Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Benjamin Litman on October 02, 2015, 10:29:04 AM
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The "Preliminary Master Plan" for the new Palmer course at Castle Stuart has been released (and submitted to the Highland Council for approval). Nothing about the routing is traditional, short par-4s appear integral, several green-to-tee walks at least seem long on paper, and a par-3 course looks to be on its way next to the range. Here is an article with additional details: http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/New-Arnlod-Palmer-course-at-Castle-Stuart-Golf-Links-to-create-more-than-50-jobs-02102015.htm (http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/New-Arnlod-Palmer-course-at-Castle-Stuart-Golf-Links-to-create-more-than-50-jobs-02102015.htm)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQTzJmEWEAADKWy.jpg)
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Well they certainly seem to be sticking with the wide is beautiful theme. Not sure what's going on with that 18th hole, two separate greens perhaps ? Long green to tee walks as noted by Benjamin. A few sharp dog-legs and what exactly is no. 3 about ?
Over all it doesn't appear to be the most elegant layout but then perhaps there are site constraints I don't know about. I have been down and had a brief look a while back but honestly can't remember much. Anyone more familiar with the site who can comment ?
Niall
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Ah yes, I think I understand no. 3, it's a linear tee offering a variety of angles similar to the 13th (?) at Kingsbarns perhaps ?
Niall
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(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5788/21901801061_8874459e55_o.png)
It does seem like the routing gets a bit disjointed around the turn, especially from 7-8, 9-10, and 11-12. As the land is currently being used for farmland what is the topography like? Is it expected that Palmer & Co. will have to come in and move a lot of earth around?
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"Is it expected that Palmer & Co. will have to come in and move a lot of earth around?"
Ben H. -
Yes, that land is farmland. It is pretty flat and it slopes down to the water a bit.
You can be sure Mark Parsinen will be involved with the design and the construction of the course (as he was at Kingsbarns and the first CS course). As much earth will be moved as needs to be moved. ;)
DT
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In light of my post above, I thought these comments of Thad Layton of Palmer Design regarding the site for the new course might be of interest,
"It's pure sand, which is an architect's dream, really. You can do things with and create shapes that you otherwise couldn't do. With many courses, where there is clay or firmer ground, you have to create basins so that water can drain - a golf course is no better than its drainage - and that can result in areas that don't look that natural. Here, you don't need artificial drainage, it just percolates down because of the sand, which makes for firm conditions. This site is really going to carry the day."
Clearly I was mistaken in describing that land as farmland. Maybe it is better described as grazing land. To my eye it is not links land.
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David,
To be fair to you, the article in the Inverness Courier does refer to farmland.
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Hmm - a flat, sandy site by the sea, maybe better used for grazing than for growing food. Now, what, what does that remind me of? I'm thinking, and I seem to remember reading *something* about a site like that, a long time ago, but I can't for the life of me put my finger on it. Might anyone know what I might be thinking of? Some old course, I'm almost sure, that was sort of flat (or at least that's what mind keeps telling me) and that drained well, and there was sand. Anyway, I give up. Maybe I'm making the whole thing up, a false memory or something. Because I'm sure if there was in fact such an old site and course like I seem to remember, by the sea like that and kind of flat, well, I'm sure that the folks building this course would know about it.
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Paul G. -
Can land that is farmed not be "farmland?" ;)
In any case, the good news is Thad Layton's comments certainly raise the expectations for the new course being a very good one.
DT
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Hmm - a flat, sandy site by the sea, maybe better used for grazing than for growing food. Now, what, what does that remind me of? I'm thinking, and I seem to remember reading *something* about a site like that, a long time ago, but I can't for the life of me put my finger on it. Might anyone know what I might be thinking of? Some old course, I'm almost sure, that was sort of flat (or at least that's what mind keeps telling me) and that drained well, and there was sand. Anyway, I give up. Maybe I'm making the whole thing up, a false memory or something. Because I'm sure if there was in fact such an old site and course like I seem to remember, by the sea like that and kind of flat, well, I'm sure that the folks building this course would know about it.
Pebble Beach?
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Peter,
There is flat and then there is flat.
The land The Old Course is on is worlds apart from the land the second Castle Stuart course is on. One has more ripples and undulations than you can shake a stick at, the other has none. The Old Course is one of the least created in the history of the game, the second Castle Stuart course will need to be entirely dreamt up and constructed by the architects, much as the first one was. The sandy soil is a massive bonus in this department obviously. But I can't think of two more different land scapes by the sea.
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If I recall correctly, the Kingsbarns site was flat farmland but with plenty of sand on site. Perhaps sandy soil and farmland can co-exist.
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David
Kingsbarns certainly wasn't flat. It was links below and a fairly pronounced slope up to farmland on top level. In building the course they had a go at mixing the soil from both levels and spreading it throughout the site for consistency sake. It might have brought consistency but not sure it was a total success. It certainly is a good bit more gritty and less sandy than you would get on a traditional links, particularly on the east coast.
