Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: BCowan on October 03, 2015, 09:02:04 PM
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1. Crystal Downs (12 votes)
2. Orchard lake CC (7 votes)
3. Greywalls (3 votes)
4. Oakland Hills (South) (10 votes)
5. Franklin Hills (8 votes)
6. Kingsley Club (14 votes)
7. Battle Creek (6 votes)
8. Forest Dunes (11 votes)
9. Indianwood (old) (12 votes)
9. University of Michigan GC (14 votes)
11. Muskegon CC (2 votes)
12. Arcadia Bluffs (12 votes)
13. Lost Dunes (6 votes)
14. CC of Detroit (6 votes)
15. Belvedere (8 votes)
16. Radrick Farms (10 votes)
17. Grosse Ile (6 votes)
18. Barton Hills (9 votes)
19. Oakland Hills (North) (6 votes)
20. Lakewood Shores (Gailes) (5 votes)
21. Plum Hollow (6 votes)
22. Bloomfield Hills (5 votes)
23. Pilgrims Run (4 votes)
24. Point O Woods (4 votes)
25. The Mines (3 votes)
The list was made by 15 Michigan GCAers. 3 from SW Michigan, 1 UPer, and 10 SE Michigan, 1 Central. Just used averages and nothing was thrown out. Course needs 2 votes to be on the list. Hope to complete a Michigan regional Gems list by the end of next year. Hope this produces more trips from our Michiganders to play ones on list they haven't played. It's just as fun to start at the bottom and work your way up. Remember some of these need more plays and others need to see course after good and bad work have been done to them.
2016 list requirements for voting. 10 courses Played from 2015 list. Course must be played by 3 different voters to be eligible to be rated in top 25. Must have played 5 courses listed in 2015 top 10 to be eligible to vote. Have to live in Michigan.
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Kingsley is behind U of Michigan? Do they not bump for being private?
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I haven't played much golf in Michigan, but I can say that this the most unique rankings list I've seen regarding the courses there.
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I'd love to see the arguments supporting Plum Hollow as a, say, top 50 course in Michigan.
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I'm not a Michigander, but I've played about a dozen courses in the state. I like the list, but since these things are made for discussion, I have to ask:
I know how some people around here feel about Arcadia Bluffs, but is that really not a top 25 in the state? For me anyway, it's a hell of a lot better than Point O Woods.
Also, no Dunes Club? Did that get disqualified for only having 9 holes?
In any event, as this list shows, Michigan really does have a ton of great golf. Looking forward to visiting next week.
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Arcadia Bluffs, Pilgrims Run and Tullymore should be on the list. Several of those on the list aren't even the best course in their county.
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If this list is one put together by a group of individuals, and it reflects their personal preference, why is the reaction invariably that it is incorrect or incomplete? Why the constant focus on rankings? And why does anyone care whether a particular course is included on another's list? ::)
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I'm not a Michigander, but I've played about a dozen courses in the state. I like the list, but since these things are made for discussion, I have to ask:
I know how some people around here feel about Arcadia Bluffs, but is that really not a top 25 in the state? For me anyway, it's a hell of a lot better than Point O Woods.
Also, no Dunes Club? Did that get disqualified for only having 9 holes?
In any event, as this list shows, Michigan really does have a ton of great golf. Looking forward to visiting next week.
Uh yeah, I have played a lot of really good golf courses, particularly in the last 4 years and I would be stunned if Arcadia Bluffs is not in the Top 25 in the state.
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I'm not a Michigander, but I've played about a dozen courses in the state. I like the list, but since these things are made for discussion, I have to ask:
I know how some people around here feel about Arcadia Bluffs, but is that really not a top 25 in the state? For me anyway, it's a hell of a lot better than Point O Woods.
Also, no Dunes Club? Did that get disqualified for only having 9 holes?
In any event, as this list shows, Michigan really does have a ton of great golf. Looking forward to visiting next week.
I hope it warms up. It was a balmy 54 degrees with a wind chill of about 40 here in Hevansville today!
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I'm not a Michigander, but I've played about a dozen courses in the state. I like the list, but since these things are made for discussion, I have to ask:
I know how some people around here feel about Arcadia Bluffs, but is that really not a top 25 in the state? For me anyway, it's a hell of a lot better than Point O Woods.
Also, no Dunes Club? Did that get disqualified for only having 9 holes?
In any event, as this list shows, Michigan really does have a ton of great golf. Looking forward to visiting next week.
I hope it warms up. It was a balmy 54 degrees with a wind chill of about 40 here in Hevansville today!
Compared to what I played in today, that's paradise.
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If this list is one put together by a group of individuals, and it reflects their personal preference, why is the reaction invariably that it is incorrect or incomplete? Why the constant focus on rankings? And why does anyone care whether a particular course is included on another's list? ::)
Brian - maybe because the "group of individuals" who put this list together also care/focus on rankings, and in fact probably care more than the posters who've so far responded (none of whom have felt the need to publish their own ratings/rankings.) This list has been posted here precisely because "personal preference" isn't enough for them; if it was enough, they'd have kept their personal/private list, well, private. (In other words, to answer your question "why" -- because they were asking for it! :) ) But heck, why not? I guess one way to lessen the perceived influence of the 'major' rankings (GD, Golf Magazine, Golf Week) is to keep posting your own, and thus promote the courses you want to promote. The sad part for me is: I was looking forward to playing Greywalls and Belvedere one summer, but now that I'm told they are only the 9th and 14th best in the state, forget it!!
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Who were the 8, and what was the methodology?
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The Mines is a fun track, but to suggest it is better than Arcadia is kind of a joke.
