Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on August 26, 2015, 01:28:12 AM
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it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.
Yes, 18 great holes.
Let us not also forget that during the Golden Age, architects rarely focused on the 18th hole as most matches were over before the competitors reached the 18th tee.
Playing CPC, it becomes clear that the golf course is the product of genius, study and unique topography.
What continues to impress me is how AM introduced or rather, melded the bunkering into the terrain.
No two holes are alike and there are multiple strategies presented on each hole.
While the fairways are very, very generous, AM created narrow locations in the fairway that have to be reached if the golfer wants to maximize their chances for hitting the green/s in regulation.
Angles become critical and the visual deception and visual challenges that AM created are challenging, yet fun to meet.
How much do you dare cut off on # 2 and # 8
Do you hit driver or lay up on # 9 and # 16, and perhaps # 17
Many approach shots beg the same question.
CPC is one of those courses that I'd want to play every day.
There are no weak holes.
18 is not a weak hole, it's one of the few "demand" par 4's on the golf course.
You must reach the DZ beyond the last tree on the right.
You must pass AM's playing test.
Those that don't............ Complain.
MacKenzie's use of the high dune incorporating #'s 7,8, and 9 is pure genius.
MacKenzie's abbreviated green to tee walks are also a tribute to his creative genius.
More on CPC later.
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I'm pretty sure I will never play Cypress. I'm still pissed at myself that I didn't walk out to the 15th and 16th when I was there. I found out later that one the scenic stops I was at on 17 mile drive was right next to the path that takes you the 15th tee. Getting arrested for trespassing would have been worth seeing those holes in person. I've seen a picture of the plaque on the 17th tee. Something about soaking it all in and how lucky you are to be standing on that tee box....
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Pat,
I do not necessarily agree with you regarding 18, but I agree with everything else. Cypress Point is amazing and a whole lot more than just 15 and 16.
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it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.
Yes, 18 great holes.
Let us not also forget that during the Golden Age, architects rarely focused on the 18th hole as most matches were over before the competitors reached the 18th tee.
Playing CPC, it becomes clear that the golf course is the product of genius, study and unique topography.
What continues to impress me is how AM introduced or rather, melded the bunkering into the terrain.
No two holes are alike and there are multiple strategies presented on each hole.
While the fairways are very, very generous, AM created narrow locations in the fairway that have to be reached if the golfer wants to maximize their chances for hitting the green/s in regulation.
Angles become critical and the visual deception and visual challenges that AM created are challenging, yet fun to meet.
How much do you dare cut off on # 2 and # 8
Do you hit driver or lay up on # 9 and # 16, and perhaps # 17
Many approach shots beg the same question.
CPC is one of those courses that I'd want to play every day.
There are no weak holes.
18 is not a weak hole, it's one of the few "demand" par 4's on the golf course.
You must reach the DZ beyond the last tree on the right.
You must pass AM's playing test.
Those that don't............ Complain.
MacKenzie's use of the high dune incorporating #'s 7,8, and 9 is pure genius.
MacKenzie's abbreviated green to tee walks are also a tribute to his creative genius.
More on CPC later.
Thank you, Captain Obvious...!!...:-)
Your effusive praise confirms why CPC has been a "Global top 5" course for decades.
IMO, the 18th at CPC is a severe let down for the follwing reasons:
1. At 343 yards, it is basically a "double dog-leg". Not enough real estate to pull that off.
2. The fairway bunkers are "double hazards" which is a massive architectural - or maintenance - flaw. When your tee shot lands in the bunkers, you have HUGE cypress trees impeding your line of recovery. (Bunker short and right, and bunker on right as hole finally straightens out. Bunker on left side of fairway is impeded by a huge tree hanging into fiarway about 50 yards short and left of green.)
3. The optimal tee shot is played OVER the trees or a player MUST play a draw around the trees with a 5 iron or 5 wood. If you choose to defend this, Pat, then it would certainly be in direct contrast to your issue with #18 tree at PB.
It's as if AM chose to make 15, 16 and 17 so special that he gave in on 18 and ran out of real estate to make a closing hole that is commensurate with the rest of the playing experience.
That hole needs a chain saw and reminds me of holes at Olympic Lake before they were smart enough to cut down 1000 trees.
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Let down? That implies expectations. I'd agree standing on the tee for the first time it's a head scratch-er, but, The green alone, makes this closer better than 90% of holes built pot WWII. The trees are camouflage.
Pat is correct on 99% of this thread. ;)
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I have Cypress Point Club in my top ten - but I'm thinking that's only because I'm supposed to. Its aura has diminished in the ten years since I played it given what I've subsequently been able to experience. Wish I could articulate why. Not to beat a dead horse but if it was a $55 public and Lawsonia was an inaccessible private, I might have this something close to a push.
