Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Will Lozier on July 28, 2015, 03:25:05 PM
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Having been lucky enough to play Lookout Mountain for the 2nd and 3rd time recently, I am still scratching my head at how difficult the greens are to read. Many putts look like they break significantly one way and move the same amount in the opposite direction. Being on top of a mountain rather than the side, like many courses in New England, makes these the hardest I've ever come across to read correctly for both line and speed as uphill and downhill putts can be misjudged badly as well. Local knowledge at Lookout Mountain is more significant than any course I can think of. What other courses present a similar challenge?
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Will,
This is funny, I read the subject title and thought to myself I am going to click and post "Lookout Mountain". The 16th green still blows my mind overtime I putt on it.
Mark
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Will,
I agree completely. It's a 5 shot advantage atleast being a Homer there.
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Oakland Hills and Oakmont were the hardest for me.
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I've not played at Lookout Mountain and in fact my resume of courses played in that sort of terrain is rather limited.
But most recently I spent a week in Harlech playing at Royal St. Davids and it was a similarly confounding experience. What makes it doubly so is the fact that, by and large, the greens are Harlech are of the somewhat flattish links type low-profile surfaces. There are some quite contoured ones but I've never had such trouble reading basically flat greens and I did a few of the holes there.
The situation of Royal St. Davids is unusual in that you have no view of the sea due to a really large series of dunes separating the links from the beach. But on the opposite side of the course a truly enormous hillside looms over you at nearly every moment of the round. Somehow being on flattish land with rather abrupt high dunes in one direction and that great sloping hillside in the other seemed to leave me with a perpetual feeling of vertigo every time I tried to get a "big picture" view of a green.
Even after several rounds there I was reduced to pretty much taking a narrow, blinkered view of the stretch of green between my ball and the hole. On normal courses I find it best to do a more holistic read of a putt, even as I'm walking up onto the green initially, rather than focusing too intently on trying to discern slopes and contours near the hole. At Harlech I had to stick to the little picture because the big picture was overwhelming.
I actually enjoyed putting on the few obviously sloping greens there because the breaks were obvious regardless of the surroundings.
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Will,
This is funny, I read the subject title and thought to myself I am going to click and post "Lookout Mountain". The 16th green still blows my mind overtime I putt on it.
Mark
Holes 3, 7, 15 & 16 at LMGC are some of the toughest greens I have ever tried to learn. No matter how many times I play there, they always get me one way or another.
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Like Lookout Mountain, just about any Colorado mountain/foothill course presents this challenge. The toughest of these in my experience are Broadmoor East/West, Hiwan and the Red Sky Ranch courses.
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It helps to look at the putt from both sides at Lookout Mountain more than my experience at other courses.
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I would definitely agree on Lookout Mountain. I have played a ton of mountain top golf, but from the few times that I have the entire course usually falls in one direction. Lookout Mountain did not have this easy crutch to fall back on. In my one trip around the course I hit a lot of putts 20 feet by the hole. Even when I tried to walk the line and feel the slope in my feet, I still misjudged the speed frequently. Maybe wit ha few more rounds there I could figure out a better technique. Or maybe I would just have to memorize where the slopes deceive my eye.
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Kapalua perplexed the heck out of me. Oakmont humbled me. Cherry Hills flummoxed me.
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Agreed that Lookout Mountain has some very deceptive slopes that go away from the general slope of the property.
For me though Westward Ho! or Royal North Devon has greens that have unique microundulations. Because they don't top dress those greens there is no overall homogeneous slope on every green; completely baffling!
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The Pete Dye course at French Lick was impossible for me to read, it looks like the Sr. PGA guys thought the same thing.
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I've not played at Lookout Mountain and in fact my resume of courses played in that sort of terrain is rather limited.
But most recently I spent a week in Harlech playing at Royal St. Davids and it was a similarly confounding experience. What makes it doubly so is the fact that, by and large, the greens are Harlech are of the somewhat flattish links type low-profile surfaces. There are some quite contoured ones but I've never had such trouble reading basically flat greens and I did a few of the holes there.