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If there are 18 courses better than Barton Hills there's essentially no reason to ever leave the state.
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OK Ben … no Port Huron Golf Club….. no Black River? I know I'm hopelessly prejudiced! They much be best in their county!
Cedar River doesn't get much credit. IMO very good even with a couple quirky holes. I think the quirks are fine too play.
I agree with Jud
Tony
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I think a state of Michigan ranking is a cool idea. Although the state only has a couple marquee courses as compared to some other states, I think the depth beyond the top 10 or so is as good as anywhere and particularly on the public side.
I don't agree with a whole lot of this list. Admittedly though, while I've played over 100 courses in Michigan my SE Michigan resume is short and this list reflects a large SE Michigan bias.
It would be fun for these 8 guys to venture out into the state more and for me to spend more time in SE MI so we could compare down the road.
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8) You should get the Dallas Morning News raters up there... they'd probably include some Dallas courses... errr more Detroit courses..
really should divide things up public & private, the Mines is public and would move up against its peers but really ... I can't see Belvedere above ForestDunes or the Mines above Black Forest
and how about a NLE ranking with Highpointe, now a Hops farm
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Steve,
I'd rank those in the following order:
Belvedere
Forest Dunes
Mines
Black Forest
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Steve,
I'd rank those in the following order:
Belvedere
Forest Dunes
Mines
Black Forest
Yeah. Me too. I am struggling to give this list any credibility. It is a conglomerate of 8 people so the outlier opinions should be mitigated. BUT .....
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Not sure what all the fuss is about. Every Michigan course Golfweek lists except for Arcadia and Dunes is represented...thats 13 of 15 courses. It doesn't seem like the other ten are crazy choices...though I thought there should be room for Lakewood Shores.
Ciao
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Here is how Michigan courses rated/ranked in the unofficial GCA rankings in 2009:
Course Ranking Ave Score
Crystal Downs 13 9.1
Kinglsey 54T 7.8
OH South 85T 7.5
Franklin Hills 85T 7.5
Lost Dunes 191 6.7
Arcadia Bluffs 211 6.6
Point O'Woods 224 6.5
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Steve,
I'd rank those in the following order:
Belvedere
Forest Dunes
Mines
Black Forest
Yeah. Me too. I am struggling to give this list any credibility. It is a conglomerate of 8 people so the outlier opinions should be mitigated. BUT .....
Bart,
I applaud their effort and think it is a worthy cause. The problem is the depth they will find in the 10-25 spots. There are probably 40+ candidates for those 15 spots so they'll need to have a panel/group who has seen several courses. They very well could have such a panel now and if so, I'll need to see more SE courses to be able to agree or disagree. The absence of Dunes Club, Arcadia Bluffs, Tullymore, Lakewood Shores Gailes and a few others raises a flag for me but again, SE could be that deep.
In any event, It will be fun to see this develop and hopefully add some input.
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I am struggling to give this list any credibility. It is a conglomerate of 8 people so the outlier opinions should be mitigated. BUT .....
Well if you struggle to give this list credibility, then I guess that means it must be wrong. Give me a break.
I don't know if this list is "correct" or not, but why does that means it lacks credibility?
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Brian
Because there is no explanation of how the list was compiled or what criteria were used to create the rankings. It also doesn't match my experience with the courses involved or with other people's opinions that I know and respect.
I didn't say it was wrong. It might be right if the courses were rated by a certain set of criteria. But they haven't explained how the courses were evaluated.
I don't have to find it credible for others to find it so. I claim no ability to speak for anyone but myself.
Bart
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8) SO WHO ARE THE GCA PANELISTS?
AND WHAT IS THE SOMETHING THEY ARE REALY RATING?
... AND ARE LISTENING TO AND SINGING COUNTRY MUSIC TUNES WHILE PLAYING?
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Brian
Because there is no explanation of how the list was compiled or what criteria were used to create the rankings. It also doesn't match my experience with the courses involved or with other people's opinions that I know and respect.
I didn't say it was wrong. It might be right if the courses were rated by a certain set of criteria. But they haven't explained how the courses were evaluated.
I don't have to find it credible for others to find it so. I claim no ability to speak for anyone but myself.
Bart
I just don't accept that any list can be "right" or "wrong" regardless of the criteria. Ranking courses is inherently subjective.
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guys,
We are re-working the list. We wanna get everything just exactly perfect...
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Based on what I can tell all these guys are WWWD's. World wide walking dudes. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
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Based on what I can tell all these guys are WWWD's. World wide walking dudes. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Jaba,
Only 4 of the 9 are in TWGS ;) . You should be happy that no raters were allowed in making this list.
Jones,
PM me your list since we don't have enough West siders on it. Have you played Muskegon, Greywalls, Diamond Springs, and Black Forest?
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Based on what I can tell all these guys are WWWD's. World wide walking dudes. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Jaba,
Only 4 of the 9 are in TWGS ;) . You should be happy that no raters were allowed in making this list.
Jones,
PM me your list since we don't have enough West siders on it. Have you played Muskegon, Greywalls, Diamond Springs, and Black Forest?
25 years on the West Side, family still resides. I also think that Wuskowhan could make a visit to the list.
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I've played all but two of these courses, and I'd suggest that the Gailes, Pilgrim's Run, and Treetops (Smith Signature) be considered.
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Based on what I can tell all these guys are WWWD's. World wide walking dudes. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Jaba,
Only 4 of the 9 are in TWGS ;) . You should be happy that no raters were allowed in making this list.
Jones,
PM me your list since we don't have enough West siders on it. Have you played Muskegon, Greywalls, Diamond Springs, and Black Forest?