I know - I've lost my mind. Please indulge me.
Bogey
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I wonder what the 18th fairway looked like in 1929. Were those big trees in the fairway?
Pat, how did you play the 9th? That is such an uncomfortable decision. In my two plays, I have hooked a driver into the sand with the pin down below, and laid up and hit a good wedge and made par with the pin on top. The pin location has a lot of variety and impact on how you play your tee shot.
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This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html).
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint.jpg)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint-18thholeproposal.jpg)
I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).
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Is the 17th a good hole? From the pictures it appears extremely awkward.
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16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.
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I wonder what the 18th fairway looked like in 1929. Were those big trees in the fairway?
Good question
Pat, how did you play the 9th? That is such an uncomfortable decision. In my two plays, I have hooked a driver into the sand with the pin down below, and laid up and hit a good wedge and made par with the pin on top. The pin location has a lot of variety and impact on how you play your tee shot.
Very uncomfortable.
I walked onto the tee with a driver as I had been driving the ball well, albeit with a slight, uninvited fade.
The hole was cut far left
I watched as one fellow hit an iron, another drove it far right, then he drove a provisional far left, with the other fellow driving it in the fairway.
I stood there for a while trying to decide if I should take an iron or hit my driver. I finally decided to hit my driver and drove it in the fairway about 20 yards short of the green, leaving me a cute little shot over the huge bunker from an uphill lie.
I choked down on my L-Wedge too much and didn't clear the bunker. I then hit a very good bunker shot to 4 feet but was annoyed that I didn't have a birdie putt after that drive.
That tee shot is especially intimidating because you've had nothing but very wide fairways for the first 8 holes and now you have to thread the eye of the needle.
A really great short hole that can put a big number on your score card.
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Is the 17th a good hole? From the pictures it appears extremely awkward.
No, it's a VERY good hole with the wind playing a significant role in the play of the hole.
One of the beauties of the hole is that the closer you go to the Pacific, the better the angle of attack into the green
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Bryan,
What year was the top aerial taken as there are no bunkers at the right corner of the dogleg on 18.
NO ONE is going to alter any hole MacKenzie designed.
Although, I do believe that elevating the18th tee a few feet would provide the golfer with a view of the DZ
This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html).
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint.jpg)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint-18thholeproposal.jpg)
I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).
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MClutterbuck,
How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?
How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?
16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.
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Bryan,
Then new 18th hole looks really cool with the strategic options off the tee. What I don't understand is if you take the aggressive line over the bunker you seem to get rewarded with a worse angle into the green. The green side bunkers would seem more appropriately placed right of the green imo. I have never played CPC for the record. I agree with Pat that I doubt they would ever change it. Thanks for posting
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MClutterbuck,
How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?
How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?
16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.
Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.
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MClutterbuck,
How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?
How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?
16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.
Is it narrower and more constrained than # 9 ?
Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.
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MClutterbuck,
How is # 18 out of character with# 14 ?
How does the approach shot differ from any of the other holes ?
16 and 17 are great holes, but I believe 1-15 to be as good as 16-17 or better. It seems to me AM had more flexibility 1 through 15 to create and was more constrained on 16-17 and gave us what nature allowed. CPC is the best course I have played, even though 18 to me is not a good hole and is out of character with the rest.
Is it narrower and more constrained than # 9 ?
Pat, my feeling is 18 is a lot more constrained and narrow on the drive specially. It is less strategic.
My feeling is it was. I did not measure. I was comfortable in every hole off the tee except for 16 and 18. This was my experience, which of course is limited.
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I was also uncomfortable standing on the tee.
Once in the DZ, the approach shot fits perfectly with the rest of the golf course.
I think the hole would be more "in character" if the DZ was visible and if you didn't have to drive into/over a tree.
As Kalen inquired, I wonder how that hole looked from the tee in 1929
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My biggest issue with #18 was that it was out of character with the rest of the course in that its a "hit it straight or else" kinda deal as opposed to the other holes where options are-a-plenty.
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PM,
I'm not sure what year that pic was taken but it was 2010 or earlier. Another bunker that's missing in the pic is the one near the trees in the middle of the fairway on 17. I remember that one b/c I had trouble escaping it my first go around. You 100% correct. No one will ever touch the 18th (although I love the look of that rendition). If you've ever wandered out in that area, it's almost amazing he didn't do it that way. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he originally wanted to put the tee out on that rock outcropping. I have no clue.
Bryan,
What year was the top aerial taken as there are no bunkers at the right corner of the dogleg on 18.
NO ONE is going to alter any hole MacKenzie designed.
Although, I do believe that elevating the18th tee a few feet would provide the golfer with a view of the DZ
This discussion reminded me of a topic from 5 years ago, one of my favorites:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43897.0.html).
