Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Angus Moir on August 06, 2015, 08:55:35 AM
-
Had the pleasure to play Royal Worlington&Newmarket on Saturday....awesome greens!
But its the whole experience at this 9 holer that makes it special....
As a course not as good as the Dunes club IMHO but are there some other proper 9 holers out there that are rated highly?
Par 3 9 holers don't count if you were thinking Augusta BTW...
Any nominations?
-
Sweetens Cove and it ain't even close.
-
I've not played Sweetens Cove yet but have played Royal Worlington which is excellent, however, the best I've ever played by a mile is the 9 hole course at Morfontaine in France called the Vallière Course.
Original Simpson and perhaps goes to show what a genius he was when given a piece of land with no restrictions.
-
that's why I love this site....never even heard of it!
thanks for the very positive nomination!
just got to get to whiskey country now...
-
Dave
I am pissed now because I played Mortfontaine but whiffed on the 9 holer..
my member wanted to hit the restaurant...
another time..
-
This will be brought up by many in the US, especially in Chicago area:
Dunes Club
-
Just played and rated a great one two weeks ago. Philly Crickets St. Martins course deserves mention, hosted two US Opens before the changes. Beautiful course complete with sand tee boxes for the hickory set. Great sight lines and nice greens. Hope to get invited back to try it with the hickories.
-
Pretty obvious reply, but it is not even close for me, The Dunes Club in New Buffalo, MI. Especially like that they change the tees and pins between 9s so that it is a different course the next time around.
Everything you need in a golf club......great golf. Nothing you don't need......everything else.
-
#1 Dunes Club, by a Large Margin
followed by Signal Point Club
Those are the only two 9 hole courses worth mentioning I've ever played.
-
I've played royal Worlington. The best 9 hole course I have played is Hunter Army Airfield.
-
A toss up for me Northwood in Monte Rio CA or Gleneagles in San Francisco.
-
Another vote for Dunes Club.
Golf Digest chimes in on best nine hole and "short courses" in the U.S.: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-06/ranking-best-short-courses (http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-06/ranking-best-short-courses)
Previous related thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=43301.0 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=43301.0)
-
Sweetens Cove and it ain't even close.
+1
-
The old question - 'best (hardest?)' vrs 'favourite'
A few suggestions - I like 9-holers :)
The Channel at Burnham & Berrow - tough track too and as a Buda competitor said last year "every course should have a hole like the short par-3 8th hole"
St Olaf at Cruden Bay - 6th & 8th are terrific, possible the best holes of all 28 at CB
Cruit Island - not just quirk, damn good golf
The Bann at Castlerock - shortish cracker
The 3rd 9, whichever 9 it may be, at Carne
The original 9-holes at Newburgh - so tranquil and with a monster par-5 to finish
St David's City - super scenic
That'll do for now.
Atb
-
What, no love for Whitinsville? Clearly in the top 3 in the US and maybe the world!
(http://www.whitinsvillegolfclub.net/files/2015/01/pg16.jpg)
-
No mention of the Hanse redo of the University of the South course in Sewanee, Tenn?
Bob
-
No mention of the Hanse redo of the University of the South course in Sewanee, Tenn?
Sewanee is good, but I can't believe there are better 9 hole courses out there than Whittensville.
Bob
-
Dunes Club by a mile.
-
Dunes Club by a mile.
Have you played Whitinsville?
-
Just played and rated a great one two weeks ago. Philly Crickets St. Martins course deserves mention, hosted two US Opens before the changes. Beautiful course complete with sand tee boxes for the hickory set. Great sight lines and nice greens. Hope to get invited back to try it with the hickories.
St. Martins is a blast to play.
Here is a winter look of the course:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PCCSM/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PCCSM/)
-
It would be interesting to know how many of those naming courses here have played the others being mentioned. For me, Royal Worlington but a very honourable mention indeed for the St Olaf course at Cruden Bay.
-
Just about a month ago I was able to play the Dunes Club. A special place with a very neat vibe.
Photos:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DunesClub/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DunesClub/)
-
Just about a month ago I was able to play the Dunes Club. A special place with a very neat vibe.
Photos:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DunesClub/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DunesClub/)
Great picture tour!
-
but a very honourable mention indeed for the St Olaf course at Cruden Bay.
That's quite an endorsement.
Well that certainly makes me feel dumb for having not played it!
I love 9 holers
-
We are lucky to have a number of good 9-hole courses in mid-Cheshire, including Hale. It's not as good as Royal Worlington, but it is a fine course none-the-less in a beautiful setting, with a well-stocked bar and good food. The members are discerning - judges and that sort of thing and many of them also play croquet. I have a lot of time for Knutsford, designed by a couple of schoolmasters, and laid out in the inspiring environment of Tatton Park. It has gained some new members 'of the right sort' as Mere has become more of a 'Spa and Resort' and another couple of local clubs have folded. Nice club atmosphere. It could be rejected as it is a 10-hole course (separate 9th and 18th holles).
I should love to be able to include Alderley Edge the closest course to my home. It has a stunning start of three very strong long par 4s (and you get to play these twice in the round) and a very taxing par-3 8th. Sadly the rest is also ran, and a couple of those also rans are really awful....
-
Dunes is great. I haven't played Sweetens Cove or Whittinsville, but they look spectacular in the photo threads hereabouts.
-
My take would be
Royal Worlington & Newmarket as the best from a solid course with excellent GCA. For fun I stick with Abernethy or mine but I would say that wouldn't I ::)
Jon
-
but a very honourable mention indeed for the St Olaf course at Cruden Bay.
That's quite an endorsement.
Well that certainly makes me feel dumb for having not played it!
I love 9 holers
I reckon you'd love the St Olaf Jeff. I played it 9 times in one day once, many, many years ago - I didn't check the club diary in advance, well pre-web days, and went up for a knock only to find the main course busy with a competition. :)
Atb
-
It's between Dunes and Whittinsville for me.