25 years on the West Side, family still resides. I also think that Wuskowhan could make a visit to the list.
Tony,
Send me ur list. Anyone else who has lived in michigan send me there's prefer non se mich.
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Hi Ben.
I can't speak to MI private courses other than Pine Lake CC which is nothing special but I've played most of the better public and resort courses in the state. Here are some favorites, in no order:
Belvedere
Forest Dunes
Lakewood Shores Gailes
Lochenheath
Boyne Donald Ross Memorial
Black Forest
Thousand Oaks
Treetops Smith
Cedar River
Of those, my top 3 are Gailes, Ross Memorial and Forest Dunes.
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I can't believe I read no mention of Wuskowhan Players Club.
It might not be top 5, but it is top 10 for sure.
http://wuskowhan.com/
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I can't believe I read no mention of Wuskowhan Players Club.
It might not be top 5, but it is top 10 for sure.
http://wuskowhan.com/ (http://wuskowhan.com/)
Ian, rest,
We will have the finished list by wed hopefully . Thanks to peter for sending me his list. Ian, 2 people are required to play a course to make the list, we will sure to include it in not enough plays for consideration. Tony and jones or anyone else not in se mich send me ur list please.
Lastly, everyone just relax
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Thanks, Ben.
Lists are weird. I remember reading in the early 90's in "Golf Digest's Places to Play" that the St. Ives Resort was one of only 12 public access courses to receive "5 stars". (Others included Pebble, Pinehurst, Kiawah.)
Wow, I thought....gotta go!
"Not so much!"....Tullymore and St. Ives are, to me, two of the most overrated golf courses that I have ever encountered.
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I can't believe I read no mention of Wuskowhan Players Club.
It might not be top 5, but it is top 10 for sure.
http://wuskowhan.com/
That's an amazingly under the radar club -- is that the only other Henderson/Smith co-design besides Arcadia?
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I can't believe I read no mention of Wuskowhan Players Club.
It might not be top 5, but it is top 10 for sure.
http://wuskowhan.com/ (http://wuskowhan.com/)
That's an amazingly under the radar club -- is that the only other Henderson/Smith co-design besides Arcadia?
R&S Sharf Golf Course - Oakland University
[size=0px]Architect:[/size][/color][/size][size=0px] Warren Henderson[/size][/size][size=0px]Designer:[/size][/size][size=0px] Rick Smith[/size]
[/size][size=0px]http://wwwp.oakland.edu/golf/courses/sharf/[/size][size=0px]
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Ben:
Having just played Wuskowan and Muskegon back to back M is far an away the better piece of property and golf course. Very interesting green sites and roll to the property. The course at W is memorable for its closed in, most;y flat, site, but I don't have distinct memories of the individual holes. Also the bunkering at W is cookie cutter boring. Every hole the same flat bottomed style.
Tony
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I agree with Tony about Wuskhowan. Little uneven undulation, much wetland hopping.
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Tony,
Just finished the Mines. Enjoying a nice oatmeal stout at Founders. Playing Muskegon this afternoon and really looking forward to it. The mines back 9 was better, all in all my least favorite of the 3 GR DeVries.
Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run
The Mines
Two for Tuesday and founders makes for an enjoyable day.
I'm going to complete this list in the end of oct. Anyone who has lived in Michigan or lives in michigan please send me ur list. U can't be a rater is a requirement too.
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Very nice job of rating. I'm a HUGE fan of OLCC but sorry, not better that Oakland Hills. Not sure how Western and Bloomfield Hills got on there and Bay Harbor did not. Arcadia and Forest Dunes need to be higher. Grew up in Southfield but ironically never played Plum Hollow.
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Hey Ben!
I have played 80 courses in Michigan, can I send you my list.
Bay Harbor was terrible BTW.
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Ben,
When the microbursts occur on these ratings, remember to bend but don't break.. like some trees on M-72 east of Kalkaska..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/IMG_13801_zpsne4ts7i0.jpg)
Also, you know your craft beer thing has lead to Highpointe now being a hops farm... i guess its better than corn and sunflowers which were grown there, but think about it...
A view looking east, back to the clubhouse from what was once space between #1 green and #2 tee
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/IMG_1226_zps92viono2.jpg)
I can't stand seeing this...
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/IMG_1222_zps1qpbfe0k.jpg)
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I haven't played a ton in Michigan, but I know 6 through 11 better be damn good because both Lost Dunes and Arcadia are excellent.
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Hey Ben!
I have played 80 courses in Michigan, can I send you my list.
Bay Harbor was terrible BTW.
Why didn't you like Bay Harbor?
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I haven't played a ton in Michigan, but I know 6 through 11 better be damn good because both Lost Dunes and Arcadia are excellent.
Lost Dunes and Arcadia are trending up. Lose the attitude dude. Some of the courses haven't gotten enough plays and some are polarizing as in high marks and lower marks. people our age who are well traveled have Arcadia 10 and 11. another guy called me last night and said it was 2nd in the state and lost dunes was 3. 2 people our age that are well traveled have Lost Dunes 13 and 9. Looking over my list I'd prob have Lost Dunes around 6 if I'd of played it. I just got done playing Muskegon CC this afternoon and it really impressed me. It's prob around 12 right now in my opinion with the possibility of going to around the top 7 or better with a restoration(there isn't one in the plans). Comments about Arcadia are anywhere from Excellent to an amusement park. It did get voted best place in Michigan to have a perch sandwich :) .