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint.jpg)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff203/bsdesign/Golf%20courses/cypresspoint-18thholeproposal.jpg)
I spent a couple nights above the clubhouse a few years back and walked that area one afternoon. I'm sure many people have had a similar idea, although I doubt there will ever be a greens committee or president there that will even attempt something so grand (or sacrilegious).
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BC,
Although it's not my design, my recollection is that the area between the clubhouse and the new green is pretty steeply pitched. I'm assuming the designer is "rewarding" an aggressive line down the left side with an iron shot that can be chased in from the right side of the green without having to carry a bunker. It may be that the hillside just right of the green is steep enough to chase a ball onto the putting surface (somewhat like the hill short and right of the green on 11 at ANGC). If you take the right route off the tee, the iron shot has carry that bunker on the right. The hill right of the green would also seem to be less help the further right you're coming from (also like #11). Of course none of this applies to tour players that would be hitting driver wedge. That's just my interpretation. I do get where you're coming from but you would have to ask the designer what he was thinking. They're never gonna change it but it's worth discussing since they're are so many different opinions on it.
Bryan,
Then new 18th hole looks really cool with the strategic options off the tee. What I don't understand is if you take the aggressive line over the bunker you seem to get rewarded with a worse angle into the green. The green side bunkers would seem more appropriately placed right of the green imo. I have never played CPC for the record. I agree with Pat that I doubt they would ever change it. Thanks for posting
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I've heard the suggestion that CPC follows Raynor's routing. If that can ever be shown true, shouldn't Raynor get co-credit (at least) for designing the course?
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Bryan,
You're correct, the area behind the clubhouse is very steeply sloped, rendering the proposed revision of # 18 valid only in a two dimensional world.
But, with some creativity, it might work, like the banked slope on # 6.
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it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.
Yes, 18 great holes.
I can't help but wonder is The Good Doctor sacrificed 17 and 18 at the altar of 15 and 16. Take a good look at the 17th fairway and ask yourself what percentage of the driving zone leaves one totally blocked on the approach. Mackenzie even doubled down with bunkers in the trees - or is it trees in the bunker.
Patrick, don't bother defending 17 and 18. But I challenge you to support your contention that 7, 10 and 14 are great. That's giving a couple of other holes a pass as well.
Bogey
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One can't help but fall in love with Cypress Point. It's a rare combination of beauty and promiscuity (in the sense of ease of scoring).
Patrick, how many under were you?
Bogey
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Mike,
17 is a great hole. Lots of strategy and lots of different ways it can be played....it really is fantastic
The only thing it has now, that it didn't before was mature Cypress trees. In pictures they don't look very big but you have to be quite aways behind them to get a lofted iron up and over them.
As for #18, the only thing I can say I like on the hole is the green complex, all the rest of it....not so much.
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i can't imagine 18 was a bad hole when it was built
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it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.
Yes, 18 great holes.
I can't help but wonder is The Good Doctor sacrificed 17 and 18 at the altar of 15 and 16.
Not in the least.
But, tell us, what would you do after walking off of the 14th green ?
The double par 3's are brilliant and 17 remains a terrific hole.
You're all wet on this one.
Take a good look at the 17th fairway and ask yourself what percentage of the driving zone leaves one totally blocked on the approach.
In 1929 or today ?
"Totally blocked" ?
Small percentage.
Mackenzie even doubled down with bunkers in the trees - or is it trees in the bunker.
Did he ever visit Pine Valley prior to 1929 ?
Patrick, don't bother defending 17 and 18.
But I challenge you to support your contention that 7, 10 and 14 are great.
7 is a great par 3 and a perfect connector hole from the flats up to the high dune and beyond.
High tee, up to a high green, well protected with bunkers and well sloped.
How else would you go from # 6 green to # 8 tee ?
# 14 is terrific.
You must drive the ball up to the left on that 60 yard wide fairway.
Failure to do so leaves you a blind and very difficult shot over the trees on the right.
The approach to the green gets narrow and the green itself is narrow, protected in front by flanking bunkers with the fear of going long ever present in the golfer's mind.
It's a terrific par 4.
# 10 doesn't match # 2, 5 & 6, but still presents a good three shot challenge with intervening bunkers and a sloped green.
That's giving a couple of other holes a pass as well.
Which ones ?
Bogey
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If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?
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It seems the proposed alternative to 18 would be getting into pretty steep sidehill stuff. Would AM have considered using that land for 18 had he had modern construction equipment available for more aggressive shaping?
I agree nobody would touch AMīs CPC design today (maybe no AM design would be touched today other than lengthening). But if somehow someone found written material indicating such discussion existed and AM would have been intrigued by or favoured such a hole if he had the proper means to make it work, would it be ok to come in and change 18 even if no plans were available?
