Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on August 23, 2015, 06:27:33 PM
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Is really spectacular and the drought may have benefited them I that the off areas don't need to be maintained.
The course is in terrific condition and is a must for "golfers" within a two hour drive.
This is a course I could play 36, every day and never tire of it.
The green complexes provide innumerable, challenging hole locations, the bunkering is incredibly creative, visually stunning and highly functional.
It's got to be one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play
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+1. Looking forward to a return game in 5 wks
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+1. Looking forward to a return game in 5 wks
Jack,
Not only was the course, conditions and weather great, but we played in under 4:00 hours and if it wasn't for a group of hackers two foursomes ahead of us, we would have played in 3 hours.
You're going to really enjoy the course.
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spot on Patrick, Pasa is terrific
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+1. Looking forward to a return game in 5 wks
Jack,
Not only was the course, conditions and weather great, but we played in under 4:00 hours and if it wasn't for a group of hackers two foursomes ahead of us, we would have played in 3 hours.
You're going to really enjoy the course.
Pat, my last visit was about 8 yrs ago for a Kibgs Putter Event. Shivas and I got thrashed by Bob Huntley and Ed Getka- it was a fun day to say the least. Your comment re: the set of par 3s . I can't think of many courses with a set as solid as Pasa- you use a different club on each of them.
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Is really spectacular and the drought may have benefited them I that the off areas don't need to be maintained.
The course is in terrific condition and is a must for "golfers" within a two hour drive.
This is a course I could play 36, every day and never tire of it.
The green complexes provide innumerable, challenging hole locations, the bunkering is incredibly creative, visually stunning and highly functional.
It's got to be one of the most enjoyable golf courses you could ever play
I agree with you Pat. I think it just an outstanding golf course.
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What amazes me is that the property is not without its challenges.
Yet AM utilized the ravines masterfully and created 18 brilliant holes
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Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is? If not what courses have a better 9?
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What amazes me is that the property is not without its challenges.
Yet AM utilized the ravines masterfully and created 18 brilliant holes
I can't think of another course that uses such a feature more frequently and in such a variety of ways. Think about how you confront the barranca at 10, 11 and 12, it's different every time. New challenges await at 15, 16 and 18.
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Pat, now you know why this wonderful course has served as a touchstone for so many here on GCA in their discovery of what great golf architecture is really all about. I'll be playing it again in about 2 months for the 7th time and I still get jacked up about teeing it up there.
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One of the great things about Pasatiempo is the cool weather that generally prevails. It's a good walk, energetic to the point of cardio at times, but always walkable.
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I love Passy. One of my favorites. But I think it has 3 weak holes in 6-7-8. What could be done to improve these holes? It would improve the stature of the place.
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Nothing weak about no. 8, IMHO. And the green complex at no. 7 is fantastic; the tee shot is pretty good, too. The second shot at No. 6 is admittedly weak given the constraints of the housing, AM's among them, and the trees, planted in the late '40s when a player was killed by a tee shot from no. 7. Again, however, the green complex is much better than average.
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I love Passy. One of my favorites. But I think it has 3 weak holes in 6-7-8. What could be done to improve these holes? It would improve the stature of the place.
The only problem with 6 and 7 is the trees between the fairways. Both good holes but the corridors are tight. The 8th? Keep the ball below the hole. That's the steepest green I've played on a shortish par 3.
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I love Passy. One of my favorites. But I think it has 3 weak holes in 6-7-8. What could be done to improve these holes? It would improve the stature of the place.
Interested in hearing what you consider weak about 8? That green complex can be an adventure.
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I love Passy. One of my favorites. But I think it has 3 weak holes in 6-7-8. What could be done to improve these holes? It would improve the stature of the place.
Interested in hearing what you consider weak about 8? That green complex can be an adventure.
Last time I played the hole I hit a super iron to 6' to a way back pin. Three putts. The front half of the green is 8%, the way back is that or more. Scary green.
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I don't want to criticize the course, because I love it. But I feel like I'm in a bowling alley playing #7, and I think the green on #8, that some of you seem to love, is absurd. Difficult is fine; unplayable is not. And, the netting on the left, and dense trees on the right, of #6 are too bad.
I just think those 3 holes drag down an otherwise incredibly good course. Short of cutting down the trees (which would never be approved by the authorities), and blowing up the #8 green, there is probably nothing that can be done.