Waiting for you SW and Northern Michigan Whiners, please send me your list so I don't have to hear your complaining. The bottom 5 are the hardest to do and haven't computed them yet. Comparing some DeVries to a neglected Ross or Park Jr is hard.
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Hey Ben!
I have played 80 courses in Michigan, can I send you my list.
Bay Harbor was terrible BTW.
Why didn't you like Bay Harbor?
OMG. Bay Harbor is atrocious. A bad use of an old quarry.
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Very nice job of rating. I'm a HUGE fan of OLCC but sorry, not better that Oakland Hills. Not sure how Western and Bloomfield Hills got on there and Bay Harbor did not. Arcadia and Forest Dunes need to be higher. Grew up in Southfield but ironically never played Plum Hollow.
Drew,
You need to play OLCC now and OH S on the same day. When you get neutered in the 80's it's hard to imagine. Western is great, the bones are really good. Problem is it floods all the time and the same 80's archie made it worse. Bloomfield has been halfway restored. Tree removal makes a huge difference. The course is very fun and has some really good holes. It sounds like resistance to scoring is high on your list. OLCC is a championship course, if they could find the sketches of the 5 edgy greens that they only have oral history and implement them with some changes to 9 the course could be a 9-9.5 in my book. :o .
Forest Dunes looks rather like a maint whore kinda course. I might play it next week just to get it out of my system. I'll have an open mind. Same with Arcadia next summer. A twilight round and a perch sandwich to follow. I can say I ate a perch sandwich, played golf, and road a roller coaster all on the same day ;D
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list Updated.
We will wait 10 more days for more lists. greywalls, Muskegon, and Wuskowhan have minimal plays.
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Ben,
My top 8 15:
1. Kingsley
2. Belvedere
3. U of M
4. Indianwood Old
5. Battle Creek CC
6. Western
7. Arcadia Bluffs
8. Forest Dunes
9. Boyne - Ross Memorial
10. Little Traverse Bay
11. Radrick Farms
12. A-ga-ming - Sundance
13. Dunmaglas
14. Coyote Preserve
15. Orchards
Out of ~45 MI courses played.
Preferences:
Classic > Modern
Walkable > Cart ball
Public > Private
Open > Tree-lined
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...
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Might as well make a list!
Detroit area native, at ~150 Michigan courses played. (current Chicago)
Only a general order...
Crystal Downs
Greywalls
Arcadia
Lost Dunes
U of M
Forest Dunes
Eagle Eye
Grosse Ile
Shepherd's Hollow
Dunes Club
Indianwood Old
Sweetgrass
Belvedere
Kingsley
Gailes
A couple probably nobody will ever admit to but I sure like a lot...
Wyandotte Shores
Raisin River East
Tyrone Hills
Black Forest
Otsego Tribute
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Jon
I really liked Wyandotte Shores when it opened. I went back a few years ago and they cut down all the native and reduced some fairway width...very disappointing.
Ciao
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Jon, You have Greywalls 11 spots ahead of Kingsley. You obviously enjoy DeVries' work. Can you explain your rationale? I'm curious as I've never played Greywalls and have Kingsley #2 on my MI list. I've read and heard great things but haven't met someone that preferred it over Kingsley.
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Jon, You have Greywalls 11 spots ahead of Kingsley. You obviously enjoy DeVries' work. Can you explain your rationale? I'm curious as I've never played Greywalls and have Kingsley #2 on my MI list. I've read and heard great things but haven't met someone that preferred it over Kingsley.
Sean, as a fellow Downriver guy, I pretty much grew up on Wyandotte. They've never really figured out what they want to do with it. While conditioning is greatly improved (and a lot of the native areas back...), they've added a LOT of trees. Gasp!! It's made it a much more defined course and takes away from the "links" intention. It is not as wide as it used to be, for sure. I do love that they have their own "Road Hole" 8th...
Ryan, my list was only roughly in order. I LOVE Greywalls more than almost any other course, but CD always has that aura to it, so that's why it's up top. Maybe many have it KC higher as it's easier to get to? I don't know. I've been going to GW pretty much since it opened and have always been drawn to it. Both courses can certainly be major asskickers, but I've been able to string together better full rounds at GW. Both wonderful for match play, of course. Two very similar and very different courses if that makes sense.
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Ben,
My top 8 15:
1. Kingsley
2. Belvedere
3. U of M
4. Indianwood Old
5. Battle Creek CC
6. Western
7. Arcadia Bluffs
8. Forest Dunes
9. Boyne - Ross Memorial
10. Little Traverse Bay
11. Radrick Farms
12. A-ga-ming - Sundance
13. Dunmaglas
14. Coyote Preserve
15. Orchards
Out of ~45 MI courses played.
Preferences:
Classic > Modern
Walkable > Cart ball
Public > Private
Open > Tree-lined
Russ,
Nice list, a good mix.
Jon,
Sheperds Hollow? Interesting pick..
The list has been updated again. Thanks for the lists. Others who haven't sent, what are you waiting for?
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Man, I am surprised by the bashing Oakland Hills is taking. For my money, a set of greens like that is enough to certainly keep it in the top 3. I am not keen on the bunkering of Oakland Hills (its only real issue), but the greens at Franklin Hills and Orchard Lake are not close to the interest of Oakland Hills.
Ciao
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S,
The reason the south course is lower is not everyone has played it. Kingsley, franklin, battle creek, and Grosse ile all have great greens. Franklin greens are way superior to olcc. If franklin ever fixed the 17 hole and continued with tree removal it would be something.
The 2016 list will be better due to requiring 10 plays of top 25 current. Greywalls only has 3 votes, we hope to rectify that next summer ;)
There is really no need to leave michigan the 6 warm months of the year...