Certainly would be more politically incorrect than changing #5 at Pebble.
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probably the greatest routing in golf!
and while 18 might be a letdown - how could it not be? - it is not the terrible hole that many say it is
I've played about 630 courses, and if I could only play one course the rest of my life and could choose 1 course, this would be it
*NGLA is 2nd, and haven't played PV or Shinnecock
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I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing. I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes." I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
Ironic that Patrick defends the 14th (a hole I happen to like as I am a fan of funnel holes) by citing the need to play over trees from the right side of the fairway while Kalen cites the ability to play over the trees in the middle of the 17th fairway in their defenses of the respective holes. That's not a typical argument made here by the cognoscenti.
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole. While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great." I'll go with some very good holes: 1, 4, 6, and 13.
I'm not nitpicking Patrick (though it is quite recreational and therapeutic) but I don't see Cypress Point Club as a collection of great holes. In totality it is a great course.
Again I'll ask you Patrick: What did you shoot?
Me? 84 a few years back.
Bogey
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Based on overhead views of the hole and rock island, the hole would extend from 365 to about 425. I confirmed this by looking back at the Shackleford book which mentioned the island would add at least 50 yards to it's 365 yard length. Google earth measurements were right at 60 yards. The line would be a bit more of a dogleg right, assuming the parking area next to the tee was not there at the time. That would make the tee shot about 320 to the left bunker and 285 to the right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole.
(http://i.imgur.com/MGXytne.jpg)
This is what the second shot would look like from that approximate tee shot
(http://i.imgur.com/BuJdmeL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2Qrcw1W.jpg)
The book also mentioned the long left bunker as being more directional to aim the golfer up the fairway towards the green. Based on the measurements, that makes perfect sense. I doubt we would hear many complaints about the hole if that tee box had gotten built, especially with the cool factor of it being on a rock island in the ocean and the fact that it would have been an extremely difficult finishing hole. The walk back to the tee would be one of the 3 or 4 best in golf in my opinion. Here's a couple of pics of the island.
(http://i.imgur.com/E9ieXO2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Tvv5KdD.jpg)
If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?
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I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing. I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes." I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
Ironic that Patrick defends the 14th (a hole I happen to like as I am a fan of funnel holes) by citing the need to play over trees from the right side of the fairway while Kalen cites the ability to play over the trees in the middle of the 17th fairway in their defenses of the respective holes. That's not a typical argument made here by the cognoscenti.
Bogey,
First, I didn't defend the hole by citing the need to play over the trees if the golfer should drive his ball off line to the right.
Hitting to the far right side of that wide fairway is clearly an errant drive that's incrementally punished.
The trees on the right are an integral element in shaping the golfer's drive.
Think of them as being akin to a large dune that the golfer must traverse should he hit an errant drive.
The two situations are entirely different.
The physical properties of the holes and trees differ significantly.
The trees on # 17 are but 90 yards from the green which allows the golfer to play over or around them without much difficulty. I did so with an 8 iron, hitting over the right side of the trees.
Only a moron would equate the two ;D
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole.
While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
Not at all.
Ignoring the function of a hole in determining it's architectural value is a mistake amateurs like yourself often make. ;D
It is a great hole in its entirety, (function and play).
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great." I'll go with some very good holes: 1, 4, 6, and 13.
# 1 is a great opening hole.
You go from the protection of the clubhouse and trees out into the flats and then up to the elevated, well protected, sloped green. It's a terrific introductory hole.
# 4 is a sensational par 4, how do you not see it's architectural values ?
#6 perhaps not a great par 5, but, certainly a very good one.
# 13 is a great short par 4.
The tee shot into the fairway with the large right side/cross bunker and then the approach to the green saddled into the footpad of # 1green and # 14 tee.
It's one of the most photographed/painted holes in golf
It didn't get that notoriety for nothing.
I'm not nitpicking Patrick (though it is quite recreational and therapeutic) but I don't see Cypress Point Club as a collection of great holes. In totality it is a great course.
I'm curious to know how a great course can be made up of holes that aren't great ? ? ?
Care to explain ?
Again I'll ask you Patrick: What did you shoot?
5,5,3,4,5,4,4,3,4,5,5,5,4,4,3,3,4,5.
# 6 played as a par 4 due to fairway bunker construction
The greens were a little slower for a few reasons, one being that it
was wet when we teed off at 7:00.
Me? 84 a few years back.
That's why you probably didn't recognize the "greatness" in so many holes ;D
Bogey
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Again, you defend the 13th by citing the fact that it's photogenic? And notorious?
As for #1 you must have a hedge fixation. BTW I made 3 there from 2 feet.
Next I expect you to brag that none of the bunkers on 5 can be seen when looking backward from the green.