But I don't want to turn this post extolling Pasatiempo into something critical. The rest of the course is great. I agree with Pat that few courses are more fun to play. Don't take a little mild criticism as anything major. I just wonder if anything could be done to improve these holes.
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Jim,
Agree on # 6.
I wonder if the hole was different on opening day as the homes to the left and behind the green seem to give the hole it's confining nature.
We also wondered about the bunker cut into the right hillside about 80 yards off the tee. Was that an original (we thought it was) or a subsequent amendment ?
I love the 7th green and surrounds, but attribute safety concerns as the cause of the bowling alley fairway. Without those tall trees lining the fairway, the hole would be improved
I also like 8, but think you have to be careful on green speeds.
I'm anxious to play the entire body of work by the good Doctor in the U.S.
In discussions with my foursome, we felt that in addition to TOC, that PV, NGLA, CPC, Pasatiempo, ANGC and Seminole should be on every aspiring architect's list of toured courses.
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Pasatiempo is a very special golf course and the first place I ever took a step back to appreciate golf course architecture. I believe that the drought could drastically change the way the course is playing. It could play soft depending on the time of year, especially since the fog often is a presence and it can be cool even in the summer.
The green speeds at any given time can make certain holes at Pasatiempo almost unplayable. That would be my only critique of the course. Holes like #8, 11, 16, and 18 can be incredibly treacherous when the greens are fast. Much of the fun of playing Pasatiempo are the wonderful green complexes,but there is nothing enjoyable about having putts roll off the green. Thankfully, I only played there a few times where conditions were like that.
All that being said, it is one of my all time favorites.
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The bunker 80 yds off the 6 tee was part of the original design, lost over time, then restored by Doak/Urbina. Someone once suggested to me its original purpose was as a site line from 5 tee. Don't know about that.
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Pat, not to get this thread off course, but as you play the Good Doctor's courses, don't forget Meadow Club--across the Golden Gate Bridge. I played it a few years ago--and just played it again 3 times recently. Mike DeVries did a lot of restoration there--and did a very good job. It is also a very enjoyable, 365-day-a-year course. Maybe not quite of the caliber of Passy, but very good.
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"Maybe not quite of the caliber of Passy, but very good."
Jim H. -
Yes, the Meadow Club is very good indeed. A wonderful members' course.
DT
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Meadow Club was AM's 1st U.S. course.
Marion Hollins was AM's Mike Keiser at Pasatiempo.
When is Mike going to a tribute to AM? Can you think of anyone better than Jim Urbina to spear head that project?
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Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is? If not what courses have a better 9?
I agree. I think the back 9 is as good as there is anywhere in the world. Each hole presents a new challenge and are still incredibly fun, all while being immensely walkable.
I also agree that 6-7-8 kind of bring down the course a bit (from a very lofty perch) 6 especially being the lone par 5 on the front. I also wonder how much the encroaching housing affected those holes. A bit more width on 6 might help all three from feeling so scrunched in.
I also think 1 is a bit weak but not awful. Just not to the standards of the course.
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The green speeds at any given time can make certain holes at Pasatiempo almost unplayable. That would be my only critique of the course. Holes like #8, 11, 16, and 18 can be incredibly treacherous when the greens are fast. Much of the fun of playing Pasatiempo are the wonderful green complexes,but there is nothing enjoyable about having putts roll off the green.
Agree. In theory, if they want to keep green speeds fast, could they rebuild those greens (at least #8 and #18 and maybe #9) to have similar contours, but less grade/slope?
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The green speeds at any given time can make certain holes at Pasatiempo almost unplayable. That would be my only critique of the course. Holes like #8, 11, 16, and 18 can be incredibly treacherous when the greens are fast. Much of the fun of playing Pasatiempo are the wonderful green complexes,but there is nothing enjoyable about having putts roll off the green.
Agree. In theory, if they want to keep green speeds fast, could they rebuild those greens (at least #8 and #18 and maybe #9) to have similar contours, but less grade/slope?
Astavrides,
That shouldn't be a criticism of the course, that should be a criticism of modern day maintenance practices.
Haven't we seen WFW, PV and Merion disfigured in order to accommodate higher green speeds.
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Jim,
I've heard good things about The Meadow Club and the Cal Club and had planned to visit in Oct/Nov, but those plans have fallen through.