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Ben:
I was going to go anon on this to avoid flak, but here goes anyway. These are only courses I have played. I added an Ancients List at the bottom because we should all be glad they still exist.
Tony
Michigan Top 25
1. Oakland Hills South
2. Franklin Hills
3. Orchard Lake
4. Country Club of Detroit
5. Barton Hills
6. Indianwood Old
7. Bloomfield Hills
8. U of M MacKenzie
9. Muskegon CC
10. Detroit Golf Club North
11. Grosse Ile
12. Tam O’Shanter
13. Plum Hollow
15. Shepherd’s Hollow
16. Western G&CC
17. Cedar River
18. Boyne Highlands Heather
19. Port Huron GC
20. Belvedere
21. Black River
22. U 0f M Radrick
23. Oakland Hills North
24. Forest Lake CC
25. The Legend
Essex (Ont.) (still a GAM course) and TPC of Michigan (it was fun to play)
Ancients List: (Be thankful they exist)
Wequetonsing
Harbor Point
Les Chenaux Club
Pointe aux Barques
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Anthony,
When's the last time you played Belvedere? I find it very hard to believe there's 19 better courses excluding a couple of obvious big names, not to mention the likes of Boyne...
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Jud. [size=78%]15 years ago. [/size]
My list is biased, because its mine. However, back in the day when Black River was holding a state open and four state ams (1946-1960), over two different designs, it was considered as good as Belvedere, if not better. IMO I don't understand Belvedere in the top 10.
I have also not played Kingsley, Lost Dunes, CD, or Arcadia; only seen them from the clubhouse or from the roadside over the fence and OB.
Enjoy your posts and comments.
Tony
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I find it very encouraging to see Muskegon in such high cotton, so to speak. I was there back in my pre- gca days and remember it fondly.
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Tony,
Come clean. Did u write down 13 names and then head to the bar? U have Shepard hollow above ur own course and my home course, western, and belvedere? Are you a closet hills fan or a golf digest rater? I hope it was the booze. I was driving and had to pull over and talk u off the ledge. ;D
Ps- maybe the new owners of muskegon will let us cut down trees over there this winter ;D
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Ben:
SH was a sop to your plebeian public course bias. I thought that would throw you off the scent and I could slip in my favorites. Radrick was just to get the expected response, although to me its not a top fifteen course. It will be interesting to see if Dye's trip makes a difference. I already defended (right or wrong) my Belvedere rank.
[size=78%]Being a bit of a history guy, I like it a little rough around the edges. Too many courses with white sand and many post '80s courses leave me a bit cold. Cedar River one of the few I enjoy playing and walking the land, even in winter.[/size]
[/size]
Hmmmm….maybe I'm not a rater, I can't seem to get a return call from Topeka.
Tony
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
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Hell, for cart golf SH is alright. I have played worse courses which are well thought of.
Ciao
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S,
You think well of Birmingham cc and have it high on ur list. Higher then people who have played it and ranked it. Unfortunately it's under the knife right now and I can't play it. I've read ur tour which was good. Can u tell me again what u enjoyed about it?
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S,
You think well of Birmingham cc and have it high on ur list. Higher then people who have played it and ranked it. Unfortunately it's under the knife right now and I can't play it. I've read ur tour which was good. Can u tell me again what u enjoyed about it?
Birmingham is a very well balanced design in terms of hills/flat; aerial/ground greens; straight/dogleg holes and decent green surfaces. Trees need to come out, but I think Doak missed the boat on this one with a 4...I would give BCC a solid 6 as the pieces come together very well. The weak area is near the entrance drive...to really improve the course this is the section which needs a re-think.
I knew the knew Super would want to do some work to the course. He did a good job at Grosse Ile in trying circumstances...though only a complete bunker overhaul will really improve Grosse Ile. What is planned for BCC?
Ciao
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Crystal Downs
Dunes Club
Kingsley
Barton Hills
Oakland Hills South
Franklin Hills
Indianwood Old
Black Forest
University of Michigan
Lost Dunes
Best Brewery- Jolly Pumpkin
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Will,
Have a glass of Kuhnhenn Cherry Oud Bruin and it will rock your world view...
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Crystal Downs
Dunes Club
Kingsley
Barton Hills
Oakland Hills South
Franklin Hills
Indianwood Old
Black Forest
University of Michigan
Lost Dunes
Best Brewery- Jolly Pumpkin
Will,
Did u go to school in michigan? Are u living here still?
Jolly pumpkin is the best brewery on main st ;D . That sour beer must have influenced some of those picks. When winter rolls around an OT michigan top 5 or 10 brewery rankings is in order.
Arcadia ales
Bells
Right Brain
Dark horse
Founders
Pumpkin is the 3rd best in Ann arbor imo.
Thanks for posting. I need another course, we aren't taking 9 holers.
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Lived in SE MI for 13 years.
9
Crystal Downs- world class
8
Kingsley Club- match play gem
Oakland Hills - the greens
7
Forest Dunes - much more than good conditioning
Franklin Hills - fix 17
6 and 5
UofM - most of my rounds played here
Indianwood Old - great members course
Lakewood-Gailes - Sean A. is never wrong
Arcadia - poor routing but so much fun, have walked 36 here so it can be done.
have not played: Orchard Lake, Lost Dunes, Dunes Club, Bloomfield, CC Detroit, Greywalls
so leaving a top 10 spot for one of those.
