Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 11, 2015, 05:19:31 AM
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I am surprised this project hasn't received more attention on this site. Does anybody know how this project coming along?
Ciao
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Sean:
Where did you hear about it? It has been under the radar so far. I haven't commented on it here so as not to distract from the other project we're building in Michigan right now.
The new Gull Lake course is being designed and built by my associates, without my own involvement. It's a way for them to stay busy without me having to stay so busy, and for them to see what it's like to design and build a project without me, in case I find I like not being so busy! The client was very amenable to the deal, as it saves them from having to pay for my time. I couldn't tell you which of them sorted out the routing, because I really don't know, but Eric Iverson and Brian Schneider have done most of the shaping in between stints helping Brian Slawnik at Forest Dunes.
The project got off to a late start due to the weather and the fact that the soils are much less forgiving than at Forest Dunes -- plus they didn't get a head start on construction last fall, as we did up north. Most of the greens and bunkers have been shaped now, but it remains to be seen how much of the course will be planted this fall, and how much will remain to be done in 2016. I'm really excited to see it whenever it is complete, those guys are super talented but I have no clue what they'll try to build without my veto power in place!
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http://www.gulllakeview.com/gull-lake-view-renaissance-golf-design-bring-a-new-golf-experience-to-southwest-michigan/
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There was a brief discussion in April
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60849.msg1442851.html#msg1442851
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It is on a former apple orchard S/SE of the Stonehedge South course. Here is a little taste from a couple months ago:
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr346/Karla8983/Mobile%20Uploads/1439669804_zps83b7af72.jpg)
It is just a general plan. Concepts change, plus, none of the bunkers are pictured.
10th tee.
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr346/Karla8983/Mobile%20Uploads/1439670621_zps98d249d3.jpg)
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The Gull Lake View Resort website has some drone footage of the property. Here you go...
http://www.gulllakeview.com/golf/courses/stoatin-brae/
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I'm looking forward to this course opening. It says sometime this summer. Any details?
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I'll have something for you guys on Thursday of this week, if you can wait that long.
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I'm looking forward to this course opening. It says sometime this summer. Any details?
Shaping is done. All the greens and approaches were seeded last fall as well as 15 or 16 entire holes. They had a late winter which was helpful, just a little more work to do in the spring.
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Stoatin Brae to open this July/August I hear. Looking forward to playing this course. The red headed step child. Has GCA become mainstream news? Isn't this site suppose to focus on courses that the Golf Channel and rags don't cover?
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Ben:
What do you want to know about Stoatin Brae?
I generally try to focus on one project at a time as far as talking about them for p.r., especially when we have worked on two close together. In this case, I couldn't really say much about the course, because I hadn't even seen it until a month ago, on my way back home from Kentucky on a final trip for The Confidential Guide. My associates designed and built it all without any input from me.
I'll be happy to post my own review if you want. I don't know the full details, but I'm pretty sure they won't be opening the full 18 holes until after July or August, because two fairways remained to be seeded in late May. The rest of it, including all 18 greens, were growing in nicely. I thought the par-3 holes were the highlight of the course, which is funny, since many critics complain about mine!
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I called them. Soft opening of 12 holes on August and hopefully all 18 in September
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If you haven't seen the interview with the foursome of architects at Stoatin Bare, here it is:
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/2016-interview-series-stoatin-brae-architectural-foursome/
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Tom, I'd like to see your full review of the place if you don't mind.
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If you haven't seen the interview with the foursome of architects at Stoatin Bare, here it is:
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/2016-interview-series-stoatin-brae-architectural-foursome/ (http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/2016-interview-series-stoatin-brae-architectural-foursome/)
Ron,
Great interview, well done. The Scott family should be proud and others in the golf business should take notice of their longevity.
Blake,
Nice work. I bet you enjoyed being close to such world class breweries. What did you think of Battle Creek CC? Now I have a great 36 hole day option. Do you expect all 18 holes open after September 15th? I love how few bunkers you built at Stoatin Brae. What bent grasses did you go with for fairways and greens, as in any of the new bents? What do you have growing in between the holes it looks very thick? So refreshing to play a course without trees.
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Wonderful interview. One of the group notes that they had seen enough great courses to know that they were not doing anything very original.
Someone else mentions that they thought their design was "restrained".
Those statements are not what a hotshot real estate developer wants to hear. They are however the kind of mature reflections that suggest the group may have built a very good course indeed.