Unfortunately, I played the Valley Club so long ago that I remember very little of it.
I'm fascinated by AM's work and especially his bunkering
He inserted so many of his bunkers, seamlessly, into the natural terrain as opposed to forcing them onto the land
Pat, not to get this thread off course, but as you play the Good Doctor's courses, don't forget Meadow Club--across the Golden Gate Bridge. I played it a few years ago--and just played it again 3 times recently. Mike DeVries did a lot of restoration there--and did a very good job. It is also a very enjoyable, 365-day-a-year course. Maybe not quite of the caliber of Passy, but very good.
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Pat, glad you were able to get there and appreciate it.
I agree Pasa is an understated gem. The use of natural surrounds incorporated within the course is one to be studied.
Also, finishing with a par 3 is a testament to the terrain used to route the course, rather than forcing the routing on the terrain.
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Pat, hope you will play the Meadow Club at some point--and the Valley Club as it's been restored and regrassed. I think Pasatiempo, Valley and Meadow are all 3 great courses--showing off whom I consider the greatest golf architect ever. And showing his work with his associate, Robert Hunter.
I would love your opinion of how the 3 rate against each other. Any others played all 3 in, say, the last 2 years? How do you rate them against each other? No fair to comment if it's been more than 2-3 years, as they have all 3 been improved by light, but good, work.
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Since I played it a few years back at KP, I've always felt the back 9 at Pasa is a master class in how to route a course.....
I especially loved how many of the tees and greens and tees all come together near the "10 green, 11 tee, 12 green, 13 tee, 16 green, and 17 tee" interchange...just brilliant
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My favorite pic at Pastiempo, I think near the 14th tee...
(http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag284/Cliff_Hamm/IMG_3007_zpsljrz8nux.jpg)
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I played Pasa for the first time in June - and I was totally taken by surprise. I knew it'd be good, but it was much better than I'd expected. There was no one on the course, and overall it was in fantastic shape (aside from the range which was pretty ugly).
Green complex on 16 might be the best I've ever played.
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I played Pasa for the first time in June - and I was totally taken by surprise. I knew it'd be good, but it was much better than I'd expected. There was no one on the course, and overall it was in fantastic shape (aside from the range which was pretty ugly).
Green complex on 16 might be the best I've ever played.
Sean,
I too played it recently and had about the same reaction as you. Absolutely loved it.
I do wonder about 16 though. I know it gets all of the attention, but I found it almost over the top. I thought the greens on 4, 5, 7, 12, 13 were all better complexes than 16. But that's half the beauty of Pasa, you could pick any single green complex and say it was your favorite and it would be defensible.
After looking back, I think you could even make the case for 17.
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Pat, hope you will play the Meadow Club at some point--and the Valley Club as it's been restored and regrassed. I think Pasatiempo, Valley and Meadow are all 3 great courses--showing off whom I consider the greatest golf architect ever. And showing his work with his associate, Robert Hunter.
I would love your opinion of how the 3 rate against each other. Any others played all 3 in, say, the last 2 years? How do you rate them against each other? No fair to comment if it's been more than 2-3 years, as they have all 3 been improved by light, but good, work.
I last played the Meadow Club more than three years ago but after the excellent work Mike DeVries did.
I have played Pasatiempo many times but not since Tom Doak and Jim Urbina changed the back of the 11th green. (Side note: why not just slow down the greens to ~9?). I have seen the earlier work such as 10.
I have played the Valley Club regularly for many years including twice this last February. Great work to conserve water and greatly expand the closely mown areas.
Here are my thoughts:
I would objectively rank the three Pasatiempo 1, Valley 2, Meadow 3. I think Pasa has the most dramatic holes and a wonderful back nine. The other two are very close, intimate in great settings and both more an experience of an 18 hole flow rather than a collection of holes that includes some gems.
Pasatiempo gets points off because of the residences encircling the course, too closely in some places. Valley has a handful, the Meadow is a pristine routing.
Meadow has some back and forth parallel holes on the second nine, mostly surrounded by the front nine in a semi-Muirfield routing.
All three have brilliant greens that range from "be very cautious about being above the hole" to "terrifying." Pasatiempo's 8th and 16th are probably the most frightening of the three sets.
All in all, this is a very close thing. If anything, the Meadow Club is very underrated.