Others I like not in any order:
Tullymore - suited my game, only played before clubhouse opened
Radrick - super low key atmosphere
Barton Hills - seen only pre-renovation
Angels Crossing - fun template holes, good conditioning when I played after opening
Diamond Springs - more like this please
The Orchards - ruined by housing
favorite brewery: Dragonmead
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Will,
Did u go to school in michigan? Are u living here still?
Jolly pumpkin is the best brewery on main st ;D . That sour beer must have influenced some of those picks. When winter rolls around an OT michigan top 5 or 10 brewery rankings is in order.
Arcadia ales
Bells
Right Brain
Dark horse
Founders
Pumpkin is the 3rd best in Ann arbor imo.
Thanks for posting. I need another course, we aren't taking 9 holers.
Swap Odd Sides or Shorts for Founders.
Founders isnt a Michigan brewery anymore. Its Spanish.
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John,
Solid post. Have u played franklin post prichard? I agree on 17. 5 and 6 are really good holes. The 5th Crenshaw spoke highly of. Unfortunately it's kept soft and the greens are too fast for the bold greens. 2, 9, 13, 14, and 18 are world class imo.
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Angels Crossing - fun template holes, good conditioning when I played after opening
About time this course was given some love on this thread.
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John,
Solid post. Have u played franklin post prichard? I agree on 17. 5 and 6 are really good holes. The 5th Crenshaw spoke highly of. Unfortunately it's kept soft and the greens are too fast for the bold greens. 2, 9, 13, 14, and 18 are world class imo.
Ben,
Yes, I've played Franklin since the renovation. Those 5 are all excellent holes, I especially like 13.
Sven,
I played AC with Jim Thompson (one of the founders) and Joe Hancock. I had a great time and remember the course fondly but know it's been through a lot of transition since then. Have you played it recently?
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John:
Last time I played it was probably around 2010. Haven't seen it recently.
Sven
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I had not heard of Angels Crossing until this thread. As it was designed by one of the Matthews family I did not have high hopes but the pictures look promising.
Speaking of the Matthews family, as an MSU grad I am partial to the Forest Akers West course. Designed by W. Bruce Matthews the old man of the family, it's a fine course that needs some tree trimming but still has generous fairways on most holes. The recent routing change screws with the flow however. All the par 3's are now from the 7th to 12th holes.
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
I meant the first list as the composite.
Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel. Great use of bunkering and back to front greens. Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball. A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well. IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3, from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens. My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.
In terms of the list, I think Oakland Hills, Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better
I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
I meant the first list as the composite.
Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel. Great use of bunkering and back to front greens. Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball. A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well. IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3, from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens. My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.
In terms of the list, I think Oakland Hills, Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better
I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood
Jackson much better than Indianwood?? Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
I meant the first list as the composite.
Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel. Great use of bunkering and back to front greens. Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball. A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well. IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3, from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens. My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.
In terms of the list, I think Oakland Hills, Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better
I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood
Jackson much better than Indianwood?? Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.
Indianwood is the most overrated course. Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
I meant the first list as the composite.
Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel. Great use of bunkering and back to front greens. Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball. A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well. IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3, from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens. My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.
In terms of the list, I think Oakland Hills, Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better
I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood
Jackson much better than Indianwood?? Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.
Indianwood is the most overrated course. Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.
Get a clue! then come back in the morning.
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
What is the composite list? The first post is the list. I've heard cc of Jackson is a gem. How many courses in the top 25 have u played? I love how people sound off but are vague in their response. One in our group has played it 12 years ago in high school and had nice things to say.
I meant the first list as the composite.
Jackson was built by arthur hamm, a field supervisor for Donald Ross in the 20s and it has a real Ross feel. Great use of bunkering and back to front greens. Very narrow fairways (18 to 25 yards) with many holes where you cant hit driver off tee and need to work the ball. A bit shortish (6750 from the back tees), it still protects par very well. IMO, the strength of the course is the par 3, from 150 to 240, great 1 shotters to well protected greens. My favorite hole is the 150 yard par 3 sixth, which Dave Hill once called the best par 3 he's ever played.
In terms of the list, I think Oakland Hills, Greywalls, Crystal Downs, Forest Dunes and Arcardia are the only ones I have played which I would call clearly better
I would put it on similar terms with CCD, Battle Creek, Gross Ille and Oakland hills north and call it much better than U of M, Mukesgon, Radrick Farms, Barton Hills, Bloomfield hills , and indianwood
Jackson much better than Indianwood?? Maybe the new but your smoking something if your talking the old.
Indianwood is the most overrated course. Great land, good routing, and fine furniture scattered all around in a moronic manner.
Get a clue! then come back in the morning.
Did u fall out of ur carryall too many times?
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I'd love to see the arguments supporting Plum Hollow as a, say, top 50 course in Michigan.
Really good set of greens and outstanding par 3's. Nice variety of holes with different shot requirements from short to long iron approaches. It has issues for sure but it's definitely a solid track and if they had the money and brain power it could be improved nicely with massive tree removal to expose more of the valleys and ravines that really could mess with your mind if you could see them.
What someone needs to explain to me is why Barton Hills is anything better than average and actually got worse after the renovation.
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I'll agree that Plum Hollow could be much better.
How anyone could think Barton Hills is average and not substantially improved since Ron Prichard's work there is baffling to me. I would argue it is one of the most transformed courses I've ever seen, along with LACC North. It is true that some prefer narrow corridors, more trees, shallow bunkers, circular small greens, and modern conditioning. A lot of people like Starbucks too.
Another course for Ben Cowan (Michigan) would be CC of Detroit.
Another brewery would be Greenbush.
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I'll agree that Plum Hollow could be much better.