The situation of Royal St. Davids is unusual in that you have no view of the sea due to a really large series of dunes separating the links from the beach. But on the opposite side of the course a truly enormous hillside looms over you at nearly every moment of the round. Somehow being on flattish land with rather abrupt high dunes in one direction and that great sloping hillside in the other seemed to leave me with a perpetual feeling of vertigo every time I tried to get a "big picture" view of a green.
Even after several rounds there I was reduced to pretty much taking a narrow, blinkered view of the stretch of green between my ball and the hole. On normal courses I find it best to do a more holistic read of a putt, even as I'm walking up onto the green initially, rather than focusing too intently on trying to discern slopes and contours near the hole. At Harlech I had to stick to the little picture because the big picture was overwhelming.
I actually enjoyed putting on the few obviously sloping greens there because the breaks were obvious regardless of the surroundings.
Been a few years since I played RStD and I doubt there are any major changes since then but it's just another links course with all the indicators there to read a putt. The castle looks great towering over you but it's never influencing anything on the course.
Distant objects/horizons may help set up your levels and perspective but the only thing that ever matters is looking at the ball to the hole!
Sounds like I'd enjoy reading the greens at Lookout Mtn though.
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Like Lookout Mountain, just about any Colorado mountain/foothill course presents this challenge. The toughest of these in my experience are Broadmoor East/West, Hiwan and the Red Sky Ranch courses.
At the Broadmoor we figured out that all putts break away from the bells, even if they don't. I never saw so many putts break uphill, but the location of the carillon was very helpful.
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I would say in general greens on mountain golf courses are deceptively difficult to read as the exaggeration of the slope on the rest of the course is so great that the green all seem to look rather flat in comparison and they trick the brain. That being said. I don't recall ever having difficulty reading the greens at Lookout Mountain.
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Not really on topic but...
At my former club there was a guy in my usual group who was a infamous head case. Off the course, bright guy. But for 3-1/2 hours on a weekend morning he would get stuck halfway between crazy and stupid.
He's plumb bobbing an 8-foot par putt and asks his partner, "Does this break more than I think it does?". Moment of silence. Partner says, "Well, I don't how much you think it breaks". He says, "Exactly. Thanks." Then he steps up and leaves it three feet short of the hole.
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There was a course in Maui, impossible to read. Another course in a valley in Southern California, I remember walking up to the head pro and saying, "okay, I give up, what's the secret to reading these greens?" he responded that they r unpredictable
On top of the mountain Cordellia I think and Red SKY IN VAIL, BREAKS DEFIED GRAVITY
Pebble Beach was no picnic in the old days with heavy poa
My one trip around Oakmont was a disaster
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I would rank Lookout ahead of Oakmont. It's one thing when the putt breaks 10 times more than you think it should, but when it breaks the opposite way every single hole......
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I haven't been to Lookout Mountain, but the toughest greens I've ever tried to read are those of its cousin, Yale. For all the huge contours, there are tons of little micro-breaks that wreak havoc on shorter, seemingly makeable putts, all the time.
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Potentially not the most difficult greens to read but some of the toughest that I've ever played have to be Ross' greens at Hyde Park CC in Cincinnati, most short putts tend to break a lot, with a lot of speed
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A lot of the greens on older courses in the UK are tough to read having small, subtle breaks that are just enough to take the ball off the read line. Dewsbury had 3 greens (3rd, 7th and 14th) which looked to break on way but in fact went the other. Local knowledge is a wonderful thing :)
Jon
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Interesting thread. My experience is that the most difficult greens to read are the oldest ones, as they are rife with micro-undulations created over time by mother nature rather than an architect and/or shaper. Because most young greens are designed/shaped/maintained to a perfectely executed plan, an experienced eye can see the plan and putt accordingly. Applebrook and Pacific Dunes in 2001 come to mind.
To me, part of the greatness of Dornoch is the fact that short putts gang aft agley. I once hit my tee shot on the 2nd to 8 feet or so, uphill, and hit a good putt that never threatened the hole. My good friend and playing partner, the great, laconic and sadly late Jim Cunnigham, said:
"Only a long time member of Dornoch like you could have missed that putt."