I give the edge to Dunes, but it's awfully close.
-
I really love Quogue Field Club. Great greens and some really cool holes. Feels like you go back in time when you play it.
-
I'm with Keith (as should be clear by now). Again, full history and photo tour of QFC coming very soon.
-
Hideaway Beach in Marco Island FL was probably my favorite, until I played Dunes Club
-
Aetna Springs in Napa County, CA. Peaceful and secluded, was like having a private golf playground.
-
Aetna Springs in Napa County, CA. Peaceful and secluded, was like having a private golf playground.
Aetna Springs was a cool project for us ... I played there in Feburary for the first time in a while, it's a lovely experience.
I have played most of the courses mentioned so far, except for Sweetens Cove which Ran speaks highly of in volume 2 of The Confidential Guide, and the Valliere, which I'll play this fall. For me, Royal Worlington & Newmarket is still #1, and I have Whitinsville slightly ahead of The Dunes Club.
They are not all that far apart; all the guys who say it's one or another, "by a mile," are just uninformed souls who haven't played the other two. But Royal Worlington & Newmarket has nine really good holes out of nine; Whitinsville and The Dunes Club only have seven or eight.
-
Aetna Springs in Napa County, CA. Peaceful and secluded, was like having a private golf playground.
Aetna Springs was a cool project for us ... I played there in Feburary for the first time in a while, it's a lovely experience.
I have played most of the courses mentioned so far, except for Sweetens Cove which Ran speaks highly of in volume 2 of The Confidential Guide, and the Valliere, which I'll play this fall. For me, Royal Worlington & Newmarket is still #1, and I have Whitinsville slightly ahead of The Dunes Club.
They are not all that far apart; all the guys who say it's one or another, "by a mile," are just uninformed souls who haven't played the other two. But Royal Worlington & Newmarket has nine really good holes out of nine; Whitinsville and The Dunes Club only have seven or eight.
That is an interesting statement, because I would say it is somewhat rare for an 18 hole course to have 18 really good holes.
-
Another vote for sweetens cove, fantastic golf course
-
The best I have played is Sweetens Cove with The Course at Sewanee as a close 2nd. The two courses are only about 30 minutes apart which makes for a fun day of golf.
-
Will be interested to hear Tom's thoughts after playing Valliere.
If Dunes Club is indeed #1 as many claim above this french masterpiece it must be something very very special… [/size][size=78%] [/size]
-
The more I play St. Martins the more I enjoy it. It's rarely discussed, and drastically overshadowed by the other PCC courses, but is fantastic jewel of a course. I can imagine being a kid again and having nearly free reign on that course all summer long. Unfortunately a fun as it is, and perfectly suited for hickory play, it does not have the teeth to compete with the other great 9 holers.
Sweetens and Suwanee are fantastic Tennessee cousins, as similar and as different as possible. From tee to green Suwanee is a more demanding course, but that all changes when it comes to the greens. The quality of design and play-ability of the greens around Sweetens is what makes the golf course so special. At times the pin positions demand you to truly plan out your approach, at others your goal is to just feed the ball towards a certain sector of the green and let gravity do the rest. I could see the possibility of playing consecutive 9's there and having an 8-10 shot swing between 9's just because of the greens. Where as Suwanee is predictable, Sweetens can be just simply humbling, but in a way that brings you back every time.
One of my all time favorites is the cow pasture course in Atlanta known as Candler Park. At about $1 per hole for city residence its about as cheap as you can find for golf, and at times you get what you pay for. but there is so much quirk and charm on those few acres of fairway.
-
SkyRidge - Sequim, WA
-
A toss up for me Northwood in Monte Rio CA or Gleneagles in San Francisco.
Have you played Black Oak in Auburn, CA? Very challenging 9 with big old Oak trees, par 34.
Also Gleneagles International near SFO is like Harding Park.
In Sacramento William Land Park is a nice tree lined 9 holer with a tight field goal par 3 between two giant Eucs.
-
I have only played a few but the one that stands out is Mulranny and if I could figure out how to post pictures I would put one or more up. I look forward to Sweetens Cove next month.
-
I would say it is somewhat rare for an 18 hole course to have 18 really good holes.
Nigel:
Well, it is a lot harder to go 18 for 18 than it is to go 9 for 9. It's like the difference between pitching a no-hitter for three innings, or for six. The front nine at Crystal Downs, to name just one off the top of my head, would beat any of these we are discussing.
-
I've had chance to play Philly Cricket's St. Martins. A very enjoyable walk with lots of strategy for a shorter course. May I also offer another candidate which many of you may not be familiar-- the Gibson Island Club outside Baltimore situated on the Chesapeake Bay. A unique 9 holer with a CB Macdonald and Seth Raynor pedigree. Intensely private but a real treat for their members and guests. A nice course tour is on the club website:
gibsonisland.com
-
If any of these are better than Valiere at Morfontaine...I have to get out a lot more. That's the funnest 90 minutes in golf.
-
Aetna Springs in Napa County, CA. Peaceful and secluded, was like having a private golf playground.
They are not all that far apart; all the guys who say it's one or another, "by a mile," are just uninformed souls who haven't played the other two. But Royal Worlington & Newmarket has nine really good holes out of nine; Whitinsville and The Dunes Club only have seven or eight.
Tom,
The title of the thread is the best 9 hole course You've played.
Sweetens Cove is the best 9 hole track I have played by a MILE. Until I played Sweetens I really had little desire to play 9 hole courses. Others I recall that I've played are
2 of the RTJ AL courses
Quarry Ridge
Can't recall any others
Plan on playing Whittinsville in the next year
-
Out of the 9 hole courses I played, the best has been Phoenixville CC, of which I was a member for a few years. A good amount of quirk, variety and character with a lot of the challenge closer to the greens. I never tired of playing there, even on those rare days I was able to get around a few times.