How anyone could think Barton Hills is average and not substantially improved since Ron Prichard's work there is baffling to me. I would argue it is one of the most transformed courses I've ever seen, along with LACC North. It is true that some prefer narrow corridors, more trees, shallow bunkers, circular small greens, and modern conditioning. A lot of people like Starbucks too.
Another course for Ben Cowan (Michigan) would be CC of Detroit.
Another brewery would be Greenbush.
Will,
Barton went from a 4 to a 5.5. The top hat green looks like someone took a wheel barrel and dumped dirt on it. The 12th green is bad too. He improved the bunkers at barton. The money they spent they should have imoroved. The ponds on 6 and 10 look worse than many munis. Barton does have potential though, but I don't see it coming to fruition. Someone said it was in same class as Plainfield, I find that funny if Plainfield is considered 2nd best in Jersey.
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Well Ben, we have must have different criteria for evaluating courses.
Pond appearance isn't high on my list.
I don't see a rival to Barton in the Detroit area other than Oakland Hills.
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Will,
No that was not what I was implying. those 2 ponds weren't in the original design and they detract from the course in a negative way. It's shitty strategic additions. The one looks like a big puddle in the middle of the fairway.
Have you played franklin, Grosse ile, and orchard lake?
Barton Is The 3rd Best In Ann Arbor. Do u live in Michigan?
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I do spend a lot of time in Michigan and have played the courses you note multiple times. I am very familiar with these designs.
The pond on 6 at Barton is original, the pond on 10 was added for irrigation.
If you think Barton is #3 in Michigan you'd be right, #3 in Ann Arbor indicates to me that you have a lot to learn.
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I'm pretty sure pond on 6 is not original. Knowing u have jolly pumpkin as ur 1 brewery told me everything. If washtenaw was renovated barton would be 4th best in Ann arbor. Barton 3 in michigan is funny. The club now controls all its water, the ponds added on 3 and 12 were much better and logical. I'll go hole for hole match play barton, radrick, and UM with you. UM has 2 world class holes in the first 6 holes. That is high praise for I went to OSU.
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Ok Ben, start the matchplay. Could I see BH as 3rd in Michigan? Man that's tough competition. But I could see it.
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Ok Ben, start the matchplay. Could I see BH as 3rd in Michigan? Man that's tough competition. But I could see it.
Will start this tonight. I gotta work now. This reminds me of the mike young thread about bunkers.
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I'm pretty sure pond on 6 is not original. Knowing u have jolly pumpkin as ur 1 brewery told me everything. If washtenaw was renovated barton would be 4th best in Ann arbor. Barton 3 in michigan is funny. The club now controls all its water, the ponds added on 3 and 12 were much better and logical. I'll go hole for hole match play barton, radrick, and UM with you. UM has 2 world class holes in the first 6 holes. That is high praise for I went to OSU.
Dude......
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Don,
That was a deep response. I'm sorry that prob wasn't covered in the confidential guide ::) .
To paraphrase jkava, we're told what to like....
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Knowing Ben went to OSU tells me everything :)
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1. OHCC (South)
2. Arcadia Bluffs
3. Forest Dunes
4. Kingsley
5. Univ of Mich
6. OHCC (North)
7. Oakland U (Sharf)
8. Radrick Farms
9. CC of Detroit
10. Cedar River
11. Gailes
12. Bloomfield Hills CC
13. Treetops (Smith)
14. Orchards
15. Boyne (Heather)
Haven't played: Crystal Downs, Lost Dunes, Orchard Lake, Franklin Hills, Barton Hills, Wuskowhan, True North, Belvedere, Greywalls, Battle Creek, Detroit GC
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A top 5 or 10 MI brewery list without Kuhnhenn's is like a Top 25 MI GCA list without Crystal Downs. Their DRIPA is world class and they have a bunch of good stouts and porters. The Warren location has an incredible vibe and is very low key but always packed. I'm very disappointed that it wasn't listed within the initial Top 5. Shorts also has to be included. Founders is no longer a MI brewery. They sold a 30% stake to a large multinational in late 2014. Sleepers - Beards Brewery in Petoskey and Griffin Claw in Birmingham
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hard to understand how CC of Jackson(Marsh/Woods) is not on the list. Has it just not gotten that much GCA play? Haven't played all the michigan courses out there, but clearly better than every course I've played below 12 on the composite list.
Mark,
Thanks for posting CCJ. This was one of the big reasons why I did this thread. To expose gems that have been overlooked by the PR machine. I've heard good things by a few other MI GCAers about Jackson and I plan on visiting before the first snow.
I'm going to try and steer this thread away from the hipster beer notchers. If I can't pronounce the breweries name, I prob wouldn't like it :P
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Knowing Ben went to OSU tells me everything :)
Because we know u of m has to get all of their good players and coaches from Ohio right?😉
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alright the 2015 list has been updated for the final time. It will be fun to compare the 2016 list to this one.
2016 list requirements. 12 courses Played from 2015 list. 5 votes for course to be in top 10. Have to have live in Michigan. Can't be a rater!
There were no ranking requirements and people were not told how to think/rank. Ribbing is always allowed ;D
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David,
Great response. I would go 2 Arcadia / 8 PH if I had to split 10 rounds.
PH has unbelievable potential. We're talking Doak 9 land. Alison did a great job routing the course through and around the ravine (watershed) that runs through the property. The elevation changes are very dramatic for an urban course in SE MI. PH is blessed with an outstanding set of Par 3's, fun and dramatic Par 5's and some really great Par 4's. I would argue that the fifth is one of the best par 3's in MI. If PH had the resources, vision and care (OLCC super) the course would easily rival other Alison gems - MCC, OLCC, KCC, etc. Sure, the course needs strategic tree removal, a bunker renovation, re-working of 1,8 and 18, etc. If we're ranking courses solely on gca, PH is easily Top 10-12 in the state with an opportunity to be Top 5 with the right vision and $$. PH has hosted a PGA Championship and a Ryder Cup, let's hope the course survives and its' potential is someday realized!