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Rihc
I agree with you. Many of these old courses have such subtle borrows that have devloped over time that it can be downright frustrating to miss consistently miss putts which don't break more than 4 inches. I especially struggle with sloping greens that are found on hills. Even courses I know well such as Kington are difficult because speed is so important with slope and the speed is never consistent. One other course I struggle on is Beau Desert. Part of the reason for this is the subsidence which has created a visual disonance on several greens.
New courses may take a few plays, but the big bold undukations can be figured out fairly quickly compared to some of the old courses.
Ciao
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Greens in dappled sunlight, especially if there's a bit of wind moving the branches.
Bigger slopes are obvious but 'flat' greens are never really 'flat'.
When there's a strong wind - it's surprising how much a putt will move in the wind.
And as green speed gets quicker all of the above increase.
atb
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The Pete Dye course at French Lick was impossible for me to read, it looks like the Sr. PGA guys thought the same thing.
I agree with Matt. French Lick's Dye Course greens look like they all break a decent amount, but most of the putts move very little. I used my caddie on all 18 greens each time I played and my batting average for correct reads on my part was well below .500.
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I haven't played it but have heard Northland CC in Duluth is very difficult to figure out -- very hilly terrain next to a huge body of water on Ross greens
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Sean and a few others have brought up subtle slopes as a challenge in reading greens, where as I interpreted the original post on Lookout being about macro slopes. I'm not sure how to really compare the difficulty of each, other than saying both can be very frustrating.
The old seaside course with tough micro slopes make it hard to hole those short and medium length putts. Lookout has the toughest macro slopes I've ever played. Never have I been more hopeless from 30 feet. I can't remember many courses with very tough micro slopes because my putting is usually not reliable enough to claim a misread caused the missed putt.
Maybe a more interesting question, are there any course that have very tough micro (subtle) and macro (large) slopes? As I said, Lookout was tough from 30 feet or more, but I didn't have a problem reading the short ones since it was fairly obvious which way the 5 footer was going. From my experience, these two types of greens are almost mutually exclusive, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone here knows or a course that challenges both types of green reading.
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When you play Baltusrol it is an axiom that the upper course breaks away from the "mountain". They are still difficult greens to read.
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Joe,
I've found many classic (meaning not rebuilt) greens are very tough from both a micro and macro perspective. It seems like the golden age greens utilized the broader topography well, and maybe it's just the greens have settled over time or somethign to that effect. But older greens seem to have almost bizarre micro contours that can push the ball either direction.
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I haven't played it but have heard Northland CC in Duluth is very difficult to figure out -- very hilly terrain next to a huge body of water on Ross greens
Northland's greens are very hard to read correctly on your first play.
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I would agree with that Josh. The older course have more subtlety and it is probably a product of how the ground has settled over a century, rather than a conscious effort during construction. I can't think of a modern course that has had much in the way of tough micro undulations, which tells me that they are tough/impossible to create.
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Lookout Mountain are the hardest greens to read that I have ever seen. Playing there with other golf course architects solidifies that for me as we often didn't believe what the ball was doing to the point where after two or three people in the group misread the putt, the fourth could sometimes not bring himself to putt the ball differently. At least a 5 or 6 shot advantage to the member.
Lester
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I am not the best green reader, but far far from the worst ....
After 2 rounds at the Cascades (Flynn mountain course in Virginia) ... it might take me another 8 to 10 rounds not get fooled by, in my perception, the counter intuitive nature of many green complexes. The basic roll and break is always straight forward, but there is enough hard to read counter or altered slopes to make mid distance putting kind of embarrassing.
Lester, kind of the same challenge at Ballyhack.
Maybe it is just mountain courses.
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The Bayonet Course in Seaside CA had some of the most difficult reads for me. After a few holes of terrible, sometimes backwards reads, I was just completely confused. Uphill/downhill couldn't tell... I was reading 5 feet of break left to right, went five feet the other way...
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To me, part of the greatness of Dornoch is the fact that short putts gang aft agley. I once hit my tee shot on the 2nd to 8 feet or so, uphill, and hit a good putt that never threatened the hole. My good friend and playing partner, the great, laconic and sadly late Jim Cunnigham, said:
"Only a long time member of Dornoch like you could have missed that putt."
Perfect.