-
Elkhorn Valley (OR), cut out of the forests east of Salem. Unfortunately, imo, it has been expanded to a full 18 hole course with intertwined sides. Total seclusion, playing it was something like entering puberty. We had an annual 32 man tournament in late April, and that was one of the most anticipated rounds of the year. A late friend started birdie, eagle, ace.
I am most of the way through playing all Oregon golf courses, and nothing comes close.
-
Anyone played Weekapaug?
Dunes Club would be hard to beat, but I intend to put it to the test by getting out the Whitinsville as soon as possible.
-
I've spent just a day at Sweeten's and it is fantastic. I used to play Wawenock on my way from Bath to Turnip Island in Maine and it is a timeless gem with suspect conditioning but great land and a clever little routing.
-
Most that I have played are small town Iowa courses but the best I have played is probably the 9 hole course at Sand Hollow. It contrasts sharply with the more dramatic 18 hole course but is a pleasant walk.
-
Frankston in Melbourne is a nice little track. Perhaps not quite Worlington, but excellent. But no info available, very private, no website etc
-
Good point about Frankston, Josh....its a ripper. "Millionaires Club" as its known colloquially. Closest thing to a miniature Swinley that have had the joy to play.
-
Rip Van Winkle CC in Palenville, NY.
Easy walk with strategy off of every tee.
Flanking, meandering mounds and bunkers.
A chocolate drop, maybe two, and shots over brooks.
Beautiful scenery with a Catskill mountain backdrop.
Gleneagles in SF when Eric DeLambert was there.
Steel spikes required.
Pure greens and "greed bunkers".
It is one tough test.
Very comfortable, dark wood 19th hole.
Aetna Springs definately.
-
For me the Sacred 9 is tops, but I have never seen the US contenders.
I really like The Channel Course at Burnham and Cruden Bay's 9. Though second for me is Musselburgh...very under-rated course in a tough neighbourhood.
Ciao
-
Anyone played Weekapaug?
Dunes Club would be hard to beat, but I intend to put it to the test by getting out the Whitinsville as soon as possible.
I have played Weekapaug and it is fun but not in the same class as Whitinsville.
-
Out of the 9 hole courses I played, the best has been Phoenixville CC, of which I was a member for a few years. A good amount of quirk, variety and character with a lot of the challenge closer to the greens. I never tired of playing there, even on those rare days I was able to get around a few times.
Phoenixville is a wonderful course and a great club:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Phoenixville/
-
I need to duck under the desk after I make this post:
I enjoyed Sweentens Cove immensely and I think what Ari and Rob have accomplished is extraordinary. That said, a contrarian might opine that it reminds him somewhat of an ostentatious Parade of Homes house where the builder is more interested in displaying his talent and capability by including every conceivable bell and whistle than he is in building an architecturally brilliant residence.
Sweetens is fun to play and a great marketing model for Rob, but I don't think it's a great golf course. Favorite nine-holer? Perhaps. Best? Not in my opinion.
Perhaps I should have waited to post this until AFTER the Dixie Cup.
With all due respect,
Bogey
-
I played Cruit Island in Donegal last month, its easily the the best 9 hole golf course I have ever played.
-
Every year there is an an event for The First Tee of Greater Chicago at the Dunes Club. They just had it last Monday but I am pretty sure it is an annual event. Put it in your calendar to check the website of the First Tee in six months and anyone willing to write a check is welcome.
-
Bogey - I understand what you mean. I can't speak for Rob, good friend though he is, but I very much doubt there would be as much going on at Sweetens if it was his tenth course. But this is an environment in which it is very, very hard for a young golf architect to get an opportunity to build new golf, let alone that close to home. So I think it is totally unsurprising that he would have thrown the kitchen sink at the place -- your point about it being a good business model for him is on the money.
Is it a great course? I don't know, but I do know that the greatest courses are those that have great sites, and clearly Sweetens, which is dead flat, doesn't. I think it's a place where the architect did everything he could to improve on the raw ground he was given, without moving huge amounts of earth to craft a new landscape. It's all small-scale work, greens contours and the like.
-
West Chester Golf & Country Club outside of Philly was a pretty fun track. Best nine in the country? No, but it is a blast to play.
-
The par 3 at Augusta
-
Would be very hard to beat Royal Worlington. If Sweetens is in that league, then I can't wait to see it.
-
Just played and rated a great one two weeks ago. Philly Crickets St. Martins course deserves mention, hosted two US Opens before the changes. Beautiful course complete with sand tee boxes for the hickory set. Great sight lines and nice greens. Hope to get invited back to try it with the hickories.
St. Martins is a blast to play.
Here is a winter look of the course:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PCCSM/ (http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PCCSM/)
St. Martins is actually my favorite 9 of the 5 to choose from at the Cricket Club. It is (as is mentioned elsewhere in this thread) overshadowed by the other 2 18 hole courses at the club, particulary with "everyone's" excitement about the Wissahickon renovation.
It has been a while since I've posted...looking forward to joining the conversations more consistently in the future.
-
This post made me think about nine hole courses that I have played. Man, I must have been at this game along time if I can think of this many 9 holes courses that I have played in such a short period of time! This really plumbed the depths of my memory – thinking Geographically. ST OLAF at Cruden Bay is the best 9 hole course I can recall, but a special mention of Highlands Link course, Truro Mass on the big Cape Cod dunes – a true links course in the US – winning my award for the most BEAUTIFUL VIEWS, panoramic in nature that include the Atlantic Ocean all the way to Race Point in Provincetown, Provincetown Harbor and Cape Cod Bay. Firm and Fast most of the time! You will find some posts on Highland Links if you search.
St Olaf - Cruden Bay (Scotland UK) WINNER
Highland Links – MOST BEAUTIFUL VIEWS ( Truro, MA USA )
Others I can readily remember in order of ranking:
St Martins – Philadelphia Cricket Club (Chestnut Hill, PA USA) – post restoration.
