Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Dean Stokes on August 15, 2015, 01:57:46 PM
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Why is Whistling Straits so green? It looks like a good golf course on tv but I can't help thinking it would be play more interestingly and look like it fits the land better if it was brown and firm.......
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the dome has a leak ::) ::)
that wasn't a sun delay they had yesterday
or the entire weekend and Monday before
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I think it is green turf dye. Maybe they are hiding the brown and poa to counter the Problems Chamber Bay had. I really highlights all of the different areas of the golf course though.
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Jeff,
I think you're probably, quite rightly, just pointing out that Mother Nature does as she does. You and I tend to be on the same page about this.
However, much as I'm enjoying this event, which is rare for me with televised golf, what do the collective know about watering the course leading into the event? It's an honest question as I really don't know.
Would I be right to think that a degree of conservatism has been employed, following the widespread criticisms of Chambers Bay?
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I didn't realize it had rained...so is it brown and firm when it hasn't rained?
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Just watching the view from the blimp it looks like the tees, fairways and greens are being watered to look that color. It's like a parkland course on "linksy" land.
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My girlfriend just asked me if they have dyed the fairways when they showed the blimp shot!!!! I almost spit my food out!
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Sorry, it rains here in the summer. Global Drowning, maybe! ;)
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Because here in the States, we don't cancel play every time the wind gets above 12 mph in a major. We keep the course just soft enough to stop balls from blowing all over Sheboygan when the breeze freshens.
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Does the blue green fairways affect putting then? The fairways couldn't have been made faster?
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It did rain last night, that tends to make things soft(er) and slow(er).
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Ok so it rained a little. The walkways that the crowds are on don't look muddy which they usually do when it pours rain! The course looks artificially green from the aerial shots and all I am wondering is why. It looks almost fake when all the surrounding areas are scrubland and dry.
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Dean, it's because most people who pay $500 for a round of golf expect to play off turf that's in better condition than "scrubland," at least in the fairways. Kohler is surprisingly warm and humid in the summer and Whistling Straits isn't built on sand. It's not a prime location for browning out the fairways while keeping a healthy sward.
I'm seeing plenty of balls bounce and release despite the deluge that hit yesterday afternoon. We also have one of the most exciting tournaments of the year breaking out, with a stacked leaderboard. I'd encourage you to look past the color of the grass and enjoy the golf, just as I encourage lush and green-loving friends of mine to do the same when we play a firm and fast course.
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I am enjoying every minute of it. As a member of this site and therefore an keen advocate of architecture and course set up I am merely noting that the holes look transplanted from another place onto a sandy scrubby piece of farm land on the banks of a lake where they surely get plenty of breeze to dry a course out. It looks to me like it 'should' be set up differently and I wondered what you all thought. Seems like that offended some of you😉
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Well, you're basically correct. The course is very much a collection of holes transplanted onto a piece of farmland. You can see that on the drive in and from numerous high points on the property. When you play the Straits, you're in an island of faux dunes surrounded by cornfields.
But it's not a sandy and scrubby site. It's almost entirely engineered, and while Dye brought in a lot of sand to fill bunkers and manufacture some movement in the terrain, it doesn't make up for the fact that it's ultimately a links-looking course built on a site with pretty heavy soils. And while the fairways are fescue, it's been discussed here many times that fescue doesn't thrive in conditions that are both warm AND humid, as Wisconsin summers are, and particularly when seeded in soil that isn't especially sandy.
So yeah, it would be great if the course was playing browned out and lightning fast, but it's not especially realistic given the climate limitations. It's just very hard to take fescue to the edge on a site like the Straits without compromising turf sward quality. That said, I don't see much reason to complain about the firmness given the rain they got just yesterday. The course isn't as bouncy as Chambers Bay was, but it's not any softer than The Old Course at The Open.
Just curious, have you read Ran's profile of Whistling Straits under Courses By Country? It gives a good account of the property limitations that Dye faced while building the course and some idea of the engineering effort it took.
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"So yeah, it would be great if the course was playing browned out and lightning fast"
Jason -
I agree with the vast majority of what you have posted here. However I am not sure I agree with the above. Given the sharp edges, steep drop-offs and forced carries (which cannot be found on any links course I know of), Whistling Straits would be virtually unplayable if it was "browned out and lightning fast," especially in a healthy breeze. This is not a links course and was not designed to play like one.
I think the set-up of the course is just about perfect.
DT
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I would like it a little tawny as well, but the setup is great. As Mickelson said the other day, the course/setup rewards good shots, but whacks a player when he's trying to recover from a bad shot. Personally, I'm not a fan of this course and I doubt I'll ever play it again (all fake, too expensive) but it's good theater for these pro players. Green or whatever color...
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Adjust your tv....fixed.