Bob
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Best green reading experience I ever had was at Winged Foot with Neil Regan who graciously hosted myself and Tommy Naccarato.
I remember one putt on the famous Par 3 10th hole that Tommy and I couldn't see for the life of us. But, then Neil explained:
"Don't worry. Ninety percent of our members don't get it either".
Very reassuring!
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The Maxwell greens I have experienced (Old Town, a few holes at Veenker and Crystal Downs) give me the most fits. There are two breaks on almost every putt.
At least on mountainside courses such as Northland or in Colorado you know what direction the slope is going to push the ball.
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Hardest greens to read? For me, TOC, hands down! The ball rolls true there, and I putted where I aimed last time I played but took 42 putts! Only one was longer 60 feet - and while that one was a ridiculous 150+ feet so a three putt would be understandable, I four putted...
Drove me nuts even five footers I couldn't read correctly. Didn't have that problem at other links courses, but happened to me both times I played TOC.
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When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds. He put the high point and low point on it. After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break. It actually worked pretty well. One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green. Weirdest thing I've ever seen. Absolutely loved the course.
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Lookout Mountain are the hardest greens to read that I have ever seen. Playing there with other golf course architects solidifies that for me as we often didn't believe what the ball was doing to the point where after two or three people in the group misread the putt, the fourth could sometimes not bring himself to putt the ball differently. At least a 5 or 6 shot advantage to the member.
I was low round of all the architects by quite a bit. The last membership before my current one was a course built on the side of an escarpment. So I asked someone in the shop "where does everything break to or from" and he gave me a point on the mountain to use. I had no three putts and made two long ones that day. I always trusted the point on the mountain and ignored "my eyes".
On large elevations you can no longer see grade on greens because your perception can't work in that extreme a setting. Find the mountain ...
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When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds. He put the high point and low point on it. After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break. It actually worked pretty well. One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green. Weirdest thing I've ever seen. Absolutely loved the course.
Will,
Did he tell you or did you find that, when in doubt, putts should break towards the second green?
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I don't recall ever having difficulty reading the greens at Lookout Mountain.
Ben,
This is a statement so far from what I've experienced and have heard from every other player who's played LM. I find it hard to believe that ANYONE has never found those greens to be challenging to read on some level.
I am curious to know what your best putting round at LM looked like?
Cheers
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The Maxwell greens I have experienced (Old Town, a few holes at Veenker and Crystal Downs) give me the most fits. There are two breaks on almost every putt.
At least on mountainside courses such as Northland or in Colorado you know what direction the slope is going to push the ball.
That's interesting...I've only play Crystal, but I thought the greens were fairly easy to read. Now actually putting the ball in the hole is a different story.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Prairie Dunes yet. I thought they were very tough the first time around the course. However after playing the course a couple of times I started to get the feel of them.
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I've always found greens on mountain courses very difficult to read. Subleties can often be much bigger movements
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I agree it has to be mountain and hilly sites. A few good players here in DFW claim Fazio greens at Dallas National are very hard to read, and Faz greens usually aren't that tough. I think the hilly site has a lot to do with it, but could be wrong, as he has put a few subtle slopes in there as well. I have mentioned the 5th before, where Trevino complains that a small ridge of 4-5% in the middle of the green can make it virtually impossible to get a chip close to any pin beyond it from where you are, on an otherwise 2% slope green.
I have measured many greens, and in hilly sites, for construction practicality, catching up to grade faster, natural drainage outlets, etc., you almost have to follow the grade, and usually put more slope in it than you normally would.
Visually, a flat green looks like it breaks toward the mountain. Even a green sloping a normal 2-3% in the natural downhill direction may look canted the other way. And, in most cases, the hillier the site, the more the side slope to then natural downhill slope is. I have used my digital level to measure such slopes, and inevitably, what looks like a 2% slope to the right can end up being 6-7%.
So, even when you get the direction right, you usually vastly underestimate the break.
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Well said Jeff. Do we have records to substantiate Ian's claim of low architect at Lookout Mountain? Hmmmm.... Even if not, no three putts is an incredible feat on those greens. Good stuff Ian.
Lester
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When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds. He put the high point and low point on it. After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break. It actually worked pretty well. One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green. Weirdest thing I've ever seen. Absolutely loved the course.