Admit it Patrick - you're just another sap who fell in love. Nothing wrong with that. No sir.
Bogey
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Again, you defend the 13th by citing the fact that it's photogenic? And notorious?
Bogie, you have so much to learn.
WHY is it photogenic ?
Could it be that it's the way the green is saddled into the combined footpad of # 1 green and # 14 tee ?
Could it be because of how well protected it is by the surrounding bunkering and the wind ?
Could it be the combination of those factors ?
As for #1 you must have a hedge fixation. BTW I made 3 there from 2 feet.
You must have been playing the Ladies tees ;D
I didn't hit a solid drive and had 180 into a breeze and uphill.
Hit it into the right side bunker.
Nothing gets you started like birdieing the first hole.
As Arnold Palmer said, "If you don't birdie # 1, you can't birdie all 18".
Next I expect you to brag that none of the bunkers on 5 can be seen when looking backward from the green.
That is pretty neat.
Admit it Patrick - you're just another sap who fell in love. Nothing wrong with that. No sir.
This wasn't my first time playing CPC.
I've been playing there since the late 60's.
My appreciation for the genius of the design/routing just grows
with repeat play.
It's one of those courses that you can play every day and never tire of it.
And, it's one of those courses with wide fairways that still retains a sufficient challenge.
It plays alot longer than the 65,24/6,294 on the card.
The air is heavy and the breeze and elevations combine to make it play longer.
I think one of the advantages that the ODG's had was that they weren't confined to "balance" when it comes to the nines and par, as they seem to be today.
I think AM found the best holes, first.
CPC is one of the few courses with back to back par 5's and unbalanced nines.
Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
P.S. You didn't answer my question.
How can a great golf course not be comprised of great
holes ?
Bogey
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Patrick, I assume even in New Jorsee there's the old saying: The whole is better than the sum of the parts.
Btw, I popped my drive up on the first and hit a 5-wood to two feet.
And yes, I cannot enjoy a golf course any more than I did Cypress Point Club. I am beyond fortunate to have played there.
I see that, like your boy Trump, you won't back down so I'm calling it quits here.
Mike
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If #7 isn't a GREAT hole, then there is no such thing.
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Here's a Dec. 1925 Golf Illustrated image showing a marker for the 18th tee out on one of the rocks. Note that the piece doesn't indicate who the architect was at that point. I don't know the timing of exactly when AM was involved, but a May 1926 article notes plans for him to lay out the course (in the future tense). Perhaps the tee in this image was Raynor's idea.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Cypress%20Point%2018th%20-%20Golf%20Illustrated%20Dec.%201925_zpskp7p74kj.png)
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I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing. I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes." I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole. While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great." I'll go with some very good holes: 1, 4, 6, and 13.
I agree on the 1st, 4th and 6th. The 3rd isn't that great except for the bunkering.
Not sure I agree that Augusta is routed better than CPC. In total I also think CPC has more great holes than ANGC. I'm playing at CPC next week with a person who is a member at both who has a very good eye. I'll ask him.
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I too also wouldn't call #1, #6, or #10 "great" holes....in addition to the red-headed stepchild 18.
However the other holes totally make up for it....and are fantastic.
P.S. Unlike other points of view, I thought the 13th and 14th were both terrific.....
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I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing. I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes." I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole. While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great." I'll go with some very good holes: 1, 4, 6, and 13.
I agree on the 1st, 4th and 6th. The 3rd isn't that great except for the bunkering.
Not sure I agree that Augusta is routed better than CPC. In total I also think CPC has more great holes than ANGC. I'm playing at CPC next week with a person who is a member at both who has a very good eye. I'll ask him.
Happy to fill in if someone gets a flat tire or something on the way... ;)
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Sven,
It was Raynor who suggested the tee on the rock island
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Sven,
It was Raynor who suggested the tee on the rock island
Pat:
I was just looking back through the Mackenzie timeline to figure out the timing. Seeing as he didn't arrive in the US until Jan. of 1926, it must have been Raynor.
Really wish whoever has that Raynor routing would show it to the world.
Sven
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Really wish whoever has that Raynor routing would show it to the world.
Sven
Assume for the moment that Raynor came up with the routing the Mackenzie ended up using. (Suggesting the 18th tee on the rock at least hints at that.) Where do you think Raynor, had he finished the course, would have put the templates... and how would the course have turned out compared to what we see today? I'm guessing the bunkering style would have been totally different. Probably their placement as well.
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I've been lucky enough to have played Cypress Point on many occasions, with 1983 being the first. I have never played another course like it with so many variations. To play the inland holes that are beautifully sculpted, then play the holes throughout the sand dunes, with the remaining holes playing toward and on the ocean, is so unique.