Merchantville G C ( Merchantville, NJ USA )
Mount Tabor G C (Mt Tabor, NJ USA )
Reservation C C ( Mattapoisett, MA USA)
Lake Waramaug C C ( New Preston, CT USA)
Chequesset Yacht and C C ( Wellfleet, MA USA)
Cedarbrook Country Club ( Cheltenham, PA USA) - 9 holes when I played it.
L C Boles Golf Course – College of Wooster (Wooster, OH USA)
Lawrenceville School G C ( Lawrenceville, NJ USA)
Old Forge Green Pond ( NLE?? Sparta NJ USA )
Wm Flynnfan
-
A shame that the Cruden Bay website doesn't contain any photos of the St Olaf course. An oversight IMO.
Those of us who know the St Olaf course know how good it is but CB ought to promote the St Olaf more and the web is the modern day shop window........
Atb
-
West Chester Golf & Country Club outside of Philly was a pretty fun track. Best nine in the country? No, but it is a blast to play.
Indeed!
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/WestChester/
-
A decent course but my most enjoyable 9 holer is Traigh.
Great views on just about every shot and for the coast of Scotland my 2 visits have both been on sunny and near calm weather.
-
Here's a few of the best that I have played:
St Mary's CC (emmet 9
Holer in Pennsylvania)
Wilson Lake CC (stiles and van kleek in Maine)
Immergrun (emmet former estate course in Pennsylvania)
The Casement Club (nle course built by precast concrete owner in Ohio for employees - lost to flooding)
Keweenaw Mountain Lodge GC (Michgan UP rustic course)
Northport Pointe Club (throwback old Bendelow course in Michigan that Doak redid the bunkering)
Les Cheneaux GC (UP Michigan throwback course with wild greens)
If I had to pick just one it would be Wilson Lake.
Chris
-
Just to inject a little rigor, here are the numbers we have so far in The Confidential Guide:
9 8 9 8 Royal Worlington & Newmarket
6 6 - 8 The Dunes GC, Mich. * vol. 3
7 - 6 - Whitinsville GC * vol. 3
- 7 - - Sweetens Cove
6 - - - Aetna Springs
5 6 - - Culver Military Academy * vol. 3
Note that everyone's grades for courses listed in Volume 3 may still be changed as publication is a year away. Also, my own convention is to rate 9-hole courses one grade lower than I would give them if they had 18 holes of the same quality, though I can't say if my fellow authors share that view.
Other nine-hole courses that received a 5 rating from one or more of us:
Leckford Old Course, Magallanes [Chile], Oakhurst [W.V.], Reigate Heath, Sewanee, Traigh, and Shiskine [which of course is 12 holes]
Courses mentioned above that I rated a 4:
Mulranny, Cruit Island, Petaluma, Phoenixville, Northport Point, Pelican Beach, Dixie Red Hills, Northwood [CA]
-
Just to inject a little rigor, here are the numbers we have so far in The Confidential Guide:
Other nine-hole courses that received a 5 rating from one or more of us:
Leckford Old Course, Magallanes [Chile], Oakhurst [W.V.], Reigate Heath, Sewanee, Traigh, and Shiskine [which of course is 12 holes]
Traigh, woo-hoo, I'm not going mad :-) (Pardon the crude edit)
On the enjoyment factor I should also mention what is probably a new name to every single reader on here.
Stroma, a small island just off the Scottish mainland in the North near John O Groats and before Orkney.
It's the Island my fathers family are from and now owned and farmed by a cousin. Every year about 20-30 of us go over and play a 9 hole course that we set up just for that day. Very old school with the fairways/rough kept by the sheep and the greens cut 3 or 4 times leading up to the game and on the morning of play
Most holes run along the cliff tops and range from 100-260 yards long with some played across gorges.
If I can find photos I should do a write up if only to be laughed at, this year is the 24th playing.
-
On the enjoyment factor I should also mention what is probably a new name to every single reader on here.
Stroma, a small island just off the Scottish mainland in the North near John O Groats and before Orkney.
It's the Island my fathers family are from and now owned and farmed by a cousin. Every year about 20-30 of us go over and play a 9 hole course that we set up just for that day. Very old school with the fairways/rough kept by the sheep and the greens cut 3 or 4 times leading up to the game and on the morning of play
Most holes run along the cliff tops and range from 100-260 yards long with some played across gorges.
If I can find photos I should do a write up if only to be laughed at, this year is the 24th playing.
Andrew:
That sounds like great fun, I hope you do post pictures.
It reminded me that I forgot to mention the nine-hole Isle of Harris course, another fun diversion in the Outer Hebrides.
-
The par 3 at Augusta
That's a par 3 course. I think they are looking for a semi regulation course that is 9 holes.
With that said, does Pine Valley short course qualify?
-
Tom, any advance ratings for Valiere (Morfontaine) or Little Frankston (Melbourne)? I'd be interested to see how the 4 of you (or however many have played them) compare those two to Dunes Club, RW & N etc.
-
5 6 - - Culver Military Academy * vol. 3
Were these two ratings post restoration/renovation? I have heard very good things about this 9er.
-
I would say it is somewhat rare for an 18 hole course to have 18 really good holes.
Nigel:
Well, it is a lot harder to go 18 for 18 than it is to go 9 for 9. It's like the difference between pitching a no-hitter for three innings, or for six. The front nine at Crystal Downs, to name just one off the top of my head, would beat any of these we are discussing.
Does a course HAVE to go 18 for 18?
couldn't the absolute strength and flow of say 13-15 holes, the setting, the tightness of the routing be enough?
couldn't the rest be connector holes that don't interrupt that flow and aren't great themselves set you up for the crescendo?
Perfect example TOC-certainly 9 and 10 (or a couple other holes) aren't considered great by many-but the whole is MUCH greater than the individual parts.