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I freaking love this question. It's called mother nature (it rained, practice rounds and on Friday) and grass is a living and breathing thing. Go to a hot tropical island and stop drinking water...you die quickly. Go to a cooler climate and stop drinking water...you will die but not as quickly. A beautiful woman saves you and gives you water right before you die....your organs will suffer minor or major damage and there will be a road to recovery (days-months).
In the grass world it is a fine line between living and death especially in hot and humid regions with cool season grasses. Now couple that with different soil profiles....sand, sandy loam, topsoil, heavy topsoil, clay, heavy clay and rock. Then put a cart on it or heavy foot traffic. Don't forget the different land features over a 200 acre property. Nothing can be perfect in an imperfect world when mother nature is calling the shots.
As for the fine fescue, it is green in the spring (when temps are cool and wet)....as the summer progresses (heat and periods of drought) it goes into dormancy (defends it's self). Most of the time it will not green up until the following spring.
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Scott,
I agree w/ much of what you're saying, but the reality is ALL grasses have the ability to utilize drought dormancy as a survival mechanism. The issue is that we as an industry don't really believe that, let alone proving it with our maintenance practices.
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Interesting discussion. I've played Whistling Straight about five times and on each occasion have found the ground game kind of fun.
In fact on my very first visit, shortly after the course opened, I decided to play my approach shot on #1 from about 155 yards with a seven iron by trying to land at least 50 yards short. I hit the ball exactly as planned and it rolled all the up to the green.
Not every approach provides that opportunity, but I found Whistling Straights does play kind of links like on a number of shots. #8 was another fun example.
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Why does it have to be brown to be good? Dye is a genius to turn a flat airfield into this.
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Weather conditions have nothing to do with how soft the course is. There is a huge difference at the point where irrigation stops in the rough. I can't say whether or not the course would present a better test dry. It seems like an entertaining tournament as is.
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If I heard correctly one of the announcers said the sand was natural there. I thought it was all trucked in.
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Jerry,
I just heard an announcer say that a huge number (13,000?) of truck loads of sand were brought on to the property.
DT
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It doesn't have to be brown and it is a great, entertaining tournament! I just think it would be harder for these guys to hit the fairways and they would also have to think more about their club selection off the tee if it was hard and fast.
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Huge amounts trucked in
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Thanks!
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Scott,
I agree w/ much of what you're saying, but the reality is ALL grasses have the ability to utilize drought dormancy as a survival mechanism. The issue is that we as an industry don't really believe that, let alone proving it with our maintenance practices.
Joe, Sorry but I respectfully disagree with "we as an industry don't believe that, let alone proving it with our maintenance practices". The art of golf course maintenance is very complicated (at times) and I don't believe for one second Superintendents just throw water to fix the problem. When its 95-100 degrees (night time temps in the 70's) and you don't give it any water....when it's asking for it....it's dead as fried chicken....give it too much water it dies from disease. Now if it's spring or fall and the night time temps get down in the 50's and day time temps are 75-85....you can turn it every color you want and it will live. San Fran is a great example of an area that you can dry the plant down to nothing, string it along for months and it will be fine. That's not the case across the globe.
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This is Wisconsin in the summer. If it rains--and it has--it's green.
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Scott,
I'm OK with disagreement; I get plenty. I think the plants' ability to survive those hot days/ warm nights has everything to do with how the plant has been set up to survive that. I'm not talking the past few months, but rather the past several years. And with that I will bow out of the discussion as I no longer am a superintendent.
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Scott,
I'm OK with disagreement; I get plenty. I think the plants' ability to survive those hot days/ warm nights has everything to do with how the plant has been set up to survive that. I'm not talking the past few months, but rather the past several years. And with that I will bow out of the discussion as I no longer am a superintendent.
I would agree with Scott, 100%, but also state that member/player demands and expectations play a vital roll in how each course is maintained and how the Superintendent maintains it. This doesn't include the debate on turf types in difference regions and/or soil conditions it's grown on.
Members at a club like Scott's caliber don't want a "survive of the fitness" turf and/or tolerate too much that isn't cosmetically pleasing to the eye. Case in point the remarks made about the last 2 US Opens.
Every turf type has its threshold. Do you think that all the Supts on the NE, Midwest, Chicago who lost their poa greens because of ice didn't set the plant up to survive that? A cool season grass such as bent and/or poa will always struggle with temps start pushing 90+. that's there breaking point. Too much "drought dormancy" on bent of poa is death. Plain and simple. It doesn't bounce back. We, as an industry, don't believe because it's generally not a fact.
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Here's the simple answer: It has been wet.
Here are totals for Sheboygan
August to date: 2.51 inches vs. 1.7 average
July 2.48 inches vs 2.91 inches average
June 3.92 inches vs. 3.29 inches average
May 3.95 inches vs. 2.75 inches average
Add it all up and it is 12.86 inches since May 1 vs. 10.65 inches on average