Looking forward to reviews by Tom and others.
Bob
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Wonderful interview. One of the group notes that they had seen enough great courses to know that they were not doing anything very original.
Someone else mentions that they thought their design was "restrained".
Those statements are not what a hotshot real estate developer wants to hear. They are however the kind of mature reflections that suggest the group may have built a very good course indeed.
Looking forward to reviews by Tom and others.
Bob
The restraint comes from the developer wanting a golf course that can be played by everyone, just like the other five courses at the resort appeal to average golfers.
The lack of originality is a little surprising to hear. Sure, the terrain doesn't offer a ton of uniqueness, but the land is being utilized to the best of the designers abilities and more.
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I thought the par-3 holes were the highlight of the course...
Agreed! Four distinct flavorful par-3s.
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If you haven't seen the interview with the foursome of architects at Stoatin Bare, here it is:
http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/2016-interview-series-stoatin-brae-architectural-foursome/ (http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/2016-interview-series-stoatin-brae-architectural-foursome/)
Ron,
Great interview, well done. The Scott family should be proud and others in the golf business should take notice of their longevity.
Blake,
Nice work. I bet you enjoyed being close to such world class breweries. What did you think of Battle Creek CC? Now I have a great 36 hole day option. Do you expect all 18 holes open after September 15th? I love how few bunkers you built at Stoatin Brae. What bent grasses did you go with for fairways and greens, as in any of the new bents? What do you have growing in between the holes it looks very thick? So refreshing to play a course without trees.
Ben, I took a quick peak around Battle Creek, but never played. From what I saw and have heard, Bruce Hepner did some really good work out there getting the course back in shape.
As far as I know the opening is on schedule, but I also know well enough to trust the guys who are out there everyday finishing it up to determine the right date to open. Weather is always a variable, and rushing new turf doesn't pay off in the long run. There's some great drone footage on the Gull Lake website that shows how the course was looking as recent as June 11th http://www.gulllakeview.com/golf/golf-courses/stoatin-brae/ (http://www.gulllakeview.com/golf/golf-courses/stoatin-brae/)
I couldn't tell you what kind of bent was used on the greens, but the fairways are bluegrass.
Growing between the holes is a mostly native mix. big bluestem, little bluestem, indian grass, goldenrod, some aster, black-eyed susan, etc. Jon Scott has an LA degree and he knew every species in there. For instance, there's a mature stand of big bluestem between 1 tee and 18 green that Jon knew was pretty rare and worth protecting.
As for the bunkers, it's a big site with big vistas, and getting the scale right was important. However, the course is about the land, the routing, and the greens. The bunkers are in the right spot and they compliment those three aforementioned components pretty well.
And the breweries are pretty great up there. For a Nebraska dude, easy access to Bell's, Short's, Founders, etc. was excellent. Tons of small ones, too. We'd go to Gonzo's Biggdogg Brewing Co. for pizza and their beer was damn good. Can't wait to get back
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I thought the par-3 holes were the highlight of the course...
Agreed! Four distinct flavorful par-3s.
Aren't there actually five par-3's? 2, 7, 11, 14 and 17. The 2nd was the only one of them I didn't love. I thought the 7th would have made a great short par-4, but then I saw the 8th coming back the other way, and realized why they hadn't taken the length available on #7.
I thought the best part of the course was the far end, on holes 10 through 15 where it ties a little knot. That is the most interesting bit of the land, but it was a tight corner, and they did a great job getting so many good holes out of it. The 10th, 12th and 15th all have dramatic, demanding tee shots, and all three have cool greens as well, subtle but distinctive.
Meanwhile, all the par-5 holes are relatively short, but the greens on the 9th and 18th are anything but subtle ... I just hope they don't hold up play too much.
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The 2nd was the only one of them I didn't love.
Did you like it a lot, or did you hate it?
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I thought the par-3 holes were the highlight of the course...
Agreed! Four distinct flavorful par-3s.
Aren't there actually five par-3's? 2, 7, 11, 14 and 17. The 2nd was the only one of them I didn't love. I thought the 7th would have made a great short par-4, but then I saw the 8th coming back the other way, and realized why they hadn't taken the length available on #7.
I thought the best part of the course was the far end, on holes 10 through 15 where it ties a little knot. That is the most interesting bit of the land, but it was a tight corner, and they did a great job getting so many good holes out of it. The 10th, 12th and 15th all have dramatic, demanding tee shots, and all three have cool greens as well, subtle but distinctive.