I think that's EXACTLY why I dislike nearly all modern golf courses-they try to go 18 for 18 ::) ::) and there's little to make the great holes stand out.
-
1. Sweetens Cove
2. Dunes Club
3. Culver
4. kukoiloni
5. Hooper
6. Fred Richards RIP
hope to get a chance to play whittinsville now that I live close
-
Deleted.
-
Also, my own convention is to rate 9-hole courses one grade lower than I would give them if they had 18 holes of the same quality, though I can't say if my fellow authors share that view.
What's the logic behind that? What about courses that are not par 72 or have 4 par 3s and par 5s? If the land available was better suited to a nine hole course surely it is a positive that the GCA/owner saw it as being better to build a good 9 holer than horse shoe in a crappy 18 holer no?
Jon
-
A decent course but my most enjoyable 9 holer is Traigh.
Great views on just about every shot and for the coast of Scotland my 2 visits have both been on sunny and near calm weather.
I really, really want to play Traigh. I've been past a couple of times but never stopped.
-
Aetna Springs is easily the best I've played, and I'm a big fan, for reasons I've elaborated here previously. For what little it's worth, Aetna Springs is a 6 in my book also.
I haven't seen it yet, but Whitinsville is one of the handful of courses I hope and expect to play in the next 12 months.
-
Also, my own convention is to rate 9-hole courses one grade lower than I would give them if they had 18 holes of the same quality, though I can't say if my fellow authors share that view.
What's the logic behind that? What about courses that are not par 72 or have 4 par 3s and par 5s? If the land available was better suited to a nine hole course surely it is a positive that the GCA/owner saw it as being better to build a good 9 holer than horse shoe in a crappy 18 holer no?
Jon:
My logic is that there are a lot of 18-hole courses that if you only took the best of the two nines, the overall view of them would be higher than it is now. If the outward nine was terrific and the inward nine was not so good, I'd probably take a point off what I'd give the better nine on its own. Therefore, I thought it was fair to compare nine-hole courses on that basis.
Here's an example: Rolling Rock Club in PA. The original nine by Donald Ross was terrific -- it would be in my top five nine-hole courses. But then they added another nine by Brian Silva, which I haven't seen, but the reports I've heard are that it isn't nearly as good -- which isn't surprising, as Ross used the best part of the land. [He didn't stop at nine holes because the Mellons were short of money for a full 18.] Should the expansion automatically knock a point off the course's rating?
-
Does a course HAVE to go 18 for 18?
couldn't the absolute strength and flow of say 13-15 holes, the setting, the tightness of the routing be enough?
couldn't the rest be connector holes that don't interrupt that flow and aren't great themselves set you up for the crescendo?
Perfect example TOC-certainly 9 and 10 (or a couple other holes) aren't considered great by many-but the whole is MUCH greater than the individual parts.
I think that's EXACTLY why I dislike nearly all modern golf courses-they try to go 18 for 18 ::) ::) and there's little to make the great holes stand out.
Actually, Jeff, I agree with you on that. I've taken some flak from people for writing that a "10" on the Doak scale means "if you skipped even one hole, you'd miss something worth seeing," which I will admit doesn't apply to all of the courses I rated a 10 ... there are not more than five courses in the world I could say that about, and I certainly don't think every new course should try to live up to that standard.
By the same token, in this debate, a nine-hole course will never have the absolute strength and flow of 13-15 holes; it can't have more than nine. So I don't see how I could rate it a 10.
-
5 6 - - Culver Military Academy * vol. 3
Were these two ratings post restoration/renovation? I have heard very good things about this 9er.
No, none of us have seen the renovation as of yet. Two friends of mine were very involved with it.
However, I have always maintained that restoration work does not change a course's rating on the Doak scale too much. The prime factors in my ratings are the routing and the greens, and what kind of character they bestow on the course, and restorations seldom change any of that.
-
Just to inject a little rigor, here are the numbers we have so far in The Confidential Guide:
- 7 - - Sweetens Cove
This is outrageous! The course averages 20 catch basins a hole.
-
9 Holers that I would give a 4 or above:
Royal Worlington and Newmarket - 9
Whitensville - 7
Dunes - 6
Sweetens - 5
Sewanee - 5
Pelican Beach - 5
Thedford - 4
The Horse Course - 4
Would the original 9 at Prairie Dunes be a 8 or a 9?
-
I need to duck under the desk after I make this post:
I enjoyed Sweentens Cove immensely and I think what Ari and Rob have accomplished is extraordinary. That said, a contrarian might opine that it reminds him somewhat of an ostentatious Parade of Homes house where the builder is more interested in displaying his talent and capability by including every conceivable bell and whistle than he is in building an architecturally brilliant residence.
Sweetens is fun to play and a great marketing model for Rob, but I don't think it's a great golf course. Favorite nine-holer? Perhaps. Best? Not in my opinion.
Perhaps I should have waited to post this until AFTER the Dixie Cup.
With all due respect,
Bogey
I totally understand what you're saying here and where you're coming from. But I don't agree with you.
There's no doubt that Rob threw the kitchen sink at the course and built a showpiece for his talent, but I think when you consider the limitations of the project that his approach makes sense as more than just a living resume. The final product at Sweetens has been good enough to obscure the fact that it's a tight, flat, flood-prone property with room for only nine holes, and not an especially huge amount of room for those. I think a lot of the things we see as "the kitchen sink" are really just accommodations that had to be made to fit 9 compelling holes onto the property.