Will,
Did he tell you or did you find that, when in doubt, putts should break towards the second green?
Will,
He gave me a map of the course, and he drew two arrows on it. One at the high pointing towards the low and one at the low pointing off the map. I just started to look for the low point after the second hole because putts didn't seem to be breaking the way I saw.
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The caddies at ANGC say you don't read those greens you remember them.
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Some of the greens at Greywalls are really difficult to read. Especially 7 and 18. On a micro level, just looking at the green surface, they appear to be either level or break back to front. That bias is reinforced by the fact that most greens just about everywhere have at least a slight back to front cant. But if you take into account your surroundings, and realize that from tee to green the holes are very downhill, you'll find out that what looks like an uphill putt is really a downhill putt. On average, Mike DeVries' greens have a ton of internal contour, but it's the really subtle breaks on some of his holes that can be diabolical.
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It would be interesting to see how the typical Raynor greens changed to reflect the contours. Maybe the Redan is really flat to look sloped back left, or the back tier of a Biarizts or Double plateau are actually level or below the front their? Played there, but seriously can't recall.
Lester,
See above about any recall of that day with ASGCA. My best memory is playing with Ress (always a treat) in his first round back from shoulder surgery. On the first tee, waxing eloquent about how great it is to be back, how great golf is......misses a 3 footer for par on the first green and blurts out "I HATE this game!" How typical of all of us. I think it was half serious and half in jest, but it was a funny contrast, and I have used it often.....sometimes without the ongoing set up from the first tee on.
Back on topic, we have discussed this before, and I touched on it above, but sans a steep slope to mess up perspective, on flatland ground the hardest green to read is one that has some short of up or down change of slope/grade midway on a putt. They are easier to account for right as the ball leaves the putter, or dies near the hole, but are pretty darned hard to judge speed if midway through a decent length putt.
Tripp Davis and Justin Leonard feel so strongly about this that at Old American, they told me most greens have spines almost cutting an "X" through the green at some angle. Unless you are in the right quadrant, you have a change of grade somewhere in your putt, accentuating the need to get close for birdie.
Frankly, I have always thought gently rolling throughout creates the mythical "proportional" challenge of making a 20 foot put about twice as hard to make as a 10 foot putt. I would think on average, the mid grade theory would make the challenge substantially greater, and I wonder if it really needs to be?
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Hardest greens for me to read are at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes. The fescue greens create a camo pattern to the greens that I find adds to the difficulty of reading the breaks. I kept thinking there had to be some pull towards the ocean but found that to be unreliable amongst the dunes. I remember playing Makena in Maui and the assistant pro pointed out ot us before the round that all putts break to Molokini Atoll. He was invariably correct. Whenever someone asks me my opinion as to the break on their putt I usually still reply that it breaks toward Molokini. Yes - I usually get at best an eyeroll in response.
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Visually, a flat green looks like it breaks toward the mountain. Even a green sloping a normal 2-3% in the natural downhill direction may look canted the other way. And, in most cases, the hillier the site, the more the side slope to then natural downhill slope is. I have used my digital level to measure such slopes, and inevitably, what looks like a 2% slope to the right can end up being 6-7%.
So, even when you get the direction right, you usually vastly underestimate the break.
I think the reason I haven't had such problems in hilly/mountain courses is because I plumb bob everything. While I'm the first to admit that technique is not without its limitations, without a doubt it quickly exposes that sort of visual deception. Can also be useful to do from the side if you aren't sure of the amount of downhill/uphill slope that is present.
One downside is that I've been doing it so long it has become ingrained as a habit. It isn't part of my preshot routine, as I usually do it before it is my turn to putt - basically the same as everyone else crouching down behind the ball to read the green. Something just feels 'off' if I putt without having done it so I have to do a quick token plumb bob even for putts where I'm certain of the line, such as if someone has just putted the exact same putt before me. ::)
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The hardest time I think I ever had reading greens was at Rock Creek Cattle Company. It got to the point where I wasn't even sure on what the 4 footers would do. If I remember correctly the way putts broke often were not in relation to the general lay of the land - or at least that was what I thought while trying to figure them out.