It is truly my favorite place to play golf and part of that is because of the setting and surrounding areas. It is such a peaceful place and I've never had that feeling any other place I've traveled to. I've had people ask me if it is the best 18 holes of golf I've ever played and I would have to say no. There are some holes out there that I think are good, but not great. It's the overall experience that elevates everything, but I agree with some other posters that holes #3, #4, #6, and #11 are good, but nothing special.
On the other hand, holes like #7, #8, #9, and of course holes #13 - #17 are all world holes.
When I think of the best 18 holes I've ever played, Sand Hills is the overwhelming favorite for me. JMO
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Scott,
Given the choice of playing only one course for the rest of your life, would it be Sand Hills or CPC ?
CPC would get my vote.
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The interesting thing about Cypress is the option between the heroic shots and the conservative shots. If a golfer was looking to compile a score, the conservative choice should come up trumps all of the time, yet it's such a thrill to play there the golfer is lured into the excitement of the heroic shot all of the time.
For example, taking a tight line over the dune on 8, hitting driver off 9, going for the green on 16, hitting driver to the left of the trees on 17, these feel like heroic shots to me whereas the smart play dictates a tee shot left on 8, a mid iron off 9, a lay up on 16 and a long iron short of the trees on 17.
Other examples include hitting a raking hook off the 6th tee.
Does anyone else feel like this? I always hit driver off 9, it's just such a thrill if it comes off, it's not that exhilarating hitting a 6 iron off it or laying up on 16.
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Scott,
Given the choice of playing only one course for the rest of your life, would it be Sand Hills or CPC ?
CPC would get my vote.
Pat, I'd take CPC in a heartbeat. As I mentioned before it's the whole package. I love Sand Hills and it is a place dear to my heart, but it's a completely different animal. When I've been lucky enough to go to Cypress, it's everything about the area that makes it just that much more special. The air you breathe, the fog in the morning that always burns off by about the 5th or 6th hole, the anticipation of getting to the sandy dune holes and then working your way toward 17 mile drive. I haven't played a ton of courses, but it is the only one that for some reason I get there and I am at my happiest when it comes to golf experiences. Nothing puts a bigger smile on my face than entering 17 mile drive knowing what awaits. I think about all the courses that are so hard to get on, especially since most require that you play with a member, and I don't know any of them, but somehow Cypress just worked out. If I never get a chance to play Pine Valley, Shinnecock, National, Seminole, Oakmont, etc., I still think I got the luckiest break in the world to have played Cypress Point on occassion. Wouldn't trade any of the visits I've had there for any other place.
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Padraig,
I think the dilemma the traveling golfer faces is:
Did I travel 3,000+ miles to play this special course and play "conservative"
I took it over the tree on # 8 and hit driver on # 9 and driver again on # 16 and intended to hit my driver left of the trees on # 17 but I hit a slight cut and found myself partially blocked on # 17.
While I didn't hit particularly good drives on # 1, 2, and 4, I did hit good drives on # 5 and 6 and that was the key to my decision on # 8 and 9.
Had I not hit good drives on #'s 5 & 6 I'm not so sure that I would have been so aggressive.
It took me until today to figure out why I've been fading the ball with my driver.
Golfers need to constantly evaluate the fundamentals because it's so easy to fall into habits that negatively impact our games.
My game remains a work in progress.
The interesting thing about Cypress is the option between the heroic shots and the conservative shots. If a golfer was looking to compile a score, the conservative choice should come up trumps all of the time, yet it's such a thrill to play there the golfer is lured into the excitement of the heroic shot all of the time.
For example, taking a tight line over the dune on 8, hitting driver off 9, going for the green on 16, hitting driver to the left of the trees on 17, these feel like heroic shots to me whereas the smart play dictates a tee shot left on 8, a mid iron off 9, a lay up on 16 and a long iron short of the trees on 17.
Other examples include hitting a raking hook off the 6th tee.
Does anyone else feel like this? I always hit driver off 9, it's just such a thrill if it comes off, it's not that exhilarating hitting a 6 iron off it or laying up on 16.
The dilemma on # 9 is that the further you lay back, the more difficult your approach.
The same applies to # 8, which is no bargain if you drive far left off the tee.
The Monterey Peninsula is special.
I don't think you can argue with the quote attributed to RLS, that it's the most magnificent meeting of land and sea in the world,
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I took a pretty good look at 18 yesterday. As an added bonus I hit 3 wood-wedge and made birdie.
I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the changes C&C have done on the 18th much less the entire golf course.
C&C either restored or added a new bunker about 125 yards off the tee on the left. I would assume it rarely comes into play and only penalizes horrific shots.
They also enlarged significantly the bunker on the right side of the fairway. You can see the size in the middle B&W photo with Mackenzie walking up the fairway.