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Ryan, I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be.
As an example, I visited Maxwell's Dornick Hills in Oklahoma. By all accounts the golf course would be spectacular if restored but what is on the ground today is a long way from greatness (rock wall or not). As someone interested in golf course architecture I was excited to see Dornick Hills and am glad I did... doesn't mean it's great today or that I'd be excited to go see it again in current form. I feel the same way about Plum Hollow. Soft (at least when I played it), overly narrow, over treed, awful mowing lines, shrunken greens and several very awkward holes.
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"I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be."
I gave PH a ranking for how it's presented today (11-12) and a hypothetical ranking (5) if some of the issues were addressed. I will admit that my present ranking is on the high side of our cumulative rankings and may be influenced by my love of the property / potential. I've played PH twice this year - before and after this year's Michigan Am. The course was very firm and fast. (However, their superintendent left mid-summer) I tried to look past simple conditioning issues as I developed my Top 25 otherwise I would've had Forest Dunes at 3 or 4!
"I'd love to see the arguments supporting Plum Hollow as a, say, top 50 course in Michigan."
While I agree with most of your criticisms and would love for it to be improved, I still find it very playable and enjoyable in its' present condition and stand by my Top 25 ranking.
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20. Lakewood Shores (Gailes) (5 votes)
21. Plum Hollow (6 votes)
22. Bloomfield Hills (5 votes)
23. Pilgrims Run (4 votes)
24. Point O Woods (4 votes)
25. The Mines (3 votes)
The Gailes and Mines ahead of Red Run GC?? I thought I saw at least three votes on the last email chain for RR. Where's the love for Bendelow/Willie Park Jr.
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20. Lakewood Shores (Gailes) (5 votes)
21. Plum Hollow (6 votes)
22. Bloomfield Hills (5 votes)
23. Pilgrims Run (4 votes)
24. Point O Woods (4 votes)
25. The Mines (3 votes)
The Gailes and Mines ahead of Red Run GC?? I thought I saw at least three votes on the last email chain for RR. Where's the love for Bendelow/Willie Park Jr.
Ryan,
Gails had a 13 rating, The Mines was 13.66, and Red Run was 19.6. I've heard good thing about the Gails. The Mines vs Red Run would take some thought because I've played both only once. Not enough votes for Flint. Battle Creek is high up on the list....
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Ryan, I'd think a ranking would rank courses as they are presented today, not what they could be.
As an example, I visited Maxwell's Dornick Hills in Oklahoma. By all accounts the golf course would be spectacular if restored but what is on the ground today is a long way from greatness (rock wall or not). As someone interested in golf course architecture I was excited to see Dornick Hills and am glad I did... doesn't mean it's great today or that I'd be excited to go see it again in current form. I feel the same way about Plum Hollow. Soft (at least when I played it), overly narrow, over treed, awful mowing lines, shrunken greens and several very awkward holes.
Mark,
Why don't you share with us which holes were awkward at Plum Hollow. You have only played it once I assume and you say it's not top 50 in Michigan.. What have you played in Michigan other then Barton and Orchard? Do you think Barton is firm day in and day out? Barton isn't over treed? Mowing lines- Are we a maint. GCA 3/5er? Shrunken greens yes, that is one of many reasons why it isn't top 5 in Michigan. As you mentioned in another post how superior you are in accessing golf Architecture. Does a top hat that might be redone in the future qualify as being in same league as Plainfield? Does a mower that hits the ridge on #12 qualify as Plainfield great? Do irrigation ponds that are put next to a green in the 60's differ from shrunken greens at Plum Hollow? You want us to grade a course as is, which Ryan and I have, but you overlook Architecture flaws at Barton? I for the record will restate that Barton has a lot of potential, as does Plum.
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Sorry to bump an older thread but I wanted to comment on Plum Hollow after playing it with Ben Cowan and Jon Adkins who hosted Ben and I. I live 3 miles due west of PH and am amazed at the contours of the land. I though the entire area around here was dead flat. Plum Hollow plays over a deep hollow and the western part of the course is in a deep swale. There are many wonderful holes, particularly some very nice shorter par 4's and a fine set of par 3's. One issue is most of the one shot holes are about the same length. The strength of the course is the green sites. They are well sited and some are perfectly benched into the existing terrain.
I like 18 a lot, mainly due to the green site, right below the terrace of the clubhouse and just past a creek.
The course is far from perfect as a chainsaw would get a good workout and the lower lying holes on the back have drainage issues. Some of the greens are outstanding and others a bit blah.
To be fair, we played on a chilly morning following a rain and the greens had recently been aerated.
I don't see this course ever being a 9, but a 7 is quite possible with tree removal, capping of a few fairways and some work around the greens. The bunkers are not particularly artistic but that's relatively minor. I had a great time playing the course and want to thank Jon for hosting.
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2016 list requirements for voting. 10 courses Played from 2015 list. Course must be played by 3 different voters to be eligible to be rated in top 25. Must have played 5 courses in top 10 of 2015 list to be eligible to vote. Have to live in Michigan. We are using 100 point Doak scale this year.
For those GCAers who are not on the email chain and live in Michigan and are eligible to vote. Send me a PM if you want to contribute. Need everyone's list by Nov 15th at 7pm.