I'd love to play any on a regular basis.
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Hole 16
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/Pasatiempo%2016_1.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/wcb323/media/Pasatiempo%2016_1.jpg.html)
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Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is? If not what courses have a better 9?
I also agree that 6-7-8 kind of bring down the course a bit (from a very lofty perch) 6 especially being the lone par 5 on the front.
Not sure if you meant it differently, but 9 is a par 5.
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Pat, did you get the opportunity to interface with the kick plate short right of the green on 2? Great fun.
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Pat, did you get the opportunity to interface with the kick plate short right of the green on 2? Great fun.
David,
I didn't.
The hole was cut far left and I hit a 5-iron to the center of the green, but two other golfers used the right side kick plate to their advantage.
A few greens had kick plates that could help or hurt the golfer.
They make playing Pasatiempo a uniquely fun experience.
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Is the back at Pasatiempo the best 9 holes there is? If not what courses have a better 9?
I also agree that 6-7-8 kind of bring down the course a bit (from a very lofty perch) 6 especially being the lone par 5 on the front.
Not sure if you meant it differently, but 9 is a par 5.
You're right...forgot about 9.
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Lost in this photo are the tiers in the green, with significant elevation changes between those tiers.
The hole was located on the top tier on the day this photo was taken.
There's a distinct fear of going long.
I hit to the middle tier (not intentionally) and was left with a very challenging putt, which I left 6' short. Made the next one.
Hitting to a tier above the tier where the hole is cut almost certainly guarantees a 3 putt, or more.
It's a massive green and the right side bunker is massive and very deep.
The left side bunker is no bargain, but golfers, almost universally, have to traverse the deep right side bunker.
Hole 16
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/Pasatiempo%2016_1.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/wcb323/media/Pasatiempo%2016_1.jpg.html)
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Just a tip that a member gave me for your first time at Pasa. After you park, walk down to the 18th green and take a good look. What you see from the tee will fool you. Then walk across the road and past the halfway house to the 9th green and do the same. The pin location may influence where you try to place your second shot; you don't want to be hitting blind into this green.
(I also always peek at 17 green when walking up 10 and check out the 16th green before teeing off on 11 as well.)
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Just a tip that a member gave me for your first time at Pasa. After you park, walk down to the 18th green and take a good look. What you see from the tee will fool you. Then walk across the road and past the halfway house to the 9th green and do the same. The pin location may influence where you try to place your second shot; you don't want to be hitting blind into this green.
(I also always peek at 17 green when walking up 10 and check out the 16th green before teeing off on 11 as well.)
Is 18 uphill? I have found the bunkers short regularly.
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Jason,
# 18 green is downhill, # 9 green is uphill
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Jason,
# 18 green is downhill, # 9 green is uphill
That is what it looks like to me from the tee but I have found the hole to play longer than I expect so I wondered if that was the surprise.
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On the issue of green slopes and green speeds, did anyone catch the comment from Peter Kostis yesterday with regard to the Plainfield CC greens? He said that when they were built by Donald Ross they had 5 stimps and they were wonderful. Today at 11-12, they are absurd. Applies to Pasatiempo?
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On the issue of green slopes and green speeds, did anyone catch the comment from Peter Kostis yesterday with regard to the Plainfield CC greens? He said that when they were built by Donald Ross they had 5 stimps and they were wonderful. Today at 11-12, they are absurd. Applies to Pasatiempo?
Jim,
For many decades, Plainfield had a famous/infamous superintendent, "Red" who kept the greens firm and fast and the rough lush and thick.
Playing in a competition at Plainfield was always a stern test.
In general, Pasatiempo's greens are more steeply sloped than Plainfields.
There is a speed above which a course transitions from being a reasonable competitive test to.......... goofy.
Clubs have to be vigilant and prudent in determining their appropriate green speeds.
On # 11, one of my playing companions hit his third shot a little strong, past the hole and into the upper slope.
We watched as the ball went up the back slope and made a rainbow like turn and in agonizing fashion began rolling back toward the hole, powered only by gravity, until it ended up not far from the hole.
Had his ball gone a little further, into the rough behind the green, there was no way that he could keep that recovery within 20 feet of the hole, at best, unless he tried to play the shot into the rough above and to the left of the pin, but, if that didn't work, it was deja vu all over again.
Reason has to prevail when it comes to green speeds.