Based on overhead views of the hole and rock island, the hole would extend from 365 to about 425. I confirmed this by looking back at the Shackleford book which mentioned the island would add at least 50 yards to it's 365 yard length. Google earth measurements were right at 60 yards. The line would be a bit more of a dogleg right, assuming the parking area next to the tee was not there at the time. That would make the tee shot about 320 to the left bunker and 285 to the right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole.
(http://i.imgur.com/MGXytne.jpg)
This is what the second shot would look like from that approximate tee shot
(http://i.imgur.com/BuJdmeL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2Qrcw1W.jpg)
The book also mentioned the long left bunker as being more directional to aim the golfer up the fairway towards the green. Based on the measurements, that makes perfect sense. I doubt we would hear many complaints about the hole if that tee box had gotten built, especially with the cool factor of it being on a rock island in the ocean and the fact that it would have been an extremely difficult finishing hole. The walk back to the tee would be one of the 3 or 4 best in golf in my opinion. Here's a couple of pics of the island.
(http://i.imgur.com/E9ieXO2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Tvv5KdD.jpg)
If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?
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Agreed that Cypress is so much more than just the ocean holes. But when has it ever been just about the ocean holes, in particular the shot on 16?
The inland holes are spectacular in their own right. I've always been favorable to the fourth hole. I think it's underrated and a great transition into the cypress, tree-lined, holes.
The fifth hole is simply magnificent. The bunkering is big, bold, and majestic, and the way the hole seemlessly tumbles around the corner is brilliant. I love how you can challenge going left to hit the downslope in the fairway, allowing for extra yards off the tee and the chance to go for the green in two.
Six is incredible too, while also being incredibly unique. Do you go right over the bunker and try and get a big kick or even challenge the bunker further left to get around the corner and try for the green in two? The dune as a backdrop to the green is swell and the green itself is subtle and tricky, in my opinion one of the best on the course.
8 and 9 are talked about ad nauseum. They are some of the best short par-4's on the planet, and each completely original even to this day.
10 through 14 all have their special qualities that make them great. The little cookie shack on 11 tee is pretty special too, and nobody makes better oatmeal-raisin cookies.
The opening three holes, too, have strong qualities that make them great. I just love the opening tee shot over 17-mile drive.
Saying Cypress is great just because of 16 and the ocean holes is like saying The Godfather is great simply because of the ending. Surely the ending is great, but it is the sum of a magnificent story that builds up a lot of smaller, great parts together to a climax that seems eloquently yet astonishingly fitting. Similarly , the first fourteen holes at CPC are magnificently crafted and produce a majestic build up to what may be the best three consecutive holes in golf. It would surely be disappointing to have three such fantastic ocean holes follow fourteen average, below-average, or simply good golf holes. Rather, Cypress uses the first fourteen holes to build up the crescendo that are holes 15-17.
What more can you ask for in a golf course?
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Joel,
In looking at your rendering of # 18 with the tee on the rock island, the hole would have to be a par 5 or a par 4 without the current sharp dogleg.
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That's not my rendering but I suspect it would be. Although that piece of the property is so heavily slopped the run off would be tremendous.
I personally don't have a big problem with 18. I do think hitting over a tree on the tee shot is kind of silly. Like many holes at Cypress Point it requires very precise shots, both on the tee shot and 2nd shot.
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Joel,
In looking at your rendering of # 18 with the tee on the rock island, the hole would have to be a par 5 or a par 4 without the current sharp dogleg.
It was my rendering. I measured it using google earth. The hole would be aprox 425 yards from the new tee (365 from the current tee). I redid my earlier rendition and took out some of the trees on the left side of the fairway and all of the trees next to the current tee. I left 2 trees on the left to help keep the integrity of the tee shot on 17. To use the island tee, the public lookout area would have had to never exist or have been shifted more to the east. The hole would be a bit more of a dogleg right. The tee shot would now be about 320 to the far left bunker and 285 to the far right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole (from about the area of the star in the second pic). If this was his first choice for the hole, I think it goes from a possible weak link to a strong and memorable finish.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/bdrennon/cp%2018.jpg)
It looks like a
(http://i.imgur.com/BuJdmeL.jpg)
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The other problem with that island tee is the "duck-hook" danger zone it would create for people approaching 17 green.....but then again it is Cypress so they probably don't have too many issues with a packed tee sheet! ;)
Additionally, that parking lot would have to be moved or a large fence constructed to protect cars from getting pelted..
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Kalen,
I was in that parking lot less than a year ago. There is a fence and thick row of trees between 18 and the parking lot that probably got removed in the rendering. Everyone else was snapping pix of some lone cypress. I was trying to catch a glimpse of CPC (unsuccessfully). Don't know where you'd move the lot given real estate values.