For example, the 4th hole at first glance is a massive, shape-shifting par 3 with an almost ridiculous array of teeing angles, pin placements, and potential playing distances. And yet, there's a lot of value in having a hole like that on a 9-hole course that, by its very nature, has less variety than a standard course. The 5th is a quirky, almost cute tiny par 4. Even if it wasn't an outstanding hole - and I think it is - its playing angles and tiny size enable the one truly massive hole on the course to follow. The 6th is a crucial piece of the puzzle with its high-stakes drive on a monster par 4, and many will then look at 7 and 8 as a playable pair of shortish par 4s with a gratuitous Biarritz swale and a double-fairway tossed in to get the GCA nerds salivating. However, I see the double-fairway not as an architecturally gratuitous feature. Instead, I see it as a feature that both allows the holes to play very differently from one round to the next, and even more pragmatically, as a feature that reduces the individual footprint of each hole to allow space for the 1st and 6th holes, which I consider to be the two most critical holes in the course's routing. 1 and 6 aren't necessarily the best or most memorable holes on the course, but it was crucial to get each of them right in order to inject the course with the variety and "big holes" it needs to work as a 9-holer on a tight property.
It's easy to see everything going on at Sweetens as a collection of great features, but I think the majority of those features also relate to numerous other points on the course, imbuing interest to the hole they're on along with creating space or angles for holes elsewhere on the course. Maybe the property isn't good enough to call it a great course, but I think it's a design that absolutely gets the most possible out of that little flat piece of land.
It's the best nine-holer I've played by a wide margin, though I haven't played the other contenders being mentioned regularly.
-
I've only played a few, but my top two are:
1) Sweetens Cove
2) The Dunes Club
Both really good and very well done.
Dunes does a great job of using multiple tees to create unique angles for subsequent plays of the same hole/green complex.
I really do think Sweetens would be a Top 100 US course if it were 18 holes. It is spectacular.
-
Jon:
My logic is that there are a lot of 18-hole courses that if you only took the best of the two nines, the overall view of them would be higher than it is now. If the outward nine was terrific and the inward nine was not so good, I'd probably take a point off what I'd give the better nine on its own. Therefore, I thought it was fair to compare nine-hole courses on that basis.
Here's an example: Rolling Rock Club in PA. The original nine by Donald Ross was terrific -- it would be in my top five nine-hole courses. But then they added another nine by Brian Silva, which I haven't seen, but the reports I've heard are that it isn't nearly as good -- which isn't surprising, as Ross used the best part of the land. [He didn't stop at nine holes because the Mellons were short of money for a full 18.] Should the expansion automatically knock a point off the course's rating?
Tom,
you can only judge what is in front of you. What you do is flawed in my opinion because you automatically assume that another nine would be of lesser quality which is something you cannot simply know. You might argue that many 18 holers would be rated higher by you if they lost three or four of their worst holes. If it were possible to lose the few offending holes and still keep the quality of rhythm and routing then they should be rated higher despite the lower number of holes because the overall quality of the course would not be diluted by lesser GCA.
Your system is biased on rating 9 holers down because they are not 18 holers and not based on the quality of the GCA they have. For you 18 holes are better GCA than 9 holes
If you think about your example of Rolling Rock Club and the fact that according to you Ross built only 9 holes despite having the land and money to build 18. Does this not show the high quality and confidence of Ross to build only nine holes of quality thus creating the best result possible. If the addition nine were of lesser quality then yes the 18 holes should have a lower rating because the total GCA quality would be lesser. All it shows however is given the circumstances Brian Silva was not able to create an additional nine holes of the same quality as Ross.
And all that shows is that it was a better course as a 9 holer than as an 18 holer would you not agree? and if you do agree then it shows the flaw in your system.
Jon
-
I'm not convinced that Tom's logic isn't valid. As much as I love Whitinsville and wiould give it an 8, being nine holes a 7 is appropriate. A six is too low.
A course that comes to mind is Pasatiempo. The front is solid, the back is spectacular. The difference in the nines is as much as three Doak points... I might give the back as much as a 9 but the front a solid 6. No matter what points are assigned the difference in the nines is substantial.
Regression to the mean enters into the conversation. If one 9 is spectacular the odds are that the other nine will not be as good. Whitinsville might be a perfect example, but unfortunately we'll never know.
-
Pacific Grove is an excellent choice. I was up in the air between that and Pasatiempo. Pacific Grove has the greatest disparity in nines that I have ever seen.
-
To add a few more to the mix -
Portmahomack (Tarbet GC) looked interesting from over the fence. What's it like?
I understand that the Yellow-9 at Portmanock is pretty tasty. The 4th hole certainly looks an absolute corker.
What about the three-9's at Princes?
Reigate Heath is a 9-holer I've heard good things about.
Durness?
Atb
-
Here is Ian Larson's presentation on Culver at the 2015 Philadelphia "Barn Fest," organized by Joe Bausch: https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg (https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/PGAmagAmbassador/1-larson.jpg) (https://youtu.be/p_IHZ615ULg)
-
Played Whitinsville on Thursday. Probably my tenth time. It is scary good. An absolute beauty from start to finish. No weakness. And as Tom Doak noted in my film, the ninth hole was one of Ross' favorites. It is one of the, if not the, hardest finishing holes in Massachusetts.
-
Just to inject a little rigor, here are the numbers we have so far in The Confidential Guide:
- 7 - - Sweetens Cove
This is outrageous! The course averages 20 catch basins a hole.
Jaeger,
I was going to abstain from posting on this thread, but since you brought the discussion into the realm of the absurd, I feel like I need to respond. We got a good laugh about your email to Patrick after your round where you suggested that "more attention should have been paid to surface drainage." Clearly, you have no idea what the nature of the property was pre-construction even though the featureless fields adjacent to the second and third holes provide a clear idea to the discerning eye. There was actually a "golf course", a term which should be used very loosely, on the site before we started formally known as "The Sequatchie Valley Golf & Country Club," a moniker which was bastardized by the locals who commonly referred to it as "Squishy Valley," for obvious reasons. The raw land, which sits on heavy clay soils at the base of several mountains and rests in a floodplain, possesses all of .00055% fall from the west to the east end of the property, a percentage that equates to one foot over 600 yards.
