the property, and the architect, of course.
There's a Jay Moorish course south and west of Denver called Ravenna that is bisected by a ridge of rock that around here is called a hogback. The ninth hole is a dropshot par 3 with the tee up high on the hogback. Traversing that hill is a nasty bit of business with a cart, especially the downhill bits, and walking it with a bag would not be fun. With people around who regularly bike 60 miles a day and the like, I'm sure there are those who walk the course, but most would not. Perhaps for members they have a shuttle cart available just for that part, as the rest of the course wouldn't be a brutal walk. "Unwalkable" is a pretty high standard, although with my fat butt and knee problems, a lot of courses around here fit that description right now........
-
While it might be possible to walk the Ocean Course at Cabo Del Sol I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do so. There are a few long walks and some steep climbs better experienced on a cart.
I prefer that course to anything I have seen mentioned so far.
-
Sutton Bay - that was a good course but impossible to walk.
-
John,
I agree with Kapalua.
Kiawah Ocean has a shuttle that takes you from 9th green to 10th tee.
The Kiawah shuttle is for pace of play given that they are a resort course. That walk is quite flat and easy to do.
While the walk is flat, it's about 1/2 mile. I don't think the fact that it's a resort course is why they have a shuttle; many courses (private and public) would run a shuttle with that long a walk in the middle of the round.
-
... but I think the open-minded player loves it...
Perhaps if the open-minded person is a straight hitter with enough carry on his tee shots. Otherwise, not.