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Kalen,
I was in that parking lot less than a year ago. There is a fence and thick row of trees between 18 and the parking lot that probably got removed in the rendering. Everyone else was snapping pix of some lone cypress. I was trying to catch a glimpse of CPC (unsuccessfully). Don't know where you'd move the lot given real estate values.
This is what it actually looks like now. Those trees weren't there in the 30's, although it looks like the lot was there but unpaved. Check out the historical aerial http://golfcoursehistories.com/CPC.html (http://golfcoursehistories.com/CPC.html). I'm not sure if it was owned by the club or if it was always some kind of public lookout point. If you look at it now, there's no way to have a tee box on the island if that parking lot was originally there. I assume it wasn't but it would be interesting to find out. We know the island was staked for a tee box even before Mackenzie arrived on the property. Maybe the lookout point was a contributing factor to them not building the tee box.
(http://i.imgur.com/MGXytne.jpg)
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Bryan,
I thought I read in the book on CPC that they were concerned how well a bridge out to that point would hold up in a storm and so they decided not to do it on that basis, but I could be recalling that wrong.
P.S I do think a tee box out there would be epic, and would be the cherry on the top to the amazing CPC experience....
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Last week we asked the member who's been there 35 years if the club has ever considered building the bridge and tee. He said to his knowledge it's never been discussed.
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Joel, Kalen, Bryan, et. al.,
The fact is that a tee and bridge could NEVER be built today because the club has made concessions to authorities which preclude that from ever happening.
The discussion of the tee and bridge should only be in the context of Raynor's remarks.
Had Raynor's suggestion been pursued, there would be no parking lot, etc, etc..
The question I posed is: How would the hole have been configured ?
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Some tree removal on the left side would do wonders on 18...
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Bryan,
I thought I read in the book on CPC that they were concerned how well a bridge out to that point would hold up in a storm and so they decided not to do it on that basis, but I could be recalling that wrong.
P.S I do think a tee box out there would be epic, and would be the cherry on the top to the amazing CPC experience....
You're correct about the storm concerns. I was only offering that as a contributing factor. My rendering was directed at Pat's question "How would the hole have been configured". By using google earth overhead shots, it leaves little doubt as to what the hole would have looked like (minus some tree clearing that I guessed on). Everything else is already in place, ie bunkering, green site and even the placement of the tee (the island). No one is saying that it could be done now. I'm sure there's a zero percent chance of it, even considering the powerful membership. We were only investigating the idea of what the hole would look like if it would have been built with Raynor's tee box using the current hole configuration.
current 18th (no trees removed)
(http://i.imgur.com/MGXytne.jpg)
Rendering of "new" 18th hole. The only changes are removal of the trees next to the parking lot (which would have never been built and were planted sometime after the course opened) and a few of the trees on the left side of the fairway (my opinion of what might have been removed). All current bunkers and green site remain unchanged and in the same place. I left a couple of the trees on left side to help keep the integrity of tee shot on 17.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/bdrennon/cp%2018.jpg)
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Bryan,
The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.
It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion
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Bryan,
The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.
It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion
So maybe the club wouldn't have planted all those trees now in the fairway?
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Bryan,
The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.
It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion
I agree that it would have been too tough from that tee as is. Even if you left the routing intact, you would at least need to take out most of the trees down the right side. If you only used it as a current day "back or pro" tee, then the design would be fine as is. The 425 yard distance would not have been too long in Raynor's day, but you would have needed about 235 uphill to carry the short left bunker. I think if you take out the short left bunker, a couple of trees on the left and all of the trees on the right that are around the long right bunker, it could work. It would make it more of a slight dogleg right. Something like this.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/bdrennon/cp%2018%20no%20bunker.jpg)
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Bryan,
The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.
It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion
So maybe the club wouldn't have planted all those trees now in the fairway?
I agree except that they do need a couple of those trees on the left to keep long hitters from driving it into the fairway on 18 from 17 tee.
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Bryan,
Given the year, weather and the equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if the hole would have been a par 5.
Hard to imagine it as a par 4 from that island tee.
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Is it possible to get a photo of what the tee shot looks like from the rock?
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Was lucky enough to play CPC last week-I am still on cloud nine. I can't imagine a more perfect golf course, a combination of fun to play and challenging. It is rare that I play a golf course for the the first time and remember every hole, every shot-like I did with CPC. So many incredible holes following the natural contours, 2, 7, 9, 14 and 17 are holes that comes to mind that just follow the land. Personally I even l loved 18. You have to hit a perfect tee shot with precise line and distance. Yes, I hit a perfect 4 hybrid then a 9 iron to 20 feet below the hole, so maybe I am biased.
BTW, driver into the wind on 16 to 30 feet for a low stress two putt par. Perhaps the greatest shot I have even hit given the circumstances.