I'll attach a few pre-construction photos of the seventh and eighth holes that give a representative example of what the property was like pre-construction. This is a photo of the approach to the old seventh green: (http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b564/bunkers79/7_pre_zpszcnh0mnq.jpg)(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f70o8bd8mt53f5o/IMG_0799.JPG?dl=0)
This photo shows the drainage ditch, which is now buried underneath the combined seventh & eighth fairways:(http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b564/bunkers79/8_pre_zpslj7qepeh.jpg)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3t8k8q7ra81ps86/IMG_0796.JPG?dl=0)
Obviously, surface draining to an open ditch was not an option. As you can imagine, architects have to work within the confines of a budget and upon the piece of land that they are given, and therefore, importing vast quantities of fill in order to achieve surface drainage was impossible. In the case of Sweetens Cove, we completely replaced every feature on a 72 acre site for one million dollars less than they spent at Sewanee, and the result of that process allows the current course to play as an inland links in spite of its inherent geographical limitations. I bring up the budget because our methods allowed the course to be constructed for an extraordinarily cheap price, a hard number that would've sunk the project had it been exceeded.
Prior to construction, the rain that hit the day before your visit would have rendered the course unplayable for at least two weeks, whereas, we had carts off of the path within 24 hours. Today at Sweetens Cove, drives were bouncing down the fairways as if they landed on a concrete cart path. In sum, we had to sacrifice surface drainage on the alter of achieving firm and fast playing characteristics, a decision that I would wholeheartedly make again.
-
Colorado Golf club: Short Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45694.msg1003600.html#msg1003600
-
you can only judge what is in front of you. What you do is flawed in my opinion because you automatically assume that another nine would be of lesser quality
Jon:
On the contrary, if another nine would have been as good or better than the current nine, I assume nearly any architect would have built it.
Our disagreement in a nutshell is about whether judging courses is strictly an additive effort. By one view, the more great holes a course has, the higher the ranking ... but poor holes would not detract from its rating. By another, it is the average quality of the holes [factoring in the bad and the good] that matters. Obviously, it's easier for a nine-hole course if you judge by the second system ... it's MUCH easier to have no bad holes if you only have to build nine ... but also obviously, if you judge by the first system, a nine-hole course would lose to any course with ten or more excellent holes. [And most of the world's great courses have more than ten excellent holes.]
My view is that it's some of both. I may give a pass to a course that has one bad hole [Cypress Point, 18th], but two or three bad holes are going to knock a course down at least a point on the Doak scale [Pebble Beach]. But by that logic, nine hole courses have to be rated on a 9-point scale; there just isn't as much variety as there is on a full 18, and variety is so important in my rating of a course that it's tough to overcome.
Perhaps you have a point at the lower end of the scale; there is not as much reason to dock a course from a 6 to a 5. It's either worth driving 100 miles to see, or it isn't.
-
Rob - Thanks for your response. I'll send you a pm so we don't take this thread off the rails.
-
Best 9 hole course I've played is the Sadaquada in Whitestown, NY. Shortish, small greens but very interesting. Opens with a straightforward par 4 over water and then two par 3s, one medium in length the other long. The 4th is a straight away brute of a par 4 and the 5th a reachable par 5. After another long par 4 to an elevated green, the par 5 7th is the most interesting hole on the course IMO. You'll need a bruising tee shot to reach in two, but most will need 3 shots. The 8th a dogleg right par 4 that has a green that runs away on your approach. The 9th is a long, uphill par 3 that actually plays as a par 4 with different sets of tees for 10-18.
-
you can only judge what is in front of you. What you do is flawed in my opinion because you automatically assume that another nine would be of lesser quality
Jon:
On the contrary, if another nine would have been as good or better than the current nine, I assume nearly any architect would have built it.
Our disagreement in a nutshell is about whether judging courses is strictly an additive effort.
Tom,
I am saying that you should judge what is there whether 9 holes or 12 or even 18. You seem to go with the assumption that 18 is a fixed requirement and that anything less than this number must be judged as of lesser value. There are many reasons for just building 9 holes but I guess the main one would be lack of land. I guess you might see judging as an additive effort but I must disagree.
Jon
-
Jon
While I have sympathy for your position, I think Tom is speaking in terms of recommendations via the CG (well I hope he is now going back to recos for his guide ratehr than using the numbers as way to rank). It is undoubtably true that most would not favour travelling to see a 9 holer so its natural to be conservative with a recommendation. In any case, Doak gave TS9 a 9...so you can't take him to task too much over this issue.
Ciao
-
Sean,
whilst I can see what you mean I do not think Tom is saying this. It might look as though he might be correct that making 18 good holes is harder than just nine at first glance. However, there are so many variables such as amount of land, budget and time spent that in the end I believe you can only judge what is actually there in front of you. I am not saying he is wrong, only that I do not entirely agree with his viewpoint.
Jon
-
Nine hole courses are just that, nine holes. It's futile to try and compare, or rate them against, eighteen hole courses.
They aren't 'half' an 18 hole course, and there were more of them in America until the construction boom in the late '50s/'60s.
-
They aren't 'half' an 18 hole course, and there were more of them in America until the construction boom in the late '50s/'60s.
I did not know that. Interesting. So circa 1930, there were more 9 holers than full courses?
Bob
-
Bob,
The GSR for Feb. 1959 says 3,308 nine hole'rs vs. 2,437 eighteens.
ed: avg. acreage per course - 9=61, 18=143
-
Jim -
Given the dearth of new course construction from the onset of the Great Depression through the decade after WWII (say 1930 to 1955), would it be a stretch to say there was a similar ratio of nine-holers to full courses at the end of the Golden Age?
Bob
-
Bob,
I'd say it's possible that the ratio may have even been slightly higher in '30. The number of courses in '59 (5,745) was nearly the same as in '30 (5,856), but the low came in '46 (4,800). The 1,000 or so new courses built between '46 and '59 could very well have favored 18 holes .