Meanwhile, all the par-5 holes are relatively short, but the greens on the 9th and 18th are anything but subtle ... I just hope they don't hold up play too much.
My apologies. Yes, five distinct flavorful par-3s. Different lengths, elevations, strategies, directions (other than 7 and 14 both playing north, but they are on almost opposite ends of the spectrum design-wise).
I think the whole back nine is a hell of an adventure, with 10-15 being top "knot"-ch ;)
The front nine is a little back and forth due to the limited size of the property and is a little flatter, but strategic bunkering and green complex contours more than make up for it.
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Blake,
The Scotts have always had a huge commitment to community (this year they will offer two new college scholarships to local high school graduates). “This course allows us to pursue our passion and grow the community at the same time, a win-win situation.” Offers Charlie Scott. There are some who may question the wisdom of building a golf course in such a tough golf market. “We may seem a little crazy to do this, but we are contrarians at heart. We quit building golf courses in the mid nineties when there was a boom and are starting to build now when others are closing.
I missed this in prior glances, great saying ''We are contrarians at heart''. So great to hear their charitable givings that are under the radar. I gotta meet these guys.
What made them go with Bluegrass over bent? Check out Dark Horse Brewery in person (Marshall, MI.)
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What made them go with Bluegrass over bent?
Experience. They own five other courses; I don't know if any of them are bentgrass or not. But Jon Scott went to turf school as well as landscape architecture school at Michigan State, so they are very familiar with what works best for them.
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Tom; Experience is right, I first played one of the Gull Lake courses in 1971. Does anyone know if the bluegrass is onre of the new "low mow" bluegrasses that are relatively recent developments?
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Tom; Experience is right, I first played one of the Gull Lake courses in 1971. Does anyone know if the bluegrass is onre of the new "low mow" bluegrasses that are relatively recent developments?
It is. We were fine with that choice because it performed brilliantly at Rock Creek. Before that, I'd been skeptical, since seed salesmen have been touting "low mow" bluegrasses since the 1980's, and most of them were no such thing. Today's choices are much better. You can't mow them under 1/2 inch, so some will still dismiss them, but they can be a very good surface even for chipping areas.
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The course is currently offering 12-hole preview rounds.
http://www.gulllakeview.com/golf/golf-courses/stoatin-brae/ (http://www.gulllakeview.com/golf/golf-courses/stoatin-brae/)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKlgxLJDK_k/?taken-by=hochsteindesign (https://www.instagram.com/p/BKlgxLJDK_k/?taken-by=hochsteindesign)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKlvG0DjrBf/?taken-by=hochsteindesign (https://www.instagram.com/p/BKlvG0DjrBf/?taken-by=hochsteindesign)
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I played a preview round last weekend and can report I'm very excited to play the entire course next season!
The course is generous off the tee and most greens allow run up shots to accommodate lesser skilled player. From the back tees, the angles and levels of the teeing pads make for some challenging tee shots. The greens find that happy medium of playable for high handicap players and fun and challenging for the better player.
There's a lot to like about the course. After holes 1-3, you transition onto the back nine and play holes 10-18 in order. The property becomes rambunctious with amazing elevation changes.
On my drive away from Stoatin Brae, the two words that constantly came to mind were generous and fun. If anyone is in the area, I'd recommend stopping in. The tees, fairways and greens are in very nice shape. The surrounding areas are still rough as you would expect. I'm looking forward to experiencing holes 4-9!
Ken
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Ken,
Thanks for posting. Really excited for SB next year when it's grown in more. A june 36er at SB and BCCC is in order Sir, followed by Arcadia Brewery!
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(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr346/Karla8983/Screen%20Shot%202017-01-24%20at%206.56.01%20PM_zpsdnkvijzd.png)
I guess something good did come out of my time there! They used my idea for the top shot bunker(s) on 12!
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Has anyone gotten out to the full 18 yet? The hard open is May 15th. I talked to the pro shop about getting a tee time and they have let play on it as a preview.
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Matt,
Some MI GCA buddies of mine are playing it this weekend. Looking forward to their opinions.
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New blurb : http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/full-stoatin-brae-course-to-open-at-gull-lake-view (http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/full-stoatin-brae-course-to-open-at-gull-lake-view)
Look forward to playing it this summer!