At Castle Stuart the first course was sand capped if I'm not mistaken. If the site for the second course is "pure sand" then it's an interesting example of how perhaps other aspects have become more important than soil type in choosing where to build a course. That said, if the site for the second course is similar to other parts of the Moray coast then the pure sand referred to might be the dry dusty soil you get on a lot of the farmland along the Moray coast. It should also be said that I'm no agronomist so interested to hear the thoughts of someone like Jon or even Chris H although suspect he might not want to comment given his involvement.
Niall
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https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/954369/second-castle-stuart-course-recommended-for-approval/
Second Castle Stuart course recommended for approval
23 June 2016 by David Kerr
A second championship course at Castle Stuart is set to be approved just days before it hosts the Scottish Open for the fourth time.
The return of the tournament is expected to generate millions of pounds for the Highland economy, with thousands of visitors expected to watch an international field clash at the links.
And greater economic boosts are expected in future with the new course, which will be built near the existing course and has been designed by Arnold Palmer’s company.
It will be the first course to be associated with the golfing legend in Scotland.
Councillors are due to consider plans for the course on Tuesday – with planning officials having recommended approval for the multi-million pound development.
It is expected that the new 18-hole course could support more than 50 jobs and attract millions of pounds in investment across the north.
The complex on the shores of the Moray Firth is preparing to host international stars including 2013 winner at Castle Stuart Phil Mickelson as well as Ryder Cup stars Lee Westwood and Martin Kaymer at the Scottish Open.
Inverness-born pro Russell Knox will also be in the field as the tournament returns to the Highlands for the first time since 2013, after a three year run from 2011.
The new course will be of a similar scale and size to the existing links and has been designed so at least seven holes will have views of Castle Stuart itself, while 10 will have views over the Moray Firth.
It has been designed by senior architects from Mr Palmer’s company and the 86-year-old golfer – nicknamed The King – said he was aiming to “create something truly special” when he visited the Highlands last July.
The new 18 holes would be built immediately to the south of the existing course.
Stuart McColm, general manager at Castle Stuart Golf Links, said: “We are extremely pleased that officials are recommending that plans for a second world class championship course at Castle Stuart Golf Links be granted.
“We hope that councillors will give their consent next week and allow preparations to continue towards construction getting under way later this year.
“The new course would provide a huge economic boost for Inverness, the Highlands and Scotland. It would strengthen the Highlands’ position as a leading golfing destination and, along with new transport links, help visitors regard it as a gateway for visitors to the Home of Golf.”
“Together with the Arnold Palmer Group, we are acutely aware it has to be developed in the correct way, with community backing and with the support of local and national statutory bodies to protect a sensitive environment.
“As the report to councillors points out, our work on the existing course has demonstrated we can create something with worldwide appeal to bring benefit to the area while working within the regulatory framework.”
In a report due to go before the council’s south planning committee next week, area planning officer Nicola Drummond recommended that the development is approved.
She said: “The development of the second championship golf course is to be welcomed and will be of economic benefit to the area enhancing a well established existing facility.”
If approved, construction is expected to take around two years.
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There are two ways to go with the double-green concept. One is that the two greens make the hole play subtly different (I believe that this is the case with the hole at Pine Valley) while a second is to have two entirely different holes (the two-green hole at Bandon Crossings, where the left/lower is a par five hole and the right/upper, a much shorter par four.) Seems that this course is opting for the latter, if there are to be two, separate greens.
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Will skip the obvious editorial comments about the chosen architect. I have seen the site and, from across the inlet on the 4th tee at Castle Stuart, it looks rather unremarkable.
This is referred to as a "Tribute Course".
Does anyone know to what they may be referring?
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The designer had drunk 10 pints of it when doing the routing?
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The designer had drunk 10 pints of it when doing the routing?
I get that but I don't know how many others on here will :)
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The designer had drunk 10 pints of it when doing the routing?
I get that but I don't know how many others on here will :)
Sounds like it might be some sort of alcoholic beverage. Perhaps a whisky?
Well, at least it will be a place where those who want 5 hour rounds can play and enjoy their souvenir accessory pouches of tees, ball marks and a yardage book..... ;)
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Beer. Anyone who drank ten pints of whisky would presumably be incapable of routing one hole, let alone 18.
http://www.staustellbrewery.co.uk/tribute (http://www.staustellbrewery.co.uk/tribute)
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Beer. Anyone who drank ten pints of whisky would presumably be incapable of routing one hole, let alone 18.
http://www.staustellbrewery.co.uk/tribute (http://www.staustellbrewery.co.uk/tribute)
Can't imagine you get much Cornish brewed beer in Inverness! :P
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You wouldn't think so, but bloody Doom Bar is everywhere now, so who knows?
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I had to google Doom Bar...I thought it was a place to drink, not a drink.