-
Jim -
It really is striking how many courses were lost in the Great Depression. Equally striking is how long it took to rebuild to 1930 levels after WWII.
In just the places I am familiar with, Athens GA had three courses in 1930. By 1935 only one remained. Augusta CC lost its Raynor 18 in 1935. Atlanta lost a Tillie course.
Bob
-
I was up in Dornoch last weekend and played two very enticing 9 holers, Portmahamock and Brahan. Neither are anywhere near "great" in strict GCA terms, but both must be played by any lover of the quirks of golf.
The latter is oor Jon Wiggett's labor of love, and I can only describe it as a course which must be match played (I guessed that the course record with a card in one's hand was 118 or so, and Jon did not disagree). It is a course which eschews any use of unnatural fertilizers, and schedules its development/maintenance in harmony with the breeding habits of the skylarks. The tees are 5'x10' slivers of occasionally mowed bits of mostly un-levelled pieces of ground. The fairways are well maintained (within the context of a very wet spring/summer) and mostly well defined vis a vis the deep fescue surrounds. On the tee, Jon advised me of the possible confusion of finding the 2nd green, but both Josie and I forgot what he said and hit our 2nd shots towards what was in fact the 3rd green. Good result, as we could never have made the carry to the real 2nd green. After that, the routing was fairly obvious, but the seocnd shots had to be played to greens that had two flags embedded in them. We wisely chose to play most holes aiming between the two, and putting/chipping out depending on which hole we wer closer to. The greens themselves could only be compared to the Himalayas putting green at St. Andrews. They putted smooth and well, but the micro-undulations made any putt problematic/WTF!. We loved that! As for the course: 1 is relatively short, but requires a wedge approach to a green split by two flags with a buried VW Beetle between them. I'd call it a par 6. 2 confuses you given that it is not clear at the tee whether or not to play the fairway to the right or the one to the left. As the one to the right is the 4th fairway, a drive there seduces you into aiming at what is in fact the 3rd green, but once you get there you see that a ptich to the real 2nd green is fine, as you could never have made the carry from the 2nd fairway to the 2nd green. The real 3 is a good short hole and the 4th a somewhat confusing but decenbt decent 4. The 5th is a 3/4 which played into the wind was a driver and a wedge. I lost my ball in a waterloggeed bunker, but Josie pitched to 20 feet and sunk a 7-time r/l/r/l/r/lr/l putt for a birdie. I'll never live that down... 6 is a brute of a hole, 440 up hill which, into a 20mph wind, meant driver, rescue, recuse for me. 7 is 475 and goes further up hill, which I think I hit with driver/rescue, but never found the ball. 8 goes slightly downhill to ~180. I hit a good driver 10 yards short, chili dipped a 7 iron and then sunk a 40 foot chip#2 going l/r/l/r/l/for a par. 18 is a relief, being downhill and downwind, and only 560 yards. I think if I ever played it into the wind with a card in my hand, I would still be playing it today. I highly recommend the course to anybody on this site who has a sense of adventure and wants to play a course to which he or she does not have to bring his or her A game, but rather some ganja or malt whisky and a love of nature.
Portmahamock, on the other hand is an oldie but goodie. Laid out ~100+ years ago by the (should be) legendary John Sutherland, and probably relatively untouched over the past century. Where it seems to have been touched is the 1st and 2nd holes, which are agricultural rather than Sutherlandish, and an attempt to make the course larger rather than better. After that, however, you are on a roller coaster ride through rough linksland, with heaving fairways and more heavingly seemingly unhittable/unstayable greens. Throughout these 7 holes you can see where old holes might have been, and as a bonus, you find that this is not at all a 9-holer but a 10- holer! The 5th/14th plays from a differnet green from a different tee. Locals play the course using both 5th tees on both tours and then ending on 7/16, which is conveniently by the clubhouse. With a little bit more money and a little bit more understanding of its history and TLC, this could be one of the greatest 9-holers in the world.
Rich
PS--this was the first time I have played Portmahamock in the 38 years I have been to Dornoch, and I will play this course again and again until I die.
rfg
-
I've not played Royal Worlington yet, but I don't think I've played a better 9-holer than Reigate Heath, though St. Olaf runs it close.
Here are a few pics to whet your appetite. It's hard to advocate nipping in to Reigate in preference to some of the established classics in the south of England, but you'll be glad you did, especially if you pick a warm, smoky summer evening like we did.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/DSCN2077_zpsahu3ujtr.jpg)
Green 1, with the clubhouse and windmill atop the hill.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/DSCN2098_zpsefpj7a8t.jpg)
Par 3 6th with the obligatory black Labrador
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/DSCN2099_zpsnr0uxfqm.jpg)
Short par 4 7th tees over the 6th green
-
Robin interesting photo’s you’ve selected. In the Confidential Guide before last Tom Doak singled the course out for potential greatness but criticised the holes over the road (6, & &8?). I know they’ve been redone since and I don’t believe he’s been back.
So how good are the new holes and have you played a better 9 holer?
I have visited and walked the holes on the Clubhouse side and was intrigued by the intelligent use of alternate tees second time around. Would definitely be up for a game.
-
Tony
I'm a child of the 9-holer, back up in the Pennines and the north-east of Scotland and though I've played my fair share, most of them were pretty rustic by all accounts.
Reigate Heath is the nicest one I've played and yes, they have a good selection of alternative tees for the second lap.
The first three or four holes are IMO the best of the bunch and by comparison the ones over the road are weaker, primarily because they are more linear in challenge. That said, the pictured 7th was one of my favourites, from an aesthetic angle. The narrow, uphill tree lined 8th is arguably the weakest of the bunch. Too close to the main road for my liking.
Definitely up for an evening or weekend afternoon round.
I've got a full photo tour ready to go. Just need to get my arse in gear to write it up.